1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: production of My Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 6 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our superproducer Paul 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: Mission controlled decads. Most importantly, you are you. You are here, 8 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: and that makes this the stuff they don't want you 9 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:43,599 Speaker 1: to know. Today's story comes to us via a listener 10 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: that we're going to keep anonymous because they are connected 11 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: on a personal level to the case we're going to 12 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: talk about. This listener wrote to us in July, I 13 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: believe it was, And this story takes us to the 14 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: coast of Oregon, to a small town you may not 15 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: have heard of named Cokell before the year two thousand. 16 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 1: If you didn't live in the area, you almost certainly 17 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: were not familiar with it. It's it's just it's not 18 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: a place for a long time that made a lot 19 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: of national news. And that's not a bad thing. You know. 20 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:16,919 Speaker 1: It's a close knit community. It's the kind of place 21 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: where everybody knows everyone else and you can find thousands 22 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:25,919 Speaker 1: and thousands of quiet Bucolic towns like like this place 23 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: all across the US. What we're saying is it was 24 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: a relatively peaceful place until June of two thousand, a 25 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: fifteen year old child named Leah Nicole Freeman disappear. Here 26 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: are the facts. At the time. She you know, she 27 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 1: was like any other high school kids. She was a freshman. 28 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: Her boyfriend was a senior high school student. Uh. He 29 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: was eighteen years old, three years older. His name Nicholas 30 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: James mcguffin, or Nick to his friends. That's right. And 31 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: on the evening of June two thousand, Uh, he has 32 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: boyfriend dropped her off at her friend, Sherry Mitchell's house. Uh, 33 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: And there was an argument between the two girls, and 34 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: Sherry was upset and concerned about how much time her 35 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: friend Leo was spending with Nick. The age discrepancy, I 36 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: think was sort of an issue. Um. He was considered 37 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: to be a bit of a flirt. You know, he 38 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: was kind of like this, you know, football guy, you know, 39 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: kind of lothario type. And I think that was likely 40 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: of concern to her friend that she was gonna get 41 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 1: her heartbroken, especially since he was so much younger, Um, 42 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: and he had a bit of a reputation, you know, 43 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: with the ladies. The conversation turned into an argument, and 44 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: Leah stormed out. She left on foot just before at 45 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: nine o'clock that evening. Yeah, and there's a an episode 46 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: of you can watch that has a lot of details 47 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: in here that we're gonna be talking about today. And 48 00:02:54,919 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 1: within those details, one of the things you learned is that, allegedly, 49 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,399 Speaker 1: at least according to witness statements, Leah would often want 50 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: to go on a walk at night with her friend Sherry, 51 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: but her Sherry's mother would not like her to do 52 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 1: that because Nick would often drive and pick up Leah 53 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: while they were on a night walk, and then Sherry 54 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: would have to walk home alone way night walk. Shout 55 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: out right, there you go. It's yeah, it's true, And 56 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: they're there are two investigations, so we're gonna we're gonna 57 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: talk about both of them because they take two very 58 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: different directions. I think it's safe to say, Um, that's 59 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: a great point, Matt, that you're making about the feelings 60 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: of Leah's mother, Corey Court right, because she she was 61 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: also concerned about the age discrepancy, and she was aware 62 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: that the couple had become sexually active. Uh. This you know, 63 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: if you've ever had a high school romance, Actually, if 64 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: you're going through a high school romance right now, good luck. 65 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: You know you've got a lot going on. And these 66 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: can often be pretty tumultuous, right, Um, in the best 67 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: of times. Uh, can you imagine being in a small town. 68 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: Everybody knows whom everybody's dating or married to or fooling 69 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: around with. There's there's not much of an ability to 70 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: keep things secret, so it was easy for people to 71 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: find witnesses. In a later investigation, she was cited at 72 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: a at a fast mark, someone else said they saw 73 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: at a restaurant, and she was also seen by the 74 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: high school. Um. The thing about the the thing about 75 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: the location, and you can you can get a sense 76 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 1: of this if you look at the maps. When she 77 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 1: leaves Sherry's house, it only takes a few minutes by 78 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: foot to get to the high school, So it's not 79 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: like she's growming all across town. This is kind of 80 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: a limited area where she's walking. And then some of 81 00:04:54,680 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: the last witnesses one sees Leah standing nearby or outside 82 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 1: to pay phone and remembers there's all I witness testimony 83 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:10,119 Speaker 1: remembers seen two men arguing right, not too far away 84 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: from her in the vicinity. Well, let's also remember too, 85 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: like this is two thousand. You know, smartphones weren't a thing. 86 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: Like texting was barely a thing. I don't think it 87 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: was like as it was possible to do, but it 88 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: wasn't as like in style as its ultimately become like 89 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: the only way people communicate. So it wasn't as easy 90 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: to like track someone down or like get a check in, 91 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. That's hence the payphone. Yeah, exactly, 92 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: And that's it's it's strange to think about that, I know, 93 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: fellow conspiracy realistic, I know this sometimes feels like a 94 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: splash of cold water whenever we point this out. But 95 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 1: to the year two thousand was twenty one years ago. 96 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: The year two thousand is old enough to drink if 97 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: you think about it that way. Yeah, it's not old 98 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: enough to run for president yet. So we still got that. 99 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: I think that's age what thirty five. I do believe 100 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: that's correct. Okay, Hey, some of us in the crowd 101 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: are eligible to run for president. Uh back to back 102 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: to this though, So Leah Freeman is sited at a 103 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 1: gas station and one of the witnesses reports hearing a 104 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: high pitched scream. They if if you look at what 105 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: they say. They don't say they saw Leah Freeman screaming. 106 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: They say they saw her and they heard a scream. So, 107 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: like like you guys said earlier, Sherry's mom is not 108 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: a fan of these night walks, like said earlier, because 109 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: she knows the score, she knows the pattern right. She 110 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: knows that this senior Nick mcguffin is going to come 111 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: into the picture at some point. He's gonna pick up Leah, etcetera, etcetera. UM. 112 00:06:54,839 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: Nick mcguffin goes to Sherry's house and he he goes. 113 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: He shows up with every expectation of picking up his 114 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: girlfriend Leah, only he learns that about this argument and 115 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: he learns that she has left. So and this is 116 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: a reasonable thing I think almost anyone would do, especially 117 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: when you can't shoot a text to people. He goes 118 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: off to look for Yeah, and it's interesting because you 119 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: see Nick talking on the record like in this UM special. 120 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: It's called last scene walking. Actually, like you said, Ben, 121 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: they combined footage from the original Tony twenty that was 122 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: about the kind of period we're talking about with where 123 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: it ultimately went, which we're going to get too soon. 124 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: But he's he speaks about this and about how he 125 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: was concerned and how he was driving around looking for 126 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: He talks about how he can shoot a text then 127 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: like we're saying, and he talks about all the places 128 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: that he went. Um, you could walk to Sherry's house 129 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: from the high school. Everything was, you know, just a 130 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: couple of minutes away on foot. Um. He can't finally there, 131 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: so he content actual Lyah's mother. Uh. He goes out searching. 132 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: He's actually stopped by the police uh twice while he's 133 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: out looking forward because he had a broken head lamp 134 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: on his car. Um. But he explains that he's out 135 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: looking for his girlfriend. He's aware of the problem officers, 136 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: and he'll fix it immediately, but please let me try 137 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: to find my girlfriend. I'm concerned, and they let him 138 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: go on his way with a warning. Around midnight, he 139 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: contacts a friend named Kristen Steinhoff to give him a 140 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: hand and by two am he gives up. He mentions 141 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: in the interview that he drives by Leah's house and 142 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: sees a reflection in the window or some kind of 143 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: like glare and he assumes that it's her TV on uh, 144 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: and then he's like, Okay, I guess she's good. I'm 145 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: not gonna you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna go. But also, 146 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, that's a little weird too, because you 147 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: think he would I don't know, maybe he didn't want 148 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 1: to disturb the household because he knew the mom didn't 149 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: like him, and he didn't have a reasonable way of 150 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: like getting her attention at that point. I guess that 151 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: makes sense. I mean, you know, at that point, what 152 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 1: could you do? You could like throw rocks at the 153 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: window maybe or something like that, but otherwise, you know, otherwise, 154 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: I mean imagine the perspective makes sense there because imagine 155 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: if you're the parent of some teenagers and you already 156 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: are a little concerned about what your kids are getting 157 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: up to, and then her boyfriend shows up at two 158 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: am to talk to her, that's not a totally good look. Yeah, 159 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: this is an important thing just to keep in your 160 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: mind as we're going on in this episode. This person, Kristen, 161 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: the friend of Nicky. They met up together on the 162 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: night that they couldn't find Leah. Just keep that in 163 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: minds an important important player in the story. Yes, keep 164 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: Kristen Steinhoff in your mind for the rest of the show. 165 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: She returns. Here's the thing from mcguffin's story, it sounds like, 166 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: for understandable reasons, he assumed his girlfriend had made it home. 167 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: He's not gonna wake everybody up at two am. He'll 168 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: just see her in the morning and when dawn comes 169 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: when she had not made it home. So the next morning, 170 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: Nick goes to the police department to file a missing 171 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: person's report, and he recalls in in several interviews that 172 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: police had told him she had most likely runaway, you know, 173 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: and they're thinking, well, this is it's a teenager who 174 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: knows what's going on with them. They may come back, 175 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: who knows, right, But with the nature of how she left, 176 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: right in an argument from my least the authorities understanding perspective, 177 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: that's how she left exactly exactly, and no one seems 178 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: to know quite where she headed off to. So Nick 179 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: says that he started distributing flyers missing flyers throughout the area. 180 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: Is just confirmed. He says it. It's interesting, I mean 181 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: like it seems like he yeah, from everything that I've 182 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: seen of him. He seemed to genuinely care for this 183 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: girl and be you know, it was really concerned. I 184 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: didn't find a picture of the flyer, but I did 185 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: find him saying that he had he had done this 186 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: in interviews, and the police contact him right there the 187 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: paramour of a missing person. Of course, you were going 188 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: to be a person of interest. That doesn't matter. And 189 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: so Nick goes involuntarily for an interview, and in the 190 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: course of the interview, according to him, he notices something off, 191 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 1: something he wasn't expecting. He thought the investigators were turning 192 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 1: his words around on him, you know, which is, by 193 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: the way, why people need lawyers in general. Right, even 194 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: if you were even if you are completely innocent, you 195 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: you want to have a professional with you in those situations. Still, 196 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: you can hear audio of the of the of the interview, 197 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: and they are doing that. He says something about they're 198 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 1: asking why what might have been a reason for her 199 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: to run away? He says, well, she had depression, but 200 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 1: he also said earlier that she was a very upbeat 201 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: kind of person. They was like, well, which is it. 202 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: Does she have depression or is she upbeat? And I 203 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 1: mean we all know that those things are not mutually exclusive, 204 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 1: and that someone might not know you're depressed unless you're 205 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: very close to them. And even if you seem like 206 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 1: the most happy, go lucky, upbeat person in the world, 207 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean there isn't a darker side to that coin. 208 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: You know, absolutely, absolutely, Still he is you know, keep 209 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,719 Speaker 1: in mind, he is he's young person, he doesn't have 210 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: h a ton of experience, he's he doesn't have a 211 00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: ton of experience being questioned by law enforcement, but he's 212 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: still cooperating. He allows police to search his car, which 213 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 1: he was driving that evening. It's a it's a Mustang. 214 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: And later the investigation takes another turn. There's a mechanic 215 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: who works as swing shift nearby. This mechanic is driving 216 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: home and he finds a shoe lying in the road. 217 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: From what investigators say about this mechanic, he figured as 218 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:29,839 Speaker 1: some kid had left their shoe there, which is kind 219 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: of unusual. Shoes are one of those things that you 220 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: typically notice when you lose them. They're not like your 221 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: keys or a wallet or something, especially if you're on 222 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,719 Speaker 1: a night walk. Yeah, that's a good that's a really 223 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: good point. And so this mechanic picks up the shoe 224 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: and he takes it home, which I thought was interesting 225 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: because you could see that as a statement about what 226 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: a small town this is. You know, Yeah, I could 227 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: actually get this shoe back to somebody. I could get 228 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: the shoe back to someone. You know, if you if 229 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: you live in a larger town, you're not going to 230 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: touch a random shoe. No, you're right there. It's funny 231 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: someone gonna put out like on the like neighborhood bulletin board, 232 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: missing shoe please return. You know, um, does it feel 233 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: a little weird to you guys at all? Like, yes, yes, 234 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: I think it's super weird because think about that. When's 235 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: I mean, and this is a question for for everybody 236 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: listening to the show today. When is the last time 237 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: you just walking in your neck of the Global Woods? 238 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: When's the last time you just saw a shoe laying out? 239 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: Just want I've seen a shoe. I've seen shoes, but 240 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: I've I've never touched them. I would even touch it. 241 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: I would not do that. It's shoe is a very 242 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: personal thing if you know it contains uh, you know, 243 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just gross. Not to sound like, 244 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: not to sound like a germophobe, but I'm I'm with you. 245 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: That's one of my first concerns. Anyways, No, I'm with you, 246 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: and so to us at least that that seems a 247 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: little bit on usual. But that's that's what the investigators 248 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: are saying when they're quoting this mechanic. Uh. But the 249 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: mechanic came forward voluntarily. Yes, the mechanic comes forward voluntarily. 250 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: When the story of Leah Freeman's disappearance hits the news, 251 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: it's it's the it's the biggest thing that's happened in 252 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: a long long time in the town, and and everybody 253 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: in town is consumed with keeping up with this, with 254 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: figuring out who might know what, who can help, Like 255 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: how can we band together and find this kid, because 256 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: that's that's one of the strengths of small towns. They 257 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: can really come together in things, sometimes for good, sometimes 258 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: for ill. Anyway, this mechanic comes forward and the investigators 259 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: are able to confirm this shoe belongs to Leah Freeman. 260 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: They confirmed this by uh contacting her sister, and her 261 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: sisters the one who was able to say, yes, that's 262 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: my sibling shoe, So where is the other shoe? Six 263 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: days was literally a waiting for the other shoe to 264 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: drop situation. Yes, So they do find the other shoe 265 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: six days later, and things just look worse and worse. 266 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: It's the fourth of July. It's about ten miles away 267 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: where they find this shoe. Yeah, in a town called 268 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: Hudson Ridge, and it had blood on it. Um not 269 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: a lot of blood. It wasn't like a gory horror show, 270 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: but there was. There were some blood stains on it. 271 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: And the family insisted there was no possibility I would 272 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: have run away. That wasn't her style. She wasn't that 273 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: type of girl whatever. You know. They were in her 274 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: corner in that respect, and the family insisted that there 275 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: was no way that Leo would have run away. It 276 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: wasn't like her. It didn't make any sense. They didn't 277 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: see any problems and they seemed relatively close. I mean, 278 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: her mom knew that she and her boyfriend were sexually active. 279 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: Obviously she disapproved, but it didn't seem like she was 280 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: some sort of helicopter mom. It seemed like they maybe 281 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: her daughter trusted her to some degree and shared with 282 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: her about these things. Anyway, she knew what was going 283 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: on with her daughter, so she just didn't didn't didn't 284 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: track for her well, and it was also a legal situation. Absolutely, yeah, 285 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: it can be so. So, yes, they find this second shoe. 286 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: The for the entirety of the investigation, the family is 287 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: insisting that there is no chance uh Leah Freeman would 288 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: have run away. And when they, you know, they find 289 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,360 Speaker 1: this shoe, separated by miles from the other shoe, law 290 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: enforcement logically begins to consider the worst possibilities. And there's 291 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: a whole new place to look for her. And there's 292 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: a whole new place to look. And we're going to 293 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: pause for a word from our sponsors and will return 294 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 1: to allow up the investigation. We're not at the park 295 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: where it gets crazy yet, We're just giving you the background. 296 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 1: We're back, so fast forward weeks and weeks. It's August. 297 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: Leah Freeman has been missing until August three of two thousand, 298 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:31,360 Speaker 1: when her body is discovered on a steep wooded embankment 299 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: in Coos County, about eight miles from where she disappeared. 300 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,959 Speaker 1: And according to according to people familiar with the area, 301 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: and according to mcguffn's attorney, uh, this this part where 302 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: she where her body is found, is very It's a 303 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: rural area. These are old logging roads, you know what 304 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: I mean, things like dirt roads. This is not a 305 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: densely populated place. And unfortunately, because it had been out there, 306 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: remember this is Ummer, her body had been out there 307 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: for weeks. It was badly, badly decomposed due to the 308 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,719 Speaker 1: heat and due to the activities of animals. This complicates 309 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 1: the investigation. The body is so damaged that it's very 310 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: difficult to determine a cause of death. I can't help 311 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 1: but think of the Twin Peaks with this story. It really, 312 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: you know, the whole Oregon setting, the kind of small 313 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: town the body discovered kind of out in the in 314 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 1: the wilderness. Um, I don't know, really interesting parallel. This 315 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 1: is obviously after that show came out and had been 316 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: in the public conscienus for a long time. But it's 317 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: just Oregon has this kind of weird, creepy energy to 318 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: it in terms of like the types of crimes because 319 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: it's so isolated and it's seen as this is a 320 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 1: very liberal kind of bastion, you know, with places like 321 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: Portland's and all that, But there really is kind of 322 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 1: a crazy, seedy underbelly. A lot of you know, crimes 323 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: like this to take place out there, and we'll get 324 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: into the legal side of it later. That's interesting in 325 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: its own right. But the investigation understandably turned to Nick 326 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: mcguffin because they have no other leads. Uh, they had 327 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: already you know, interrogated him. He became their prime suspect 328 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: simply because the fact that he was closest to her, 329 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: and it was just kind of he was an easy target, um, 330 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: even though they had no solid proof. Um, he was 331 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: just the most likely person and had the most opportunity. 332 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: Let's just say, yeah, you have to start somewhere, you 333 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 1: know what I mean. That's that's not an unreasonable thing 334 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: to do. So, like, like we're seeing earlier, the thing 335 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: about small towns and folks. You know this if you've 336 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: ever lived in one, Uh, rumors can spread very quickly dangerously. 337 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: Communication is constant, and it goes through multiple channels. So 338 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: a lot of members of the town start to turn 339 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: on Nick mcguffin. They're stopping him in the street, they're 340 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: calling him a murderer. He himself recalls being hospitalized for 341 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: what he describes as an anxiety attack as well as 342 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 1: a suicide attempt in the interim, in this very dark 343 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 1: time in his life, as you can imagine he meets 344 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: someone else, becomes romantically involved, they have a child together, 345 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: a daughter. Fast forward years, right, the case is considered 346 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: to have gone cold. Mcguffin is at this point um 347 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: never arrested. He's never gone to a trial or anything. 348 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: He's working as a chef, he graduates culinary school, I think, 349 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: and he's having his daughter. A new police chief takes office, 350 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: Mark Daddles, and Mark Daddals is very much focused. Some 351 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,239 Speaker 1: would even describe it as having tunnel vision. He's very 352 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: much focused on solving this case, on solving this crime. 353 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: And it makes sense because we have to remember this 354 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: is one of the if not the most brutal crimes 355 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 1: in the town's history. So he he wants to solve 356 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: the case. So they reopen it years later. And this 357 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: might sound odd, but it's not unusual, no, I mean, 358 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: it's like a cold case doesn't mean the case is closed. 359 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: It just means they sort of tabled it pending some 360 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: revelation they don't have. They probably don't have the staff 361 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: to continue to just doggedly investigate a case like that 362 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: when there's you know, is that about the size of it? 363 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: Kind of? I mean, there's no new leads, No, there's 364 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 1: no new action to be taken because there's nothing to 365 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: take action on. Right. That's that. But you know it 366 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: would take somebody like Daniels who made this kind of 367 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: a flagship issue. And I understand why. I mean, this 368 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 1: is a small town. People don't have closure. People feel like, 369 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: whoever this is that did this, if they've moved on 370 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: from believing that it was Nick mcguffin, is still out there. 371 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: And it's just like, you know, as a new sheriff 372 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: in town, I can understand why he would want to 373 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: like make that right and make people feel safe in 374 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: this small town. So I get it. But you're right 375 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,719 Speaker 1: then about the tunnel vision. I mean, it's almost like 376 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 1: he was going to pin it on somebody no matter what. 377 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: And and you can tell he's he's got that energy 378 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: he brings in and has them like embedded with him. 379 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: He gives them full access to the point where it's 380 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: like a little weird in my opinion. It's like they're 381 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: so in the mix that they create this like sense 382 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: of you know, they're on the side of law enforcement 383 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: no matter who they're pursuing, and they don't seem to 384 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: be asking many uh hard questions of Daniels almost like 385 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: a quid pro quo of like, well, you gave us 386 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: all this access, so we're not going to give you 387 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: a hard time about these choices that you make. That's 388 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: just how I saw it. Well, in my eyes, it's 389 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: it's it's somebody who is aware of the pressure that 390 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: law enforcement and the media can exert on a potential suspect. Right. Um, So, 391 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: no matter who it is that as they reopen these 392 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,120 Speaker 1: case files look at all the evidence. Again, no matter 393 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: who it is that they think is their prime suspect, 394 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: that person is going to have this pressure on them 395 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: as they then begin fully investigating. Again. I guess what 396 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: I'm just saying is like it almost felt like was 397 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: opportunistic and a little bit irresponsible with the level of 398 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: pressure they applied without seeing both sides. Yeah, this is 399 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: this is Yeah, this is exactly the point. So first there, 400 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: I think right about the pressure that media coverage can impart, 401 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 1: but we also need to consider the pressure that the 402 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: public can impart on law enforcement. Not getting this is um, 403 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: not getting this is tantamounts not doing your job right 404 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: in the public's mind, and the public of the town 405 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: is is divided on what the thing is going on. 406 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: And I do have some serious problems with the way 407 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: did this because they it's an active investigation, and so 408 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 1: from the law enforcement perspective, you could say this makes 409 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: sense because by giving full transparency, they're showing not only 410 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: the people of the town, but the people of the 411 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: country who are now an audience in this investigation, that 412 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: they are doing something right. So you can understand how 413 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: that's an advantage. But at the same time that brings 414 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: like if if the Internet was around and the format 415 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: is today during that investigation, can you imagine how inundated 416 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: social media would have been? Can you imagine? Yeah, on 417 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: every level, that's what they're what they're doing in this 418 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: twenty piece. The initial one is they're showing this investigation, 419 00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: but they're also sort of feeding the flames of the 420 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: of the court of public opinion. And the court of 421 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: public opinion doesn't really obey loss. So so Daniels and 422 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: his team interview hundreds and hundreds of people, and they 423 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: claim and they noticed something odd. A lot of these witnesses, 424 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: or at least a significant number of witnesses that they interviewed, 425 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: were contradicting Nick mcguffin's story. And they would later say, 426 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: we have witnesses on record saying that they did see 427 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: Nick mcguffin and Leah Freeman together after nine pm after 428 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: she leaves Sherry's house. And that's where Kristen Steinhoff, when 429 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, comes back into place. She seems too, 430 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: in particular, throws some monkey wrenches in. Uh. Well in 431 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: what this point is being considered an alibi. Yeah, the 432 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: story we knew up until this point, at least you know, 433 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: that had been told to authorities and from other witnesses, 434 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: was that she and Nick got in the car and 435 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: looked for Leah. Right. That that's at least my understanding 436 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: of the understanding of these witnesses up to this point. Um, 437 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: And that was it. That's all that happened. She was 438 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: just trying to help help Nick find Leah. And then 439 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: that story changes completely. Yeah, what when they were hanging 440 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: out at her house? She says they were in their bedroom, 441 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 1: she and Nick, and they were doing drugs specifically, and 442 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: you can see footage from some of these interviews specifically 443 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: that they were doing methamphetamine, uh, and that they began 444 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: kissing and things were escalating and she cut things off 445 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: because he was trying to escalate to sex, and so 446 00:27:55,280 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: she stopped there. And mcguffin maintains that yes, they kissed, 447 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: but they didn't like he didn't try to take it further, 448 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: and that they may have they may have smoked marijuana, 449 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: but that they were not smoking meth. And then there's 450 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 1: something transformative and not in the best way that happens. 451 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: Remember we said, unfortunately the body is so decomposed that 452 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: you cannot readily determine a cause of death. At least 453 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: that's what the law enforcement is saying here. But an 454 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: investigator is on television speaking to the public and just 455 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: speculates that Leah Freeman may have been pregnant at the 456 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: time of her death. There was no proof for this. 457 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: This was and to be fair, was phrased this speculation. 458 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: But when you hear something like that, you know it's 459 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: going to set a rumor mill ablaze and you can't 460 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: really retract it because people won't listen past that home. 461 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: It's an invest it's a detective that says that, like 462 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: speculating um and then you know that the sheriff does 463 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, he's a little bit kind of finger 464 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: waggy about it. He's like well, that was just this 465 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: man's opinion, and they say that, um that that it 466 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: was never proven. He does say that, But you're right, 467 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: you can't put that badger back in the bag. Once 468 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: it said it gets people thinking, then immediately in your 469 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: mind you're crucifying. This guy is like a woman and 470 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: baby killer is like the worst. Well, you know, that 471 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: reminds me of guys that the recent Atlanta serial killer 472 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: rumors that were spreading around and that person expert that 473 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: brings necrophilia into the situation. Really, what now if that's 474 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: what we're dealing with, Okay, according to your opinion, Yeah, 475 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: and I you know you have to when you're conducting 476 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: an investigation, you do have to speculate because that will 477 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: lead you to the next part of your investigation. But 478 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: that speculation maybe belongs in the office TV right right, 479 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: not right before a commercial or something like that. And 480 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: that's and you're right, there's some finger wagging stuff there. 481 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: But but anyway, you can't as you can't rebag the badger, 482 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: you can't screw the lid back on Pandora's jars. Now 483 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: people are convinced that this is what happened, even though 484 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: this guy it was this guy's opinion. It is now 485 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: being treated by members of the public as evidence. At 486 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: this point, not only are these public these problematic public 487 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: statements going through, but Nick mcguffin still lives in town, 488 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: and law enforcement and the people at are on his 489 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: six all the time. There, you know, there following him 490 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,479 Speaker 1: at home, they're following him at work. They're seeing whereas 491 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: car goes, are ringing him off the hook, trying to 492 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: get an interview with him, and he's when he doesn't 493 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: want to do an interview. Eventually, because this is the 494 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: kind of show this was, Eventually one of the reporters 495 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: just runs up to him when they see his car 496 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: idoling and starts, you know, firing off questions and this 497 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: guy and it's like, I'm Mike in the face moments 498 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 1: kind of you know what I mean, And and so 499 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: he he drives away, but this well, he what does 500 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: he say that that he does say one thing? They say, 501 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: like you said, I just want to know what it's like. 502 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: And then Nick says, what do you think it's like? 503 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: And how do you think I feel or something like that. Yeah, yeah, 504 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: And he obviously is responding from a like a very 505 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: emotionally upset place because he's been he's been surveiled so extensively. 506 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: Not only has he been surveiled, but he's being surveilled 507 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: in a very public manner. Everybody else in town is 508 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: aware of this, right it's getting reported in the news. 509 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: And then this thing is going to come out. So 510 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: August after this they have a highly publicized arrest. Is 511 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: still embedded. They have called in the cavalry. There are 512 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: different teams getting ready for the arrest. There's a helicopter 513 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: involved keeping track of him. Uh. The idea being that 514 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,479 Speaker 1: he might try to make a run for it, so 515 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: they would need to be able to track him from 516 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: the air. Uh. He is arrested without incident. Really he's 517 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: not you know, he's not trying to resist arrest, he's 518 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: not fighting back, etcetera. Uh. And after this arrest he 519 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: goes to trial and legally this is where it gets 520 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: in a bizarre place. So he gets convicted, but he 521 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: doesn't get convicted of murder, which would have a life 522 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: sentence for him. He gets convicted of manslaughter in two 523 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: thousand leven and he gets a ten year sentence, and 524 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: not everybody on the jury is convinced. He is convicted 525 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: by what's known as a non unanimous jury ten people 526 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: guilty for manslaughter to vote innocent, and Ben you dug 527 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: up that this is a uniquely Oregonian thing, or maybe 528 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: there's a few other places, but it is definitely unusual 529 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: in the Yeah, in the United States, Oregon is the 530 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: only state that allows for non unanimous jury convictions for 531 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: pretty much every felony except for murder. So because two 532 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: people were against this on the jury, he gets acquitted 533 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: of the murder. That has to be a unanimous decision 534 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: of the jury, but the manslaughter charge does not. So 535 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: that's why it might sound really weird. Otherwise to hear 536 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: what on the face of it sounds like someone murdered 537 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: somebody and they got a ten year sentence. That's a 538 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: WTF moment. But but they have multiple charges knowing that 539 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: they might only get one, Like if it's one crime, 540 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 1: how come it's it's they're they're they're charging with with 541 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: murder and manslaughter. Well, he's eventually convicted of manslaughter. We 542 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,720 Speaker 1: just know that he was acquitted of the murder charge. 543 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: And here's the thing, this is where the story actually starts, folks. 544 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed the first forty minutes. Almost immediately, 545 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: it was clear that there were deep, profound problems with 546 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: this case. Here's where it gets crazy. Okay, I wrote 547 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: this kind of a messed up way. Nick mcguffin is 548 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: a freeman. Now Nick mcguffin's UH conviction was overturned. It 549 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: was overturned by the decision of a County Circuit judge 550 00:34:53,800 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 1: named Patricia Sullivan. In she says that this case, this 551 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: case won't fly. It's a violation of constitutional rights. It 552 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: turns out that Nick, who had been in prison for 553 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 1: nine years of his ten years sentence and maintaining his 554 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,439 Speaker 1: innocence throughout the whole almost a decade, it turns out 555 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: that there was stuff law enforcement didn't want him, his lawyers, 556 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: or the public to know. I think that's fair to say. 557 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: I think they didn't want people to know. No, you're right. 558 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: After further examination, it was found that remember those two 559 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: shoes that were discovered Lea's shoes, UH, there was d 560 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: n A, not amazing samples of DNA, but d n 561 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 1: A that was from a male that was not Nick, 562 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: and that evidence was not presented at the trial, so 563 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: it was not known by the defense that there was 564 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,919 Speaker 1: another possible suspects DNA president on major evidence in the case. Yeah, 565 00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:59,720 Speaker 1: I thought it was weird that we hadn't heard anything 566 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: about a bloody shoe, Like it just didn't come up right. Yeah, 567 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: the thing about the d n A in this case, 568 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 1: it's strange. Not all DNA samples are created equally. It's 569 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: funny because I was thinking of comparisons here, Like we 570 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,359 Speaker 1: brought up an excellent point about resources and a lot 571 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: of a lot of these investigations are cash strapped. Like 572 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: I was speaking to someone in Louisiana recently who told 573 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,320 Speaker 1: me that they were convinced they could solve some crimes 574 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: if they could just get like thirty dollars approved to 575 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: do some DNA tests, that they are waiting around for 576 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 1: like three or four separate cases, and that that seems strange. 577 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: But anyway, these these folks are struggling with what at 578 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: the time is a new technology that's not as advanced 579 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: as is now. So mcguffin gets an attorney, Janice Percale, 580 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,320 Speaker 1: and she's working with something called the Forensic Justice Project. 581 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: They're based in Portland's their non profit entity that focuses 582 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:14,240 Speaker 1: on either preventing wrongful convictions or correcting them, and she says, 583 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: there is no evidence against him being Nick mcguffin. He 584 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: just happened to be her boyfriend at the time. There 585 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,840 Speaker 1: were no eye witnesses, there were no DNA connecting to 586 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 1: the crime, there was no other evidence that tied him 587 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: to anything that happened to her. Quick note, when she 588 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: says there's no eye witnesses, she means there's no eye 589 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: witness that like sees him engaging an act of violence 590 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: against Leah fan Freeman. And Puracal is the one who 591 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 1: figures out this DNA evidence. She only learns about it, 592 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,879 Speaker 1: like again, almost a decade pass this original conviction, where 593 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,280 Speaker 1: it's not brought up at all a trial. She only 594 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: learns about it because she's sorting through all the old 595 00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:01,720 Speaker 1: paperwork from that first trial. And if you read news 596 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: about this older news and like the news that comes 597 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: out when she makes this d N A request, which 598 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: I think is around, you'll see you'll see the same 599 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: line popping up in the news, which is something like 600 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,839 Speaker 1: the DNA analysts at the time didn't disclose this information 601 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: due to an internal policy quote unquote internal policy. That's 602 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: the official reason. And this the decision that Judge Sullivan 603 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 1: makes is simply that whatever that internal policy at the 604 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: time was during the investigation, which we can talk a 605 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 1: little bit about, it was no longer the standard when 606 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: the case went to trial. So some policy they had 607 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: in two thousand one, two thousand two when they found 608 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: this DNA was no longer up to snuff when it 609 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 1: would have actually mattered in a court of law. That 610 00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 1: makes sense, and you know, to be fair law enforcement. 611 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: The Department of Justice, they're still defending that decision not 612 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: to disclose that DNA. Yes, and a gentleman named Paul 613 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 1: yme Is with the Oregon d o J. He defended 614 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: that that policy, saying that the authorities were quote very 615 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: cautious back then because they didn't know about all the 616 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 1: DNA stuff that was out there, so they were cautious 617 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: and conservative in their report writing. Is he saying that 618 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,319 Speaker 1: just DNA technology wasn't what it is today, Well, in 619 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 1: a way, it wasn't right and year two thousand to 620 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,800 Speaker 1: an extent. But at the same time, if you've got 621 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: such a small sample, maybe that's a trace from a 622 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: family member. You know, she lived with people, another friend, 623 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 1: she goes to school. You know, she's doing volleyball and 624 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,880 Speaker 1: other things. I'm I'm just imagining that if it's a trace, 625 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: like a small enough amount of DNA right that you 626 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 1: can't actually identify, maybe it's not worth even pursuing. We're 627 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,959 Speaker 1: thinking about the blood though specifically there's traces of male 628 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,320 Speaker 1: DNA found on both shoes, so so not necessarily the blood. 629 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: It was just, yeah, a blood stain would have one 630 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,920 Speaker 1: would imagine enough, yeah, they would meet the threshold of DNA. 631 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 1: But this if we look at Crystal the statements of 632 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 1: Crystal Bell, who is the Forensic Service Division Director for 633 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: OSP the Oregon State Police, we'll see that Bell tends 634 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:36,799 Speaker 1: to agree and says that the interpretation guidelines they had 635 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: didn't this is a quote from her, didn't necessarily distinguish 636 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,879 Speaker 1: or discern really low levels of d n A. So 637 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,959 Speaker 1: analysts at the time were they had personal discretion over 638 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: what they decided to report, but basically they needed to 639 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,799 Speaker 1: be very very sure of what they were saying. So 640 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: Bell is stating that this analystsercent sure what they were 641 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: looking at, right, and that was how little they found. 642 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,839 Speaker 1: But she also felled at has also claimed that, hey, 643 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 1: if someone had asked for this evidence to be re 644 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:16,280 Speaker 1: examined the lab would have done. So there's a problem 645 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 1: with that though, because the people who would have been 646 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: the people asking would have to know that the DNA 647 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 1: sample existed, which they didn't until when Purakal found out 648 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,400 Speaker 1: about it and made that request and so the judge. 649 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 1: So so their case to the judge was, Hey, if 650 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 1: the jury knew this, would it make a difference, And 651 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 1: the judge Sullivan eventually said yeah, I think it will, 652 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,919 Speaker 1: so overturn the conviction. What does this mean for Nick mcguffin, Well, 653 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,359 Speaker 1: it means that he still loses nine years of his life. Yeah, 654 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: he basically served his whole sentence. I mean, you know, 655 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,319 Speaker 1: he obviously has ground stuff for um a lawsuit and 656 00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: hopefully for some reparations, uh for that time, but you 657 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 1: can't get it back. Something that I feel it's been 658 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,600 Speaker 1: weirdly absent from all of this reporting is we know, 659 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: because of the decomposition and the you know, um effects 660 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:15,240 Speaker 1: of animals on the body, UM that that a true 661 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 1: cause of death was never able to be determined. But 662 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:22,440 Speaker 1: I mean, there was nothing like strangulation, that there was 663 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:24,640 Speaker 1: no signs of struggle, like you think that'd be the 664 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,480 Speaker 1: kind of stuff that you tear reported on it was 665 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,320 Speaker 1: it was her body was there for six weeks, so 666 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,840 Speaker 1: it's more than a month. It's it's hard unless you 667 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,320 Speaker 1: unless you've voluntarily looked at some of that stuff or 668 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:45,319 Speaker 1: researched it, you don't understand the what a body looks 669 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 1: like after six weeks and the degree of decay. So 670 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 1: there's no retrial. Also, you should know, we should know. 671 00:42:54,520 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 1: Sullivan clearly explicitly in her ruling, says me, overturning this 672 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 1: conviction is not the same thing as me saying Nick 673 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: mcguffin is innocent. I'm saying yet his rights violated. But 674 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:13,360 Speaker 1: there's not a retrial. The attorney at cous County, the 675 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: district Attorney, Paul Fraser, says he had several factors in 676 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,319 Speaker 1: his decision. He said the lab report, the death of 677 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 1: key witnesses, and the original non unanimous jury decision all 678 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 1: played into his reasons for not having a retrial, and 679 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,879 Speaker 1: on a personal note, he says also Leah Freeman's mother 680 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:40,240 Speaker 1: didn't want to experience the profound strain of a second trial. 681 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:42,759 Speaker 1: But that's not really the end of the story. This 682 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,120 Speaker 1: leads us to two deeply disturbing questions and a lot 683 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:50,400 Speaker 1: of us listening along at home can guess what they are. First, 684 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:54,920 Speaker 1: who actually is responsible for the for the death of 685 00:43:55,000 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 1: Leah Freeman? Second? What other cases have exculpatory evidence like 686 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,040 Speaker 1: DNA that would overturn a case? What kind of evidence 687 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 1: is there that, if it were revealed, could free innocent 688 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 1: people incarcerated today? That second question, it's tough to answer 689 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 1: for certain, but a case like this indicates that it 690 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,200 Speaker 1: is possible that there are similar situations out there, not 691 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,120 Speaker 1: just in Oregon, not just in the US, but across 692 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:28,000 Speaker 1: the globe. That first question, though, is the point of 693 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: this episode. So we're gonna pause for word from our sponsor, 694 00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 1: and then we'll ask who killed Leah Freeman. At first, 695 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,400 Speaker 1: it might seem that having DNA means it's only a 696 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:49,560 Speaker 1: matter of time before police do find another person, a 697 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,640 Speaker 1: man somehow involved with the case. It's true, I mean 698 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,719 Speaker 1: DNA has led to the reopening and even the resolution 699 00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 1: of other unsolved murders other assaults, and will do the 700 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: same in the future. But like we said, not all 701 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: DNA is the same. This isn't enough to determine a 702 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:10,720 Speaker 1: specific match. It's enough to when compared to mcguffin's DNA 703 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:15,040 Speaker 1: determine it's not him. Whoever left this was not him. 704 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,319 Speaker 1: But that's about it. Other than the fact that it's 705 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,799 Speaker 1: a male, that's about it. Well, yeah, and we you know, 706 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: we we heard from a listener who's knows someone who's 707 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 1: connected to this case, and we're going to leave it 708 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,160 Speaker 1: at that, but that they that there is potentially a 709 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 1: name associated with that sample. UM. Again, we cannot confirm this, 710 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 1: but that that is what we were told, and it 711 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,520 Speaker 1: checks out that this person is in contact with someone 712 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: who has intimate knowledge of this case. UM. Why that 713 00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 1: name was never released is very interesting. It likely has 714 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 1: to do with some of the thresholds that we're talking about, 715 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: or you know, the idea of um not wanting to 716 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 1: muddy the waters further. Maybe it's it's just it's very 717 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,719 Speaker 1: odd that the name was never released all and and 718 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 1: yet they were willing to drag this guy Nick, you know, 719 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,360 Speaker 1: through through the mud for for years and years and years, UM, 720 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,600 Speaker 1: with all the surveillance and stuff. But this person who's 721 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 1: close to the case, UH made the comment that if 722 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,000 Speaker 1: Nick wasn't the one who did it, that he likely 723 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 1: has knowledge of what actually happened. And because of the 724 00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:34,399 Speaker 1: way the investigation has gone and him being exonerated, that's 725 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,239 Speaker 1: case closed essentially. I mean they would have to open 726 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,279 Speaker 1: a new case, right or how how does that work 727 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,319 Speaker 1: if someone is convicted and that's overturned. Does that mean 728 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,839 Speaker 1: back to the drawing board for investigators now we're looking 729 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,880 Speaker 1: for a new suspect. Or does it mean that maybe 730 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,440 Speaker 1: he did do it, he served enough time that likely 731 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 1: all parties are satisfied. Like, I don't know, I'm just 732 00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,879 Speaker 1: wonder like, what's what's the next step. Well, the d 733 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 1: A seems to have it seems have indicated it was 734 00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,439 Speaker 1: their decision not to have a retrial, So that could 735 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,719 Speaker 1: have been a possibility, um, And I think you put 736 00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:13,879 Speaker 1: that very well again to this listener. We appreciate you, 737 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,920 Speaker 1: um profoundly for for reaching out with this, and we 738 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: do want to protect anonymity here. But there there's also 739 00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:26,160 Speaker 1: the possibility that someone associated may have died I believe, 740 00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:30,680 Speaker 1: may have passed away. Yeah, so there are other bits 741 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:35,080 Speaker 1: of evidence as well. You will see descriptions of paint 742 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:40,360 Speaker 1: chips found on Freeman shirt that don't match the paint 743 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,000 Speaker 1: around mcguffin's car. But again, at this time, there is 744 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,600 Speaker 1: not an easily determined cause of death been this least 745 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:53,880 Speaker 1: of speculation. Uh, that's pretty prevalent twenty years on about 746 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:59,200 Speaker 1: her demise. People will speculate, not prove, but speculate that 747 00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,799 Speaker 1: Freeman may have in struck by a car and that 748 00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:08,760 Speaker 1: whomever struck her with the car realized that they had 749 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:12,160 Speaker 1: killed her and decided not to report the deaths. So 750 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,920 Speaker 1: instead they took her body away to that rural area 751 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,760 Speaker 1: and left it there. And if that is the case, 752 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,840 Speaker 1: then they got away with it at least for now. Yeah. 753 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 1: That I that's mentioned in that and it's kind of 754 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,719 Speaker 1: just thrown away, right, It's like there, you know, there 755 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:32,280 Speaker 1: are a ton of theories. One of them said that happened, 756 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,040 Speaker 1: but we decided that didn't happen. But but but but 757 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,239 Speaker 1: why like again, but there's no if there's no defensive 758 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,960 Speaker 1: wounds or there's no like something indicating that it was 759 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,520 Speaker 1: I just never heard anybody say that it is where 760 00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:46,920 Speaker 1: the shoes were found, so far apart that does indicate 761 00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,200 Speaker 1: that maybe the body was moved or something like that. 762 00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:53,920 Speaker 1: Maybe what's the scenario where one shoe comes off in 763 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,960 Speaker 1: one place and then as they're driving, another shoe comes 764 00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:01,440 Speaker 1: off ten miles away is it someone fighting and struggling 765 00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,920 Speaker 1: to escape a vehicle where the shoes once who comes 766 00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,839 Speaker 1: off as she's being put into a vehicle, and then 767 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,080 Speaker 1: another comes off as she's being taken out of a vehicle. 768 00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:12,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I just yeah, I mean that that is 769 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,399 Speaker 1: sort of the That is sort of the weird thing here, 770 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,720 Speaker 1: like how why so far away? And the two shoes 771 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:21,799 Speaker 1: and that is You're right, man, I don't understand that 772 00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,360 Speaker 1: scenario either, but I still think it's odd they just 773 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:26,399 Speaker 1: discount the idea that she was hit by a car. 774 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,120 Speaker 1: And not to joke, but it is, does seem like 775 00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,360 Speaker 1: this town as a history of picking up people's shoes, uh, 776 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,760 Speaker 1: and you know, taking them home or maybe like taking 777 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,000 Speaker 1: them elsewhere. I don't know. It's I don't know if 778 00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,640 Speaker 1: they have a history of that. Maybe a history, but 779 00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:44,840 Speaker 1: it's there's a history of one, a sample size of one. Um. 780 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,280 Speaker 1: It's just an odd thing. It's an odd thing. Yeah, 781 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:52,879 Speaker 1: it is, and it leads to questions that can be disturbing, 782 00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,520 Speaker 1: but they're necessary to ask. There are any number of 783 00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:01,919 Speaker 1: scenarios that could lead to is happening? Right? It could 784 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:06,719 Speaker 1: even here's another thing that people don't point out. We 785 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,240 Speaker 1: know the order in which the shoes and the body 786 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,600 Speaker 1: were found, But we don't know the order in which 787 00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,600 Speaker 1: they ended up where they ended up, right, So I 788 00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:20,240 Speaker 1: think it's it's logical to assume that the first shoe 789 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:25,600 Speaker 1: was maybe the first thing that got dropped at its location. Maybe, 790 00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:28,399 Speaker 1: but it's not for certain. We don't know the order 791 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,760 Speaker 1: of operations. We don't know the timing here. And unless 792 00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,200 Speaker 1: you speak to the person who did this and they 793 00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:39,480 Speaker 1: admit to it, and they tell you, then it's highly 794 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:44,120 Speaker 1: unlikely that people will ever know. Uh In, The rumors 795 00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:51,800 Speaker 1: will continue because regardless what you think about Oregon State Police, 796 00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,920 Speaker 1: regardless what you think about the innocence or the guilt 797 00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:00,239 Speaker 1: of Nick mcguffin, it is very clear that this ace 798 00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:05,240 Speaker 1: was botched, and it's very clear that public opinion played 799 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:11,200 Speaker 1: an influential role in how the case proceeded. Right, And 800 00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:17,719 Speaker 1: this is not us commenting on mcguffin's innocence in any way. 801 00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:21,040 Speaker 1: This is just us saying here, you can tell where 802 00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:24,400 Speaker 1: things went off the rails and that DNA was important. 803 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:30,560 Speaker 1: But for his attorneys, it goes far beyond that. The 804 00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:34,560 Speaker 1: mishandling the case, as they would phrase, it extends to 805 00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:40,040 Speaker 1: not just withholding evidence, but to accusations of officers fabricating 806 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:45,280 Speaker 1: evidence or coercing witnesses or again, small town going around 807 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,160 Speaker 1: and spreading rumors, you know what I mean. Like the 808 00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:51,239 Speaker 1: the implication is, this is not a specific thing, this 809 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:56,600 Speaker 1: is just a hypothetical example. The implication is, let's say 810 00:51:56,719 --> 00:52:00,879 Speaker 1: you work on the force that's investigating this. You're hanging out, 811 00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,759 Speaker 1: you know, you're in a barbecue or something. It's like 812 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,319 Speaker 1: one of your friends kid's birthdays. It could be something 813 00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,000 Speaker 1: that casual. And then you say, you know, I can't 814 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:13,840 Speaker 1: say anything on the record, but I have you know, 815 00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,040 Speaker 1: blah blah blah stuff you could never get away with 816 00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,000 Speaker 1: saying in public or in court. It's very true. And 817 00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:22,440 Speaker 1: now guys, you know we have to do we have 818 00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,920 Speaker 1: to jump to again, but not the show or the 819 00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:32,680 Speaker 1: original show, the yes, yes last year, uh where everything 820 00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:39,000 Speaker 1: was clear in retrospect. Right today, Nick mcguffin is free. 821 00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,880 Speaker 1: He lives in the Portland area who works as a chef, 822 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:46,760 Speaker 1: and he filed last year a federal civil rights lawsuit 823 00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,640 Speaker 1: against the local police, against Couse Bay, against the Oregon 824 00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:55,800 Speaker 1: State Police departments, and against the Sheriff's office, and both 825 00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,880 Speaker 1: he and his legal teams say, we consider this death 826 00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:04,600 Speaker 1: an open case, and we're also looking we're hoping for 827 00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,400 Speaker 1: answers to who killed Lee of Freeman, which is interesting 828 00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,960 Speaker 1: given from what we learned from people connected with this. Again, 829 00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:16,920 Speaker 1: like you said, Noel, one of whom stated, if it 830 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:21,640 Speaker 1: wasn't mcguffin, then at least this person seems convinced that 831 00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,120 Speaker 1: he knows more than he's letting on. Right, was that 832 00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,560 Speaker 1: the sense of it? Yeah, it's it's it's an odd situation, 833 00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:30,359 Speaker 1: and it largely has to do with the It's it's 834 00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,279 Speaker 1: basically a technicality. You know, it does not remove him 835 00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,040 Speaker 1: from the list of possible people who could have committed 836 00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:40,680 Speaker 1: this crime, because his rights were certainly violated. Um. But 837 00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,239 Speaker 1: it's it's it's weird because it's it's it's like a 838 00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:46,880 Speaker 1: It leaves so many questions hanging, and it feels like 839 00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:48,920 Speaker 1: closure is never going to happen. I just have to 840 00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:52,959 Speaker 1: wonder how how this affects people who live in that town, 841 00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,560 Speaker 1: and how this affects the sheriff. He's obviously never gonna 842 00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:58,480 Speaker 1: claim that he did anything wrong. Um. He seemed very 843 00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:05,200 Speaker 1: right just in his actions. Um. But it's so up 844 00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,720 Speaker 1: in the air. Like, I can't imagine that anyone feels 845 00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,319 Speaker 1: particularly good about it, right, you know, I think it's 846 00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:14,839 Speaker 1: fair to say, I mean this. This means that it's 847 00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,200 Speaker 1: quite possible that law enforcement does have other suspects, but 848 00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:21,239 Speaker 1: they can't disclose their names, maybe due to a lack 849 00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:25,480 Speaker 1: of compelling evidence. And this is I know, like we're 850 00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,560 Speaker 1: talking about the dangers of speculation, but this is something 851 00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,040 Speaker 1: I was thinking of it. I have not been in 852 00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:35,879 Speaker 1: direct contact with law enforcement on this one. If they 853 00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:40,719 Speaker 1: were indeed incorrect their first step in solving this case, 854 00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,320 Speaker 1: or their first attempt to do so, can you imagine 855 00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:47,279 Speaker 1: how disastrous it would be to be wrong twice? That 856 00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,960 Speaker 1: is something I think they file under avoid at all costs. 857 00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:53,600 Speaker 1: Is it weird to think that they thought they were 858 00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:57,360 Speaker 1: right for nine straight years, or at least they convinced 859 00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:01,439 Speaker 1: themselves they were right for nine straight years, And maybe 860 00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,600 Speaker 1: they could just do that again, yeah, and get somebody 861 00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:08,720 Speaker 1: else innocent. Okay, sir, But this lawsuit, it does allege 862 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:13,000 Speaker 1: some pretty damning stuff. The lawsuit that mcguffin is bringing 863 00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:16,200 Speaker 1: on the feral level says that they created an entire 864 00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:22,560 Speaker 1: false narrative based on quote junk science, including fabricated polygraph results, 865 00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:29,000 Speaker 1: other fabricated evidence. We already know that polygraphs are. I'll 866 00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:32,719 Speaker 1: say it. They're they're malarkey. Can we say malarkey? Who 867 00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,600 Speaker 1: has it has been saying malarkey? Joe Biden does he 868 00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:41,279 Speaker 1: own that one? Though? It is Yeah, someone took over 869 00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:46,680 Speaker 1: the word maverick to anyway. Uh but they anyway, it's 870 00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:54,200 Speaker 1: polygraphs are not solid proof of what they're often purported 871 00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:58,960 Speaker 1: to be proving. Right, And there's an excellent I believe 872 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:02,040 Speaker 1: it's tech stuff is an excellent tech stuff episode about 873 00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:06,680 Speaker 1: the actual technology of polygraphs. Anyway, they also say that 874 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,560 Speaker 1: police did something they're not supposed to do, which is 875 00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:15,759 Speaker 1: suppressed or tamper with, or even destroy evidence that undermine 876 00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:22,000 Speaker 1: the credibility of witnesses, including evidence of their own misconduct, 877 00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:28,240 Speaker 1: evidence of their violations of this guy's rights. And again 878 00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:32,400 Speaker 1: on their part, the investigators on the case maintain that 879 00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,200 Speaker 1: they followed procedure, you know, And they're saying, we're not 880 00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:39,120 Speaker 1: trying to cover up something. We just had this policy 881 00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:41,880 Speaker 1: about DNA at the time and it didn't fit our threshold. 882 00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:45,640 Speaker 1: That's that's what their perspective is, and that means the 883 00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:49,520 Speaker 1: rumors are going to continue twenty more than twenty years on. 884 00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:52,359 Speaker 1: Many people in the town of co Kill feel that 885 00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:55,440 Speaker 1: they're still gonna wait, Like you said, Matt, for closure 886 00:56:55,800 --> 00:57:00,680 Speaker 1: for justice. And rumors can be dangerous and unfounded. Speculation 887 00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:05,680 Speaker 1: can quickly erroneously turn into some sort of truth when 888 00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:10,960 Speaker 1: everybody just happens to agree. But at this point we 889 00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:15,080 Speaker 1: know that we know that the facts don't all seem 890 00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:19,680 Speaker 1: to add up. What do you guys think about this, Well, 891 00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,040 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what I think. What matters is what 892 00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:24,640 Speaker 1: you think. Why don't you Why don't you write to us? 893 00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:27,800 Speaker 1: Find us on Facebook or Twitter or Instagram, any of 894 00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,959 Speaker 1: the social media is. Let us know how you feel. 895 00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:33,360 Speaker 1: If you get any information, like the person who reached 896 00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:35,440 Speaker 1: out to us, maybe there's something we need to know. 897 00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:39,000 Speaker 1: Please find us. We are conspiracy stuff on YouTube, Twitter, 898 00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:42,240 Speaker 1: and Facebook, on Instagram or a conspiracy stuff show. If 899 00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:44,160 Speaker 1: you don't want to contact us that way, you can 900 00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,920 Speaker 1: use your telephone. 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