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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June grosseol from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: The US Supreme Court is the only thing standing between

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump and the sentencing tomorrow on his hush money conviction. Today,

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Speaker 2: New York's highest court refused to block his sentencing. On Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: Trump had asked the Supreme Court to call off the sentencing,

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Speaker 2: but the justices have yet to respond to that request.

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Speaker 2: Joining me is constitutional law expert Michael Dorf, a professor

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Speaker 2: at Cornell Law School. Would it be unprecedented for the

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court to intervene in a state case before sentencing.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 4: I mean there are extraordinary circumstances in which it's possible

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Speaker 4: to obtain a stay from the US Supreme Court before

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Speaker 4: final judgment in the state court proceedings. An example might

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Speaker 4: be if someone is scheduled to be executed and has

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Speaker 4: a plausible claim that the execution would violate their Eighth

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Speaker 4: Amendment rights against cruel and usual punishment, for example, And

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Speaker 4: even if the state courts haven't finally ruled, if the

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Speaker 4: execution is going to proceed, then the court can intervene.

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Speaker 4: There's opportunity per something called sorceraria before judgment. This isn't

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Speaker 4: a full on cert petition, but it is a stay application,

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Speaker 4: So I don't think it'll be unprecedented to intervene at

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Speaker 4: this stage. It is an extraordinarily high burden, however, that

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Speaker 4: an applicant must satisfy in order to get this kind

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Speaker 4: of relief.

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Speaker 2: What are Trump's arguments asking the court to intervene to

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Speaker 2: stop the sentencing.

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Speaker 4: He basically makes three sorts of arguments. One seems not

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Speaker 4: really well geared to what he's seeking, and that is

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Speaker 4: he says that the trial judge improperly admitted evidence that

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Speaker 4: constitutes official acts in violation of Trump the United States,

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Speaker 4: which was the immunity ruling. Now in defense of judgement

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Speaker 4: Sean that ruling hadn't come down yet at the time

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Speaker 4: of the New York State trial. But that doesn't matter

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Speaker 4: as long as the judgment isn't final. You're bound by

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Speaker 4: decisions of the Supreme Court that come out, and so

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Speaker 4: it's possible that that is a good claim on the merits,

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Speaker 4: but that doesn't really justify extraordinary relief. Ordinarily, if you

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Speaker 4: think the trial judge aired, even if they aired only

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Speaker 4: retroactively because the Supreme Court changed the law on them,

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Speaker 4: you have the full proceedings in the state court, and

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Speaker 4: then you go to the Supreme Court. So I don't

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Speaker 4: quite see why they're making that as a claim justifying

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Speaker 4: extraordinary relief. The second thing they say is that in

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Speaker 4: one of these cases where there is a claim of

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Speaker 4: presidential immunity, there is an entitlement to an automatic stay

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Speaker 4: tending the resolution of an appeal. The immunity question. That's

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Speaker 4: a slightly better argument, because there the idea would be

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Speaker 4: that this is really about whether you have immunity from

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Speaker 4: criminal trial. If you have an immunity from the trial

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Speaker 4: at all, then you might say, well, you should get

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Speaker 4: everything you are entitled to by way of appeal before

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Speaker 4: the case proceeds any further, because the immunity from trial

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Speaker 4: is not just an immunity against the sentence or conviction.

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Speaker 4: It's immunity against the proceedings itself. And so there there's

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Speaker 4: a kind of logic to it. Although I should say

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Speaker 4: that the New York response, which was filed earlier today,

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Speaker 4: makes a fairly good point, which is to say that

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Speaker 4: this isn't really about immunity. If you'll recall, in the

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Speaker 4: immunity case in the Supreme Court last term, the Supreme

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Speaker 4: Court basically had three holdings. Holding number one was that

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Speaker 4: the president is absolutely immune for core executive functions. Holding

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Speaker 4: number two is the president is at least presumptively immune

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Speaker 4: for other official acts. And then holding number three was

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Speaker 4: that the president is not immune for unofficial acts, but

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Speaker 4: you can't use official act as evidence to prove unofficial acts. Here,

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Speaker 4: Trump's argument is that some of the testimony consisted of

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Speaker 4: official act and therefore shouldn't have been allowed to prove

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Speaker 4: the unofficial act. And what New York argues in its

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Speaker 4: response is that that piece of the holding from Trump

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Speaker 4: against the United States is not about immunity, because it's

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Speaker 4: a rule of evidence, and rules of evidence are necessarily

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Speaker 4: going to be implicated in the course of a trial,

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Speaker 4: not as an immunity to trial in the first place.

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Speaker 4: That brings me to the third argument that Trump makes,

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Speaker 4: and this I think is his best, although it's the

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Speaker 4: most open ended, and he says simply that in the

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Speaker 4: same way that a sitting president is thought to have

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Speaker 4: immunity against criminal prosecution while president, that immunity should also

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Speaker 4: extend to a elect. Now, this is a novel claim,

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Speaker 4: mostly because a president elect has never been involved defend

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Speaker 4: it in a criminal case before. But it's not a

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Speaker 4: crazy argument.

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Speaker 1: And if it's true, I guess you would.

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Speaker 4: Say, yeah, criminal proceedings have to stop immediately.

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Speaker 2: This is largely a symbolic sentencing, so dangers that Trump mentions,

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Speaker 2: like the burden on him to have this sentencing when

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Speaker 2: he's preparing for the transition, seem sort of bogus because

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Speaker 2: Judge Murschan said that he's not going to sentence him

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Speaker 2: to any time or any kind of penalty at all.

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Speaker 2: So it seems to me like this is really about

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Speaker 2: the stigma of Trump being the first felon to be

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Speaker 2: sworn in as president of the United States. Do his

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Speaker 2: arguments fail in that respect?

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Speaker 4: I think so.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: So, the argument for why you would extend presidential immunity

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Speaker 4: to a president elect is that presidential unity is designed

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Speaker 4: to enable the president to carry out the very important

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Speaker 4: work of the executive branch, which has vested just in

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Speaker 4: the president according to the unitary executive theory and so forth.

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Speaker 4: And you might say that the presidential transition, which the

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Speaker 4: president elect supervises, is of an equal stature, and so

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Speaker 4: it should extend and therefore president shouldn't be subject to

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Speaker 4: the kind of distractions that a criminal trial poses. But

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Speaker 4: as you suggest, right, there are no distractions here. If

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Speaker 4: Judgement Shaan sentences Trump to unconditional release, as he apparently

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Speaker 4: is planning to do tomorrow, nothing changes. It's not as

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Speaker 4: though he's going to have to go to Rikers Island

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Speaker 4: or something and can't oversee the transition. And so Trump's

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Speaker 4: argument has to be that every president elect is immune

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Speaker 4: from all criminal proceedings, even if the rationale for that

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Speaker 4: immunity doesn't seem to apply here. So it's a kind

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Speaker 4: of argument that says, here's a rule. Well, I realized

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Speaker 4: that the rule wasn't designed for people like me, but

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Speaker 4: you should announce the rule anyway, and I should get

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Speaker 4: the benefit of that rule.

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Speaker 2: Trump used the Supreme Court's ruling last year on presidential immunity,

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Speaker 2: and he delayed his sentencing to the point where he's

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Speaker 2: now eleven days away from inauguration. So should he be

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Speaker 2: able to take advantage of his own delay tactics and

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Speaker 2: now say, well, I shouldn't be sentenced at all.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean whether he should be is a different

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Speaker 4: question from whether he will be. I mean, all along,

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Speaker 4: that has been the strategy in all of the criminal

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Speaker 4: cases against Trump, which is that he delays as long

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Speaker 4: as possible. And then you know, at earlier points he

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Speaker 4: said things like, well, these cases are politically motivated against

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Speaker 4: me as a candidate for president, even though the only

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Speaker 4: reason that they were getting rolling during the pendency of

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Speaker 4: his candidacy was because he delayed them from starting earlier

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Speaker 4: when he wasn't yet a presidential candidate. So far, the

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Speaker 4: delaying tactics have worked. He's benefited from the delays that

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Speaker 4: he has caused. If he gets this stay from the

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Speaker 4: Supreme Court, then yeah, he will have been able to

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Speaker 4: benefit from the very delay that he was responsible for.

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Speaker 4: I should say though, that you know, in response to

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Speaker 4: your earlier question, it's not entirely clear why anybody cares

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Speaker 4: about this. If Trump is sentenced, right, nothing's going to

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Speaker 4: happen to him. And if he prevails ultimately on his

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Speaker 4: claim that the trial was marred by the introduction of

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Speaker 4: the Official Act, evidence that will result in the reversal

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Speaker 4: of the conviction. He also has some arguments under New

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Speaker 4: York law for reversing the conviction. The stigma, in other words,

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Speaker 4: would seem to be temporary. And on the other hand,

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Speaker 4: he's already been convicted as a felon, So delaying the

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Speaker 4: sentencing doesn't mean he is not a felon when he

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Speaker 4: takes the oath of office, because any reversal of the conviction,

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Speaker 4: if there is to be one on appeal, is at

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Speaker 4: least weeks, probably months off.

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Speaker 2: He's facing a court where there are three justices he appointed.

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Speaker 2: You talked about that unprecedented immunity decision that saved him

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Speaker 2: from having to go to trial in the federal criminal

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Speaker 2: case over the subversion of the twenty twenty election. They

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Speaker 2: also banned efforts to strike him from the ballot. So

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Speaker 2: you need five justices to grant to stay. How likely

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Speaker 2: is it that they would grant to stay at the sentencing?

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Speaker 4: You know, I don't what's the Yogi bara line. I

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Speaker 4: don't like to make predictions, especially about the future. I

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Speaker 4: don't like to make for didictions about this Supreme Court

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Speaker 4: because it's not really my expertise that you're asking their

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Speaker 4: a question about psychology as much as anything. I don't

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Speaker 4: think the grounds for the stay are very strong. But

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Speaker 4: then I thought the grounds for presidential immunity in which

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Speaker 4: he won were not very strong, and he got six

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Speaker 4: votes for that or five and two thirds, depending on

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Speaker 4: how you count Justice Barrett, who didn't agree with everything

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Speaker 4: that the majority did. So I think on the merits

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Speaker 4: this should be denied. But it wouldn't surprise me if

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Speaker 4: the Court granted the stay, And it would also not

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Speaker 4: surprise me if they granted the stay without writing much

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Speaker 4: of an opinion, because they might not want to, you know,

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Speaker 4: try to give reasons here, theory that they could give

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Speaker 4: them later and then it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: In some sense, Is this a chest of the Justice's

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Speaker 2: willingness to accommodate Trump in his second presidency.

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Speaker 4: I think it'll be perceived that way. But you know,

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Speaker 4: as I say that, the stakes here are pretty low,

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Speaker 4: and so you know, the real test of that will

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Speaker 4: be when one of his substantive policies that has very

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Speaker 4: serious implications gets up there. So, for example, if he

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Speaker 4: tries through executive action or frankly, even through a statute

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Speaker 4: to end birthright citizenship, which is protected by the Fourteenth Amendment,

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Speaker 4: that'll be a test. I think that's a test the

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Speaker 4: Supreme Court is likely to pass because it's just so

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Speaker 4: clear that the Constitution extends birthright citizenship. But some of

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Speaker 4: the other policies involving detention potentially of undocumented immigrants, involving

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Speaker 4: other sort of forceful executive actions. Those I think could

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Speaker 4: be the more important tests.

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Speaker 2: And he'll have four years to test them. As you know,

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Speaker 2: Democrats have questioned the objectivity of Justices Clarence Thomas and

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Speaker 2: Samuel leto and Alda revealed in a statement that he

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Speaker 2: spoke by phone this week with Trump about a job

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Speaker 2: candidate for the new administration, but they didn't discuss pending

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Speaker 2: cases or any other Supreme Court matters involving Trump. Are

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Speaker 2: there any ethical problems with that?

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Speaker 4: I have a fairly idiosyncratic view about these questions of

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Speaker 4: legal ethics. That is, I think that a lot of

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Speaker 4: the things that Justices Thomas and Alito and maybe some

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Speaker 4: other justices have done over the last few years, and

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Speaker 4: that we've learned about from some of the pro publica reporting,

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Speaker 4: are highly problematic. I don't really think it makes much difference.

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Speaker 4: That is to say, Justices Thomas and Alito are extremely conservative.

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Speaker 4: Their views are sort of baked in and by their

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Speaker 4: ideology more so than by anything that's going to happen

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Speaker 4: in a conversation, so that it's hard for me to

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Speaker 4: imagine that a conversation between Trump and Alito is going

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Speaker 4: to sway Alito's vote one way or the other. But

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Speaker 4: that's partly because I think that Alito is just inclined

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Speaker 4: to vote in ways that would make Trump happy. Anyway,

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Speaker 4: I don't think there is a prohibition on a president

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Speaker 4: talking to a justice about something that isn't a matter

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Speaker 4: pending before the court. I mean, you know, a lot

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Speaker 4: of the justices will attend the State of the Union.

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Speaker 4: A personnel matter. Strikes me as not especially problematic. I

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Speaker 4: think if this were someone other than Justice Alito, any

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Speaker 4: justice other than Alito, or maybe Thomas, and if it

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Speaker 4: were a different president, I don't think it would be

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Speaker 4: a big deal at all.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Mike Best. Professor Michael Dwarf of Cornell

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Speaker 2: Law School. Coming up, Trump's vowed to undo Biden's ban

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Speaker 2: on offshore drilling in most federal waters. This is bloomberg.

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Speaker 5: President Biden's actions yesterday on offshore drilling. Banning offshore drilling

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Speaker 5: will not stand. I will reverse it immediately. It'll be

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Speaker 5: done immediately, and we will drill, baby drill. We're going

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Speaker 5: to be drilling in a lot of other locations, and

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Speaker 5: the energy costs are going to come way down. They'll

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Speaker 5: be brought down to a very low level.

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Speaker 2: But reversing that ban will be difficult, if not impossible.

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Speaker 2: President Biden is racing to shure up his environmental legacy

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Speaker 2: before Donald Trump takes office. In a last minute effort

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Speaker 2: to thwart Trump's drill baby drill intentions, on Monday, Biden

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Speaker 2: banned all future oil and gas drilling along most of

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Speaker 2: the US coastline, protecting more than six hundred and twenty

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Speaker 2: five million acres of federal waters. Biden you section twelve

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Speaker 2: of the Outer Continental Shelf LANs Act, which gives presidents

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Speaker 2: broad authority to ban drilling in federal waters and contains

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Speaker 2: no language giving subsequent presidents the authority to revoke those bands.

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Speaker 2: Joining me is environmental law expert Pat Parento, a professor

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Speaker 2: at the Vermont Law and Graduate School. Pat Trump wants

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Speaker 2: to reverse Biden's ban on drilling in those federal waters.

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Speaker 2: Is there authority for him to do that?

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Speaker 1: So we have one decision on this, and it's a

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Speaker 1: lower court decision from the district court in the Northern

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Speaker 1: District of California, and this district court ruled that the

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Speaker 1: OCSLI does not provide for a subsequent president to revoke

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Speaker 1: a withdrawal from a prior president. So Trump, under that

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Speaker 1: ruling would not be able to reverse Biden's withdrawal. Only

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Speaker 1: Congress can do that, said this lower court. But again

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Speaker 1: it's a lower court decision, and people disagree, lawyers disagree,

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Speaker 1: of course, about whether it's binding. Certainly isn't binding beyond

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Speaker 1: you know, the district court in California. The real question is,

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Speaker 1: you know, is this something that might interest the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court because it does involve a very massive withdrawal of

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Speaker 1: ocean waters for a oil and gas development, and you know,

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Speaker 1: people like Chief Justice Roberts expressed concerns about the scope

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Speaker 1: of the president's authority under the Antiquities Act, which we

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Speaker 1: discussed before, to establish these large national monuments, which of

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Speaker 1: course Biden has done as well. So it's possible that

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Speaker 1: this is the kind of issue that might find its

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Speaker 1: way to the Supreme Court. Certainly there's going to be

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Speaker 1: litigation over it. Congress is also considering legislation to revoke

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Speaker 1: Biden's withdrawal, and of course Congress could do that narrow

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Speaker 1: margins in both houses, So we have no idea how

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Speaker 1: that's going to sugar off in the end. But right

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Speaker 1: now my view is Trump does not have the authority

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Speaker 1: to revoke that withdrawal.

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Speaker 2: He wants to drill baby drill in the Arctic National

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Speaker 2: Wildlife Refuge, but the Interior Department has tried twice in

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Speaker 2: four years to auction off oil and gas leases there

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Speaker 2: and there hasn't been a single bidder.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the market is flooded, is the answer. You know,

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Speaker 1: we are at record levels of production of oil and gas,

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Speaker 1: so for right now, there's no demand. That could change.

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Speaker 1: But for right now, this isn't the only sale. There

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Speaker 1: was another one on the Alaska coast where there were

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Speaker 1: no bidders, and finally the state of Alaska stepped in

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Speaker 1: and put together a kind of a rough coalition of

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Speaker 1: bidders that you know, bid on a smaller portion than

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Speaker 1: was offered. So the market is soft, it's flooded, and

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Speaker 1: I don't anticipate that there's actually going to be much

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Speaker 1: demand in the near future for oil and gas. Contrary

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Speaker 1: to the drill baby drill mandate. You know, you can't

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Speaker 1: order companies to bid on these things.

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Speaker 2: So is it contrary to his climate initiatives that the

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Speaker 2: US has become the largest oil and gas producer in history.

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Speaker 2: During Biden's term, you would.

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Speaker 1: Think that irony wouldn't be lost on at least most

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Speaker 1: people seem to be lost on the Trump crowd and

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Speaker 1: the incoming Secretary of Energy, Governor Bergham, who also thinks

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Speaker 1: that we're going to ramp up oil and gas as

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Speaker 1: well as coal development. I guess, but the same thing

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Speaker 1: is true with coal now. In other parts of the world,

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Speaker 1: coal is booming, but not in the United States. We're

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Speaker 1: not building new coal plants. It's hard enough to keep

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Speaker 1: the ones running in competition with gas and in some

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Speaker 1: parts of the country wind and solar. So I don't

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Speaker 1: know where they think the market is for this drill,

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Speaker 1: baby drill energy dominance agenda, but we'll find out.

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Speaker 2: This week, Biden established two new national monuments in California

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Speaker 2: to honor Native American tribes. Together, they'll protect more than

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Speaker 2: eight hundred and forty eight thousand acres of public land

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Speaker 2: from drilling and mining. He's established ten new national monuments,

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Speaker 2: expanded two existing national monuments, and restored three more, and

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Speaker 2: the White House says his protection of national monuments has

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Speaker 2: safeguarded nearly nine million acres of federal lends and waters.

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Speaker 2: Can Trump reverse.

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Speaker 1: Those that's under the Antiquities Act, And the answer so

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Speaker 1: far is no. There is some president for redrawing the

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Speaker 1: boundaries of some of these national monuments. Sometimes that's been

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Speaker 1: done by Congress. Sometimes that actually has been done by

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Speaker 1: subsequent administrations. But we haven't seen what Trump is proposing

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Speaker 1: to do, which is either wholesale reduction by you know,

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Speaker 1: up to in the case of the Bearziers Monument in Utah,

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Speaker 1: something like eighty percent reduction, which would essentially destroy, you know,

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Speaker 1: the designation that Biden and his predecessor Obama had issued. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: there's no law that says that a subsequent president, in

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Speaker 1: this case Trump has that kind of authority to reverse

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Speaker 1: what prior presidents have done under the Antiquities Act. But

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Speaker 1: that's one where the Chief Justice Roberts has signaled an

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Speaker 1: interest in at least looking at that question, so, you know,

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Speaker 1: put a pin in it. That's one that could be

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Speaker 1: ticketed for the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 2: So what happened when during his first term Trump shrianked

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Speaker 2: the Bears Years and Grants Escalonta national monuments. Was that litigated?

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Speaker 1: It was litigated. There was never a decision by the

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Speaker 1: time that it was working its way through the courts,

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Speaker 1: Biden won the twenty twenty election, and you know, quickly

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Speaker 1: reversed the Trump order revoking the earlier designation. So we

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Speaker 1: never got a ruling on that conflict the first round,

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Speaker 1: I would say, of litigation over bears ears in some

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Speaker 1: of the other monuments. This time around, I suppose there's

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Speaker 1: a greater likelihood of getting some kind of judicial decisions.

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Speaker 1: And then the question is, you know, will it be appealed, yes,

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Speaker 1: and will the Supreme Court take it? We don't know.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about Biden's Legacy's he going to go down

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Speaker 2: as you know, the best president for parteiding the environment.

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Speaker 1: Boy, it looked that way, didn't it. I mean, if

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Speaker 1: you look at passage. Of the three big bills were

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Speaker 1: the initial infrastructure, Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill, to some extent, the

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Speaker 1: Chips Bill because that's key to some of the clean

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Speaker 1: air energy sources we need. And of course the big

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Speaker 1: one was the Inflation Reduction Act. And now I see

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Speaker 1: all kinds of commentary about, well, you know, it may

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Speaker 1: be that a lot of what Biden did will be

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Speaker 1: time limited, it won't carry forward into the future. Some

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Speaker 1: of what he did will be undone by this Republican Congress,

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Speaker 1: who's expressed all kinds of opposition to what Biden did.

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Speaker 1: Although when you look at the benefits of the Inflation

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Speaker 1: Reduction Act, eighty percent of the benefits are in Republican districts.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of hard to really measure what the

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Speaker 1: final impact of what Biden did, my own view is, given,

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Speaker 1: you know, the realities, the political realities of what he

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Speaker 1: was facing. He did an enormous amount. He did do

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Speaker 1: more than any other president. Whether that, you know, turns

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Speaker 1: the tides so to speak, on climate is certainly an

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Speaker 1: open question. And even if everything he did panned out,

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Speaker 1: it isn't enough. We know that, I mean, the problem

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Speaker 1: that we're facing is so monumental, so overwhelming, that even

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Speaker 1: those major accomplishments pale in comparison to what's actually needed,

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Speaker 1: not only in the United States, but of course globally.

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Speaker 2: Explain the Inflation Reduction Act, which I think is not

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Speaker 2: a great name for this law.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is clearly the most significant climate legislation at

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Speaker 3: the national level that we've seen. In fact, I would

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Speaker 3: say probably it's one of the most significant in the world.

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Speaker 3: It talks about investing three hundred and sixty billion dollars

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Speaker 3: in renewable energy, wind and solar and electric vehicles and

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Speaker 3: buildings and heat pumps and all kinds of things. A

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Speaker 3: lot of benefits for its primary mechanism is tax credits

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Speaker 3: and other kinds of incentives. So it's not a regulatory

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Speaker 3: program at all. It's quite the contrary. It's using the

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Speaker 3: marketplace and it's designed to leverage even substantially more private capital,

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Speaker 3: and it's doing that. In fact, it's doing it in

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Speaker 3: Republican districts all across the country. It will be interesting

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Speaker 3: to see how the new Congress and the House is

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Speaker 3: going to deal with Trump's promise to freeze all further

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Speaker 3: funding under the Inflation Reduction Act and try to quote

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Speaker 3: claw back some of the money that's already been obligated.

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Speaker 3: This is going to come down to some legal questions

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Speaker 3: about how much of the money is Biden able to

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Speaker 3: actually put under contracts, you know, in other words, lock

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Speaker 3: it up through legal mechanisms before his time runs out.

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Speaker 3: And I know the administration from all the accounts is

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Speaker 3: working feviously, night and day to push as much of

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Speaker 3: that money out the door and get it under legally

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Speaker 3: binding a green that Trump can't easily repeal or revoke.

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Speaker 3: Of course, with the Republicans in control of both the

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Speaker 3: House and the Senate by slim majorities, Even so, I

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Speaker 3: expect to see legislation introduced to try to quote claw

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Speaker 3: back some of the authorization that hasn't been completely obligated,

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Speaker 3: and maybe even some that has been obligated. Whether the

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Speaker 3: Republicans have the muscle to push all that through both

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Speaker 3: houses is an open question because of the close margins.

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Speaker 3: But I think it's fair to say that the promise

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Speaker 3: of the Inflation Reduction Act to really move the needle

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Speaker 3: on transitions to cleaner energy and transportation is going to

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Speaker 3: be stalled, if not thwarted altogether. And we certainly won't

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Speaker 3: meet the commitments we've made under the Paris Agreement, And

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Speaker 3: of course Trump will undoubtedly withdraw its from the Paris

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Speaker 3: Agreement once again.

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Speaker 2: Do you think on this second go round the Trump

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Speaker 2: administration will be more practiced in how to overturn these

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Speaker 2: regulations in the proper way?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Their track record in court was one of the

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Speaker 1: worst of any administration in history. They lost eighty percent

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Speaker 1: of the cases in which they were challenged. You have

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Speaker 1: to believe they'll do better this time, that they'll hire

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Speaker 1: and bring in to the administration really accomplished lawyers, managers,

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Speaker 1: people who know government, you know, how to get things

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Speaker 1: done in Washington. And that's no small thing. But honestly,

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Speaker 1: given his worst instincts and given his demand that everybody

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Speaker 1: be loyal, do what I want, regardless of whether it's

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Speaker 1: right or wrong, or regardless of what you think about it,

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Speaker 1: you know, my view is they're going to make a

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Speaker 1: lot of big mistakes. Look at what he just said about, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I have the authority on day one to reverse Biden's

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Speaker 1: withdrawal of the ocean waters. He doesn't have that authority.

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Speaker 1: He may think he does, but the course will decide

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Speaker 1: that right. So, if that's what happens, if people are

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Speaker 1: going to have to follow his order right over the cliff,

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Speaker 1: so to speak, then they're going to repeat the mistakes

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Speaker 1: they made the first time. Our laws, and you know,

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Speaker 1: to some extent people who complain about the dense regulatory

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Speaker 1: environment we live with, it's true, it is dense, but

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Speaker 1: it's law. You know, you can't just wave your arms

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Speaker 1: around and make it go away. There are procedures that

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Speaker 1: have to be followed, and yes, there are questions about

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Speaker 1: agency authority under these various statutes. And yes, the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court has said we will no longer defer to agency's

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Speaker 1: interpretation of their authority when it's unclear will make that decision.

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Speaker 1: But that's the case by case kind of analysis and determination,

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Speaker 1: right that takes time more than four years. Frankly, you know,

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Speaker 1: the average big case anyway, environmental case can easily take

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Speaker 1: four years to work its way through the court system.

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Speaker 1: So this idea that they're going to be able to

436
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 1: just turn everything upside down on day one, it's just

437
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: not going to happen.

438
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 2: Next how Mexico's president troll Trump over his promise to

439
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 2: change the name of the Gulf of Mexico. This is Bloomberg.

440
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 2: President Joe Biden is racing to shure up his environmental

441
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 2: legacy before Donald Trump takes office. Just this week, he

442
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 2: banned all future oil and gas drilling along most of

443
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 2: the US coastline, protecting more than six hundred and twenty

444
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 2: five million acres of federal waters, and he established two

445
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 2: new national monuments in California to honor Native American tribes.

446
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 2: Trump has vowed to undo Biden's ban on offshore drilling.

447
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 2: He's also a call for the repeal of the Inflation

448
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 2: Reduction Act, Biden's signature climate law, and he wants to

449
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 2: get rid of virtually all of the Biden administration's climate

450
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 2: change regulations. But those moves will all face litigation, and

451
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 2: litigation takes time. I've been talking to Professor Pat Parento

452
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 2: of the Vermont Line Law and Graduate School. Pat, how

453
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:08,199
Speaker 2: long do these environmental challenges usually take in court? And

454
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 2: will the Trump administration be helped by the Supreme Court's

455
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 2: rulings cutting back on agency power?

456
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,239
Speaker 1: You know, to some extent people who complain about the

457
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: dense regulatory environment we live with, it's true it is dense,

458
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: but it's law. You know. You can't just wave your

459
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: arms around and make it go away. There are procedures

460
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: that have to be followed. And yes, there are questions

461
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: about agency authority under these various statutes. And yes, the

462
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: Supreme Court has said we will no longer defer to

463
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: agency's interpretation of their authority. When it's unclear, we'll make

464
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: that decision. But that's the case by case kind of

465
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: analysis and determination, right that takes time more than four years. Frankly,

466
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: you know, the average big case anyway, environmental case can

467
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: easily take four years to work its way through the

468
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: court system. So this idea that they're going to be

469
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: able to just turn everything upside down on day one,

470
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: it's just not going to happen.

471
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 2: And when the Trump administration wants to undo a Biden rule,

472
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 2: will they have to go through the formal notice and

473
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 2: comment rulemaking process to repeal and rewrite the Biden regulations.

474
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 3: In Trump one, EPA and several other agencies, Interior Department

475
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 3: failed to follow the requirement of the Administrative Procedure Act

476
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 3: and found that they lost about eighty some percent of

477
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 3: the cases in which they were challenged this time around.

478
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 3: They may be smarter about that. You'd probably think they

479
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 3: would be smarter. But if they're in a hurry, if

480
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 3: they're in a rush to show progress on this deregulatory program,

481
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 3: they're probably going to be cutting some corners and skipping

482
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 3: some steps that are required by law, including notice and comment.

483
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 3: And you know, the environmental community is geared and ready

484
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 3: to go. They know the playbook, and they're beefing up

485
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 3: their staffs. They're hiring more lawyers, they're going to be

486
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 3: doing more fundraising. You know, the the Ara Club alone

487
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 3: filed over four hundred lawsuits against Trump attempts to roll

488
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 3: back rules. When you think about Earth Justice, the Natural

489
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 3: Resources Defense Counsel, and many other major environmental groups, they

490
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 3: are going to be challenging Trump's and Administrator Zelden's attempts

491
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 3: to repeal and revoke these rules. It remains to be

492
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 3: seen how that's going to all play out in court.

493
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 3: We know there are a lot of Trump judges on

494
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 3: the federal bench, but there's still going to be dozens

495
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 3: of vacancies on the federal bench and maybe more over

496
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 3: the four years of the next Trump administration. So you know,

497
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 3: the prospect for how these these attempts to deregulate are

498
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 3: going to play out in court, it's an open question

499
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 3: right now. Lots of litigation, for sure, wins and losses

500
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 3: both ways, for sure, But you know Trump can't do

501
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 3: this with the snap of a finger. A lot of

502
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 3: it is going to have to go through court before

503
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 3: it's resolved.

504
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 2: I want to touch on the Endangered Species Act. The

505
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 2: Biden administration had restored some protections that the first Trump

506
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 2: administration had rolled back, and there's been a flurry of

507
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 2: last minute activity on endangered Species by the Biden administration,

508
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 2: including keeping the grizzly bear as a threatened species through

509
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: much of the Western United States. Do you think the

510
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 2: second Trump administration will take aim at the Endangered Species

511
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 2: Act again?

512
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the Endangered Species factor is in serious trouble.

513
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 3: That's the law that I know, have been involved with

514
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 3: for literally fifty years, and I litigated some of the

515
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 3: early cases under the Act. So both in Congress, you know,

516
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 3: and through the administration, I think the Act is in

517
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 3: serious trouble. Even though it's highly popular with the public,

518
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 3: at least when you pull the public on do they

519
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,479
Speaker 3: want to see strong protections for endangered species. You know,

520
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 3: there's a very high percentage sometimes eighty or even ninety

521
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 3: percent public, you know, support for protecting endangered species in

522
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 3: their habitat. But you know, anytime that that interferes with

523
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 3: other commodity uses, whether it's oil and gas or mining

524
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 3: for copper or other valuable minerals, or grazing or any

525
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 3: any other major economic interest, you know it's going to

526
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 3: lose out. It's one of those laws because it's trying

527
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 3: to protect the entire sort of spectrum of species all

528
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 3: the way down to plants and insects, And of course,

529
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 3: when you think of insects, you think, well, why are

530
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 3: we protecting insects? But when you think about pollinators, that's

531
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 3: one good reason why we protect insects. There are a

532
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 3: keystone species for a lot of food crops, and you

533
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 3: can go down the list. There's lots of reasons, economic

534
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 3: reasons why protect and species makes sense and why protecting

535
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 3: their habitat is really another way of protecting the communities

536
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 3: that live within these areas and helping with climate resilience

537
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 3: and dealing with floods and storms and droughts and wildfires

538
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 3: and all the rest of that. The healthier your ecosystem,

539
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 3: the better able you are to withstand some of the

540
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 3: impacts from climate change. So all of this now is

541
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 3: going to be debated and argued, but it's sure scenes clear.

542
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 3: And you know protection for species which has been not

543
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 3: working out very well. I mean, we're still losing an

544
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 3: awful lot of habitat every year necessary for protecting these species.

545
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 3: You know, looks like that trend line is also going

546
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 3: to be in the negative as well. States again can

547
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 3: step up if they're willing to and do a lot

548
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 3: more of this land conservation work, but you know, they're

549
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 3: also under a lot of political stress from their constituents

550
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 3: to open up public lands for even further extractions and

551
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 3: in development. So right now, it's a pretty hazy picture,

552
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 3: I would say, for the future of a lot of

553
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 3: these species that are really just clinging to existence and

554
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 3: rely on government efforts to turn the trend of extinction

555
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 3: around into a more positive direction.

556
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 2: We talked about how Trump's promise at his press conference

557
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 2: on Monday to reverse Biden's sweeping ban on oil and

558
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 2: natural gas drilling in US coastal waters immediately won't happen

559
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 2: immediately and may not happen at all. Listen to what

560
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 2: else he promised at that press conference.

561
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 5: A future date pretty soon, we're going to change because

562
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 5: we do most of the work there and it's ours,

563
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,240
Speaker 5: we're going to be changed. You're sort of the opposite

564
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 5: of Biden, where he's closing everything up, essentially getting rid

565
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 5: of fifty to sixty trillion dollars worth of assets. We're

566
00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 5: going to be changing the name of the Gulf of Mexico.

567
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 5: Go to the Gulf of America, which has a beautiful

568
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 5: ring that covers a lot of territory. The Gulf of

569
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 5: America what a beautiful name, and it's appropriate. It's appropriate.

570
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 3: Well.

571
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 2: Mexico's President, Claudia Schenbaum, responded sarcastically to Trump's proposal to

572
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 2: change the name of the Gulf of Mexico at her

573
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 2: daily press briefing.

574
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 6: Mexico is Nai Nazio, suns perro, eltient mammos, America Mexicana, y.

575
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 3: So.

576
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 2: Standing before a global map, she proposed that North America

577
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 2: be renamed America Mexicana or Mexican America because a founding

578
00:35:54,320 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 2: document dating from eighteen fourteen that preceded Mexico's constitution referred

579
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 2: to it that way. That sounds nice, no, she added, pat,

580
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 2: I have to say that this Trump suggestion bewildered me.

581
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: It's been called the Gulf of Mexico for at least

582
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 2: four hundred years. Who has the power to rename a

583
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 2: body of water that touches several countries?

584
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 3: Right?

585
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: There is no central authority for that, not globally or internationally,

586
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: and not even domestically. There is an Office of Mapping

587
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: in Cartography in the Department of Interiors, which keeps track

588
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 1: of the names of various water bodies all over the world,

589
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: and there are disputes about, for example, whether it's the

590
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: Persian Gulf or the Arabian Gulf. And this office actually

591
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: sometimes maintains dual names of water bodies. But there's no

592
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 1: one authority to say, yes, we can change the name

593
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: of the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America.

594
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, maybe Trump will issue some kind

595
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: of order declaring that will it have any legal authority? No?

596
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: Will it make any difference? No? Will it reduce the

597
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,240
Speaker 1: price of eggs? No, it's a waste of time.

598
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 2: It may be a waste of time. But Representative Marjorie

599
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 2: Taylor Green, Republican of Georgia, said that she plans to

600
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 2: introduce legislation to change the name of the Gulf of

601
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 2: Mexico through an Act of Congress. She wrote on x

602
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 2: I've directed my staff to immediately begin drafting legislation to

603
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 2: change the name of the Gulf of Mexico to the

604
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 2: Gulf of America. This is important to begin funding the

605
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 2: changing of maps for all agencies within the federal government,

606
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 2: like the Federal Aviation Administration and the military. So more

607
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 2: to come on this. Thanks so much, Pat, It's always

608
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 2: a pleasure. That's Professor Pat PARENTO of their mood, law

609
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 2: and graduate school. And that's it for this edition of

610
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 2: The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always get the

611
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 2: latest legal news. Honor Bloomberg Law podcasts. You can find

612
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Speaker 2: them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at www Dot Bloomberg

613
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 2: dot com, slash podcast Slash Law, and remember to tune

614
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 2: into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight at ten pm

615
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 2: Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso and you're listening to

616
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