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Speaker 3: Hello Next Picture Show listeners, here's a friendly reminder that

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Speaker 3: if you enjoy the Next Picture Show, you'll we really

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Speaker 3: three dollars a month and get bonus episodes on current

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Speaker 3: TV movies we don't cover on the podcast and other

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Speaker 3: topics for five dollars a month. We just recorded a

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Speaker 3: breakdown on FX's ambitious, complicated book adaptation Showgun, and there's

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Speaker 3: more on the way. To subscribe to our Patreon, please

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Speaker 3: visit patreon dot com slash Next Picture Show. That's patreon

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Speaker 3: dot com slash Next Picture Show.

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Speaker 4: Hey, everyone, produce a genevieve here to let you know

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Speaker 4: that due to a recording problem our guests audio this

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Speaker 4: week is of a lower quality than you're accustomed to

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Speaker 4: hearing on this show. We're sorry for the listening inconvenience

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Speaker 4: and hope that you're able to appreciate her great insight

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Speaker 4: despite the less than great audio. Thanks for understanding.

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Speaker 5: Very difficult to keep the line between the.

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Speaker 6: Past and the price.

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Speaker 7: You believe that someone out of the past we can

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Speaker 7: enter and take possession of a living bee.

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Speaker 8: We may be through with the past, but the past

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Speaker 8: is not through with us.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the Next Picture Show. A movie the Week

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Speaker 3: podcast devoted to a classic film and how it's shaped

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Speaker 3: our thoughts on a recent release. In case you have

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Speaker 3: forgotten me during my lengthy absence, I'm Tasha Robinson, and

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Speaker 3: now that I'm back, everybody else seems to be gone

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Speaker 3: except for Scott Hi.

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Speaker 8: Scott, Hey, Tash, I vaguely remember you're You're into hot lettuce,

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Speaker 8: right like hot lettuce.

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Speaker 3: I love hot lettuce and I hate tropical malady. And

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Speaker 3: those are the only two things you ever need to

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Speaker 3: remember about me, Scott. With Keith traveling and Genevieve taking

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Speaker 3: a break because other people that at her job are traveling,

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Speaker 3: the next picture show studio is looking very empty, so

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Speaker 3: we brought in a repeat guest that we knew was

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Speaker 3: enthused about this week's pairing, Aavy Club veteran and culture

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Speaker 3: writer at large, Katie Rife. Welcome back, Katie.

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Speaker 6: Hi, Thank you for having me back. I'm very excited

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Speaker 6: to be.

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Speaker 5: Here, Katie.

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Speaker 3: What is your stance on hot lettuce? This is what

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Speaker 3: the world needs to know.

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Speaker 5: What Scott means.

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Speaker 3: By that is, should there be lettuce in burritos or

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Speaker 3: should they just be squashy, gooey packets of beans and meat.

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Speaker 6: I'm anti hot lettuce if that's what it is, No,

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Speaker 6: I don't. Yeah, I don't like lettuce on the euro

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Speaker 6: I don't like when they put lettuce in the burrito

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Speaker 6: it let us is supposed to be cool and Christy.

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Speaker 6: I'm sorry. I'm with Scott.

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Speaker 5: You're dead to me, Katie dead podcast?

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Speaker 3: That was a very very shortest guest period ever.

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Speaker 9: Why don't we have Katie on the on the show more?

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Speaker 9: I'm under staying. Why?

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Speaker 3: Well, I'll tell you right now that I strongly suspect

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Speaker 3: that she's going to be more aligned with you than

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Speaker 3: with me on the pairing to come, Scott, do you

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Speaker 3: want to tell us about that pairing? Tell us what

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Speaker 3: brought Katie back to the NPS studio.

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Speaker 8: Sure Romanian director Radu Jude, fresh off his Golden Bear

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Speaker 8: win at Berlin for his superb twenty twenty one movie

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Speaker 8: Bad Luck Banging or Looney Porn, is back with yet

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Speaker 8: another dark comedy centering on the act of capturing something

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Speaker 8: on film. Do Not Expect Too Much from the End

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Speaker 8: of the World spends close to three hours watching a

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Speaker 8: hairy productions assistant Angela, driving around Bucharest running errands on

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Speaker 8: behalf of an Austrian video team planning to shoot a

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Speaker 8: workplace safety video. Built around and requiring cooperation from an

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Speaker 8: actual victim of a workplace accident. It's a remarkably cynical

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Speaker 8: movie about every aspect of that video, from the creators

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Speaker 8: to the participants, to the company behind it, to Angela,

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Speaker 8: a foul mouth and frustrated young woman devoting far too

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Speaker 8: much of her life to driving between errands, working sixteen

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Speaker 8: hours a day to help make all this unworthy nonsense happen.

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Speaker 8: That cynicism, the humor behind it, all that time on

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Speaker 8: the road, and a particularly surprising cameo somewhere in the

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Speaker 8: middle reminded us of the way all those same elements

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Speaker 8: are used in the Player, Robert Altman's dark nineteen ninety

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Speaker 8: two comedy starring Tim Robbins as an embattled studio producer

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Speaker 8: trying to fend off the existential threat of a young

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Speaker 8: up and comer who might steal his job and the

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Speaker 8: much more physical threat of a jilted screenwriter who wants

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Speaker 8: to kill him.

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Speaker 3: So, what does a powerless gopher in twenty twenties romania

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Speaker 3: have in common with a powerful studio executive in nineteen

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Speaker 3: nineties Hollywood. We're going to dig into that in our

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Speaker 3: latest pairing Stay tuned.

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Speaker 10: From director Robert Altman comes a story of Hollywood.

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Speaker 9: I got a write right here.

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Speaker 11: It's got a pitch.

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Speaker 6: I think you ought to hear.

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Speaker 2: I think it's hot.

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Speaker 5: We open outside sound Quentin.

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Speaker 10: A graduate part two and missus Robinson had a stroke

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Speaker 10: so she can't talk and be funny.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, it'll be funny.

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Speaker 10: Griffin mill is a hot shot studio executive.

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Speaker 9: Yes, Angelica Griffin Mills, good to see you.

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Speaker 7: Welcome.

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Speaker 10: I'd he's heard every pitch.

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Speaker 11: It's exactly right.

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Speaker 6: It's out of Africa.

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Speaker 5: Meets pretty woman.

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Speaker 9: He knows all the angles.

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Speaker 7: We're gonna have to have a little sexy Yeah, sure

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Speaker 7: of course we'll go slowly pushes her counties down to

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Speaker 7: her knees.

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Speaker 9: And all the players.

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Speaker 7: Were the star no Star hospital stars, Bruce Willis, I want,

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Speaker 7: Bruce Phyllis, Bruce Woods, Schwatzenegger, Jumia Lobbins.

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Speaker 10: Now he's about to star.

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Speaker 9: How did this get here?

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Speaker 5: They're coming from the writer.

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Speaker 9: Hello is David Kahane. There please, This is.

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Speaker 7: Man in his most unforgettable story yet roughly speaking.

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Speaker 3: Movies about moviemaking cover two broad categories. The ones about

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Speaker 3: how Hollywood is a magical place that feeds the dreams

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Speaker 3: of the world, and the ones about how movie making

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Speaker 3: is hell and Hollywood is a cesspit of sin and depravity,

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Speaker 3: a corrupt, capitalistic nightmare, or an altered failure where dreams

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Speaker 3: go to be sold out and die. A lot of

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Speaker 3: feature films about filmmaking touch on both categories at once.

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Speaker 3: The sentimental ones about movie magic needs some drama to

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Speaker 3: spice up the story, and the cynical ones about artistic

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Speaker 3: compromise or criminal corruption need to at least acknowledge what

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Speaker 3: people are hoping for when they come to Hollywood and

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Speaker 3: what dreams they had before reality crushed them. Still, every

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Speaker 3: now and then a movie comes along that leaves the

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Speaker 3: starry eyed wonder of cinema behind in favor of just

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Speaker 3: pointing fingers at the messy sausage making process and the

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Speaker 3: benighted sausage makers behind it. Robert Altman's nineteen ninety two

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Speaker 3: Hollywood story The Player is one of those movies, and

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Speaker 3: it's no surprise that it came from an experienced, embittered

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Speaker 3: screenwriter and a jaded, equally experienced director, Michael Tolkien, who

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Speaker 3: appears in the Player as half of a nerdy, awkward

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Speaker 3: pair of screenwriter brothers, begging for a studio contract, wrote

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Speaker 3: the novel The Player after decades of fighting for a

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Speaker 3: Hollywood career and mostly watching his projects come apart. In

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Speaker 3: a nineteen ninety two interview with New York Times, Tolkien

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Speaker 3: says his screenwriting career basically went nowhere until he was

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Speaker 3: forty years old. It's no wonder that The Player, his

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Speaker 3: first novel, was about a screenwriter so frustrated that he

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Speaker 3: threatened to kill the studio executive who blew off his

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Speaker 3: latest pitch. It's ironic, then, that the book that he

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Speaker 3: wrote to distance himself from Hollywood and to show his

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Speaker 3: exasperation with the studio system wound up being option as

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Speaker 3: a movie and was adapted into his biggest hit. Robert

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Speaker 3: Altman didn't seek out The Player himself. His agent brought

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Speaker 3: him the script, and Altman agreed that it fit his sensibilities.

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Speaker 3: But he was one of the only people in Hollywood

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Speaker 3: in the nineteen nineties that could have made the movie

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Speaker 3: the way he made it. Expanding on the method he

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Speaker 3: used in the TV series Tanner eighty eight, mixing actors

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Speaker 3: playing themselves with actors playing fictional characters, he invited more

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Speaker 3: than sixty movie stars to appear in the film as themselves,

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Speaker 3: mostly in background shots or just speaking a line or

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Speaker 3: two as they navigate parties, public meals, or awards ceremonies,

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Speaker 3: deal with studio haunches and pitchmen, or toil away on set.

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Speaker 3: They're recognizable, surprising presence, and scene after scene the live

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Speaker 3: action equivalent of all those recognizable tunes and who framed

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Speaker 3: Roger Rabbit four years earlier? Gives the version of Hollywood

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Speaker 3: scene in the Player a particular sense of heightened reality.

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Speaker 3: The stars are a distraction for the audience, a game

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Speaker 3: of who's who that stretches throughout the movie, but they're

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Speaker 3: also a way of setting the stakes. The protagonist, embattled

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Speaker 3: studio vice president Griffin Mill played by Tim Robbins, has

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Speaker 3: power over all these famous people because of his job,

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Speaker 3: but he's more ephemeral and replaceable than they are, and

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Speaker 3: he knows it an up and coming producer may be

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Speaker 3: about to take his place at the studio. So it's

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Speaker 3: a bad time for Griffin to be distracted by a

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Speaker 3: series of postcards from a jilted screenwriter threatening his life.

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Speaker 3: Stressed by his work situation, he tries to deal with

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Speaker 3: the threat and ends up committing murder, then taking up

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Speaker 3: with his victim's girlfriend, the floaty, agreeable June, even though

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Speaker 3: by spending time with her he's incriminating himself with a

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Speaker 3: police department that never seems to be much in doubt

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Speaker 3: about his guilt. Tolkien's screenplay for The Player is cynical

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Speaker 3: about Griffin, who represents an entire echelon of studio flex

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Speaker 3: self absorbed and smug at best and murderous and monstrous

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Speaker 3: at worst. Is equally cynical about his studio, which protects

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Speaker 3: him and helps Hyder's crime to ward off any risk

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Speaker 3: of bad publicity. His contemporaries aren't any better. His competition

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Speaker 3: for the job, Larry Levy, sees writers as disposable and

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Speaker 3: insists that movies right themselves, and in Tolkien's view, even

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Speaker 3: those writers are schmucks who wave their ideals and esthetics

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Speaker 3: around only so long as they're convenient. They'll sell out

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Speaker 3: those ideals the second they see a chance.

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Speaker 5: To make a buck.

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Speaker 3: There aren't any heroes in this business, he suggests.

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Speaker 5: Or anyone worth rooting for.

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Speaker 3: But the Player isn't just a simple minded sneer at Hollywood.

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Speaker 3: It'd be Fi interview about the film, Altman says the

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Speaker 3: intended message is about greed and how the Hollywood of

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Speaker 3: his era has been given over to being counters and hypocrites.

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Speaker 3: He claims that's the reason all those stars were willing

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Speaker 3: to turn up to be in the movie, to help

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Speaker 3: protest greed in Hollywood, the focus on the bottom line

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Speaker 3: of her art, the focus on market data instead of storytelling.

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Speaker 3: As he put it in talking about why the film

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Speaker 3: resonated with audiences, quote, people are tired of and object

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Speaker 3: to people who just take, take, take, and don't give back.

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Speaker 3: In other words, when their object is just to make money.

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Speaker 3: That's why this film is being received so well. The

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Speaker 3: fact that he believes that suggests he's a little bit

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Speaker 3: immune to the cynicism of his own movie. It seems

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Speaker 3: it's likely that once words started spreading that Robert Altman,

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Speaker 3: the famed director of mash mckayn, Missus Miller, The Long

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Speaker 3: Goodbye and Nashville, was making a Hollywood satire full of

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Speaker 3: famous faces. No one in the field wanted to be

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Speaker 3: thought of as not famous enough to be in it,

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Speaker 3: or not representative enough of Hollywood fame. The stars aren't

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Speaker 3: the only way the player acknowledges Hollywood history. It's full

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Speaker 3: of references to an earlier age of movies. Its lengthy

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Speaker 3: opening one shot take references orson Well's Touch of Evil,

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Speaker 3: which Altman's characters then discuss in a little bit of

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Speaker 3: wink wink metacomedy. The studio walls are covered with posters

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Speaker 3: for earlier classics. Griffin's would be killer threatens him with

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Speaker 3: a sunset boulevard reference and a series of movie postcards.

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Speaker 3: And when Griffin tracks down the man he thinks is

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Speaker 3: threatening him, it's at a screening of Vittorio de Sicca's

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Speaker 3: Bicycle Thieves. This is a movie not just about movie making,

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Speaker 3: but about the movies that have already been made. And

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Speaker 3: it contrasts a past era of glory with a present

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Speaker 3: era of venal weasels like Griffin, men who literally get

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Speaker 3: away with murder. So maybe an in that sense, it

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Speaker 3: isn't entirely cynical about Hollywood, after all, It's just cynical

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Speaker 3: about what Hollywood has become and what in Waltman's You

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Speaker 3: at least it's given up to get there.

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Speaker 10: Don't tell me you came here to pitch me a story.

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Speaker 7: That's exactly what I've come to do. It's a good

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Speaker 7: one too. It's about a writer sort of, David Kaane.

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Speaker 10: David Kane, who's David Kahane?

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Speaker 7: Oh?

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Speaker 11: You mean.

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Speaker 7: Well, I meet a lot of writers, but this particular

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Speaker 7: writer that you met was murdered last night and back

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Speaker 7: of the Rialito Theater, right, I'm come to think of

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Speaker 7: the best thing is a good at place and die as.

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Speaker 3: Any all right, So where does The Player fit into

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Speaker 3: all y'all's canon of Hollywood movies about people making Hollywood movies?

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Speaker 8: I mean, to me, it's pretty high up there. It's

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Speaker 8: a great film. Is it better than Singing in the Rain?

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Speaker 8: Probably not, you know, but I mean, you know the

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Speaker 8: you know, I think of another movie like The Bad

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Speaker 8: and the Beautiful that's quite good, you know. And then

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Speaker 8: there are films that have that are not necessarily about

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Speaker 8: that subject per se, but reflect on making movies in

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Speaker 8: one way or another, maybe not are not necessarily quite

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Speaker 8: directly about studio filmmaking. I I like Hell Caesar the

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Speaker 8: if you want to go a little bit further into

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Speaker 8: the future from the Player, But I think The Player

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Speaker 8: is quite good, and it like Singing in the Rain,

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Speaker 8: if you want to, uh make that comparison, it really

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Speaker 8: becomes sort of a touchstone for a certain moment in

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Speaker 8: American filmmaking and how people were feeling about Hollywood and

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Speaker 8: both artists and audiences. And you know, that's you know,

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Speaker 8: and obviously, uh, the player is much more cynical about it,

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Speaker 8: but it's very revealing. It's and it gets more, it

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Speaker 8: becomes more revealing over time. I mean, you know, I

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Speaker 8: saw this film many times when it came out, you know,

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Speaker 8: on ninety two, and I hadn't seen it in a while,

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Speaker 8: and it's just it's just fastating. To look at it

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Speaker 8: from the perspective of the way studios are run today

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Speaker 8: and what their priorities are, it almost seems kind of quaint.

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Speaker 8: It's like, oh, they made dramas then they were like

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Speaker 8: talking about making a drama.

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Speaker 9: That's interesting.

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Speaker 8: So yeah, I think it's it's a it's still quite

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Speaker 8: a vital film, kind of an exciting film, and when

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Speaker 8: I would would write pretty highly in comparison to other

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Speaker 8: Hollywood films about Hollywood filmmaking.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think what Scott was saying about it being

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Speaker 6: very emblematic of his era, it's very much how I

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Speaker 6: feel about it, you know, even within the film itself,

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Speaker 6: so I'm sure we'll get into it later, but there's

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Speaker 6: lots of cameos from stars, and there's one point where

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Speaker 6: there's like an Entertainment Tonight style news anchor who's like,

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Speaker 6: the greatest stars of today, we're all here, and then

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Speaker 6: you see a shot of Gary Busey to me, like,

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Speaker 6: you know. And in nineteen ninety two, it was the

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Speaker 6: film industry was in I mean, I guess a pretty

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Speaker 6: similar place to where it is today, where you know,

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Speaker 6: they the decade of the eighties and the big blockbusters

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Speaker 6: was starting to collapse, and the indie revival had yet

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Speaker 6: to be born. You know, it was sort of in

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Speaker 6: an intermediate place there, and I and I think about

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Speaker 6: this movie, you know, in the grander schemes of things,

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Speaker 6: as sort of an intermediate too, you know, when you

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Speaker 6: think about classics like Films at Boulevard even eight and

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Speaker 6: a half, and then you have the Player in the nineties,

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Speaker 6: and then a lot of the examples of movies about

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Speaker 6: filmmaking I can think of from later periods. There's blah

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Speaker 6: blah Land, of course, but like I think of like

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Speaker 6: sound Land, Tails or the Canyons, kind of like trashy

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Speaker 6: stuff from.

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Speaker 3: This one feels like a lot more reflexive to me

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Speaker 3: in some ways than a lot of the films that

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Speaker 3: we're talking about. I mean, the Sunset Boulevard. It openly references.

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Speaker 3: There are a ton of direct references to classic movies

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Speaker 3: in this movie, whether it's you know, posters on the

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Speaker 3: wall whose taglines like comment on the action, you're sort

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Speaker 3: of you know, offering these these little almost chapter titles

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Speaker 3: to some of the things going on, to the film

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Speaker 3: quotes to the the stars themselves. I think you're right

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Speaker 3: about it just being capturing like a kind of specific moment.

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Speaker 3: It's it's simultaneously capturing, you know, the big complaints about

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Speaker 3: Hollywood shallowness and the executives coming in going and having

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Speaker 3: very little to do with the stars, and people coming

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Speaker 3: in with terrible ideas and being treated as like the

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Speaker 3: new hotness that is going to like, you know, fix

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Speaker 3: everything that's wrong with this industry by making it just

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Speaker 3: objectively worse. All of these things seem you know, kind

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Speaker 3: of like universal throughout the history of cinema. But then

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Speaker 3: you have like the specific inflection point where a movie

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Speaker 3: can reference ghost and yet have Whoopy Goldberg playing a

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Speaker 3: character rather than appearing as herself, as so many of

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Speaker 3: the other actors in this movie do. One of the

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Speaker 3: things that just fascinates me watching it today is seeing

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Speaker 3: some of the actors. Richard Grant comes to mind, you know,

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Speaker 3: who are here as playing character or Peter Gallagher. The

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Speaker 3: idea that Peter Gallagher as an up and coming studio

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Speaker 3: executive would be would just kind of like fade into

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Speaker 3: the background and like be a character rather than being

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Speaker 3: just evidently, oh there's another one of the movie stars

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Speaker 3: in this movie. You know this This was a point

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Speaker 3: where Peter Gallagher was not equal to the likes of

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Speaker 3: a Gary Busey in Fame. So it's interesting in that respect.

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Speaker 6: And Gina Gershaan has a very small part in the film.

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Speaker 6: She plays an assistant and she really only has a

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Speaker 6: few lines, which is another interesting example of what you're

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Speaker 6: talking about.

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Speaker 8: Pasha, she sort of hitches herself to the Larry Levy wagon. There,

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Speaker 8: she's she's a descendant talent in the within the studio.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she's kind of the all about Eve character in

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Speaker 3: this movie. I'd like, you can almost feel where she

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Speaker 3: was supposed to have a bigger arc, you know, where

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Speaker 3: her ascension was meant to be like kind of a

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Speaker 3: commentary on the cyclical nature of all of this stuff,

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Speaker 3: and then it just feels like it got cut, maybe

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Speaker 3: for time, or maybe because this isn't a movie that's

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Speaker 3: all that interested in women outside of the ways that

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Speaker 3: they can be used. But we'll get into that. Here's

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Speaker 3: the question that I'm I'm just sort of kicking around.

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Speaker 3: Does this movie fall under the umbrella of la noir?

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Speaker 3: Like we've talked a lot about La Noir. It doesn't

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Speaker 3: have somebody trying to solve a mystery, a murder mystery,

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Speaker 3: has somebody trying to evade a murder mystery being solved,

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Speaker 3: but it does have a bunch of the same elements

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Speaker 3: that we've kind of like tugged on in talking about

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Speaker 3: La Noir before, in terms of like the seediness and

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Speaker 3: sunniness combined with each other, the sense of kind of

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Speaker 3: a daylight la versus a nighttime la. It's got kind

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Speaker 3: of that like the hard bitten, cynical, like everybody's on

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Speaker 3: the make kind of feel of a noir, and it

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Speaker 3: uses some of the like the visuals of a noir,

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Speaker 3: particularly when it comes to like voyeurism and peering through windows.

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Speaker 5: But you could probably chalk all of.

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Speaker 3: That up to Altman, you know, drawing on film history

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Speaker 3: rather than trying to like emblemize a genre. I don't

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Speaker 3: know what do y'all think.

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Speaker 6: There are a couple of scenes in the film when

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Speaker 6: Tashi you were talking about el A Noir that popped

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Speaker 6: into my mind. And first is there's like a there's

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Speaker 6: a death scene and that, you know, that reminded me

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Speaker 6: of something out of an l A Noir. And the

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Speaker 6: scene laid in the film when they go out to

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Speaker 6: the desert Palm Springs and there's a desert hot Springs.

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Speaker 6: Excuse me, there's so many of those towns, And when

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Speaker 6: they're driving out to the desert and there's a shot

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Speaker 6: of the windmills in the background, that struck me as

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Speaker 6: very like el A Noir, A very devil in a

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Speaker 6: blue dress.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, And I think character wise of fred Ward character

394
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Speaker 8: really feels like a throwback to that era. I mean,

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Speaker 8: he's somebody who has a very strong read on what's happening.

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Speaker 9: Immediately you know it's his.

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Speaker 8: Job as a kind of a studio fixer type to

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Speaker 8: get Griffin out of this situation.

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Speaker 9: So that for sure, then I think I think You're right,

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Speaker 9: the murder scene is.

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Speaker 8: Very uh has that kind of noir quality and that

402
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Speaker 8: nocturnal la quality, And I think if you want to

403
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Speaker 8: really stretch it, a lot of La Noir's are about,

404
00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,239
Speaker 8: you know, municipal corruption, and I think if you if

405
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Speaker 8: you want to shift that over to the Hollywood system

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Speaker 8: and talk about the film is exposing some of the

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Speaker 8: uglier elements within Tinseltown, then I think you could probably

408
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Speaker 8: also sort of chalk that up to noir as well.

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Speaker 8: Though of course obviously I think it's it's chief mode

410
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Speaker 8: is satire and not necessarily not really noir.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's a comedy in a way. It's

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Speaker 3: it's one of those like fairly straight faced comedies that's

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Speaker 3: still kind of hilarious. It honestly, it reminds me a

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Speaker 3: good chunk of Get Shorty, among other movies. There are

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Speaker 3: there's so many movies that this movie reminds me of.

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Speaker 3: One of the biggest ones being American Psycho, the book

417
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Speaker 3: that this is based on. That the first line of

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Speaker 3: it is something like, sure enough Joe Levinson was having

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Speaker 3: a meeting without me. But the scene in the boardroom

420
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Speaker 3: where Griffin is kind of waiting for Larry Levy to

421
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Speaker 3: make an ass of himself and is in the process

422
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Speaker 3: kind of making an ass of himself. Just reminded me

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Speaker 3: so much of the business card comparing scene in American

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Speaker 3: Psycho the novel sort of like Narration, and the way

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Speaker 3: this movie is really filtered through the point of view

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Speaker 3: of a man who is powerful and wealthy and kind

427
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Speaker 3: of on top of his game, but is also like,

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Speaker 3: you know, frightened and lonely and confused and belligerent and

429
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Speaker 3: eventually a killer. Like it reminded me a lot of

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Speaker 3: American Psycho at the same time. You know, you've got

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Speaker 3: scenes like sailing into the breakfast knook, sitting down ordering

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Speaker 3: something and then like immediately faffing off without actually consuming

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Speaker 3: the thing you've ordered, which is you know, straight out

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Speaker 3: again shorty. There's just there are a lot of different

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Speaker 3: resonances here.

436
00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,439
Speaker 6: Yeah, when you were talking about American Psycho Griffin ordering

437
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 6: he had certain brands of water that he likes to

438
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 6: drink me always after a very specific expensive banks of

439
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,119
Speaker 6: water that reads very Patrick Bateman also.

440
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,639
Speaker 8: Well, and of course, you know, I think there's also

441
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,680
Speaker 8: that moment where he orders the water and it gets

442
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 8: he's upset, so he sends the water back because it's

443
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 8: in a wine glass rather than a water glass. It's

444
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 8: a very batman as finickiness. But I think that, you know,

445
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,159
Speaker 8: critical difference here is I think Griffin's very identifiable as

446
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 8: a human being.

447
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 9: I mean as a very.

448
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 8: Flawed, petty, hot blooded person, you know, not a psychopath,

449
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,160
Speaker 8: but somebody who's capable, who proves to be capable of violence,

450
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 8: and it proves to be capable of being quite diabolical

451
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:41,920
Speaker 8: and underhanded and gross.

452
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 9: But it's a it's a different thing.

453
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 8: There's a there's different different levels here between him and

454
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 8: Patrick Bateman.

455
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 6: I think, do you think that him being on the

456
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 6: precipice of losing his power, do you think that's important

457
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 6: to humanizing him?

458
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 3: I think it is in a way. We'll get back

459
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 3: to that in a second, because that that sort of

460
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 3: feeds into the next question I was going to ask.

461
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 3: But I will say, as far as the American psycho

462
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,920
Speaker 3: connection goes, the way the reality starts kind of breaking

463
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 3: down a little towards the end of this film also

464
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 3: feels very American psycho. The sequence where Griffin's sitting in

465
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 3: the Pasadena police station and everybody's laughing and the kind

466
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 3: of the images start to blur, the sound starts to blur,

467
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 3: and then we're somewhere else. Everything about that starts to

468
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 3: seem so unreal that I always expect that sequence to

469
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 3: end with him waking up, you know. It just it

470
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 3: feels like a classic Okay, wait, you're dreaming, you're having

471
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 3: a nightmare, like based on your anxieties kind of way

472
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,120
Speaker 3: of framing things. And I don't think that it's meant

473
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 3: to be like a dream, even though he does. We

474
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 3: do cut to him like lying down in his office,

475
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,919
Speaker 3: and there's no hint of like how that scene resolved.

476
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 3: I think it's meant to be presented as reality, which

477
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 3: is weird because it goes to some very strange places.

478
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 8: It just heightens his humiliation in that moment. I don't

479
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 8: think there's anything too I wouldn't read it any more

480
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 8: deeply than that. I think he's just they just kind

481
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 8: of catch him in this moment where he's saying something

482
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 8: they find ridiculous, and then their response is heightened, I

483
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 8: think in his in his head, But I don't think

484
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 8: it's you know, I don't think Altman is a sort

485
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 8: who's going to like push the surreality of that moment

486
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 8: too far. I think he just kind of gives it

487
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 8: a little bit of an amplification.

488
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 3: Well, it's a very amplified movie in a lot of ways.

489
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, And there's some weird stuff leading up to that,

490
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 6: like particularly with the like is Lyle love It's detective character.

491
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 6: This is the way he talks and the way he's

492
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 6: hanging around the edge of the He's an absurdest type

493
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 6: of character, almost sort of like the cowboy in mahalland Drive.

494
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 6: He's just always kind of there and always he rends

495
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 6: the fabric of reality every time he shows up.

496
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 9: He's lynch.

497
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 8: He's very lynchy, and he's always he's always kind of

498
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 8: going after bugs.

499
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,360
Speaker 3: In a really aggressive sort of way. As far as

500
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,199
Speaker 3: the question of humanizing Griffin, I kind of feel like

501
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 3: this movie maybe starts with him not being an unsympathetic character.

502
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 3: You know, he is a rich, powerful guy who is

503
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 3: kind of like standing there with the ability to like

504
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 3: make or break various people. And he has a lot

505
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 3: of power and seems pretty cavalier and smug about how

506
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 3: he uses it. But he's also you know, kind of

507
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 3: facing an existential threat to his job, to his livelihood,

508
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 3: to his relationship to his power. You know, he's in

509
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 3: a nice relationship with what seems to be a perfectly

510
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 3: nice woman. He is presented as the writer's guy, like

511
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 3: the guy who actually stands up for the writers and

512
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 3: produces movies where the writing matters, which practically makes him

513
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 3: a hero in the economy of this world where you know,

514
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 3: you've got a young, brash, up and comer saying that

515
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 3: movies don't need writers and that scripts write themselves.

516
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 8: I mean, I put the fattest possible asterisk on that.

517
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 8: As him being a champion to write it, I think

518
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 8: there's I think he may be that relatively, but I

519
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 8: think it's pretty plain to me from the start that

520
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 8: this is a pretty vapid human being who doesn't really

521
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 8: he's not really adding a whole lot to the culture.

522
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 8: One of the fun things that this film gets right

523
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 8: to me is the way people who are in movies

524
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 8: and familiar with movies talk about classics that they clearly

525
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 8: have not seen, you know what I mean, like The

526
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 8: Bicycle Thief, great movie, you know, you know.

527
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 9: And screenwriter calls him out on that.

528
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 8: Davidkhane kind of comes out and says, yeah, you came

529
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 8: in five minutes before the end, you don't know what

530
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 8: you're talking about, and he does that again, and of

531
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 8: course he gets the he gets the completely ridiculous speech

532
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 8: at the museum where they're restoring classics and movies are

533
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 8: art now more than ever. I mean, that is just

534
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 8: dripping with sarcasm from the part of the filmmakers. I mean,

535
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 8: it's such a beautiful movie in that respect that it

536
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 8: just it could not have been. It's just the perfect

537
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 8: project for the perfect director at the perfect time. I

538
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 8: mean just you know, you couldn't have put it in

539
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 8: the hands of somebody who had a larger bone to

540
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 8: pick with healthywood than Robert Altman, or at a time

541
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 8: when when when you know, he just was maybe at

542
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 8: his most frustrated.

543
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 9: So it was it.

544
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 8: Uh, it's a wonderful pairing of u material with the

545
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 8: with the right filmmaker, not just to say to say

546
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 8: nothing of his sense of style and the overlapping dialogue

547
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 8: and the multiple characters and the multiple planes of action.

548
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 8: I mean all of this stuff serves Altman's you know,

549
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 8: style so so well.

550
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 3: And the clout, like the clout to ask all of

551
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 3: these people to come take bit parts in his film.

552
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 3: You know, they all got paid scale. They all donated

553
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 3: that scale to a charity. You know, nobody was getting rich.

554
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 3: This This was this is the we are the world

555
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 3: of you know, cynical, hard bitten, hull Hollywood satire movies.

556
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 5: But everybody showed up. So I'm very curious what.

557
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 3: You think about that quote about Altman thinking that everybody

558
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 3: showed up to this movie, you know, because they want

559
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 3: they wanted to have a part in like highlighting the

560
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 3: the greed of the system was that it or you know,

561
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 3: did people want to either want to work with Altman

562
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 3: or you know, just hear who is going to be

563
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 3: in this movie. I really wonder if there was a

564
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 3: point where kind of the word of mouth in Hollywood

565
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 3: was Altman is making this movie, and so and so

566
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 3: and such and such or in it, and so are

567
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 3: the these following people. And therefore, if you don't have

568
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 3: a cameo in this movie, are.

569
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 9: You really Hollywood royal Hollo if you're not in this movie?

570
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,719
Speaker 6: I think it's the second one, Tasha, because I can

571
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 6: very much see some actors calling their agents and being.

572
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 11: Like Julie Robinsons in the player, why in the player,

573
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 11: you know, I can very much see some people getting

574
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 11: upset when they found out that, you know that maybe

575
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 11: a rival of theirs is in this film, and they

576
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 11: want to be in the film too, because everybody's going

577
00:28:58,240 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 11: to be in this film to show what a good

578
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 11: same as of humor they have fun.

579
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 3: Fact, by the way, from the Michael tokenbook, that movie

580
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 3: is Dustin Hoffman and Kathleen Turner in those roles and

581
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 3: turning it into Bruce Willis and Julia Roberts. Again, it's

582
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 3: so of the moment, you know, it's so so clearly

583
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 3: meant to be whose name would you drop in this

584
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 3: in this period? Like who is the hot actor that

585
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 3: obviously would be the A lister that you don't want

586
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 3: to get for this like completely cynical exercise.

587
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 8: Also, yeah, literally every role too. The pitches already are

588
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 8: always the same. It's like popular movie X meets popular

589
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 8: movie why And I'm thinking, like Bruce Willis for this

590
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 8: role and Julia Roberts for that role, and that's how

591
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 8: you pitch it. It's this, you know, they're always the

592
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 8: same kind of people. But with regard of the ensemble,

593
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 8: I mean, again, perfect director at the perfect time. I

594
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 8: mean that, you know, Robert Atman had is famous for

595
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 8: his ensemble work. I mean, he did a wedding, had

596
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 8: what two dozen major characters in it. There are plenty

597
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 8: of actors in this movie who have been in previous

598
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 8: Altman films, so you already have the kind of the

599
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 8: ball rolling on that and then everything else. I think

600
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 8: it becomes like this snowball effect. It was like with Oppenheimer.

601
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 8: It's like, if you're a male character actor, Holly, would

602
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 8: you got to feel like a sucker if you're not

603
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 8: if you were didn't have a role in in Oppenheimer.

604
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 8: But in any case, yeah, I think it became the

605
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 8: sort of party, you know, and you know a lot

606
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 8: of these scenes were literally parties. I mean, you've got

607
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 8: Jack Lemon playing the piano in the background, I'm scene

608
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 8: and it's just like you know, in the way Altman

609
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 8: shoots his movies, it's like you can he loves to

610
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 8: kind of start with a setting and kind of explore

611
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 8: that area and get different pieces of conversation. And I

612
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 8: think it's a real strength of this movie too, with

613
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 8: regard to the references that are rampant in it, is

614
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 8: that Altman is okay with people missing some things and

615
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 8: not missing some things. I mean, for me, it's it's

616
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 8: kind of as a cinophile, it's kind of a treat

617
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 8: to be able to do the do the leo on

618
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 8: once up Time on Hollywood thing and sort of point

619
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 8: out all the references.

620
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 9: But he doesn't.

621
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 8: He's not hung up on whether unlike other films that

622
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 8: are that are full of film references, He's not overly

623
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 8: concerned about everybody the audience getting everything that's referenced. And

624
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 8: it's kind of what a pleasure of the movie to

625
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 8: kind of make these like little connections are kind of

626
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 8: these very subtle winks to pass works to certain you know.

627
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 8: I mean, like you mentioned Tasha the whole ghost thing

628
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 8: where where where that's mentioned and yet and yet will

629
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 8: be what Goldberg is in the movie but playing a

630
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 8: different character. I mean, it's these kinds of like very

631
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 8: small touches, you know, that make the movie fun.

632
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 6: Well to follow up on that, Scott, I think it's

633
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 6: really I love the way that structurally it's book ended,

634
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 6: where the scenes you were talking about where everyone is

635
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 6: pitching and they're like, oh, and we're going to get

636
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 6: Julia Roberts for the role. We're going to get Bruce

637
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 6: Willis for the role. That's the very beginning of the movie,

638
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 6: and then the film within the film is the very

639
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 6: end of the movie. And I love it. I love

640
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 6: that he bookends it that way. And I have to say,

641
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 6: when Julia Roberts came on the screen at the end,

642
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 6: I chuckled, but I laughed out loud when was sou

643
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 6: my good though? It was so funny.

644
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 3: Maybe that ending is even funnier because Richard Grant is

645
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 3: there just like actively selling out, selling out as hard

646
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 3: as he can, like he is. He pushes so hard

647
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 3: in that pitch session for like it has to be cynical,

648
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 3: it has to not have a Hollywood ending. You have

649
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 3: to promise it won't have a Hollywood ending. And then

650
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 3: there he is at the end, and there's like a

651
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 3: bitterer version of this movie where he's, you know, out

652
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 3: on the street watching his dream being sold out, you know,

653
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 3: and he's he's signed away his rights for for some pittance.

654
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 3: Instead he's sitting there in the room saying, basically, did

655
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,479
Speaker 3: you see how this is how the ending played in Poughkeepsie. Like,

656
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 3: of course, we had to compromise my entire artistic vision

657
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 3: in order to make this terrible one liner at the

658
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 3: end happen. Like, this is great, It's gonna make me

659
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 3: a bunch of money.

660
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 6: I think you could sort of, you know, talking about

661
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 6: the structure of the movie too. I think it, you know,

662
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 6: him selling out. I think the movie's really saying something

663
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 6: about Hollywood endings and happy endings in the way that

664
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 6: those are manufactured. Because part of Richard E. Grant's pitch

665
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 6: is he keeps saying it has to end sad because

666
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 6: that's how it really is. Hollywood end reality deal. Yeah,

667
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 6: it's reality exactly. But then he ends up just giving

668
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 6: in to the Hollywood version of it, and I think

669
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 6: it's saying something about manufacturing reality. Yeah.

670
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 3: And what he says is, you know, nobody liked the

671
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 3: original ending.

672
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 5: That's reality. They love this ending. That's reality.

673
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 8: I love Richard Granted this movie so much.

674
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 9: He's so fun. That line's great.

675
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 8: I can listen to his pitch for Habeas Corpus all

676
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 8: day long, with the whole thing about the Japanese lanterns

677
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 8: and his little hand gestures so brilliant. Did you all

678
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 8: ever see the movie The Life of David Gail, The

679
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 8: really horrible like would be Oscar winner that ended up

680
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 8: getting like pushed to the next year because it was

681
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 8: a was like a big turkey.

682
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 9: Do you remember this at all?

683
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 5: I remember it, but I did not see the movie.

684
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 8: I mean it had and it had like huge stars

685
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 8: in it. It's like Kevin Spacey, Kate Winslet, you know,

686
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 8: Laura Lenny, big time stars. Anyway, it is basically the

687
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 8: end of Habeas.

688
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 9: Corpus is the end of life.

689
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 8: It's like that level of cynical ridiculous, you know, person

690
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 8: getting freed from death row spoiler sorry for the Life

691
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 8: of David Gale, which I think has been completely forgotten.

692
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 8: But I thought that was kind of funny that when

693
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 8: it came out it was such a howler, and then

694
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 8: that I thought about it in relation to The Player

695
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,959
Speaker 8: and how it completely sells out in the same way.

696
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 8: The other thing, it actually reminds me of maybe my

697
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 8: most quoted line throughout the years from The Player, Beyond

698
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 8: beyond the studio logo of course movies now more than ever,

699
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 8: that's something we say all the time, is no stars,

700
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 8: just talent. It just that's like a perfect, a perfect

701
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 8: line of just like that's how he started this industry.

702
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 8: He didn't get you didn't have any big movie stars,

703
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 8: no stars, just talent and then we're gonna end with

704
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 8: this innocent woman getting gassed. It's just a great Yeah,

705
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 8: that's reality. Oh so good. That's a very funny movie.

706
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 10: Hi, I'm John Ray, your friend and jeweler at Shang

707
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 10: Company getting engaged. So friends, listen up. Shame Company. Engagement

708
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 10: rings are protected with our all inclusive, free lifetime warranty.

709
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 10: We stand behind the same quality we've offered since nineteen

710
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,439
Speaker 10: twenty nine. Our rings are crafted to last. It's why

711
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 10: our warranty is the only one that protects your center stone.

712
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 10: We also cover repairs, resizings, cleanings, and so much more.

713
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 10: That's money you keep for you and your family because

714
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 10: a friend always has your back. Shame Company, your friend

715
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 10: and jeweler.

716
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 3: So, speaking of all of these cameos, I just I'm wondering,

717
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 3: given how many of them there are, and how different

718
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 3: the scales are in some of them, how some of

719
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 3: them are kind of flattering to the cameo E and

720
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 3: some art what stands out for you and all of this,

721
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 3: what do you find more memorable than like just the

722
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 3: giant list of people in this film.

723
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 8: Are you talking about like kind of favorite moments or

724
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 8: like also people appearing in them as themselves. You're not

725
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 8: talking about like, you know, small parts for actors who

726
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 8: are actually playing characters.

727
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, No, I'm talking about people as themselves. I mean,

728
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 3: I'll give you an example the movie within the movie

729
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,280
Speaker 3: that we see a little clip of with Lily Tomlin,

730
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 3: you know, full on noir movie, like standing with her

731
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 3: face against a window pane with rain dripping down outside,

732
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 3: so it almost looks like she's crying, but not quite,

733
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 3: and she's got the cynical, hard bitten look on her

734
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 3: face that says, no, I'm not crying, but the world

735
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 3: is crying for me. And I think it's Robert Carodine

736
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 3: behind her, like.

737
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 5: On the phone.

738
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 3: We pull back to the screening room and a conversations

739
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 3: going on there, but on the screen he says something

740
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 3: and she turns around and says something like are you

741
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 3: talking to me? Just like in the most irritated voice imaginable.

742
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 3: And it's just this little moment of unreality where you

743
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 3: don't know whether this is like a scripted part of

744
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 3: the movie, like the scene is carrying on, or it's

745
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 3: a tiff between actors, just like an angry little moment

746
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 3: on the set that happened that nobody's paying attention to

747
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 3: within the reality of the film obviously, and that just

748
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 3: really caught me. So much of the cameo stuff in

749
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 3: this movie is about stars living their lives in the

750
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 3: real world. Like I love the little moment with John

751
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 3: Cusack and Angelica Houston where Griffin kind of pauses them

752
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 3: both to shake hands with them and kind of do

753
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 3: a like who loves you baby kind of thing, and

754
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 3: they both have this sort of plastered on smile that's

755
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 3: just kind of the world's biggest I can't appear to

756
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 3: be an asshole in public or it will be on

757
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 3: the papers by tonight. But I don't care who you are,

758
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 3: like smile, handshake, just keep moving kind of thing going on,

759
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 3: and so much so many of the cameos here are

760
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 3: that kind of thing, like star in public trying to

761
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 3: live their lives while being famous. But this is one

762
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 3: of the rare the Lily Tomlin sequence is one of

763
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 3: the rare times where we're watching actors in this movie

764
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 3: doing their thing, like making their art, and so that

765
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 3: one really stands out for me as this moment where

766
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 3: we're getting to see Lily Tomlin, you know, not as

767
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 3: somebody having brunch or walking down the Street, but as

768
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 3: somebody like actually in the process of making art. And

769
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 3: I just don't think that that's a particularly interesting moment

770
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 3: in the film for me.

771
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 6: Well, it's funny you say that, because for me, one

772
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 6: that stands out in terms of like dropping the mask

773
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 6: is the scene where Burt Reynolds shows up recently and

774
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 6: Larry Levy introduced himself to him, and I forget what

775
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 6: he says that he says, Oh, I was only working

776
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 6: for him at the time. Still hold it again, and

777
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 6: there's a whole universal backstory there that has never explained.

778
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 6: And then you know, Burt Reynolds is kind of like Naus.

779
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 6: He goes uh huh, and then the second walks away

780
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 6: goes apple Like that don't stands out to me?

781
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 8: That's great, Yeah, you hit on something I was gonna

782
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,439
Speaker 8: touch on as well, which is when these operators are

783
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 8: in these public spaces that are full of celebrities, there

784
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 8: are these backstories that are suggested. I mean you get that,

785
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 8: you get it explicit in that scene. But even in

786
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 8: the exchange between Griffin and John Cusick and Angel Houston,

787
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 8: who were hot off of the Grifters, right, so we're

788
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 8: right in that era, you can sense that there's something

789
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 8: The awkwardness in that exchange is suggestive in its way too.

790
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 9: And then and then it's like, how do they feel

791
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 9: about this guy? You know what I mean?

792
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:34,439
Speaker 8: And you know, these executive types probably have frustrated them,

793
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 8: a lot of these people, so when they walk into

794
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 8: the room, there's there are a lot of bad feelings there,

795
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 8: but a lot of ugly histories.

796
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 9: But how does that end up playing? And then you

797
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 9: get another scene.

798
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,240
Speaker 8: Another kind of favorite of mine is is when Malcolm McDowell,

799
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:48,879
Speaker 8: who's kind of old enough to not give a shit,

800
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 8: kind of lets Griffin have it when Griffin tries to

801
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 8: be tries to do his usual gland handing, and malcolmackdell

802
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 8: is like, you know, you've got something to say, you know,

803
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 8: say it to my face, which then leads to another

804
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 8: favorite moment where he then sees Annie McDowell and says

805
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 8: that he just ran into Malcolm McDowell and they're not related,

806
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 8: but I just but I do like that those, uh,

807
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 8: that one event kind of connects to another.

808
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 9: So that's kind of like a.

809
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 8: Small little favorite moment. Another one that I that I

810
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,359
Speaker 8: would repeat all the time. I mean, this was this

811
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 8: movie came out right in the middle of my sort

812
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 8: of sinophilic undergraduate college days. And and and so, you know,

813
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 8: seeing all been at this time when when he was

814
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 8: starting to get his form back and then being involved

815
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 8: in cinematic arts, which was kind of our film programming

816
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 8: unit at the University of Georgia. This is a film

817
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 8: that we referenced all of the time, and so it

818
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 8: was like, so there's a lot of stuff about Malcolm

819
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 8: mcdollan and Annie McDowell for sure. And then and then

820
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 8: of course when made shortcuts, we would kind of do

821
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 8: a little forget it. It's I'm gonna go talk now.

822
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 8: I'm doing old man stuff, talking to my college days.

823
00:40:57,920 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 8: Let's stop there.

824
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 3: I'm gonna throw out one more thing about the John

825
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 3: Cusack Angelica Houston moment, and that's they're not just reacting

826
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 3: to him as somebody that they have kind of a

827
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 3: hostile relationship with or a history with.

828
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:11,879
Speaker 5: They're reacting to him.

829
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 3: And this is something that Alman talked about a bunch

830
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 3: in that BFI interview, is that sense of like Flax

831
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 3: like him come and go a lot faster than the

832
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 3: stars do. The youngest stars, the starlits may only have

833
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 3: like a movie or two in them, or they may

834
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 3: never get big. But the people that are in this

835
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 3: movie are still, for the large part recognizable, like stars

836
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 3: that we know that had been stars in some cases

837
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 3: for decades at that time and are still stars today

838
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 3: if they're still with us, whereas people like Griffin just

839
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 3: kind of blow through and often have much shorter careers.

840
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 3: And I feel like one of the ways that they're

841
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 3: treating him there is like just kind of the latest

842
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 3: in a series of pop up Kleenexes, Like they don't

843
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 3: need to koutout to him, they don't need to make

844
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 3: friends with him, because who knows if he's going to

845
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 3: be there tomorrow, and given the action of the movie,

846
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 3: even less likely because he's already in the process of

847
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 3: being replaced, Which takes me back to the point that

848
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 3: I was making about when we start the movie, he's

849
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 3: not the worst guy in the world, Like he's certainly

850
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 3: not a warm human person that we love and sympathize

851
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 3: with and want to spend time with, but he's not

852
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 3: flagged as a villain. And by the end of the

853
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,720
Speaker 3: movie he's like an outright villain. You know, he's become

854
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 3: a Machiavelian bastard. Who like mistreats people deliberately for fun.

855
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 3: He's a liar, He's a murderer who gets away with it.

856
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 3: He's somebody who responds to blackmail with a just a

857
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 3: pretty cynical sure, yep, whatever you want.

858
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 5: I will just throw the resources of my.

859
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 3: Studio into paying you off to make sure I continue

860
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 3: to get away with murder. And I guess my question is,

861
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 3: does it feel to you, guys, like the point is

862
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 3: that Hollywood he was corruptible, so Hollywood corrupted him to

863
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 3: the worst degree possible. Or is this just who he

864
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 3: always was and we're seeing him more clearly, or is

865
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,439
Speaker 3: it more about like only the word sleeves bag's rise

866
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 3: to the top, Like what exactly is this movie saying

867
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 3: about people who end up where he ends up and

868
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 3: what that means about Hollywood.

869
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 8: I mean, I'd say that he is who he is

870
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 8: from the start. I don't think there's an enormous arc

871
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 8: there so much in his character, maybe more in our

872
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 8: understanding of who he is as he's revealed to us

873
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 8: throughout the movie, what he's capable of, because I think,

874
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 8: to quote Bert Reynolds and this, he's one of a breed,

875
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 8: as they say, he you know, and to me it's

876
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 8: quite it's pretty telling that by the end he and

877
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 8: he and Larry Levy are peas in a pod. Basically

878
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 8: they're on the same page about how movies should get made.

879
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 8: And I think they always were. I think they're the

880
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 8: same type. Even though even if in the reason there

881
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 8: was any kind of hostility at all is because Griffin

882
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 8: was worried about his job. But in terms of I

883
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 8: don't feel like the kind of things that the level

884
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 8: of cynicism and you know, you sort of base commercialism

885
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,879
Speaker 8: that Larry Leevy brings to the table is at all

886
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 8: antithetical to the way Griffin approaches his job. I think

887
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 8: that's I think he just wants to keep his job

888
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 8: and we'll do it. We'll do it, will do whatever

889
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 8: is necessary and ultimately and when it comes to the

890
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 8: women in his life, he's temperamentally much more suited not

891
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 8: to his story editor played by Cynthie Stevenson, but June

892
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 8: Goodman's docte played by Greta Scacchi, who's there's a kind

893
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 8: of a cool vacancy to her that you know, fits

894
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 8: him like a glove. I think it really he sort

895
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 8: of finds his person.

896
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,760
Speaker 3: We'll talk about her in a second. But Katie, I'm

897
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 3: curious what you think about Griffin's arc.

898
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 6: I don't think it's saying that Hollywood is uniquely evil.

899
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 6: It might be a Petri dish that has just the

900
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 6: right conditions for someone like him to drive. But I

901
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 6: think that he I think that's what worth seeing he honestly,

902
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 6: you know, And maybe this will lead into more conversation

903
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 6: about the women in the film. But like I kind

904
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 6: of thought, as a male thing that when men feel

905
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 6: like their power and status are being threatened, they can

906
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 6: when you back them in into a corner, he can bite,

907
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,800
Speaker 6: you know, Like he gets real desperate and sweaty, real quickly,

908
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 6: and it really is about his fear of losing his status.

909
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 6: So I think there is an element of that, and

910
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 6: Hollywood's just the perfect place for something like that too

911
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 6: unfold because people do write them fall so quickly.

912
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 3: Well, let's talk about June, because June, for me, is

913
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 3: the big problem with this movie. And I've been reading

914
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 3: Robert Alman's interviews about this character and realizing that he

915
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:47,359
Speaker 3: intended for her to, you know, to be like a

916
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 3: non character effectively, you know that it is entirely deliberate.

917
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 3: I guess makes it a little better, But I want

918
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 3: to reuse something from that BFI interview that I just

919
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 3: found very interesting. Effectively, he's talking about how he framed

920
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 3: June and like Griffin's discovery of her. You know, the

921
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 3: reason that he framed it the way he did, with

922
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 3: Griffin watching her and she doesn't know he's there, was

923
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 3: because he felt that this man would only be interested

924
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 3: in a woman if he created her effectively, if he

925
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 3: had complete control, if he was able to map whatever

926
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:27,280
Speaker 3: he wanted to see on her. And she's never really

927
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 3: a person. She is a like an image that he

928
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 3: shapes for himself. So he says this, I felt we

929
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,720
Speaker 3: should make her a movie character. I tried to explain

930
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 3: it this way to Greta. You're not a real person.

931
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 3: You're acting in a movie. You don't have to find

932
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 3: out the truth in this woman because there isn't any truth.

933
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 3: She doesn't really exist. You have to find out what

934
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 3: it is that becomes intriguing to this guy. And I

935
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 3: find it fascinating.

936
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 5: You know that a.

937
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 3: Director would just come out and say to the leading

938
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 3: lady in his movie, your character isn't real.

939
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 5: She doesn't exist.

940
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 3: She doesn't have any internality or personhood. She's just an

941
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 3: empty shell for this guy to paint as something that

942
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 3: he desires.

943
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 5: That's it's fascinating to me.

944
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 3: And yet even though it was intentional, it's still just

945
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 3: a big problem with the story for me. I don't know,

946
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 3: how do you how do you all feel about it?

947
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 6: You know, we were talking about all about Eves moment earlier.

948
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 6: It is a common thing in films, and I don't

949
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 6: love it, you know, like the woman who basically exists

950
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 6: to be a love interest, and that's what she's there for.

951
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 6: I think on the note of her not existing, an

952
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 6: interesting character detail on that is the first time Griffin

953
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,399
Speaker 6: goes to her house, to June's house, and he asked

954
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 6: her if she watched a film. She says no, And

955
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 6: then she says He's like, well do you read? And

956
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,760
Speaker 6: she's like no. And so in the world of these characters,

957
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 6: where all they do, you know, it's all about writing

958
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 6: scripts and writers and filmmaking, and they're talking about films all

959
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 6: the time, she might as well not exist, you know,

960
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 6: because she's just not part of that world at all.

961
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 6: And yeah, I mean I wasn't thrilled with this character either,

962
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 6: but I acknowledge that it is a stock type, you know,

963
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 6: a woman who's just in a film to have something

964
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 6: for the man to pursue. And that kind of ties

965
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 6: into what I was talking about earlier about the film

966
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,720
Speaker 6: being about, you know, a man who's afraid of losing

967
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 6: his status, because having a woman like that on your

968
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 6: arm is the status thing, right.

969
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, And he does take like just the first opportunity

970
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 3: he can to parade her around as an objet dart

971
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 3: for everybody to see, to the point where he engineers

972
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 3: his much smarter girlfriend out of town, not so he

973
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 3: can go sleep with somebody else in private, but so

974
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 3: he can take her to a giant Hollywood affair where

975
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 3: she's going to be seen, as she points out, by

976
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 3: hundreds of her closest friends.

977
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 9: I like this character because I like it for two reasons.

978
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 8: I like her as a contrast to his girlfriend, because

979
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 8: she is really the one sympathetic character in the In

980
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 8: the movie, she is a person of a substance. She

981
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 8: is trying to guess. I mean, she's she's she's out,

982
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 8: she's out.

983
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 5: Oh sorry, sorry, I thought you were talking about that.

984
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 8: June is actual like the one who's out buying the

985
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 8: Bonnie is about out out picking up the Tom Wolfe

986
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 8: novel and and uh and is really you know, intent

987
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 8: on on doing her job and trying to do trying

988
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 8: to do a good job. Who isn't the Gina Gershon

989
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 8: Taype who's who's who's desperate to get ahead but is

990
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 8: but is just kind of in the trenches, and and

991
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,720
Speaker 8: uh and trying to make movies and seems quite sincere

992
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 8: about it, you know, where whereas June is like there

993
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 8: is to me she is an artificial construct, but in

994
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 8: a way that's consistently fascinating and strange. I mean that

995
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 8: you know, her her artwork, which is never completed and

996
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 8: never shown and and uh built upon it seems it's

997
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 8: it's both you know, mysterious and vapid at the same time,

998
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 8: which is kind of what this character is. And her

999
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 8: talking about how she doesn't read, but she's interested in

1000
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:03,359
Speaker 8: what words in phrases, but not complete shit, doesn't she.

1001
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 5: Doesn't care for complete sentences, right.

1002
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:07,919
Speaker 8: I mean, I just think there's kind of like, there's

1003
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 8: a way you could have made a character like this

1004
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 8: who's kind of a blank, who's not compelling in any

1005
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 8: way because because what's compelling about somebody who is not

1006
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:20,919
Speaker 8: a person of substance, But there is I think there

1007
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 8: is embedded in this character a kind of mystery, because

1008
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 8: it's like you're trying to like figure out really who

1009
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 8: she is, what she's all about, why she was with

1010
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 8: David Kahane, you know, why she's with Griffin, what she wants?

1011
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,240
Speaker 8: You know, you never you never get a good answer

1012
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:37,800
Speaker 8: because because again you're dealing with kind of a cipher.

1013
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 8: But to be there's something kind of compelling about that

1014
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 8: and unusual and distinctive.

1015
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,240
Speaker 3: I mean, if there was maybe more of a sense

1016
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 3: that the movie did care about solving that mystery, or

1017
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 3: even believed that there was any answer to it, I

1018
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 3: would feel differently.

1019
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,359
Speaker 6: You're talking about this intrigue in this mystery, and it's

1020
00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 6: like to what end. In the end, she doesn't really

1021
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 6: matter to the film, So like, what's the point, Like

1022
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 6: what's the difference between a cipher and a blank? If

1023
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 6: there's no purpose to it, because.

1024
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 9: It's she's she's it's revealing of Griffin's character.

1025
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 8: And who he really is and what he wants and

1026
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 8: kind of like in where he ends up at the

1027
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 8: end of the movie. You know, he's not gonna he's

1028
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 8: not the type of person who is going to end

1029
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 8: up with or is even really worthy of someone like Bonnie.

1030
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 8: But in this fantasy that that gets constructed at the

1031
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 8: end where he comes home and he's got away with it,

1032
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:29,919
Speaker 8: and she's she's pregnant, and you know, and and there's

1033
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 8: something you know, so wholly artificial about that she fits

1034
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 8: right in, you know so so I think in the

1035
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 8: in the grand scheme of the movie, she makes a

1036
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 8: whole lot of sense.

1037
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 3: She makes sense for the narrative. But effectively, what you're

1038
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:46,280
Speaker 3: saying is, you know this, this is a movie type.

1039
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:50,240
Speaker 3: This is a movie flaw, like a very recognized movie flaw.

1040
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 3: But I don't think it's making fun of this kind

1041
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 3: of flaw on movies because it's within the reality level

1042
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 3: of the movie, and it's just it's never examined. You know,

1043
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 3: so many things about what people expect and settle for

1044
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 3: it in movies and how how movies are made cynically

1045
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,359
Speaker 3: are called out here when they happen in the reality level.

1046
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 3: But here in the reality level, you've got the problem.

1047
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 3: You know, so much of this movie is about just

1048
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:19,840
Speaker 3: how shallow and constructed and artificial and audience tuned eighties

1049
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 3: movies in particular got and this has all of the

1050
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 3: problems of you know, the the eighties movie trophy character,

1051
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 3: but it isn't interested in like analyzing those issues or

1052
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 3: rectifying them, or even calling them out.

1053
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 5: Like it is.

1054
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 3: It's possible to have a character like this who is

1055
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:42,359
Speaker 3: just there for the Demanda map his fantasies on and

1056
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 3: still imply that there's something there, but you're never going

1057
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 3: to be pushedback. Like I'm really thinking here of Charlie

1058
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 3: Coffman's and Noma Lisa and how that entire story is

1059
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,279
Speaker 3: about a woman that has things mapped onto her that

1060
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 3: you know she's not in control of and maybe even

1061
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 3: isn't aware of. But by the end of the movie,

1062
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,359
Speaker 3: like we don't dig deep into her, but it is

1063
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 3: at least implied that there's something there, and this movie

1064
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 3: never does that.

1065
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 8: I don't think it's interest to do so. Really, it's

1066
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 8: just I don't think. I mean, I just think she's

1067
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 8: part of the overall kind of scheme of the film.

1068
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 8: I don't think, and I think just her presence in

1069
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 8: the film and her role in sort of the mechanism

1070
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:23,399
Speaker 8: of it and the irony of it at the end.

1071
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 9: That's enough. I think that kind of just fits into

1072
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 9: what the film is kind of trying to do overall. Well.

1073
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 3: As it happens, we're looking at this movie in conjunction

1074
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,760
Speaker 3: with another movie that is centered on a female viewpoint

1075
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 3: but also ends by kind of dropping her into the

1076
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 3: background and losing her point of view. I think that

1077
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 3: there's a lot that these two movies kind of say

1078
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:48,280
Speaker 3: to each other about the female viewpoint and the female presence.

1079
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:49,959
Speaker 5: And there are a bunch of.

1080
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 3: Other things that I still want to talk about in

1081
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:53,759
Speaker 3: the player that I think are going to come up

1082
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 3: pretty naturally when we put it up against the other

1083
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:59,359
Speaker 3: movie in this pairing. I do not expect too much

1084
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 3: from the end of the world. So for the moment,

1085
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:02,839
Speaker 3: we're going to take a break and we'll be back

1086
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 3: with feedback. Now it's time for feedback, but before we

1087
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 3: get to it, we want to shout out film spotting.

1088
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 3: The next Picture Shows Mothership podcast hosted by Adam Kempenar

1089
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 3: and Josh Larson. As we record this, Adam and Josh

1090
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 3: have just celebrated the release of Godzilla x Kong. Yes

1091
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 3: that's how it's written. The New Empire with their own

1092
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:35,360
Speaker 3: Godzilla versus Kong team up, comparing the original nineteen fifty

1093
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 3: four Godzilla to the original nineteen thirty three King Kong.

1094
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 3: So I know who I'm rooting for in that face off.

1095
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 3: I'm a little more conflicted about their current poll, pitning

1096
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 3: Hitchcock's rear window against a Vertigo.

1097
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 5: What do you two think about that face off?

1098
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 9: Which one the Vertigo rear window or the King Kong

1099
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 9: Vertigo rear window.

1100
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 3: You're only allowed to pick one or the other in

1101
00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 3: their poll.

1102
00:54:59,040 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 9: That sucks.

1103
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,760
Speaker 8: I mean, there's those are I would go with Vertigo

1104
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,239
Speaker 8: just because I think that I think there's just it's

1105
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,760
Speaker 8: a I hate this, No, I can't.

1106
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 9: This is terrible, this is terrible.

1107
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 3: I'm sorry.

1108
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 9: To see.

1109
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 8: I just took my kids to see Rear Window at

1110
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 8: Music Box and it is just it's it's uh, it

1111
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 8: was a wonderful experience. And and a film, I think,

1112
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 8: a film that's that's rich and uh, you know, a

1113
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 8: movie about movies as we're talking about today. But but

1114
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 8: Vertigo is just what a mystery box that film is

1115
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 8: and so brilliantly, so brilliant and colorful, and you know.

1116
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 5: And and there's not a third option.

1117
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 8: I guess we're gonna put a gun to my head.

1118
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 8: I'd say Vertigo, but only because I'm a kind of snobby.

1119
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 3: Definitely putting a gun to your head, Katie. No gun

1120
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 3: to your head Vertigo or rear window.

1121
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 6: Vertigo, just because I feel like, you know, it's got

1122
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 6: that a mystery aspect, and also I think psycho sexually

1123
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 6: Vertico is such a rich text. Not that we're rear window,

1124
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 6: is it, But I think in that thematic sort of way,

1125
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 6: I think Vertigo has these depths that people are still exploring.

1126
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 6: And it's been what seventy years, So Vertico.

1127
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:11,440
Speaker 3: Well, we will see what their respondents have to say.

1128
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 3: You can both go over there and register your vote

1129
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 3: immediately if you care to try to sway that decision.

1130
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 3: Otherwise you can leave it up to the film spotting family.

1131
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 3: As for feedback, here is a long one from a

1132
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 3: listener who's curious about the Roadhouse remake and what the

1133
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 3: hell is up with remakes in general. Katie, could you

1134
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:30,560
Speaker 3: read this one for us?

1135
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 6: Okay, Matt right, I'm a big fan of the original Roadhouse,

1136
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:37,240
Speaker 6: thanks in no small part to the new cult cannon

1137
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 6: piece way back when by mister Tobias glad that feature

1138
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 6: is back on the reveal. Now this is just a guest,

1139
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 6: but I doubt Roadhouse has had much cachet with average

1140
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,320
Speaker 6: people when you're thirty five years old at this point.

1141
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 6: So for younger moviegoers, the title alone won't put many

1142
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 6: butts in seats or fingers on the click button as

1143
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 6: opposed to something like Ghostbusters or a New Ages movie.

1144
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 6: For people who do know you. Janelva thought of remaking

1145
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:03,319
Speaker 6: it as ludicrous, and I don't know anyone who wants

1146
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 6: to watch it, So I assume that when most people

1147
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 6: hear they remade Roadhouse, the reaction is either what's Roadhouse?

1148
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 6: Or know why? There's a lot of question marks and

1149
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 6: excavation picts there. However, if I heard there's a new

1150
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 6: movie with Jake, Jill and Holland he's a bouncer at

1151
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 6: a sleazy club and it kicks a lot of ass,

1152
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:25,360
Speaker 6: it's kind of like Roadhouse, I'd say sounds cool, sounds

1153
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 6: like a pitch from the player. Why remake Roadhouse? Does

1154
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 6: calling it Roadhouse help or hinder or have any measurable

1155
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 6: effect on audience perception. I haven't seen the new version,

1156
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 6: so it might be great, but it seems like most

1157
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 6: non franchise remakes, like the New Point Breaks, the New

1158
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 6: Total Recall, the New Fright Night, are not generally well received.

1159
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 6: As someone says, have you seen Point Break? Nobody thinks

1160
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:50,919
Speaker 6: of the twenty fifteen versions, So why I keep making them?

1161
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 6: So they just spin a wheel of existing titles to remake.

1162
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 6: I know that Hollywood has always done remakes, but I

1163
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 6: can understand being the filmmaker in the seventies or eighties

1164
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 6: and looking back to the fifties, for example, the Thing remake,

1165
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 6: the Body Snatcher's remake, and knowing that, with fewer restrictions

1166
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 6: and new technologies, could really do something bold and distinct.

1167
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 6: But it doesn't seem that way as much anymore. The

1168
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 6: Lord of the Rings woos They're twenty years old and

1169
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 6: can't be improved upon. So my question is remakes, why

1170
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 6: you are clearly not right?

1171
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:23,439
Speaker 9: I don't know. I mean, you know, I think there's

1172
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 9: kind of that.

1173
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 8: Obviously, there's some mathematics, studio mathematics that makes sense because

1174
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 8: it keeps happening, And I think there's a baseline recognition

1175
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 8: that you can start with with a film or maybe

1176
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 8: have Maybe people will want to go back and say, oh,

1177
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 8: what is Roadhouse. Maybe I should see that. I mean,

1178
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 8: you know, and I think some of these films have

1179
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 8: stuck around the culture. I mean, there's a reason why

1180
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 8: I wrote I wrote about Roadhouse to being with for

1181
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 8: the new cult canon, because it does have a cult following.

1182
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 8: I think getting into the specifics not just of why remakes,

1183
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 8: but specifically Roadhouse, I would say that in a very

1184
00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 8: rhetorical way because the original Roadhouse it's like Casablanca in

1185
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 8: a way, because it's like it has all these elements

1186
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 8: that seem that are almost like magical and irreplicable, like

1187
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 8: certain things came together in the writing and the casting

1188
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 8: and the director that if you take some one piece out,

1189
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 8: it just doesn't have the same kind of odd residence

1190
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 8: to it. And so it's kind of has that, you know.

1191
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 8: I think the original Roadhouse is kind of a magical

1192
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 8: film that does not lend itself to a remake at all.

1193
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 8: And I was surprised to the degree that the current

1194
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 8: Roadhouse is at least kind of watchable as a as

1195
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 8: an action movie, but it does not, you know, have

1196
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:40,080
Speaker 8: the same feeling as the original, because it can't. The

1197
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 8: original is just this magical occurrence. Have you all seen

1198
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:45,240
Speaker 8: the New Roadhouse.

1199
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 7: I have not.

1200
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:48,560
Speaker 6: I have not, but it does lead me into a thought,

1201
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 6: which is that I think he's answering his own questions

1202
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 6: in this letter where he talks about existing upon improving

1203
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 6: filmmaking techniques in like seventies and eighties remix. I think

1204
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 6: that maybe he does think that, you know, current camera

1205
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 6: technologies and VFX and CGI are improvements. But I think

1206
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:08,680
Speaker 6: there are a lot of people in Hollywood that do.

1207
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 6: I think when you look at like kids who are

1208
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 6: in film school now, they're all really into like, you know,

1209
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 6: CGI compositing and things like that. And I've heard The

1210
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 6: New Roadhouse has some CGI fights in it, and so

1211
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 6: I think that, you know, maybe he doesn't agree with it,

1212
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:25,880
Speaker 6: but they're using the same logic as in the seventies eighties,

1213
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 6: which is that, oh, well, we have better effects now,

1214
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 6: so we can do this more realistic.

1215
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1216
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 3: I think there's also maybe a feeling of, you know,

1217
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 3: we have modern storytelling beats and we have modern pacing.

1218
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 3: What if we remade this seventies movie, but much faster

1219
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:44,080
Speaker 3: and without all of the boring parts where the people

1220
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 3: sit around and talk to each other. What if we

1221
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 3: remade this eighties action movie, but with way more explosions

1222
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 3: because back in the eighties they had to actually blow

1223
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 3: up a house, but now we can, you know, just

1224
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 3: do it digitally. Like I think there's a lot of

1225
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 3: feeling that any movie more than ten years old was

1226
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 3: made with olden time techniques, and we can improve on that.

1227
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 3: But I have a much worse answer, which I actually

1228
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 3: do think is true and is depressing. And that's the

1229
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 3: incumbent effect. You know, poll after poll after poll shows

1230
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 3: that nobody likes Ted Cruz, but they keep re electing

1231
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 3: him anyway, And there's just the incumbent effect where the

1232
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:27,440
Speaker 3: person who's already in office and has name recognition gets

1233
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 3: votes from the people who just aren't decisive, like don't

1234
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 3: go in with a decision in mind. And I think that,

1235
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 3: you know, sort of troublesome question at the moment. That's like,

1236
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 3: there are eight thousand new movies out there hitting every

1237
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:48,200
Speaker 3: single possible platform. What do I watch today? The answer

1238
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 3: can be the incumbent, the thing that I recognize in

1239
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 3: some way, the thing that I have heard of before

1240
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 3: in some way, and therefore I'm mildly curious about. And

1241
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:01,440
Speaker 3: I think the studio logic for many many decades now

1242
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:06,439
Speaker 3: has been the ip that has some familiarity is more

1243
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 3: valuable because that's less marketing that we need to do.

1244
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 3: But as our collective cultural memory gets shorter and shorter

1245
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 3: and you get more and more young people in particular

1246
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 3: that think any movie that's more than about ten years

1247
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 3: old is an old and timey movie, just the aspect

1248
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 3: of I guess I've heard of that before might be

1249
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 3: enough to like flip that little mental trigger that makes

1250
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 3: you choose one thing over another. And I think that's

1251
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:37,440
Speaker 3: part of the thinking behind it as well, is just

1252
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter if you have good feelings about Roadhouse,

1253
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 3: or if you're actively curious about Roadhouse, or if you

1254
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 3: truly wonder whether Jake Jillen Hall like could possibly live

1255
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:50,680
Speaker 3: up to Patrick Swayze. That vague itch of I think

1256
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:52,960
Speaker 3: I know that thing or I think I remember that

1257
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:56,800
Speaker 3: thing from somewhere is apparently enough of a boon to

1258
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 3: the studio studio minds and to marketers that it's one

1259
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 3: of the big reasons behind remakes.

1260
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 5: Sorry to be super.

1261
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 3: Cynical in this pairing about a couple of super cynical

1262
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 3: movies about movie making, but that's what I feel like

1263
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 3: tell me, I'm wrong. Tell me the world's a better

1264
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 3: place and people are smarter.

1265
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,120
Speaker 9: No, it's not, it's worse. It's very bad.

1266
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:22,480
Speaker 3: I will say, if you're listening to this podcast, if

1267
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:26,959
Speaker 3: you're watching these two movies, if you're thinking about these things,

1268
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 3: you are probably already a lot more embedded in, like

1269
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 3: actively engaging, thoughtfully engaging with pop culture than most of

1270
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,440
Speaker 3: the people out there. And I think a lot of

1271
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 3: us in the industry that we're in and just the

1272
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:43,280
Speaker 3: circles that we move in of people that think a

1273
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 3: lot about pop culture spend a lot of time trying

1274
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 3: to understand aspects of pop culture that really just come

1275
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 3: from most people don't think much about any of this

1276
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 3: at all, And it just kind of comes down to, like,

1277
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 3: why why are all of these trailers giving away the

1278
01:03:58,040 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 3: ending of the movie?

1279
01:03:59,120 --> 01:03:59,280
Speaker 6: Eh?

1280
01:03:59,520 --> 01:03:59,720
Speaker 11: Yeah?

1281
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:01,920
Speaker 3: People in the want to know what they're getting, and

1282
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:04,880
Speaker 3: if they're watching The New Roadhouse, they pretty much know

1283
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 3: what they're getting. And that's a boon to a lot

1284
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 3: of people that people who think about film a lot

1285
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:11,960
Speaker 3: have a hard time understanding.

1286
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:15,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, Tasha, So this was a big thing in the eighties.

1287
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:18,240
Speaker 6: I read a book called High Concept. It was a

1288
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:20,720
Speaker 6: film theory book from the eighties, and it was talking

1289
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,560
Speaker 6: about I realized I've been using the phrase high concepts

1290
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:28,240
Speaker 6: slightly incorrectly my entire life, because the way that this

1291
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:31,720
Speaker 6: author defined it was as a high concept film is

1292
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:34,960
Speaker 6: one that is designed with marketing in mind first, like,

1293
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 6: for example, the film you can describe in one sentence,

1294
01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 6: it's a film where you can sell it based on

1295
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 6: the poster. And that sort of role of the marketer

1296
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 6: really came to ascendence in the eighties and the era

1297
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 6: that leads up to the player, and I think it's

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01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:54,520
Speaker 6: still is very influential today. You know, like Roadhouse remake.

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01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:58,200
Speaker 6: There you go three words not boom concepts. You know

1300
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 6: you put take Dylan Hall in the poster, its arms

1301
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:04,440
Speaker 6: boom done. Like I think that, yeah, it ties them

1302
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:06,760
Speaker 6: to what Tasha was saying. But you know, the influence

1303
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:10,160
Speaker 6: of marketing and the important place on the ease of

1304
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:12,880
Speaker 6: marketing a film might contribute to this as well.

1305
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 9: Well.

1306
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:16,880
Speaker 3: This is all tremendously depressing. We always appreciate when our

1307
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 3: listeners share their thoughts and their recommendations, and when they

1308
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:25,040
Speaker 3: give us an opportunity to fully exercise our cinematic cynicism.

1309
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:27,560
Speaker 3: If you feel so inclined, we can feature your response

1310
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:29,959
Speaker 3: on a future episode. To reach us, leave a short

1311
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:33,240
Speaker 3: voicemail at seven seven three two three four nine seven

1312
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 3: three zero or email us at comments at next Pictureshow

1313
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:44,280
Speaker 3: dot net. That's it for this episode of The Next

1314
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:46,919
Speaker 3: Picture Show. In our next episode, we'll bring in Radu

1315
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 3: Jude's Do Not Expect Too Much from the End of

1316
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 3: the World, about a woman whose connection to movie making

1317
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 3: is a lot less glamorous than Griffin Mills and a

1318
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:57,240
Speaker 3: lot less likely to involve murder, she still has plenty

1319
01:05:57,280 --> 01:06:00,440
Speaker 3: of aggression to channel in an equally disparating environment. Look

1320
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 3: for that episode next Tuesday on your podcast of choice.

1321
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:06,440
Speaker 3: For add free versions of the podcast and extra content,

1322
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:09,240
Speaker 3: find us on Patreon at Patreon dot com, slash Next

1323
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 3: Picture Show, find us at Next Picture Show dot net,

1324
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:14,640
Speaker 3: and at blue Sky at the Next Picture Show if

1325
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:16,560
Speaker 3: you want to keep track of when new episodes drop

1326
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:19,440
Speaker 3: until next week. If you've got something nasty to say

1327
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:21,560
Speaker 3: about Malcolm McDowell, say it to his face.

1328
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 5: Will you