Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: When the President of the United States says that he
Speaker 1: can't win an election of every eligible citizen votes, we
Speaker 1: should take him at his word and test his theory.
Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both,
Speaker 1: where I get into some of today's biggest questions with
Speaker 1: people I admire and find fascinating. Today we're talking about
Speaker 1: an important, timely critical subject, voting. Now you might guess
Speaker 1: I would be pretty focused on voting, but I would
Speaker 1: be I think even if I'd never run for office
Speaker 1: or held it, because when you get right down to it,
Speaker 1: it is a power that every one of us has,
Speaker 1: no matter who we are, where we live, how much
Speaker 1: money we make, and if we don't exercise it, we
Speaker 1: leave the field to people that don't agree with us.
Speaker 1: So protecting the right to vote is an issue that
Speaker 1: gets to the heart of every their issue that I
Speaker 1: care about and all of the progress that we need
Speaker 1: to make together. Today I'm talking to two guests who
Speaker 1: really understand the power of voting. Stacy Abrahams, who you
Speaker 1: just heard, the woman who should be governor of Georgia,
Speaker 1: because let's not kid ourselves her election against Brian Kemp
Speaker 1: was marred by blatant voter suppression, so she founded an
Speaker 1: organization called Fair Fight to protect the right to vote
Speaker 1: in Georgia and around the country. But first I'm talking
Speaker 1: with John Legend. You know, if you watch the Democratic
Speaker 1: National Convention in August, the Virtual Convention, you'll remember this
Speaker 1: incredible performance. One day one look alicaus you will be
Speaker 1: as you'll be. Oh. John wrote that song Glory with
Speaker 1: the rapper Common for the movie Selma's. It won the
Speaker 1: Best Original Song at the Academy Awards in John has
Speaker 1: also won multiple Grammy Awards for his music to mention
Speaker 1: an Emmy and Tony, making him the fifteen of only
Speaker 1: sixteen people who have an EGOT and the only black
Speaker 1: man who has achieved that Emmy, Grammy, Oscar Tony distinction.
Speaker 1: He's also a very proud dad. He and his amazing
Speaker 1: wife Chrissy Teagan have two wonderful kids, Luna and Miles,
Speaker 1: and another on the way. But the reason I'm talking
Speaker 1: to him today is because he's also a really strong
Speaker 1: voice on issues of justice and voting. Last week, he
Speaker 1: launched Free the Vote to raise money to pay the
Speaker 1: fees and finds preventing over one million former felons in
Speaker 1: Florida from sting their balance. I'm thrilled to be talking
Speaker 1: with John Heve, my friend. Always a joy to see you.
Speaker 1: I'm still smiling about the dinner we had at your
Speaker 1: house pre covid um and and pre your latest news.
Speaker 1: So give me give me a quick check in on
Speaker 1: the whole family. Well, of course, Chrisy is pregnant with
Speaker 1: our third child. She's having definitely her roughest pregnancy yet.
Speaker 1: It's been a bit of a physical challenge for her.
Speaker 1: Our doctor has her on bed rest right now, and uh,
Speaker 1: we're just you know, taking good care of her. And
Speaker 1: I'm trying to be home as much as possible and
Speaker 1: help her as much as possible so she doesn't have
Speaker 1: to move around and she can take good care of
Speaker 1: that that little growing baby inside of her. Well, give
Speaker 1: her a big virtual hug. You have been a staunch
Speaker 1: supporter of not only candidates but causes. Where does that
Speaker 1: come from, John? I mean, when you were young, did
Speaker 1: you have some experiences that you really felt prepared you
Speaker 1: or motivated you or was this something that you came
Speaker 1: to later in life. Well, when I was young, my
Speaker 1: parents first of all impressed on us that success wasn't
Speaker 1: defined by how much you do for yourself, but it
Speaker 1: was defined by how much you do for other people.
Speaker 1: Part of that was kind of a Christian ethos, but
Speaker 1: also just being good human beings. No religion has a
Speaker 1: monopoly on that concept of being philanthropic, being generous, being humble,
Speaker 1: caring about people who are struggling and and need your help,
Speaker 1: but it came to us through a Christian ethos. They
Speaker 1: also homeschooled us when we were kids for some of
Speaker 1: our grade school years, and one of the things that
Speaker 1: we would do as a family was we would go
Speaker 1: to the county Public Library and we would kind of
Speaker 1: be let loose on the library and we would go
Speaker 1: and find whatever books interested us. And for me, from
Speaker 1: a very young age, I always was interested in politics, leadership,
Speaker 1: people who fought for justice. I particularly was interested in
Speaker 1: act civil rights leaders and abolitionists who looks like me
Speaker 1: and also were people who put their lives on the
Speaker 1: line to fight for the rights of others. So I've
Speaker 1: always had that conception, that ideal that those kinds of
Speaker 1: people are the people we should look up to and
Speaker 1: treasure in our society, and that if I had any
Speaker 1: sort of success in life, I would try to use
Speaker 1: it to be one of those kinds of people who
Speaker 1: spoke out when I saw something, jus who tried to
Speaker 1: fight for people whose voices are often overlooked. I wrote
Speaker 1: an essay when I was fifteen years old in high
Speaker 1: school that said exactly that that I I planned to
Speaker 1: make Black history by becoming a successful musician and using
Speaker 1: my success as an artist to get back and fight
Speaker 1: for equality and justice in this world. And That's what
Speaker 1: I've been doing since you were fifteen. Where did you
Speaker 1: grow up? I grew up in Springfield, Ohio, a small
Speaker 1: city between Dayton and Columbus. One. Wow, I love I
Speaker 1: love that story about your parents dedication and determination to
Speaker 1: you know, really set you on the right path. Did
Speaker 1: you start being musical and singing in church as so
Speaker 1: many people have, Yeah? Absolutely so. I grew up in
Speaker 1: a Pentecostal church and my grandmother was the church organists,
Speaker 1: my grandfather was our pastor, my mother was the choir director.
Speaker 1: My dad was a deacon and taught Sunday school and
Speaker 1: also saying in the choir and played the drums sometimes.
Speaker 1: And so I grew up around a lot of music
Speaker 1: and a lot of church, and that was my musical
Speaker 1: foundation and remains a huge part of the story of
Speaker 1: who I am as a musician. Well, let's talk about
Speaker 1: your life as an activist, and certainly as someone who's
Speaker 1: been involved in and supportive of political campaigns and causes.
Speaker 1: I know that you've been particularly involved over the years
Speaker 1: in protecting voting rights, making sure anybody eligible can actually
Speaker 1: vote in practice, not just on paper. And you combined
Speaker 1: your deep concern about incarceration and the injustices in the
Speaker 1: criminal and penal systems with a real commitment to something
Speaker 1: called the Florida Rights Restoration Coalition, and your initiative Free
Speaker 1: America launched something called free the Vote. And maybe you
Speaker 1: could describe for our listeners you know how all of
Speaker 1: this fit together for you. So let's start with how
Speaker 1: I got interested in this issue. First of all, Um,
Speaker 1: like many black and brown people in this country, I
Speaker 1: had relatives and neighbors and community members who had gotten
Speaker 1: caught up in the criminal justice system, including people as
Speaker 1: close to me as my mother, but also good friends
Speaker 1: that I went to high school with. Some of them
Speaker 1: were in prison for a significant period of time. And
Speaker 1: when you're a kid. I think your parents rightfully teach
Speaker 1: you if you just don't get in trouble, then you
Speaker 1: won't have to worry about those kinds of things. But
Speaker 1: as you start to understand the system a little better,
Speaker 1: you understand that it's not as cut and dry as that,
Speaker 1: and it's not as fair as that sounds. For far
Speaker 1: too many people, there's a different criminal justice system depending
Speaker 1: on your poverty or lack thereof, depending on the color
Speaker 1: of your skin, and how you're perceived by police and
Speaker 1: by judges and by juries. All those things affect so much,
Speaker 1: and we've come to think that these sentences that are
Speaker 1: prescribed by law are just the way they are. They're
Speaker 1: almost like their biblical or so so fixed that we
Speaker 1: can't imagine an alternative. But what we have to realize
Speaker 1: is those were all political choices that were made, and
Speaker 1: they don't have to be this way. We're the most
Speaker 1: incarcerated country in the world, so we've made policy decisions
Speaker 1: that have been inhumane, and the consequences of that have
Speaker 1: been felt throughout our society. And not only that. Every
Speaker 1: time we've made the choice to spend more on policing,
Speaker 1: more on jails, more on prisons, there's an oper tunity
Speaker 1: costs because we're spending less on all the things that
Speaker 1: would help prevent crime, help make people feel more safe,
Speaker 1: help people live healthier, more productive lives in every other way.
Speaker 1: And so Free America was born out of me kind
Speaker 1: of discovering how big this issue was and how unjust
Speaker 1: it was, through reading, through listening, through talking to folks,
Speaker 1: and through there just the gut feeling of what I've
Speaker 1: seen my family and neighbors go through, and then starting
Speaker 1: to organize around listening to other people and trying to
Speaker 1: find out where we could get involved to help. So
Speaker 1: we went around and visited jails and prisons and immigration
Speaker 1: detention centers and juvenile facilities. We also sat with district attorneys,
Speaker 1: We sat with corrections officers, we sat with all kinds
Speaker 1: of folks who had a stake in the system, and
Speaker 1: everybody told us that it wasn't working, it wasn't humane,
Speaker 1: it wasn't right, and we needed to change it. And so,
Speaker 1: coordinating with organizations like the Florida Rights Restoration Coalition and
Speaker 1: other grassroots organizing efforts, a lot of them lad by
Speaker 1: formally incarcerated people, we started to figure out initiatives that
Speaker 1: we wanted to get behind initiatives. We wanted to uplift, amplify,
Speaker 1: get out there in the public conversation. I know, for example,
Speaker 1: you went to um A court hearing in Miami back
Speaker 1: in the fall, like last year, I think November, to
Speaker 1: watch former felons have their right to vote restored, which
Speaker 1: must have been incredibly Oh. I was crying a lot
Speaker 1: of that day because just think about how many people
Speaker 1: take voting for granted, how many people just can't be
Speaker 1: bothered or or you know, there's all kinds of reasons
Speaker 1: people don't vote, and some of them are are because
Speaker 1: of voter suppression by the state. But you could just
Speaker 1: tell that these people wanted to be part of society again.
Speaker 1: They had made a mistake most of them. Most of
Speaker 1: them were a lot older, and if anybody knows anything
Speaker 1: about crime, most people's period of being prone to crime
Speaker 1: is pretty much over by the time there. But too
Speaker 1: often our society punishes them for so long, well after
Speaker 1: the mistakes that they've made, and when they're completely new
Speaker 1: people by that point. So some of these people were
Speaker 1: forty five, fifty fifty five and hadn't been able to
Speaker 1: vote for decades. The founder of f R R C.
Speaker 1: Desma Meat. He is a returning citizen himself and had
Speaker 1: committed a felony when he was young, and he hadn't
Speaker 1: voted for thirty years. And these people want to be
Speaker 1: a part of society again. They want to contribute. Desmond's
Speaker 1: doing all these amazing things in this community, one of
Speaker 1: the most exemplary citizens we could possibly imagine, but he
Speaker 1: wasn't able to vote until this year. Voting is not
Speaker 1: a privilege, it's a right, and it's a part of
Speaker 1: being a citizen of this country because all of us
Speaker 1: are affected by the laws that are written by our representatives.
Speaker 1: All of us are affected by the decisions of our executives,
Speaker 1: and all of us should have a say and who
Speaker 1: those people are. Even if we've made mistakes in our lives,
Speaker 1: even if we've harmed people in our lives, it's not
Speaker 1: a right that should be taken away. You know. It's
Speaker 1: interesting because after the amendment passed in Florida, the Republican
Speaker 1: legislature tried to, you know, basically obstructed, didn't they. I Mean,
Speaker 1: they said, okay, fine, you've served your time in prison,
Speaker 1: that's okay. But some of you may have fines or
Speaker 1: other kinds of restitution. So you're not going to be
Speaker 1: able to vote until you pay all of that out.
Speaker 1: How did that make you feel? Well, it's so enraging
Speaker 1: and frustrating that there's an entire political party that has
Speaker 1: built their entire political program on trying to discourage voting.
Speaker 1: So anytime there's an expansion of the vote, anytime there's
Speaker 1: an attempt to expand the vote, Republicans have decided that
Speaker 1: it's against their interests for those things to happen, so
Speaker 1: they fight it at every turn. In this particular instance,
Speaker 1: the public voted sixty to thirty five. We're not talking
Speaker 1: about a close margin here, and those those were voters
Speaker 1: from everywhere, all everybody did that. The people of Florida
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly voted for an expansion of voting rights. But because
Speaker 1: some of these institutions, like our state legislatures, aren't as accountable, arnest, transparent,
Speaker 1: aren't as small d democratic in their response to what
Speaker 1: people want, the state legislators wanted to maintain their hold
Speaker 1: on power in Florida, and so they tried to devise
Speaker 1: any tactics they could to reverse the will of the people,
Speaker 1: and they found basically a loophole that if they determined
Speaker 1: that you hadn't paid certain court fees and fines, that
Speaker 1: you hadn't actually served your sentence. So essentially they're saying,
Speaker 1: pay up or you can't vote. And we know poll
Speaker 1: taxes are unconstitutional in America, but this was their way
Speaker 1: of essentially charging people to vote. Some of them can't
Speaker 1: afford it, and so what we've been trying to do
Speaker 1: is pay those fees and fines so these folks could
Speaker 1: actually realize the gains in a suffrage that we fought for.
Speaker 1: And so we've raised about million dollars with the help
Speaker 1: of them really high net worth folks, but also tens
Speaker 1: of thousands of ordinary people, individuals who have given what
Speaker 1: little they can to help support these folks and extend
Speaker 1: the vote to as many people as possible. We'll be
Speaker 1: back right after this quick break. You know, there are
Speaker 1: a lot of people who don't vote for many different reasons,
Speaker 1: and people who don't think it will make a difference,
Speaker 1: people who don't believe that anything will change. They just
Speaker 1: are at a stage in their life where it seems
Speaker 1: like such a low priority. I'd love to hear you
Speaker 1: really speak to people who may not yet be convinced
Speaker 1: or may still be on the fence about whether they're
Speaker 1: going to vote or not as to what they should
Speaker 1: be considering that might encourage them to get out and
Speaker 1: actually exercise that vote. Well, I think first of all,
Speaker 1: we need to realize that this choice is not even
Speaker 1: close when it comes to thinking about who would be
Speaker 1: a better leader for this country, who would restore our
Speaker 1: moral authority in the world, who would restore our credibility
Speaker 1: in the world, that our word actually means something, that
Speaker 1: we actually believe in science, that we can be trusted
Speaker 1: as a partner to get major things done in the world,
Speaker 1: as we think about climate change, as we think about
Speaker 1: this pandemic. All of the solutions to these major problems
Speaker 1: that the world faces require America to be a respected,
Speaker 1: trusted partner in the world, and we are the opposite
Speaker 1: of that right now. We're the laughing stock of the world.
Speaker 1: I think climate change is the most pressing, most urgent
Speaker 1: issue that we face in this country and in the globe,
Speaker 1: and there's no way we make any progress on that
Speaker 1: if Donald Trump is reelected, and it is guaranteed that
Speaker 1: if Joe Biden is reelected and we have a democratic Senate,
Speaker 1: that we will pass some version of the Green New Deal.
Speaker 1: Joe put his plan up on his site, which I
Speaker 1: think is robust and has been seen by a lot
Speaker 1: of activists as a really strong plan that is critical.
Speaker 1: And if we don't elect Joe Biden, I don't know
Speaker 1: if we will ever be able to reverse the damage
Speaker 1: that Donald Trump is doing and has done. That's enough
Speaker 1: reason for me. Yeah, well, I know, I mean, that's
Speaker 1: what you know. I think it's fair to say everything
Speaker 1: that anybody cares about is on the ballot, and that
Speaker 1: is on the ballot. Yeah, healthcare is on the ballot.
Speaker 1: You know, better jobs for the future, you know, dealing
Speaker 1: with the COVID vaccine issue. I mean, everything you care
Speaker 1: about is on the ballot. And let's let's focus on
Speaker 1: COVID for one second. Just look at what's happened in
Speaker 1: other countries when it comes to death rates, when it
Speaker 1: comes to overall spread of the disease. We have just
Speaker 1: been terrible at it. And it makes perfect sense. We
Speaker 1: have a terrible leader. He has no capability of thinking
Speaker 1: long term about anything. He has no capability of thinking
Speaker 1: about anyone outside of himself. He is a liar, He
Speaker 1: is a conspiracy theorist, and he particularly doesn't care about
Speaker 1: certain people, and a lot of those people are the
Speaker 1: people who are being most affected by this, black and
Speaker 1: brown people. So all of the things that would combine
Speaker 1: to make him bad for COVID nineteen are present in
Speaker 1: Donald Trump. There's nothing about him that says he would
Speaker 1: do a good job handling this. And now that there's
Speaker 1: a possibility of a vaccine, we can't even trust him
Speaker 1: as the president to uh to lead an administration and
Speaker 1: f d A as c d C that's going to
Speaker 1: handle it properly in a way that all Americans can trust.
Speaker 1: So in every single way, he is exactly the wrong
Speaker 1: person to be in charge in a crisis, particular crisis
Speaker 1: of this magnitude and of this complexity. You've seen this
Speaker 1: utter failure of a president. It's obvious that Joe Biden
Speaker 1: is a better choice. And if you want to see
Speaker 1: what his policies are, because I I kind of got
Speaker 1: frustrated on Twitter one day and I was like, just
Speaker 1: go to his website, because because Joe Biden's actually very yes,
Speaker 1: he's actually worked with a lot of policy people on
Speaker 1: the left to really formulate some really great ideas, and
Speaker 1: the choice between his plans and Donald Trump's plan that
Speaker 1: he keeps saying he has. I don't even understand what
Speaker 1: that means. It just means it doesn't happen when. But
Speaker 1: it's kind of amazing that he would even say that
Speaker 1: with a straight face. It's so obvious that Donald Trump
Speaker 1: should never lead anything that is of concern to anyone,
Speaker 1: like any CEO, anyone who's in charge of hiring people.
Speaker 1: He has all of the characteristics that you would red
Speaker 1: flag and say this kind of person could never work
Speaker 1: for me. I would never let him run anything, not
Speaker 1: the dog pound, not the local fire department, Like, there's
Speaker 1: nothing you would trust him to run. He has no plans.
Speaker 1: But everybody needs a plan to vote, right, So people
Speaker 1: to vote, you've got to have a plan to vote.
Speaker 1: If you can vote early, vote early. If you are
Speaker 1: going to vote by mail, get it in the you know,
Speaker 1: the mail, as soon as you can. And then, no
Speaker 1: matter how long they make you wait, if you're going
Speaker 1: to vote on election day, don't go anywhere. Stay there,
Speaker 1: bring a lunch, whatever it takes, you know. My advice
Speaker 1: to folks is if you can vote early in person,
Speaker 1: that's probably the That's what I'm gonna do you know.
Speaker 1: John Lewis said that democracy is not a state, it's
Speaker 1: an act. Exactly exactly we have to act for us
Speaker 1: to maintain our democracy, and it is in peril right now,
Speaker 1: is it is? Amen. I'm so grateful that you joined
Speaker 1: me today because you have such a perspective and understanding
Speaker 1: about what's at stake, and the life you've lived and
Speaker 1: the way you've used your talents speak louder than words
Speaker 1: ever could. So thank you so much, John. Give big
Speaker 1: hugs to Chrissie and Luna and Miles. Okay, absolutely, I
Speaker 1: love to build to Chelsea and all the grandkids, and
Speaker 1: we love your family and want to send all of
Speaker 1: our best team. Take care, Take care. If you want
Speaker 1: to learn more about Free to Vote, the fund John
Speaker 1: Legend created to help returning citizens exercise their right to vote,
Speaker 1: please visit his website Let's Free America dot com. I'm
Speaker 1: devastated to share with you that two days after we
Speaker 1: published this episode, John and Chrissie lost their baby. I'm
Speaker 1: sending them my love and my prayers, and I know
Speaker 1: that you all join me in doing that. I first
Speaker 1: met Stacy Abrams when she was a leader in the
Speaker 1: Georgia Legislature. You know, from that very first meeting, I
Speaker 1: could just tell that she was someone who had a
Speaker 1: big future ahead. She ran a heroic campaign for governor
Speaker 1: of Georgia. In her opponent, the Secretary of State at
Speaker 1: the time, Brian kemp rewrote the rules on voter registration,
Speaker 1: purged more than three hundred thousand people from the voter rolls,
Speaker 1: and closed more than two hundred polling places across the state.
Speaker 1: After that election, Stacy started a new organization called Fair Fight,
Speaker 1: dedicated to making sure everyone can vote and have their
Speaker 1: vote counted. It wasn't just that election that motivated Stacy.
Speaker 1: She was also spurred on by the work of her
Speaker 1: parents and grandparents to get started. I asked Stacy to
Speaker 1: share a story from her book, Our Time Is Now.
Speaker 1: That story is about a conversation she had during a
Speaker 1: visit with her grandmother in the middle of Stacy's campaign
Speaker 1: for governor. We were just talking about the election and
Speaker 1: what was happening, and she was chiding me about, you know,
Speaker 1: whether I was taking care of myself. But we started
Speaker 1: talking about voting and and spontaneously I didn't know to
Speaker 1: ask about the story. She grabs my hand and she
Speaker 1: tells me about the first time she voted. And she
Speaker 1: tells me that she was sitting in her bedroom in
Speaker 1: November of nineteen sixty three years after the passage of
Speaker 1: the Voting Rights Act, and you still had all of
Speaker 1: the ignominies of Jim Crow, all of the challenges of
Speaker 1: white folks who did not want this new thing to
Speaker 1: be true, especially in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. And so my grandfather
Speaker 1: and his brother were in the front room getting ready
Speaker 1: to go, and they called from my grandmother, and she
Speaker 1: tells me about sitting frozen on the bed and she
Speaker 1: just could not move. She was paralyzed. And she said
Speaker 1: that she just kept thinking about the dogs and the
Speaker 1: batons and the hoses, and just those mean men who
Speaker 1: had made their lives work denying her agency. And she
Speaker 1: did not believe that it was really different. And so,
Speaker 1: you know, my grandfather, you know, calls for her. Finally
Speaker 1: comes back, and it's like, you know, he calls her,
Speaker 1: sugar honey. He's like, sugar, honey, come on, we've got
Speaker 1: to go vote. And my grandmother's like, I don't want to.
Speaker 1: And my grandfather reminds her that her son, at the
Speaker 1: age of fourteen my dad got arrested registering people to vote,
Speaker 1: that she and he had paid bail for their kids
Speaker 1: to get them out of jail, when they would do
Speaker 1: things because of their commitment to civil rights. Why would
Speaker 1: you not now hold this power? And fundamentally, what she
Speaker 1: was telling me was that the power scared her. And
Speaker 1: what I think about every time I fight the fight
Speaker 1: for voter suppression. Why I pushed so hard for the
Speaker 1: senses to be completed by the communities who've been told
Speaker 1: to be afraid of it. It's the power is terrifying,
Speaker 1: the power to vote, the power to be seen. But fundamentally,
Speaker 1: the power of citizenship is terrifying. And a woman who
Speaker 1: had raised her children to want it, who had done
Speaker 1: her part to make it so, I just didn't believe
Speaker 1: it was true. It's not enough to tell some when
Speaker 1: they have power. We've got to make that power real,
Speaker 1: and we've got to make sure people are prepared to
Speaker 1: wield it. You know, reading that story in your book,
Speaker 1: I thought back to when I moved to Arkansas. I
Speaker 1: moved in late summer of ur and my then boyfriend
Speaker 1: was running for Congress, and I was teaching at the
Speaker 1: law school there and on weekends, I'd go out and
Speaker 1: knock on doors and ask people to vote for him.
Speaker 1: And I kept running into black women who said they
Speaker 1: hadn't paid their poll tax, and I said, well, there
Speaker 1: is no more poll tax, because oh yeah, there is.
Speaker 1: And I said, well, you know it's been struck down,
Speaker 1: it's been eliminated that you know, you can't be charged
Speaker 1: a poll tax. And they look at me like, you know,
Speaker 1: what planet are you from. Of course they're going to
Speaker 1: stop us from voting. The other thing that would happen
Speaker 1: often with white women is I would knock on the
Speaker 1: door and I'd maybe be with a young volunteer, and
Speaker 1: I'd say I was, you know, here campaigning for you know,
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton or somebody else that I was campaigning for,
Speaker 1: and the women would say, my husband does the voting
Speaker 1: in our house. You know, those two real world experiences,
Speaker 1: to me, really are in line with your experience and
Speaker 1: your understanding that the reason we are having this very
Speaker 1: intense and deep struggle over voting is because, at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, it is the single power that
Speaker 1: every citizen and has. So if people can be discouraged,
Speaker 1: can be frightened, can be intimidated, can have their votes stolen,
Speaker 1: not counted. You know, it does create a lot of
Speaker 1: dissonance in people. They get scared, they get worried that
Speaker 1: maybe there's going to be some kind of terrible consequence
Speaker 1: for them trying to vote. So, how do you now
Speaker 1: see where we are here at this point in our history?
Speaker 1: And are you optimistic? Are you pessimistic? Are you both? What?
Speaker 1: What do you think? I described myself as an ameliorist.
Speaker 1: I've always loved the world amiliorg you to mitigate the harm.
Speaker 1: And I believe in shorthand that the glass is half full.
Speaker 1: It's just probably poisoned. And so my job is to
Speaker 1: try to find the antidote. Our job is to try
Speaker 1: to find that antidote. Whether that antidote is justice, that
Speaker 1: antidote is mercy, if that antidote is investment. We've got
Speaker 1: to find a way to fix what's broken. But we
Speaker 1: can never believe that it won't be broken again. And
Speaker 1: I think that's why I'm not an optimist. Optimism presumes
Speaker 1: there's going to be some end state where good triumphs.
Speaker 1: I've lived too long a life for that. But what
Speaker 1: I do know to be true is that it gets better.
Speaker 1: I mean, you you reference those women black and white.
Speaker 1: And I think about being in South Georgia having a
Speaker 1: conversation about folks going to vote and being told, well,
Speaker 1: we don't vote early because if you want to vote early,
Speaker 1: you've got to go to jail. And I was like,
Speaker 1: what do you mean. The only place to early vote
Speaker 1: was in the justice complex, which meant you had to
Speaker 1: go to jail. And if you had a child who
Speaker 1: had a warrant, if somebody had been pulled aside, and
Speaker 1: in parts of Georgia where you were more likely to
Speaker 1: be arrested just because of your race, why would you
Speaker 1: risk your freedom to exercise your citizenship. And so my
Speaker 1: clare and call about voter suppression was in part to
Speaker 1: live out what you did in the election. With all
Speaker 1: the other instrumentalities that were arrayed against Americans in that election,
Speaker 1: you were the avatar. And I want us to be
Speaker 1: really clear, you me any candidate. We are avatars for
Speaker 1: people's dreams, for their beliefs, for their values, for their
Speaker 1: demands for their life. And when voter suppression hits, it
Speaker 1: is not to deny me a job, you a job.
Speaker 1: It's not about the title. It's about the work that
Speaker 1: we were going to do for those people, and the
Speaker 1: righteous indignation that comes with suppression is because yeah, I
Speaker 1: didn't get the title. Okay, what I'm angry about it
Speaker 1: those black women, those brown women, those white women, those
Speaker 1: young people who for the first time screwed their courage
Speaker 1: up and went inside that jail to cast their vote
Speaker 1: only to be told their vote wasn't going to be counted.
Speaker 1: And so I am an amelioris because I never believe
Speaker 1: that power will ever say you can have me, and
Speaker 1: that shared power is ever going to be permanent. But
Speaker 1: I believe in the permanence of trying. I do too.
Speaker 1: I believe in the permanence of trying. That's my job.
Speaker 1: We'll be back right after this quick break. You know,
Speaker 1: That's exactly how I am. And you know, sometimes people
Speaker 1: get frustrated with folks like us because, you know, they think, well,
Speaker 1: you know, can't you just see we just waive the
Speaker 1: magic one, we run certain people for office and then
Speaker 1: everything changes. And I said, well, no, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I've read a lot of history, I've read the Bible,
Speaker 1: I've experienced a lot. I don't think that's how it works.
Speaker 1: And I love your your phrase, ameliorist. You know, When
Speaker 1: some of us saw what happened in the Georgia primary
Speaker 1: this past spring, we worried that it was a dry
Speaker 1: run for the upcoming November election, not just in Georgia,
Speaker 1: but in a lot of other states where the Trump
Speaker 1: administration and the Republicans know that if there's a fair
Speaker 1: election and people are given the right to vote and
Speaker 1: that right is protected, they're not likely to get reelected.
Speaker 1: So what do you think about where we are now
Speaker 1: in all the lawsuits were bringing. I'm supporting lawsuits through
Speaker 1: my group Onward Together and the Democracy Docket, the advocacy,
Speaker 1: You're doing everything that we are all so focused on.
Speaker 1: What worries you about the upcoming November election? What worries
Speaker 1: me is that Republicans know that their time is nigh,
Speaker 1: and when cornered, they are willing to do whatever they
Speaker 1: can to stave off the inevitable. And so we know
Speaker 1: that they have agreed to spend twenty million dollars fighting
Speaker 1: these lawsuits. We know they're going to raise an army
Speaker 1: of fifty thou pull monitors to intimidate voters in ways
Speaker 1: they haven't been permitted to do since. But back to
Speaker 1: the amiliarist know fair fight exists, fair count exists, the
Speaker 1: Sawyer's Committee, the Leadership Council, the a c P. These
Speaker 1: exist because we know that we can fight back in
Speaker 1: ways that we had never organized around before, and we
Speaker 1: have to talk about this. You cannot solve a problem.
Speaker 1: You will not call out and call by name and
Speaker 1: give people roadmap to understanding what it is. But the
Speaker 1: second part is you have to have some solutions. Litigation
Speaker 1: is a solution because the Lawyer's Committee, in the a
Speaker 1: c L you are winning these suits, they are getting
Speaker 1: changes made. The worst thing that can happen is that
Speaker 1: we get surprised by what they intend to do. I
Speaker 1: don't believe that every Republican is bad. I don't believe
Speaker 1: every Democrat is good. But I do believe that the
Speaker 1: party that calls itself the GOP has thrown its lot
Speaker 1: in with fevery and suppression as opposed to running a
Speaker 1: fair race and letting the chips fall where they may.
Speaker 1: When the President of the United States says he can't
Speaker 1: win an election if every eligible citizen votes, we should
Speaker 1: take him at his word and test his theory. Sounds
Speaker 1: like a plan to me, my friend. Thank you so much, Stacy,
Speaker 1: and keep going we're gonna be ameliorating in every way
Speaker 1: we know and hopefully taking our country back come November.
Speaker 1: It has been a delight. Thank you so much to
Speaker 1: Madame Secretary. Make sure to check out Stacy's new book
Speaker 1: called Our Time Is Now, Power, Purpose, and the Fight
Speaker 1: for a Fair America about how we can create a
Speaker 1: more equal country. This year, we lost two people who
Speaker 1: really understood how fundamental the right to vote is in
Speaker 1: our democracy if we're going to keep a democracy. One
Speaker 1: was my friend John Lewis, and what a loss in
Speaker 1: the middle of a pandemic and at a time and
Speaker 1: we need heroes like John more than ever. There wasn't
Speaker 1: anybody who put his life on the line more often
Speaker 1: to stand up for the right to vote than John Lewis.
Speaker 1: The other loss was Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I think
Speaker 1: about Ruth a lot because she changed the law. She
Speaker 1: got constitutional interpretation that literally changed my life. You know,
Speaker 1: when I was a young woman, I couldn't even get
Speaker 1: a credit card in my own name. But she knocked
Speaker 1: down barriers and obstacles to make sure that equality meant something,
Speaker 1: and not just for women, but for all people. She
Speaker 1: was famous for her descents and I've been thinking a
Speaker 1: lot about the descent she made to a Supreme Court
Speaker 1: decision in a case called Shelby. The holder back in
Speaker 1: that case struck down key provisions of the Voting Rights Act,
Speaker 1: and Justice gins knew the decision would make it much
Speaker 1: more difficult for people to vote, especially people of color
Speaker 1: and young people, low income people, the elderly. And she
Speaker 1: said so in her descent. But she left us with
Speaker 1: a rallying cry that sums up so much of her
Speaker 1: philosophy on life. Here she is reading from that descent
Speaker 1: from the bench. The great man who led the march
Speaker 1: from Selma to Montgomery, and they are called for the
Speaker 1: passage of the Voting Rights Act foresaw progress even in Alabama.
Speaker 1: The ak of the moral universe is long, he said,
Speaker 1: but it bends toward justice if there is a steadfast
Speaker 1: commitment to see the task through to completion. If there
Speaker 1: is a steadfast commitment to seeing the task through to completion,
Speaker 1: that a s and sums up Ruth Bader Ginsburg's life
Speaker 1: and work, and it gives the rest of us our
Speaker 1: marching orders. There is no better way to pay tribute
Speaker 1: to Justice Ginsburg than to get out and vote and
Speaker 1: work as hard as you can to protect that right
Speaker 1: for everyone. This election could come down to the slimmest margin,
Speaker 1: take it from me, and the best way to win
Speaker 1: is to turn out in overwhelming numbers. So happy voting
Speaker 1: and onward we go. You and Me Both is brought
Speaker 1: to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie
Speaker 1: Subran and Kathleen Russo, with help from Huma Aberdeen, Nikki
Speaker 1: etur Oscar Flores, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Lauren Peterson, Rob Russo,
Speaker 1: and Lona Valmorrow. Our engineer is Zack McNeice. Original music
Speaker 1: is by Forest Gray. If you like You and Me Both,
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Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: While you're there, leave us a review. I'd really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you, so send us your questions, comments,
Speaker 1: or ideas for future shows at You and Me Both
Speaker 1: pod at gmail dot com. Come back next week when
Speaker 1: we're talking to some amazing women leaders, including the one
Speaker 1: and only Gloria Steinhum