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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stump Mom? Never told

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Speaker 1: you from House top works dot Com. Hey there, and

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Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen, I'm Molly Molly. I

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Speaker 1: think that I can speak for both of us when

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Speaker 1: I say that we love the show thirty Rocks. It's

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Speaker 1: written and started by our one of our phase Tina

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Speaker 1: Fey Alec Baldwin. And there's a recent episode that starred

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Speaker 1: another favorite of ours, Mr James Franco, True Lately of

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Speaker 1: General Hospital fame. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. But

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Speaker 1: James Franco plays himself in this episode of thirty Rock

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Speaker 1: and he has a secret relationship with a body pillow

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Speaker 1: that depicts a Japanese manga or anime character named Kimikaton. Yes,

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Speaker 1: he is in love with a two D character, right,

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Speaker 1: so he needs to hide this relationship with this body

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Speaker 1: pillow with a fake relationship with a real woman too,

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Speaker 1: full of paparazzi who are following him around, and hilarity

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Speaker 1: ensues as it normally does on thirty Rock. And uh

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Speaker 1: that I think was the mainstream introduction of something called moa. Yes,

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Speaker 1: moa is a term for not necessarily someone who falls

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Speaker 1: in love with a body pillow, but it's more this

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Speaker 1: idea of forming some kind of attachment or relationship with

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Speaker 1: an anime character. And usually these anime characters are busty

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Speaker 1: it somehow prepubescent do ide girls very innocent, very naive,

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Speaker 1: not to not to world savvy. That kind of excludes

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Speaker 1: a woman from being a moe um objective desire. And

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Speaker 1: this is also a subset of something called otaca culture,

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Speaker 1: which is the obset some fandom that uh you know

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Speaker 1: comes up with anime and manga and video games, especially

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Speaker 1: in Japan over the last decade. Right, so you see

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Speaker 1: articles every now and then, in fact, um, last week

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Speaker 1: of the week we're recording this, so it'll be a

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Speaker 1: few weeks passed by the time you hear this, a

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Speaker 1: man married his body pillow. And every now and then

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Speaker 1: you see these sort of strange stories that will come

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Speaker 1: out of Japan, like a a fellow marries a video

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Speaker 1: game character and there are pictures of him standing around

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Speaker 1: with his game boy and the woman holding I mean,

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Speaker 1: the woman's on the game boy and he's kind of

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Speaker 1: holding the game boy and smiling at her, and you know,

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Speaker 1: they drive around and he pulls out the device and

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Speaker 1: takes a picture, and then they get back on the

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Speaker 1: car and he introduces it to his parents. How do

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Speaker 1: you think that went, Kristen, Uh, you know, I really

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Speaker 1: can't predict it. I don't know his parents. I think

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Speaker 1: if I were his parents, you know, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what I would do. I don't know how I were

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Speaker 1: to react to my son marrying a video game device,

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Speaker 1: but I hope that I would be as loving and

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Speaker 1: accepting as as possible. Well, that's good, and now we're

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Speaker 1: going to examine whether the whole country, the country is,

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Speaker 1: the whole of Japan is being very accepting of this

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Speaker 1: new sort of romance that's blooming amidst other men. Because

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Speaker 1: you know what, Kristen, there's so much love between video

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Speaker 1: game characters and body pillows that condom cells are dropping,

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Speaker 1: condom sales are dropping. And it's not just because men

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Speaker 1: are choosing to take home body pillows instead of women.

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Speaker 1: This is actually part of sort of a larger cultural

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Speaker 1: trend that I think has been going on really since

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Speaker 1: the late nineties and early two thousand's. Uh. And for instance,

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Speaker 1: this is a USA Today article from two thousand four,

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Speaker 1: so it's a little bit dated, but just to give

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Speaker 1: you an idea of when this condom issue started, they said.

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Speaker 1: In a two thousand one survey, condom maker Dirks found

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Speaker 1: that Japan ranked dead last among twenty eight countries in

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Speaker 1: the frequency of sex, and the condom shipments were down

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Speaker 1: since ninete. Now that might have to do with Japan

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Speaker 1: legalizing birth control pills in but I'm still they're pretty low. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So let's let's examine some of the reasons why the

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Speaker 1: sales might be down, and let's return to this idea

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Speaker 1: of two D love, as writer Lisa Katayama terms it

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Speaker 1: in a New York Times article. And it's a great

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Speaker 1: New York Times articles called love and two D and

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Speaker 1: it it really just goes through some of the kinds

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Speaker 1: of people that this culture attracts. The profile begins by

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Speaker 1: following a man named Nissan who has fallen in love.

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Speaker 1: He says with a character named Namuton, maybe I'm saying

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Speaker 1: all this correctly, um. And it's basically an X rayed

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Speaker 1: version of a PC video game called Decapo. And he

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Speaker 1: first encountered his lady, Nemu, as he likes to call her,

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Speaker 1: is the nickname for her at a comic convention and

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Speaker 1: he saw her. It was love at first sight. You know.

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Speaker 1: Now he takes uh this body pillow depicting Nemu out

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Speaker 1: with him to to dinner and outings and for for walks,

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Speaker 1: and of course you know probably they probably cuddle a

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Speaker 1: lot because a soft body pillow, Well, he keeps an

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Speaker 1: extra one. I was happy to hear at his at

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Speaker 1: his office so that if he has to work late

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Speaker 1: and just sleep at the office, he can pull out

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Speaker 1: work Nemu and cuttle up with her. And I should

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Speaker 1: probably mention this guy's thirty seven, and Nissan is not

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Speaker 1: his real name. In the in the video game, the

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Speaker 1: girl calls her big brother Nissan, and so that's he

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Speaker 1: sort of adopted the name because it was part of

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Speaker 1: the Nemu world. I guess. Now, before Nissan started dating

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Speaker 1: this video game character, he was dating a lady I

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Speaker 1: R L if you will in real life, yes, Um,

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Speaker 1: who ended up breaking up with him and broke his heart,

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Speaker 1: and he was just devastated from the relationship and he

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Speaker 1: really wasn't that interested in having to go through all

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Speaker 1: of that heartache again, especially once he met Nemu, who

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Speaker 1: isn't going to judge him. You know, she's going to

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Speaker 1: be there with him any time that he needs her,

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Speaker 1: So why not just carry this body pull around because

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Speaker 1: he says that he's finding just as much fulfillment with

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Speaker 1: her and um. The article points out that people who

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Speaker 1: have studied this MOE phenomenon attribute the rise of two

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Speaker 1: D love in Japan to young men's difficulty in navigating

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Speaker 1: modern romantic life, because, as we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: more in this podcast, the relationships between men and women

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Speaker 1: in Japan have changed drastically in the past decade. So

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Speaker 1: the article makes the point that there are men like

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Speaker 1: Nissan who totally opt out of any sort of real

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Speaker 1: life love because they want to just pursue two D love,

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Speaker 1: and because relationship between men and women are changing so much,

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Speaker 1: there's not as much dating among young people. Uh. In

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Speaker 1: the New York Times, they estimate that more than a

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Speaker 1: quarter of unmarried men and women between the ages of

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Speaker 1: thirty and thirty four virgins and fifty of men and

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Speaker 1: women in Japan say they are not going out with anybody,

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Speaker 1: so very little dating. And interestingly, The New York Times

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Speaker 1: also points out that one of the biggest bestsellers in

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Speaker 1: Japan was a book called Health and Physical Education for

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Speaker 1: for Over thirty, which was this guide book for older

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Speaker 1: people who um and was all illustrated with with the

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Speaker 1: anime characters. It was a guide to how to date

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Speaker 1: and uh, seduce a lady and get married when you're

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Speaker 1: over thirty and only can relate to your video game characters. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because there has been an overall decline in the marriage

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Speaker 1: rate in Japan, a lot of women especially are choosing

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Speaker 1: to delay marriage and this has kind of had a

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Speaker 1: ripple effect of men sort of retreating back from their

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Speaker 1: dating lives as well. And going back to the USA

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Speaker 1: Today article, it points out that weddings dropped in two

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Speaker 1: thousand three for the second straight year, and at fifty

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Speaker 1: percent of Japanese women and they're late twenties are single,

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Speaker 1: up from only thirty point six percent in nine and

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Speaker 1: that has also had the result of a drastic drop

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Speaker 1: in the birth rate in Japan. And I saw, you know,

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Speaker 1: collection of columns questioning whether or not Japan is you know,

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Speaker 1: on the verge of basically destroying itself because the population,

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Speaker 1: the existing population is aging so rapidly, but there aren't

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Speaker 1: enough young people that are enough babies being born essentially

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Speaker 1: to take their place, and since they also have pretty

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Speaker 1: high life expectancies, you have these older, unmarried people who

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Speaker 1: are choosing to stay at home and they're going to

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Speaker 1: be caring for their aging parents. They're not getting married,

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Speaker 1: and what's gonna happen when you need a new generation

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Speaker 1: of employees. They're not there right to supply pensions, for

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Speaker 1: one thing. So Chris and I just want to go

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Speaker 1: over a few more details from this New York Times

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Speaker 1: artic before we go onto some of the other issues

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Speaker 1: that are happening in Japan. Um I was kind of

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Speaker 1: struck by another guy who has profiled in the article

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Speaker 1: who has many, many pillows, and one of his favorites

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Speaker 1: is one uh that is a naked girl, flush cheeks,

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Speaker 1: prepubescent nipples hidden by her forearms, and her underwears down

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Speaker 1: around her ankles, but where her vagina would be there's

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Speaker 1: like a translucent, pixelated square. M So, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: just I don't think the Week should make any sort

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Speaker 1: of connection that it's like a sex doll, is what

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to get at with that description. And people

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Speaker 1: have worried because these girls are so prepubescent is it troubling,

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Speaker 1: I mean, will it be you know, people acting on

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Speaker 1: real life impulses and you know, picking up very young

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Speaker 1: girls and having real relationship ships with them, and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be that. It just really seems to

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Speaker 1: be that it's much easier to get along with someone

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Speaker 1: who can't talk back. Well, that's not entirely surprising that

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Speaker 1: you think that these guys might not be doing anything

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Speaker 1: physically to these pillows, because there have also been reports

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Speaker 1: from Japanese women who are trying to date these guys,

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Speaker 1: especially you know, a little bit older who they might

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Speaker 1: go on an out of town trip or they stay

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Speaker 1: over the house and they just fall asleep. Like the

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Speaker 1: guys don't make any moves. Separate rooms, separate rooms. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're not. They're not having sex once again, low lowest

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Speaker 1: condom sales, you know, among these twenty eight countries, it

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Speaker 1: seems like not only are some of these men retreating

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Speaker 1: from real relationships, but they're retreating from just sex in general.

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Speaker 1: And this USA Today article also points out that as

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Speaker 1: many as a million young men this is mostly teenagers,

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Speaker 1: but it says that they suffer from something known as

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Speaker 1: hikiko morrow, which is a condition in which they seclude

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Speaker 1: themselves up in their room for weeks at a time.

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Speaker 1: They kind of sequest with themselves away. But then once

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Speaker 1: we get to the older subsets, I think it might

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Speaker 1: be a good time to bring up something a little

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Speaker 1: newer that sociologists Japanese sociologists are turning terming herbivores, herbivores

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Speaker 1: and carnivores. I which would you rather be, Kristen? Do

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Speaker 1: you think that's just refers to what they eat for dinner?

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Speaker 1: Are they just vegetarians and meat eaters? No? No, indeed no.

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Speaker 1: This more has to do with the type of lifestyle

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Speaker 1: that Japanese men are choosing, and and these sociologists are

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Speaker 1: saying that around six of today's men between twenty and

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Speaker 1: thirty four in Japan are herbivores, meaning they and this

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Speaker 1: is according to an article in the Japan Times, saying

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Speaker 1: that they are not as competitively minded about their jobs

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Speaker 1: as men in older generations. They're more fashion conscious and

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Speaker 1: body conscious. They're very chummy with their mothers and like

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Speaker 1: to go shopping very often, and they're not interested in

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Speaker 1: dating girls, having relationships, or even having sex. So Krystin,

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Speaker 1: let's talk for um and about some reasons why they

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Speaker 1: think there's a rise in these literally translated grass eating boys.

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Speaker 1: So so shoot go don shi a k herbi horse um.

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Speaker 1: One thing that kind of stuck out to me was

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Speaker 1: a sentence in an article that said, um, men of

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Speaker 1: a certain generation in Japan today have never known what

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Speaker 1: it was like to live in a good economy, and

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Speaker 1: so that's it's much harder for them to strike out

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Speaker 1: on their own, get their own place, afford to take

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Speaker 1: a woman out. And apparently these Japanese women expect a

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Speaker 1: lot because they also for the first time, have some

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Speaker 1: disposal income of their own right. Because while we have

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Speaker 1: this wave of men who are kind of pulling back

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Speaker 1: from society in a way, we also have on the

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Speaker 1: flip side of that, women who are really making their

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Speaker 1: first big eyes in Japanese society. Because it wasn't until

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Speaker 1: the late eighties that the Japanese government instituted equal employment laws,

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Speaker 1: and so women finally were able to start getting a

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Speaker 1: leg up in the office. But in the early n

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Speaker 1: the Japanese economy has a lot of problems. So right

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Speaker 1: now there's just a lot of people who the women

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Speaker 1: have money for the first time, the men aren't being

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Speaker 1: able to find success the way their fathers did. And

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Speaker 1: it's really affecting gender roles. Um that Japan used to

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Speaker 1: have these very traditional gender roles, and one article points

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Speaker 1: out that the way some Japanese men would propose would

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Speaker 1: be I want you to make me me so suit

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Speaker 1: for the rest of my life. And these women are like, what, no, thanks. Yes,

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Speaker 1: Traditionally women stay at home, took care of the house,

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Speaker 1: raised children, and now they want to go out in

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Speaker 1: the workforce and by handbags. Sound familiar, Why, yes, it does, Molly.

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Speaker 1: It sounds a lot like something we've talked about here

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Speaker 1: stuff many a time called second wave feminism. And this

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Speaker 1: was over in the United States when we had women

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Speaker 1: in the sixties and seventies really starting to enter into

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Speaker 1: the workforce. We have our own equal equal employment laws

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Speaker 1: on the books. Women are gaining a leg up getting

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Speaker 1: out of the house. Gender roles are starting to shift

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Speaker 1: a little bit. And the thing that I questioned about, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're when we see these trends with these

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Speaker 1: Japanese men who are supposedly you know, I've seen it

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Speaker 1: in some newspaper columns calling them girly men. You know,

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Speaker 1: they're so soft and then you have these Japanese women

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Speaker 1: who are you know, in the in the workforce and

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Speaker 1: have all these high standards for men that they really

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Speaker 1: can't attain right now. It made me wonder what would

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Speaker 1: happen if we wouldn't see a similar kind of cultural

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Speaker 1: shift in the United States of second wave feminism we're

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Speaker 1: happening now or in the past decade. Then if it

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Speaker 1: had been going on in the sixties and seventies, especially

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Speaker 1: because I mean, if you think of Japan, it's so

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Speaker 1: technologically advanced, like think about all of the all of

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Speaker 1: those changes that are going on, coupled with this very

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Speaker 1: intense social change going on as well. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't think it's that surprising that we have all of

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Speaker 1: these kind of odd trends, right, I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: if the Internet had been around one second way of

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Speaker 1: feminism was going on, then men probably would have discovered

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Speaker 1: body pillows here too. I mean, if your main form

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Speaker 1: of entertainment is all this anime comic book stuff, then

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Speaker 1: you know, and that's there are these basically prepubescent, butting

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Speaker 1: innocent women being held up as part of your your

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Speaker 1: main form of you know, entertainment and consumption. Then that

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Speaker 1: contrasts so vividly with what they're experiencing in the real

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Speaker 1: three D world. I think there's, you know, an understandable

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Speaker 1: reason why they would retreat and want the simpler times.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's not necessarily good for the women because

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Speaker 1: they're going to be single and they got no one

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Speaker 1: to spend money on condoms for. But you know, it's

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Speaker 1: I don't want to, you know, condone it, but it's understandable.

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Speaker 1: I think that's understandable. And it's not you know, we

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Speaker 1: say it's not really good for the women because you're

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Speaker 1: now seeing trend stories about these single Japanese women who

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Speaker 1: are desperate to find some kind of husbands, some men

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Speaker 1: who wants to take them out on the date. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time, it can't be necessarily healthy in

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Speaker 1: the long run for Japanese men as well, not to

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Speaker 1: say that you go over to Japan, you're going to

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Speaker 1: see just hordes of men carrying around body pillows. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is you know, pretty kind of media happy trend,

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Speaker 1: I think, because it's it's kind of strange in our

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Speaker 1: in our western eyes to talk about. But if the

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Speaker 1: best selling book is an anime guide to marriage, that's

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Speaker 1: true that's not great. That is true, But I think that, um,

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Speaker 1: when we're starting out all of this stuff about herbivores

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Speaker 1: versus carnivores m because a lot of the news coverage

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Speaker 1: depicts these men as quote unquote feminine, you know, like

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Speaker 1: there have been trend pieces about oh, these these men

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Speaker 1: are now buying bras, which actually, if you look the

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Speaker 1: actual trend, it's like a couple of thousand bras have

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Speaker 1: been sold to these men. But if you google Japanese

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Speaker 1: men bras, you'll see a low stories because they I'll

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Speaker 1: use the same photo and the I'll be like, oh

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Speaker 1: my goodness, o MG, to use an internet term, these

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Speaker 1: men are wearing bras. And there was also a survey

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Speaker 1: from Total International, the toilet manufacturer, that claimed that a

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Speaker 1: third of Japanese men urinate sitting down. Oh my goodness,

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Speaker 1: you know, the ultimate sign of masculinity destroyed. Right, But

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Speaker 1: then that gets into another, you know, a whole another

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Speaker 1: conversation about like, well, what does masculiney mean today anyway?

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Speaker 1: And should we be calling these you know, and what

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Speaker 1: does femininity mean in a day of supposedly you know,

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Speaker 1: equal employment, equal opportunity. Is that really a valid judgment

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Speaker 1: to make. And coming back to that point about the economy, Molly,

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Speaker 1: that you made a little while ago, I think that

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Speaker 1: Slate did a really good job of explaining this herbivore

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Speaker 1: versus carnivore thing that's going on in terms of this, uh,

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Speaker 1: this down shift in the economy that has now had

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Speaker 1: a ripple effect into men's lifestyle choices, because it talks

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Speaker 1: about how, in the eyes of these guys who might

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Speaker 1: be termed herbivores, they're not just trying to become you know,

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Speaker 1: extreme metro sexuals or whatever you want to call it.

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Speaker 1: It's more they perceive it as more not wanting to

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Speaker 1: live up to traditional social expectations in their relationships with women,

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Speaker 1: their jobs, or anything else. They don't feel like they

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Speaker 1: have to ascribe to this traditional idea of masculinity and

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Speaker 1: now have a little bit more room to I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I guess express themselves more and I don't think there's

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Speaker 1: anything necessarily wrong with that, And I do think there's

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Speaker 1: something to be said for I don't know the confidence

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Speaker 1: that it would take, at least for I think most

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Speaker 1: people here that you know are thinking about this, to

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Speaker 1: go out in public with a body pillow. You know,

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Speaker 1: to some extent, I wonder if it's better to be

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Speaker 1: out in public with something weird relationship wise and doing

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Speaker 1: it behind closed doors, which kind of makes it even

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Speaker 1: more kind of outside the norm and perhaps a dangerous perversion.

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Speaker 1: But then yeah, I mean, I think you also to

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Speaker 1: have to um in terms of relationships. You do have

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Speaker 1: to question whether or not, you know, they're re creating

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Speaker 1: such an attachment to things on the internet and things

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Speaker 1: in anime or manga culture that aren't real. You know,

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Speaker 1: if we're kind of the whole idea of concept of

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Speaker 1: romance and love is really becoming blurred, and whether or

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Speaker 1: not that's going to have positive repercussions or not. Food

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Speaker 1: for thought because at some point, you know, if you

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Speaker 1: want to keep up a species, you do have to

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Speaker 1: reproduce in some way. But I do you think no

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Speaker 1: matter what, Yeah, I think it does provides some interesting

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Speaker 1: food for thought for questioning what exactly are our gender

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Speaker 1: ideals today, how technology in packs that, and maybe how

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Speaker 1: technology is going to possibly impact our population as a whole.

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Speaker 1: Very interesting questions, Kristen, So a few things to say

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Speaker 1: about any of those conversation topics that Kristen very helpfully

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Speaker 1: laid out in bullet point format email us at mom

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Speaker 1: stuff at how stuff works dot com. Because the conversation

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Speaker 1: is endless here. We haven't solved in this country what

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Speaker 1: will Japan do with their gender problems? And speaking of emails,

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Speaker 1: mo only, why don't we read a couple? Okay, so

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Speaker 1: we're gonna start with one from Kel who writes, I'm

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Speaker 1: the artist and writer of a web comic called Sorcery

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Speaker 1: one oh one, which is located at www dot Sorcery

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Speaker 1: one oh one dot net. I recently found your podcast

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Speaker 1: while looking for podcasts to listen to you while I draw.

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Speaker 1: One point you mentioned in your episode chick Lit caught

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Speaker 1: my attention. During the discussion, you mentioned graphic novels being

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Speaker 1: used to get boys to read more and letting them

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Speaker 1: know that comics counts is reading. I want to point

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Speaker 1: out that this tactics should also be used for girls.

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Speaker 1: With the rise of manga and web comics, more and

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Speaker 1: more girls are reading comics. Manga because Japan has a

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Speaker 1: vast collection of titles specifically targeting girls, then web comics

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Speaker 1: because since it's fairly easy to start a web comics,

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Speaker 1: you're getting more variety than traditional mainstream comics. So you're

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Speaker 1: seeing more comics starting up by female creators, either consciously

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Speaker 1: or unconsciously target the more. A good example will be

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Speaker 1: Girls with Slingshots dot com and of course my own comic.

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Speaker 1: Then you have publishers branching out to each its demographic

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Speaker 1: they've been kind of ignoring for a long time, so

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Speaker 1: you get some titles like Persepolis and Spider Man Loves

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Speaker 1: Mary Jane. So kind of relevant email to read here

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Speaker 1: at the end of this one, But I wanted to

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Speaker 1: give a big thumbs up to Sorcery one on one

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Speaker 1: and are very talented listener kill All right, Well, I've

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Speaker 1: got one here from Sonny and this is in response

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Speaker 1: to our recent podcast about racial discrimination in ballet and dance.

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Speaker 1: And she says, after listening to your podcast, I was

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Speaker 1: surprised that you didn't mention Maria toll Chief. Not only

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Speaker 1: is she one of the most famous American dancer is

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Speaker 1: she's also part of the Osaga Nation. When she started

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Speaker 1: her career in the early nineteen forties, the ballet world

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Speaker 1: was almost unexceptionally white. She's a true pioneer with a

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Speaker 1: career spanning decades. First with the influential Ballet Roost de

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Speaker 1: Monte Carlo, then as the New York City Ballet's first

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Speaker 1: prima Ballerina and later as founder of the Chicago City Ballet.

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Speaker 1: Her collaboration with George Balanchine, who was her husband for

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Speaker 1: a time, made her name synonymous with some of the

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Speaker 1: most well known of Balanchin's choreography, from The Firebird, Swan

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Speaker 1: Lake and The Nutcracker. As a ballet dancer in a

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Speaker 1: groundbreaking role model, Maria taul Chief should be at the

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Speaker 1: top of the list. So thanks for letting us know.

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Speaker 1: Sunny very cool, all right. If you've got something to say,

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Speaker 1: our email addresses Mom stuff at hose stuff works dot com.

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Speaker 1: During the week, Chris and I are blogging our little

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Speaker 1: heads off at a blog called how to stuff and

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Speaker 1: if you'd like to learn more about how to do things,

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Speaker 1: Japanese culture, everything under the sun, then head on over

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Speaker 1: to how stuff works dot com. For more on this

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Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff works dot com.

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Speaker 1: Want more how stuff works, check out our blogs on

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Speaker 1: the house stuff works dot com home page. Brought to

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Speaker 1: you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready,

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Speaker 1: are you