Speaker 1: Do you ever feel like life is just one problem
Speaker 1: after another. You finally feel like maybe there's a break,
Speaker 1: and then bam, another problem. This is how it is
Speaker 1: for many of us. But there is a better way
Speaker 1: to respond, a way of responding that brings greater ease
Speaker 1: into your life and returns some of the energy that
Speaker 1: the problems drained from you. We are hosting a free
Speaker 1: live masterclass on Sunday, March third, called Learn the Keystone
Speaker 1: Habit to unlock energy and ease in your life. In it,
Speaker 1: I will teach you how to tap into resources already
Speaker 1: within you so that life feels less like a never
Speaker 1: ending fight and more like an ever evolving dance. You
Speaker 1: will learn the number one source of unhappiness that drains
Speaker 1: your energy and keeps you feeling stuck, and a simple
Speaker 1: mindset shift you can make right away so that life
Speaker 1: doesn't feel like such a constant struggle. This will be
Speaker 1: a live event and you'll have a chance to interact
Speaker 1: with me and each other. I've really grown to love
Speaker 1: these community events where we get to meet each other
Speaker 1: and deepen our connections, and I hope that you can
Speaker 1: become part of that. Go to oneufeed dot net slash
Speaker 1: live to learn more and register for this free event. Again,
Speaker 1: that's one you feed dot net slash live. I hope
Speaker 1: to see you there.
Speaker 2: Take the time to acknowledge the small things you're doing
Speaker 2: throughout the day that are reflective of you caring for
Speaker 2: yourself in a loving way. And the reason I recommend
Speaker 2: that even if it's five seconds, even if it's ten seconds,
Speaker 2: you're putting your hands on your heart and you're thinking,
Speaker 2: this is me loving myself right now as I brush
Speaker 2: my teeth.
Speaker 3: Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers
Speaker 3: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
Speaker 3: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 3: think ring true. And yet for many of us, our
Speaker 3: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 3: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 3: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 3: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 3: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent
Speaker 3: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 3: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 3: the right direction, how they feed their good Wolf, thanks
Speaker 3: for joining us. Back on the show today is Scott Stabil,
Speaker 3: whose inspirational posts and videos have attracted a huge and
Speaker 3: devoted social media following. His Previous works include Just Love, Iris,
Speaker 3: and the Lil Pet Hospital series. Scott also wrote the
Speaker 3: feature film The Oogie Loves in the Big Ballroom Adventure.
Speaker 3: He's a speaker and love advocate and runs day long
Speaker 3: empowerment workshops nationally and internationally. Today, Eric and Scott discuss
Speaker 3: his new book Enough as You Are.
Speaker 2: Hi, Scott, welcome back, Hey Eric, Thank you so much. Man.
Speaker 2: Happy to be here.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was saying before we start, I'm not sure how
Speaker 1: many times we've had you on, but it's.
Speaker 2: Been least three, at least three, and.
Speaker 1: I don't know whether one of those was for like
Speaker 1: a short episode or I don't know, but it's been
Speaker 1: a number of times and I have always enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: So when I saw you had a new book coming out,
Speaker 1: I was thrilled to be able to get to have
Speaker 1: you back on.
Speaker 5: Oh.
Speaker 2: I so appreciate it. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So we'll start in the way to which you
Speaker 1: are accustomed, which is I'm going to read that parable
Speaker 1: and ask you what you think about it, and I
Speaker 1: have no idea what you said any of the other times,
Speaker 1: and probably no one else does either, So whatever, all right?
Speaker 1: In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with a
Speaker 1: grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves
Speaker 1: inside of us that are always at battle. One is
Speaker 1: a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery
Speaker 1: and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which
Speaker 1: represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the
Speaker 1: grandchild stops think about it for a second. They look
Speaker 1: up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins,
Speaker 1: And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to start off by asking you what that parable
Speaker 1: means to you in your life and in the work
Speaker 1: that you do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in this moment, as I'm hearing you recant that
Speaker 2: what I'm feeling is the essence of the work I'm
Speaker 2: doing the most right now, which is built around self
Speaker 2: acceptance and self love. So for me, as I hear
Speaker 2: the parable, it's loving the good wolf and the bad wolf,
Speaker 2: understanding that no matter what is coming through, no matter
Speaker 2: what compulsions, desires, thoughts, feelings, words, that is within our
Speaker 2: power to show up for ourselves with love, with grace,
Speaker 2: with compassion, And the more often we do that, I
Speaker 2: find that the more inclined we are to make choices
Speaker 2: that are more in line with love and kindness and
Speaker 2: compassion and all of the quote unquote good Wolf ways
Speaker 2: of being. Because for me, love is just energy, and
Speaker 2: it's an energy that is alive within us and outside
Speaker 2: of us, and it is a pure positive energy in
Speaker 2: my experience, which means it is always in service to everything.
Speaker 2: So I know that I'm human and that part of
Speaker 2: my Can we swear on this show or I don't remember?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it happens to turn it into an
Speaker 1: Andrew Dice Clay rematch, But in general, yes, occasional.
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you, just so I know, yeah, okay, no,
Speaker 2: But in general, it's understanding that sometimes we show up
Speaker 2: like a jerk, you know, Sometimes we show up without compassion.
Speaker 2: Sometimes we make choices that are clearly not the healthiest
Speaker 2: for us. And can we still, rather than shaming ourselves
Speaker 2: for these choices, is for these actions, recognize that shame
Speaker 2: is not the thing that's ever going to lead to healing,
Speaker 2: and that is within us to love ourselves no matter what.
Speaker 2: So I want to love both wolves and trust that
Speaker 2: by giving my love to both, I'm naturally going to
Speaker 2: be energizing the good wolf more often.
Speaker 1: So I love that idea obviously of self love and
Speaker 1: for me self compassion self love. Learning to do that
Speaker 1: for myself, forgive myself has been one of the most
Speaker 1: important things that I have possibly done for my own
Speaker 1: well being, and it is a very difficult thing to
Speaker 1: do at points, right. Absolutely, you know, it's interesting, like
Speaker 1: if you read the science on affirmations, right, it appears
Speaker 1: that affirmations seem to help the people most who don't
Speaker 1: actually really need them because they kind of already believe
Speaker 1: they're awesome. Absolutely, when you don't, a lot of this
Speaker 1: stuff of trying to love our selves or be self
Speaker 1: compassionate feels really really difficult. Like in my Spiritual Habits program,
Speaker 1: self compassion is one of the core attributes because, like you,
Speaker 1: I believe it underlies everything else that we do right
Speaker 1: without it, when we don't live up to whatever it
Speaker 1: is we're trying to do. And in my program, it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, practice spiritual principles more in our lives, and
Speaker 1: when we don't do that, if we don't have self
Speaker 1: compassion as a base. We just have another thing to
Speaker 1: feel bad about. And that's not the goal, absolutely, but
Speaker 1: it is also the thing that most consistently people say.
Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying, I know, and yet I
Speaker 1: can't seem to feel it. The voices keep coming that
Speaker 1: tell me I'm bad. The shame is embedded.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: What I'm hoping is that you can, in five seconds
Speaker 1: give us a tip that will dispel all of that
Speaker 1: once and for all. If this, if that's in this book,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna recommend it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I know it's a long term process, right, but I
Speaker 1: would just love to hear when you must hear people
Speaker 1: say the same thing to you, given how much you
Speaker 1: write about self love and self forgiveness and self compassion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I agree with everything you're saying one
Speaker 2: hundred percent. And for me, what it comes down to
Speaker 2: often is just about bringing more honest awareness to the
Speaker 2: choices I am making in my life and taking the
Speaker 2: time to acknowledge those that are actually aligned with self love.
Speaker 2: I think we take for granted a lot of the
Speaker 2: things that we do for ourselves, and I'll give you
Speaker 2: very basic examples, like brushing our teeth or cooking food,
Speaker 2: that tastes good, or putting on clothes in which we
Speaker 2: feel good moving through the world. Every time we're doing
Speaker 2: these things, we're actually acting in alignment with self love.
Speaker 2: We're taking care of ourselves in a very specific way.
Speaker 2: And for me, one of my practices that has helped
Speaker 2: me a lot is just not taking all of those
Speaker 2: choices for granted, in part because I give a lot
Speaker 2: of work on self love and I meet a lot
Speaker 2: of people who tell me they don't know how to
Speaker 2: love themselves, and I feel that we actually are loving ourselves,
Speaker 2: we're just not acknowledging it. And so one thing I
Speaker 2: would recommend to people is it may sound corny. I
Speaker 2: fear it's gonna sound corny to some, but it has
Speaker 2: helped me is just take the time to acknowledge the
Speaker 2: small things you're doing throughout the day that are reflective
Speaker 2: of you caring for yourself in a loving way. And
Speaker 2: the reason I recommend that is then we're living even
Speaker 2: if it's five seconds, even if it's ten seconds, you're
Speaker 2: putting your hands on your heart and you're thinking, this
Speaker 2: is me loving myself right now as I brush my teeth.
Speaker 2: You know I could go through the day without doing that.
Speaker 2: This is me loving myself right now as I prepare
Speaker 2: this meal, this beautiful food for myself and for me.
Speaker 2: What that naturally does, because I do see everything as energy,
Speaker 2: and energy does generate momentum. The more we're carving out
Speaker 2: these moments one, the less time we're mired in self
Speaker 2: abuse and this idea that or not worthy. Even ten
Speaker 2: seconds of connecting to the gratitude for care is ten
Speaker 2: seconds less of I'm a piece of crap, right, and
Speaker 2: that matters. And then also I feel like these choices
Speaker 2: invite more opportunities for self love and self care because
Speaker 2: in general, what we're committing to is the acknowledgment and
Speaker 2: the intention around loving ourselves. I want to speak to
Speaker 2: affirmations as well, because I'm someone who uses affirmations in
Speaker 2: my life. But what I discovered for myself is what
Speaker 2: you were speaking to. Is It's one thing to say
Speaker 2: I love myself just as I am, But if that's
Speaker 2: not my truth, if that's not what I'm actually feeling
Speaker 2: my experience is what I'm feeling in that moment is
Speaker 2: always going to trump the words that are just coming
Speaker 2: out of my mouth. So I can't love myself with words.
Speaker 2: If what I'm feeling inside is self loathing. But what
Speaker 2: I can do in my affirmations and what I encourage
Speaker 2: people to do, is to land on the most honest
Speaker 2: statement that you can make. So if I can't honestly
Speaker 2: say in this moment, I love myself as I am,
Speaker 2: can I honestly say I am willing to love myself
Speaker 2: as I am. I am willing to give energy to
Speaker 2: the practice of self love and self care. And if
Speaker 2: that feels honest, if that stands true in your body,
Speaker 2: that is a statement. I feel like that will be
Speaker 2: helpful because it also reflects self love. Even if you're
Speaker 2: not able to say I love myself, being willing to
Speaker 2: being willing to give energy to it is the same thing.
Speaker 2: It's all about the energy of you getting in a
Speaker 2: more harmonious relationship with yourself. Another thing I would say
Speaker 2: to what you brought up is that it's never too
Speaker 2: late with everything, not just with self love. I feel like,
Speaker 2: if you've spent thirty years of your life mired in
Speaker 2: self loathing, but there is a part of you right
Speaker 2: now that wants to create a different relationship with yourself,
Speaker 2: even if you don't know how, I do know that
Speaker 2: it is always what you do from this moment on
Speaker 2: that's going to matter the most, which is to say
Speaker 2: that the choices you make, the practices you integrate, the
Speaker 2: podcast you choose to listen to, the way you're choosing
Speaker 2: to talk with yourself and be with yourself is going
Speaker 2: to impact what you do from this moment on. And
Speaker 2: in my experience, self love has proven to just to
Speaker 2: be a skill, and like any other skill, the more
Speaker 2: you practice at it, the better you become at it.
Speaker 2: That's what I believe. So and the things I'm saying,
Speaker 2: I feel like they can be applied to any sort
Speaker 2: of spiritual presure, right, even beyond just self love. We're
Speaker 2: talking about the journey of growth, the journey of healing, right,
Speaker 2: And I also want to speak to the shaming aspect
Speaker 2: because that's a very real thing that happens for many
Speaker 2: of us on this spiritual path. We end up judging
Speaker 2: ourselves against a more evolved version of ourselves that doesn't
Speaker 2: yet exist. So we're judging ourselves against a fictionalized version
Speaker 2: of who I am. And I've done this a thousand
Speaker 2: times over as someone who's been on a spiritual path,
Speaker 2: was in a cult, was chasing enlightenment and was continuously
Speaker 2: shaming myself because I wasn't living the life of the
Speaker 2: enlightened version of Scott that has never existed and may
Speaker 2: never exist. And part of and I think this is
Speaker 2: the essence of a lot of the writings in Enough
Speaker 2: As You Are. What I've come to learn is that
Speaker 2: it is within me to honor my humanity, which is
Speaker 2: to say, to remind myself consistently that I am human
Speaker 2: when I am not showing up and making healthy choices,
Speaker 2: when I'm not looking in the mirror and thinking I
Speaker 2: look beautiful, but looking at all the spots I'd like
Speaker 2: to change. All of this is a part of our
Speaker 2: human conditioning, right, and so I'm less interested in transcending
Speaker 2: my conditioning, though I am interested in that as much
Speaker 2: as possible, also understanding I may never transcend some of
Speaker 2: the conditioning because it's so deeply rooted. But even beyond that,
Speaker 2: what I'm interested in is offering myself grace when I'm
Speaker 2: unable to transcend my conditioning, to remind myself this too
Speaker 2: is human. Every other human being on the planet with
Speaker 2: a human mind has been conditioned in similar ways and
Speaker 2: is struggling with all of these same things, and it
Speaker 2: is entirely okay that you are where you are with them.
Speaker 2: So instead of doing the shaming thing or feeling I
Speaker 2: don't look at my spiritual path as pressure anymore to
Speaker 2: achieve something. So I'm not putting that pressure on myself
Speaker 2: that you were speaking to and then feeling disheartened by
Speaker 2: my inability to show up the way I would want to. Instead,
Speaker 2: the practice that I'm doing is I'm approaching all of
Speaker 2: this with a bit more curiosity and a bit more nonchalance.
Speaker 2: And so for me, what that looks it's like is
Speaker 2: when my mind is doing its insane dance yet again,
Speaker 2: trying to tell me I'm a piece of crap and
Speaker 2: worthless and all the things that my mind wants to
Speaker 2: tell me. Instead of internalizing those things the way I
Speaker 2: used to do, I kind of look at it now
Speaker 2: with this, Oh, okay, that's interesting that this is what
Speaker 2: my mind is doing right now, and like why is
Speaker 2: my mind doing? Like bringing a sense of curiosity and
Speaker 2: a sense of nonchalance and an understanding that every other
Speaker 2: mind on the planet is doing this also has helped
Speaker 2: me feel a lot more okay with my own insanity.
Speaker 1: There's so many different things you said in there that
Speaker 1: we could touch on. I mean the phrase that and
Speaker 1: I don't know where I heard it, but what we
Speaker 1: practice we strengthen is a really powerful idea, and you
Speaker 1: touched on that in all aspects, right, every little thing.
Speaker 1: And this idea of looking at the ways we are
Speaker 1: practicing self love is interesting because I had a conversation
Speaker 1: I went on. I joined a hiking group, and I
Speaker 1: went on a hiking conversation of that day and just
Speaker 1: ended up with a PhD in psychology next to me, amazingly,
Speaker 1: and so we could have talked for thirty hours. But
Speaker 1: one of the things we ended up on as we
Speaker 1: were talking about, you know, how people actually change behavior,
Speaker 1: and we landed on this topic he believes is fundamental,
Speaker 1: which is around identity. It shows up in behavior change
Speaker 1: literature of many different kinds. The example that's often gived
Speaker 1: is let's say you're trying to quit smoking and you're
Speaker 1: standing outside and somebody comes up and offers you a cigarette.
Speaker 1: If you say no thanks, I'm trying to quit, that's
Speaker 1: one thing. If, on the other hand, you say no thanks,
Speaker 1: I don't smoke, that's an identity you've taken on as
Speaker 1: a non smoker. Now, the obvious problem with that is
Speaker 1: what if you're not living into that identity? Right, So
Speaker 1: it's like, all right, I want to see myself as
Speaker 1: a person who moves my body every day. Like that's
Speaker 1: actually how I see myself. I'm a person who moves
Speaker 1: my body every day and at every opportunity because I
Speaker 1: know it's good for me. But if I'm not doing that,
Speaker 1: I mean, I've got years of sort of reinforcing that behavior.
Speaker 1: It's an easy identity, but very early on, you know,
Speaker 1: may not be doing that. Or if you're trying to
Speaker 1: quit smoking, you may be sort of successful and sort
Speaker 1: of not successful, so your identity doesn't quite line up.
Speaker 1: And he said something very similar to what you said.
Speaker 1: He said, what I do with patients is I try
Speaker 1: and focus on the ways in which whatever they are,
Speaker 1: and however small they are, that they are living that identity.
Speaker 1: If you want to be a non smoker, and you're
Speaker 1: trying to say I don't smoke as an identity, look
Speaker 1: at the times you didn't smoke, don't look at the
Speaker 1: few times you did, Like, look at the progress that's
Speaker 1: being made. And you were saying the same thing with
Speaker 1: self love, Right, if I focus on what these small
Speaker 1: things are that I'm doing to love myself. Then I
Speaker 1: can begin to take on the identity of somebody who
Speaker 1: does love themselves, and I will continue to act more
Speaker 1: and more into that identity over time. And so I
Speaker 1: love the way you said that because I think it
Speaker 1: really lines up a lot with the importance of identity,
Speaker 1: because it's an important thing. You know, we can have
Speaker 1: the identity that I'm someone who hates myself, right. I
Speaker 1: mean many people do, right, right, you know, I'm neurotic,
Speaker 1: I'm any number of different.
Speaker 2: Things, absolutely, And I think one of the reasons that
Speaker 2: the focusing on the times you are showing up the
Speaker 2: way you want to be, or focusing on the times
Speaker 2: you are loving yourself, one of the ways in which
Speaker 2: that's helpful is because it is much harder for your
Speaker 2: mind to convince you of something when you are showing
Speaker 2: up the opposite way, which is to say, we become
Speaker 2: more aware of the ways in which our mind is
Speaker 2: lying to us about who we are.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: As an example, like with the last book, Big Love,
Speaker 2: as soon as I signed the contract, there was ten
Speaker 2: minutes of joy and then panic, like I have to
Speaker 2: deliver this book, am I going to be able to
Speaker 2: write it, and literally I had ten minutes of whoo.
Speaker 2: And I was showing up every day to work on
Speaker 2: the book, and my mind was still saying, you're never
Speaker 2: going to do this, But day in and day out,
Speaker 2: I was doing it. And what I was noticing is
Speaker 2: my mind was continuing to get quieter because it couldn't
Speaker 2: convince me that I can't do the very thing that
Speaker 2: I am showing up and doing every day, which is
Speaker 2: transfer that to self love or to any other thing.
Speaker 2: If each day you're giving a little energy to focusing
Speaker 2: on the ways you are showing up, it's going to
Speaker 2: be harder for your mind to make the case to
Speaker 2: you that you don't know how to love yourself or
Speaker 2: that you hate yourself, because those things are not true.
Speaker 2: They are products of the mind. And it is only
Speaker 2: when we are committed to believing our thoughts that we
Speaker 2: get locked into these lies. And so another practice for
Speaker 2: me that has helped me come to a better place
Speaker 2: with myself is really, and I know you've talked about
Speaker 2: this a lot on your show, the idea of bearing
Speaker 2: witness to our mind and bearing witness to our thoughts
Speaker 2: really really internalizing the truth that we we are not
Speaker 2: what we are thinking, We are not our minds. It
Speaker 2: is possible to create that detached separation. The metaphor I
Speaker 2: love the most is become the sky and allow your
Speaker 2: thoughts to be the weather. The sky is expensive enough
Speaker 2: to hold whatever's happening, whatever insane thoughts are playing through
Speaker 2: our mind. When you're bearing witness, you're not becoming any
Speaker 2: of it. And what that creates for me is distance
Speaker 2: from those self loathing thoughts and those self abusive thoughts,
Speaker 2: and it allows me to look at them with a
Speaker 2: bit more curiosity and nonchalance because I'm not them. And
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people don't know that they
Speaker 2: really believe everything that's happening in their minds when so
Speaker 2: much of it is untrue.
Speaker 1: Yeah, to be able to do that is a profound
Speaker 1: practice and is a beautiful thing to do. What I
Speaker 1: have noticed, and I've had some of this recently, is
Speaker 1: that I can do that when the emotional scale and
Speaker 1: the thought scales around like a three to a four
Speaker 1: or a five. Maybe even I can handle a six
Speaker 1: on a good day if I'm my best. But once
Speaker 1: it's up at like eight or nine, that separation feels
Speaker 1: almost impossible. It's so overwhelming. And I love that you
Speaker 1: talk in the book some about distraction or numbing right,
Speaker 1: because I think that in a program I teach called
Speaker 1: Circle of Connection, one of the things we explore is
Speaker 1: working with difficult thoughts and emotions. And I created probably
Speaker 1: an overly complicated flow chart, but there's a point in
Speaker 1: it where you go, I give up, Like I've done
Speaker 1: everything that I've tried to be the sky, I've tried
Speaker 1: to work with my thoughts. I've tried to think about
Speaker 1: what's true and what's not true. I give up. Can
Speaker 1: I find some non destructive distraction? You know? And I
Speaker 1: think we're often told, like you just sit with whatever
Speaker 1: you're feeling, And I think that's good advice in general,
Speaker 1: like feel what you're feeling. But there are times that
Speaker 1: we don't have it in is to do it. We
Speaker 1: just don't and being willing to pull the ripcord into
Speaker 1: another frame of mind somehow. Again, I encourage non self destructive,
Speaker 1: but sometimes self destructive might be all you got in
Speaker 1: your bag right now. But you talk about a doing
Speaker 1: that in your own life, and you also talk about
Speaker 1: forgiving yourself when you do do it in a way
Speaker 1: that maybe doesn't fully align with the choices you want
Speaker 1: to make. Say more about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a great point you're bringing up, because
Speaker 2: sometimes even with all the tools that you and I
Speaker 2: and probably many of the listeners have in our toolkits,
Speaker 2: tool baskets.
Speaker 1: Tool belt, much of it. No one talks about a
Speaker 1: tool belt much anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and our tool belt, even with all those things,
Speaker 2: sometimes the mind takes over and for me, the words
Speaker 2: I come back to in that moment when I know
Speaker 2: that I'm just in it and there's nothing I'm going
Speaker 2: to do. You're right, I can't become the sky in
Speaker 2: this moment. I really go to one of my favorite mantras,
Speaker 2: which is this too shall pass. That is one of
Speaker 2: the only things that offers me any sense of peace
Speaker 2: in this moment is just knowing it's not going to
Speaker 2: last forever. Yep, so I'm just gonna have to ride
Speaker 2: it out. And then as far as numbing or escaping,
Speaker 2: I used to judge myself so harshly when I would
Speaker 2: check out, and I really don't anymore, and I check
Speaker 2: out a bunch if I need to, and I don't
Speaker 2: even feel the need to forgive myself for it. It's
Speaker 2: not even something that needs to be forgiven. It's really
Speaker 2: just something that I need not shame myself for the
Speaker 2: way I used to recognize that this world is so
Speaker 2: intense and so violent and so overwhelming, and there is
Speaker 2: so much information and opinions and news coming at us
Speaker 2: from every direction all the time. I do not believe
Speaker 2: there's a person on the planet who can experience it
Speaker 2: without checking out whatever that checkout looks like for you,
Speaker 2: you know. And so yeah, I don't think i'd be around.
Speaker 2: I think I'd be in a cave somewhere if I
Speaker 2: couldn't do my Netflix binges and whatever else it is
Speaker 2: that I do to just forget about things. I think
Speaker 2: it's totally okay. And part of that, again is coming
Speaker 2: back to this idea that we don't have to be
Speaker 2: making the healthiest choices for ourselves all the time in
Speaker 2: order to be worthy of our love. Right. That's some
Speaker 2: misguided conditioning that we've grown up with and taken on
Speaker 2: so many of us, that like our worth is predicated
Speaker 2: on something other than the fact that it's inherent right,
Speaker 2: or that we are lovable simply because we're born lovable,
Speaker 2: not because of the choices we're making, or because of
Speaker 2: our looks, or how great our family is, or any
Speaker 2: other thing, when you really come to understand. And again,
Speaker 2: I don't know how to get someone to understand this.
Speaker 2: I don't know how I came to understand this other
Speaker 2: than probably the commitment to loving myself, my commitment to
Speaker 2: not listening to the voices of shame. And suddenly, gradually,
Speaker 2: over time I embraced generally this idea that I am
Speaker 2: a worthy human being, period, And no matter how my
Speaker 2: mind wants to tell me otherwise, every baby born on
Speaker 2: this planet today is as worthy as every other baby,
Speaker 2: Every human being dying on this planet today is as
Speaker 2: worthy as every other human being in my experience, in
Speaker 2: my understanding. And so why would I not be a
Speaker 2: part of that worthiness story? Like why would I be
Speaker 2: the one person who is not worthy when I see
Speaker 2: every other being as worthy? And what that does for
Speaker 2: you when you really start to inhabit that sense of worth,
Speaker 2: that sense of enoughness, is it allows you to move
Speaker 2: through the world with much more openness, much more expansiveness.
Speaker 2: And then I believe that what you invite from that
Speaker 2: place into your life is wholly different than when you're
Speaker 2: moving through the world energetically shut down and believing that
Speaker 2: you're a piece of crap who doesn't deserve love or
Speaker 2: doesn't deserve these things.
Speaker 1: There's a real nuance in this, right, Let's apply it
Speaker 1: to checking out or escaping and numbing. Right, Yes, on
Speaker 1: some level, there is an understanding of of course I
Speaker 1: have to check out, everybody does sometimes, and there's also
Speaker 1: a recognition, perhaps that the ways I'm checking out aren't
Speaker 1: actually restoring me in any way. Right, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: actually checking out in a way that doesn't do what
Speaker 1: the purpose of checking out is, which would be to
Speaker 1: allow me to come back less for as old then
Speaker 1: I left.
Speaker 2: Right, Well, then checking out would have a different definition
Speaker 2: for me than numbing or escaping, because I feel like
Speaker 2: when we're numbing or escaping from what it is we're feeling,
Speaker 2: that thing is always going to be there on the
Speaker 2: other side of the numbing and escaping, Right, that's speaking
Speaker 2: to what you're saying. Because I'm not doing anything about it.
Speaker 2: I'm just like smoking pot right now and watching Netflix.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is fine sometimes exactly, I mean, yeah, it
Speaker 1: is okay, And and this is the holding the both thing.
Speaker 1: If I do that all the time, then nothing changes, right,
Speaker 1: And so I love this idea in Buddhism of like
Speaker 1: true refuge and false refuge. You know, true refuge is
Speaker 1: things that bring you back more restored. False refuge are
Speaker 1: things that just check you out for a while and
Speaker 1: you come back and everything's exactly the same as it is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we all need both, right, We all need both of
Speaker 1: those things, you know. So what I'm looking at is
Speaker 1: how can I and all this is without judgment and shame?
Speaker 2: Of course?
Speaker 1: Do I need to be adjusting that balance? Am I
Speaker 1: numbing more than is useful for me in being the
Speaker 1: person that I want to be. There's a phrase that
Speaker 1: has been going through my mind as I've been reading
Speaker 1: your work, and it goes through my mind very often
Speaker 1: because I feel like I'm somebody who's holding sort of
Speaker 1: two things at once. And nobody has summed this up
Speaker 1: better than the great Zen teacher Suzuki Roshi, who said
Speaker 1: you're perfect exactly the way you are, and you could
Speaker 1: use a little improvement. And I love that line because
Speaker 1: both those things are absolutely true, and if I don't
Speaker 1: have both of them, it's problematic. If I only think
Speaker 1: I need improvement, then I'm going to be trying to
Speaker 1: improve out of a sense of shame and unworthiness and
Speaker 1: less than this. And that may provide fuel for a while,
Speaker 1: but it's fuel that eventually gunks up the whole engine
Speaker 1: and everything turns crappy.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely so if I don't have the self love, if
Speaker 1: somehow I were able to be I'm perfect exactly as
Speaker 1: I am. I suppose if you could actually inhabit that
Speaker 1: one hundred percent fully, you would probably be okay. But
Speaker 1: given that, I think part of our role in this
Speaker 1: world is to live according to our values, right Like
Speaker 1: I want to live according to my values, which means
Speaker 1: I do need a little bit of improvement and I
Speaker 1: need to love myself, and I just I find that
Speaker 1: balance a really like many many things that we talk about,
Speaker 1: a really nuanced thing. In the same way of should
Speaker 1: I try and eliminate those negative thoughts? Should I try
Speaker 1: and listen to them? The answer is, at different times
Speaker 1: a little of all of that.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know. For me, there's always value I think
Speaker 2: in looking at the choices you're making and how those
Speaker 2: choices are making you feel and are affecting your life,
Speaker 2: and as much as possible, direct yourself into choices that
Speaker 2: have you feeling more meaning, more connection, more love in
Speaker 2: your life, you know, more wholeness, and start eliminating the
Speaker 2: choices that are depleting you and have you feeling like
Speaker 2: crap and disconnected one hundred percent. You know, I'm someone
Speaker 2: who's a major processor, you know, but I have fun
Speaker 2: with it, Like I'm always looking at why I'm doing
Speaker 2: what I'm doing, and like, yeah, for me, that is
Speaker 2: it's it's entertaining, it's I'm curious about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's part of who you are.
Speaker 2: It's part of who as you are, absolutely exactolutely like.
Speaker 1: That self love, Like that's who I am, Okay, exactly.
Speaker 2: But what's so important about what you said too, is
Speaker 2: like if we can get in the practice of not
Speaker 2: doing any of this with shame, It's like, if you're
Speaker 2: numbing and it's in an unhealthy way, that isn't going
Speaker 2: to serve you, there's still no need to shame yourself
Speaker 2: for that choice. And that's really the practice I'm really
Speaker 2: focused on in my life so much now is understanding
Speaker 2: no matter what choices I make, I can be a
Speaker 2: voice of love for myself and by doing so, it's
Speaker 2: not to justify my actions. I don't believe it takes
Speaker 2: away in any way from the possibility of making healthier
Speaker 2: choices down the line. It just allows me to live into. Ultimately,
Speaker 2: what I've discovered is that one of the things I
Speaker 2: desire more than any other thing, which is to be
Speaker 2: in a good relationship with myself. Because if you're in
Speaker 2: a loving relationship with yourself, if you know you've got
Speaker 2: your back, if you know you're going to be there
Speaker 2: no matter what, you're likely to feel so much freer
Speaker 2: to take risks in your life, to fail, to be rejected,
Speaker 2: to make choices that are in alignment with your heart,
Speaker 2: because you know that, no matter what happens, rather than
Speaker 2: being a voice of shame on the other side of it,
Speaker 2: you're going to be a voice of compassion and love
Speaker 2: on the other side of it. And so if I
Speaker 2: know that my relationship is solid with myself, it matters
Speaker 2: much less what choices I make because I know that
Speaker 2: I'm going to be there for myself no matter what.
Speaker 1: Does That make sense, It one hundred percent does. And
Speaker 1: if shame actually was an effective agent for change, you
Speaker 1: probably would have very little addiction in the world. Right,
Speaker 1: Like you know, I mean, it's the engine that derives it,
Speaker 1: right Now there are things that cause it that are
Speaker 1: not shame based, right, traumas and all that different stuff.
Speaker 1: But the engine that drives addiction is shame, you know,
Speaker 1: and it tends to be the engine that drives most
Speaker 1: of the choices that we make that we don't want
Speaker 1: to be making. Yes, that very thing. I love that idea,
Speaker 1: which is, like I think you said, you know, I
Speaker 1: absolutely have my back. We've interviewed a guy named Aziz
Speaker 1: Gazapura and I've been on his show, and he has
Speaker 1: a phrase like be on your own side, and I
Speaker 1: love that because you can always be on your side.
Speaker 1: You can always have your back, and you can have
Speaker 1: that and you can look at the choices you make
Speaker 1: and evaluate them and say, oh, I would like to
Speaker 1: do more of this or less of that, while at
Speaker 1: the exact same moment being one hundred percent on your
Speaker 1: side having your own back, And that can sometimes again
Speaker 1: is a nuanced thing to sort out, but it is
Speaker 1: the way, and my experience is sustainable change in both
Speaker 1: our well being and acting according to our values, that
Speaker 1: both those things happen best in that fertile soil.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, I've never shamed myself into healing and
Speaker 2: I have often loved myself into a better place of being,
Speaker 2: into a more healed place of being. And for those
Speaker 2: of you listening who are thinking, and I know there
Speaker 2: are some of you like, well, I don't have my
Speaker 2: back like self love, It's very easy to say you
Speaker 2: can always have your back. But if you're someone who's
Speaker 2: like I don't know how to have my back, I don't.
Speaker 2: I'm judgmental of myself, I'm critical. You know, small steps
Speaker 2: like for me again, I really love the word willingness
Speaker 2: because for me, willingness is an invitation when we're not
Speaker 2: able to show up in the place, but we have
Speaker 2: a general energetic intention about being there. Like are you
Speaker 2: willing to have your back? I would grab a sheet
Speaker 2: of paper. What would that look like to you to
Speaker 2: have your back? Right down? Very specific things like when
Speaker 2: I have my back, it looks like this, or if
Speaker 2: I were to have my back, it would look like this.
Speaker 2: Make a list for yourself, and then from that list,
Speaker 2: start integrating some of those practices as best you could.
Speaker 2: Maybe it looks like having your back after a long
Speaker 2: day of work. It might look like preparing yourself a
Speaker 2: beautiful cup of tea and being very intentional about it.
Speaker 2: Maybe it might look like sitting for ten minutes staring
Speaker 2: at a wall in total silence. These are little examples
Speaker 2: of how we can go about taking care of ourselves
Speaker 2: in tangible ways that actually matter. They're actually impactful. So
Speaker 2: I really encourage anyone who goes to a place of well,
Speaker 2: I don't know how to do that, and I can't
Speaker 2: do that, and I haven't done that, to really ask
Speaker 2: yourself generative questions. Questions that are yes and no because
Speaker 2: your fear, your insecurity is going to take you to
Speaker 2: a know, but a question that generates the invitation to
Speaker 2: look at how you can go about doing it, Like
Speaker 2: what would it look like to have my back? How
Speaker 2: can I go about having my back in a more
Speaker 2: proactive way in my day to day living? Those questions
Speaker 2: are an invitation for responses that align with the yes
Speaker 2: that you're seeking.
Speaker 1: Let's change directions a little bit here, because you've got
Speaker 1: all sorts of stuff in this book on this topic
Speaker 1: of you know, kind of focusing sort of on the
Speaker 1: self love piece. You have a line that I really love,
Speaker 1: which is you can't paint your self portrait with someone
Speaker 1: else's hand.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you love about that line?
Speaker 1: What it is is it's like many statements that once
Speaker 1: you hear them, something becomes extraordinarily clear, right. And what
Speaker 1: becomes for me in that statement extraordinarily clear is oh, yes,
Speaker 1: if I'm going to paint my self portrait, who else
Speaker 1: could do it? It's a self portrait, right, It's an
Speaker 1: obvious like, oh yeah, okay, well only I can do that.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: If someone else is painting something, it's not my self portrait,
Speaker 1: it's their portrait of me, right, which is a completely
Speaker 1: different thing than my self portrait. So I love it
Speaker 1: because it's a sort of like when you hear the
Speaker 1: wolf parable, you kind of immediately get it. You're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: my choices matter. Right in that line, it becomes very clear, like, oh,
Speaker 1: my image of myself can only be generated truly by me.
Speaker 1: Now I may be borrowing other people's images, I may
Speaker 1: be looking at other portraits that have been painted, but
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it's mine to paint
Speaker 1: for me.
Speaker 2: It speaks a lot to conditioning. I'd say a lot
Speaker 2: of the work I've been doing the last few years too,
Speaker 2: is really looking at what responses are conditioned responses and
Speaker 2: what are authentic responses, and as much as possible. When
Speaker 2: I recognize that I'm aligning with just a conditioned way
Speaker 2: of being that doesn't even feel necessarily true to who
Speaker 2: I am right now or may never have felt true
Speaker 2: to who I am? Then do I have the courage
Speaker 2: to align myself with what feels more true, even if
Speaker 2: by doing so and sharing that I might get judged
Speaker 2: more harshly because it's outside the bounds of what we've
Speaker 2: considered to be okay in our society, I might be misunderstood,
Speaker 2: I might be rejected, And for me, part of this path,
Speaker 2: this journey, should you choose to take it in a
Speaker 2: more healing consciousness way, is looking at what is real,
Speaker 2: what is true inside of me, and understanding One of
Speaker 2: the most liberating moments I had years ago was when
Speaker 2: I had the realization that no matter what choice I make,
Speaker 2: I'm going to be judged by other people. And that
Speaker 2: realization felt really heavy in the moment of it, because
Speaker 2: it was like, my god, we are all so judgmental,
Speaker 2: we're all criticizing each other all the time, and it
Speaker 2: feels heavy to know that you can't do anything without
Speaker 2: being criticized. But a few moments later, I'm like, wait
Speaker 2: a minute, That is the most liberating realization I could
Speaker 2: possibly have, because what that means is, if I choose
Speaker 2: to live in this restrictive box of conditioning, I'm going
Speaker 2: to be judged. Or if I live in the full
Speaker 2: expansiveness of my truth and freedom, I'm going to be judged.
Speaker 2: And knowing that both those choices are going to lead
Speaker 2: to judgment, why would I ever choose this restrictive box.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because the people were being judged by in the
Speaker 1: restrictive box are the people closest to us at that time. Sure,
Speaker 1: that's why that choice can often seem like the more
Speaker 1: appealing choice. But you're absolutely right that judgment's coming from anywhere.
Speaker 1: I use this example just yesterday. So hopefully these episodes
Speaker 1: don't get released right on top of each other, but
Speaker 1: it's top of mind for me, and it speaks to
Speaker 1: exactly what you are saying. It also speaks to the
Speaker 1: obviousness of you can only payt your own self portrait.
Speaker 1: You know, for a long time, Ginny and I went
Speaker 1: back and forth between Atlanta and Columbus. Her mom was
Speaker 1: in Atlanta Alzheimer's, my mom was in Columbus and other things,
Speaker 1: And when we were in Atlanta, my mom was unhappy,
Speaker 1: and when we were in Columbus, her mom was unhappy,
Speaker 1: and that caused me a lot of strain until one
Speaker 1: day I went, wait, it's impossible that one of them
Speaker 1: is not going to be happy. I can't make them
Speaker 1: both happy, like, literally cannot do it. YEA, what a freedom? Yes,
Speaker 1: right now, I'm not saying I didn't still try and
Speaker 1: think about their needs and who needed what and when
Speaker 1: they needed it. But I was able to just let
Speaker 1: go of an insoluble problem.
Speaker 2: Absolutely right.
Speaker 1: And in the same way for you, who we're talking about,
Speaker 1: being judged is an insoluble problem. Right, It's going to happen.
Speaker 1: You are going to be judged by the people around you.
Speaker 1: And you know, again, given that point, wouldn't I rather
Speaker 1: be living truer to who I really am?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 1: And I think the reason that choice sometimes feels harder
Speaker 1: is that the people right around us are people who
Speaker 1: are closest to us currently are the ones who will
Speaker 1: judge the choice to break out of the box.
Speaker 2: Well, that's why it takes so much courage.
Speaker 1: Yeah, once you're out of the box, then it's a
Speaker 1: different story. But getting out of that box does take
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of courage, and even.
Speaker 2: When you're out of the box, like I'm not going
Speaker 2: to pretend to be someone who's always living in my
Speaker 2: authentic truth. I would say I'm more authentic than I've
Speaker 2: ever been, and that continues to grow. And sometimes I
Speaker 2: coward in my fear. Sometimes I make a choice that
Speaker 2: is probably more condition because I don't want to feel
Speaker 2: the backlash. I don't want to be judged. I'm not
Speaker 2: in the mood for it in that moment, and that's
Speaker 2: part of this journey as well.
Speaker 1: There's two lines that you wrote that I really love
Speaker 1: about the future, which is also informed by the past,
Speaker 1: and you say, do not limit yourself based on past realities.
Speaker 1: And you also say I will not set myself up
Speaker 1: for a future I don't want by convincing myself it's
Speaker 1: the future I'm going to get. I loved both of those.
Speaker 1: They're twins to me in a way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I just think we do ourselves such
Speaker 2: a disservice. I know I've done myself such a disservice
Speaker 2: looking at my life through the lens of my past
Speaker 2: and using my past as a means to prevent me
Speaker 2: from moving forward. In alignment with my heart instead of
Speaker 2: as a means to support me in moving forward in
Speaker 2: alignment with my heart. I could look at let's say
Speaker 2: I submitted a screenplay that got rejected ten times, you know,
Speaker 2: and so I'm working on a screenplay now, and my
Speaker 2: mind is going to tell me you've already been rejected
Speaker 2: ten times, like this isn't going to work for you,
Speaker 2: Like why are you even bothering? My mind's going to
Speaker 2: come up with a whole host of reasons why I
Speaker 2: shouldn't do this. I could use my past to prevent
Speaker 2: me from continuing to write and continuing to try to
Speaker 2: share my writing in a bigger way. Or I could
Speaker 2: look at my past and say, well, wait a minute,
Speaker 2: I have the experience of trying this ten times, and
Speaker 2: the experience of those ten times is fueling what I'm
Speaker 2: doing right now, and with every time, why there's no
Speaker 2: reason to believe I'm not getting closer to what my
Speaker 2: goal is, Right, It's like, how do you want to
Speaker 2: frame your past? And for me, if I catch myself
Speaker 2: using my past to limit me, I know I'm doing
Speaker 2: a disservice to myself and it's not necessary, right and so,
Speaker 2: and the same thing about the future. So often we're
Speaker 2: not doing things because we're so afraid of how it's
Speaker 2: going to end up looking in the future. We're always, well,
Speaker 2: not always, but we're often going to worst case scenarios.
Speaker 2: And it's those worst case scenarios that prevent us from
Speaker 2: even taking the first step toward creating the reality we
Speaker 2: want to take, because we're certain we're just going to
Speaker 2: flounder and it's going to explode. Right. So, for me,
Speaker 2: it's about recognizing that there are a whole host of
Speaker 2: thoughts we can give our energy to that are not
Speaker 2: doing us any good. And the moment we have awareness
Speaker 2: that we're locked into those thoughts is the moment we
Speaker 2: have an opportunity to either reframe them, create different thoughts
Speaker 2: around them, or just think about something.
Speaker 5: Entirely different that has nothing to do with them.
Speaker 1: I would encounter this with coaching clients a lot. They
Speaker 1: would come in and you know, by the time you
Speaker 1: hire a coach to help you change behavior, you've probably
Speaker 1: failed at changing it a bunch of times. Right, that's
Speaker 1: not your first choice, right, you know, sort of the
Speaker 1: last resort, like, oh god, I'm got to hire a coach.
Speaker 1: So they've tried many times and haven't been successful, or
Speaker 1: they've been successful for a little bit, and so there's
Speaker 1: a story there which is like, I can't do this.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be able to do it, and
Speaker 1: so we'll get off to a good start and their
Speaker 1: brain will be saying, yeah, you've started before, you never
Speaker 1: can stick with it, which becomes a self fulfilling prophecy
Speaker 1: if you're not careful, right. And so there's a real
Speaker 1: art in doing exactly what you said, which is like, well,
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about and learn from what didn't
Speaker 1: happen before. B you're a different person than you were then.
Speaker 1: Exactly you're not the same person. And see we're going
Speaker 1: to bring new resources to bear that you didn't have before.
Speaker 1: And so we can all apply that same thing to
Speaker 1: whatever it is, like you said, you know it's a screenplay,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, which is saying, oh, I'm going to
Speaker 1: learn from what happened. I'm going to recognize that I'm
Speaker 1: not the same person. Yes, ideally I've changed and I've grown.
Speaker 1: And see I can use that energy that's telling me
Speaker 1: that to ask myself, well, what else could I get
Speaker 1: now that would support me in doing what I want?
Speaker 1: What are other resources I could avail myself of that
Speaker 1: would make me more likely to be able to do
Speaker 1: this thing in the future. And so it can be
Speaker 1: helpful to reflect on those things to learn and change,
Speaker 1: but not to predict the future with absolutely.
Speaker 2: You sound like a very good coach.
Speaker 1: Every once in a while. Every once in a while,
Speaker 1: i'd hire you. All right, Well, let me know. So,
Speaker 1: I want to talk about jealousy envy. They show up
Speaker 1: a number of times throughout the book. You say you're
Speaker 1: sort of a jealous person, You're sort of an envious person.
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you to rethink your labels about yourself. No,
Speaker 1: I actually don't think you say that. I don't actually
Speaker 1: think you say I'm a jealous person. I think you
Speaker 1: say I often have or you know where my mind is, Yeah,
Speaker 1: my mind is yeah. Yeah. So tell me more about
Speaker 1: those energies in your life and how you've learned to
Speaker 1: work with them more usefully.
Speaker 2: They are two of the most uncomfortable energies for me anyway,
Speaker 2: My mind can be incredibly envious of everyone. For everything
Speaker 2: I've learned in the past couple of years, just how
Speaker 2: jealous my mind can be. Yeah, you like to think
Speaker 2: that you're beyond something, or that something isn't as heavy,
Speaker 2: and then you're handed a circumstance it shows you, Oh no, honey,
Speaker 2: you're not even close to me beyond this. You're every
Speaker 2: bit as insane as you were.
Speaker 1: What my therapist said about that, because I was asking
Speaker 1: recently about this, because I had this sort of like
Speaker 1: I thought I was past this, right, and he said,
Speaker 1: when you're dealing with these deeply conditioned, traumatic sort of
Speaker 1: things that are driven out of that, He's like, you're
Speaker 1: never fully past it. What happens is you can handle it,
Speaker 1: it doesn't get brought up in you. You can handle
Speaker 1: more and more circumstances without it coming up, but there
Speaker 1: will always be some circumstance triggered enough that it's still there.
Speaker 1: And I thought that was a really useful way to
Speaker 1: think about it, instead of thinking, oh, I thought I
Speaker 1: was beyond this, I'm not. All this work I've done
Speaker 1: doesn't mean anything because I handle lots of circumstances way
Speaker 1: better than I ever did. Absolutely, And when the antie
Speaker 1: gets high enough, oh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, life's there with a little treat for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: I like the way I'm in relationship with my envy
Speaker 2: and jealousy more than I've ever been, which is to say,
Speaker 2: you know, with envy. However, many years ago, I was
Speaker 2: talking to a good friend. He got a great job,
Speaker 2: promotion and a lot more money, and I knew he
Speaker 2: had been working for this for a long time, and
Speaker 2: I was genuinely really happy for him for a minute.
Speaker 2: I mean, there was genuine happiness I was.
Speaker 1: I got the word congratulations out shut it down.
Speaker 2: And then exactly and then my mind started to go
Speaker 2: to that place of envy. Just like he makes a
Speaker 2: lot more money, he's a lot more success, all these
Speaker 2: stories that my mind was coming up with. What I
Speaker 2: was doing at that time in my life when envy
Speaker 2: would surface, was try to pretend it wasn't happening, you know,
Speaker 2: like just I'm not being envious right now, Like this
Speaker 2: whole ridiculous attempt at denying what is happening in a
Speaker 2: big way in my body and in my mind right
Speaker 2: you know, we try to push it down, and I
Speaker 2: think we all probably have the experience those things we
Speaker 2: try to push down or put in the dungeon behind
Speaker 2: a closed door, they just make that much more noise
Speaker 2: pounding on the door. So I'm really in the practice
Speaker 2: in my life now more and more of just inviting
Speaker 2: it all in. And when I'm feeling envious now, I
Speaker 2: don't spend a second trying to deny it anymore. I
Speaker 2: acknowledge it, like I'm not like speaking it to the
Speaker 2: person necessarily, I'm doing this internally. But it's like, this
Speaker 2: is me, this is just envy, and all human minds
Speaker 2: are envious at times, and it's totally okay. And it's
Speaker 2: also rooted in a host of fears and insecurities that
Speaker 2: are real but they're not true. And for me, I
Speaker 2: like the distinction between what feels real and what feels true,
Speaker 2: because what my mind conjures so often feels real. It's
Speaker 2: creating a physical response to an emotional response, but so
Speaker 2: often it's untrue. When I'm really aligned with my heart center,
Speaker 2: really connecting to love, that's when I feel most deeply
Speaker 2: in my truth. And so that distinction for me is important.
Speaker 2: But I welcome my envy to have a seat at
Speaker 2: the table with everything else I'm feeling, even though I
Speaker 2: don't like it. I don't think I'll ever like my envy.
Speaker 2: It's why mildly uncomfortable, totally, But what I've come to
Speaker 2: learn is I can love it still. I'm not going
Speaker 2: to shame myself for being envious in moments. I'm just
Speaker 2: going to come here, envy, You're okay, And then I
Speaker 2: think there is a benefit in or there can be
Speaker 2: if I'm able to get myself in this place of
Speaker 2: really looking at, well, what exactly are you envying? Beyond
Speaker 2: just like they have more money or they're more whatever,
Speaker 2: It's like, what are you envying exactly? And is there
Speaker 2: a way to foster more of that in your lived experience? Now,
Speaker 2: if that's something you truly are desiring, how could you
Speaker 2: go about bringing that into your life in a bigger way?
Speaker 1: Yeah? You know, envy and jealousy are emotions that do
Speaker 1: feel so yucky and we think they're so undesirable that
Speaker 1: we want to push them away. But like anything, you
Speaker 1: can learn something there. You know. The other thing that
Speaker 1: I found to be helpful is to go, all right, Okay,
Speaker 1: if I'm going to envy that person for that thing,
Speaker 1: I also have to look at what they're doing and
Speaker 1: having to do and go through and do in life
Speaker 1: in order to get that thing. Because I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: they have more money, and I'm like, I just want
Speaker 1: more money of course I want more money. I want
Speaker 1: more money, but that person may be doing a job
Speaker 1: I don't want to do at all, you know, they
Speaker 1: may be taking on more commitment and responsibility than I want.
Speaker 1: So I think oftentimes we envy something because we see
Speaker 1: the shiny side of it. Absolutely, it can also be
Speaker 1: helpful to try and flip it around and go, well,
Speaker 1: what's the not shiny side of it? What are the
Speaker 1: other realities going on here? I mean, it's obviously, like
Speaker 1: we all know that that's what's happening to us on
Speaker 1: social media, right. We're being presented the shiny side, but
Speaker 1: we're not seeing necessarily what the other pieces of that are.
Speaker 1: And that's been really helpful for me. You know, like
Speaker 1: I made a choice, you know, five years ago to
Speaker 1: leave a really lucrative corporate career to do this, and
Speaker 1: I get by, I'm okay, I'm fine, but I don't
Speaker 1: have the money that I used to have or the
Speaker 1: money I would have today in that job five years
Speaker 1: I just don't. So when I start getting envious about money,
Speaker 1: I have to go, well, if I could get that
Speaker 1: money on my term's great, but on those terms, no, thank.
Speaker 2: You, Yeah, I hear you, man, like I look at
Speaker 2: my life. I had a lot more money at different
Speaker 2: times in my life than I do now. And I'm
Speaker 2: also living a life that I want to be living
Speaker 2: and I wouldn't trade it, I guess, is what I'm saying, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, And I think what you're speaking to is
Speaker 2: very important about the full picture. Taking in the full
Speaker 2: picture sometimes helps us and also understanding. I think that
Speaker 2: like jealousy, for me, it triggers that the place in
Speaker 2: me that isn't confident about my worth right, that is
Speaker 2: the wound that gets triggered. Like I am someone who
Speaker 2: loves myself, I am someone who generally feels worthy, and
Speaker 2: I also have the places inside where I lack self
Speaker 2: worth and struggle with it. And things like envy and
Speaker 2: jealousy they push that button so intensely, and that is
Speaker 2: for me one of the hardest buttons to be with
Speaker 2: to just sit with. It's painful, it feels gross, it
Speaker 2: feels disgusting.
Speaker 1: It really does. And the shame follows for me very
Speaker 1: quickly on those emotions, particularly like the jealousy side. You know,
Speaker 1: Envy to me can be slightly more benign if I'm envious,
Speaker 1: like and I can sort of reframe it and be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I do wish that my podcast career was
Speaker 1: as successful as that person. Oh that does tell me
Speaker 1: something about what matters to me. Okay, there's a way
Speaker 1: that I can sort of work with envy in certain cases,
Speaker 1: jealousy that is to me, like you said, it's far
Speaker 1: more about core worth, you know, and that is the
Speaker 1: yucky stuff. It's the yucky stuff, but everyone experiences it. Yes,
Speaker 1: that is helpful for me when I'm going through stuff
Speaker 1: like that, because what our shame wants to tell us
Speaker 1: is we are especially disgusting because of our jealousy, and
Speaker 1: our shame wants to communicate on some level like you're
Speaker 1: the only one who's like this, who's feeling this in
Speaker 1: this way. And I like to remind myself everybody feels
Speaker 1: this to some degree. It's just part of the human experience.
Speaker 1: There's nothing to be ashamed of here, and it's not
Speaker 1: going to last forever. Yeah, until the next round comes
Speaker 1: when you think you're over it. Right, We kind of
Speaker 1: hit this before, but I want to hit it again
Speaker 1: because I think it's a really important point. And you
Speaker 1: said this line almost word for word earlier. So why
Speaker 1: am I bringing it up again. I can't help it,
Speaker 1: and it is that often the only comfort I can
Speaker 1: find in despair is the understanding that it, like everything else,
Speaker 1: won't last forever. I mean, I think that is such
Speaker 1: an important idea. Literally, there are times that we're just
Speaker 1: going to feel awful and that's okay, And in those
Speaker 1: moments often the only solace for me, and I'm bringing
Speaker 1: it back up because it resonates so strongly with me,
Speaker 1: right is oh, yeah, this will sooner or later pass,
Speaker 1: and actually even further to notice with in it being here,
Speaker 1: that it's not always here. And what I mean by
Speaker 1: that is like, let's say I'm in grief about something.
Speaker 1: I might spend three four hours that day deep in grief,
Speaker 1: and if you ask me how I'm doing, I would say, well,
Speaker 1: I'm deeply grieving, but there were a bunch of hours
Speaker 1: in there where I actually wasn't right right, where there
Speaker 1: was actually a little bit of a break. That break
Speaker 1: might have been ten minutes, it might have been three
Speaker 1: or four hours. But not labeling our experience monolithically allows
Speaker 1: us to see that, yes, grief in the broad sense
Speaker 1: will fade over time, you will heal, but even within
Speaker 1: now there are pockets of things. And it sort of
Speaker 1: goes back to what we were talking about with self love,
Speaker 1: like looking for or what are the ways I'm loving myself?
Speaker 1: What are the ways that there's something other than grief
Speaker 1: here right now? Not to deny it exactly, but to
Speaker 1: simply say, oh, yes, my experience is always sort of changing,
Speaker 1: even hour to hour, moment to moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we can trust that if there's always so
Speaker 2: much more that exists in this reality than what we're experiencing,
Speaker 2: and we can trust that if we're focused on only
Speaker 2: one thing and that one thing is creating for us
Speaker 2: a lot of internal misery or heartache or heartbreak, that
Speaker 2: we are shutting ourselves off to a world of other
Speaker 2: possibilities out there. And for me, when I remember that
Speaker 2: it's just an invitation to do what you're speaking to
Speaker 2: is like, well, wait a minute. Within this grief, there's
Speaker 2: also been moments of connection and moments of laughter, and
Speaker 2: if it helps to give energy to that beautiful and
Speaker 2: also the idea of remembering that this too shall pass
Speaker 2: can also serve us in making courageous choices instead of
Speaker 2: putting them off. For instance, had this world ruin relationship
Speaker 2: at the beginning of the year and ended it, and
Speaker 2: prior to ending it was so scared about it because
Speaker 2: we both fell hard for each other. I knew it
Speaker 2: was going to be super painful, not only the conversation
Speaker 2: but the fallout and the sorrow afterwards. And I reminded
Speaker 2: myself preemptively, it's like, yes, that's all true, and it's
Speaker 2: all going to pass. Just think about all the other
Speaker 2: times you've been through something similar and it's painful and
Speaker 2: heartbreaking and unbearable until it isn't. So not only remembering
Speaker 2: this too shall pass when you're in the muck, but
Speaker 2: even remembering it when you need to make a change
Speaker 2: in your life and you're putting it off, putting it off,
Speaker 2: putting it off because of the potential painful outcome of it,
Speaker 2: knowing that these things don't last forever.
Speaker 1: Similar to that topic, you have a line you say,
Speaker 1: quit putting off the conversations you need to have.
Speaker 4: Oh boy, Yeah, what I just said speaks to that
Speaker 4: as well, right yeah, yeah, because we all know, we
Speaker 4: all do it, and we all know how relieved we
Speaker 4: feel when we finally have the conversation.
Speaker 1: Right yeah, yeah. A question I asked myself with lots
Speaker 1: of different things like that. Basically, anything I don't want
Speaker 1: to do, as I ask myself, I try and be
Speaker 1: really honest, like will I ever want to do it?
Speaker 1: And often the answer is never, because my brain will
Speaker 1: tell me like, well it's not quite the right time
Speaker 1: or maybe you could, you know, And I'm like, will
Speaker 1: it ever feel like the right time?
Speaker 2: Never?
Speaker 1: Will I ever want to do this? And if the
Speaker 1: answer is never, then I try and go well, then
Speaker 1: just do it as quickly as you can, because if
Speaker 1: it's going to be difficult whenever you do it, all
Speaker 1: the time between now and you doing it is just
Speaker 1: time that you're worrying about doing it. You could at
Speaker 1: least cut that out. You can't cut out the difficulty
Speaker 1: of the conversation, you can't cut out the fear, but
Speaker 1: you can cut out the torment about it for the
Speaker 1: next three months. Well you put it off, you know. Now, Again,
Speaker 1: that doesn't always work because sometimes it takes a out
Speaker 1: of summon the courage, right, Sometimes we just don't have
Speaker 1: the courage to do it. I mean there's been plenty
Speaker 1: of times in my life where that's been the case.
Speaker 1: Like I just for whatever reason, it took me x
Speaker 1: amount of time before I could do it because I
Speaker 1: didn't have the courage and and be forgiving about that.
Speaker 1: But that little trick there of like, well, I ever
Speaker 1: want to do this often helps me get over the
Speaker 1: hump on.
Speaker 2: Those Yeah, I like that. And also, you know, I
Speaker 2: think when we're focusing on the dreaded conversations, we're living
Speaker 2: in the dread of what we imagine that conversation to
Speaker 2: be and the potential fallout. And I think it can
Speaker 2: be a good practice to go beyond with like focused
Speaker 2: kind of visualization of if it's something you know you
Speaker 2: need to communicate and you know that eventually you're going
Speaker 2: to feel better by having done, so take yourself to
Speaker 2: the place of feeling better. Maybe grab your journal and
Speaker 2: write down all of the benefits that you can imagine
Speaker 2: coming from having this conversation. So instead of living in
Speaker 2: the dread, you're actually centering yourself in the reality of
Speaker 2: what you're imagining will come from having had it, and
Speaker 2: that will help you potentially generate the courage to have it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so can you walk us through maybe, And again
Speaker 1: you can say I don't want to unearth all this
Speaker 1: right now, it's too real and too fresh, but you
Speaker 1: knew you had to have a difficult conversation about ending
Speaker 1: this relationship, right, and so in that circumstance, what sort
Speaker 1: of things would you visualize the positive that would come
Speaker 1: out of it, knowing that it's not like you're gonna
Speaker 1: have the conversation and you're gonna be like, Okay, thank god,
Speaker 1: we all feel happy now, right, So how do you
Speaker 1: do it in a situation like that where it's like,
Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure I can forecast the benefit of
Speaker 1: this one.
Speaker 2: You know what I actually did in that situation, Eric,
Speaker 2: was I think I well, I know, I focused more
Speaker 2: on what actually wasn't working, and so for me, the
Speaker 2: benefits were that these things weren't going to be going
Speaker 2: on in my life anymore once the relationship was over,
Speaker 2: So it was a little more focused on the negatives
Speaker 2: within the context of the relationship. It would no longer
Speaker 2: be a part of my life anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that accomplishes the same thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Well, Scott, we're at the end of our time. I
Speaker 1: have enjoyed it as always. You and I are going
Speaker 1: to continue in the post show conversation, and there I
Speaker 1: kind of want to talk about I'm going to read
Speaker 1: just the beginning of the statement of what we're going
Speaker 1: to try and talk about, which is let the violence
Speaker 1: and pain in your world route you even more deeply
Speaker 1: in your commitment to be kinder and love harder. I
Speaker 1: want to explore that idea because we can look around
Speaker 1: and see lots of violence and pain in our world,
Speaker 1: and so how do we use that to do that
Speaker 1: to make us actually better people? So we'll cover that
Speaker 1: in the post show conversation. Listeners, we'd love to have
Speaker 1: you join our community. You can get post show conversations
Speaker 1: ad free episodes. We're going to be doing a community meeting.
Speaker 1: There's all sorts of great stuff out there and we
Speaker 1: really could use your support, So go to one feed
Speaker 1: dot net slash join Scott again. Thanks so much, it's
Speaker 1: such a pleasure. Until next time.
Speaker 2: Yeah for me too, brother, Thank you so much.
Speaker 5: Eric.
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