WEBVTT - External Exam - Tattoos and Forensics with Dr. Michelle Miranda 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:09.600 Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy. 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:21.040 Hi, guys, welcome to this week's episode of Mother Knows 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:25.159 Death and the External Exam with Doctor Michelle Miranda. A 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.840 few weeks ago a Mother Knows Death, Maria and I 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:31.080 were discussing a case in the news where there was 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:33.800 a woman who was killed thirty one years ago and 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:38.320 she was recently identified by her tattoo. So, of course, 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:40.920 the first person that I thought of talking to was 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:45.000 doctor Miranda because she is a forensic scientist who is 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:51.839 an expert in the identification and the forensics of tattoos. So, Hi, Michelle, 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:52.480 how are you doing? 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:56.160 H good? I'm doing right well, how are you great? 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:58.720 Thanks so much for being here today. I think this 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:01.240 is going to be an excellent interview and everybody's going 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:04.840 to love everything that we're talking about today. But before 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.360 we get started with the case that we were discussing 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:10.520 in the news a few weeks ago, I wanted everyone 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:13.520 to know a little bit about your background and how 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:16.000 you became a pioneer in this field. 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:21.440 You got it. So, I was originally a biopre med 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:24.640 major in college. I knew pretty much my whole life. 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:26.800 I wanted to be a doctor, and I wanted to 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:29.800 go into the medical field, so that was like an 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:33.000 easy kind of path to get me into, you know, 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:39.839 a program in bio. And it was my senior year 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:44.520 and I attended a lecture on campus. And I recommend 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:48.560 anybody like that is in school or has kids in school. 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:51.480 That's like one of the things you get outside the 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:55.080 classroom is like attending talks when they have like guest speakers, 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:59.080 and so that for me was awesome because the guest 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.800 speaker actually was from a medical examiner's office, and she 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:06.320 came to talk about the eme's office, and she came 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:09.919 to talk about friends of DNA analysis and all this stuff. 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:12.680 And I'll preface this by saying this was way before CSI. 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:15.120 I won't tell you all how old I am, but 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:18.240 it was before CSI. But so I sat and I 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:21.079 was like, oh my god, this is like amazing, this 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:24.320 is so interesting to me. I'm like I love this. 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:29.440 And I had, you know, taking like genetics and taking 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:32.480 more bio and so I had a knowledge of this, 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:35.480 but like when you actually see it outside of a classroom, 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:39.400 outside of a textbook, like that real world, you know application, 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:42.160 it just can make so much of a difference, and 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:44.480 so I ran up to her after and I was like, 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:46.920 I love this. I want to learn more. Can I 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:50.200 intern with you? Can I do something? And she was 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:54.840 like yeah, sure. So my senior year, my last semester, 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.519 while everyone was out partying and having like a great time, 0:02:57.720 --> 0:02:59.880 I was this idiot that decided I was going to 0:02:59.919 --> 0:03:02.600 do internship. I decided I was going to take on 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:06.120 another minor. So I was already majoring in bio and 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:09.520 then minoring in chemistry, so I added a minor in 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.639 criminal justice because I wanted to learn about the criminal 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:16.360 justice aspect because of the forensic realm. And so my 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:18.880 senior year, I was going from the Bronx where I 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:22.560 was at Manhattan College, and I was taking the bus 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:25.160 all the way to the Medical Examiner's office in New 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:27.160 York City. So I was on the bus for like 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:31.279 hours to get there to go sit with this individual, 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:35.480 to learn about the lab, to learn about forensic DNA analysis, 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:38.920 to help her with her samples. And so it was 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.800 a really awesome experience that drew me into like this 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:46.200 whole forensic realm, and so I kind of changed my 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:50.280 course from there instead of you know, taking exams or 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:56.440 continuing to take MCAT study exams or practice exams. I 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.440 decided that I wanted to get my master's in forensic science. 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:01.880 And so what I did was I ended up applying 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:05.080 to John Jay and their master's program and forensic science 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:09.720 and kind of put my like medical plan on hold, 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:12.720 you know, thinking that I would go for pathology. So 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:16.520 now I'm like, Okay, I'll do forensic pathology. And then 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:22.479 when I started experiencing the master's program and learning about 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:26.080 trace evidence and traces, you know, like the hares, the fibers, 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:30.479 glass peed, but also like the microscopy, the spectroscopy, the 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:32.720 way that like you analyze these things and can get 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.640 so much information from a small sample, I was like, 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:38.599 this is it. This is for me. And so from 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:42.039 there I started working at the NYPV as a criminalist, 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:44.560 and then I decided to go back to my doctorate 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:47.000 and that kind of led me down the path be tattoos. 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:50.840 That's that's so great, And I love a couple of 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:53.599 different things that you said. Number one, you have to 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:56.320 keep this in mind because you and I are around 0:04:56.320 --> 0:05:00.200 the same age. We won't say, but we I kind 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.400 of started off. I guess this was like in the nineties, 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.479 right when like you started going to college and everything 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:09.240 the same with me. And it's like we didn't have 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:12.680 all these things that kids have today, like TV shows 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:15.640 that talked about these different jobs, especially once that women 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:18.760 could do. And also we didn't have the Internet to 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:22.880 find out about it. And it's cool that you had 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.320 this lecture with this lady and then you just I 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:28.880 think this is really important for anyone, Like just you 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:33.120 approached her and showed your eagerness and just said I 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:36.520 love this and like help me figure out how to 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:39.400 do this with my life kind of thing. And I 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.760 think that's like really important and awesome. And how you 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:46.880 got that awesome opportunity at the Medical Examiner's Office which 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:50.000 then kind of shaped where you went on from there. 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:53.919 So you said that you were working at the for 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:56.680 the NYPD crime Lab, and I also know that you 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.760 worked for the Medical Examiner's Office too at some point. 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:04.120 So can you explain to everyone the difference between like 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:09.159 doing forensics and crime scene stuff at the police department 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.400 versus the Medical Examiner and how the two of those 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:15.360 different teams work together to help solve crimes. 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:19.800 Sure, So one of the things I just want to 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:23.520 add is like it was important to hustle, like I 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:28.560 did not take like a very traditional route because when 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.760 I went to the NYPD, I stayed there for a 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:34.760 while and then I decided to go back for my doctorate. 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:36.800 And then while I was going to my doctorate is 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:39.560 when I just wanted to see as much as I could, 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:42.839 and so I took all these opportunities that came to me, 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:49.039 like working as a medical photographer forensic photographer during autopsies, 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:53.080 and then also working as like a you know, part 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:57.719 time death investigator. So that was one of the keys 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:00.920 to kind of me being a generalist from scientists, which 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.039 is someone who has like this broad knowledge and I 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.360 use like the cool crime scene to the core kind 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:09.120 of ideal. And it was experiencing all of these different 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:12.560 things and from doing that, not only did I see where, 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:16.760 like you're asking, things are interconnected, right and everybody's trying 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:19.840 to work together to solve a crime or work a case, 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:23.040 but also where there's disconnects or and forensic science we 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.400 talk about like silos about how like there tends to 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:29.480 not be a lot of really good communication between say 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:34.360 law enforcement, the crime lab, the medical examiner, and you know, 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:38.520 the prosecutor the defense attorney. Right, then everything can be 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:42.400 kind of segmented, but in the end, we all are 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:46.000 trying to work together towards a common goal. And so 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:49.600 at the NYPD working in the crime lab, you're in 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:53.840 the crime lab. So you're working a full day, eight 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:56.360 hours in a crime lab. Like a lot of people 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:59.440 think that they'll be running around at crime scenes in 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:03.480 you know, and driving hours and carrying a firearm and 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:06.720 you know, slamming someone up gets a wall and asking 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:10.280 them to confess. You know, it's not like the TV shows. 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:13.200 So you have like your crime scene people and in 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:17.520 New York City, crime scene or sworn detectives, so there's 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.200 not a lot of civilians running around at crime scenes. 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:23.480 When you look at the way we're structured in New York. 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:26.520 Then you have the crime lab, which is a mixture 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.800 of civilians and law enforcement depending on where in the 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.040 lab that they work. And so there I was in 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:35.880 the trace unit. So that was again looking at different 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:43.120 types of traces from gunshot residue to hairs fibers, glass paint, 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.760 to chemical unknowns. Something was thrown in a person's face. 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:50.280 We don't know what this is kind of stuff, so 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:54.200 it was a mixture of everything. And then you have 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:58.120 other parts of the lab as well, like firearms drug analysis. Right, 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:00.480 So everybody's kind of structured doing that thing in a 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.640 crime lab, and you pretty much stay confined to the lab. 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:07.120 I was lucky enough in that my first area of 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.720 expertise was gunshot residue, so I happened to get involved 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:14.280 in a lot of interesting cases with shootings, with police 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.400 involved shootings, and so I actually was lucky in that 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.080 on a couple occasions, I was able to go to 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:22.920 crime scenes or I was able to see like if 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:25.800 there was a vehicle involved. But it's not very typical 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:28.960 of the criminalist in the crime lab to kind of 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:32.920 venture out all over the place. Then you have separate 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:36.280 you know, and again mostly talk about New York. Separate 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:41.280 is the medical Examiner's office, and so they're doing you have, 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:44.719 you know, the pathologists in the autopsy suite. You have 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:48.400 the toxicologists that are getting samples looking at whatever drugs 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:51.760 there or covering or poisons from the body. And then 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.920 you have the DNA people, right, the criminalists that are 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:58.880 doing DNA analysis. And again it's very siloaed, it's very separate, 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:01.559 So like a piece of Eviden and may travel from 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:06.240 the crime scene to the NYPD lab for trace analysis, 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:10.280 then over to the OCME for DNA analysis. Right, so 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:13.240 everybody's kind of working separately but maybe working with the 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:17.600 same type of evidence. And then usually the detective assigned 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:21.040 to the case and or you know, the prosecutor are 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:23.120 the ones that kind of put that picture together and 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:25.920 kind of work to reconstruct what may have happened based 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:28.080 upon what they saw along this whole chain. 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:32.600 I think that's it's important because I do hear a 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:36.440 lot of people that are now, you know, the kids 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:38.679 that are growing up now have access to all these 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:42.480 TV shows, including like Forensic Files and then the fake 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:45.000 ones like CSI and things like that, but also just 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:48.920 the Internet and just everything that's going on. And I 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.080 think a lot of people don't know that there is 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:54.400 a difference between the medical aspect of it and more 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:57.720 of like the science aspect of it. So if people 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:01.720 want to want to go to school for forensics, they 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:04.720 may sign up and think that they're doing autopsies and stuff, 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:08.240 but that wasn't really part of training for you, right 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:11.240 as a forensic scientist, right, it was more of like 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:15.120 the actual looking under a microscope and doing chemical analysis 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:17.360 and all these like actual lab tists. 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:21.680 Yeah, so forensic science and even that buzzword forensics is 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:22.600 very sexy now. 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:22.880 Right. 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:26.680 So back when I started, there were like three really 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:29.880 well known universities that had forensic science programs on the 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:33.640 East Coast. Now with these they're everywhere, right, So you 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:37.080 get individuals all walks of life just kind of starting 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:41.640 these forensics programs all over. And there's a really big 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:47.520 difference what I recommend when I am asked for my advice, 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:51.800 I suggest to people to get a science degree, not 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:55.920 even to get a forensic science degree, because exactly like 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.160 you're saying, you may go for a forensic science education 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:02.960 and yeah, you may get some science, you know, but 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:06.480 you're getting like then you get like a Crensen investigation class. Right, 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.120 most people don't go on to you know, do crime 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:12.600 scene investigation, and most a different story for other day. 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:16.800 My feelings on crime scene investigation because you're really not 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.320 learning the skills involved in crimes and investigation that help 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:25.319 you to think properly, you know, critically, think, problem solve, reconstruct. 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:28.200 You're basically, you know, crimes and investigation classes are like 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:30.760 here's how you pick things up and wear protective equipment. 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:36.080 So the problem is if you get like a forensic 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.600 science education is you may and again this is my 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:43.160 own opinion, depending on the program, depending on the educators, 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:48.199 you may not get like good science education, right. And also, 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.640 as you're saying too, if I have a degree in biology, 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.199 premit right, and I go work in a crime lab 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:56.080 and I hate it, I just hate it. I do 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:57.679 it for a couple of years, I'm like, Okay, I 0:12:57.720 --> 0:12:59.240 thought it was going to be like TV. It's not 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.880 like TV. On miserrabele. If I have that biodegree, I 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:06.480 can go take that biodegree and work a lot of places, 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:08.840 or decide to go to medical school, designed to go 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:12.400 to graduate school, whatever. When you have a forensic science degree, 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:15.600 you may not have those same opportunities, right, So you 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:17.160 want to go work in a lab and they're like, oh, 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:19.120 you have a forensic science degree, or looking someone with 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:22.520 a biodegree or with a chemistry degree, right, especially if 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:24.560 they look at your coursework and they say, hey, half 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:28.600 of your forensic science classes are social sciences like forensic 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.640 psychology and brands and investigation. You know, so you may 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.640 not be viewed as having a real degree in the 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:38.880 natural sciences. And so that's one of the you know, 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:42.800 sort of weaknesses that I identified, because you know, regulating 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:46.160 forensic science programs, you know, can be a little iffy. 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:48.880 So yeah, I mean it's going to be very difficult 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:51.600 for someone that graduates with a forensic science degree to 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:56.600 potentially get into medical school down the line if they 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:59.160 decide they hate forensic science to the crime lab, whether 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:01.840 they want to do pathology or something else. And I 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.560 feel like you have more opportunities if you say that 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:08.040 bio or chemistry degree and then kind of switch your way. 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.640 But definitely they're different, you know, going for forensic science. 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:14.360 And I've had students ask me this before. They're like, oh, 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.760 how long until I get to do autopsies? How many 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:20.120 classes do I have to take before I could do autopsis? 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.480 And You're just like, oh my god, Like it breaks 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:25.000 your heart, you know, because you're like, no, this is 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.240 not that's not what's happening. But yeah, there are distinct 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:33.200 differences between the career paths, and so I tell people 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:35.600 take the forensic away from whatever you want to do, 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:40.840 whether it's pathology, science, psychology, remove the word forensic and 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:43.960 just what does it take to be a psychologist, a scientist, 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:48.000 a pathologist, and then you know, look at what these 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:51.800 jobs entail, look at what the career path entails, because 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:55.600 the forensic is sort of the application of these sciences 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:57.280 to criminal justice problems. 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:01.120 Yeah, I agree with you there, it's a huge disconnect 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:04.040 between like what the jobs actually are and then what 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:07.080 kids are going to college for. And that happened in 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:10.560 my program too, Like I went for a master's and 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.320 as a pathologist assistant, but I knew what the job 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:16.120 was because I was already working in the hospital, So 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:18.720 I knew when I graduated, like what I was going 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.240 to be doing. But so many girls that were in 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:25.360 my program didn't even know what they would really be 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:29.840 doing as a job, and some of them really don't 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:31.600 want to do it as a job. But since it's 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:34.360 so specific, it's like you can't get a job anywhere 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:37.520 else doing any Like if you get a master's as 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:40.200 a PA, you can't go be a nurse or anything. 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:42.240 You'd have to go back to school all over again. 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:46.360 So sometimes a broader degree works better sometimes. 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:49.080 Yeah, And that's I mean, I always you know, said 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:53.160 like this is my opinion. I would rather see you 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:56.240 go get a degree in biology, get a degree in chemistry, 0:15:56.320 --> 0:16:00.200 and then apply it to forensic science and you know, 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:02.080 and then I say, if you want to after you 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:05.080 get the undergraduate degree, then consider a graduate degree in 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:07.880 forensic science where you could learn better how to apply 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:11.400 it or use these analytical techniques to analyze traces and 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:15.120 specific stuff like that. But yeah, if you don't, you know, 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:17.680 get the proper education, it could screw you all up. 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:20.680 And I feel terrible when I see like criminal justice majors, 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:22.400 you know, that come to me in their senior year 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:24.120 and they're like, I want to be a forensic scientist. 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.920 And I'm like, oh god, like you're getting a you know, 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:31.160 a criminal justice degree like that, You're like completely off 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:33.040 the path. And then they're like, well, I was advised 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.640 by a high school guidance counselor or you know, I 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:38.200 thought that, uh, you know, and so some of that 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:42.120 can be really heartbreaking. You don't check what's required, you know. 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:44.720 Yeah, I wish there was a way that they could 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:48.160 really interview people before they start school, because it's not 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:50.520 even just a matter of the time that you put 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.080 in and waste towards a degree, but it's so much 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:57.080 money and I know, like even one of my great friends, 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:59.120 she doesn't really want to be a PA anymore, and 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:01.400 she would put the time to go back to school 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.399 to be like a nurse practitioner or something, but she 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:07.960 just doesn't. She can't afford it. Like to go back 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.320 to school for two years at a graduate program is 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:15.280 a lot considering it's kind of a lateral move financially, right. So, 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:18.240 but I think that a lot of people are aren't 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:21.800 educated enough as to like what they're signing up for. 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.160 And you do hear stories like that all the time 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:27.280 of people saying these things, and you're like, oh, dude, 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.600 you're like way, you're way off, and then you feel bad, 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:36.200 you know. So let's get into your work with forensics 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:40.320 and tattoos. Before you really started all of your research 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:43.640 and everything, it was really not talked about that much. 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:46.919 You're the one that is the pioneer in this field, 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:50.560 so to speak. How did what was it that got 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:55.480 you interested in this specific niche thing of tattoos and 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.280 how did you think that it would be a really 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:01.160 good tool to use for a forensic investigations? 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:06.480 So it was the dock and stormy Night when not 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:11.320 so I was in my doctoral program. And as part 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:13.439 of a doctoral program, you take courses and you have 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:16.600 to do a doctoral dissertation, you have to do original research. 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:21.479 And I was really jaded. I was in uh, you know, 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:25.280 like I had been through a forensic science under I 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:28.560 mean graduate program, I had worked at the police department, 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:30.520 and I kind of hit this point where I was 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:33.400 actually really jaded with forensic science. And I still even 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:37.320 find myself these days like getting like that because you 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:40.879 started hearing about wellful convictions. You start to hear about 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.920 you know, quote crime lamb scandals, you know, where there 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:47.080 may be an analyst that's dry labbing or an analyst 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.520 that's you know, taking drugs or stealing drugs. So all 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:53.240 this stuff started to kind of like compound and I'm 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:55.199 like what am I doing here? Right on top of that, 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:58.080 you have CSI, and you have you know, people that 0:18:58.160 --> 0:18:59.960 are like, oh, I can do this, you know I 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:01.639 you know, I was in high school and I did 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:05.560 a crime scene you know, like a course, and I 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.720 can be a you know, forensic scientist. And so I 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:10.600 was like, I don't know what I'm doing, and I 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.400 was ready to actually just completely leave the field. And 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:18.320 actually I really got into art and art conservation, which 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.400 I've written about a little bit with like the intersection 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:24.679 between art and forensic science. And so my mentor at 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:27.080 the time came up to me and he was like, 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:29.199 I'll introduce you to someone, like we'll see if we 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:32.359 can get you doing like somehow like art fraud or 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:35.199 investigations and all that kind of fun stuff. And so 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:37.639 at this time that I was like completely jaded with 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:39.399 forensic science and trying to figure out what the hell 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:42.719 to do with myself, there were two cases that I 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:48.640 was preferring too that happened at the around the same 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:51.879 time that just really changed the course for me again. 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:57.240 So I was working with my mentor on a private 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.800 case where he was tired as a consultant. He was like, Hey, 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:03.159 come work this case with me. And it was a 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:06.880 man who had claimed to be sexually assaulted by law 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:11.520 enforcement officers. And so we were looking at the clothing 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:15.320 of this individual because based on his story, this was 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:18.640 an assault and so his clothing was damaged during the assault. 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:21.960 And we looked at his clothing and we're looking at 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.840 it microscopically and we're like, there's some really weird like 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:30.120 black stains, like some inky weird stains here, and so 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:34.320 we approached the lawyer and we said, look, we're finding 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:38.600 this black, inky residue like around this hole, so we'd 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:40.280 really like to look at it further. We'd like to 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:42.720 do some analysis on it to see what this ink 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:45.480 may be, et cetera, et cetera. And so we did 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:47.600 an analysis. So we're really trying to figure it out, 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:51.400 and the lawyer comes back and he's like, I want 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:55.280 to just fill you in. We think that the individual 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:59.000 who made the complaint, who happens to be a tattoo artist, 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:03.199 may have made the himself, and is it possible that 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:05.719 maybe he used like a tattoo machine or something that 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:08.439 may have had ink on it. And so we were like, 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:11.040 hmm right. So we were like, this is interesting because 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:14.800 this material keeps coming up as like some inky substance. 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:18.560 And so from that, you know, I realized there's really 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:22.240 no good, solid like database of like tattoo ink, so 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:24.880 like what they are, what they contain, all that kind 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:27.760 of fun stuff, and not from the perspective of like 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:29.760 these things are going to kill you if you inject 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:34.960 them in your skin as a tattooed individual whatever, but 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:38.400 more from the approach of like for a forensic database, 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:41.560 from a forensic perspective, like, how do we know what's 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:44.240 in these inks? If we find human remains, if there's 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:46.880 like some discoloration, could we figure out what if it's 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:49.240 an ink, if it's a pigment. You know, So my 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:54.400 brain started like swirling. So at the same time, one 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:57.720 of my colleagues that was a death investigator, she's like, yo, 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:00.600 She's like, you missed a case today. She is like, 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:05.439 it was crazy. So the case involved a body was 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:08.720 found set on fire in a park and so the 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:12.360 fire was put out, realized it's a body, and now 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:18.040 it's chored beyond recognition, right, so no fingerprints, no facial features, whatever. 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:22.320 So the body comes into the autopsy suite and during 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:27.920 the autopsy there's someone, right, So the investigators are there, 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:32.719 my friend is there with my colleagues, the pathologist, and 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:36.119 they're looking at this and someone sees some discoloration, and 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:41.160