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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily and this is Bridge and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to stufh Mom, never told you so, Bridget how

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Speaker 1: you doing today? I'm doing good, full disclosure. I'm fighting

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Speaker 1: off a bit of a cold weekend full of shouting

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Speaker 1: and throat clearing. So off my voice party. So my

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Speaker 1: voice sounds a little bit um raspy, sounds like Kathleen

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Speaker 1: Turner kind of smoking. That's why sounds cigarettes this time exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's good. So this is the authentic way party. Your

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Speaker 1: face off is what we're saying right now. Whatever that

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Speaker 1: means to you. Dancing on tables encouraged. So we've got

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Speaker 1: a topic today. We've got a hell of a topic.

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Speaker 1: It's got a hell of a topic. Um, I don't

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Speaker 1: even know if I should really say why. This is

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Speaker 1: a topic that's sort of near and dear to me.

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Speaker 1: But I have a close friend, a close friend of

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Speaker 1: many many years. Um, we have kind of drifted apart.

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Speaker 1: He is someone who I'm pretty solidly on the left

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Speaker 1: when it comes to politics, and he is really I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you've noticed, I'm a pretty liberal. He's

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Speaker 1: a little bit just sort of I don't even know

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Speaker 1: what you would call him. A little bit like Libertarian

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Speaker 1: off the Grid and he you were talking to me

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Speaker 1: about this article that I read and Reason about how

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Speaker 1: young men in their twenties and thirties more and more

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Speaker 1: of them are not working and just sort of playing

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Speaker 1: video games all day, and which to me sounded, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like you think that's I thought you were like over

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Speaker 1: emphasizing the video game thing like this sounded like a

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Speaker 1: stereotype that correct. I was immediately defensive over when we

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Speaker 1: first started talking about this, right, It's like, this isn't real.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly what I thought. I thought, you know, this

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Speaker 1: is some anecdotal like like they're saying like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe young men are just in their basements playing video

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Speaker 1: games mom's basement, and which sounds it sounds absurd, or

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Speaker 1: it just sounds made up. It sounds like a very

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Speaker 1: easy trope. But actually the research according to this this

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Speaker 1: article and Reason really bears that out that more and

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Speaker 1: more men are are dropping out of the workforce, more

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Speaker 1: and more of them are living at home or with

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Speaker 1: a family member, and more and more of them are

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Speaker 1: spending their time on what they call leisure activities, which

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Speaker 1: includes video games. Um, and what I thought was fascinating

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Speaker 1: is that these guys. You might think like, oh, if

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Speaker 1: that was your situation, you'd be really sad and broken

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Speaker 1: up about it. But actually these guys are self reporting

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Speaker 1: higher levels of happiness and you know, satisfaction in their

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Speaker 1: situations than previously unemployed men. So basically, young men are

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Speaker 1: a certain section of young men are staying home, living

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Speaker 1: with mom and dad more and playing more video games

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Speaker 1: and sort of in a kind of way, dropping out

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Speaker 1: of society. But they're cool with it. And there's a

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Speaker 1: very political and gender component to this. Correct, And this

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Speaker 1: is this is known but as their acronym, right, men

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Speaker 1: going their own way? How do you how? That's how

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Speaker 1: YouTubers are talking about it. That's how I would have

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Speaker 1: thought it was men going their own way, Which sounds great, right,

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Speaker 1: do your thing, you but when you when you dive

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Speaker 1: into the weeds about it, it has it's it's very

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Speaker 1: much tied to a feminist backlash. Right, These are men

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Speaker 1: who see society as no longer really welcoming to them. Correct.

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Speaker 1: And so whereas these guys who aren't working and like

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Speaker 1: playing video games and mom, mom and Dad's basement, they're

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Speaker 1: the guys who are going their own way, are sort

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Speaker 1: of taking that idea a step further, saying we are

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Speaker 1: turning our backs on society. Feminists have made society a

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Speaker 1: living nightmare for you know, your average red blooded American male. Therefore,

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Speaker 1: we are turning our backs on it. We don't they're

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Speaker 1: not engaging in any relationships, right, I don't jump on

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Speaker 1: you there no. Part of part of their their ethos

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Speaker 1: is explicitly do not have relationships with women. And it's

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Speaker 1: interesting because you know, as people, as humans, we have

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Speaker 1: a lot of us have sex drives, and so they

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Speaker 1: have found all these ways to get around that where

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Speaker 1: they will have one night stands or use sex workers,

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Speaker 1: or they talk a lot on the forums about masturbating

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Speaker 1: and sort of how they have used different ways of

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Speaker 1: getting around not of not having to have a relationship

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Speaker 1: with a woman, but still be sexually satisfied. Right as

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Speaker 1: I was reading up on this, I found myself so speechless.

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Speaker 1: I really didn't know how I was going to have

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Speaker 1: a conversation about it, because it is this is a philosophy.

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Speaker 1: This is a strident philosophy that's like sort of an

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Speaker 1: extreme part of the men's rights movement. Correct. What's interesting

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Speaker 1: is that so it's very similar to the men's rights

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Speaker 1: movement and that it came from this this um visceral

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Speaker 1: disdain for feminism. But it's different in that, you know,

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Speaker 1: whereas men's rights followers they might think of themselves as

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Speaker 1: pushing back against feminism and what they see as unfair

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Speaker 1: gender norms or what have you, via activism and things

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Speaker 1: like that, people who follow men going their own way,

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Speaker 1: they're reacting to that by just dropping off of society

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Speaker 1: saying no thanks, done to engage with the female population,

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Speaker 1: explain and simple. And what I find interesting is this,

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Speaker 1: and I have to I have to first say, having

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Speaker 1: fallen down the rabbit hole that is YouTube videos from

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Speaker 1: the Bigtow community and the reddit threads on the tail,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh. So I have to acknowledge that this

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Speaker 1: is a philosophy of which there's a broad spectrum of subscribers. Right,

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Speaker 1: so there are people who I think women are. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's more of the benevolent sexist involved in Bigtow that thinks,

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Speaker 1: you know, this society needs to somehow cherish women, but

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Speaker 1: that's not their role, right that that women have gone

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Speaker 1: in a different have become that society has become mainstream

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Speaker 1: feminized right, and they want they want to return to

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Speaker 1: men are masculine, women are feminine, and that's what here's

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Speaker 1: what that means, what's right. And then there's also the

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Speaker 1: more extreme, very violent sounding wing of subscribers of this

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Speaker 1: philosophy who think women are evil. They are sucky buses

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Speaker 1: that want to drain you of your resources, and that

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Speaker 1: is their only purpose in life, is to ruin your lives.

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Speaker 1: Like a lot of it sounds like the projection of

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Speaker 1: past pain through heartache or breakups or watching, you know,

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Speaker 1: family dynamics in their own home. I've heard a lot

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Speaker 1: of MiG Tao YouTubers talk about their their upbringing being

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Speaker 1: um having reflected this role of woman as the woman

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Speaker 1: who has taken freedom, money, and love away from the

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Speaker 1: father figure in the life these people and I do not.

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Speaker 1: I don't feel like we have a very We don't

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Speaker 1: have a lot of overlaps in our political ideology, I

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Speaker 1: would imagine. But I found myself sort of feeling sorry

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Speaker 1: for some of them. When you look at the posts

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Speaker 1: that are on the Reddit community, for instance, a lot

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Speaker 1: of them are angry and violent, but a lot of

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Speaker 1: them are just really sad. It's a lot of men hurt.

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Speaker 1: It's a lot of men describing, you know, relationships gone

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Speaker 1: bad where women have mistreated them in a relationships, cheated

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Speaker 1: on them, they're paying alimony, you know, they're paying for

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Speaker 1: a kid, they're not sure, it's there's it's these really

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Speaker 1: these stories that really just really sounds sad um, you know.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things I found very interesting is

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Speaker 1: that it's so easy, Like I can easily imagine having

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Speaker 1: a person or a gender or something to blame all

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Speaker 1: my problems on, and you know, my relationship that fell apart,

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Speaker 1: or my my partner who treated me badly, or you know,

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Speaker 1: all of that. If I could blame it on you know, women,

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Speaker 1: I could see that being very seductive. I could do

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Speaker 1: that being a ideology that would be easy to fall into. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And what I found surprising is when I was doing

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Speaker 1: the research around this podcast, it's not just the sexual

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Speaker 1: politics here of like women as being these alluring, evil

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Speaker 1: seductresses who wanna, you know, just get you to put

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Speaker 1: a ring on it and then drain you of all

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Speaker 1: your resource is. And so men should resist the sexual

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Speaker 1: sort of attraction that women are putting out there because

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Speaker 1: it's all a trick. It's all of guys, but also

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Speaker 1: what you opened the episode with is that undercurrent of

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Speaker 1: real economics that do not definitely, especially working class men

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Speaker 1: very well nowadays. Absolutely so, I have to say one

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Speaker 1: of the articles that I read when I was doing

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Speaker 1: this research for this show was from a source that

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Speaker 1: I I honestly cannot bad mouthful enough. They're awful and

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Speaker 1: don't read them, but they're terrible Bright Bart such trash,

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Speaker 1: which is now in the White House. Correct that is

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Speaker 1: that is a Steve Bannon, former head of bright bart

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Speaker 1: Man who championed in UM the harassment of folks like

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Speaker 1: Leslie Jones on Saturday Night Live by that awful guy

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Speaker 1: Milo things like that. So so really a terrible, terrible outlet,

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Speaker 1: but they were one of the first outlets to really

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Speaker 1: talk about UM this trend with men, and they called

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Speaker 1: it the sextus. In this article on bright bart one

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Speaker 1: of the things that I actually, as awful as they are,

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Speaker 1: one thing that I have to say I kind of

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Speaker 1: identified with or that resonated with me is this idea

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Speaker 1: that we're not we're not dealing with boys in a

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Speaker 1: way that is helping them grow into successful, well rounded,

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Speaker 1: healthy adult men and economically viable and competitive men, writ

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Speaker 1: large exactly and it starts, and you know what's crazy

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Speaker 1: is that that bright Bart article reminded me of the

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Speaker 1: Atlantic magazines Hannah Rosen The End of Men, the End

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Speaker 1: of Men. So she writes this book, The End of Men,

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Speaker 1: which comes from and I want you to talk more

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Speaker 1: about that bright Bart article, but I have to just

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Speaker 1: plug here that this same argument is being made with

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Speaker 1: very but drawing very different conclusions. That our society, from

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Speaker 1: grade school on up, is in some ways economically transitioning

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Speaker 1: from an economy that used to reward strong, burly men

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Speaker 1: who could make a middle class living through things like

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Speaker 1: trucking and manufacturing and all the things that don't run

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Speaker 1: wants to bring back from the past. They used to

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Speaker 1: enable blue collar men to bring home the bacon and

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Speaker 1: fill that traditional gender role. We have now shifted slowly

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Speaker 1: but towards a service based economy that rewards empathic leadership,

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Speaker 1: that rewards collaboration and communication. And our education system has adjusted,

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Speaker 1: you know, respectively, which tends to reward the kinds of

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Speaker 1: little kids that can sit quietly and be nice to

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Speaker 1: each other and be kind and be empathic. And that

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Speaker 1: just turns out tends to be at large a female

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Speaker 1: or or you know, woman like, girl like human being totally.

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Speaker 1: Those are definitely qualities that we associate with women and

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Speaker 1: little girls. And so what I was thinking that I thought, well, gee,

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Speaker 1: our women really sort of better at these things? Or

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Speaker 1: is that just what we say because you know gender roles.

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Speaker 1: But actually they've done studies and so there was one

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Speaker 1: study pretty recently by the Hay Group division of corn Ferry,

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Speaker 1: and they indicated that women are eight percent more likely

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Speaker 1: than men to be seen as consistently emotionally competent. Eighteen

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Speaker 1: point four percent of women dead and strate the competency

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Speaker 1: consistently compared to just nine point nine percent of men. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and so, and women are forty five percent more likely

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Speaker 1: than men to be seen as demonstrating empathy consistently. And so, really,

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Speaker 1: what it is is that women and girls are being

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Speaker 1: taught the value of what they call soft skills communicating,

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Speaker 1: working in a team, having a positive attitude, listening skills.

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Speaker 1: These are not skills that, for whatever reason, men are

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Speaker 1: are are for internalizing the way that women are. Women

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Speaker 1: are ahead of ahead of men in this in this regard.

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Speaker 1: And so if we are switching to an economic system

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Speaker 1: that really, you know, prizes these things, and we in

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Speaker 1: fact are because if you look at the statistics, employers say,

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Speaker 1: you know, sought skills are just as important, if not

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Speaker 1: more than having hard skills like knowing how to you know,

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Speaker 1: do this or do that. And so these men, I

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Speaker 1: think can be I don't think that we're preparing men

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Speaker 1: to thrive in our society, and I think that they

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Speaker 1: this is gonna be thought of as a reaction to

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Speaker 1: that and feeling really marginalized and so isolated. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: this is straight out of Hannah Rosen's original article The

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Speaker 1: End of Men in The Atlantic Magazine. She says, man

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Speaker 1: has been the dominant sex since well the dawn of mankind,

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Speaker 1: but for the first time in human history, that is changing,

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Speaker 1: and with shocking speed. Cultural and economic changes always reinforce

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Speaker 1: each other, and the global economy is evolving in a

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Speaker 1: way that is eroding the historical preference for male children worldwide.

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Speaker 1: So people used to somehow politically unabashedly say that they

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Speaker 1: prefer men or little boys, and that has become like

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Speaker 1: that is the retroactive sort of pendulum swing has gone

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Speaker 1: in the opposite direction. And so all of these alt

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Speaker 1: writers and men's rights activists and MiG Tao folks are screaming,

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Speaker 1: you know, the PC police have turned our society upside down,

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Speaker 1: and feminism is aggressive and angry towards men, and extreme

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Speaker 1: radical feminists have ruined our ability as men to be

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Speaker 1: spected and treated right. And this is this is like

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Speaker 1: a fascinating underground look at how the Migtao community sees

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Speaker 1: their role as opting out, you know, in this society.

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Speaker 1: I'm out and it actually, when I was starting to

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Speaker 1: read our notes though this, I was reminded of the

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Speaker 1: moment that I decided I was going to break up

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Speaker 1: with an old boyfriend of mine, a college age boyfriend

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Speaker 1: of mine, and I wonder what he would think of

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Speaker 1: MiG tao. I wish I could talk to him about it,

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Speaker 1: but then again maybe, But we were on a cross

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Speaker 1: country road trip with a girlfriend of mine from college,

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Speaker 1: my boyfriend at the time, and another guy friend of ours,

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Speaker 1: so it was four of us, and so as him

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Speaker 1: and his fraternity brother in the front seat, and it

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Speaker 1: was me and this other girl who was a college

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Speaker 1: age girl who was my classmate at the time and

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Speaker 1: my teammate at the time, And I remember us looking

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Speaker 1: at each other in the back seat as the guys

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Speaker 1: were talking about their love of video games and listen,

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Speaker 1: there's no the wrong with a good video game, right.

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Speaker 1: I played D sixty four like any true blooded millennial

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Speaker 1: American myself. But they talked about this fantasy that they

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Speaker 1: were talking about, like, I wish we could go back

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Speaker 1: to the good old days of I think they were

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Speaker 1: putting this in the reference of summer vacation because we

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Speaker 1: were on a road trip in the summer pre college

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Speaker 1: year three or four. Ah, and they said, I just

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Speaker 1: wish that I could like play video games all day

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Speaker 1: and then someone could just like spoon feed me as

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Speaker 1: I continue to play video games. So not only is

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Speaker 1: that hard, like so disturbing on so many levels, but

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Speaker 1: it really it underscores the recent article that we opened

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Speaker 1: the show with, because that's exactly what like in my mind,

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Speaker 1: that sounds horrible and pathetic and sad. Yes, these guys,

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Speaker 1: it's for them. They are reporting that that is the

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Speaker 1: dream that they are the society. And what's interesting about

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Speaker 1: this article, I mean, I don't know. I I shared

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Speaker 1: it with a friend who was an avid gamer, the

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Speaker 1: friend I described earlier, um and he had issues with it,

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Speaker 1: and so know I'm no gaming expert. Do not write

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Speaker 1: in if you're what I'm about to say is not correct,

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Speaker 1: because oh god, I meant to I'm about to get

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Speaker 1: like but no, I mean they they interview these um,

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Speaker 1: these well known video game developers in the article, and

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Speaker 1: they talk about the ways that video games have gotten

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Speaker 1: to be very, very complex, and that they do they

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Speaker 1: do take more time to complete, and like some of

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Speaker 1: them are expansive. We're part of the game is just

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Speaker 1: exploring this vast universe, and that's part of the game.

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Speaker 1: So you know, when I was younger, you think of

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Speaker 1: a video game, is you know, you Mario, can't you

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Speaker 1: save the Princess? Maybe you know my brother could beat

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Speaker 1: Mario when we were growing up, like very quickly, like

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Speaker 1: in an afternoon. Some of these games take seventy hours

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Speaker 1: to even complete. And it's like things like that where

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Speaker 1: it's not surprising to me that that feels like a

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Speaker 1: decent way to list. It's an alternate reality in the

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Speaker 1: literal sense, and they're really brilliant people whose jobs are

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Speaker 1: to make this alternate reality as amazing and as cool

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Speaker 1: as possible, even cooler, one might say, than the real world.

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Speaker 1: If you're coming from this perspective. And I remember that

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Speaker 1: moment when I was listening to these two guys talk,

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Speaker 1: one of whom I was dating at the time, and

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Speaker 1: I just looked at them. I was like, are you

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Speaker 1: talking about a mom? Is that what you're talking about?

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Speaker 1: You want a mom to spoon feed you? Well, I

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Speaker 1: think he was talking about it this like future ideal

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Speaker 1: girlfriend of it's not me, This was not this was

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Speaker 1: the friend. But I was just like, is that really

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Speaker 1: appealing to you? And we had just come from his

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Speaker 1: parents house and his mom had prepared this amazing spread

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Speaker 1: of delicious cuisine from their country of origin. We had

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Speaker 1: this amazing, delicious meal. But and and and then we

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Speaker 1: left the house and they were fantasizing about being able

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Speaker 1: to play video games and just have a mother like

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Speaker 1: figure spoon feed them. And I was like, I turned

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Speaker 1: to my girlfriend in the back and I had tears

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Speaker 1: streaming down my face. And I've got like six more

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Speaker 1: days in the car with these two, and I am

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Speaker 1: breaking up with my boyfriend. I just decided not bear

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Speaker 1: witness to that agreement that that would be a cool

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Speaker 1: way to go on with your life, because I viscerally

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Speaker 1: reacted totally. And I think that's so that that might

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Speaker 1: be something that is like rooted in our experiences as

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Speaker 1: man and women, right, because this article really drives home

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Speaker 1: the fact that these guys are happy about this is

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Speaker 1: what they're doing with their lives. And you know, if

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Speaker 1: you're not work anger, if you're under employee, video games

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Speaker 1: can offer a kind of mimicry of work life where

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Speaker 1: you have to complete task road activity exactly and then exactly.

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Speaker 1: And so it's part of me when you said that

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Speaker 1: it's that sounds awful, but also I can kind of

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Speaker 1: understand it. Well, it makes you, God, we're gonna get

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Speaker 1: so much game or hate on this, but it makes

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Speaker 1: you realize why the public streaming of video gameplay and

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Speaker 1: why people would watch other people playing video games because

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Speaker 1: it is excelling in that own in that domain. And

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Speaker 1: to someone who's not into gaming, I might think like, wow,

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Speaker 1: that feels like a waste of time. But I know

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Speaker 1: that that's just my judgment and my values that are

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Speaker 1: being that I'm sort of bringing to bear on that.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's it's really kind of a stretch.

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Speaker 1: It's been a stretch at least for me ver to

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Speaker 1: try to wrap my head around this and hopefully come

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Speaker 1: at this topic with some empathy because it's concerning. I

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Speaker 1: find it really concerning that I want these young men

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Speaker 1: just as much as I want young women to be

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Speaker 1: able to thrive in our total real society and to

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Speaker 1: have a sense of belonging in love, which I think

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Speaker 1: all people really should have. And yeah, I mean I

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Speaker 1: I completely agree. Part of me in reading up about this,

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Speaker 1: it just made me very very sad, and so I

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Speaker 1: think one of the things that we should really dive

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Speaker 1: into is the sort of organizing principles of this lifestyle,

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Speaker 1: which I think that we should do. After a quick break,

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Speaker 1: so we were just talking about men going their own

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Speaker 1: way and the ways that men are sort of finding

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Speaker 1: various ways to drop out of society, whether it's via

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Speaker 1: not working and playing video games all day, or it's

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Speaker 1: apprestly you know, shutting women. Uh So, men going their

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Speaker 1: own way they have this, it's it's a loose sort

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Speaker 1: of term, but they do have a guiding set of

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Speaker 1: principles that they call levels. And so if you want

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Speaker 1: to be a very successful follower of men going their

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00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,919
Speaker 1: own way, here's what you got. Sorry, can we just

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Speaker 1: identify the irony here of this duality between going your

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Speaker 1: own way and they're being prescribed rules how to do.

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Speaker 1: If you're really going your own way, shouldn't you be

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Speaker 1: shouldn't you be making that way on your own without bizarre?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I get what they're actually doing is they're

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Speaker 1: organizing a community because people need connection. You hear that

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Speaker 1: Mick Tow's you need connection, And it's obvious because people

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Speaker 1: are doing it, they're connecting online. But I find it

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00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:50,080
Speaker 1: really ironic that this this idea of like shunning society's

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Speaker 1: expectations of what it means to be a man, and

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Speaker 1: like opting out means let's all opt out together in

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Speaker 1: the same exact way. Yeah, yeah, that is a cultural irony.

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Speaker 1: But I just head point yeah, no, good flag. So

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Speaker 1: let's talk about these levels. So level on level zero

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Speaker 1: is just basic situational awareness around gender. You've taken quote

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Speaker 1: the red pill, and if you don't know what that means,

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Speaker 1: we'll get into it in a second. You've embraced the

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Speaker 1: idea that gender equality it's just propaganda and a lie. Um.

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Speaker 1: Then you move up to level one, and that is

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Speaker 1: rejection of long term relationships, and so that means, you know,

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Speaker 1: you might have a short term relationship, Um, but you're

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Speaker 1: not going to have, you know, a long term girlfriend

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Speaker 1: or or female partner. And I was listening to some

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Speaker 1: MiG Tau's the mayor of MiG Taos on YouTube, and

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Speaker 1: he was discussing the sweet spot for short term relationships,

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Speaker 1: which is dump them after about three months when they

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Speaker 1: stop like putting out. That's that's what he was saying,

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Speaker 1: us saying, women put out as much as they'll ever

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Speaker 1: put out in the first three months of dating because

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Speaker 1: they're trying to woo you. They're trying to make you

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Speaker 1: fall in love with them, like the evil sucubus women

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Speaker 1: that they are. So after three or four months, that's

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Speaker 1: when you should always break up with all women. That

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00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 1: was his philosophy on that first I have so many questions,

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Speaker 1: like how did they crunch the numbers on that, like three?

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Speaker 1: Where is that three? Like what is that three month

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00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,359
Speaker 1: figure coming from? I'm very curious. Nothing. Yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: based on nothing, I'm sure. So that's good to know

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Speaker 1: what you called it, like the honeymoon face. What do

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00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,959
Speaker 1: you know you've you've got honeymoon face. But isn't it

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Speaker 1: mildly sociopathic to be like, have a relationship but not

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Speaker 1: more than three months. Like take these women who have

399
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,640
Speaker 1: invested some time in you, and you've like, you've got

400
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,399
Speaker 1: to have some emotional investment, maybe not to hang out

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Speaker 1: with someone for three months and not and then an

402
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:46,440
Speaker 1: emotional attachment. Then there's really nasty rhyming words around blank

403
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,239
Speaker 1: and dump women Like this is this philosophy of like

404
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,200
Speaker 1: shunning long term relationships, But it doesn't mean you can't

405
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Speaker 1: have you know, sex with them and then drop it

406
00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 1: like it's hot ghosting cultures. So then once you've, once

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00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,359
Speaker 1: you've mastered the art of you know, dating women for

408
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 1: three months and then dumping them, then you move on

409
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 1: to level three and that's economic disengagement. And so I

410
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 1: think what's interesting about that is it really plays into

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Speaker 1: just what we were talking about before, sort of recognizing

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00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 1: the ways that this this movement is grounded in a

413
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,400
Speaker 1: kind of economic politics and not just gender politics. So

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Speaker 1: the economic disengagement level means that a member at this

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00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,199
Speaker 1: stage refuses to earn more money that is necessary for

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Speaker 1: sustaining life, He views government as tyrannical and is actively

417
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 1: trying to drain money from bureaucrats, and so another hallmark

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Speaker 1: of this lifestyle is this sort of limited government libertarian

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Speaker 1: um bent that it has, where you know, I make

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Speaker 1: money to sustain myself and then none of that money

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00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 1: can be taken by anybody, whether it's a you know, scheming,

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Speaker 1: a scheming succubus female or the government. It's kind of

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00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,679
Speaker 1: aligned with this idea that affirmative action is anti men

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Speaker 1: and anti white, sort of seeing any government program are

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00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 1: wealth redistribution and that you are the agent of your

426
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 1: own life. It's an extreme libertarian view which says I'm

427
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 1: going to earn enough money for me, but not for

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00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 1: anyone else, and I'm not gonna even if someone does

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Speaker 1: earn their own money or stand on their own feet

430
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 1: like some of the big taus I was listening to

431
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 1: UH and reading up on on YouTube and read it.

432
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 1: You know, they say I'm not going to pay for

433
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 1: anything for anyone else. It's like this lack of um dependency,

434
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 1: Like it's almost not just a fear of it's like

435
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,919
Speaker 1: not just a phobia of, but like a refusal to

436
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: be involved in any dependent relationship, right, and like a

437
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 1: hostility toward relationships that are that are that way, right, Yeah,

438
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 1: which were curious really relationships period, which some of the

439
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: debate online was around, and I'm curious to hear from

440
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 1: men who are listening who like, there's this underlying assumption

441
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,719
Speaker 1: in all of the big Tau philosophy that I've been

442
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 1: reading up on that says anyone who wants to be

443
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,120
Speaker 1: in a relationship or wants to have a child must

444
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: be female. Underlying assumption that men are never voluntarily engaging

445
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 1: in child rearing or procreation or relationships. And that is

446
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: my mind. It's mind boggling. And it also to me,

447
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 1: goes against one of the sort of arguments or or

448
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 1: or chief complaints that a lot of men's rights folks

449
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 1: make that like in in custody situations, perhaps that our

450
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 1: court systems are biased towards women, and so a lot

451
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 1: of men's rights activists probably rightly like I had, I

452
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 1: did some preliminary research on this and found a lot

453
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 1: of studies that say, like, conflicting things, but it does

454
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 1: seem like our court system, just anecdotally, I can confirm,

455
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: seems to be biased towards the woman, and a lot

456
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: of men are pushing back against that and saying no,

457
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 1: like I want to have my kids, I want to

458
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: raise my kids. I want to be around my kids,

459
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 1: and so that does seem to be a strange. Yeah,

460
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 1: there's an understandable reaction here from the world that you

461
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 1: know on the whole. Obviously, every pretty much every other

462
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: episode talks about how, uh, the fight for women's equality

463
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 1: still has a long way to go. But that doesn't

464
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 1: mean there aren't ways in which men are wrongfully discriminated

465
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 1: against totally parts of our society. I think paternity law

466
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 1: is definitely a part of that, or or alimony and

467
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: looking closer at child custody battles, definitely there's some arguments

468
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,199
Speaker 1: to be made there. Yeah, And I think when you

469
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: think about things like how domestic violence when when men

470
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,959
Speaker 1: are victims, or rape when when men are victims, I mean,

471
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: it's still a trope in our popular culture where men

472
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: being raped is supposed to be funny, and it's it's

473
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 1: not funny like that, that's not a joke. And I

474
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,400
Speaker 1: think we ask why we have this stigma against rape

475
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 1: victims in general, but particularly male rape victims. And you know,

476
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: when their stories about you know, an older female teachers

477
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 1: sleeping with like a young man, there's always someone who's like, oh,

478
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: she must be having a great time, and it's like, no,

479
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 1: those kinds of attitudes are really making it hard for

480
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: male rape victims to speak up. And so I think

481
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: that there are ways that men are treated unfairly in society,

482
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: and I think we should be talking about those. But

483
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: in my mind, I think that there's no reason why.

484
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: I mean, if if as a feminist, if I want

485
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: to smash the patriarchy, that, in my mind that fits

486
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: under it's a big tent, right, And if I want

487
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: to smash the patriarchy, that will help men get free

488
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: to And so the patriarchy makes victims of us, all right,

489
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 1: like women aren't. It's not great for women, it's not

490
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: great for a man. Nobody is winning under the patriarchy.

491
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: And so if our if our goal is to get

492
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: rid of it and have more flexibility around gender roles

493
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: and who can do what and and how genders are treated,

494
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: then surely men will be better off. Isn't it funny

495
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: that to borrow a term like what we're really trying

496
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 1: to do by getting rid of patriarchy and patriarchal structures

497
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 1: that limit gender roles is enabled both men and women

498
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: to go their own way. Really what it's all about?

499
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 1: So I think it's I mean, I would love to

500
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: see a live debate between like MiG tail men's rights feminists,

501
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 1: like on stage, like that should be a thing that happened,

502
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: because I would too. I think some extreme empathy here

503
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 1: can go a really long way, and that there are

504
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,360
Speaker 1: ways in which men and women are both prejudiced against

505
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: in our society. And I'm thinking of an Audrey Lord

506
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: quote here. I think, who says, let's see, I am

507
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: not free while any woman is unfree. That's what it is,

508
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,959
Speaker 1: even when her shackles are very different from him. And

509
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: so you can take that take you know, she slash

510
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: he there, you know, take the gender frame out of it.

511
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: But really, gender roles are constraining for both men and women,

512
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: and going your own way makes sense in a society

513
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: that prescribes very stringent gender roles. But it shouldn't require

514
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: demonizing the entire of the of the world that is

515
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: female or identifies as female. Right, And I think that there,

516
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: I mean to quote Bell Hooks, feminism is for everybody, right,

517
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: Like feminism, I think I see feminism as helping men. Yeah,

518
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: I think it helps everybody. Right. There's I feel like

519
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: there's no one who is who is not well served

520
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: when we have a wider understanding of gender roles and

521
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: we are sort of more free to be ourselves. I

522
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: can't agree more. I'm just cracking up thinking about a

523
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: Make Tow subscribing person. Listen to us quote Bell Hooks

524
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: and Audrey Lord. We all agree we're at that page. Well,

525
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: something that I found fascinating about that. I mean, it's

526
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: it's funny, but it's also kind of true. There's a

527
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: really great article on the New Statesman a few years

528
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: ago by Laurie Penny that I completely personally identified with

529
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 1: about whether or not women, younger women would be better

530
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: served by kind of purposeful single hood. The article is

531
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: called maybe you Should Just be single, and basically she

532
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: argues that in heterosexual relationships, women are sort of groom

533
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: to do most of the emotional labor in relationships, and

534
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 1: so if you're if you're in a heterosexual relationship as

535
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: the woman, you're the one who is you know, doing,

536
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: if you're not doing most of the child the stuff

537
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: around the house, you are the one who was sort

538
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: of project managing it. So even if your partners helping,

539
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,479
Speaker 1: they're helping because you're saying do this, do that? Do that,

540
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: and that still takes work. You're the one who's clicking

541
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: the meals, You're the one who's remembering the birthday card,

542
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: remembering you know, like at the flowers, what have you.

543
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: And that if you think about all of the time

544
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: that women spend kind of like putting into into into

545
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: relationships in this way that you are a young person

546
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: or a creative person, you actually might be better served

547
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: putting that energy into yourself and saying I'm gonna be

548
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: a writer, I'm gonna be a painter, I'm gonna be

549
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: an activist, I'm gonna be a singer like or I'm

550
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: gonna just work on myself and and and take care

551
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: of myself and so part of me. Maybe this is

552
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: why two sides of the same coin totally. I think

553
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: there's a milder, like less extreme MiG Tao subscriber who says,

554
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm opting out of relationships

555
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: just like you said, level four, opting out of long

556
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: term relationships because I want to focus on myself. And

557
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: I think that's when things get up to level what

558
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: is it, level three economic disengagement and then level four

559
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: to go back to that level when that's when I

560
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: think we go away from the main stream young male

561
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: or female who's like, Yo, let's have casual sex because

562
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: I'm working on my writing career. You know what I mean.

563
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: Isn't that just called being a young emerging adult that

564
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: there's nothing that radical about that? So I think it's

565
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: definitely a spectrum, and it gets weirder. So level four

566
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: is pretty much the most extreme. So when you get

567
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: to level four, they call it societal disengagement. This is

568
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: as far as a mainstream man going his own way

569
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: can go. Here the man refuses to interact with society.

570
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: And I just find that, I mean that is so

571
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: telling that you are the highest level that a man

572
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: can get to. Who is a man going his own

573
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: way is disengaging with society? You you're not like you're

574
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: And I think, yeah, like that being an ideal I

575
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: find fascinating. And that's on their website. Levels. Yeah, so

576
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: this is like I want to know who the cult

577
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: leader is behind this, because that's where idealogue and ideology

578
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: and philosophy turns into a cult. When you're actually actively

579
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: encouraging people to self hard. Social isolation is harmful for

580
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: your mental health. We cover that our first top can

581
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: we be friends? Right? You have to be engaged as

582
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: a human basic needs. So this idea of not just celibacy,

583
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: but disengagement financially, economically, socially from society is a really

584
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: dangerous thing in a world where we still have mostly

585
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: young men getting crazy arming up, locking and loading and

586
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: going out there and shooting a bunch of yeah and

587
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: and something I found really fascinated to kind of build

588
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: out that point again. In the Reason article, this economist

589
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: at George Mason University, Tyler Cowan, makes this point that

590
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: if men, particularly men who are unemployed or underemployed or

591
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: or you know, not educated, if they didn't have things

592
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: like video games or whatever to sort of occupy their time,

593
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: they could be out in the streets causing real chaos.

594
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: And so he says, in terms of behavior and performance,

595
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: variances for men are always higher. That is, men are

596
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: more likely to exhibit extremes of character and behavior, both

597
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: positive and negative. The whole generation of men obsessively playing

598
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,719
Speaker 1: video games during the prime decades of life might not

599
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,719
Speaker 1: be ideal, but most would agree it is preferable to riots.

600
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: And on the one hand, that's kind of scary But

601
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: on the other hand, I mean, is it the worst

602
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: thing in the world. Like, I can sort of understand

603
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: why it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world

604
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: to have men feel the need to drop out of

605
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: society in these various ways, whether it's video games or

606
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,959
Speaker 1: through men going their own way. I still feel like

607
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: that's not great, Like we want to people. But if

608
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: they're underlying life philosophy is that the whole society has

609
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: become what is it, gin centric? Centric, idea centric, y'all. Yeah,

610
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: the idea that like society is just women are ruling everything.

611
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: We're in charge of everything, we make all the rules

612
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: for everything in the direction of that society. Yeah, wouldn't

613
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: I mean, how are we seeing the same world and

614
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: coming to such different conclusions. I don't understand. You know,

615
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: we're running stuff now the world damn said it so

616
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: must be true. So I mean, I think if that's

617
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: their underlying philosophy, then maybe it is better off that

618
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: they're not engaging. Maybe maybe it's better that you're not

619
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: in the dating pool with men who believe that. Yeah,

620
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: I mean, you know that the alternatives I think to

621
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: just sort of shunning society and saying I'm not going

622
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: to be involved in it at all. Are men who

623
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: treat women really badly, men who use women for sex

624
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: under sort of looking forward guys, Yeah, under the guys

625
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: of something else. You know, people like pick up artists,

626
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: people who their whole point is they just wanna, you know,

627
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: have sex with women. And I'm not saying that book

628
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: the pickup artist book, Um do you remember that. It's like, um,

629
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: it got really big when I was in college. Tucker Oh,

630
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: Tucker Max, Tucker Max, And he was like one of

631
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: the loudest, most vocal pickup artists on the Internet in

632
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: early two thousand's. So I think guys liked Tucker Max.

633
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: And the pickup artist sort of world is very active

634
00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: part of the men's rights movement, but do they get

635
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: a long So there's actually a lot of drama between

636
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: the pickup artist world and the men going their own

637
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: way world. Pick Up artists feel that men should be

638
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,479
Speaker 1: sleeping with women, you know, they should not be having

639
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 1: emotional attachments to them, but they do feel like they

640
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: should be having sex with women as many as they can.

641
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: And so pick up artists they see men who are

642
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: men going their own ways as kind of losers who

643
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: are pathetic who are saying. You know, basically, pickup artists

644
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: believe that women having sex with women or getting women

645
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: to have sex with you can be gamified, and that

646
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,959
Speaker 1: men going their own way are too lazy to sort

647
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: of learn learn the compete, to compete exactly. They're like

648
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: losers basically, Yes, yeah, that's interesting how it's funny that

649
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,879
Speaker 1: they see women in the same light of being out

650
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: to get yet exactly, but you know, one type of

651
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: male wants to compete and gamify it and objectify women

652
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: in the process, and one says, no, thank you. This

653
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 1: whole world is stacked against me. It's a very depressing

654
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 1: a way of viewing the world, which is is like

655
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 1: passive not active, like you mentioned the very beginning, there's

656
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 1: no activism here. It's the world is stacked against me.

657
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a dude. All the cards are not

658
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,399
Speaker 1: in my favor, and I'm opting out in this world

659
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: that is oppressing men. And one of the things I

660
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: I that struck me when I was doing like scrolling

661
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: through the men going their way own way communities is

662
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 1: how many men seem to express this kind of almost

663
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: terror around saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong

664
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 1: thing around women and and sort of being like, oh,

665
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to get branded as a creep or a

666
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: rapist or pedophile, pedophile, and and sort of this this

667
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: real anxiety around how to have a healthy relationship with

668
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: a woman and sort of being so scared and kind

669
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: of flummuxed by this that they're like, it's not worth it.

670
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: It's not worth being branded a creep, a pedophile, a rapist.

671
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: It's not worth you know, trying in a society that's

672
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 1: not going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

673
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: I think that's where there's some legitimacy tonists that we

674
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: should talk about when we come back. All right, let's

675
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: take a quick break and we'll be right back with

676
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: more bigtow fun for your listeners. And we're back, And

677
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 1: this has been kind of a mind melter for me.

678
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: This just sort of blew my mind to come to

679
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: find out, um, just how visceral to backlash to gender

680
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 1: equality can be. And we are going to talk in

681
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,919
Speaker 1: a minute about how this is historical and how this

682
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,399
Speaker 1: isn't all that surprising, I suppose, but I think it's

683
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: important that we acknowledge the very real financial crunch that

684
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,879
Speaker 1: young men in particular right now are facing in this

685
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: economy and our witnessing especially in the first five or

686
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 1: so years of their careers, like women outpacing men totally.

687
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: That's especially true for younger women. And you know, when

688
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: you're in your twenty these are the times when you're

689
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: just starting out. This time studies always show this. This

690
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: time is very foundational for for folks in their professional development.

691
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: So if you have a rocky start, you're more likely

692
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: to sort of struggle for longer. But if you start

693
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: out with a college degree, making gains professionally when you're

694
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: in your twenties, like that period is so foundational, and

695
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: we really are seeing Dr Meg j has a great

696
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: ted talk on that how the twenties are not a

697
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: throwaway decade. In fact, it's a really important decade that's

698
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: foundational to relationship building and economic viability, which is complicated

699
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 1: by the fact that women have been earning more undergraduate

700
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: and graduate degrees than young men for almost thirty years now. Yeah,

701
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,760
Speaker 1: women are really outpacing men when it comes to getting

702
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,240
Speaker 1: college degrees and a fetition college. And in this article

703
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: that uh here from Reason dot com, economist Eric Hurst

704
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 1: mentioned that when they started tracking this unemployment and a

705
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 1: lack of sort of professional viability the first start of

706
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: your career among men versus women back in two thousand.

707
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 1: Between two thousand and twenty fifteen, they found the percentage

708
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: of lower skilled men aged one to fifty five who

709
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: had a job dropped from eighty four percent to to

710
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: seventy seven percent, which he said was quote a massive

711
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: change relative to historical levels. So really, just like we

712
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: go back to Hannah Rosen's argument in the End of Men,

713
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: her book, her article in The Atlantic, and you've got

714
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 1: to watch her ted talk. The economic downturn, the Great

715
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: Recession was very hard on men, especially blue collar working classmen,

716
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 1: and he noted that twenty two percent of men in

717
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: their twenties who did not have a college degree in

718
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: two thousand fifteen had not worked a single day during

719
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: the previous year. Wow, fifteen was a rough year for

720
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 1: men in their twenties who left a college degree. And

721
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: if more and more men are are not finishing college

722
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: and more and more women are, you can sort of

723
00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 1: see how that sets into motion this a lie that

724
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: can feel very unfair, where the debt, the death does

725
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 1: seem stacked against you. And then you couple that with

726
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: the rising popularity and mainstream element of feminism right now,

727
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 1: it's a very vocal, general quality movement. That's great. I

728
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: think there's a great component to a lot of that.

729
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: And I can also see how would be very threatening

730
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: to uh working class former coal miner who's been out

731
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: of work and who doesn't have the tools in this

732
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: economy to become a skilled uh laborer in the service

733
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: economy that we now have, you know, thinking take me

734
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 1: back to the to make your America grid again, right

735
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: could now the guards are stacked against me, and I

736
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: don't identify as this being progress. So I just I

737
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: can see the appeal of the Midtown movement um and apparently,

738
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: like you we were talking a little bit off air

739
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: just now, there's a historical coupling between feminisms rise and

740
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: the men's rights backlash. There definitely is. And so I'm

741
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,359
Speaker 1: sure that a lot of these men go their own

742
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: way types probably think this is a brand new thing,

743
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: like they've come up with this exciting new way of

744
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: sticking it to the feminists, But actually men making their

745
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: own counter movements as a response, as a direct response

746
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: to feminist gains, you know, women's rights, those kinds of

747
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: things has a lot of grounding and historical precedent. This

748
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,760
Speaker 1: happens pretty regularly. According to Dr Tristan Bridges, Assistant professor

749
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: of sociology at the College of Brockport, who works on

750
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,919
Speaker 1: a journal called Men Masculinities and Methodologies. She says that

751
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: when we look at the historical record, that that's what

752
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: it shows. Men start to get piste off and want

753
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: to talk about masculinity and change masculinity. Right after that

754
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 1: there's been some sort of transformation and femininity. When these

755
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: kinds of things come up, I think historians would say

756
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: something significant has happened with respect to gender inequality and

757
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: that man are feeling their position of privilege as challenged,

758
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 1: and this is a cultural reaction that takes place after

759
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 1: that happens. And so one of the things they talked

760
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 1: about is UM. In the during the Suffragette movement, they

761
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: had a lot of men's clubs that sprang up in

762
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 1: response to that UM in the eighties and nineties who

763
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 1: had the mytho poetic man's movement that started as a

764
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: response to Second Way feminism and really championed men um.

765
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,359
Speaker 1: So this is not a totally new phenomena, right, And

766
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: this idea that it has a very new life online.

767
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: That's what I think is very unique about this. So

768
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: the whole we mentioned earlier, this idea of red pill

769
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: versus blue pill, that comes straight out of the Matrix,

770
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 1: which if there's any movie that signals the new world

771
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 1: of online reality, it's the Matrix in my opinion. And

772
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: there's also a conspiracy component to that that I think

773
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: is really entasing. So in the movie, right, Neo the

774
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: the main character who has got kind of a god

775
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: complex in this movie anyway, he's definitely the one has

776
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: offered the red pill or the blue pill, and the

777
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 1: red pill is the truth pill, right, the truth like

778
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: you will be here, Yeah, the red pill. If you

779
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: take the red pill, you have So here's here's like

780
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: the actual quote from the movie, you take the red Pill,

781
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 1: I gotta do it in a in a Laurence Fishburg

782
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: voice was like, I don't sound like you take the

783
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 1: red pill. You stay in Wonderland, and I show you

784
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 1: how deep the rabbit hole goes the chosen One, And

785
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 1: so in what they deem is a broken system, they

786
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: the migtaut sort of subscriber is Neo, this person with

787
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: potentially a messiah complex, but in their mind, they're the

788
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: only ones that see the world correctly. They see the light.

789
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: So it does feel like a new movement, even though

790
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: historically men's rights movements have often cropped up as a

791
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 1: reaction to an emerging and changing definition of the female

792
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,439
Speaker 1: role model. But this one feels very different in its

793
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: isolation and its life online. It's it's sort of like

794
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 1: a detachment from the truth that they see this guno

795
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: centric you know what is it, miss Andrey world that

796
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 1: we're living in, and they're opting instead to live a

797
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 1: life of isolation, solitude, anti woman, or sort of just

798
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,720
Speaker 1: opting out of engaging with women for all the problems

799
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: that with that. And one thing I find really interesting

800
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: about that is that when you go to the like

801
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: the reddit subreddit for Men going the Wrong Way, not

802
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: only is it filled with these you know stories that

803
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: I described earlier of men with terrible problems with women,

804
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: but it's also talking about video games, talking about you know,

805
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: like mountain biking. It's it's clearly these are people who

806
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:24,839
Speaker 1: are using online communities too kind of tap it does

807
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: everyone needs social interaction. They're sort of creating their own

808
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: kind of men's only club on places like Reddit, but

809
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: then infusing that with this aspect of like, oh, hey,

810
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: did you guys see the big fight last weekend? Also

811
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: I hate women right Like it's a weird combination of

812
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 1: both kind of normal community building and also anti feminism.

813
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: Sorry you're you're absolutely I'm just so jazzed about this.

814
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: I want to jump in here. Because they would argue

815
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 1: that they don't hate women. They would argue that it's

816
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:56,919
Speaker 1: dangerous to be near women and be involved with women

817
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: because you're going to be accused of rape when you

818
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: didn't do anything wrong, and you're gonna be you're gonna

819
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: end up having to pay child support for a child

820
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: you never consented to have with anybody. You're going to

821
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 1: be called a pedophile if you sit next to a

822
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: kid on an airplane. Like that's the world that they

823
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: see as being dangerous and stacked against them and out

824
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 1: to get them. And so, you know, I think there's

825
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 1: a wide spectrum of sexism that underlies all of that.

826
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 1: Whatever you're basing you know, someone's character on their gender alone,

827
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 1: that that's you know, that's gonna be prejudicial. But I

828
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 1: get it. I I don't know. I just I'm like,

829
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 1: I'm pretty speechless about this topic, even that we just

830
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: talked a lot about it, because I'm left feeling conflicted,

831
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: like do we reach out to the men in our

832
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: lives who we suspect your parts of Like, how have

833
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 1: you dealt with this with your friend? Um? That's a

834
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 1: great question, Um, I think with my friend, and I

835
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: hope he doesn't listen to this. You know, I love you,

836
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: but Stopp's gotten weird. Uh, you know. I think for me,

837
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 1: I just want to remind my friend and all of

838
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: these men that society can be scary, society can be heavy.

839
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: I under I understand, even though I'm like a lefty feminist,

840
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 1: I understand what it feels like to feel like you

841
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 1: don't know how to compete in this world. I understand

842
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: what it feels like to feel like if you say

843
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: the wrong thing, everyone's gonna be calling you were racist

844
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: and trying to get you fired. I understand. I understand that.

845
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 1: I understand that that is scary and big and vast,

846
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: and exploring that can feel like a mind field. I

847
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 1: get that we have a lot of similarities there, and

848
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: that I think that as women and as people of color,

849
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: we often feel that way about society. Society is heavy

850
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: and scary. But you can't just retreat from society like

851
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: you like. We are all in this together. And I

852
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: think when you say, you know, I'm taking my ball

853
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: and going home, that it doesn't work like that. We're

854
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: all in this together. We all get scared, we all

855
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: it's it's it's scary for all of us to explore.

856
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 1: And so if you are listening, my friend out there,

857
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 1: I want you to know that that you're not in

858
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 1: this alone, even though it feels that way, but that

859
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: the answer is not retreating from society. The answer is

860
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: figuring it out together. And to do that we have

861
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: to be we have to stay in society and in

862
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 1: communication with one another, right and we can't and we

863
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: can't assume the worst of each other because there are

864
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: plenty of bad people out there, men and women who

865
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: would want to take you for all your worth. Definitely,

866
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 1: but to say that all women are or all men

867
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: are is not fair either way exactly, or that you

868
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:30,240
Speaker 1: have to, you know, have no contact with women because

869
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 1: of because of that, and I think that you know,

870
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: women listen, it's really here in these streets, women deal

871
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 1: with really scary stuff from men at insane levels every

872
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: day and we're still out there, you know, trying to

873
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: make it work for us. And so there's an element

874
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 1: of being willing to be vulnerable that's essential to relationships

875
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: at large. And I'd say that relationships are worth it.

876
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: At the on our deathbeds, what do we all talk about?

877
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 1: We talked about the people on our lives and spending

878
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 1: more time with them. Nobody wishes they spent more time

879
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: at work. Nobody wishes I would argue that they spent

880
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 1: more time beating that next level in the video game.

881
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 1: Although maybe you know, gamers proved me wrong. But I

882
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,720
Speaker 1: think the relationships in our lives, good, bad, ugly, many

883
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: or few are the foundation to a meaningful life. And

884
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:19,879
Speaker 1: I think that what you just said, just like gave

885
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 1: me chills because when I think about my friend, that's

886
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 1: all I want, and all of these men like like

887
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: I hope, I'm I don't mean to look at these men.

888
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: I want to have empathy for them, and I really

889
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 1: am not trying to make fun of them and be like, oh,

890
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 1: you guys are such losers. And that's how I feel.

891
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: I genuinely it worries me that people are missing out

892
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: and having a full, meaningful life. That includes healthy relationships

893
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 1: that are romantic, that are sexual, that are professional, that

894
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: are social, that are familial, all of them. And it

895
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,319
Speaker 1: makes me sad to think of someone who is so

896
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: afraid and anxious like taking that away from them, because

897
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 1: I think society is better when we're all happy and

898
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: fulfilled and loved. I love it. I think I think

899
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 1: it's real. I think it's it's scary what happens when

900
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 1: we turn away from each other. So like you're saying,

901
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: let's turn towards one another, even when it's real and ugly,

902
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 1: I adore you. Bridget um. Okay, y'all, this was a

903
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 1: weird episode. I think we can all agree this was

904
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 1: weird as hell, So please get weird with us. We

905
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 1: want to hear, we want to hear, we want to hear.

906
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:28,839
Speaker 1: I'm sure our Twitter feeds about to get weird when

907
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 1: this one goes out. So what the hell do y'all

908
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,240
Speaker 1: think about this? Send us a tweet at mom Stuff podcast,

909
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: shoot us a message or post on Instagram and stuff.

910
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: And I've never told you, And as always, you know

911
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 1: we love reading your emails. Hit us up in our

912
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 1: inbox at mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com