1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning. 2 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 2: This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,159 Speaker 2: episode is going to be a longer one part of 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 2: the series where I interview fascinating people about how they 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 2: take their days from great to awesome and any advice 6 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 2: they have for the rest of us. So today I 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 2: am excited to welcome Oliver Berkman to the show. Oliver 8 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 2: is the author of four thousand Weeks Time Management for 9 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 2: Mortals and also Meditations for Mortals, which is newly out 10 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: in paperback this month. So Oliver, welcome to the show. 11 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 3: Thank you very much for inviting me. 12 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, very glad to have you. Why did you tell 13 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 2: our listeners a little bit about yourself? 14 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 4: Gosh, well, I wrote them books that you mentioned, so 15 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 4: I won't mention them again. I'm British, as is easy 16 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 4: to tell. I worked as a journalist at the Guardian 17 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 4: newspaper for quite a few years and wrote a column 18 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 4: that sort of got me into all this kind of 19 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 4: personal development, self healthy stuff, although partly by testing a 20 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 4: lot of it out finding it not to deliver. 21 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 3: In the ways that I felt I needed it to. 22 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 4: I lived in Brooklyn, New York for a bunch of years, 23 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 4: and now our family lives in North Yorkshire. In the 24 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 4: North York Moor was sort of Wuthering Heights territory where 25 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 4: I'm speaking to you from now. 26 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 2: Very literary sort of area, like you inspired to write 27 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 2: some sort of great British novel just by walking around. 28 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 4: I am sure all my work is going to become 29 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,839 Speaker 4: really gothic from now, yes. 30 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly. 31 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: Well, but your earlier work, when you were a columnist 32 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 2: for The Guardian, you was there a particular reason you 33 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 2: wound up on the self help beat? 34 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 4: I mean, looking back, it seems very obvious to me 35 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 4: now that I was attempting to find ways personally for 36 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 4: my self, sort of therapeutically, grappling with these questions of 37 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 4: how do you feel more in control than I did, 38 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 4: or how do you feel happier or you know, not 39 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,399 Speaker 4: beset by anxiety or feelings of crushing, feelings of duty 40 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 4: and obligation, all the personal hang ups from which I suffered, 41 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 4: And so it didn't feel particularly like that at the time. 42 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 4: I think that's probably true. A lot of reasons people 43 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 4: write about a lot of stuff. Maybe in a lot 44 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 4: of your work, you're a bit more sort of transparent 45 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 4: about this fact. And maybe it's more, maybe it's more 46 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 4: unconscious in other people. But I think I was at 47 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 4: first through a kind of often being quite sarcastic and 48 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 4: critical about self help world, which I still think is 49 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 4: probably entirely justified at least in some instances. But I 50 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 4: was sort of backing into asking difficult, vulnerable questions with 51 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 4: this alibi that it was just for work, and I 52 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 4: always just work exactly. 53 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, there's an interesting thing about productivity. 54 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of it is mental, right. 55 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 2: I mean, we were we were having a discussion before 56 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: we started recording about you had something that happened to 57 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 2: your day which was not planned, and sort of through 58 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 2: through the day off a little bit. 59 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 4: And then we're still here talking and I had you 60 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 4: introduced me as someone who's going to share wisdom about 61 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 4: how to how to really make the day go so 62 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 4: fluidly and wonderfully. So I'm I'm I'm really being obliged 63 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 4: to figure out if I walk the talk today. 64 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 2: But but you know, okay, so productivity is probably how 65 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 2: we feel about it. You had something happened to your 66 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: day that you didn't anticipate, not anybody's fault. 67 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: It is what it is. 68 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 2: We're still here having the conversation. At the time, you 69 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 2: weren't late at all, but you said earlier that you 70 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: were feeling a little. 71 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: Bit sort of off for the day. 72 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: I'm curious why why that is what happens when things 73 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 2: go awry, that that makes you feel differently about your time. 74 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 4: Well, I think, I mean the first thing, in my defense, 75 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 4: after claim after you know, implying that I'm not at 76 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 4: all the paragon of productivity or calm that I present 77 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 4: myself as or something like that, I would have been 78 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 4: massively more knocked sideways. And it's not a secret. My 79 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 4: my son had to come home from school with a 80 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 4: sort of minor illness. It's no big crisis, but it's 81 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 4: enough to sort of sway the day for people who 82 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 4: work from home, and you know, back in the day, 83 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 4: although before I became a parent, so it's kind of 84 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 4: a bad comparison, but things that happened like that would 85 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,799 Speaker 4: sort of knock me completely off course and I would 86 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 4: like feel like I had to call off the whole day. 87 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 4: And that is a response, I think to this fundamental 88 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 4: issue that manifests for lots of people in different ways 89 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 4: of control. Right, you want to feel like you're in 90 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 4: control of your stuff and your time, and if something 91 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 4: happens that really challenges that feeling of control, then if 92 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 4: you have the luxury, as freelance self employed writers do, 93 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 4: and not everyone does, but if you have the luxury 94 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 4: to sort of just kind of be thrown completely of 95 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 4: course and give up on the day, then it's very 96 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 4: tempting to do so, because it's like, well, Okay, I've 97 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 4: lost control of today, but tomorrow will be different. 98 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 3: Tomorrow I'll be. 99 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 4: Back in the saddle and I will exert full control 100 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 4: over the day. And I did have a sort of 101 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 4: I still get flickers of that. I did have that 102 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 4: sense today of like, oh, this wasn't planned. I had 103 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 4: to take a couple of hours out from what I 104 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 4: was expecting to be doing, So now like, what's the point? 105 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 4: And then I actually see myself doing that. I think 106 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 4: that's the big thing that's changed for me. I understand 107 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 4: that dynamic, and I say, look, I never really had 108 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 4: that control in the first place. It is absurd to 109 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 4: think that if I can't do seven hours of effective 110 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 4: work today, then there's no point in doing one or two. 111 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 4: This just makes no sense at all, and you can 112 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 4: sort of and maybe it changes what I want to 113 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 4: focus on, maybe it changes what I feel able to 114 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 4: focus on. But to be able to more fluidly navigate 115 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 4: among those things, I mean, I've got a lot better 116 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 4: at that. And it came from realizing that I never 117 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 4: really had the control I thought I had in the 118 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 4: first place, because actually, long before I became a parent 119 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 4: or even was in a long term relationship or anything, 120 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 4: I would have those days when just turned out my 121 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 4: mood wasn't on board for the day, and it's like, well, okay, 122 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 4: but am I just going to be completely thrown off 123 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 4: course by some sort of internal weather pattern like that? 124 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 4: So I think learning the limits of my own control 125 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 4: over time and learning to sort of work with that 126 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 4: and go with that has been really huge for me. 127 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:48,239 Speaker 1: Yeah. 128 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 2: Well, one of the things you talk about in the 129 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:55,359 Speaker 2: book and Meditations for Mortals is a lot of different 130 00:06:55,400 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: sort of I guess product of any strategies or mindsets 131 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 2: or things that you know could be helpful. And one 132 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 2: you mentioned is that we probably only have three to 133 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 2: four hours of good creative energy on any given day, 134 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: and that has a couple of different implications. I wonder 135 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: if you could talk about that rule a little bit. 136 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, and again, this is something where it's really vividly 137 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 4: clear for people like me and I think you who 138 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 4: have a lot of autonomy over our time, who have 139 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 4: to do the work, like over the long term to 140 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 4: pay the bills, but who you know, can probably choose 141 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 4: a lot of the time. What we do with a 142 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 4: specific hour of a specific day be different for people 143 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 4: in other kinds of jobs, but the essence of the 144 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 4: wisdom of it, I think is universal. There's really good 145 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 4: evidence all through history that the great sort of authors 146 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 4: and artists, scholars and composers and mathematicians, scientists, all sorts 147 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 4: of people who have that kind of autonomy, the greatest ones, 148 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 4: when you look at their daily routines, they do not 149 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 4: ask of themselves more than three or four hours of 150 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 4: intense focused brain work, depending on who it is and 151 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 4: where in history. You then find that they've got, you know, 152 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 4: twelve servants and a dutiful wife to do all the 153 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 4: other things in life, so they get to just sort 154 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 4: of swan about for the rest of the day. 155 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 3: And this is not how the world works for us 156 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 3: these days. 157 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 4: But that basic idea that if you're a knowledge worker, 158 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 4: and you have the autonomy to kind of limit the 159 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 4: amount of time that you try to defend for deep, deep, 160 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 4: deep reflection, you should limit it to that amount of time. 161 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 4: I think is really is really true and important. One 162 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 4: of the ramifications of this, I think is that we should, 163 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 4: to whatever extent we can, try to ring fence try 164 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 4: to defend that stretch of hours of about that amount 165 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 4: if we can, in the course of a working day. 166 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 4: But a really important second sort of corollary insight, I 167 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 4: think is that you shouldn't stress too hard about defending 168 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 4: and structuring the rest of the time. So there is 169 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 4: in this kind of three or four hours idea both 170 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 4: a sense of discipline, like, yeah, try to pick the 171 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 4: hours that work the best for you and be as 172 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 4: uninterrupted as you possibly can and focus on your core projects. 173 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 4: But then don't be yourself up for the fact that 174 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 4: the rest of that time is going to be the 175 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 4: way life is right, full of interruptions and serendipity and 176 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 4: things that you didn't realize were going to come up 177 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 4: until half an hour ago. And I find this a 178 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 4: much you know, again, not exactly a typical day to day, 179 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 4: but I find this a much happier way to do things. 180 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 4: It doesn't Trying to structure and plan the whole day 181 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 4: for me is often a recipe for a lot of 182 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 4: in a combat because it feels like reality isn't conforming 183 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 4: to my wishes or something like that. 184 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 2: Yes, reality sometimes does not conform to our wishes, A 185 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 2: deep truth of life. Well, we're going to take a 186 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 2: quick ad break and then I will be back with 187 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 2: more from Oliver Berkman. Well, I am back talking with 188 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 2: Oliver Berkman, who is the author of several books, including 189 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 2: four Thousand Weeks and Meditation for Mortals, which is newly 190 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 2: out in paperback this month. 191 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: So, Oliver, another tidbit in Meditation for Mortals. 192 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 2: Is the idea of thinking, well, what if it were easy? 193 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 2: That you know, looking for something that is hard or 194 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:33,959 Speaker 2: difficult is not always necessary. I wonder if you could 195 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 2: talk a little bit about that. 196 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, happily. I mean, this was a big deal 197 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 4: for me when I realized how I had been approaching things. 198 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 4: In one sense, making decisions about what to spend your 199 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 4: time on and getting yourself to do that is difficult, 200 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 4: And that's another theme in my writing right. 201 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 3: The difficulty is that there are. 202 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 4: Far more things than we have time available that we'd 203 00:10:58,320 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 4: like to do or feel obliged to do that we 204 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 4: have time to do, we have to make painful choices, 205 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 4: and we don't have the level of control over how 206 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 4: reality unfolds that we would like. So in that sense, 207 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 4: like being a finite human is difficult, but there's a risk. 208 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 4: I think a lot of us are brought up and 209 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 4: raised and encouraged by the culture to assume that the 210 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 4: actual experience of doing a meaningful action in work or 211 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 4: in many other context too, sort of probably has to 212 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 4: feel quite grueling. That if it isn't hurting, it isn't working. 213 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 4: As British politicians like to say about sort of economic 214 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 4: austerity policies. 215 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 3: Right that somehow, if I'm doing something. 216 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 4: That matters, it's going to feel like a fight, and 217 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 4: I'm going to get to the end of the day 218 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,119 Speaker 4: and feel like, wow, that was really painful and exhausting, 219 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 4: but at least you know I did the thing that matters. 220 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 3: And what that. 221 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 4: Means is we're two things. Firstly, it can trick you 222 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 4: into thinking that just because the day was really exhausting, 223 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 4: that must therefore have been worthwhile, and a lot of 224 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 4: busy work is exhausting, but actually would be best maybe 225 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 4: delegated or ignored completely or postponed or something like that. 226 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 4: And most importantly, it means that you don't think to 227 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,599 Speaker 4: ask that question right at the beginning of some difficult 228 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 4: or seeming or intimidating project, like what if this is 229 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 4: actually easier for me than I'm assuming? What if instead 230 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 4: of like girding myself and bracing myself for it to 231 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 4: be really difficult, I sort of approached it with at 232 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 4: least the possibility that I know how to do this, 233 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 4: and that you know, the ideas and the energy and 234 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 4: the focus will come together in the right way, and 235 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 4: it doesn't always happen, but you actually, you know, greatly 236 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:49,439 Speaker 4: enhance the chances of it happening when you move into 237 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 4: projects in that spirit, and so definitely, sort of anything 238 00:12:55,440 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 4: that counts as creative, I find that the effect of 239 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 4: going into them expecting difficulty is to sort of bring 240 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 4: down that. It sort of brings difficulty to the experience, 241 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 4: It makes it harder, It squeezes things so that ideas 242 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 4: flow less regularly, less easily. 243 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 3: So I think that's really important. 244 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 4: If you go into reality as if it's going to 245 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 4: be a fight then you often get a fight that 246 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 4: for that very reason. 247 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. 248 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 2: Well, one of the things you talk about, you know, 249 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 2: in terms of changing our mindset about time as well, 250 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 2: is creating a done list, so sort of a reverse 251 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 2: to do list, but things that you have done and accomplished. 252 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: How is that helpful? 253 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 4: Again, it's really the perspective shift that counts, and this 254 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 4: is like one of a million ways of executing or 255 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 4: implementing this perspective shift. But what I find really useful 256 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 4: about a done list, which of course people seem to 257 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 4: think I'm saying should be instead of a to do 258 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 4: list and you should throw away all your lists. I mean, 259 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 4: I think there's an argument for that, but that's not 260 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 4: what I'm saying here. A done list is just an 261 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 4: extra thing, right. It's just a way of recording the 262 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 4: actions that you take as you move through the day, 263 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 4: whether or not they were on an initial plan or 264 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 4: a to do list. And I think what's so important 265 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 4: about that is it just has this effect of shifting 266 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 4: the kind of internal comparison you're making when you look 267 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 4: at what you've done. Right, It's very simple and very 268 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 4: natural going through the day to sort of compare what 269 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 4: you've done to the hypothetical list of all the things 270 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 4: that feel like they need doing today, which is always 271 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 4: going to be longer than time is going to permit, 272 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 4: and in some sense maybe. 273 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 3: Sort of infinitely long, so you're never going to get 274 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 3: to the end of it. 275 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 4: But this then to keeping a done list sort of 276 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 4: shifts your focus back because you're looking at these things 277 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 4: that you're adding to the list. It's correct, it's proper 278 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 4: that the list is getting longer as you add more things. 279 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 4: It's not a problem that it's getting longer. You're not 280 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 4: trying to get rid of it. And you're implicitly comparing 281 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 4: your output with the day, but on the data what 282 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 4: you would have achieved if you've done nothing thing at all, 283 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 4: So the comparison is with zero instead of with infinity. 284 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 4: And this is a much better basis for comparing your 285 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 4: for sort of judging your your actions. And I find 286 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 4: it delivers a real sense of kind of self efficacy, 287 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 4: of agency, of like, oh, look like I am actually 288 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 4: doing things in the world. I am actually sort of 289 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 4: contacting reality and doing things with them. And as I 290 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 4: write in the book, if if you're in a particular 291 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 4: sort of motivational rut, if you're in bad shape and 292 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 4: can't really bring yourself to do anything at all. You 293 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 4: can just really lower the bar for what gets to 294 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 4: get put on the done list, right, nobody needs to 295 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 4: see this. You can put made coffee or took a shower, 296 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 4: walk to the dog, right. You don't only need to 297 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 4: put the sort of core work. 298 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 3: Project on it. 299 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 4: And when you do this, you actually find I find 300 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 4: that things snowball quite quickly and you see, oh, just 301 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 4: that feedback evidence of like, yeah, I didn't do nothing 302 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 4: because I made some coffee. I didn't do nothing because I, 303 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 4: you know, loaded the dishwasher. It can snowball into sort 304 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 4: of more overtly impressive accomplishments than that quite quickly. 305 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. 306 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 2: One of the things you talk about in the book 307 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 2: is not being so kind to your future self. And 308 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 2: obviously there's a thing with productivity literature that many of 309 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 2: us are spending a lot of time preparing for say 310 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 2: the upcoming week, you know, preparing all our meals on 311 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 2: Sunday for the entire rest of the week, putting out 312 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: outfits for many days to come. How can we create 313 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 2: the right balance so it's not total chaos, but we're 314 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 2: not spending so much time dwelling on the future that 315 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 2: we're not, you know, living. 316 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think it's definitely a balance, and 317 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 4: it's a matter of introspecting and figuring out, like what 318 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 4: your issue is. Certainly there are people, I think who 319 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 4: are prone to sort of hedonistically squandering all their time 320 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 4: and their money and their resources sort of on instantaneous 321 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 4: gratification in a way that means they don't make plans 322 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 4: for the future. But there is an opposite problem, and 323 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 4: I think it probably is the kind of problem that 324 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 4: people who are interested in all this stuff and productivity 325 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 4: and time management and conversations like this in the first 326 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 4: place are probably more prone to. 327 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 3: And that is the yeah, the risk of. 328 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 4: Being so good, as it were, at delayed and deferred 329 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 4: gratification that you spend your whole life like dutifully doing 330 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 4: the things that will make the future better in a 331 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 4: way that makes life in the present feel kind of provisional. Right, 332 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,959 Speaker 4: everything you're doing is always for some future moment. And 333 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 4: the sort of classic example of that, I suppose is 334 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 4: the person who makes a huge ton of money and 335 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 4: then has to feel psychologically impelled to carry on just 336 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 4: making grinding to make more and more money. Instead of 337 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 4: using it for things that you know they would enjoy 338 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 4: or that would be good. 339 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 3: For the world. 340 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 4: But I think we do all do that in subtler ways, 341 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 4: right we get into this mindset a lot of us do. Anyway, 342 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 4: We get into this mindset of everything is about planning, 343 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 4: everything is about finishing things for the future, and you 344 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 4: fail to kind of lives as fully as you might. 345 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 4: So the analogy here is the famous mushmallow studies, which 346 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 4: I'm sure a lot of people listening will know about, 347 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 4: where children were given a marshmallow and told that if 348 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 4: they waited ten minutes without eating it, they could get 349 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 4: a second marshmallow, and the kids who have the self 350 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 4: discipline to wait for the second marshmallows supposedly had all 351 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 4: sorts of very very much more positive life outcomes as adults. 352 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 4: Those studies have been contested in certain ways, but even 353 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 4: if they're right, like, it's also the case that at 354 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 4: some point you have to eat a marshmallow if you're 355 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 4: going to gain the benefit of collecting all these mrshmallows. 356 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 4: Just holding a big pile of marshmallows and then dying, 357 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 4: it's not a successful way of having used a finite 358 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 4: human life so for me, you know, in terms of 359 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 4: what this really concretely means, it might be about finding 360 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 4: ways to figure out what it is you want in 361 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 4: your life, or maybe you know this, and then bringing 362 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 4: them from the future back into the present in little ways. 363 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 4: So instead of just telling yourself you're going to take 364 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 4: a sabbatical in a year and a half time, so 365 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 4: right now you're just going to work really hard so 366 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 4: that you're ready for that. Maybe there's a way in 367 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 4: which you could bring that spirit of rest into your 368 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 4: life today for fifteen minutes. If there's some hobby or 369 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 4: some kind of experience that you're putting off until you've 370 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 4: got all your ducks in a row, as it were, 371 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 4: maybe there's some way in which you could engage in 372 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 4: that this week a little bit as well. I think 373 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 4: it's really important to sort of remember that eventually, at 374 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 4: some point, a fulfilling and enjoyable and worthwhile life has 375 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 4: to be happening in a now, right in a present moment. 376 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 4: Otherwise you do run the risk of spending your whole 377 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 4: life preparing and then there's no more time left. 378 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: So we should give the batch cooking? Are we giving 379 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: up the batch cooking? 380 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 4: Are we well? Again, you know you need to ask 381 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 4: yourself this question, right, that it's not that, like, firstly, 382 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 4: it's not that every kind of instance of batch cooking 383 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 4: or preparation is negative, and like, honestly, it's probably the 384 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 4: case that as human animals we're just not capable of 385 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,239 Speaker 4: not somewhat living in that goal oriented way, even if 386 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 4: it was a good thing to abandon it, and I 387 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 4: don't think it is. But yeah, I mean maybe if 388 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 4: you're the kind of person who is always doing that 389 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 4: kind of batch preparation, maybe it's worth sort of having 390 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 4: a bit more trust in the person that you'll be 391 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 4: in the future when you meet that question of like, Okay, 392 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 4: it's dinner time, what can I do? Maybe you don't 393 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 4: need to have it all planned in advance. Again, if 394 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 4: one specific thing like batch cooking really works for you, 395 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 4: please don't let me put you off it. But that 396 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 4: general spirit of like I've got to do it all 397 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 4: now so that later on everything runs smoothly, it's like, well, 398 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 4: maybe you can find ways for it to run smoothly 399 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 4: in the moment when those present moments arrive. 400 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would like to say your future self will 401 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 2: not be incompetent, so we don't have to overcare take 402 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 2: for him or her. 403 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: We're good, all right. 404 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 2: We're going to take one more quick ad break and 405 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 2: then I will be back with more from Oliver Berkman. Well, 406 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 2: I am back talking with Oliver Berkman, who is the 407 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 2: author of several books, including four thousand Weeks Time Management 408 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 2: for Mortals, also the book Meditations for Mortals, which is 409 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 2: out in paperback this month. So, Oliver, one question I 410 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:40,719 Speaker 2: always ask my guests is what is something you have 411 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 2: done recently to take a day from great to awesome? 412 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 3: Huh, that's a good question. 413 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 4: I don't know if I can articulate this properly, but 414 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 4: I think what I've really found very useful recently, and 415 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 4: I can remember a few times I've done it. 416 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 3: In the very recent past, is. 417 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 4: I'm learning that it to sort of give myself the 418 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 4: time that I need to transition between phases of the 419 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 4: day and work to family and kinds of. 420 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 3: Work to other kinds of work. 421 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 4: I'm someone who, like by default, does not like the 422 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 4: idea of maybe stopping working twenty twenty five minutes before 423 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 4: it's time for school pickup or something, because I don't 424 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 4: have enough time as it is, and I want to 425 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 4: try to use that time as well as I can. 426 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 4: But I'm gradually learning that actually using that time as 427 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 4: well as you can for me involves allowing that sort 428 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 4: of seemingly useless, seemingly neutral time to sort of adapt 429 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 4: from one to the other so that in each of 430 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 4: those phases, I can be my best that I can 431 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 4: be and sort of enjoy it and give as much 432 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 4: as I can to it. A very closely related example 433 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 4: of this is sort of withholding judgment about how an 434 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 4: experience feels at the beginning of it. I'll explain what 435 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 4: I mean, like, if I've spent the morning in a 436 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 4: frenzy of kind of deadline focused work and then sort 437 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 4: of emails and calls. If I then want to turn 438 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 4: to a difficult book that I'm trying to read for 439 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 4: work purposes, I sort of am learning now that the 440 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 4: first ten to fifteen minutes of that experience, it's not 441 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 4: going to feel good, because I really am in that 442 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 4: transition place. But if I can just sort of notice 443 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 4: that negative feeling be okay work alongside it, that's often 444 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 4: the precursor to really getting deeply absorbed into the next thing. 445 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 4: So I'm trying not to sort of rush to judgment 446 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 4: about how something feels just at the beginning of the experience. 447 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 448 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, we don't want to get lost in transition, 449 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 2: but transitions are part of life and have to build 450 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 2: them in to just get from one thing to another. So, Oliver, 451 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 2: what's something you are looking forward to right now? 452 00:23:54,920 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 4: I am looking forward to building out the new writing 453 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 4: space that I that I have for the really for 454 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 4: the first time in a very long time, I have 455 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 4: a room here in the northilk Moors that I can 456 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 4: use sort of set up as I as I am 457 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 4: want to for my for my work, and there is 458 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 4: something very very enjoyable about that sense of, you know, 459 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 4: completely empty space that I can do exactly what I 460 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 4: want with. I am extremely aware at the same time 461 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 4: that there is a major risk from my sort of 462 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 4: historical perfections tendencies to tell myself that I'm going to 463 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 4: get this exactly right and then after that writing is 464 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 4: just going to feel easy and I'm going to have 465 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 4: no more challenges in my work, and so I'm trying 466 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 4: to stay aware of that. But I am looking forward 467 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 4: to sort of shaping that way I the way I 468 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 4: want to, because I haven't had that opportunity in a 469 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 4: long while. 470 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, of course we've got to be careful because, 471 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 2: as you know, home office rearrangement is a very good 472 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 2: way to put procrastinate. 473 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 3: Yes, there's that as well. 474 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 4: And you know that that risk that you tell yourself 475 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 4: like you don't need to it makes sense to not 476 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 4: make any progress on your writing for now, just until 477 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 4: you've got this all sorted out. To that end, I 478 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 4: would just say, in my defense, I have, you know, 479 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 4: in the space I'm talking about, I've got I've got 480 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 4: a surface, but I put my computer on and a chair. 481 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 4: So like, I've been trying very consciously to sort of 482 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 4: organize the day such that I first of all, do 483 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 4: a few hours on the work that is not endlessly 484 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 4: organizing the writing space, and then get to turn to 485 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 4: that enjoyable. 486 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 3: Task later in the day. 487 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 4: That's a sort of one version of a more general 488 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 4: point that I've really tried to implement and that I 489 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,439 Speaker 4: do write about in the in the in the books, 490 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 4: which is again that sense of not trying to kind 491 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 4: of clear the decks, not trying to get everything sorted 492 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 4: out first, and then I I'm going to get these 493 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 4: acres of wonderful time for the work that is most meaningful. 494 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 3: But actually to sort of, you. 495 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 4: Know, do an hour first thing, do a two or 496 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 4: three hours first thing on the work that is most meaningful, 497 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 4: even while I don't feel like the setting is right 498 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 4: or the context is right, the writing room isn't set 499 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 4: up yet, or the inbox is too full of emails 500 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 4: or whatever. It is, to sort of learn to tolerate 501 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 4: that anxiety and still put a bit of time into 502 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 4: the things that matter the most. That's a that's a 503 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 4: real superpower, and one I am only you know, a 504 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 4: work in progress. 505 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 2: Think we are with We are all a work in 506 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 2: progress on that one, for sure, Oliver. 507 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: So where can people find you. 508 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 3: Books? 509 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 4: So wherever you get your books and the audiobooks too, 510 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 4: which are read by me, And then everything else, including 511 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 4: my newsletter and stuff, is all at my website Oliver 512 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 4: Berkman dot com. 513 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 2: Excellent, Well, Oliver, thank you so much for joining us. 514 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback 515 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 2: about this or any other episode, you can always reach 516 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 2: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime, 517 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 2: this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making 518 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 2: the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. 519 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 2: If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach 520 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 2: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast 521 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 2: is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, 522 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 2: please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 523 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 2: listen to your favorite shows.