1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Behind the Bastards, the podcast that just got 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: introduced properly because I fucked up. Fuck. I wasn't supposed 3 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: to do it right, I was supposed to do it badly. Um. 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry Sean. Sean is here today because Sean 5 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: donated a very generous amount to the recall effort for 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: the mayor of Portland, who sucks uh And and I 7 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: wanted to introduce the podcast well for Sean by doing 8 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: something incompetent shouting the name of a dictator. You know, 9 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: I was I all day, all day. I was gonna 10 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: I was gonna shout chow Chessco. Just just scream out 11 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: chow Chessco's name, but I forgot to at the last minute. 12 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: And I'm so sorry, Sean. That's okay, I mean it's 13 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: it's you know, it's no Punani. But you know, well, 14 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: we can talk about Poonani. We can talk about but 15 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 1: but we do have we do have a different bastard today. 16 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: Although all bastards lead one way or the other to 17 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: Steven Seagal, I do believe that strung and I'm fairly 18 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: certain you could connect today's bet Well, let me let 19 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: me double check here, let me do check here, because 20 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about Josh Dougger today, and in a broader sense, 21 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: we're talking about aspects of the Quiverful movement. And I 22 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: kind of wonder, can we here with the production company 23 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: or something related to a movie made by Steven Seagal. 24 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: That's that's there. I think I know how I can 25 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: make this connection. Um, okay, yes, we can make this connection. 26 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 1: So Mike Huckabee went on the View in two thousand 27 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: and seventeen and denied that Joe R. Pio was a 28 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: racist and says that he knows Joe R. Pio their friends, 29 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: and he knows that Joe R. Piot was not a racist. 30 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: Joe R. Pio has shown up at campaign events and 31 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: campaigned with both Jim Bob and Josh Dugger. Joe R. 32 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: Pio was connected directly to Stephen Seagal. We did it, 33 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: We did it, hey, perfect, We should put it out there, 34 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: put out to the universe. Steven Seagal, the bastards, Kevin Bacon. 35 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, we could. I mean, I bet if 36 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: we were to spend the time, we could draw a 37 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: connection between him and Hitler. Um, but I would probably 38 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: need to do a little bit more digging than I'm 39 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: going to do right now while we're recording an episode, 40 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: but for a depressingly less amount of there's just a 41 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: photo of him in an s S uniform. No, he 42 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: has an age nearly that. Well, Sean, you want to 43 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: tell the audience a little bit about yourself before we 44 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: before we get into this episode. As I was telling 45 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: you before we started up, I worked on the healthcare 46 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: front lines during the during the pandemic and kind of 47 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: sat on my hands while watching and paying attention to 48 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: Twitter and all that stuff of all the protests and 49 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: the tear gassing and all that stuff going on in 50 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: real time, being kind of like, oh, I'm at this, 51 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 1: I'm at this front uh of all the crazy stuff 52 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: going on. I don't want to bring COVID from one 53 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: to the other. Uh. So I was like, when this 54 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: auction came up, I was like, Oh, I am willing 55 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: to spend a real amount of money to to did 56 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: Wheeler fuck Ted Wheeler? Yeah, I'm I'm I'm glad that 57 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: you did. And for those of you listening who live 58 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: in the city of Portland, if you go to Total 59 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: Recall PDX dot com, you can print off the sheet 60 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: that you can then sign and and and scan back in. 61 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: You can also print off sheets that will allow you 62 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:20,839 Speaker 1: to sign up multiple people. It will explain everything. There's 63 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: like a whole process. It's more complicated than it should 64 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: be and more of pain in the ass, and it 65 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: should be because they don't want Mary's to get recall UM. 66 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: But if you go to Total Recall pd X, they 67 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: will explain the whole thing. If you're not in Portland 68 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: and you want to support the recall effort against Ted Wheeler, 69 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: who is trash like Shan did very generously, you can 70 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: also go to Total Recall PDX and you can donate. 71 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: They have paid people going out and who are helping 72 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: to um, who are helping to fund this. Timber is 73 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: a thorn's game. They're usually out there and it's you 74 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: know what, I there's there's a lesson I learned from 75 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: all this, and that is you know, there's a phrase 76 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: that comes up a lot and on this podcast too. 77 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: It's called fuck you money, and it kind of it's 78 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: usually people that are so super rich, you know they 79 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: have It's like, fuck you, I have money. Fuck you 80 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: I have enough money to change your life if I 81 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: want to. If you've annoy me. Yeah, and it's it's 82 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: something most of us will never have, never ever, nor 83 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: should we ever have, because it really kind of gollums 84 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: up your Sniegele, you know what I mean. That's a 85 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: good way to put it. So, but hey, I just 86 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: want everyone to know if I've learned nothing else from this, 87 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: It's said, if you have hope in your heart and 88 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: even but a penny in your pocket, you have fuck 89 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: Ted Wheeler money. Yeah, and that's that's together we can have. 90 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: We can have fuck Ted Wheeler a variety of things, 91 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: because it's not just money that fuck Ted Wheeler. It's 92 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 1: getting out on the ground and signing people up. It's 93 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: adding just your name or your name and people in 94 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,839 Speaker 1: your household to the sheet. All of that is in 95 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: an ephemeral sense, Ted Wheeler money. Yeah. You don't even 96 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 1: have to spend a time. You could be sitting broke 97 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:58,679 Speaker 1: in a little uh in a little cafe in Louisiana. Again, 98 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: just that little pen in your pocket. It just know 99 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: that you do have fun Ted Wheeler money. Or if 100 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 1: you're living in Portland, you've got a good relationship with 101 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: some neighbors, go out and signed some people up. There's 102 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 1: a lot of ways to fuck Ted Wheeler. Um, we 103 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: could make a joke about the fact that you just 104 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: got broken up with, but we won't because that's not classy. 105 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: Um the very little known rule thirty five. So Sean, 106 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: you I asked you when you when you won the auction, 107 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: who do you want to hear about? And you gave 108 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: me a couple of different names, And the name that 109 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: I decided to go with because I've been wanting to 110 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: cover this motherfucker for a while was Josh Dugger. And 111 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: I'm curious before we get into the episode, Um, what 112 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: do you know about Josh and why did you want 113 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: to learn more about him? So Josh Dougger. So what 114 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: I know about him was the uh, the or j Dougs, 115 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: you know, the dig dugger. Good God, I hope no 116 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: one calls him that. Not interested if she's nineteen and counting? Uh, 117 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: I know, you know obviously there's the uh, the violent 118 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: child porn that came up, the being on the kind 119 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: of pushing that quiverful life through tlcs um reality show 120 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: of nineteen accounting, and uh, he just seemed to be 121 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: a kind of like a celebrity spokesperson might not be 122 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: the right way, but but like a represented like he 123 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: mainstreamed stuff that was not that it wasn't like not 124 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: that there wasn't a significant amount of it going around 125 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: in the country. Like I grew up in it was 126 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: it was real conservative Catholic, not not quiverful necessarily, but 127 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: kind of towards that lines. And then like terms of 128 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 1: politics and stuff, um, so I kind of knew we 129 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: had a thing with that. And for me, part of 130 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: kind of growing up and and paying more attention to 131 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: things and looking back on stuff what got me interested 132 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 1: in him was because this is this is something that 133 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: is what he represents. I think is kind of not 134 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: always mainstream talked about as as a danger. A lot 135 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: of like they cause some sometimes they're ex evangelicals or 136 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: they'll call themselves ex evangelicals, Like I know people that 137 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: have struggled with like coming out of that and trying 138 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: and so there's a lot of talk in those communities 139 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: about it. Um. But I think maybe the best way 140 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: to think about it for people who aren't familiar with 141 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: it is you kind of you know, you have your 142 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: kind of maybe like your sovereign citizen type libertarians where 143 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: it's like the government should just have defense and have this, 144 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: So the kind of people he represents, I would say, 145 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: the best way to put it is they say that 146 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: and and the follow up to the government should just 147 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: do like defense and like a couple of civil things 148 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: is and the rest belongs to Jesus. And so when 149 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: you talk about separate, it's it's one of those vocabulary 150 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: things that's also purposely deceptive. I think, where like when 151 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: you talk about separation of church and state, they can 152 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: say yes because they're defining the state in a completely 153 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: different way. And I think that really kind of can 154 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: hook people into it or have people not realize what 155 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: it is. And I think there's from a little bit 156 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: of of dabbling in some of the history of like 157 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: um apocalyptic groups are knowing people that got out of 158 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: like doom colts Um. They're the vein of kind of 159 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: fundamental fundamentalism that he's in is one of those that's like, oh, 160 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: Israel becoming a state is the sign of the end time. 161 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: I'm not exactly sure if he personally is is within that. Oh, 162 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I'm pretty sure we're gonna go into 163 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: detail about the exact chunk of evangelical Christians. Yeah, you 164 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: can't really, you can't really explain the Duggers unless you 165 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: explain the quiver full movement. Um. And so we have 166 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: we have a bunch of that talk and we're not 167 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: going to go We'll go deeper into the quiver Fule 168 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: movement in another episode. I have a friend who grew 169 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: up in that particular cult and I R l uh No, 170 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 1: he has a friend of mine though, um as I said, yeah, 171 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: I went to a traditional conservative Catholic college with Yeah, yeah, yeah, 172 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: I remember. I was like Eve, I Eve has been 173 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: a friend of mine for years and years and years. 174 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: Who's how I met R. L. Stoler. Yeah? Okay, so 175 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: we actually know some of the same people who grew 176 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: up in this cult. Well, some of this is going 177 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: to be old news to you, but it'll be new 178 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: to a lot of people listening, and it's important. So 179 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna get into it. From nine to 180 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 1: two thousand to Jim Bob Dugger was a state legislator 181 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 1: in the Arkansas House of Representatives. He made a couple 182 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: of failed bids at seeking national election, and during one 183 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: of these campaigns, he took his wife and his family, 184 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: which at that point numbered fourteen kids, out to support 185 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: him on election day, he and his wife voted and 186 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: then marched off with their sizeable brood, and ap photographer 187 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 1: spotted them and took a picture. The picture was purchased 188 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 1: by the New York Times, and it went the early 189 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: odds version of viral. Now. At the time, it was 190 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: obvious that Jim Bob was a conservative Christian, but the 191 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: enormous size of his family was seen as more of 192 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: like a quirky personal choice than anything. That's how it 193 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: really got portrayed a lot in the media. In the 194 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 1: mainstream media, parenting magazines reached out to Michelle Dugger, his wife, 195 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: and asked her to write an article about child rearing. 196 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: Somewhere along the line, a savvy producer at Discovery Health 197 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: decided the Duggers would make fascinating reality TV fodder. They 198 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: put out several hour long specials featuring the family, whose 199 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: fame rose consistently until in two thousand eight they got 200 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: their own TV show, Seventeen Kids in Counting Yeah, I 201 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: would like to interject real quick, something that uh uh 202 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: an analogy or not analogy, but a comparison that came 203 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: up is because I grew up with that was one 204 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: of six kids. So and there's always like the oh, 205 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 1: it's such a big family, like it's kind of a 206 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: there's kind of that like remember from I remember from 207 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: the Rush Limbaugh Show, you Rush Limbaugh episodes, you talked 208 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: about how he was fitted by the media. It's one 209 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:54,839 Speaker 1: of those things like, oh, this is interesting, this is fun. 210 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: They don't dig and so then it gets spotlighted. We're 211 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna cover We're actually going to go deep 212 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: into one of the earliest article I've been able to 213 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,959 Speaker 1: find on the family. Um so for about seven years 214 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: after two thousand eight, which is you know, kind of 215 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: when they really hit the mainstream. The Dugger family grows 216 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 1: steadily in fame. They become millionaires. UM. I don't know exactly. 217 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: It's it's hard to tell, right because those what are 218 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 1: your net worth or what is his person's networth is 219 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: always kind of shitty. But it seems like what I've 220 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: heard is like three and a half million for Jim Bob, 221 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 1: which doesn't seem impossible. Like he's been on TV a while, 222 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: it's been a successful show. Um And as a result 223 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,079 Speaker 1: of their growing fame, they became increasingly plugged into Republican 224 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 1: Party politics. Jim Bob and his oldest son Josh, did 225 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,559 Speaker 1: photo ops with Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee, who we now 226 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: know is connected to Stevenology just one degree of separation, 227 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: and Florida Senator Marco Ruby, oh, I guess is connected 228 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: to Stevens well, probably actually has direct connections to both, 229 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: probably one step away. Um. Now, it was hardly a 230 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: secret that the Duggers were right wing, but most casual observers, 231 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: including most people who watched their shows, were unaware of 232 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: the sinister reality behind why the Dugger family had so 233 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: very many children. On July eleven, one, the Washington Post 234 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: published an article titled an American Kingdom. The logline was 235 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: this and this this showed up all over my Twitter 236 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: because of the fiction book that I just read about 237 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: this sort of thing. The logline was a new and 238 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: rapidly growing Christian movement is openly political, once a nation 239 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 1: under God's authority, and is central to Donald Trump's GOP. Now, 240 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: the article is this is what you were talking about? 241 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: Is broadly accurate in a way that it sketches out 242 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: the dimensions of the dominionist movement, which quote holds that 243 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: God commands Christians to assert authority over the seven mountains 244 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: of life, family, religion, education, economy, arts, media, and government, 245 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: and which after which time Jesus Christ will return and 246 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 1: reign for eternity. Now where that article gets things wrong 247 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: is it classifies this movement as new. It's not. Now. 248 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:53,719 Speaker 1: You could argue that it's new that because these are 249 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: you know, there's two broad in kind of this chunk 250 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: of evangelical culture. There's pre millennial and post millennia old 251 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: dispensationalist right, and Premillennials were the guys who were like, um, 252 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: it's going to like the the God is going to 253 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: like come soon and we're gonna have us a rapture 254 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: and ship. And the post millennials are like, we'll talk 255 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: about this more a little bit later, like, well, no, 256 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,719 Speaker 1: we have two ready the world for God to come back, right, 257 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: and one of those was dominant, like the left behind 258 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: books are kind of the old the older way, and 259 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: that's less dominant now because it didn't. I don't know 260 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: if you're aware of this, but the the Changing of 261 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: the Millennium didn't really do much. And there was a 262 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: movie with Nick Cage. He kind of was a movie 263 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: with Nick At that point, God, I want to know 264 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: more about how they managed to make that because remember 265 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 1: he uh, he was so deep in text for what 266 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: he had to sell his dinosaur bones and take any 267 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: movie too many dinosaurs and he had to be in 268 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: a weird Christian propaganda movie. Nicolas Cage is about the 269 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: only actor I could never be angry at for doing that, 270 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: because it's like, well, yeah, you gotta you gotta keep 271 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: your dinosaur bone addiction going. Man, I don't blame you 272 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: for that. Any movie Nicolas Cage is in, just keep 273 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: the bones flowing. That that should have been the tagline 274 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: Nicolas Cage has to bone left behind. So yeah, um yeah. 275 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: So again, not a super new movement, although it is 276 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: kind of new and being as dominant with an it 277 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: like that that has changed over time. The election of 278 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: Donald Trump was which was you know, partly fueled by 279 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: evangelical support. Um, and so sorry I framed that badly. Again, 280 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: this is not a new movement, and it's tied into 281 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: everything that's been happening over the last five six years 282 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: that have really freaked out a lot of kind of 283 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: liberals who maybe weren't paying as much attention or who 284 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: wrote off the Christian Right as kind of just like 285 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: they're just they're just nuts, right, like they all together. 286 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: It's the same thing. It's the same. It was easy 287 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: during the Obama era. It seemed like you you could 288 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: make fun of these people in the silly things they'd 289 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: say online and like movies like Jesus Camp and stuff, 290 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: and it didn't seem like as much of a it 291 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: didn't seem like they were gaining as much power as 292 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: they were. And every we're seeing today both the rise 293 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: of Donald Trump, the current assault on trans rights, and 294 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: states like Tennessee and Arkansas, the present groundswell of right 295 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: wing Christian support for crackdowns on voting rights. All of 296 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: these things have their origins in the same, very specific 297 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: Christian subculture, and for more than half a decade, the 298 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: Dugger family was the trojan horse for bringing that subculture 299 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: into the American mainstream. To understand the Duggers, we have 300 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: to talk about the Quiverful movement. The name comes from 301 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: Psalm one seven, like arrows in the hands of a warrior, 302 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: Our sons born in one's youth, blessed as the man 303 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: whose quiver is full of them, They will not be 304 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: put to shame when they contend with their enemies at 305 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: the gate and the gist of this idea is that 306 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: American society has become hopelessly godless and sinful, and if 307 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: you're going to bring the nation back to God, you 308 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: need a new generation of holy warriors to fight for Christianity. 309 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: So it's your responsibility as a true Christian to pop 310 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: out several basketball teams worth of babies in order to 311 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: fight it build the army of God. Right, that's the Again, 312 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: we both have friends who were who were raised to 313 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: be soldiers in God's army. Um. Now, the quiver full 314 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: movement evolved rather naturally out of several different strains of 315 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: right wing Christian culture. One of these was the homeschooling community. Obviously, 316 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: parents can choose to home school kids for a lot 317 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: of perfectly sane reasons. Uh. And in fact, one of 318 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: my old co workers, Christie Harrison at Cracked, who is 319 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: not at all a quiver full type you know, Christian, 320 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: home schools her family um and is a perfectly reasonable 321 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: person not shipping on the concept of home school. I 322 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: was homeschooled from first grade too through high school. Graduation 323 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: was yours, but yours was pretty reliou. I mean, it's 324 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: efet not to be so here's so here's the weird thing. 325 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: So the background on that is it was more there's 326 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: there's family dynamics, which I won't go into for the 327 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: sake of but basically it was kind of a more 328 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: of a it's a thing we should do, so it's 329 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: kind of weird, Like we did a lot of the 330 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: performative stuff without getting super into the CULTI stuff. It 331 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: was more of like viewed as an obligation to life 332 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: for the community or like grandparents or whatever. Um So 333 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: it worked for me. So I'm like on the low 334 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: end of the spectrum, and I can see like school 335 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 1: or what what used to be or maybe still is 336 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: called Asperger's um so, but uh, I can see going 337 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: to school given that, given how aware of my given 338 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: everything at home and family dynamics and issues and mental 339 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: health and all that stuff, I can see that being 340 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: a real bad time for me. So it's like it's 341 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: not a great time for most It's so I mean, 342 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: and my my dad had a restaurant, so I worked 343 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: at that, so I kind of had like one foot 344 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: in the secular, one ft in the like insular kind 345 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 1: of sheltered. Yeah, that seems like a pretty lucky and 346 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 1: it might very yeah, one of the things. But if 347 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: you're even if you're coming at it from a more 348 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 1: reasonable perspective, if you're in home schooling, you're gonna encounter 349 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: a lot of weird Christian propaganda because it's so dominant 350 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: in schooling, right, even if you're trying to be secular 351 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 1: with it, it's just everywhere in that community. Um, and yeah, 352 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 1: the practice. This leads to what I'm saying. The practice 353 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 1: of homeschooling has been heavily dominated by the evangelical Christian 354 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 1: community for decades. The U s Department of Education currently 355 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 1: estimates that more than one million school age kids are 356 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: homeschooled in the United States, and the real number could 357 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: be double or triple that because a lot of those 358 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 1: families do not participate in the census or get birth 359 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: certificates for their children. That is very common in the 360 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: Quiverful movement, if you like, especially in the fringes, not 361 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: even the fringes of it. A lot of people in 362 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: it like like maybe you get birth to maybe you 363 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: get a birth certificate for your sons, you don't get 364 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: them for your daughters because birth certificate she could leave 365 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 1: at some point a social Security number with a birth certificates, 366 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: security passport, do you leave, get get away from your 367 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: weird family, cut it off through So we really don't 368 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: know how many kids there are like this um and 369 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: that's I mean, there's a lot of other different subcultures. 370 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: Sovereign citizens get looped into some aspects of this, but 371 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: not all. Like once you're the once you're home setting 372 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere and not getting birth certificates 373 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 1: for your children, you become you're getting the co into 374 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: contact with a lot of subcultures. It's it's like the 375 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: white version of avoiding immigration to by not doing the census. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 376 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: which you you do not have. Well, I don't know, 377 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: I'm not I can't say that you shouldn't worry about 378 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 1: the census if you're an undocumented immigrant because some sketchy 379 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: ship was tried to be done by the Trump administration. 380 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's a bummer the census should it shouldn't. Yeah, yeah, 381 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: that's a whole other rand. So over the course of 382 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies and eighties, a backlash against feminism and 383 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: the civil rights movement helped lead to the birth of 384 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: the moral Majority. The first organized up swell of what 385 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: we now called the religious right. We did a two 386 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,719 Speaker 1: parter on this. Jerry Folwell was the biggest man in 387 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: that movement, but there were a lot of of I 388 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: mean it's it was a huge movement, right, A lot 389 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: of people were involved. Another prominent member of the early 390 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: religious right in the Moral Majority was Howard Phillips, a 391 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: Russian Jewish Man who converted to evangelical Christianity. He broke 392 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: off from the Republican Party in nineteen seventy four and 393 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: founded the far right Constitution Party. Now. Howard and his 394 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 1: son Doug were two of the of the first prominent 395 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: advocates of a very specific way of looking at the 396 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: Culture War in the United States. Like many in the 397 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 1: religious right, they argued that the struggle between humanism and 398 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: Christianity was a war. They went on to argue that 399 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: this war could only be won by Christian women, and 400 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: the only way for Christian women to fight was for 401 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 1: them to die to themselves. This is the term they use, 402 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: I give up their personal ambitions and completely submit to 403 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: their husbands. The basic idea, as the Phillipses and others 404 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 1: preached it was that Jesus was the general of a 405 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: great heavenly Army. Soldiers in a real army are expected 406 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: to follow orders whether or not they agree with or 407 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: understand them, unless you're in the German Army. Now, ye, 408 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: women needed to submit totally to their husbands because that's 409 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: what Jesus asked. So if they accept to the utter 410 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 1: authority of men over their lives, they would actually be 411 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: taking agency and striking a powerful blow against the deevil. 412 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 1: But giving up your life, that's that's you exercising agency. Then, 413 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: to put it in context again for the more secular people, uh, 414 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: you think about war, you know, like war crimes that 415 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: the United States gets away with. If you're in a 416 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: heavenly army, what are war crimes? You know, it's it's 417 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: it's the same where it's like, yeah, you know what's 418 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 1: gonna happen, and it's gonna get covered up and it's 419 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: okay as long as you achieve the objective. It's that yeah, yeah, yeah, 420 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: there's a lot of crimes that are fine with us. 421 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 1: But you know who doesn't do crimes unless they're rad 422 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: I was gonna say people who aren't elon Musk, but 423 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 1: then you said crimes. Yeah, I'd say crimes, not crimes 424 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: the products and services that support this podcast. Sean, have 425 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: never committed any crimes in the United States that have 426 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: been documented by journalists who have not been carboned. I 427 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 1: was gonna say, they have to be arrested for it 428 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: to be a crime. Have to be arrested for it 429 00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 1: to be a crime. That's how I live my life, 430 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: and that's how our sponsors do too. Here's some AT's. Ah, 431 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: we're back, Sean. We're talking about Howard Phillips. Uh, and 432 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: we're talking about the birth of of the religious right. 433 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: So in speeches that Doug Phillips gives to packed his son, 434 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: Doug gives to packed audiences, he reads versus from the 435 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: Bible like Ephesians five one, Uh, wives submit to your 436 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: husband's as to the Lord. For the husband is the 437 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: head of the wife, as Christ as the head of 438 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: the church, his body of which he is the Savior. 439 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 1: Now is the church submits to Christ. So also wife 440 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: should submit to their husbands and everything. Now. Doug calls 441 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: this the quote best kept secret of modern Christian marriages. 442 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: And then he says stuff like this, you are a 443 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: help meet. The Bible says that man is not made 444 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: for women, but women is made for but the woman 445 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: is made for the man. If you have a problem 446 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: with that, take it up with the creator, not Phillips. 447 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: I'm just quoting. Until we get comfortable playing those roles 448 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: will never be at peace. But if we accept those roles, 449 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 1: who half the battle is diminished already just by the 450 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: fact that we accept God's creation order. This philosophy has 451 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: come to be known as complimentarianism, i e. Women were 452 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: created not as individual beings of their own with independent 453 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 1: desires and talents, but as a compliment to men. Right. 454 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: It's the little known fact that was actually the original 455 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: tagline for a g I. Joe. Submitting to your husband's 456 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: is half the battle. Now. Feminism in this cosmology moral 457 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: cosmology is evil because it encourage encourages women to seek 458 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: their own lives independent of men, which Rob's men, who 459 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,880 Speaker 1: are again the only real people of the wifely support 460 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 1: God intended for them to have. In his speeches, Phillips 461 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: loves to quote Isaiah three twelve, which cites God's curse 462 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: upon us inful nation, children are your oppressors and women 463 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: rule over you. This is a God saying like this 464 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: is how I'm gonna curse you. If you if you 465 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: don't follow my claws, I'll make your children oppress you 466 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 1: and your the women will be in charge. Um. So 467 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,199 Speaker 1: he's saying that like if if that's what God is, like, 468 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: feminism is a curse from God if we if we 469 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: don't obey his call, will curse us with feminism. Well, 470 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: going back even further again from my upgrading, upbringing and 471 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: a lot of some people in my upbringing, and then 472 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 1: just kind of a general Christian thing, it's the whole 473 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,479 Speaker 1: Well Eve gave him the apple. So women has always 474 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: been men's downfall, and it's their place to be underfoot 475 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: because that's because that's you know, that's that was just 476 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: how it worked, because that's how the story started, how 477 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 1: the story started. Now, the nightmare for these people is 478 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 1: a world in which Christian men do not have total 479 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: control over their families. While mainstream culture filled with movies 480 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: featuring strong female protagonists in the eighties and nineties, rock 481 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: stars like Madonna, political figures like Hillary Clinton and Margaret Thatcher, 482 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 1: Phillips and his ilk preached that women's liberation would lead 483 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: to the collapse of civilization. He called the young Christians 484 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: he preached to in the nineteen nineties and early adds 485 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 1: the Rick reclamation generation, because their duty was to retake 486 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: society from liberal feminists. Um. One of the through lines 487 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: in this strain of the evangelical culture is they have 488 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: way more faith in the power of feminism than most feminists, 489 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: and I know they are really bullish on its ability 490 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: to to change society. Now, homeschooling was considered one of 491 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: the necessary tools of reclamation. By having enormous families and 492 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: teaching their children themselves outside of the sinful state education system, 493 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: Christian families could keep their children free from the sinful 494 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: secular world. One of the things I find most interesting 495 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 1: about these people is the sheer amount of weight they 496 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: give to feminism, and again they have a lot of 497 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: of They really think that it has a lot more 498 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: influence and government than I think it does. Here's Mary Pride, 499 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: editor of Practical Homeschooling magazine and one of the most 500 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: influential figures in the homeschooling movement. Quote. Christians have accepted 501 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: feminists moderate demands for family planning and careers while rejecting 502 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: the radical side of feminism, meaning lesbianism and abortion. What 503 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: most do not see is that one demand leads to 504 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: the other. Feminism is a totally self consistent system aimed 505 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: at rejecting God's role for women. Those who adopt any 506 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 1: part of its lifestyle can't help picking up its philosophy, 507 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: and those who pick up its philosophy are buying themselves 508 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: a one way ticket to social anarchy. Feminism is self consistent. 509 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: The Christianity of the fifties wasn't. Feminists had a plan 510 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: for women. Christians didn't. And this is our explanation for 511 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: why feminism was was winning and they were, you know, 512 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 1: Christianity is under siege and one. Not to be fair, 513 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 1: there's there's probably ah. I mean, obviously a lot of 514 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: people are like, no feminism, but there's probably a good 515 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 1: chunk that are that No. They have to pump it 516 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: up to get people to keep And what I say, 517 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: by the way, when I'm saying stuff like that, I 518 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: think these people have an outside idea of the impact 519 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: feminism has had. It's not an anti feminist thing. It's 520 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: just like there's still a lot of bias against women 521 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,719 Speaker 1: in our culture. I think they're overestimate, um the power 522 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: that feminism has culturally. Um Now Pride's major contribution to 523 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: the evolution of what became the Quiverfule movement was to 524 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: provide a plan for women. She helped and again that's 525 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 1: her ideas, like Christianity hasn't had a plan for women. 526 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: Feminist did and that's why we're losing. They had a 527 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: vision for the future and we didn't. Um She helped 528 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,239 Speaker 1: to create the whole integrated lifestyle of Biblical womanhood from 529 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: the book Quiverful by Katherine Joyce, which is a great 530 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: way to get up to speed on all this if 531 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: you're interested, very good book. The Biblical womanhood encompassing homework, motherhood, 532 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: and wifehood as they were lived not in the nineteen fifties, 533 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: but in a notion of pre industrial, pre household appliance 534 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: times is what Pride calls a total lifestyle as comprehensive 535 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: as the pervasive influence of feminism, which has reached every 536 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: part of women's work, lives, biology, and thinking. And this 537 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: time around, the anti feminists intend to be fiercely diligent, 538 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: rooting out the worldly feministic ideas and influences in their churches, 539 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: entertainment and owned thinking and making sure it doesn't come act. Now, 540 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: I'm leaving out a lot and again, Katherine Joyce, as 541 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: quiver Full is a great book from more complete understanding 542 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 1: of all this to other important contributors to this this 543 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 1: what becomes the ideologies of the Duggers. Follow are John 544 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: Piper and Wayne Grudom. These are both Reformed Baptist preachers 545 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: who headed up the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood 546 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: or c BMW. In nineteen seven, the year of its founding, 547 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: the c BMW released something called the Danverse Statement, which 548 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: was both a mission statement for the Council and a 549 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: rallying cry to conservative Christian forces. The statement urged Christians 550 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: to fight egalitarian influences in the evangelical church, particularly the 551 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,719 Speaker 1: scourge of Christian feminism. It argued that women should be 552 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: barred from positions of authority and churches. Now, the Danvers 553 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: Statement was signed by some people you might know. Beverly 554 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: La Hay, wife of the author of Left Behind, Tim Lay, 555 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: signed it. Pat Robertson also signed it. Dorothy Patterson and 556 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: Paige Patterson signed it. You probably don't know those last 557 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: two names, but Paige orchestrated the right wing takeover of 558 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: the Southern Baptist Convention, the organization behind the second largest 559 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: Christian denomination in the United States. We talked about this 560 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: in the Moral Majority episode. But a lot of Baptists 561 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: used to be completely fine with abortion up until like 562 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: the seventies. It was not a super controversion of the 563 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: Catholics have always had their going on about it. But 564 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: I got in trouble when I was in second grade 565 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: for leading a group of kids around to sing that 566 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: song on the playground because I just I couldn't watch 567 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: like Beats and butt Head or the Simpsons. But for 568 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: whatever reason, my family was like, well, Monty Python smart, 569 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: so whatever, you can watch as much of that as 570 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: you want. And I watched Meaning of Life in that 571 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,959 Speaker 1: song and idn't really understand it, but I let them 572 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: march around the playground singing it. And it didn't go 573 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: over well in suburban Texas. Now was it because you 574 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: sang it or because you're sang it at the end 575 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: you went just hands? It didn't do that. But I 576 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: didn't get what just hands was. Must been third or 577 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: fourth grade, but so yeah, um so. In nineteen eleven, 578 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: years after the Danver statement, the SPC, the Southern Baptist 579 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: Convention released a statement of their own in which they 580 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: urged wives to graciously submit to their husband's Mike Huckabee 581 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: was one signatory to the statement. The SPC, by the way, 582 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: speaks for about sixteen million Americans. So by the end 583 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century, many of the ideas that are 584 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: central to the quiver Full movement had started to become 585 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: mainstream on the right wing. You're not talking about a 586 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: fringe ideology when the SPC is endorsing some of this stuff, right, 587 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: that's um, well, this is was it there either the 588 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: Fallwell or the Reagan episode. I think I think it 589 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: was you that talked about it where it was like 590 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: the evangelical saw Reagan as an inn and then Reagan 591 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: used them and then didn't give them what they wanted. 592 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: So then they started going, oh, we need to start 593 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: taking over and making our stuff me. We need to 594 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: instead of just giving them our vote and expecting stuff 595 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: in return, we need to infiltrate and what our people 596 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: into is the stuff you're seeing Q and on guys 597 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: try to do right now. And Christians continue to extremist 598 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: Christians continuity where it's like, well, we got to get 599 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: people on the school boards, We've got to get people 600 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: in local elected positions. They've been doing this for a 601 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: while and it works, which is every time I see 602 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: people are left to be like no, the thing to 603 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: do is throw up a poster on Twitter and have 604 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: a march. It's like, well, that's good too. And I 605 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: get the frustration with electoralism, but they've gotten a lot 606 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: of crazy shit done because they've been voting for decades. 607 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: I don't know. We don't have the time anymore to 608 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: that's a longer. You can make radical changes democratically in 609 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: this society. Um. It just takes decades of generations of 610 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: people giving up their entire lives to the cause. Um. 611 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: But it worked for them now. Obviously, most Southern Baptists 612 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: are not out there having a dozen kids is shoeing alcohol, 613 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: forcing their daughters to wear sackcloth dresses, and refusing to 614 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: get birth certificates for their children. If you want to 615 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: view the struggle for Christian domination of the US as 616 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: a war, and these people do. The quiver full families 617 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: are like special forces. Their sons like Josh Dugger, are 618 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: supposed to be trained from childhood to seek positions of 619 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: influence in the government and culture. But I'm getting ahead 620 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: of myself here. We've covered most of the ideological underpinnings 621 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: of the quiver Fule movement. But the Dugger family are 622 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: also members of a very specific cult within this chunk 623 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: of the Christian right. They are followers of a guy 624 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: named Bill Gothard. It's spelled got Hard And that'll be 625 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: relevant and an unfortunate way later. Yeah, you know Bill, 626 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: you've familiar with Bill Gothard. I see how you erected 627 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: that joke. Um. Gothard founded the Institute in Basic Life 628 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: Principles in nineteen sixty one. So this is the religious 629 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: rights not a thing when he starts this right, not 630 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: in a political way, right. Um, So he's really on 631 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: the bleeding edge of all this. And it was originally 632 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: called Campus Teams, and its purpose was to recruit young 633 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: people obviously in campuses for christ. The ibl P was 634 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: fundamentalist from the get go, and it was also male supremacist. 635 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: Women were supposed to marry men chosen by their fathers 636 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: and submit entirely to first their father and then their husband. 637 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,239 Speaker 1: Dating and flirting were forbidden, so much as winking at 638 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: a man as seen as lustful and morally equivalent to prostitution. 639 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: In the early nineteen eighties, the ib LP was racked 640 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: by a sex scandal when it was found that Bill 641 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: and his brother Steve were both having affairs with secretaries 642 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: at the institute. Yeah, um, weird how that keeps happening. Yeah, 643 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: we're now none of these guys practice although actually you 644 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: can say they are practicing what they preach, because, as 645 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: will continue to talk about, the fault in this case 646 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: was the women because they were being temptresses. Well you know, 647 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: and if they had gotten them pregnant, I mean, bonus, 648 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: he got an Next there's the extra soldiers. So Bill 649 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: never married or had kids. Again interesting, but his ib 650 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: LP became the center of education and philosophy for the 651 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: quiver Full movement. The ib LP, starting in the late 652 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, ran what was effective and when. So his 653 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: brother has to leave the organization and Bill steps down, 654 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: but for like two weeks. And if you want a 655 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: much more detailed UM podcast series on Bill Gothard, the 656 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: podcast Someplace Underneath UM, which is part of the last 657 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: podcast on the Left Left Network did like a four 658 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: or five partner on this. That's very very good. I 659 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: was gonna say too, there's one called Christian Right Cast, 660 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: so I haven't heard that, So that that's one UM 661 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: it's a couple ex evangelicals or I forge if that's 662 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: how they're for themselves. But it's it's on Apple. I 663 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: think it may have moved to flex or something like that, 664 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: but there it goes like it goes into guys and 665 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: like there's there's a thing on Bill Gotthard and thing 666 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,359 Speaker 1: I don't know if you have it in there, but 667 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: like his his rules for how women should dress. Talk 668 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: a little bit about yeah, um yeah, check out both 669 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: of those if you want more. This is really important stuff. 670 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: In someplace underneath they go into less detail about the 671 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: stuff that I just covered, but they're going to a 672 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: lot more detail about Bill um so um. The ib 673 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: LP ran what was effectively a troubled teen facility that 674 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: started up in the late nineteen eighties, which is basically 675 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: a forced labor camp for kids, and they also operated 676 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: the Advanced Training Institute or a t I, which created 677 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: curriculum for homeschooled families. The Duggers were absolutely slavish devotees 678 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: of Gothardism, and all of their children were raised on 679 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: a TI curriculum. From a write up by former cult 680 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,359 Speaker 1: member Delanere Bartlett, who grew up in the same community, 681 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,720 Speaker 1: The a TI curriculum teaches that the Bible, as the literal, 682 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,280 Speaker 1: infallible word of God, must be the center of every lesson, 683 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: leading to some shockingly inaccurate lessons, particularly in science and history. 684 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: The A TI curriculum also has a big focus on 685 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: teaching students how they should behave immediate, unquestioning obedience to 686 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: authorities is foremost, and a TI prescribes beatings to discipline 687 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 1: children for even the most trivial of infractions, like failing 688 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: to complete a chore on time or arguing with a sibling. 689 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,919 Speaker 1: Even more disturbing, the uggers participate in blanket training, where 690 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 1: toddlers and small children are placed on a blanket and 691 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: a toy is placed judge just out of reach. When 692 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: the child reaches for the toy or moves off the blanket, 693 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: the parents will slap or hit them in order to 694 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: instill fear and obedience. And we're not going to talk 695 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: about to train up a child, but that's very big 696 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: in these cultures. Child abuses like massive in this community. Yeah, um, yeah, 697 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: I was gonna say that that sounds uh almost sounds 698 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 1: more like something you'd see on a Japanese game show. 699 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: Then yeah, it would be a fully grown man on 700 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:39,800 Speaker 1: a blanket. Let's still still. I would watch that show. 701 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: They're adults. I don't like blanket training is fine. If 702 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: that's like your canker, whatever, more power to you now. 703 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: I found another interview with a survival of Gothard's cult 704 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 1: on Salon. This person went into a great deal more 705 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: to tail about what kids were taught about sex through 706 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: this curriculum. Quote. The so called wisdom booklets that form 707 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 1: the backbone of a t I children's educations contain more 708 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: Bible verses than they do information. Particularly lacking in a 709 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: religious sect so obsessed with reproduction is any kind of 710 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: sex education. This is especially true for young women, who 711 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: receive very little sex education because the church teaches us 712 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: that women do not have sex drives. However, the opposite 713 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: is believed of men. A TI teaches that men have 714 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: nearly uncontrollable sex drives, ready to erupt at the mere 715 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: sight of a pant leg or a perm. To illustrate 716 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: this point, A t I families are encouraged to maintain 717 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,280 Speaker 1: a no computer rule for their sons, but not their daughters. 718 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 1: Gothard also encouraged men to turn towards the wall when 719 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 1: dining at restaurants so as to not be tempted by 720 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: a waitress or a stray attractive woman. You know, those 721 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,399 Speaker 1: straight attractive women just kind of out there tempting you 722 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: by existing just wandering, wandering the streets, just just constantly. 723 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: I mean that is that is how they view with 724 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: those that are called like that. That's an attack on you. 725 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,399 Speaker 1: With a woman's out there living her life, uh, and 726 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: you find her attractive, that like an assault on you. 727 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: Because if you're in an army, you're fighting another army, 728 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: so that means it's it's and they're also a unified 729 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: trained force of the devil, So they're the sexy taliban 730 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: out there trying to steal your virtue. Yeah, it's like 731 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 1: a Halloween costume, but as regular military gear. Now I'm 732 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: going to continue that quote. Not that our supposed lack 733 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,840 Speaker 1: of a sex drive absolved as from sexual responsibility a 734 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: t I taught us that it is our job to 735 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 1: keep men's desires from erupting into lust or sexual activity. 736 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 1: We were taught that it was our sin if we 737 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: cause a man to lust. After us, I spent many 738 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,439 Speaker 1: nights as an early developed teenager crying and begging God 739 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: to take away my large breasts because I noticed men's 740 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: eyes had begun to linger on me during church. Modesty 741 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: wasn't only about dress, It was also about behavior. Women 742 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 1: were taught from a very young age that they are 743 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: to be submissive in all things, allowing men to open 744 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: doors for us, even to get out of a car, 745 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: never initiating conversations with a man, and never correcting a 746 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: man when he was wrong. Essentially, a good a t 747 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: I woman is sweet, silent, and obedient. This combination of 748 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,359 Speaker 1: zo uro sexual knowledge and deeply ingrained submissiveness left many 749 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,280 Speaker 1: young girls in our church especially vulnerable to sexual abuse. 750 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: As a teenager, I became aware that several of my 751 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: friends were being molested by their older brothers or fathers. 752 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: They would start stilted conversations with me about it, but 753 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,800 Speaker 1: none of us actually understood the concept of sex or 754 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: rape or molestation enough to actually discuss it, so would 755 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: stayed on the level of furtively whispered hints. And this 756 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 1: is I mean you can draw a line here between. 757 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 1: Like nineteen eighty four, The idea behind New Speaker is 758 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: that if you if you, if you limit the vocabulary 759 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: of a community, you limit their ability to express certain 760 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,240 Speaker 1: things like that's what's going on here. If you limit 761 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 1: the ability of kids to understand sexuality in this way, 762 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: you limit their ability to know when they've been wrong. Well, 763 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,800 Speaker 1: you take away communication exactly and to kind of to 764 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 1: draw to something recent more recent as well to kind 765 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 1: of go on the other side in terms of how 766 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,400 Speaker 1: in terms of men blaming for women for stuff, there's 767 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: the uh, obviously don't know it's for effect, but the 768 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: um the Atlanta, the SPA shooter, who was they were 769 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: like I would not be surprised if it was just 770 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:11,399 Speaker 1: like basically they were immodest and so that drove me 771 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 1: and my uncontrollable hormones too. That's that shooting from what 772 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,280 Speaker 1: information we have so far, seems to be the logical 773 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 1: extent of this. This kind of thinking is like they 774 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: wouldn't stop tempting me, so yeah, I don't know, I mean, 775 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: we don't know about just like it's to get to 776 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,520 Speaker 1: give people like this isn't to bring it a little 777 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: in from the abstract is like, yeah, this is this 778 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,360 Speaker 1: is the recent stuff, and it can go a variety 779 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,800 Speaker 1: of different ways. Because people are different, they're going to 780 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 1: react differally. Take it into some of those reactions are 781 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 1: going to be scary as hell. Yeah, so, but you 782 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 1: know what's not scary as hell? Uh, a bright summer day. 783 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: I was gonna say capitalism, but uh, I guess both 784 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: capitalism and a bright summer day can be scary because 785 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,359 Speaker 1: capital is um is a part of the engine of 786 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 1: carbon release that is causing our summers to be hotter 787 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:10,799 Speaker 1: and dryer. So darker direction than I wanted to um, 788 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: But a bright summer day. I mean, it won't pay 789 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 1: you to to say that it's that's not a problem, 790 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,359 Speaker 1: So I mean catalism at least, you know, make a book. 791 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: At least I'll make a buck by denying that there's 792 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 1: any problem with it. Hey, here's okay, we're back. So 793 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: the Duggers didn't bring Bill Gothard or a t I 794 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,360 Speaker 1: up often on the show in ways that would have 795 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: been immediately obvious. You could see books in the show, right, 796 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: There's always there's a lot of like it's visible if 797 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 1: you know what to look for, but they're not out 798 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: there like talking about how awesome Bill Gothard is. The 799 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 1: signs were there if you knew where to look. At 800 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: Dugger weddings, celebrants would dedicate an entire cake to Bill Gothard, 801 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,239 Speaker 1: which is again cult ship. All the Dugger women had 802 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: distinctively permed hair because Bill believed that curly bangs brought 803 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 1: out a woman's natural beauty. Uh. The antiquated dress codes 804 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 1: that the Dugger family engaged in, particularly for women in 805 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 1: the family, were also a major part of like a 806 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: result of Bill Gothard's influence. Over the years they were 807 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,400 Speaker 1: on TV, the Dugger family, particularly Jim Bob, were extremely 808 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 1: open about the fact that their show His Career, was 809 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,280 Speaker 1: a ministry. They saw it as a way to recruit. 810 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: With the help of the Discovery camera crew, selective editing 811 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,760 Speaker 1: and scripting, they were able to portray what was really 812 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,920 Speaker 1: in reality and abusive cult as a quirky lifestyle choice, 813 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 1: perhaps even one viewers would want to emulate. Jim Bob 814 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,240 Speaker 1: liked to say that they were just trying to convince 815 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,719 Speaker 1: people not to get abortions because by seeing that, like, oh, well, 816 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 1: this family can handle fourteen fifteen sixteen kids, so obviously 817 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 1: I should keep this one kid, right. Um. It was 818 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:47,239 Speaker 1: a big part of like why he said they were 819 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: doing it. But of course, the real purpose behind all 820 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,320 Speaker 1: this was to build a larger cultural space for Gothardi 821 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: is m the quiver Full movement, and male supremacist fundamentalist 822 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 1: Christianity and American culture. This is also part of a 823 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: broader fundamentalist strategy. It came about as part of a 824 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:08,360 Speaker 1: split between premillennial and post millennial dispensationalists. The former believed 825 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,239 Speaker 1: that the Rapture was coming in any day and soon 826 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 1: the faith will be brought up to Heaven the world 827 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,239 Speaker 1: would end. The latter belief that God wouldn't let Christ 828 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 1: return until they established a godly world. In order to 829 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,399 Speaker 1: do that, they had to recruit, and it wasn't enough 830 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,000 Speaker 1: to get people to accept Christ. They had to convince 831 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 1: folks to follow the rules their rules, otherwise the world 832 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't be godly enough. Since those rules are very unpleasant 833 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 1: and extreme. You have to lure people in gradually by 834 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 1: reaching them with something less extreme and drawing them in 835 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:39,279 Speaker 1: like a fish on a lure from Quiverfull quote. Mark 836 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,520 Speaker 1: Driscoll's Mars Hill Church, rated the eighth most influential church 837 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,720 Speaker 1: in America, relies on the fixtures of emergent or seeker 838 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,920 Speaker 1: oriented ministries, such as countercultural groups like bikers or skaters. 839 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,799 Speaker 1: For Christ to attract to attract its young urban congregation, 840 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,839 Speaker 1: but churches like Mars Hill, which espouses a deeply conservative ideology, 841 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 1: recognized that such outreach ministry are meant to be transitional, 842 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 1: introducing a person to Christ where they are then easing 843 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 1: them into more serious study and graduating them to a 844 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,560 Speaker 1: traditionalist doctrine and DRIs School's case, to a doctrine that 845 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 1: places substantial weight on gender submission and a wife's role 846 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,920 Speaker 1: in marriage. So again, these are all this is just 847 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,279 Speaker 1: it's how colts work. It's out it's how cut non works. 848 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: Do you can see it? And in the fact that 849 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,120 Speaker 1: like there's elements of Q that are about the JFK conspiracy, 850 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 1: the elements of Q that are about like aliens and 851 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,120 Speaker 1: stuff that they're about vaccines, and it all leads back 852 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,319 Speaker 1: to this er conspiracy and that's how people get pulled in. 853 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,880 Speaker 1: And that's what makes it more. It's syncretism, you know, 854 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:43,200 Speaker 1: It's it's how it all work. Wasn't that the Bill Cooper? Yeah, 855 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 1: that was the he was making a bread at that. Yeah, 856 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 1: Q and on Anonymous just did a episode on Bill Cooper. 857 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:54,600 Speaker 1: I do love Bill. He really did everything right. Um, 858 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,319 Speaker 1: one of these days one of these days. But oh yeah, 859 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: I did a two part I remember listening to it, 860 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,279 Speaker 1: did a fever dream that like Bill, I hope to 861 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,000 Speaker 1: go out a mountaintop assault by law enforcement. Um while 862 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:14,720 Speaker 1: broadcasting nonsense on the radio. Um. Yeah. So the Duggers 863 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,839 Speaker 1: TV ministry worked the same way as like these kind 864 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:19,759 Speaker 1: of bikers and skaters for christ at the at the 865 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,319 Speaker 1: mars holtrage were it's it's all the same idea. To 866 00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: draw people in, you have to white wash a lot 867 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: of realities about their lifestyle, make it look good, and 868 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,560 Speaker 1: once people start to get in, you can start laying 869 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:33,520 Speaker 1: on some of the more heavy stuff. Um, here's one 870 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,120 Speaker 1: issue with their lifestyle. He's one of the reasons why 871 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,600 Speaker 1: what they're actually doing is objectively bad. This is not 872 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,120 Speaker 1: just I'm not just saying it because I'm not religious. 873 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,360 Speaker 1: I'm saying this because it's abusive. And one of the 874 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,040 Speaker 1: reasons it's abusive is that nineteen kids is way the 875 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,799 Speaker 1: funk too many for two parents to adequately care for 876 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 1: in most situations almost but I'm gonna say any situation. 877 00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 1: The Duggers explain how they do this as using the 878 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 1: buddy system. Every kid has a buddy, an older sibling 879 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,359 Speaker 1: who is supposed to help raise and take care of them. 880 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 1: Mom's buddy is the youngest baby, well she's nursing, but 881 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,279 Speaker 1: once that's done, she hands the baby off to the 882 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,440 Speaker 1: next youngest daughter in the cycle goes on. Most quiverful 883 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,520 Speaker 1: families work this way. I've heard from my friend even 884 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: her family works that work this way. The daughters, as 885 00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:16,640 Speaker 1: a general rule, are the ones doing most of the 886 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,600 Speaker 1: child rearing because there's too many kids for the parents 887 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,720 Speaker 1: to do it all. And that's not great. Obviously, siblings 888 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,359 Speaker 1: are supposed to your older siblings supposed to look at 889 00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,040 Speaker 1: for younger siblings. You definitely learn things from your siblings. 890 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,040 Speaker 1: You're they're not supposed to be parents, that that robs 891 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 1: them of the chance to be a chief. Well, well 892 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:36,720 Speaker 1: we'll wait a minute. Wait a minute, wait a minute, 893 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 1: So let me get this straight. You're saying the large 894 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 1: family basically does a capitalism on its straw and its instructure, 895 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:51,680 Speaker 1: where the CEO make middle management and the workers do 896 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,600 Speaker 1: all that. Wait, but you're saying that doesn't work. Yeah, 897 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,360 Speaker 1: I mean the people I know who grew up in 898 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,440 Speaker 1: it have complaints. I'm innocent for this. I don't know 899 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:06,439 Speaker 1: I don't think so. Most Cuivolental families work this way, 900 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,480 Speaker 1: and again it's usually the daughters who do most of 901 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:09,759 Speaker 1: the sun is supposed to do some of it, but 902 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,359 Speaker 1: it's generally the daughters who are handling an awful lot 903 00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 1: of the child ring and this is a huge burden 904 00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:16,360 Speaker 1: on them. It stops them from having a childhood. It 905 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,960 Speaker 1: also means that older siblings are often the only ones 906 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,640 Speaker 1: watching out for their younger siblings. This becomes a problem 907 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,680 Speaker 1: when one of those older siblings is a sexual abuser, 908 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:31,280 Speaker 1: and that brings us to Josh Dugger. Joshua James Dugger 909 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,719 Speaker 1: was born on March third night. He was born in Tauntatown, Arkansas, 910 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,720 Speaker 1: to Jim Bob and Michelle Dugger. When Josh was a baby, 911 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,200 Speaker 1: the family was much less extreme in their beliefs than 912 00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,560 Speaker 1: they would become. Michelle had taken birth control before getting pregnant, 913 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,160 Speaker 1: and she started taking it again after Josh was born. 914 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,440 Speaker 1: She suffered a miscarriage, though, which she and Jim Bob 915 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:52,799 Speaker 1: blamed on the birth control. We obviously have no idea 916 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,160 Speaker 1: what comes. Miscarriage has happened, you know, it's just a thing, 917 00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,120 Speaker 1: been real quick. That's that's that's another thing. I think 918 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:02,000 Speaker 1: that can get people suck. Then, like my parents weren't 919 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,680 Speaker 1: very religious, they kind of wandered away. And then it's 920 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,360 Speaker 1: like you have a kid, and then all of a sudden, 921 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,359 Speaker 1: like everything Like it's something about having that makes you 922 00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,560 Speaker 1: like kind of I don't know if it's just like 923 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,719 Speaker 1: that insecurity of like am I doing things right or 924 00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:17,160 Speaker 1: what or not? But I think it makes you more 925 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,799 Speaker 1: a pliable to get sucked into something. Yeah, I mean 926 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,080 Speaker 1: that totally makes sense. Um. And it's it's all I 927 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:26,960 Speaker 1: think a lot of it is just like you have 928 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,920 Speaker 1: a kid. It's really scary because like there's no really 929 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,360 Speaker 1: there's no map for how to have a kid and 930 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,319 Speaker 1: raise it right. And like sometimes people do everything right 931 00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:38,640 Speaker 1: and your kid, I don't know, murder somebody or something like. 932 00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,719 Speaker 1: It's terrifying having a kid. Um. And I think a 933 00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:44,839 Speaker 1: lot of people are like, well, this group says they 934 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,839 Speaker 1: have a perfect roadmap for everything. Even if I follow it, 935 00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:50,520 Speaker 1: my kids will will turn out perfectly. Um, So I'll 936 00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,240 Speaker 1: just do that because this is terrifying. Hi, I'm Dr 937 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,719 Speaker 1: Reverend Priest. I have an answer. Would you like to 938 00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,799 Speaker 1: come worship with me? Yeah? All you have to do 939 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:00,960 Speaker 1: is put these weird dresses on your kids and have 940 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,000 Speaker 1: thirty of them, Um, and it'll be great. Here's a blanket, 941 00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,879 Speaker 1: you'll know what to do. So yeah, they blame that there. 942 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,600 Speaker 1: Um they blame their miscarriage on on birth control, and 943 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,359 Speaker 1: like that's the what causes them to like get much 944 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,160 Speaker 1: more into the into the fundamentalist side of things. They 945 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,720 Speaker 1: decided to let God choose the size of their family, 946 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:19,319 Speaker 1: and this led them to have more than a dozen 947 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,080 Speaker 1: children in a very short span of time. Now, the 948 00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,200 Speaker 1: Dugger family was not poor. Jim Bob Brandy used car lot, 949 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,319 Speaker 1: but prior to discovery coming into the picture, they were 950 00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:30,880 Speaker 1: not wealthy, and by the early adds, the family of 951 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:35,160 Speaker 1: sixteen lived in a square foot rented home. Most large 952 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,719 Speaker 1: quiverful families live in fairly cramped environs. People who knew 953 00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:40,719 Speaker 1: the Duggers before fame said their home was not a 954 00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,880 Speaker 1: typical of the community. It was far too small. It 955 00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:45,800 Speaker 1: often smelled gross because there's a lot of babies and 956 00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:47,760 Speaker 1: a lot of diapers. It was dirty, filled with clutter 957 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,319 Speaker 1: and the kind of refuse that again, all those kids create. Now, 958 00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,799 Speaker 1: during Jim Bob's brief time as an elected state representative, 959 00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,360 Speaker 1: he would bring Joshua with him to the state capital. 960 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,400 Speaker 1: The goal was to groom josh for a political future, 961 00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,839 Speaker 1: and people who knew the family in this time tend 962 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,160 Speaker 1: to think that many Gothard just saw him as the 963 00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,759 Speaker 1: future of the movement. He was nicknamed Governor by Republicans 964 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,880 Speaker 1: who worked with his dad. The first major news coverage 965 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,000 Speaker 1: I found of the Dugger family was a Dallas Morning 966 00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,000 Speaker 1: News article written in December two thousand five, two years 967 00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:19,840 Speaker 1: after that New York Times photo brought Discovery into the picture, 968 00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,920 Speaker 1: and the Duggers were the subject of their own TV specials. 969 00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,359 Speaker 1: The article is a fascinating piece of what I call 970 00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,880 Speaker 1: complicity journalism. Almost every detail of the quiver Full movement 971 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,719 Speaker 1: and Bill Gothard that was was easily available when this 972 00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,120 Speaker 1: article was published. There was a lot of information that 973 00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,600 Speaker 1: the Dallas Morning News could have accessed about what these 974 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,959 Speaker 1: people believed, but the author, Arnold Hamilton's, did zero work 975 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,320 Speaker 1: to lay out anything about what the Duggers were actually into. 976 00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,360 Speaker 1: Here's a quote. As a couple, the Duggers approached to 977 00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:48,600 Speaker 1: family planning as simple. They are born again Christians who 978 00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:50,360 Speaker 1: view of the Bible as their life's manual, and the 979 00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,040 Speaker 1: Bible describes children as a blessing from God. They will 980 00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,960 Speaker 1: cheerfully accept as many blessings as God ordains. The reality, 981 00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,680 Speaker 1: of course, is that they don't. The Bible is not 982 00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,680 Speaker 1: their own manual. A t I. Bill Gothard is their manual, 983 00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,759 Speaker 1: and that manual says that women are not full autonomous people, 984 00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,320 Speaker 1: but merely an appendage to men and their rightful purposes 985 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:10,879 Speaker 1: to serve without question. But pointing that out would make 986 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,040 Speaker 1: this fun story about a big family sound more like 987 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,520 Speaker 1: a story of child abuse, so they don't talk about that. 988 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,480 Speaker 1: The author points out several times that the Duggers own 989 00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,960 Speaker 1: their own business and home debt free. This is a 990 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,200 Speaker 1: big deal in that community. And there's a lot of 991 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,440 Speaker 1: kind of less extreme elements of this that are still 992 00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,520 Speaker 1: wrapped up in this that what is that guy who 993 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,600 Speaker 1: does those debt free seminars that's like weird and dead. Yeah, 994 00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:35,120 Speaker 1: the rich dead poor. I mean that's one of them. 995 00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:39,279 Speaker 1: There's a couple. I mean it's um and Yeah, it's 996 00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,960 Speaker 1: this whole idea that like you shouldn't have it's immoral 997 00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,520 Speaker 1: kind of to have debt, and a lot of which 998 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,800 Speaker 1: I'm not in favor. I think it's like horribly fucked 999 00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:49,680 Speaker 1: up the way the system of debt and the credit 1000 00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,640 Speaker 1: and stuff works in this country. I'm not You're not 1001 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:57,040 Speaker 1: as wrong. Yeah, it's the system. It's not you. Yeah. Um. 1002 00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,480 Speaker 1: And if you're like it's kind of impossible in a 1003 00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:03,799 Speaker 1: lot of way is to take advantag like, your life 1004 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,399 Speaker 1: will be a lot harder if, for example, you're never 1005 00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,319 Speaker 1: able to build up enough credit that you can like 1006 00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:11,840 Speaker 1: try to buy a home or something, because renting sucks, 1007 00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,960 Speaker 1: ass um. And there's there's a lot of things avenues 1008 00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:17,480 Speaker 1: that get closed off to you when you don't buy. 1009 00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:19,759 Speaker 1: And that's that's not great. I wish it didn't work 1010 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,880 Speaker 1: that way. But this is a problem for a lot 1011 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,279 Speaker 1: of people in the quiver full movement, um, because it 1012 00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:28,920 Speaker 1: leads to them not being able to access the kind 1013 00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,040 Speaker 1: of resources they need to properly care for families that 1014 00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:34,440 Speaker 1: are so large. Uh. Quote, the Duggers lived temporarily in 1015 00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,520 Speaker 1: suare foot rented house along a busy street not far 1016 00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:39,800 Speaker 1: from Interstate five forty in this town of about fifty. 1017 00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,000 Speaker 1: They are building debt free a seven thousand square foot 1018 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:48,800 Speaker 1: house in nearby Taunta town. Now this is um, this 1019 00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:50,480 Speaker 1: this gets to something that's kind of messed up here 1020 00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:54,560 Speaker 1: because again, a lot of these families are in crushing 1021 00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:57,400 Speaker 1: poverty because they can't have debts, so they're often building 1022 00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,040 Speaker 1: their own homes in the middle of nowhere. They don't 1023 00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,080 Speaker 1: have access to indoor plumbing in a lot of cases, 1024 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:03,319 Speaker 1: a lot of the again you have families that don't 1025 00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:06,000 Speaker 1: have Social Security numbers. They are in the middle of nowhere. 1026 00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:08,880 Speaker 1: There's fifteen kids living in what is essentially a shack. 1027 00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,560 Speaker 1: Like that's that's a significant element of this. It's not 1028 00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,359 Speaker 1: the way the Duggers live. Because the Duggers get a 1029 00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,200 Speaker 1: shipload of money from Discovery to build a nice, very 1030 00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,239 Speaker 1: large new house. And this is something they don't talk about. 1031 00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,000 Speaker 1: They talk about how they're doing it debt free. They 1032 00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:24,839 Speaker 1: talk about how and make it look like this, Well, 1033 00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:27,520 Speaker 1: because we're just we're scrimping, we save, and we're we're 1034 00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:29,320 Speaker 1: very consistent our beliefs, and so we've been able to 1035 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,040 Speaker 1: build this this very large house. Um, and if you, 1036 00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:34,279 Speaker 1: if you have the kind of financial discipline and listen 1037 00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,839 Speaker 1: to the teachers about financial discipline we do, you two 1038 00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:38,680 Speaker 1: can build a house like we have and like have 1039 00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:40,960 Speaker 1: a giant family like we've. It's just not possible for 1040 00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,319 Speaker 1: most people. We did it with Kupin's Yeah, we did 1041 00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,120 Speaker 1: it all with coupons and tens of thousands of dollars 1042 00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:52,040 Speaker 1: from the Discovery Channel, which helps a lot um. It's 1043 00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:54,160 Speaker 1: like all those it's like all those articles about like 1044 00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,600 Speaker 1: how I bought my first home at like thirty two, 1045 00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:58,320 Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, because your parents give you a a 1046 00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,840 Speaker 1: d dollars for the down payment, that would help a 1047 00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:03,760 Speaker 1: lot of people can afford a house with a hundred 1048 00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:06,760 Speaker 1: fifty grand from their parents. But that great Twitter Twitter 1049 00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,279 Speaker 1: mame going around where it's like on one on one 1050 00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:11,520 Speaker 1: side it's it's one of those articles where they're talking 1051 00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:13,640 Speaker 1: about it, and on the other side it's say the 1052 00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:16,200 Speaker 1: line from The Simpsons where they're all around Bart waiting 1053 00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,719 Speaker 1: for him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got it from my parents. 1054 00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:23,399 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, there we go. Yeah. Now, the Duggers don't 1055 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,399 Speaker 1: talk about any of like the money they got from 1056 00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,640 Speaker 1: Discovery Channel. They talked about how their Christian financial counseling 1057 00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:31,600 Speaker 1: helped them establish a business and buy a property and 1058 00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:33,640 Speaker 1: build a seven thousand square halfwood house. Debt free in 1059 00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:36,360 Speaker 1: their community came together to help them build it, and 1060 00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:38,760 Speaker 1: it makes their lifestyle seem like not just a miracle, 1061 00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:40,319 Speaker 1: but a miracle that you two can half if you 1062 00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:43,919 Speaker 1: follow the same rules right, which again, most people who 1063 00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:45,840 Speaker 1: do the kinds of things that duggers do live in 1064 00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,880 Speaker 1: very very difficult circumstances in a lot of cases. And 1065 00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,640 Speaker 1: it's it's a great going back to synchronicity because it 1066 00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:58,600 Speaker 1: also reinforces the kind of UH Calvinists prosperity gospel. The 1067 00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:00,759 Speaker 1: whole thing where we got it beca as we deserved it, 1068 00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:02,600 Speaker 1: were blessed by God. If you didn't get it, it's 1069 00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,120 Speaker 1: your fault. Yeah, if you were doing the right thing, 1070 00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:08,200 Speaker 1: if you were doing bless you. With the Discovery TV 1071 00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:13,719 Speaker 1: show Ye the Circle of Life. Now, I want to 1072 00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:17,480 Speaker 1: quote again because I want to talk about it's important 1073 00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,840 Speaker 1: to really lean into the fact that most quiverful families 1074 00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:24,680 Speaker 1: do not enjoy this level of financial comfort. So I 1075 00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:26,759 Speaker 1: want to quote again from that Salon column from a 1076 00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,359 Speaker 1: former member of the quiver Fule movement titled I could 1077 00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,439 Speaker 1: have been a Dugger wife. One key difference worth noting 1078 00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:35,680 Speaker 1: between the reality show of nineteen Kids and Counting and 1079 00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:37,920 Speaker 1: the reactual reality of a t I though, is the 1080 00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:41,200 Speaker 1: relative affluence of the Duggers compared to most a TI families. 1081 00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,440 Speaker 1: The Duggers live in a spacious, Discovery Networks funded home, 1082 00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:46,799 Speaker 1: but it was not unusual in my church for two 1083 00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:49,080 Speaker 1: parents and ten children to live packed into a single 1084 00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,400 Speaker 1: wide trailer. These children usually wear threadbare hand me downs, 1085 00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:55,160 Speaker 1: already passed through several rounds of siblings. Many of them 1086 00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,240 Speaker 1: look malnourished due to the abundance of starchy meals necessary 1087 00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,240 Speaker 1: on a lean one parent income. Women and mothers working 1088 00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:03,960 Speaker 1: outside of the home is absolutely forbidden in a t I, 1089 00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,040 Speaker 1: no matter what the financial situation of the family. Some 1090 00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:09,480 Speaker 1: women are even required to get permission from their husbands 1091 00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:12,560 Speaker 1: if they want to obtain a driver's license. That affluence 1092 00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,280 Speaker 1: makes the constant growth of the Dugger family, their wildly 1093 00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:18,359 Speaker 1: exaggerated version of a large family upon which their TV 1094 00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:22,800 Speaker 1: fame is built, possible again in a lot of ways. 1095 00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:27,000 Speaker 1: Not only is Discovery mainstreaming this, they're enabling the Duggers 1096 00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:28,719 Speaker 1: to do this because they just couldn't afford to live 1097 00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:32,399 Speaker 1: like this otherwise. Now that Dallas Morning News article does 1098 00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:34,839 Speaker 1: note that the family isn't getting Christmas gifts that year 1099 00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,000 Speaker 1: because the house they're building is their gift for everybody, 1100 00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:39,279 Speaker 1: and Jim Bob gives some quaint advice about eating out 1101 00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:41,200 Speaker 1: on the dollar menu to save money when the family 1102 00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:43,960 Speaker 1: goes out, but no attention has ever paid to the 1103 00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,320 Speaker 1: fact that this house they live in was made possible 1104 00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:49,239 Speaker 1: thanks to Discovery Channel money. In general, that article and 1105 00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:51,880 Speaker 1: all the early and media surrounding the Duggers made them 1106 00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,800 Speaker 1: out to be a quirky, strange, but ultimately relatable family 1107 00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:57,239 Speaker 1: living a different kind of lifestyle, but one that was 1108 00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,360 Speaker 1: fundamentally healthy, perhaps even healthier than the lives many of 1109 00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:03,160 Speaker 1: their viewers. This is as close as that article gets 1110 00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:06,080 Speaker 1: to acknowledging the fundamentalist cult at the core of their beliefs. 1111 00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:09,399 Speaker 1: The Duggers may be swimming against societies tied with such 1112 00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:11,839 Speaker 1: a large family, but it's clear children, lots and lots 1113 00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,160 Speaker 1: of children, are at the core of their social network. 1114 00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:16,400 Speaker 1: They are members of a home church that numbers around 1115 00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,840 Speaker 1: one hundred, They are active in a home schooling network. 1116 00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:21,200 Speaker 1: Their friends all seem to have lots of children. One 1117 00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,400 Speaker 1: family has nine, another six, and there and they're almost 1118 00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:26,960 Speaker 1: seems to have evolved an unofficial, loose knit network of 1119 00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:30,280 Speaker 1: large families that homeschool their children and attend in home churches. 1120 00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,120 Speaker 1: Some even have volunteered time to help the Duggers complete 1121 00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:36,400 Speaker 1: their home by mid January. An unofficial, loose knit network. 1122 00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:41,040 Speaker 1: Not what I would describe this cult as UM. It's 1123 00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:44,920 Speaker 1: pretty tightly net um and makes tens of millions of dollars. 1124 00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,520 Speaker 1: Now the reality, of course, yeah, they're members of a cult. UM. 1125 00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,560 Speaker 1: The success of their TV show and the thoughtlessly positive 1126 00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:54,760 Speaker 1: media coverage of their unusually large brood disguised this for 1127 00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:57,080 Speaker 1: a while. But from the beginning there was a dark 1128 00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:59,040 Speaker 1: side to the Dugger story. And this brings me back 1129 00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:01,680 Speaker 1: again to Joshua Dugger. I had to really go into 1130 00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:05,360 Speaker 1: the weeds to do this one for you. UM. In 1131 00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:08,520 Speaker 1: two thousand two, when Joshua was fourteen, he accosted his 1132 00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:11,840 Speaker 1: sister in the night and fondled her breasts and genitals. 1133 00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,200 Speaker 1: This sister eventually went to her father and told him 1134 00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:16,840 Speaker 1: what had happened. It is unclear whether or not Jim 1135 00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,880 Speaker 1: Bob acted on this information. At first, he claimed on 1136 00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,360 Speaker 1: a two thousand six police report and again the abuse 1137 00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:25,200 Speaker 1: started in two thousand two, that it was not and 1138 00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:27,680 Speaker 1: this report was not released until recently, that he disciplined 1139 00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:30,520 Speaker 1: josh when he learned about the abuse. If he did 1140 00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:33,520 Speaker 1: it did not stop the behavior. Between two thousand two 1141 00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:36,080 Speaker 1: and two thousand three, josh molested two of his sisters 1142 00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:39,480 Speaker 1: on at least four to five occasions. This evidently prompted 1143 00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:42,960 Speaker 1: Jim Bob Dugger to take more significant action, not going 1144 00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:47,240 Speaker 1: to the cops, of course. Well yeah, kind of yeah, 1145 00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:52,760 Speaker 1: I mean eventually we're getting there. Yeah, we're getting twists. Um. 1146 00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:55,720 Speaker 1: He went to the church elders, who advised Jim Bob 1147 00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:58,960 Speaker 1: to send his son to a Christian training program. In 1148 00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:02,200 Speaker 1: an early report, Walker described this program as involving quote, 1149 00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:04,680 Speaker 1: hard work and counseling, and most covers will be like 1150 00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:07,840 Speaker 1: that's he went to a like a physical labor kind 1151 00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:10,680 Speaker 1: of like treatment program. It sounds like I don't know, 1152 00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:13,520 Speaker 1: I don't know what the solution is Like obviously, if 1153 00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:15,280 Speaker 1: you're a parent, even the best parent, this is like 1154 00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:18,720 Speaker 1: a nightmare, impossible situation to handle. Like there's no there's 1155 00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,760 Speaker 1: no perfect way to deal with this kind of horrible thing. Um, 1156 00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:23,440 Speaker 1: So I'm not gonna say there's no I'm sure there 1157 00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:27,040 Speaker 1: are treatment programs that are helpful. Um. But Michelle Dugger 1158 00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:28,960 Speaker 1: has since admitted that when he was going to this 1159 00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:33,520 Speaker 1: treatment program, Joshua did not see a counselor, so what 1160 00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:37,120 Speaker 1: did his treatment involve? Thankfully, a lot has been written 1161 00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,840 Speaker 1: about how Bill Gothard's A t I counsels both victims 1162 00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:42,720 Speaker 1: and perpetrators of sexual abuse. And that's who ran the camp. 1163 00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:44,400 Speaker 1: It was an A t I camp. I want to 1164 00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:46,680 Speaker 1: quote from an interview with one woman who was sexually 1165 00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:49,720 Speaker 1: abused by staff at A t I for some context 1166 00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:52,360 Speaker 1: of how the process of dealing with sexual abuse within 1167 00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:55,640 Speaker 1: this cold works. From the New York Post quote, the 1168 00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:58,480 Speaker 1: organization did have a protocol for counseling sex abuse. A 1169 00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:01,240 Speaker 1: chart published in two thousand third teen by Recovering Grace, 1170 01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:03,920 Speaker 1: a resource for ex followers of ib LP and A 1171 01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,360 Speaker 1: t I that the site claims was distributed at A 1172 01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:08,920 Speaker 1: t I counseling seminars for more than a decade. It 1173 01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:11,400 Speaker 1: explains how group leaders should help those who have experienced 1174 01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:13,920 Speaker 1: sexual assault. The onus for the attack is put on 1175 01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:17,640 Speaker 1: the victim for defrauding the abuser. A modest dress, in 1176 01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:21,080 Speaker 1: decent exposure, being out from protection of our parents are 1177 01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:24,560 Speaker 1: all reasons that God let it happen, it reads. One 1178 01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:26,880 Speaker 1: marriage guide for women even includes a portion on what 1179 01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:29,640 Speaker 1: to do if your husband ever sexually handles your children. 1180 01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:33,040 Speaker 1: Author Debbie Pearl, a minister whose books were sold by IBLP, 1181 01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:37,000 Speaker 1: wrote in Created to Be His help Meet. Although wives 1182 01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:39,480 Speaker 1: should testify and pray that their husbands get twenty years 1183 01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:41,880 Speaker 1: in prison, they should also visit him. There be an 1184 01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:44,360 Speaker 1: encouragement to him, let him see the children three to 1185 01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,560 Speaker 1: four times a year, and girls Bible study. Smith said 1186 01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:49,800 Speaker 1: she was told, you need to be very careful what 1187 01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:52,520 Speaker 1: you do, what you say, what you wear, how you act, 1188 01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:55,240 Speaker 1: because at any moment you could trigger a boy. Basically, 1189 01:00:55,520 --> 01:01:00,080 Speaker 1: there's absolutely no personal responsibility for the boys now. A 1190 01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:03,080 Speaker 1: source for that article, Ms Smith was molested while working 1191 01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:05,520 Speaker 1: at a t I S training center by a twenty 1192 01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:07,600 Speaker 1: one year old staff member. He had a key to 1193 01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:09,720 Speaker 1: her room and would come in every night and force 1194 01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:12,040 Speaker 1: himself on her. They did not have sex, but in 1195 01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:14,800 Speaker 1: her words, we did everything else. I didn't have the 1196 01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:17,600 Speaker 1: capacity to say, hey, I don't like it, which is 1197 01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:20,360 Speaker 1: key to the Dugger case too, because one side effect 1198 01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:21,960 Speaker 1: of the lack of sex set is that girls don't 1199 01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:24,120 Speaker 1: grow up with any kind of vocabulary to describe what's 1200 01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:27,440 Speaker 1: happening to them. The reality of a TI Bill Gothard 1201 01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:29,440 Speaker 1: and the whole Quiverful movement is that it is a 1202 01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:32,280 Speaker 1: cult not just dedicated to breeding up Christian soldiers, but 1203 01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:34,360 Speaker 1: to providing the men at the top of it with 1204 01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,480 Speaker 1: a constant stream of helpless victims, women they can molest 1205 01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:40,320 Speaker 1: and then blame for it. Here's another quote from that article. 1206 01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:42,960 Speaker 1: When she returned home from the center, she and her 1207 01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:46,720 Speaker 1: father surprisingly received a call from Gothard, who's basically God, 1208 01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:49,360 Speaker 1: said Smith. She assumes her friend had told one of 1209 01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:52,160 Speaker 1: the leaders about the incidents, although she was expecting to 1210 01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:56,200 Speaker 1: be reprimanded. Instead, Gothard wanted the dirty details. He started 1211 01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:59,160 Speaker 1: asking the creepiest questions. He was like, what time did 1212 01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:01,880 Speaker 1: he kiss you? What time did he put his hands here? 1213 01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,600 Speaker 1: And did he do this to you? Smith remembered calling 1214 01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:09,120 Speaker 1: it gross. So this is the guy who ran the 1215 01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:11,480 Speaker 1: treatment program that Josh went to. This is how he 1216 01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:16,120 Speaker 1: handles allegations of sexual abuse within his his thing. So 1217 01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:21,480 Speaker 1: not an effective treatment program. I think it's fair to say, Sean, 1218 01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:23,800 Speaker 1: we're going to talk more about Bill Gothor, Josh Dougger 1219 01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:25,760 Speaker 1: and a lot of other very unpleasant people in part do. 1220 01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:28,880 Speaker 1: But for right now, how are you feeling? Oh? You know, 1221 01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:34,320 Speaker 1: he picked a heavy one. It's uh, yeah, it's heavy. 1222 01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:36,560 Speaker 1: It's well, it was like, it's heavy, should be talked about. 1223 01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:40,120 Speaker 1: It's it's nice, you know, it's it's one of a 1224 01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:42,040 Speaker 1: few times I'm like, you know what, I'm glad I 1225 01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:44,680 Speaker 1: can look across the room and see Saddam Hussein and 1226 01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:47,280 Speaker 1: Saddam Hussein's best friend, and I feel a little better 1227 01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:49,240 Speaker 1: about the world. They are right here. It does help 1228 01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:53,280 Speaker 1: talking about horrible molestation cults. When there's cats sitting on 1229 01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:55,800 Speaker 1: your legs and passed out, they've had a hard day 1230 01:02:55,840 --> 01:03:02,040 Speaker 1: of mostly sleeping, so they need their rest. Show on. UM. Well, yeah, 1231 01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:04,240 Speaker 1: that's gonna do it for part one. We'll come back 1232 01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:09,120 Speaker 1: in part two and have more uncomfortable conversations. UM. Thank 1233 01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:11,840 Speaker 1: you for donating and helping to fund the recall effort 1234 01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:15,480 Speaker 1: against Mayor Ted Wheeler. UH, and those of you at home, 1235 01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:18,160 Speaker 1: if you're in the Portland area, go to Total Recall 1236 01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:20,960 Speaker 1: pd x. You can find out how you can sign 1237 01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:23,040 Speaker 1: up to recall Ted Wheeler, how you can sign your 1238 01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:25,920 Speaker 1: name on that, or even volunteer your time. UH. If 1239 01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:28,680 Speaker 1: you might want to donate, also total recall pdx dot 1240 01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:33,680 Speaker 1: com you can do it there. So UM, Ted Wheelers 1241 01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:35,720 Speaker 1: not connected directly to any of this. But he does 1242 01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:39,160 Speaker 1: suck and this sucks too, So I don't know. That's well, 1243 01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:41,680 Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of it's it's hard to uh, 1244 01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:44,960 Speaker 1: people that want to infiltrate and get into elected positions. 1245 01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:48,240 Speaker 1: It's kind of hard to fight against that when the 1246 01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:51,800 Speaker 1: mayor is someone like Ted Wheeler. Yeah, I mean, it 1247 01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,760 Speaker 1: doesn't make it harder to deal with. It's all of 1248 01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:57,840 Speaker 1: the problems we have where the elected leaders that aren't 1249 01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:03,800 Speaker 1: weird cultists with dangerous male supremacist ideas are also incompetent. Yeah, 1250 01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:05,680 Speaker 1: if you'd like to take a shot at someone that 1251 01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:10,080 Speaker 1: is a successful politician and that he knows how to 1252 01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:13,120 Speaker 1: get and keep power, but is incompetent in anything else, 1253 01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:16,240 Speaker 1: you know, take it out on Ted Wheeler today. Take 1254 01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:20,320 Speaker 1: it out on Ted Wheeler today. Uh, and take it 1255 01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:23,120 Speaker 1: out on I don't know, I don't know what. Don't 1256 01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:25,520 Speaker 1: take other things out on other people. Be nice to 1257 01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:27,240 Speaker 1: the other people around you, be nice to everyone, but 1258 01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:31,600 Speaker 1: Ted Wheeler and fucking Bill Gothard, And take it out 1259 01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:36,200 Speaker 1: it being the trash for your friends, because that's nice, 1260 01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:39,000 Speaker 1: Because that is nice. Yeah, take out the trash, and 1261 01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:40,600 Speaker 1: then you know, once it's out of your house. You 1262 01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:44,520 Speaker 1: can throw it anywhere. It doesn't matter. Yea, yeah, that's ethical, 1263 01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:50,320 Speaker 1: I think. All right, that's the episode