1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: On September fourteenth, twenty fourteen, twenty three year old Hannah 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: Witherich and twenty four year old David Miller, who'd only 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: just met by chance on Catau, were talking at the 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: ac Bar. The pair, both from the UK, left the 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: bar together around one am. It was the last time 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: either of them was seen alive. Early the next morning, 7 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: on September fifteenth, a beach cleaner found their partially clad bodies. 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: David was floating in the water, Hannah was found on 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: the sand, the waves lapping over her. Detectives discovered a 10 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: garden hoe covered in blood near their bodies, and autopsy 11 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: revealed that David had scratches on his back and water 12 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: in his lungs, indicating he'd drowned. Hannah's body was covered 13 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: in wounds, bruising, and scratches. Their deaths sparked international outrage 14 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: and question about a lack of justice on Katau. Welcome 15 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 1: to Death Island, a production of Kati's Studios and iHeartRadio, 16 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: Episode eight, The Case of Hannah Withtheridge and David Miller. 17 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 2: I'm Connor Powell, an investigative journalist at kat Studios. With 18 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 2: Stephanie Leidecker, Courtney Armstrong, Andrew Arnow and Jeff Shane. So 19 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 2: it's been a few episodes since we touched on the 20 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 2: murders of Hannah and David on Kotel, but I think 21 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: we need to revisit their deaths because as we've been 22 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 2: working on this and producing this series, some new information 23 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 2: has come in about their deaths, and it has to 24 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 2: do with the DNA evidence that led to the conviction 25 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 2: of Wapo and zeal Lyn. 26 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 3: Two Bummy smigrant workers were arrested in Charshton Friday with 27 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 3: a killing of two British tourists on the Pie island 28 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 3: of Kota. The arrest come amid mounting pressure on police 29 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 3: to solve the murders. Pol have come under international and 30 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 3: domestic scrutiny for their halpisode handling off the kids. 31 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: Both Waypo and Zouln could face death sentences if convicted. 32 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: Veteran international journalist Sarah Yun, who lived on Thailand for 33 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: eight years, reported on the arrest and subsequent trial of 34 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 1: the Burmese immigrants. 35 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 4: The biggest thing we found strange was the size of 36 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 4: these two Burmese men, who were smaller than the normal 37 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 4: Western female maybe five foot three five foot four and 38 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,239 Speaker 4: very small, and given how tall the male victim, David Miller, 39 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 4: it was kind of impossible to believe that these two 40 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 4: men would have overpowered him supposedly during an amorous moment 41 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 4: on the beach and killed him, though the doubt was 42 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 4: being ceded into our mind straight away in the fact 43 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 4: they said they didn't do it. 44 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: According to Tay Police, Waypo and Zoln initially confessed to 45 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: the murders, but some say the interrogation had issues. The 46 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: first potentially problematic part had to do with the interpreters 47 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: that Thai police allegedly hired. 48 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 4: The interpreters for the police, who they said they were 49 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 4: using to talk to Wifo and Zorlin did not speak 50 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 4: any Tie. Their comprehension of Tie was almost incomprehensible, and 51 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 4: they could hardly speak any Burmese. They were pancake vendors 52 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 4: that the police said they'd used to be present during 53 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 4: the interrogation of both men. 54 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 5: What language did they speak? 55 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 4: They speak a dialect, a Burmese dialect which is not 56 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 4: normal common Burmese and which was not what either Wifo 57 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 4: was or Lin spoke interesting, and both Wifo and Orlin 58 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 4: said that the interpreters didn't understand them, and they were 59 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 4: asked to sign all sorts of papers to admit their guilt, 60 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 4: and they didn't know what they were signing, and nor 61 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 4: did their translator. And that the under Thai police law, 62 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 4: a translator in a police station must have a state 63 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 4: recognized certificate, and neither of these two did. 64 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: Arthur and journalist Sue Buchanan lived on Thailand for years 65 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: and wrote the book The Curse of the Turtle, the 66 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: true story of Thailand's backpacker murders. She shares her thoughts 67 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: on the interpreters. 68 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 6: They had two interpreters, one of whom is Rahingi, and 69 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 6: he was a pancake vender. And he doesn't even speak Thai. 70 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 6: I mean when he was giving evidence of their interrogation 71 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 6: at the trial, he himself had to have an interpreter, 72 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 6: so his language skills were useless. I mean, what was 73 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 6: he doing there? This guy's Thai skills were so rubbish 74 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 6: that when he was in court he had to have 75 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 6: his own interpreter. 76 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: Eighteen days after initially confessing to the crime, Zoulin and 77 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 1: Wapo withdrew their confessions. 78 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 6: According to Zorlin's letter, which is here in front of me, 79 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 6: they were just beaten up and attacked and hurt and told, 80 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 6: you know, you have to confess to this. If you 81 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 6: confess to this, you're only do two or three years 82 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 6: in prison. But they had no legal representation. During that interrogation, 83 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 6: the defendants said they were tortured. 84 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 4: They said they had that genitalia was flicked very hard. 85 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 4: They were told that if they didn't agree, they were 86 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 4: going to be put in some rubber tires and the 87 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 4: rubber tires would be set on fire. They were told 88 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 4: they'd be putt in a black bag and towed along 89 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 4: underwater until they were dead. They were flicked on the 90 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 4: ends of their feet. There was a whole list of 91 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 4: things that they said had happened to them. The cellmates 92 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 4: testified to their injuries all over their chest. The police 93 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 4: officer in court, who was asked about this, confirmed that 94 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 4: a doctor had been called for wife foe after his 95 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 4: initial interrogation, that no doctor had ever come forward. The 96 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 4: Human Rights Thailand had summoned the Royal type Police five 97 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 4: times to talk about the potential torture of these two men. 98 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 4: No police officer ever came. According to them. Wifo said 99 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 4: that they told him that no one would care if 100 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 4: he died because he was just another Burmese worker, and 101 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 4: that if he was burned alive, no one would care 102 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 4: and no one would probably know. 103 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: For a couple of years, Tomstone was able to covertly 104 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: film interviews with Waypo and Zalin in prison. He did 105 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: this for his documentary Murder in Paradise. Here he is 106 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: speaking with Connor. 107 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 5: You also interviewed Allen and Wepo in the prison. Talk 108 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 5: about the experience of getting in the prison, but I 109 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 5: also talk about interviewing them and how they responded to 110 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 5: your questions. 111 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 7: So the interview in the prison was too a huge 112 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 7: amount of planning. I've run lots of undercover investigations. I've 113 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 7: got undercover myself, I've sent lots of other people undercover, 114 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 7: and they require really close cooperation from the team on 115 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 7: the ground and a lot of planning in advance. And 116 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 7: you have to go through quite a complicated process in 117 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 7: the UK with your lawyers getting what we call public 118 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 7: interest evidence in advance to justify invading people's to secrecy 119 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 7: and secretly filming them. So long before I have ever 120 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 7: set foot in the prison, I'd already written there twenty 121 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 7: five page document laying out the case, laying out the 122 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 7: areas of concern and why it was justified to take 123 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 7: this risk go into the prison and try to secretly 124 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 7: film them, so that before I even set foot on coach. 125 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,239 Speaker 7: How but on the day of going to the prison, 126 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 7: I was very nerve. I was very apprehensive. It was 127 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 7: high stakes on lots of levels. There was a risk 128 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 7: to me, but in truth, there was a far greater 129 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 7: risk to the translator who was helping me, because if 130 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 7: she had been caught, or I'd been caught with the cameras, 131 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 7: then she would have been almost certainly imprisoned along with me. 132 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 7: And while there would have been lots of people back home 133 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 7: making a great deal of noise about helping to get 134 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 7: me free, I imagine they'd be less for her. But 135 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 7: the people who risk was greatest for were YPO and Zorlin, 136 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 7: because if it was ever perceived that they were somehow 137 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 7: in alliance with us, then they might be an even 138 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 7: greater jeopardy than the potential death sentence that they were facing. 139 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 7: So when I get into the prison, it's very early 140 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 7: in the morning. I've got two secret cameras and they're 141 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 7: sweat rolling down the back of my neck. I find 142 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 7: that there's an incredibly long cue, and I actually miss 143 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 7: the first slot because there's so many people to visit 144 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 7: the prisoners that day. Now that's a big problem because 145 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 7: Secret Filming Kit has a limited battery life. On one 146 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 7: of my devices, it was only forty five minutes. And 147 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,679 Speaker 7: so now I'll have to make this very careful decision 148 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 7: about do I risk going to the loo and trying 149 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 7: to change battery in my device? Will I be spotted 150 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 7: or shall I just risk it and see if it 151 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 7: lasts long. Now, so clock sticking down, I know I'm 152 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 7: going to get into the second session. Eventually, the first 153 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 7: set of visitors leave, and then the door goes back, 154 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 7: and I set off, and I go in with the translator, 155 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 7: and I go down this narrow corridor, and at each 156 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 7: window as I go down, I see people waiting for 157 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 7: their visitors, and eventually I see y Pure and Zorolin. 158 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 7: And so the first thing that strikes me, because I'm 159 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 7: walking down the corridor is that the two Burmese men 160 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 7: are tiny. You know, I'm only five for eight and 161 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 7: they were well under me. And this only might be 162 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 7: an initial impression, but it's very very jarring when you 163 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 7: know the violence of the prime which. 164 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 8: They've been a cute used. 165 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 7: And it is completely at odds with the idea that 166 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 7: they had used a garden hoe to violently kill two 167 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 7: people and rate one of them because they're so small. 168 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 7: And I tried, in the little bit of time that 169 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 7: I had, whilst using a telephone and a translator, to 170 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 7: get through a few crucial things from the case. But 171 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 7: there is nothing like as a journalist seeing these things 172 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 7: for yourself and seeing the whites of someone's eyes when 173 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 7: you put these questions to them. The other thing, in 174 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 7: the limited amount of time I had them, I was 175 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 7: able to get into and which they were willing to 176 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 7: give details on, is they talked about how they were 177 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 7: how they say they were tortured whilst in custody. They 178 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 7: talked about being burnt, they talked about being threatened, and 179 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 7: it sounded it sounded terrifying. 180 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: Tai Police Major General swat Jan Yatsuk refuted the accusations 181 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: that Wapo and Zelln were tortured. Here's a portion of 182 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 1: his audio taken from Tomstone's documentary. 183 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 9: It's not cool. When they are in our custody. We 184 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 9: send them to the hospital to melory. Part of the 185 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 9: record about their physical death. No brus even their statemen 186 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 9: are even asking for any darker. 187 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 7: So can you tell me one hundred percent that neither 188 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 7: Zulin or wi Fo were tortured. 189 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 10: Yeah? 190 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 5: Sure, And they weren't the only ones of the Burmese 191 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 5: community to say that they had been abused while being 192 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,719 Speaker 5: interrogated and asking questions. 193 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 7: Correct, that's right. When the investigation kicked off, you know, 194 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 7: probably a day or so after had a weather Ridge 195 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 7: and David Miller's bodies have been found. The police went 196 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 7: to a well known area on the island. It's clearing 197 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 7: in the middle of some trees where the main part 198 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 7: of the Burmese community is located, and the police have 199 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 7: been accused of intimidating and attacking local Burmese people. One 200 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 7: person we were given provided photos of who had apparently 201 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 7: had boiling water poured on him, and lots of people 202 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 7: were bruised. I was given lots of photographs of bruised 203 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 7: various body parts. I mean it. Accounts that were given 204 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 7: were absolutely appalling, and the overwhelming message from the Burmese 205 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 7: community and their supporters was that they were being skateegated, 206 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 7: that they were a convenient target for this investigation. 207 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: The hacker group, Anonymous obtained footage that appears to be 208 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 1: Thai military police interrogating a Burmese migrant. 209 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 10: Anonymous has learned that the Tye police have accused innocent 210 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 10: people before and would rather blame foreigners or migrants for 211 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 10: such crimes so as to protect their tourism industry. That 212 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 10: here is a quick video of General prey youth Channecker's 213 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 10: military men under him, showing just how much the Taime 214 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 10: military views were Amese migrants. 215 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 5: I'm watching the video now and I'll describe what I'm seeing. 216 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 5: The Burmese migrant is wearing a black and white striped 217 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 5: shirt and is sitting on a rock. A man in 218 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 5: a uniform is punching and kneeing him in the face. 219 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 5: The Burmese migrant worker is putting up only a little 220 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 5: bit of resistance, trying to defend his head from the blows. 221 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 5: There are soldiers standing around laughing, and then there's a 222 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 5: brief pause. They stop for a second, and another one 223 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 5: comes in and kicks the migrant worker in his head. 224 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 5: A third soldier comes in and starts slapping the Burmese 225 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 5: migrant worker in his face, and then all three of 226 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 5: them come in punching, kicking, and slapping him all at 227 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 5: the same time. 228 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,839 Speaker 10: No wonder the time military general blame this crime on migrants. 229 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 10: As mentioned before, it is part of Thai culture to 230 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 10: blame migrants, especially from Burma. 231 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 232 00:12:55,800 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: a moment. Journalist Sarah Yune also interviewed Waypo and Zalin 233 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 1: while they were in prison. 234 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 4: I managed to see them and I asked them, then, 235 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 4: had they carried out this murder that I spoke specifically 236 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 4: to Zorlin, the larger of the two boys, and I 237 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 4: asked him if he'd done it. He said no. He 238 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 4: said they were on the beach that night. He admitted 239 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 4: that they'd been spending It was the payday. They've been 240 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 4: spending the money that they weren't going to send home. 241 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 4: They had a bottle of wine and then he claims 242 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 4: that they went for a swim and then they went 243 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 4: home and they didn't see anything on the beach. Think 244 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 4: so he did look very scared, very nervous. And one 245 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 4: thing he said as I was leaving, he said, I 246 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 4: really can't spend my life in prison. I didn't even 247 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 4: get to sleep with a girl. And I laughed at 248 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 4: him with him at the time and said, you know, 249 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 4: don't worry. I'm sure things will come to light and 250 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 4: you will leave. But then later I thought the strange 251 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:00,959 Speaker 4: thing for a young man to say when he's been 252 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 4: accused of rape and also murder, that his biggest regret 253 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 4: was that he'd never even slept with a girl. They 254 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 4: were very scared, obviously, they wanted messages to get to 255 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 4: their parents, which I did, and then they asked me 256 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,839 Speaker 4: to come back again because they felt like they were 257 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 4: just going to be forgotten now. 258 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: Sarah Yun continued to visit the man while they're waiting 259 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: for the child to begin. 260 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 4: At one point their parents came over, which is an 261 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 4: incredibly sad moment, and I went and spoke to both parents, 262 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 4: who insisted that the boys had absolutely no prior criminal 263 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 4: convictions and they had never done anything like this. Beca 264 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 4: Zorlin's father was very ill and he didn't come, but 265 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 4: Why Foe's father came and he subsequently died while his 266 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 4: songs was still in prison, which is very very sad. 267 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 4: That they cried outside the court for almost an hour 268 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 4: at what was happening to their children and said that 269 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 4: this was not unusual for people from Burma to end 270 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 4: up in these situations, but they were horrified, obviously, But 271 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 4: then it was simply a case of waiting for the trial. 272 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: On July eighth, twenty fifteen, the trial of Zoolin and 273 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: Wpo began. Journalists had difficulty gaining access to the proceedings 274 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: from the start. 275 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 4: Now, what the Ties tried to do to limit international 276 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 4: coverage of this trial was to put it over individual days. 277 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 4: So in one month there might be two days for 278 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 4: them to go to the court, and then the next 279 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 4: month maybe nothing, and then the month after just two 280 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 4: days together, and then the next month just three days. 281 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 5: Is that common in Thai trials or is this unique 282 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 5: to this trial? 283 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 4: I understood from the Thaie reporters who were there it 284 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 4: is not at all common, had never happened before. But 285 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 4: unfortunately for the Thai authorities, I lived ten minutes from 286 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 4: the court. 287 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 3: I mean, it. 288 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 5: Seems like the Thai authorities during the trial are trying 289 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 5: to make it as difficult as possible, and the only 290 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 5: reason to conclude is that they don't really want coverage. 291 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 4: Obviously, as journalist, we try to find some relyable indicator 292 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 4: as to whether the information being presented is true. Or false. 293 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 4: It was very apparent from the first day of the 294 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 4: court case that the police investigation was fulled. 295 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: One of the pieces of evidence presented by the prosecution 296 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: involved David and Hannah's cell phones. 297 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 5: One of the other things that we're trying to sort 298 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 5: of clarify is the issue of Hannah's mobile phone. The 299 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 5: police General Somyacht claimed that investigators found the phone in 300 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 5: Wapo or z Allen's room. But there's a claim that 301 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 5: that phone was turned in by Hannah's friend to the police. 302 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 5: Can you just explain what you understand about the phone. 303 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: Here again, su b Buchanan. 304 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 6: So, first of all, the police said one of the 305 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 6: boys that had Hannah's phone they found it. Now, on 306 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 6: the night of the murders, Zorlin told me that he 307 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 6: and Wapiole were out with Muong Muang. They were all 308 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 6: on the beach Muang Muang or MGMG. He worked at 309 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 6: AC which is Mon's bungalows. He wanted to borrow Zorlan's 310 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 6: motorbike so he could go and visit with his girlfriend. 311 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 6: So way Pur and Zolian were left alone on the 312 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 6: beach when they decided they wanted to go home. He'd 313 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 6: not returned with the motorbike, so they're left with no motorbike. 314 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 6: That they're left with no transport. It was too far 315 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 6: for them to get back to their own area where 316 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 6: the Burmese live and Muang Muang he was living in 317 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 6: accommodation for staff provided by Montuat's bungalows, so they walked 318 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 6: to his bungalow and slept in his bungalow. The police 319 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 6: said they've found Hannah's phone behind that bungalow and someone 320 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 6: had thrown it, and we had like, well, hang on 321 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 6: a minute. We have got photographic evidence of Hannah's pink 322 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 6: phone with Hannah in choppers bar, and there's photographic evidence 323 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 6: of Hannah's travel companions handing that phone into the police, 324 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 6: and we have a picture of that phone on the 325 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 6: police desk, so we're like that this can't be true. 326 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 6: Then they changed their story and said it was David's 327 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 6: mobile that was found behind the bungalow of Mumuang and 328 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 6: not Hannah's phone, so that you know they even got 329 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 6: that wrong. 330 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 5: But one of the two Zelen Or Wapo did admit 331 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 5: to finding David's phone. 332 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 8: Is that correct? 333 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,199 Speaker 6: Yeah, So Waypure said that he found David's phone on 334 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 6: the beach. He picked it up, it was smashed, it 335 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 6: wasn't working. 336 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 5: The Taye police said Zalin and Wapo had intended to 337 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 5: take David Miller's black iPhone four, but later found that 338 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 5: the device couldn't be used in Thailand. Police say they 339 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 5: smashed the phone and discarded it behind their living quarters, 340 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 5: but it's not clear whose living quarters the police are 341 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 5: talking about. In many of the statements, it sounds like 342 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 5: the police are referring to their friend Mau Mause living quarters, 343 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 5: who lived in a bungalow on Mantrawattavichian's property near Sari 344 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 5: Beach Waypo and Zalin they didn't live there. They lived 345 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 5: in a migrant camp far away from the beach area, 346 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 5: but they did spend the night of mal Maos. But 347 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 5: the bigger question is why would Zalin and Wapo smash 348 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 5: the phone and discard it when they could have sold 349 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 5: the phone for at least a month salary, And if 350 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 5: they were concerned about possible incrimination, would they keep it 351 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 5: or discard it anywhere near where they had been. 352 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 6: I don't know whether he's going to try and get 353 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 6: it fixed or sell it or return it to its owner, 354 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 6: you know, but he's never denied having it. Now, if 355 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 6: i'd have murdered somebody, I would deny having their phone. 356 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 6: You know, they don't think they've ever found his fingerprints 357 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 6: on it or anything like that. You know, why would 358 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 6: you admit to having somebody's phone if you'd killed them? 359 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 6: Why would you take their phone if you'd killed them? Like, 360 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 6: if I'm going to kill you, I'm not going to start, 361 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 6: you know, unless I'm a serial killer and I'm looking for, 362 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 6: you know, trophies. I'm not going to start taking your 363 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 6: possessions and then just lobbing them behind my bungalow where 364 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 6: someone could find them. Hey, I wouldn't take them and 365 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 6: be I'm going to dispose of them in a way 366 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 6: no one's ever going to find them and link me 367 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 6: to that crime. 368 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 5: Also, with the phone, it's clearly identifiable to a person, 369 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 5: and it can be tracked through GPS, And I mean, like, 370 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 5: if you're murdering somebody, the phone is like the last 371 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 5: thing you want to be connected to because it can 372 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 5: pinpoint a whole lot of information that you know, would 373 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 5: get your cart essentially. 374 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly. But they weren't even sure it was David's phone. 375 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 6: And eventually the National Crime Agency in the UK gave 376 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,239 Speaker 6: him the information to say it was David's phone. They 377 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 6: did that and that's illegal because they're not allowed to 378 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 6: give evidence that can help someone get the death penalty. 379 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 6: So the British broke the law. You can just google that, 380 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 6: you know, it's quite clear. It's documented in the press. 381 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 6: But the British broke the law by the National Crime 382 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 6: Agency giving that information. But even if it is his phone, 383 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 6: you know, way Peole never denied having his phone. I mean, 384 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 6: waye Puer is not, you know, university educated, but he's 385 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 6: not stupid. 386 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: Waypo came across David Miller's iPhone on Sorry beach. According 387 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: to the prosecution, this put him in the vicinity of 388 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 1: where Hannah and David were murdered, but there were a 389 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: lot of people on the beach that night. The prosecution's 390 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: case also relied heavily on DNA evidence. Jonathan Samuels covered 391 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: the trial for Sky News. 392 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 11: I very much look at the facts that have got 393 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 11: in front of me and I try and be as 394 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,479 Speaker 11: impartial as I possibly can. And I did cover the 395 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 11: start of the trial and I heard the prosecution's case 396 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 11: and when you listen to the case against these two 397 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 11: young Burmese migrants. It is very strong. DNA was found 398 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 11: at the scene in Hannah from both men. Both men's 399 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 11: DNA was found on a cigarette but found at the scene. 400 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 11: David's phone was found at the home of one of 401 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 11: their friends. Both confessed there was a huge amount which 402 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 11: pointed the finger towards these two young men. What there 403 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 11: wasn't really was a motive. They had no previous convictions, 404 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 11: there were no witnesses. And the other thing that struck 405 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 11: me when I saw them gether is they both looked petrified. 406 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 11: They looked tiny, they looked so young, and David was 407 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 11: a big guy, you know, he was a big, well 408 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 11: built guy, and I did wonder how these two slight 409 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 11: Burmese young could have overpowered someone as big as David. 410 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 11: So all that sort of went through my mind as well. 411 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 11: But certainly the evidence that the prosecution put forward was 412 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 11: very strong, and the defense really struggled to come up 413 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:13,199 Speaker 11: with anything to counter it. 414 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: On the surface, the prosecution's DNA evidence looked strong, but 415 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: upon further examination there are some who believe a lot 416 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: of it may not hold up. Again. Journalist Sarah Yun. 417 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 4: For instance, they pretty much hung this case on DNA. 418 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 4: But when they went to court, they announced in court 419 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 4: that there was no DNA on the alleged murder weapon, 420 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 4: which was a hoe. But they said that the reason 421 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 4: that they said there was no DNA on the murder 422 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 4: weapon was that they'd looked at it under a magnifying 423 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 4: glass and they couldn't find any DNA. Now, obviously you 424 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 4: don't have to know a lot about DNA to know 425 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 4: you're not going to see it under a magnifying glass. 426 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: Necessarily, the police claim that Zaln and Wapo were perfect 427 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: matches to the DNA found at the crime scene and 428 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: on Hannah's body. 429 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 9: We found inside their body, we found had a secret 430 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 9: and so many that's enough for us. 431 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 4: The biggest thing that at the time was they pulled 432 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 4: me aside for an interview the police, and they told 433 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 4: me that they had sent DNA samples to Singapore and 434 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 4: they had received twenty four hours before they'd sent them, 435 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 4: and they'd received back an affirmative that the DNA samples 436 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 4: completely matched these two men and for their. 437 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 5: Hold on in twenty four hours they got DNA samples. 438 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 4: Back, so exactly, the police spokesman told me, we sent 439 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 4: the samples yesterday, which was a Friday, to Singapore, and 440 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 4: we got the samples back this morning, which was a 441 00:23:54,840 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 4: Saturday morning, and they completely match the two boys who 442 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 4: are standing there today and that is why they've been 443 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 4: arrested and we know they did it. And I have 444 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 4: this interview on camera and when I said, I don't 445 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 4: think it's possible to get a match back in twenty 446 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 4: four hours. I think sometimes that takes anything up to 447 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 4: two weeks, and he said, no, they have special technology 448 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 4: in Singapore. That's why we sent it to Singapore and 449 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 4: we were therefore able to get it back in twenty 450 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 4: four hours. Now, by the time that went to court, 451 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 4: there was no mention of Singapore and they hadn't even 452 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 4: given it to the Thailand National Forensics Laboratory. So what 453 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 4: was said in that interview on that beach was one 454 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 4: hundred percent incorrect. According to the police chief who attended 455 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 4: the court case. One thing I did say to him was, 456 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 4: as I understood it, there is never a direct match 457 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 4: on DNA, and you can only get the ninety nine 458 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 4: point five percent match and that has to be deemed circumstantial. 459 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 4: And he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it was 460 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 4: a match it's a match. We know it's them. 461 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: Tier Police testified the samples were received on the morning 462 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: of September seventeenth, and started a DNA extraction at eight 463 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: am local time. This seems unlikely, as a pathologist only 464 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: started his autopsy at eleven am. The successful profiling of 465 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: the two men was announced around ten pm. It suggests 466 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: remarkably rapid analysis in less than twelve hours from samples 467 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: in which at least three people's DNA the victims and 468 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 1: two men were mixed. Connor as forensic expert Joseph Scott 469 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,719 Speaker 1: Morgan for his take on the speed in which the 470 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: results were received. 471 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 5: One of the other things that struck me and Andrew 472 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 5: and others that we've read and talked to people about 473 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,719 Speaker 5: this is the quickness in which they turned the DNA 474 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 5: evidence around. And I'm sort of curious. There's references to 475 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 5: having this results back in less than twenty four to 476 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 5: thirty six hours. Is that possible if you think of 477 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 5: it as it has to leave the island, be sent 478 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 5: somewhere else, process and then results back. Is that Is 479 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 5: that just bullshit? 480 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 8: Yeah? I think it is. I think it's complete bullshit. 481 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 8: We cannot judge this based upon twenty twenty two. Let's 482 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 8: just go back to twenty fourteen, but back then you'd 483 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 8: be looking generally at a six to eight week window. 484 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: The DNA samples themselves could potentially have been compromised by 485 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: the way they were handled. But remember there were questions 486 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: over the collection of DNA at the crime scene. One 487 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: factor to consider there were people walking all over the 488 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 1: crime scene after Hannah and David's bodies were discovered. 489 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 7: Six police officers that were on that island at the 490 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 7: time aren't really equipped for a complicated murder investigation. Now 491 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 7: that becomes significant because the forensic evidence in the case 492 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,959 Speaker 7: of YPO and Zoylin will be absolutely crucial. Yeah, they 493 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 7: were say in court that it was one hundred percent 494 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 7: match from that crime scene for YPO and zao LN. 495 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 7: So the inability to look after that crime scene properly 496 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 7: will have an enormous bearing on the credibility of the investigation. 497 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 7: That we know that from what was heard in court 498 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 7: that there were several mixed DNA samples. Now that's really 499 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 7: important because that means that on one sample, when they're 500 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 7: trying to detect one person's DNA, it's very hard to 501 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 7: untangle back from another person. 502 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 4: Another thing that was very interesting from day one was 503 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 4: there had been no chain of custody on the DNA samples. 504 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 4: So when you take DNA from someone, obviously it has 505 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 4: to be signed over to someone else, and signed over 506 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 4: to someone else, and signed over to someone else, so 507 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 4: by the time it reaches a testing lab, you know 508 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 4: exactly that that DNA sample has not been tampered with. 509 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 4: But in this case fully admitted in court with absolutely 510 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 4: no sense that this was something that was wrong. They 511 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 4: admitted there was no chain of custody on the DNA, 512 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 4: so it could have been anybody's DNA. 513 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: Angely I turned twenty fifteen, the defense lawyers requested to 514 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: retest the DNA samples received from Hannah weather Or's body 515 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: and from zell In and WPL. 516 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 4: And when the defense asked to retest the samples that 517 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 4: they had to and the police chief stood up in 518 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 4: court and said, sorry, it's been used up. And when 519 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 4: asked by the judge what he meant by used up, 520 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 4: he answered and said it's used up. It's nothing left 521 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 4: to test and it's all gone now, nothing for you 522 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 4: to test. 523 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: Again. Subiuchanan. 524 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 6: The Ties are known for getting rid of evidence that 525 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,479 Speaker 6: could exonerate the people they have decided are guilty, like 526 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 6: in the case of way Puran is all In. You know, 527 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 6: they take the samples of DNA supposedly from Hannah. We 528 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 6: have no proof those DNA samples came from Hannah. They 529 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 6: tested them and then they probably lost them the amplified 530 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 6: part of them and lost the rest. And then when 531 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 6: the defense wanted to independently retest the DNA, they were told, well, 532 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 6: we've lost it or has been used up. There's none 533 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 6: left for independent testing. We've only got amplified samples. Well, 534 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 6: the amplified samples, we don't know which string of DNA 535 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 6: that came from. And while it very well could have 536 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 6: matched all In in wag Pure, it matched about nine 537 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 6: million other people. So you can't say with one amplified sample, 538 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 6: one amplified mixed sample without any supporting evidence documents, probability studies, 539 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 6: that that matched the boys. It may well have matched 540 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 6: the boys, but it probably matched me and you and 541 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 6: everybody listening to this podcast. 542 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: And there are questions about some pieces of evidence that 543 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: either went missing or were never tested. 544 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 12: The defense also argues that the police failed to test 545 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 12: a number of items from the crime scene including blood 546 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 12: on the rocks and sand, and Hannah's clothes. 547 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 4: Hannah's underwear was missing, even though that the police said 548 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 4: that they'd had it as evidence, when it got to 549 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 4: the court they didn't have it, and she was reported 550 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 4: to have a lock of hair in her fingers when 551 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 4: they found her body, which obviously could well have belonged 552 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 4: to whoever assaulted her. And when they got to court, 553 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 4: the police chief, who was Lieutenant Colonel Somsek, admitted that 554 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 4: there was a lock of hair taken from Hannah's hands, 555 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 4: that the sample had been lost. When the judge said 556 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 4: to him, what do you mean lost, she said, oh, 557 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 4: it's just gone. We don't know where it is. 558 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: It's just lost. Let's stop here for another break. This 559 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,479 Speaker 1: brings us to what police claim was the murder weapon, 560 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: a garden hole. The defense as the top expert from 561 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: the Central Institute of Forensic Science and Thailand, doctor Porntip, 562 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: to examine the murder weapon. 563 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 12: Doctor Porte reveals to the court that she has retested 564 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 12: the garden hoe. She says she found DNA from David 565 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 12: Miller and another unknown male who is neither Zorlin nor Waypo. 566 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: Here's a portion of Tomstone's documentary Murder in Paradise. In it, 567 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: you'll hear doctor portneb saying, from the pieces of evidence 568 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: that are sent to me, there is only one that 569 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: is relevant. That is a hoe. By examining the DNA 570 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: found on the end of the whole, the DNA profiles 571 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: that are detected belong to two humans. Both are male. 572 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: We compared it with the defendant's DNA, but they did 573 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: not match. The result is that the DNA belonged to 574 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: two men, but not the two defendants. 575 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:21,719 Speaker 7: The defense forensic experts said that she'd found another sample 576 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 7: of somebody else who was not Ypoor was all in, 577 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 7: and I think that reflects just how difficult it was 578 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 7: that the crime team to properly wrote it off keep 579 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 7: other people off the grounds. And we don't know what 580 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 7: happened after David Na and Halloweerrich had died. We don't 581 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 7: know who else had passed through at that time. We 582 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 7: don't know what other contamination issues they might have had. 583 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: Here's what one time major general responded when asked about 584 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: the quality of their DNA analysis. 585 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 9: I have no idea why people doesn't believe in that evidence. 586 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 9: We'd did it in the laboratory. We did it with 587 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 9: the specialist. The equipment that they use is come from 588 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 9: European standards, things like that comply with IS or something 589 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 9: I cannot remember, but. 590 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: Subi Canon says. The defense's forensic expert pushed back against 591 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: the way the prosecution was presenting the DNA evidence. 592 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 6: She was sent the garden hoe and she tested it, 593 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 6: and she said that the two DNA samples she found 594 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 6: on the garden hoe didn't match waypure or sort in. Now, 595 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 6: you can argue that those DNA samples, it was all 596 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 6: in way pure could easily been washed off that garden hoe. 597 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 6: But if you're washing a garden hose so thoroughly that 598 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 6: those DNA samples have gone, how come you know David's 599 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 6: DNA was on there and another Asian male has not 600 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 6: been washed that thoroughly. 601 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 4: You would think that if they were hanging their case 602 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 4: on it, they would have made sure that they had 603 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 4: a tight case with Internet organizations or east their own 604 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 4: national forensics laboratory would have agreed. And in this case 605 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 4: was interesting that the National Forensics Institute in Thailand testified 606 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 4: for the defense. So as soon as that happened, they 607 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 4: at least closed down the DNA argument. 608 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: Overall, forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan has five words for 609 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: the forensic evidence gathered in the case against Sauln and WPO. 610 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 8: It's an absolute train wreck, and it seems like it 611 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 8: keeps repeating itself over and over again. 612 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: Joseph Morgan brings up one more important detail that should 613 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: be considered. 614 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 8: Remember, they've put forth this idea of sexual assault okay 615 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 8: on this poor young woman and a disfigurement of her face. 616 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 8: Whoever did this would have potentially been bathed in blood. 617 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 8: Let's just say that you have an individual who has 618 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 8: facilitated this, they're going to be potentially saturated in blood. 619 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 8: These are fine pits of evidence. If they're walking away, 620 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 8: you can actually have passive blood droplets that are being 621 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 8: cast off from the hands or just dripped passively as 622 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 8: they're walking away. Can you imagine the wealth of information 623 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 8: if you had taken the time surveyed the scene. You 624 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 8: had to remember, we saw those images of the blood 625 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 8: where the body was kind of resting in the sand. 626 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,839 Speaker 8: What if you had a trail concurrently with footprints where 627 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 8: the individual is walking away and you've got droplets of 628 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 8: blood that are leading away, Well, that stuff is very minute. 629 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 8: If you have everybody and their brother walking through the scene, 630 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 8: the slightest scuff on the ground can compromise any of 631 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 8: that very delicate evidence that's left behind. So that's the 632 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 8: kind of thing that you're looking at. It's very delicate work. 633 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 5: And I want to make sure I understand you correctly. 634 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 5: What you are saying is is if our convicted suspects 635 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 5: probably did wield this hoe, they would have been covered 636 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 5: in blood, both on their skin, their fingernails, their hair, 637 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 5: and more importantly probably their clothes. 638 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 8: Oh absolutely, And again I go back to the intimacy 639 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 8: of this assault. Connor, We're talking about very horrendous sexual assault. 640 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 8: And admittedly, you know, one of the things that the 641 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 8: authorities have put forward this poor young lady was struck 642 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 8: in the head in order to initially kind of stun 643 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 8: her so that this horrendous event could be carried out. 644 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 8: We don't know the volume of blood that issued forth 645 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 8: from her body, but I know this, the head is 646 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 8: one of the most vascular areas of the body, both 647 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,720 Speaker 8: internally and externally. Ask anybody that's ever split their scalp 648 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 8: open in any passive thing and get blood that's going everywhere. 649 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 8: It looks like a horrorship. 650 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: In our research on this case, we couldn't find any 651 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: evidence that Wapo or Zelen had clothing covered in blood. 652 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 5: The next day, Zelln and Wapo reported to work and 653 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,800 Speaker 5: they didn't have any marks on them, right, well. 654 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 6: If they did, nobody noticed them. I mean, bearing in mind, 655 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,479 Speaker 6: you know, two massive brutal murders of just and Place. 656 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 6: I think if anyone turned up to work with scratch 657 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 6: wounds and bruises and looking like they've been involved in 658 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 6: a fight, then you know they're going to be suspects, 659 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,280 Speaker 6: aren't they. And I spoke to both Wape your Anzelin's boss, 660 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 6: and they both confirm they turn up to work as 661 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 6: normal the next day with you know, nothing unusual whatsoever. 662 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 6: And you know, if you committed the crime of that magnitude, 663 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 6: would you really spend the next two and a half 664 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 6: weeks sitting on the island when there's eight or nine 665 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 6: boats leaving every day and you can go back to 666 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 6: your family in Burma. 667 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: More on that this season. If you have any information 668 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: about Hannah Withatheridge and David Miller, please contact us at 669 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 1: producers at Katdashstudios dot com for more information and relevant photos. 670 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at Kat Underscores Studios. Death Island 671 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: is produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnell, Jeff Shane, 672 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: Chris Cacaro, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and 673 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: sound design Jeff Trois. Music by Vanicor Music. Death Island 674 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios. For more 675 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 676 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.