1
00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:09,600
Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy.

2
00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,040
Speaker 2: Hi, guys, welcome to this week's episode of Mother Knows

3
00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:25,159
Speaker 2: Death and the External Exam with Doctor Michelle Miranda. A

4
00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,840
Speaker 2: few weeks ago a Mother Knows Death, Maria and I

5
00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,080
Speaker 2: were discussing a case in the news where there was

6
00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,800
Speaker 2: a woman who was killed thirty one years ago and

7
00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:38,320
Speaker 2: she was recently identified by her tattoo. So, of course,

8
00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,920
Speaker 2: the first person that I thought of talking to was

9
00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,000
Speaker 2: doctor Miranda because she is a forensic scientist who is

10
00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:51,839
Speaker 2: an expert in the identification and the forensics of tattoos. So, Hi, Michelle,

11
00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:52,480
Speaker 2: how are you doing?

12
00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,160
Speaker 1: H good? I'm doing right well, how are you great?

13
00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,720
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for being here today. I think this

14
00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,240
Speaker 2: is going to be an excellent interview and everybody's going

15
00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,840
Speaker 2: to love everything that we're talking about today. But before

16
00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,360
Speaker 2: we get started with the case that we were discussing

17
00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,520
Speaker 2: in the news a few weeks ago, I wanted everyone

18
00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,520
Speaker 2: to know a little bit about your background and how

19
00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,000
Speaker 2: you became a pioneer in this field.

20
00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:21,440
Speaker 1: You got it. So, I was originally a biopre med

21
00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,640
Speaker 1: major in college. I knew pretty much my whole life.

22
00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,800
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a doctor, and I wanted to

23
00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,800
Speaker 1: go into the medical field, so that was like an

24
00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,000
Speaker 1: easy kind of path to get me into, you know,

25
00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:39,839
Speaker 1: a program in bio. And it was my senior year

26
00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,520
Speaker 1: and I attended a lecture on campus. And I recommend

27
00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,560
Speaker 1: anybody like that is in school or has kids in school.

28
00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,480
Speaker 1: That's like one of the things you get outside the

29
00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,080
Speaker 1: classroom is like attending talks when they have like guest speakers,

30
00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:59,080
Speaker 1: and so that for me was awesome because the guest

31
00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,800
Speaker 1: speaker actually was from a medical examiner's office, and she

32
00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,320
Speaker 1: came to talk about the eme's office, and she came

33
00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,919
Speaker 1: to talk about friends of DNA analysis and all this stuff.

34
00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,680
Speaker 1: And I'll preface this by saying this was way before CSI.

35
00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:15,120
Speaker 1: I won't tell you all how old I am, but

36
00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,240
Speaker 1: it was before CSI. But so I sat and I

37
00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,079
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, this is like amazing, this

38
00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,320
Speaker 1: is so interesting to me. I'm like I love this.

39
00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,440
Speaker 1: And I had, you know, taking like genetics and taking

40
00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,480
Speaker 1: more bio and so I had a knowledge of this,

41
00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,480
Speaker 1: but like when you actually see it outside of a classroom,

42
00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:39,400
Speaker 1: outside of a textbook, like that real world, you know application,

43
00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,160
Speaker 1: it just can make so much of a difference, and

44
00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,480
Speaker 1: so I ran up to her after and I was like,

45
00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:46,920
Speaker 1: I love this. I want to learn more. Can I

46
00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,200
Speaker 1: intern with you? Can I do something? And she was

47
00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,840
Speaker 1: like yeah, sure. So my senior year, my last semester,

48
00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,519
Speaker 1: while everyone was out partying and having like a great time,

49
00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,880
Speaker 1: I was this idiot that decided I was going to

50
00:02:59,919 --> 00:03:02,600
Speaker 1: do internship. I decided I was going to take on

51
00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:06,120
Speaker 1: another minor. So I was already majoring in bio and

52
00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,520
Speaker 1: then minoring in chemistry, so I added a minor in

53
00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,639
Speaker 1: criminal justice because I wanted to learn about the criminal

54
00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,360
Speaker 1: justice aspect because of the forensic realm. And so my

55
00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:18,880
Speaker 1: senior year, I was going from the Bronx where I

56
00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,560
Speaker 1: was at Manhattan College, and I was taking the bus

57
00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,160
Speaker 1: all the way to the Medical Examiner's office in New

58
00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,160
Speaker 1: York City. So I was on the bus for like

59
00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:31,279
Speaker 1: hours to get there to go sit with this individual,

60
00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,480
Speaker 1: to learn about the lab, to learn about forensic DNA analysis,

61
00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,920
Speaker 1: to help her with her samples. And so it was

62
00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,800
Speaker 1: a really awesome experience that drew me into like this

63
00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,200
Speaker 1: whole forensic realm, and so I kind of changed my

64
00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,280
Speaker 1: course from there instead of you know, taking exams or

65
00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:56,440
Speaker 1: continuing to take MCAT study exams or practice exams. I

66
00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,440
Speaker 1: decided that I wanted to get my master's in forensic science.

67
00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:01,880
Speaker 1: And so what I did was I ended up applying

68
00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,080
Speaker 1: to John Jay and their master's program and forensic science

69
00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,720
Speaker 1: and kind of put my like medical plan on hold,

70
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,720
Speaker 1: you know, thinking that I would go for pathology. So

71
00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,520
Speaker 1: now I'm like, Okay, I'll do forensic pathology. And then

72
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:22,479
Speaker 1: when I started experiencing the master's program and learning about

73
00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,080
Speaker 1: trace evidence and traces, you know, like the hares, the fibers,

74
00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,479
Speaker 1: glass peed, but also like the microscopy, the spectroscopy, the

75
00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,720
Speaker 1: way that like you analyze these things and can get

76
00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,640
Speaker 1: so much information from a small sample, I was like,

77
00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,599
Speaker 1: this is it. This is for me. And so from

78
00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,039
Speaker 1: there I started working at the NYPV as a criminalist,

79
00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,560
Speaker 1: and then I decided to go back to my doctorate

80
00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,000
Speaker 1: and that kind of led me down the path be tattoos.

81
00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:50,840
Speaker 2: That's that's so great, And I love a couple of

82
00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,599
Speaker 2: different things that you said. Number one, you have to

83
00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,320
Speaker 2: keep this in mind because you and I are around

84
00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:00,200
Speaker 2: the same age. We won't say, but we I kind

85
00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,400
Speaker 2: of started off. I guess this was like in the nineties,

86
00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,479
Speaker 2: right when like you started going to college and everything

87
00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,240
Speaker 2: the same with me. And it's like we didn't have

88
00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,680
Speaker 2: all these things that kids have today, like TV shows

89
00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,640
Speaker 2: that talked about these different jobs, especially once that women

90
00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,760
Speaker 2: could do. And also we didn't have the Internet to

91
00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,880
Speaker 2: find out about it. And it's cool that you had

92
00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,320
Speaker 2: this lecture with this lady and then you just I

93
00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,880
Speaker 2: think this is really important for anyone, Like just you

94
00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:33,120
Speaker 2: approached her and showed your eagerness and just said I

95
00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,520
Speaker 2: love this and like help me figure out how to

96
00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,400
Speaker 2: do this with my life kind of thing. And I

97
00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,760
Speaker 2: think that's like really important and awesome. And how you

98
00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,880
Speaker 2: got that awesome opportunity at the Medical Examiner's Office which

99
00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,000
Speaker 2: then kind of shaped where you went on from there.

100
00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,919
Speaker 2: So you said that you were working at the for

101
00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,680
Speaker 2: the NYPD crime Lab, and I also know that you

102
00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,760
Speaker 2: worked for the Medical Examiner's Office too at some point.

103
00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,120
Speaker 2: So can you explain to everyone the difference between like

104
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,159
Speaker 2: doing forensics and crime scene stuff at the police department

105
00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,400
Speaker 2: versus the Medical Examiner and how the two of those

106
00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,360
Speaker 2: different teams work together to help solve crimes.

107
00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,800
Speaker 1: Sure, So one of the things I just want to

108
00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,520
Speaker 1: add is like it was important to hustle, like I

109
00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:28,560
Speaker 1: did not take like a very traditional route because when

110
00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,760
Speaker 1: I went to the NYPD, I stayed there for a

111
00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:34,760
Speaker 1: while and then I decided to go back for my doctorate.

112
00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:36,800
Speaker 1: And then while I was going to my doctorate is

113
00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,560
Speaker 1: when I just wanted to see as much as I could,

114
00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,839
Speaker 1: and so I took all these opportunities that came to me,

115
00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:49,039
Speaker 1: like working as a medical photographer forensic photographer during autopsies,

116
00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,080
Speaker 1: and then also working as like a you know, part

117
00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,719
Speaker 1: time death investigator. So that was one of the keys

118
00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,920
Speaker 1: to kind of me being a generalist from scientists, which

119
00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,039
Speaker 1: is someone who has like this broad knowledge and I

120
00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,360
Speaker 1: use like the cool crime scene to the core kind

121
00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,120
Speaker 1: of ideal. And it was experiencing all of these different

122
00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,560
Speaker 1: things and from doing that, not only did I see where,

123
00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,760
Speaker 1: like you're asking, things are interconnected, right and everybody's trying

124
00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,840
Speaker 1: to work together to solve a crime or work a case,

125
00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,040
Speaker 1: but also where there's disconnects or and forensic science we

126
00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,400
Speaker 1: talk about like silos about how like there tends to

127
00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,480
Speaker 1: not be a lot of really good communication between say

128
00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:34,360
Speaker 1: law enforcement, the crime lab, the medical examiner, and you know,

129
00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:38,520
Speaker 1: the prosecutor the defense attorney. Right, then everything can be

130
00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,400
Speaker 1: kind of segmented, but in the end, we all are

131
00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:46,000
Speaker 1: trying to work together towards a common goal. And so

132
00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,600
Speaker 1: at the NYPD working in the crime lab, you're in

133
00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,840
Speaker 1: the crime lab. So you're working a full day, eight

134
00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,360
Speaker 1: hours in a crime lab. Like a lot of people

135
00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,440
Speaker 1: think that they'll be running around at crime scenes in

136
00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,480
Speaker 1: you know, and driving hours and carrying a firearm and

137
00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,720
Speaker 1: you know, slamming someone up gets a wall and asking

138
00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,280
Speaker 1: them to confess. You know, it's not like the TV shows.

139
00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,200
Speaker 1: So you have like your crime scene people and in

140
00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,520
Speaker 1: New York City, crime scene or sworn detectives, so there's

141
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,200
Speaker 1: not a lot of civilians running around at crime scenes.

142
00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,480
Speaker 1: When you look at the way we're structured in New York.

143
00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,520
Speaker 1: Then you have the crime lab, which is a mixture

144
00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,800
Speaker 1: of civilians and law enforcement depending on where in the

145
00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,040
Speaker 1: lab that they work. And so there I was in

146
00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,880
Speaker 1: the trace unit. So that was again looking at different

147
00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:43,120
Speaker 1: types of traces from gunshot residue to hairs fibers, glass paint,

148
00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,760
Speaker 1: to chemical unknowns. Something was thrown in a person's face.

149
00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,280
Speaker 1: We don't know what this is kind of stuff, so

150
00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,200
Speaker 1: it was a mixture of everything. And then you have

151
00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,120
Speaker 1: other parts of the lab as well, like firearms drug analysis. Right,

152
00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,480
Speaker 1: So everybody's kind of structured doing that thing in a

153
00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,640
Speaker 1: crime lab, and you pretty much stay confined to the lab.

154
00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,120
Speaker 1: I was lucky enough in that my first area of

155
00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,720
Speaker 1: expertise was gunshot residue, so I happened to get involved

156
00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:14,280
Speaker 1: in a lot of interesting cases with shootings, with police

157
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,400
Speaker 1: involved shootings, and so I actually was lucky in that

158
00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,080
Speaker 1: on a couple occasions, I was able to go to

159
00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,920
Speaker 1: crime scenes or I was able to see like if

160
00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,800
Speaker 1: there was a vehicle involved. But it's not very typical

161
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,960
Speaker 1: of the criminalist in the crime lab to kind of

162
00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,920
Speaker 1: venture out all over the place. Then you have separate

163
00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,280
Speaker 1: you know, and again mostly talk about New York. Separate

164
00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:41,280
Speaker 1: is the medical Examiner's office, and so they're doing you have,

165
00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,719
Speaker 1: you know, the pathologists in the autopsy suite. You have

166
00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,400
Speaker 1: the toxicologists that are getting samples looking at whatever drugs

167
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,760
Speaker 1: there or covering or poisons from the body. And then

168
00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,920
Speaker 1: you have the DNA people, right, the criminalists that are

169
00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,880
Speaker 1: doing DNA analysis. And again it's very siloaed, it's very separate,

170
00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,559
Speaker 1: So like a piece of Eviden and may travel from

171
00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:06,240
Speaker 1: the crime scene to the NYPD lab for trace analysis,

172
00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:10,280
Speaker 1: then over to the OCME for DNA analysis. Right, so

173
00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,240
Speaker 1: everybody's kind of working separately but maybe working with the

174
00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,600
Speaker 1: same type of evidence. And then usually the detective assigned

175
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,040
Speaker 1: to the case and or you know, the prosecutor are

176
00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,120
Speaker 1: the ones that kind of put that picture together and

177
00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,920
Speaker 1: kind of work to reconstruct what may have happened based

178
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,080
Speaker 1: upon what they saw along this whole chain.

179
00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,600
Speaker 2: I think that's it's important because I do hear a

180
00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,440
Speaker 2: lot of people that are now, you know, the kids

181
00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,679
Speaker 2: that are growing up now have access to all these

182
00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,480
Speaker 2: TV shows, including like Forensic Files and then the fake

183
00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,000
Speaker 2: ones like CSI and things like that, but also just

184
00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,920
Speaker 2: the Internet and just everything that's going on. And I

185
00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,080
Speaker 2: think a lot of people don't know that there is

186
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,400
Speaker 2: a difference between the medical aspect of it and more

187
00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,720
Speaker 2: of like the science aspect of it. So if people

188
00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,720
Speaker 2: want to want to go to school for forensics, they

189
00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,720
Speaker 2: may sign up and think that they're doing autopsies and stuff,

190
00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,240
Speaker 2: but that wasn't really part of training for you, right

191
00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,240
Speaker 2: as a forensic scientist, right, it was more of like

192
00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,120
Speaker 2: the actual looking under a microscope and doing chemical analysis

193
00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,360
Speaker 2: and all these like actual lab tists.

194
00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, so forensic science and even that buzzword forensics is

195
00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:22,600
Speaker 1: very sexy now.

196
00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:22,880
Speaker 2: Right.

197
00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,680
Speaker 1: So back when I started, there were like three really

198
00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,880
Speaker 1: well known universities that had forensic science programs on the

199
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,640
Speaker 1: East Coast. Now with these they're everywhere, right, So you

200
00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,080
Speaker 1: get individuals all walks of life just kind of starting

201
00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:41,640
Speaker 1: these forensics programs all over. And there's a really big

202
00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:47,520
Speaker 1: difference what I recommend when I am asked for my advice,

203
00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,800
Speaker 1: I suggest to people to get a science degree, not

204
00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,920
Speaker 1: even to get a forensic science degree, because exactly like

205
00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,160
Speaker 1: you're saying, you may go for a forensic science education

206
00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,960
Speaker 1: and yeah, you may get some science, you know, but

207
00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,480
Speaker 1: you're getting like then you get like a Crensen investigation class. Right,

208
00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,120
Speaker 1: most people don't go on to you know, do crime

209
00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,600
Speaker 1: scene investigation, and most a different story for other day.

210
00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,800
Speaker 1: My feelings on crime scene investigation because you're really not

211
00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,320
Speaker 1: learning the skills involved in crimes and investigation that help

212
00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:25,319
Speaker 1: you to think properly, you know, critically, think, problem solve, reconstruct.

213
00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,200
Speaker 1: You're basically, you know, crimes and investigation classes are like

214
00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,760
Speaker 1: here's how you pick things up and wear protective equipment.

215
00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:36,080
Speaker 1: So the problem is if you get like a forensic

216
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,600
Speaker 1: science education is you may and again this is my

217
00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,160
Speaker 1: own opinion, depending on the program, depending on the educators,

218
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:48,199
Speaker 1: you may not get like good science education, right. And also,

219
00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,640
Speaker 1: as you're saying too, if I have a degree in biology,

220
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,199
Speaker 1: premit right, and I go work in a crime lab

221
00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,080
Speaker 1: and I hate it, I just hate it. I do

222
00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:57,679
Speaker 1: it for a couple of years, I'm like, Okay, I

223
00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,240
Speaker 1: thought it was going to be like TV. It's not

224
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,880
Speaker 1: like TV. On miserrabele. If I have that biodegree, I

225
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,480
Speaker 1: can go take that biodegree and work a lot of places,

226
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:08,840
Speaker 1: or decide to go to medical school, designed to go

227
00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,400
Speaker 1: to graduate school, whatever. When you have a forensic science degree,

228
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,600
Speaker 1: you may not have those same opportunities, right, So you

229
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,160
Speaker 1: want to go work in a lab and they're like, oh,

230
00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,120
Speaker 1: you have a forensic science degree, or looking someone with

231
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,520
Speaker 1: a biodegree or with a chemistry degree, right, especially if

232
00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,560
Speaker 1: they look at your coursework and they say, hey, half

233
00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,600
Speaker 1: of your forensic science classes are social sciences like forensic

234
00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,640
Speaker 1: psychology and brands and investigation. You know, so you may

235
00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,640
Speaker 1: not be viewed as having a real degree in the

236
00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,880
Speaker 1: natural sciences. And so that's one of the you know,

237
00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,800
Speaker 1: sort of weaknesses that I identified, because you know, regulating

238
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,160
Speaker 1: forensic science programs, you know, can be a little iffy.

239
00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,880
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean it's going to be very difficult

240
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,600
Speaker 1: for someone that graduates with a forensic science degree to

241
00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:56,600
Speaker 1: potentially get into medical school down the line if they

242
00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,160
Speaker 1: decide they hate forensic science to the crime lab, whether

243
00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,840
Speaker 1: they want to do pathology or something else. And I

244
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,560
Speaker 1: feel like you have more opportunities if you say that

245
00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,040
Speaker 1: bio or chemistry degree and then kind of switch your way.

246
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,640
Speaker 1: But definitely they're different, you know, going for forensic science.

247
00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,360
Speaker 1: And I've had students ask me this before. They're like, oh,

248
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,760
Speaker 1: how long until I get to do autopsies? How many

249
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,120
Speaker 1: classes do I have to take before I could do autopsis?

250
00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,480
Speaker 1: And You're just like, oh my god, Like it breaks

251
00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,000
Speaker 1: your heart, you know, because you're like, no, this is

252
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,240
Speaker 1: not that's not what's happening. But yeah, there are distinct

253
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:33,200
Speaker 1: differences between the career paths, and so I tell people

254
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,600
Speaker 1: take the forensic away from whatever you want to do,

255
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:40,840
Speaker 1: whether it's pathology, science, psychology, remove the word forensic and

256
00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,960
Speaker 1: just what does it take to be a psychologist, a scientist,

257
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:48,000
Speaker 1: a pathologist, and then you know, look at what these

258
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,800
Speaker 1: jobs entail, look at what the career path entails, because

259
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,600
Speaker 1: the forensic is sort of the application of these sciences

260
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:57,280
Speaker 1: to criminal justice problems.

261
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with you there, it's a huge disconnect

262
00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,040
Speaker 2: between like what the jobs actually are and then what

263
00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,080
Speaker 2: kids are going to college for. And that happened in

264
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,560
Speaker 2: my program too, Like I went for a master's and

265
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,320
Speaker 2: as a pathologist assistant, but I knew what the job

266
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,120
Speaker 2: was because I was already working in the hospital, So

267
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,720
Speaker 2: I knew when I graduated, like what I was going

268
00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,240
Speaker 2: to be doing. But so many girls that were in

269
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,360
Speaker 2: my program didn't even know what they would really be

270
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,840
Speaker 2: doing as a job, and some of them really don't

271
00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:31,600
Speaker 2: want to do it as a job. But since it's

272
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,360
Speaker 2: so specific, it's like you can't get a job anywhere

273
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,520
Speaker 2: else doing any Like if you get a master's as

274
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,200
Speaker 2: a PA, you can't go be a nurse or anything.

275
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,240
Speaker 2: You'd have to go back to school all over again.

276
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,360
Speaker 2: So sometimes a broader degree works better sometimes.

277
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's I mean, I always you know, said

278
00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:53,160
Speaker 1: like this is my opinion. I would rather see you

279
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,240
Speaker 1: go get a degree in biology, get a degree in chemistry,

280
00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,200
Speaker 1: and then apply it to forensic science and you know,

281
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,080
Speaker 1: and then I say, if you want to after you

282
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,080
Speaker 1: get the undergraduate degree, then consider a graduate degree in

283
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,880
Speaker 1: forensic science where you could learn better how to apply

284
00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,400
Speaker 1: it or use these analytical techniques to analyze traces and

285
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,120
Speaker 1: specific stuff like that. But yeah, if you don't, you know,

286
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,680
Speaker 1: get the proper education, it could screw you all up.

287
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,680
Speaker 1: And I feel terrible when I see like criminal justice majors,

288
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:22,400
Speaker 1: you know, that come to me in their senior year

289
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,120
Speaker 1: and they're like, I want to be a forensic scientist.

290
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,920
Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh god, like you're getting a you know,

291
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,160
Speaker 1: a criminal justice degree like that, You're like completely off

292
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,040
Speaker 1: the path. And then they're like, well, I was advised

293
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,640
Speaker 1: by a high school guidance counselor or you know, I

294
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,200
Speaker 1: thought that, uh, you know, and so some of that

295
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,120
Speaker 1: can be really heartbreaking. You don't check what's required, you know.

296
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:44,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wish there was a way that they could

297
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,160
Speaker 2: really interview people before they start school, because it's not

298
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,520
Speaker 2: even just a matter of the time that you put

299
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,080
Speaker 2: in and waste towards a degree, but it's so much

300
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,080
Speaker 2: money and I know, like even one of my great friends,

301
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,120
Speaker 2: she doesn't really want to be a PA anymore, and

302
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,400
Speaker 2: she would put the time to go back to school

303
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,399
Speaker 2: to be like a nurse practitioner or something, but she

304
00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,960
Speaker 2: just doesn't. She can't afford it. Like to go back

305
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,320
Speaker 2: to school for two years at a graduate program is

306
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,280
Speaker 2: a lot considering it's kind of a lateral move financially, right. So,

307
00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,240
Speaker 2: but I think that a lot of people are aren't

308
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,800
Speaker 2: educated enough as to like what they're signing up for.

309
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,160
Speaker 2: And you do hear stories like that all the time

310
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,280
Speaker 2: of people saying these things, and you're like, oh, dude,

311
00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,600
Speaker 2: you're like way, you're way off, and then you feel bad,

312
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:36,200
Speaker 2: you know. So let's get into your work with forensics

313
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,320
Speaker 2: and tattoos. Before you really started all of your research

314
00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,640
Speaker 2: and everything, it was really not talked about that much.

315
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,919
Speaker 2: You're the one that is the pioneer in this field,

316
00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,560
Speaker 2: so to speak. How did what was it that got

317
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:55,480
Speaker 2: you interested in this specific niche thing of tattoos and

318
00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,280
Speaker 2: how did you think that it would be a really

319
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,160
Speaker 2: good tool to use for a forensic investigations?

320
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,480
Speaker 1: So it was the dock and stormy Night when not

321
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,320
Speaker 1: so I was in my doctoral program. And as part

322
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,439
Speaker 1: of a doctoral program, you take courses and you have

323
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,600
Speaker 1: to do a doctoral dissertation, you have to do original research.

324
00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,479
Speaker 1: And I was really jaded. I was in uh, you know,

325
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,280
Speaker 1: like I had been through a forensic science under I

326
00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,560
Speaker 1: mean graduate program, I had worked at the police department,

327
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:30,520
Speaker 1: and I kind of hit this point where I was

328
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,400
Speaker 1: actually really jaded with forensic science. And I still even

329
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,320
Speaker 1: find myself these days like getting like that because you

330
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,879
Speaker 1: started hearing about wellful convictions. You start to hear about

331
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,920
Speaker 1: you know, quote crime lamb scandals, you know, where there

332
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,080
Speaker 1: may be an analyst that's dry labbing or an analyst

333
00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,520
Speaker 1: that's you know, taking drugs or stealing drugs. So all

334
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,240
Speaker 1: this stuff started to kind of like compound and I'm

335
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,199
Speaker 1: like what am I doing here? Right on top of that,

336
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,080
Speaker 1: you have CSI, and you have you know, people that

337
00:18:58,160 --> 00:18:59,960
Speaker 1: are like, oh, I can do this, you know I

338
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:01,639
Speaker 1: you know, I was in high school and I did

339
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,560
Speaker 1: a crime scene you know, like a course, and I

340
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,720
Speaker 1: can be a you know, forensic scientist. And so I

341
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:10,600
Speaker 1: was like, I don't know what I'm doing, and I

342
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,400
Speaker 1: was ready to actually just completely leave the field. And

343
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:18,320
Speaker 1: actually I really got into art and art conservation, which

344
00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,400
Speaker 1: I've written about a little bit with like the intersection

345
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,679
Speaker 1: between art and forensic science. And so my mentor at

346
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,080
Speaker 1: the time came up to me and he was like,

347
00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,199
Speaker 1: I'll introduce you to someone, like we'll see if we

348
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,359
Speaker 1: can get you doing like somehow like art fraud or

349
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,199
Speaker 1: investigations and all that kind of fun stuff. And so

350
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,639
Speaker 1: at this time that I was like completely jaded with

351
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,399
Speaker 1: forensic science and trying to figure out what the hell

352
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,719
Speaker 1: to do with myself, there were two cases that I

353
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:48,640
Speaker 1: was preferring too that happened at the around the same

354
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,879
Speaker 1: time that just really changed the course for me again.

355
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:57,240
Speaker 1: So I was working with my mentor on a private

356
00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,800
Speaker 1: case where he was tired as a consultant. He was like, Hey,

357
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,159
Speaker 1: come work this case with me. And it was a

358
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,880
Speaker 1: man who had claimed to be sexually assaulted by law

359
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,520
Speaker 1: enforcement officers. And so we were looking at the clothing

360
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,320
Speaker 1: of this individual because based on his story, this was

361
00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,640
Speaker 1: an assault and so his clothing was damaged during the assault.

362
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,960
Speaker 1: And we looked at his clothing and we're looking at

363
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,840
Speaker 1: it microscopically and we're like, there's some really weird like

364
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:30,120
Speaker 1: black stains, like some inky weird stains here, and so

365
00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 1: we approached the lawyer and we said, look, we're finding

366
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,600
Speaker 1: this black, inky residue like around this hole, so we'd

367
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,280
Speaker 1: really like to look at it further. We'd like to

368
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 1: do some analysis on it to see what this ink

369
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,480
Speaker 1: may be, et cetera, et cetera. And so we did

370
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 1: an analysis. So we're really trying to figure it out,

371
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,400
Speaker 1: and the lawyer comes back and he's like, I want

372
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 1: to just fill you in. We think that the individual

373
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,000
Speaker 1: who made the complaint, who happens to be a tattoo artist,

374
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,199
Speaker 1: may have made the himself, and is it possible that

375
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,719
Speaker 1: maybe he used like a tattoo machine or something that

376
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,439
Speaker 1: may have had ink on it. And so we were like,

377
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,040
Speaker 1: hmm right. So we were like, this is interesting because

378
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 1: this material keeps coming up as like some inky substance.

379
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 1: And so from that, you know, I realized there's really

380
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,240
Speaker 1: no good, solid like database of like tattoo ink, so

381
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,880
Speaker 1: like what they are, what they contain, all that kind

382
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,760
Speaker 1: of fun stuff, and not from the perspective of like

383
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 1: these things are going to kill you if you inject

384
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 1: them in your skin as a tattooed individual whatever, but

385
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,400
Speaker 1: more from the approach of like for a forensic database,

386
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 1: from a forensic perspective, like, how do we know what's

387
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 1: in these inks? If we find human remains, if there's

388
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,880
Speaker 1: like some discoloration, could we figure out what if it's

389
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 1: an ink, if it's a pigment. You know, So my

390
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:54,400
Speaker 1: brain started like swirling. So at the same time, one

391
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 1: of my colleagues that was a death investigator, she's like, yo,

392
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 1: She's like, you missed a case today. She is like,

393
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,439
Speaker 1: it was crazy. So the case involved a body was

394
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 1: found set on fire in a park and so the

395
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,360
Speaker 1: fire was put out, realized it's a body, and now

396
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 1: it's chored beyond recognition, right, so no fingerprints, no facial features, whatever.

397
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 1: So the body comes into the autopsy suite and during

398
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 1: the autopsy there's someone, right, So the investigators are there,

399
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,719
Speaker 1: my friend is there with my colleagues, the pathologist, and

400
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,119
Speaker 1: they're looking at this and someone sees some discoloration, and

401
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:41,160
Speaker 1: so the pathologist scrapes off the burck short skin and

402
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: a tattoo appears right that had not been destroyed, and

403
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,280
Speaker 1: so they were able to resolve the entirety of the

404
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,879
Speaker 1: tattoo and a name was in it. And so this

405
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 1: was photographed, and law enforcement was able to use this

406
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 1: to basically go around say do you recognize this tattoo? Right,

407
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 1: And so from there they were able to identify who

408
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:04,679
Speaker 1: the individual was, you know, identify potential suspects linked to

409
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 1: a bunch of other criminal activity that had been going

410
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 1: on with the partner, right. And then the case ended

411
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,199
Speaker 1: up being going to court, being adjudicated, and this man

412
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 1: was found guilty. And so it was perfect timing because

413
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 1: on this one hand, I'm looking at tattoo inks and

414
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,920
Speaker 1: then on the other hand, I'm looking at this case

415
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 1: where this tattoo was necessary to identify this investigation forward,

416
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 1: and I was like, blink, that was it. It was

417
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 1: like light bulb went off. I'm like, this is where

418
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 1: I'm meant to be. And so that sort of long

419
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 1: version of how I ended up going down this strange

420
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 1: road of tattoos and forensic context.

421
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 2: That's so cool, And that brings us to the news

422
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 2: story that we were talking about a few weeks ago.

423
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 2: And of course when I texted you, you were like, yeah,

424
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 2: I'm on top of that, like I heard you know,

425
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 2: I heard about that. But just briefly, I'm going to

426
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 2: just explain what happened. There was thirty one years ago

427
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 2: a British woman was found dead. She was found murdered

428
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,160
Speaker 2: in Belgium and they didn't know who she was all

429
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 2: of this time, and she was just given the name

430
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 2: the woman with the flower tattoo. And then there was

431
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 2: an international campaign was set up to try to identify

432
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 2: these twenty two women that have been killed over the

433
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 2: years to see who they were, and a website was

434
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 2: created and they put a picture of this tattoo that

435
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 2: was it was a flower tattoo that had the letters

436
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 2: are and then the name Nick R Nick in it.

437
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 2: And sure enough, someone saw the photograph and thought they

438
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 2: sent in a tip and they thought that it was

439
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 2: one of their family members, and then they were able

440
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 2: to identify the woman as Rita Rogers and finally give

441
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 2: some peace to her family because she just went missing

442
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 2: one day and they never knew what happened to her.

443
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 2: I just think that that's such a cool story and

444
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 2: it sounds like almost similar to what happened in your case.

445
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 2: So besides, we kind of briefly talked about this, but

446
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 2: maybe we could just go in depth about it a

447
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 2: little bit more.

448
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 1: So.

449
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,959
Speaker 2: You have the one aspect where you're looking at the

450
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 2: tattoo itself that could be used as identification, and then

451
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 2: you're also you also could use tattoos and forensics in

452
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 2: other cases as far as looking at it under the

453
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 2: microscope and the pigments and stuff.

454
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: Correct. Yeah, so there's a lot that can be done

455
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 1: with tattoos, and from my perspective, I feel like not

456
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 1: enough is being done, because yeah, we can start to

457
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 1: First of all, identifying or locating the tattoo is like

458
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: a big thing, and so it frustrates me sometimes when

459
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: you know, I'm under the impression from communication with individuals

460
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: in the field that if you don't see the tattoo

461
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 1: and it's not glaring and right in front of you,

462
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: then you don't change attention to it. Meaning like if

463
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: we do have chore remains, if we do have decomposed remains,

464
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: if we do have a lot of these old cases,

465
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: the tattoos may be overlooked or they may be identified

466
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: but improperly described or labeled. And so that kind of

467
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: drives me crazy because we have these cases where just

468
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,479
Speaker 1: the presence of a tattoo maybe enough. Like we're humans,

469
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: we're visual people, right, so we see something, we remember

470
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: it and then we see it again and we're like, ah,

471
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: we make those connections like we've been learning to do

472
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: that since we were kids. And so this case that

473
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 1: you mentioned is really bittersweet to me because, on the

474
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: one hand, awesome, like we identified this individual, we have closure,

475
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,880
Speaker 1: and now we have the opening of a murder investigation, right,

476
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: which you know is good. We're making progress here. But

477
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: it annoys me that it's thirty one freaking years that

478
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: have gone by, and now I will give credit in

479
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 1: this case, thirty one years ago, we didn't have the Internet,

480
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: we didn't have social media, we didn't have these networks

481
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: to communicate, especially like as I mentioned earlier with the

482
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 1: siloing right even within one organization, forget other organizations. But now,

483
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: like you know, this woman was found in Belgium shoes

484
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: from the UK, right, So we can't keep this stuff

485
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 1: close to home. You can't just distribute this in like

486
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 1: the local neighborhood and said, you know, do you recognize

487
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 1: this because it may be people travel the world now,

488
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: people are all over the place. So for me, the

489
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 1: fact that we're not doing more with cold cases, we're

490
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 1: not doing more with current cases, drives meat bananas, like

491
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: we should be putting these tattoos out there. That's why

492
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: whenever I'm contacted by a law enforcement agency, I put

493
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: the tattoo out there and with a little bit of

494
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: a backstory and just kind of like let it sit.

495
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,959
Speaker 1: Or when I see these cases in the news, you know,

496
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: send them out to the public, because it's so closed

497
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 1: off what we could be doing with tattoos that we don't.

498
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: But yeah, we could do the basic things like the

499
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: visual identification. Just have you seen this tattoo? Do you

500
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: recognize this tattoo all the way up to the potential

501
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 1: of even which can get a little dicey the interpretation, right,

502
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 1: And I know, actually that's how you and I started talking.

503
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember. It was the Ann

504
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 1: Hernandez case, right, So there was a case where you know,

505
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 1: when I'm talking about the football player, you know, for

506
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 1: the Patriots at the time, right, who where in court

507
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,880
Speaker 1: they're trying to look at his tattoos. He was alive, right,

508
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: but he was charged with murder and they're trying to

509
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: interpret his tattoos. Right. Does this tattoo have symbolism? Does

510
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: this depiction of a firearm or a cartridge case indicate

511
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: that he had committed murder. Right, So then we see

512
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 1: that interpretation can be really useful, maybe if we're looking

513
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: for affiliations with gangs, for relationships or for anything like that.

514
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: But we have to be careful when we start trying

515
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: to interpret it and linking it to people, you know,

516
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: being involved in criminal acts. But you know, the interpretation

517
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: of a tattoo can be useful and helped draw connections

518
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: just the characteristics of the tattoo. For example, a lot

519
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: of my grad students I had doing research on temporary tattoos.

520
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: You know, how often do people look for temporary tattoos

521
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: we see now that you know, whether it's like the

522
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: little kid with the sticker or it's the licking stick

523
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: you know, from when we were kids, or even now

524
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: with these more elaborate temporary tattoos for people that don't

525
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: want to commit or afraid of pain. No comment, right,

526
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: but you know, we see like that even identifying the

527
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: tattoo can help us try and figure out where it

528
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: came from or what it is. Is it temporary, is

529
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: it permanent, when was it made? All that kind of

530
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: fun stuff, and then we can start to get into

531
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: the actual analysis of the inks, both the inks you

532
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,479
Speaker 1: know that or in the bottle or the inks that

533
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: may end up being in human skin or in tissue, right,

534
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: and being able to see if we can draw connections

535
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: and say, hey, we can't resolve this tattoo because the

536
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: body's too decomposed or its charred, but we do detect

537
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: yellow pigment, we do detect green pigment, so we think

538
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: this was a yellow and green tattoo located here. Whatever.

539
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: So I think tattoos are underutilized. I think that if

540
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: they're not present, you know, like people should be using

541
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: infrared photography, they should be using alternate light sources. They

542
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: should be scanning these bodies to see, hey, even though

543
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: it's decomposed or its chored or mummified, you know, there

544
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: may still be a tattoo there. And that's like instant, right.

545
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: Everything has to go to the lab for DNA analysis,

546
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: you know, and people forget our databases are only as

547
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: good as what we have in them. So if someone's

548
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: not in a DNA database, right, if someone doesn't have

549
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: their fingerprints on file, someone doesn't have dental records, right,

550
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: they're not in that database to begin with. But with

551
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: a tattoo, you can take a beautiful photo, you can

552
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: put it out there to the public and just start

553
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: to get those investigatory leads that can help you. You

554
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: don't leave a case forward.

555
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, they're so identifying and even if you

556
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 2: go into I mean a lot of old, older cases,

557
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 2: I would say, especially especially with women and stuff, it's

558
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 2: like you would walk into a tattoo shop and you

559
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 2: would pick off of the wall like a flash.

560
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: Right.

561
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 2: But now as time goes on, it's going to be

562
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: like most most places don't even do that anymore. It's

563
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 2: like everything's custom drawn and it's just very specific to

564
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 2: an individual their tattoo, and I think it, I mean,

565
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 2: it's just like an awesome way to idea. It's probably

566
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: the most significant identifying factor without showing their dead face

567
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: or something, you know what I mean that that might

568
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 2: not even look like them anyway. Yeah, speaking of like

569
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 2: the Aaron Hernad is it hernandezk case you were saying

570
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 2: about the court them talking about it in court? Is

571
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: that something that you've ever done or would you be

572
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: asked to ever testify in court as it pertains to

573
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: a tattoo and a forensic case.

574
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: So I have testified in court as an expert forensic scientist.

575
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: For my time at the police Department, I have not

576
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: testified as a tattoo expert yet. The opportunity just hasn't arisen,

577
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: and you know, I would love to be more involved

578
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: with these cases. A lot of the work that I've

579
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: done in terms of consulting has been more pro bono,

580
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: simplified of whether it's posting something on my Instagram, being

581
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: asked to look at something and just kind of see

582
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: if there's an interpretation, if there's any clues, or just

583
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: ask my opinion about something. So for me, it's not

584
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: about like consulting, making money, testifying in court and you know,

585
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: being this big deal. It's about like helping to identify

586
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: these individuals. I mean. But sure, like you know, I've

587
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: had calls from you know, law enforcement agencies that think

588
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: if they want to hire me, and then all of

589
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: a sudden, you know, once they you know, find out

590
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: what it entails, you know, and never hear from them again.

591
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 1: You know. So people also, I think, are not willing

592
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: to invest the time and energy and figure, yeah we'll

593
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: just let it ride, we'll rely on DNA, or we

594
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: have too much other stuff to worry about, you know,

595
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: And so that's a shame, like you know that that

596
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: I'm not cold on more, because it would just be

597
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: really nice to to, you know, work some of these

598
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: cases and solve some of them, or at least get

599
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: some investigatory leads that you know can be worked to

600
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: get these cases going.

601
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 2: This episode is brought to you by The Grosser Room.

602
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 2: If you love this podcast and you love my Instagram account,

603
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 2: you will love the Grosser Room. Every week we have

604
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 2: lots of cases of articles discussing celebrity deaths and high

605
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 2: profile deaths. And since we are going on our fourth year,

606
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 2: you have thousands of photos, videos and articles to catch

607
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 2: up on. This Friday, December fifteenth, for only five days,

608
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: the gross Room is going on sale for only twenty

609
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 2: dollars for the year. Treat yourself this holiday season to gross.

610
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:29,919
Speaker 1: In two.

611
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 2: I know, back in twenty and fifteen you wrote a

612
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 2: book about all of all of your findings and your

613
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 2: research on forensics and tattoos. And it is this a

614
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 2: book that's specifically geared towards forensic scientists or is this

615
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 2: a book that I could buy for one of my

616
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 2: friends who's a tattoo artist and just is really interested

617
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:52,720
Speaker 2: in tattoos.

618
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: So when I wrote the book, I did it's a mix, right,

619
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: So I wanted to include some of the chemistry and

620
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 1: some of the information from my doctoral work so that

621
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: it was somewhere right so someone can look at this

622
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 1: if they're say a pathologist, can flip open a book

623
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: and see my images, you know, my from the microscope

624
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: of what these tattooings look like under the microscope to

625
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,959
Speaker 1: what they look like when they're analyzed chemically. So there

626
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: is that certain like forensic element that's geared towards forensic

627
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 1: scientist pathologists. But I also wanted to make it readable

628
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: and usable for the average individual or you know, a

629
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: tattoo artist or a tattoo of fictionado, a lawyer or whatever.

630
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: And so there are elements there where I start talking

631
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 1: about the history, and I go through the history of inks,

632
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 1: and I go through you know, court cases where tattoos

633
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: have been used. So in my mind, you know, I

634
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: tried to make it as draad as I could. But

635
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: I know some people may look at it and say, Okay,

636
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: I see chemistry, I see chemical structures, like you're just

637
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,879
Speaker 1: you know, that's too much. But there's a little bit

638
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: in there for everyone to hopefully see where I'm trying

639
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: to go with the importance of tattoos in a forensic context.

640
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 2: I think discussing the tattoos is a really important thing

641
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 2: that's not discussed enough as you would as you're saying,

642
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 2: especially because so many people in the population now have

643
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 2: one or multiple tattoos. It's like it's a really high number.

644
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 2: Last time I checked, it was like seventy percent of

645
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 2: the population has at least one tattoo or something. I mean,

646
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 2: that's a lot. And recently on Instagram, I had done

647
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 2: two different mystery diagnosis that involved tattoos. One was a

648
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 2: person that had the tattoo pigment in their lymph nodes

649
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 2: and was presenting with lymph anopathy. And the other one

650
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 2: was a woman that had her tattoos eyebrowed or her

651
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 2: eyebrow tattooed in another country and she ended up getting

652
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 2: an infection because they think that the water in that

653
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 2: country was mixed with some of the tattoo anchor pigment

654
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 2: and then it was tattooed in her and that's how

655
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,919
Speaker 2: she got that weird bacteria in her body. But I'll

656
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 2: never forget I was doing. I was working in pathology.

657
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 2: Now this was back like fifteen years ago, but we

658
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 2: got lymph nodes on a patient with breast cancer and

659
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 2: the pathologist was looking under the microscope to see if

660
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 2: she had metastatic tumor, and then he was just like,

661
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 2: this is really weird. There's like all this black stuff

662
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: in her lymph node and I wonder what this is

663
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 2: and so and so, and then he called the surgeon

664
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: during the surgery and was like, is there a reason

665
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 2: that you could think that she would have like all

666
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 2: this weird black stuff. And then the surgeon was like, yeah,

667
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 2: her whole entire arm is tattooed, and the pathal just

668
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 2: like kind of had never seen them, which it was.

669
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 2: I mean, it was fifteen years ago, and this is

670
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: going to increase as time goes on, just because more

671
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 2: people are getting tattooed. But it was interesting to me

672
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 2: that I'm like, oh, this was nothing that you ever

673
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 2: learned or heard of until today right now, Like you

674
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 2: know what I mean, It's kinds.

675
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 1: Which is crazy because there are pathologists that were writing

676
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: about this in the eighteen hundreds. So I did this

677
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: you know, great? Well, I mean just ask me. I

678
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: think it was great. This entry for a French Medical

679
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: Legal Forensic Pathology text. And that's one of the things

680
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: I talk about is you know how a lot of

681
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: these pathologists, especially in Europe, in the eighteen hundreds, right

682
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 1: when we're starting to think about the idea of forensic

683
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 1: science really gaining steam. Which is another thing that drives

684
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: me crazy because the younger generation, I don't know if

685
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 1: they're being taught this or they just think this, but

686
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,720
Speaker 1: they believe forensic science started like during the OJ case,

687
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: you know, and and with the introduction of you know,

688
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,439
Speaker 1: DNA analysis, so a lot of people seem to think

689
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,800
Speaker 1: like forensic science science was like invented in the eighties

690
00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,040
Speaker 1: or the nineties, right wow, But yeah, people were talking

691
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: about this and the eighteen hundreds, you find these references

692
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: to you know, being able to detect you know, these

693
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 1: pigments in the lymp notes. So this is something that's

694
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 1: been around for a very long time. And yeah, I

695
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: mean people are just not aware of the history. And

696
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: that was another reason for you know, the reason why

697
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: I wanted to do this book was because I wanted

698
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: to trace the history of these inks.

699
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:23,800
Speaker 2: Uh.

700
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: And you know how these inks have evolved all it

701
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 1: over time, uh, you know, which is important too, because

702
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 1: everyone says, ah, you know you're going to get a

703
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 1: tattoo and you know you're going to die. But all right,

704
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 1: I'm a little dramatic there, Let me be, Let me be.

705
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: But you know, you see these individuals that like, oh see,

706
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: you know tattoo you know so long ago, you know,

707
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: and you know, these things stick around and they're such

708
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: great traces and they can definitely be used for so

709
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 1: many important things. Uh, you know, but it's not new,

710
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: and that's you know, something important as well is that

711
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: I knew when I was doing my research that yeah,

712
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: there were maybe a day database here of tattoos and

713
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: meanings or maybe someone had studied inks mostly for the

714
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: medical you know, dermatological whatever. But to put it all

715
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 1: together and kind of isolate it was what was really

716
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: important for me when I did my research. And also,

717
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: you know, came up with the book. You know, so

718
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 1: people know these things are you know they exist?

719
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, it's it's really great. Speaking of tattoo meanings,

720
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,479
Speaker 2: I think that I have a forensic book. I feel

721
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 2: like I sent you a picture of this once that

722
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 2: it's from the fifties. It's like an old forensic book

723
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 2: and it has a picture of a guy's hand with

724
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 2: a sparrow, and it just says, oh, this indicates that

725
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 2: this person is homosexual. And and then like I have

726
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 2: tattoos of spiderwebs on my elbows, which in the past

727
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 2: used to mean that you did time in jail or something,

728
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 2: and of people getting a tear drop a tattoo on

729
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 2: their face under their eye, and all these things that

730
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 2: sometimes things used to have a certain meaning and now

731
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,479
Speaker 2: they don't, or sometimes like I got it just because

732
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 2: I was kind of like, oh, I'm like a cute

733
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 2: How old was I seventeen or eighteen when I got it?

734
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 2: Like I'm a cute little girl, and getting like this

735
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,919
Speaker 2: is so ironic and cool, you know whatever. But it's

736
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 2: interesting that people, like like scholarly people sit there and

737
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 2: write about like what certain tattoos mean and stuff. I

738
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 2: just always thought that was interesting. All right, So let's

739
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 2: talk about a couple of weeks ago. I texted you

740
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 2: and asked you if you wanted to be on the show,

741
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 2: obviously to talk about this stuff. And you told me

742
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 2: that you were in Australia, which was so cool. So

743
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:32,959
Speaker 2: why were you there?

744
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: So I was in Australia for the International Association of

745
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: Forensic Sciences International Conference, which was awesome, and my purpose

746
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:49,240
Speaker 1: for being there was profecional purpose for being there was twofold.

747
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: So first it was to promote what my colleagues and

748
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 1: I have come up with called the Sydney Declaration. And

749
00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: it really is kind of like trying to reclaim forensic science, uh,

750
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: you know, from the perspective of the scientists, because it's

751
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: gotten so off, you know, off track. There's so much

752
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:11,479
Speaker 1: forensic science everywhere. It's saturated. Uh, you know, and who

753
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,280
Speaker 1: dictates or science, right? Is it lawyers? Is it judges?

754
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 1: Is it you know, law enforcement agencies? And so one

755
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,280
Speaker 1: of the big things was to talk and promote about

756
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 1: to talk about and promote the declaration.

757
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 2: Uh.

758
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,280
Speaker 1: And the other one, which is something that's very important

759
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,760
Speaker 1: to me, is I gave a plenary talk on sexual

760
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: and gender based violence, especially in regions of conflict. Uh.

761
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: And so one other things that really interests me is

762
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: the quality of international investigations and the quality of forensic science.

763
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: Uh that's being done when we look at you know,

764
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 1: world events, uh, you know, mass chaos and and all

765
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 1: this kind of crazy stuff where there's sexual and gender

766
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: based violence. Uh. You know, why is it such that

767
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 1: there are not a lot of cases that are prosecuted

768
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: in international courts? Why is there are not necessarily justice?

769
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 1: And you know, can we do better as forensic scientists

770
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: in collecting traces and preserving traces that can be used

771
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 1: you know, because generally speaking, a lot of these investigations

772
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: are kind of based on eyewitness testimony or based on

773
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: statements from the victim or survivor of these events, which

774
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: can be very traumatic. And so is there a way

775
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 1: to improve the quality of forensic investigations and forensic science

776
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: in that respect of dealing with you know, sexual and

777
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 1: gender based violence and regions of conflict.

778
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 2: While you were in Australia, this is this will be

779
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 2: my favorite part of the interview. While you were there,

780
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 2: you learned some interesting facts about koalas and chlamydia. Can

781
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 2: you please explain what you learned there?

782
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: Okay, so let me Christmas by saying I know I'm

783
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 1: going to say this, and I was so super excited,

784
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: and there's gonna be people out there that I'm gonna be like,

785
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 1: am I not?

786
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 2: I had?

787
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: I do not know this. Look, I did not know this.

788
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,240
Speaker 2: At all, but apparently I never heard it.

789
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: Apparently everyone was like, oh, yeah, you didn't know, and

790
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: I was like, what kind of education did I get? So,

791
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 1: for those of you who just died, no, So koalas

792
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: have rampant chamydia. Right, I had no idea, not a clue.

793
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: Everyone's like, well, be careful, don't touch the koala, you know,

794
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: and they're telling me like a lot of people don't

795
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,879
Speaker 1: like koalas, which I learned that too, because you look

796
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, they're adorable, and people like, oh,

797
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,320
Speaker 1: they're so disgusting, and the hints that's where the chlamydia

798
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: came up. But yeah, so I learned koala's have never.

799
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 2: Heard of that. You never heard of that either, absolutely

800
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 2: never heard of that.

801
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: Everyone looked at me like I was a box of

802
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: rocks because I did not know that, and like, and

803
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: I will tell you all out there if you are

804
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,359
Speaker 1: interested in forensic science, it is okay to say you

805
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 1: don't know something. Uh you know, But yeah, I had

806
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: no clue. And so that was the focus on our conversation. Right,

807
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 1: So we started talking about tattoos and doing this podcast,

808
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 1: and then once I dropped the chlamydia bomb on you,

809
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: which could mean so many things out of context, yeah,

810
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: So that's what I learned about koalas and chlamydia. So

811
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: they apparently just eat, sleep and do that thing.

812
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 2: So there's and and there's human transmission. Is that that's

813
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 2: the That's why they're saying that you shouldn't be holding

814
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 2: them and stuff, like there's a way somehow, I mean,

815
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 2: because I'm not one hundred percent sure about the transmission

816
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 2: of it. I feel like it would have to be

817
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:40,439
Speaker 2: some kind of contact with an infected fluid into your

818
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 2: body this like the same way you would get it sexually, right,

819
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 2: So is that is that the concern? Like, you know

820
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 2: how they say you shouldn't handle reptiles because they carry

821
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 2: salmonella and a child could like touch their butt by

822
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 2: accident and put their hand in their mouth and then

823
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 2: all of a sudden. I mean, I guess in theory,

824
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 2: if if it, if the chlamydia somehow gets on your

825
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,879
Speaker 2: hand and then you rub that finger in your eye,

826
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 2: you could transmit it or I mean, I guess, I

827
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 2: don't know. Now I really want to look into this

828
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 2: because I'm really interesting because I just look at them

829
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 2: as like, oh I want one as a pet. They

830
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 2: look like cut a little bit of stuffed animals.

831
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, but cute little buggers. But yeah, I honestly don't know,

832
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: and I probably should have looked into this since I

833
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: knew we were going to go down this chlamydia road.

834
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know. But you know, I'm not

835
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: going to make out with the damn Koala, like, you know,

836
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: let's let let's not make it weird. I guess maybe

837
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: also because they have like those long little kloi things,

838
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 1: like maybe potentially they can scratch. But I don't know

839
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: anything about Koala to human transmission or if we can

840
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: transmit to them and make their lives worse. I have

841
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 1: no clue, but you know, because I was just so

842
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 1: overwhelmed with the fact that Koalas have commydia that I

843
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 1: just I still can't get past it.

844
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 2: I know I can't either. It's so crazy. Okay, So,

845
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 2: for those of you that don't know, you have an

846
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 2: excellent Instagram account that's Forensic Underscore Tattoo and you have

847
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 2: close to one hundred thousand followers, So like a lot

848
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,240
Speaker 2: of people are already into it, but can you explain

849
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,280
Speaker 2: to us, like what made you start this Instagram account

850
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: and what your experience has been with it?

851
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 1: So I was actually started to pick up, you know,

852
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 1: doing a lot of interviews, and one of the individuals

853
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: that interviewed me was like, watch on Instagram, and I

854
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:38,720
Speaker 1: was like, social media all for this shit? Sorry, but yeah,

855
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: So I created the Instagram account. And then I have

856
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 1: to thank you because you know, I'm just kind of

857
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 1: waiting out there, just wait, trying to navigate, you know,

858
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 1: social media as an adult is difficult, you know. And

859
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 1: so then you and I connected and that certainly helped,

860
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 1: and so I actually really love it. I have not

861
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 1: put in a very long time, and it's partly because

862
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 1: I've been so busy. I when I create my post,

863
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: when I curate them, I am a fat checker, Like

864
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 1: I don't like giving I like giving the most accurate

865
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: information I can, considering a lot of them come from

866
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: news sources and are very limited. So for me, it's

867
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: a lot of involvement to create a post right to

868
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 1: actually because I will check multiple sources. I like to

869
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: have more than three sources where they're at least consistently

870
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: consistently saying the same thing. But I can also use

871
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: that to my advantage because when someone says a tattoo

872
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 1: on the left shoulder, a tattoo on the right shoulder.

873
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: Then I'm like, look, even the media can't get it straight.

874
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: Or it's a tattoo of a dog, No it's a wolf, No,

875
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 1: it's this no, you know, so I can use that

876
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 1: to my advantage to say, look, I've checked all these things.

877
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,720
Speaker 1: Here's the consistent story. But notice that there's variation even

878
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 1: with the location or the description, which drives me crazy too,

879
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 1: because just post the damn pick sure of the tattoo, right,

880
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 1: don't give me like this like novella about your description

881
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 1: of it, because you heard it from a cop who

882
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 1: heard it from a detective who was at Autosi. Right.

883
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: So you get all these different, you know, accounts of

884
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: the tattoo, and sometimes it's difficult to even get the

885
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 1: photograph of the tattoo. But so I put a lot

886
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,839
Speaker 1: of time into my posts, and you know how it is,

887
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 1: you know, you write this nice, beautiful thing, and then

888
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,399
Speaker 1: people are annoyed at you because you didn't explain one

889
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 1: thing and they don't realize you have a word count,

890
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 1: you know. And then you know, most people are really

891
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 1: receptive and really interested, uh, you know, and then you

892
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 1: get people that just are like so sucky and you're

893
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 1: just like, come on, you know, like I'm doing the

894
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 1: best I can here. We're getting this information out, you know,

895
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 1: see the value of uh, you know, promoting the purpose

896
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: of tattoos or helping to disseminate this information so that

897
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 1: maybe this individual can be identified. So I do love Instagram,

898
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 1: you know, social media aspect of it, although I haven't

899
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 1: used it in a while. Maybe I'll be inspired, like

900
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 1: I'm looking, I guess for inspiration to make sure people

901
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: still want to hear my voice, you know, because sometimes

902
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: I feel like it's the echo chamber where I'm just like,

903
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:14,840
Speaker 1: tattoos are so great, let's use them. And then you know,

904
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 1: then I see like my followers decreased and I'm like, okay,

905
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: all right, no problem. So you know that's a little frustrating,

906
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,479
Speaker 1: but you know, hopefully the message is out there.

907
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 2: I could I understand that because I feel the same

908
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 2: exact way. But I think that there's been over the

909
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 2: past couple of years, there's been like a change in

910
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 2: Instagram that everybody can agree with. And it is like

911
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 2: I'm in the same boat, Like I put hours of

912
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 2: time into writing posts and stuff, and then it's like

913
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 2: they'll get posted nobody will see it, it'll get deleted

914
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 2: because it violates something that it doesn't really violate. It's

915
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 2: and it's it is stressful to the point where I mean,

916
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 2: in the past couple of years, I've just been like

917
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 2: not anywhere near on the level I used to be

918
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 2: on it because it's just like it's like a beat

919
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 2: down all the time. There's only so much you want

920
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 2: to deal with that, you know. But I do think

921
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,359
Speaker 2: that you should because I don't I even think like

922
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 2: you're saying the followers going down and stuff, that's like

923
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 2: all an Instagram problem. That's not like your content problem,

924
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 2: I personally feel because I've just I just saw a change,

925
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 2: and talking to other influencers and stuff, I think that

926
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 2: they see it as well across the board. So it's

927
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 2: it's not I think you should keep doing what you're doing,

928
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 2: because it's not that it's just I just think it's

929
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 2: like an Instagram problem, not a not a you problem.

930
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,359
Speaker 2: So I know, right, and I agree with you too.

931
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 2: With the negative experiences, it's always somebody's like number one,

932
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 2: you and I are humans, so it's like you will

933
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 2: make mistakes from time to time, even if it's just

934
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 2: like a simple spelling error or something, and then obviously,

935
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 2: like you'll spend hours writing up this whole thing, and

936
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 2: then some jark has to call you out and be like, yo,

937
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 2: but you didn't mention this, and you're like, yeah, I have,

938
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 2: like I don't even know what it is on Instagram

939
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 2: how many characters you're allowed to have now? But every

940
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 2: single time I write something, I have to like water

941
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 2: it down because, yeah, because you can't put everything, it's

942
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 2: not possible. And if you really like put the text

943
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 2: that's in an Instagram post in a word document, it's

944
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 2: like it's a small little paragraph, so you only could

945
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 2: fit so much stuff, yeah, in a post. So do

946
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 2: you have so you said you're not really posting on Instagram,

947
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 2: do you have any other social media that you're on

948
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 2: or you just kind of are like, I mean I

949
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 2: get it, because I'm over it too, but do you

950
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 2: do do stuff on like Twitter or anything?

951
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: I have a Twitter account, but you know, again, it's like,

952
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 1: you know, you put that stuff out in the ether,

953
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 1: and it just kind of like, I don't you know

954
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: what it is. I feel weird. I'm one of those

955
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 1: people that's like Twitter is like that person that opens

956
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 1: up their window and just yells something out to the world,

957
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:54,800
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like I always that always

958
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 1: stuck with me because I feel like it's just like,

959
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,400
Speaker 1: you know, you just say something and are people listening?

960
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 1: Are they not? Are they liking? Are they retweeting? Like

961
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 1: like it's just I don't know. I'm like, so, I

962
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 1: don't know. I'm not that kind of person that believe

963
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 1: it or not. Although I spent like half this time

964
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 1: talking about myself, I'm not that kind of person that

965
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: like just really likes to talk about myself or try

966
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 1: to bring extra attention to myself, you know when I

967
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 1: you know, you don't see me doing makeup tutorials and

968
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 1: then going I look at sims. Yeah, you know. So

969
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 1: it's not my jam to really be like that. So

970
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,320
Speaker 1: I do. Don't you love my extra long answers for everything?

971
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:34,320
Speaker 1: So No, I don't have a Twitter.

972
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 2: They're good, They're good.

973
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 1: I do have a Twitter account, but I don't really

974
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 1: use it because I like whatever I'm TikTok. I can't

975
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:47,399
Speaker 1: so as a forensic scientist, as someone who is in

976
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 1: a program, you know that is big on digital forensics

977
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 1: and digital forensic investigations, I'm like very personally wary of TikTok,

978
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 1: and I'm also like, I'm very cautious with you so

979
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: of computers and technologies anyway, you know, I don't want

980
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 1: all my information out there in general. But yeah, I

981
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 1: just can't be like dancing around be like, oh, let

982
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 1: me tell you about death today on TikTok. Yeah, I know, right,

983
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 1: it's so weird. I can't make it Google like I

984
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: can beat goofy or I could be you know, my

985
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 1: formal you know, doctor Miranda is talking about stuff. But

986
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 1: I mean, like to mix those two together and doing

987
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 1: the running ban while I'm talking about you know, like

988
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 1: a crime scene investigation is just like weird to me.

989
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: You know. So I haven't gone on the TikTok bandwig

990
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 1: and I pretty much just stick to Instagram and you know,

991
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 1: let it ride.

992
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:40,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I feel the same way. It's it's really gimmick,

993
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 2: like gimmicky. I can't. I can't do it either. I mean,

994
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 2: my daughter like made to TikTok for us, and she

995
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 2: deals with it. I don't even know how to log

996
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 2: into I don't know how to log into it. I

997
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 2: don't understand what it is, and I have no interest.

998
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 2: I'm just too old. But all right, So you are

999
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 2: an associate professor in the Center for Criminal Justice Studies

1000
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 2: farming Dale State College or College State University of New York.

1001
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 2: When did you When did you start working there?

1002
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:12,800
Speaker 1: So I think I've been there for like twelve years

1003
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 1: now roughly.

1004
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 2: Well that's that's impressive.

1005
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1006
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:22,359
Speaker 2: And and so you you're a professor of students. What what's this?

1007
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,240
Speaker 2: Do you have students from all different majors or what

1008
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 2: what is the typical major of a person that you're

1009
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:30,280
Speaker 2: teaching at the school.

1010
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 1: So most of my students are criminal justice. A lot

1011
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 1: of them want to go into law enforcement. But you know,

1012
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: as we see the changing tide with criminal justice and policing,

1013
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 1: we've seen a lot more students that are interested in

1014
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 1: something else other than policing or law enforcement. You know,

1015
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 1: they say, you know, I know, criminal justice is where

1016
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 1: I want to be, I just don't know where. And

1017
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,399
Speaker 1: so some of them may want to go into law,

1018
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 1: some of them may want to go into like victim

1019
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 1: services working with victims or survivors, juvenile delinquency, or even

1020
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 1: you know, probation parole, like the back end. So we're seeing, like,

1021
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:12,839
Speaker 1: you know, this changing tide of the criminal justice student landscape,

1022
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: but it's kind of cool. At first, I was like, ah,

1023
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,400
Speaker 1: I'm like a forensic scientist. I should be in a

1024
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 1: lab and doing science and have my little microscopes and

1025
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 1: my spectrometers, and I should be just analyzing evidence with

1026
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 1: students all day. So when I went into a criminal

1027
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: justice program, I was like, but I actually really enjoy

1028
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 1: it because I can teach the criminal justice students, like

1029
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,720
Speaker 1: I mentioned before the Sydney Declaration, and I mentioned before

1030
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 1: like my thoughts on crime scene investigation, which again is

1031
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 1: a whole other topic, but I can teach them the

1032
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:50,279
Speaker 1: importance of like critical thinking and problem solving and how

1033
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 1: important that can be to the work that they do

1034
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:56,280
Speaker 1: if they become a detective. Right, So what is criminal

1035
00:56:56,280 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 1: investigation entail? What is crime scene investigation and reconstruction tail?

1036
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 1: When should you say, I don't know, I need to

1037
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 1: call in a forensic expert, whether it be a scientist

1038
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: or a pathologist, or even a more specialized expert, whether

1039
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 1: it's an entomologist or anthropologist. But giving these individuals the

1040
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 1: opportunity to like be or go into law enforcement, possibly

1041
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:21,960
Speaker 1: be detectives one day, possibly be bosses, and for them

1042
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 1: to be a little bit more cautious with how they

1043
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 1: address the crime scene, you know, is something that I

1044
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 1: really enjoy teaching, and I hope that they take that

1045
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: with them and then remember like Maranda told me not

1046
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 1: to touch this, you know, like Marenna told me to

1047
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 1: call in the expert.

1048
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 2: You know.

1049
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 1: So hopefully, you know, they'll take those lessons away with them,

1050
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 1: you know. And so that's been pretty cool to work

1051
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 1: with criminal justice students.

1052
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's important to have a teacher like

1053
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 2: you in college because you you also, like when I

1054
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 2: remember when I was in school and I first started

1055
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:57,640
Speaker 2: seeing that I was interested in the microscope and stuff.

1056
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 2: It's like you have some biology teachers that went to

1057
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 2: school for biology and then they just became professors and then.

1058
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 2: But my one teacher was a microbiologist that worked in

1059
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 2: a hospital, and she was the most She was like

1060
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 2: a pivotal person in my life and my career because

1061
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 2: she had so much experience, like working in the real

1062
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 2: world and kind of guiding me towards towards like what

1063
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 2: I wanted to do based upon like what I was

1064
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 2: telling her I liked. So it's awesome to have a

1065
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 2: teacher like you because you have so much experience from

1066
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 2: so many different areas of the field, and I think

1067
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 2: you're making like a huge impact on their life. You probably, like,

1068
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 2: are just sit back and say whatever. I don't think

1069
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 2: I do, but they they probably just think that you're awesome.

1070
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 2: I'm sure because I would love to have a teacher

1071
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:52,439
Speaker 2: like you obviously. So I know that I know you're

1072
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 2: an expert in tattoos. But do you have any tattoos yourself?

1073
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 1: Yes, So of my tattoos you cannot see when I'm

1074
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 1: wearing clothes. Most of my tattoos are on my neck

1075
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 1: and my back, you know, all the rest of the

1076
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:13,640
Speaker 1: song goes, I'm just yeah, that's me with like a

1077
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 1: you know, my my good old dad joke. So yeah,

1078
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 1: most of my tattoos are located on my back, my side,

1079
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 1: and a couple on my wrists. Yeah, so I am.

1080
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:25,440
Speaker 1: I am officially tattooed.

1081
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 2: Did you have them before you started all of this

1082
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 2: research in this field or you you've gotten them more recently?

1083
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 1: Uh? So I did. I was tattooed before I started

1084
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 1: my research, and then from there I started to I

1085
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:46,120
Speaker 1: did get a tattoo for my research. So I got

1086
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 1: a tattoo on my wrist that was specifically designed based

1087
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 1: upon the the ice Maiden found mummified remains of a

1088
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 1: female that was believed to be high ranking in her society.

1089
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 1: So I did get her tattoo on my wrist, and

1090
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:08,680
Speaker 1: I added color to it so that I could actually

1091
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 1: look at it under the microscope with the instrumentation I

1092
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 1: wanted to see, yeah, if I could blast it with

1093
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:17,439
Speaker 1: the laser and actually detect the pigments in my skin.

1094
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 1: So I did get that for my research, and then

1095
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 1: the other ones have kind of been linked. When I

1096
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:28,200
Speaker 1: got my book, you know, I tattooed something very large

1097
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 1: for when my book came out, when I finished my PhD.

1098
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 1: And then I've gotten sort of things that are linked

1099
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 1: to some of the other publications and work that I've done,

1100
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: so a lot of them. Again, we were talking about

1101
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 1: like meaning and interpretation. You know, I believe sometimes that

1102
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 1: tattoo is just a tattoo, right, Sometimes you just pick

1103
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 1: something out, You're like, that's cool, I just want it.

1104
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 1: But for me, my tattoos, a lot of them have

1105
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 1: you know, meaning to me that other people may not

1106
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 1: get and probably would think, you know, sociopath, I guess

1107
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 1: because if you have like skill or weird things on

1108
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 1: your body, you know, something wrong with you, according to

1109
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 1: you know, some society people. But yeah, so I do

1110
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 1: have a lot of tattoos, and they've kind of been little,

1111
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 1: you know, milestones in my career that have been important

1112
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 1: to me.

1113
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's cool. I have like a combination of both.

1114
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 2: And another thing too, is like what you would pick

1115
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 2: at some age, because I got my first tattoo when

1116
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 2: I was fifteen, I think fifteen or sixteen, and then

1117
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 2: started getting most of my tattoos when I was in

1118
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 2: my late teens and early twenties, which I probably wouldn't

1119
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 2: get the same things today. But I have a mixture

1120
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:41,040
Speaker 2: of like, Okay, I just think butterflies are cool and

1121
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 2: I have a lot of them, and then I have

1122
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 2: other ones that are super meaningful, So I get that

1123
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:46,479
Speaker 2: that's cool.

1124
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 1: And you did did you do? I'm sorry, I'm totally

1125
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 1: cutting you off. Now I'm going to interview you. Now

1126
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 1: you did some blacking now too.

1127
01:01:55,280 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's just a whole It was just the

1128
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:02,680
Speaker 2: only reason that I did it is because my leg

1129
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:06,080
Speaker 2: tattoos have just started when I was seventeen and just

1130
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:07,960
Speaker 2: tried to fix it and tried to fix it and

1131
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 2: just made it progressively worse. So then I started, I

1132
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I'll just black out my whole leg,

1133
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 2: and I got half of it done and then I

1134
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 2: never finished it, and instead I should have probably just

1135
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:20,280
Speaker 2: attempted to get it lasered. Maybe I don't know. And

1136
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 2: now it's I don't even want to think about lasering

1137
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 2: that much skin, so I just kind of leave it alone. Yeah,

1138
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:32,280
Speaker 2: I'm just over it. I had three kids natural childbirth.

1139
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 2: I'm just like, I'm old and I'm over being in

1140
01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 2: pain anymore. Like I just don't I just need a

1141
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 2: break for right now. I haven't gotten tattooed in a while.

1142
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 2: It's just and I don't know if I ever told

1143
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 2: you know, I have like that weird skin thing that

1144
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:47,760
Speaker 2: I end up getting with the sun exposure. And I

1145
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:50,320
Speaker 2: also from time to time get asthma attacks when I

1146
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 2: get tattooed, and I don't know, I don't know what

1147
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:56,479
Speaker 2: that's about. But that's another concern, Like do I really

1148
01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:59,320
Speaker 2: need to be I mean, whatever if I have to

1149
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 2: take the nebula. But like there was a couple of

1150
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:03,440
Speaker 2: times I had to go to the emergency room because

1151
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 2: I just I couldn't. I couldn't make it go away

1152
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 2: by myself. And I thought that that was kind of

1153
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 2: a little ridiculous to be going having to go to

1154
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 2: the emergency room for asthma because I'm getting tattooed. It's

1155
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 2: I have kids and stuff. It's just like it's not

1156
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:22,720
Speaker 2: it's not worth it to me. I know, right, It's

1157
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 2: just and I'm just I'm just over it. It's like

1158
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 2: it's just been all my life. I'm just over it.

1159
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:33,400
Speaker 2: Since we're both women that work in this this kind

1160
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 2: of creepy field of death, and I personally think that

1161
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 2: we're both very normal people, but people think that we're

1162
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 2: weird because we like to be around dead people or whatever.

1163
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:49,440
Speaker 2: So what are what Obviously you're a person and everybody

1164
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:51,880
Speaker 2: thinks that you should you know, you should wear black

1165
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:54,760
Speaker 2: all the time and and just you're always into death

1166
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:57,360
Speaker 2: and skulls and everything. But like, what are some things

1167
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:01,040
Speaker 2: that you like to do outside of forensic set that

1168
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 2: maybe could be a little bit more relatable to the

1169
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:04,760
Speaker 2: average woman.

1170
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:08,280
Speaker 1: All Right, so I will I will check those boxes

1171
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 1: of Yeah, I love to wear black. As you can see,

1172
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:15,240
Speaker 1: I'm dressed very brightly right now, where gray, But yeah,

1173
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:18,480
Speaker 1: I do like uh, you know, long walks in the cemetery.

1174
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:24,240
Speaker 1: But uh, I love to travel. Travel is like really

1175
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 1: important to me, especially since COVID. I love uh seeing

1176
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:31,440
Speaker 1: the world, and I do actually love visiting cemeteries in

1177
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 1: other countries to see like you know, how people treat

1178
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 1: the dead. Uh, you know how people decorate and the

1179
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 1: symbolism of like, you know, tombstone. So I do have

1180
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:42,520
Speaker 1: that little creepy side of me. You know that's added

1181
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 1: to my travel. Uh. I like to travel. I like

1182
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 1: to shop. I'm fipping girl, No, I like the older

1183
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 1: I get. Like I keep going through these phases where

1184
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, instead of having more of like cheaper stuff,

1185
01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 1: I want less of more expensive stuff. Does that make sense?

1186
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1187
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:05,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I find myself, you know, treating myself more

1188
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:09,160
Speaker 1: than I probably should. But like if I do a

1189
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:11,240
Speaker 1: little you know, if I do some good work, I'm like,

1190
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 1: let me go to channel. I do really like that.

1191
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 1: I like, you know, I'm like an art nerd. I'm

1192
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 1: like a fashion nerd. I know it sounds like super

1193
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 1: bizarre because like I would not wear like half the

1194
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 1: things that I like, love and see, but like, I

1195
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:30,200
Speaker 1: don't know, it's a very weird quirky things. Uh, but uh,

1196
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:33,400
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of something I would do that's

1197
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 1: very What's some girly What's a girlly thing I do?

1198
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 2: Just like you don't knit every night or so just

1199
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:43,000
Speaker 2: I don't even mean that, Like I don't. I don't

1200
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:45,240
Speaker 2: really do. I don't do anything like that either, but

1201
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:49,280
Speaker 2: just like I like gardening and I like taking care

1202
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 2: of my plants, just like other stuff that. But obviously

1203
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 2: I feel the same way. Like we we travel, not

1204
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:57,920
Speaker 2: not internationally, but we take road trips a lot. And

1205
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:00,320
Speaker 2: every single time I go on a road trip, I'm

1206
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 2: always like, Okay, what who got murdered here? And like

1207
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 2: what could I write about this? You know? So I

1208
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:09,120
Speaker 2: mean there's definitely that. And then I bring my kids

1209
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:11,080
Speaker 2: and my husband along too because they're on the trip

1210
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:13,040
Speaker 2: with me. So I'm like, we have to we have

1211
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 2: to go on this haunted tour dinners. Yeah, exactly. Are

1212
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:21,920
Speaker 2: you working on any other projects right now? I know

1213
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:24,640
Speaker 2: you just got done doing this big lecture, so you're

1214
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 2: probably just like trying to chill after that big trip

1215
01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:27,800
Speaker 2: and everything.

1216
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:31,280
Speaker 1: I am always I'm one of those people that's always on,

1217
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:34,960
Speaker 1: like I always am and am writing or looking at

1218
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:39,280
Speaker 1: stuff like I am that, like I like fusing like

1219
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:41,760
Speaker 1: forensic science and pop culture and like I mentioned earlier,

1220
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 1: like forensic science at art. So I'm like one of

1221
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 1: those people that, like I watch a movie or a

1222
01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 1: new TV show like Okay, they just came out like

1223
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 1: the full of the House of Usher, right, So I'm

1224
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:51,400
Speaker 1: like watching that show and I always am constantly like

1225
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:55,320
Speaker 1: trying to break it down, see like the elements of it, horror,

1226
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:57,480
Speaker 1: forensic sign you know, where does it all tie in

1227
01:06:57,560 --> 01:07:00,800
Speaker 1: and stuff. So for projects right now now, I'm doing

1228
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:05,680
Speaker 1: some more you know, wacky pop culture stuff and always

1229
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:08,760
Speaker 1: tattoo stuff is always something that's just gonna be with

1230
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:11,800
Speaker 1: me forever. You know, I have some grad students doing

1231
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:15,880
Speaker 1: research and I guess, h you know, you've inspired me.

1232
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 1: So maybe I should start making some more Instagram posts

1233
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:20,760
Speaker 1: and get back into that gig, because you know, I

1234
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:25,680
Speaker 1: do like sharing that knowledge. But yeah, I am trying

1235
01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:27,440
Speaker 1: to take a little bit of a breather for like

1236
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:30,600
Speaker 1: the holiday, and then once like January hits, I'll be

1237
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:34,080
Speaker 1: back hitting the ground running with some crazy wacky ideas

1238
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:36,080
Speaker 1: of I don't know whatever.

1239
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:40,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, this the social media thing is like one thing

1240
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:42,440
Speaker 2: like a tip I could give to you that I

1241
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:45,280
Speaker 2: find useful is like I do a thing called Mystery

1242
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:48,160
Speaker 2: Diagnosis and I call it like Mystery Monday, and it

1243
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:51,840
Speaker 2: forces me to do it every single Monday, because I'm like,

1244
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:54,640
Speaker 2: I can't push this off till tomorrow. It's not Monday.

1245
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:57,720
Speaker 2: It has to be done on Monday. And I'm pretty

1246
01:07:57,760 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 2: I take off a couple of times a year, like

1247
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:01,720
Speaker 2: for Chris Smith or something, but for the most part,

1248
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:04,480
Speaker 2: it's like, all right, I'm gonna make this commitment that

1249
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:07,440
Speaker 2: every single Monday I'm posting, and it just it works

1250
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:11,880
Speaker 2: because it's there's no there's no procrastination allowed with it

1251
01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:16,040
Speaker 2: because it is. It is annoying, trust me. But all right,

1252
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:19,320
Speaker 2: So we could find you and we're gonna push people

1253
01:08:19,320 --> 01:08:21,560
Speaker 2: there because we and that's going to force you to

1254
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:29,080
Speaker 2: start posting more at Forensic Underscore Tattoo. And also, I

1255
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 2: just got your book. I don't know why I don't

1256
01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:33,519
Speaker 2: have it yet, but I don't, but I just got it.

1257
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:35,320
Speaker 2: It's on the way. So then I'm gonna have to

1258
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:37,760
Speaker 2: be forced to actually meet you in person, and so

1259
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:40,280
Speaker 2: you could sign it for me. But it's called Forensic

1260
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:43,599
Speaker 2: Analysis of Tattoos and Tattoo Incs. And it was on

1261
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:45,800
Speaker 2: Amazon and it was on eBay and stuff. So I

1262
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:49,320
Speaker 2: think any person that's interested in forensics should get it.

1263
01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:53,639
Speaker 2: I'm I'm really excited to see it because obviously I'm

1264
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 2: into tattoos and I'm into forensic so I think it'll

1265
01:08:57,240 --> 01:09:01,720
Speaker 2: be awesome. I can't wait. Is there anything else you

1266
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:03,960
Speaker 2: want to tell anybody or not.

1267
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 1: It's been great spending time with you. It's always a

1268
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:06,519
Speaker 1: good time.

1269
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks so much for being here today. It was

1270
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 2: It was really great, and I hope that we get

1271
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:15,120
Speaker 2: to hear more from you because I think that you

1272
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:19,800
Speaker 2: have so much to offer women in forensics and it's

1273
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:22,160
Speaker 2: just it's just really great what you're doing.

1274
01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:25,479
Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, there's there's layers here, but you know,

1275
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:29,559
Speaker 1: I think I think that women should be you know,

1276
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 1: pushing it a little bit and you know, get out

1277
01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:35,400
Speaker 1: there and you know, do and you know, it doesn't

1278
01:09:35,439 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 1: necessarily have to be a DNA like we find a

1279
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:40,919
Speaker 1: lot of females in the DNA field, but go into traces,

1280
01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 1: go into microscopy, go into investigations, you know, and crimecy reconstructions,

1281
01:09:47,080 --> 01:09:50,479
Speaker 1: and push push the envelope there a little bit, you know,

1282
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:54,080
Speaker 1: when you google a lot of forensic science heroes, you know,

1283
01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:57,040
Speaker 1: you see a lot of the traditional, you know, white

1284
01:09:57,040 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 1: male faces come back at you, you know, so would

1285
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:01,960
Speaker 1: like it would be good to see some more women

1286
01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:05,280
Speaker 1: really pushing it with forensic science in the field and

1287
01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:08,080
Speaker 1: with research, and so that's what I'd really love to see.

1288
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:12,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's hard because it's just it's just people.

1289
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:16,080
Speaker 2: People don't know. And that's and interviews like this are

1290
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:19,280
Speaker 2: great because it's just like another job you could learn

1291
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:21,800
Speaker 2: about that you can do if you have interest in it.

1292
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:24,439
Speaker 2: So thank you again so much for being here today.

1293
01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:25,960
Speaker 1: All welcome. It was great to see you.

1294
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:35,720
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Mother nos Death. As a reminder,

1295
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:39,720
Speaker 2: my training is as a pathologists assistant. I have a

1296
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:44,120
Speaker 2: master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.

1297
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:47,400
Speaker 2: I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed

1298
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:51,120
Speaker 2: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of

1299
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 2: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social

1300
01:10:56,400 --> 01:10:59,840
Speaker 2: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based

1301
01:10:59,880 --> 01:11:03,880
Speaker 2: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make

1302
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:08,759
Speaker 2: healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember

1303
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:11,919
Speaker 2: that science is changing every day, and the opinions expressed

1304
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 2: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those

1305
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:18,360
Speaker 2: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having

1306
01:11:18,439 --> 01:11:22,400
Speaker 2: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a

1307
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:26,800
Speaker 2: medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent

1308
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:31,559
Speaker 2: care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and

1309
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 2: subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or

1310
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:48,439
Speaker 2: anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks