1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Do you love country music? 2 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 1: Because I love country music. I'm forever singing to the Twins, 3 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: will burn that bridge when we get there. They call 4 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: the thing the rodeo. Man, what a great song this 5 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: would make. But sadly, it's not just a song. It's 6 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: not just lyrics to a country music ballad. It's real 7 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: and it includes a dead body. Love Gone Bad is 8 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,599 Speaker 1: certainly putting perfume on the pig. I've got to explain. 9 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: I got to figure out why a Boston business school 10 00:00:53,320 --> 00:01:00,279 Speaker 1: finance professor is charged with homicide for running of her 11 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: her cup boyfriend and leaving him to freeze to death 12 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: in a twenty three degree nor'easter. And sadly, I've got 13 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: a list of similar transactions as long as my arm 14 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: I mean. See, Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you 15 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: for being with us here at Fox Nation and series 16 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,839 Speaker 1: M one eleven. Why not just get a divorce? Why 17 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: do you have to run him down? And in one case, 18 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: I've got put it in reverse him back over him. 19 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: First of all, let's just start with this. Take a 20 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: listen to our cut one investigative reporter Ted Daniel Boston, 21 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: twenty five We've been working our sources to find out 22 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: what may have happened this weekend. The cause of Officer 23 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: Keith's death has not been officially determined, but this is important. 24 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: Twenty five Investigates has learned o'keith had a serious head injury. 25 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: He suffered some sort of trauma. The case is being 26 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: handled by detectives assigned to the Norfolk County DA's office. 27 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: Twenty five Investigates has learned they're looking at the possibility 28 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: o'keef may have been struck by a vehicle. I asked 29 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: the Norfolk DA's office about that. A spokesperson was unable 30 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 1: to comment because of the ongoing investigation. That's pretty standard 31 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: in a case like this. Officer O'Keefe's body was discovered 32 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: outside a home on Fairview Road in Canton around six 33 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: o'clock Saturday morning. The home belongs to another Boston Police officer. 34 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,959 Speaker 1: It was snowing hard at the time and temperatures were 35 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 1: in the teen's overnight. According to the DA's office, o'keith 36 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: appeared to have been in the cold for some time 37 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: before I entroduce to you our whole panel, and what 38 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: a panel it is. Let me get first to dactor 39 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the entire state of Florida. 40 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: First of all, breathe easy, just a mom and Gallagher 41 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: because this time it's not Orlando. This time it's not Florida. 42 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: So doctor Tim GALLAGHERY can find it at pathcaremad dot com. 43 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 1: Listen to this University of Florida Medical School Forensic Madison Professor, 44 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: founder and host of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference, 45 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: which again I just can't say enough to a lot 46 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: of people. They go you to me, that sounds like, 47 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: just Jackie, How great would that be? International Forensic Medicine 48 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: Death Investigation Conference. It just doesn't get much better than that. Okay, 49 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: doctor Tim Gallagher, did you hear what investigative reporter Ted 50 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: Daniel Boston twenty five said right there at the end, 51 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: According to the District Attorney's office, O'Keefe, who was in 52 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: great health, he is a cop, appear to have been 53 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: in the cold for some time. What does that mean? Well, 54 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: that means that when we acquire his body. And again, Nancy, 55 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. I'm in Florida. We don't get a 56 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: lot of these hypothermia deaths, but occasionally we do sometimes 57 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: it gets down to about seventy in Miami and we 58 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: get a few. But Peppy in Gallagher rubbing in, what 59 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: does that mean? You look at a body and you 60 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: automatically know he's not just cold. He's been out there 61 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: a long time, you do, because there's such a thing 62 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: as rigor mortis, and that's the stiffening of the body. 63 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: But that happens to everybody no matter what the temperature. 64 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,239 Speaker 1: It sure does, but it dissipates after a certain amount 65 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: of time. But if if the body is cold and 66 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: it's been on the cold for a very long time, 67 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: it does not dissipate until that body is warmed up again, 68 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: you know. So if we know that he has been 69 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:39,679 Speaker 1: out there for a time period by which the rigor 70 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: mortis would end, and he still has it, then we 71 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: know that he has been subject to either refrigeration or 72 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: cold temperature. You know, I was expecting something completely different. 73 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: I didn't know you were going to say, daughter, Tim Gallagher, 74 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: the rigor mortis would have been relaxed. In other words, 75 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: his limbs would have riggered. Steffen and then and Steffen, 76 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: I thought you were going to say something like the 77 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 1: body was gray, the lips were blue. There was frozen 78 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: residue from his breath around his nose and mouth. His 79 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: eyes were frozen shut, His hair was full of ice. 80 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: His temperature was the same as a beyond air, which 81 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: would have been in the team's His nails, finger nails, 82 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: and toe nails were blue. His tongue was frozen. That's 83 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: what I thought you were gonna say, but you didn't 84 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: or any of those things true. When you find a 85 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: frozen body, Okay, take another shot at it. Okay, you know, 86 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: let me just enjoyed this moment, just for a minute, 87 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: when a low hey, Jim Elliott, high profile lawyer joining 88 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: me out of Warner Robbins of counsel or snow dot com. 89 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: How often do we get to correct a medical examiner 90 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: or any doctor? Never? Because so can you? And I 91 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: just enjoy this moment, Jim Elliott. Ye, see the great 92 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: rivalry between the two professionals drivers. I don't have a rivalry. 93 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: I know they're smarter than us. I don't know why 94 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: lawyers think that. But let me just enjoy the moment 95 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: making doctor Tim Gallagher take a second swing at the ball. Okay, 96 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: doctor Gallagher hit it. Okay, well, Nancy Um, When a 97 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: body is subjected to cold temperatures. We'll see sometimes we'll 98 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: see ice crystals in the hair. Sometimes we'll see that, 99 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: yet eyes are often frozen, shuts, the tims are frozen, 100 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: that the muscles are are frozen all the way through. 101 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: We do see that a lot in Chicago during the 102 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: u during the winter months or even some of the 103 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: summer months. But the difficulty with that is the moment 104 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: the body is defrosted, which often takes about two or 105 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: three days to do very slowly, it immediately decomposes and 106 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: we lose a lot of the evidence. You know. Okay, well, 107 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: I've got to get that through my head. As soon 108 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: as the body defrosts, which takes two or three days, 109 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: why does it take two or three days for a 110 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: body to defrost? Well, we have to do it very 111 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: slowly because this is the medical examin or defrosting it. 112 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: You don't mean like in my kitchen sink. No, you 113 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't want to do that. Now, I'm saying, typically something 114 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: would defrost much faster than three days. So why does 115 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: it take a human body three days to defrost? Well, 116 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: because we're trying to do it in a scientific manner. 117 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: We want it, we take it out of the freezer 118 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: and put it in a refrigerated area and then raise 119 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: that temperature a couple of degrees every few hours to 120 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: defrost it very slowly. We're trying to preserve a lot 121 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: of the evidence on the bodies, such as bruising or 122 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: penetrating injuries. What's that a penetrating entry. What's a penetrating entry? Well, 123 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: a penetrating injury could either be a ballistic type injury 124 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: from a bullet then being shot, or it could be 125 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: a sharp force type injury from being stabbed um. And 126 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: also we have to look out for blunt force injuries, 127 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: which are someone being assaulted by a blunt weapon such 128 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: as a baseball bat or the credenza, you know, So 129 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: we have to be careful about that credenza. You mean 130 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: the piece of furniture that's behind a desk, that's the one. 131 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: Why would somebody be hit with a credenza? You need 132 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: to call your bad cut man. I'm telling you hold 133 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: on a moment. But let me understand this. So there's 134 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: a whole science to defrosting a human body. Cheryl, did 135 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: you know this? Cheryl mccaullough. Absolutely, And what he's saying 136 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: is so imperative, Nancy, because that was Cheryl. You're not 137 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: You're not sorry, and we all know you're not sorry. 138 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: Hold on, wait a minute. Got to Gallagher. There's a 139 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 1: whole science to defrosting a body. And from what I'm 140 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: slowly pulling from you like I'm a dentist, okay, which 141 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: I'm not pulling it to. You get the body. You 142 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: start to defrost. At first it's in the freezer, You 143 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: take it out of a phraser, You put it in 144 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: a medical gender's refrigerator, and then you very slowly, such 145 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: as a couple of degrees at a time, you warm 146 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: up the fridge to the body defrosts very very slowly, 147 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: so you can't preserve physical evidence on the body such 148 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: as bruising or penetrating injury such as gunshot, wound or 149 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: knife or you said credenza. I don't know where that 150 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: came from, but that too. So doctor Gallagher, you're telling 151 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: me that if the body heats up too quickly, you 152 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: lose that evidence because the body immediately decomposes. Yeah, it 153 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: goes into a very accelerated rate of decomposition. And you 154 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: have to also remember we're trying to collect foreign DNA 155 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: from the body as well. You know, so when the 156 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 1: skin decomposes, it becomes very liquidy, and we could lose 157 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: a foreign DNA from the surface of the body too. 158 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: So that's the rationale between defrosting very slowly and not 159 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: doing it that way. Time Stories with Nancy Grace So 160 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: to Jennifer Zikowski joining us investigated freelance journalist. Jennifer, You've 161 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: been on so many cases. You ever had a frozen 162 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,079 Speaker 1: body case? I have not. Wait, didn't we do? Was 163 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: it Shannon Young? In Indiana? We had Graves Shannon Graves, 164 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:02,719 Speaker 1: Shannon Graves found in a freezer in Indiana, right, And 165 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: I was giving a speech there and went down to 166 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: the hotel restaurant and heard a judge and a lawyer talking. 167 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: So I went up and said, Hey, what's going on? 168 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: And they told me about this case and I found 169 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: out about Shannon Gray's found in a freezer. Yes, you 170 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: didn't do that one, Jennifer. I could not do that one. Okay, 171 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: So have you ever had a frozen body? Did you say? No? 172 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: I have not. Well, I'd write about many living in Wisconsin, 173 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: but I've never gone into depths on one. Well, I'm 174 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: glad we're your first Okay, take a listen now to 175 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: our cut two. This is Ryan Cath NBC ten. The 176 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: Norfolk District Attorney tells me an autopsy was performed today 177 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: which will hopefully answer the question of how Officer o'keef died. 178 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 1: Right now, I'm told that foul play has not been 179 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: ruled out. Investigators are also trying to determine why he 180 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: was apparently outside in the cold for an extended period 181 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:05,359 Speaker 1: of time. He stop thinking, waited road for an unresponsive 182 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: mail party in the stove. First responders found O'Keefe just 183 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: after six am and took him to Good Samaritan Hospital 184 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: in Brockton, where the sixteen year veteran of the force 185 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: was pronounced dead. The DA's office that O'Keefe was outside 186 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: a property on Fairview Drive and knows the person who 187 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: owns the home. Property records show the home is owned 188 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 1: by someone who has the exact same full name and 189 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: middle initial as a Boston Police sergeant. The department would 190 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: not confirm that today. I also checked and asked if 191 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: any internal affairs cases have been open and if anyone 192 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: has been placed unadministrative leave. A spokesperson told me the 193 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: answer to that is no. Wow. So immediately the police 194 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: department is asked if internal affairs cases have been opened 195 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: and if anyone has been placed on administrative leave. I 196 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: find that really interesting. Cheryl McCollum joining me, found a 197 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: director of Coal Case Research Institute. You can find her 198 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: at Coalcase Crimes dot org. Cheryl, why would they immediately 199 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,719 Speaker 1: ask they find this cop dead with some kind of 200 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: blow to the head and he's frozen. He is frozen 201 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: through and through. Why would they immediately ask if internal 202 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: affairs cases have been opened and if anybody's on administrative leave? 203 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: Because early on they didn't know what happened to him, 204 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: So they're going to look at You've got a dead 205 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: body out in front of a sergeant's home, led to 206 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: the police know and that's the best way to find 207 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 1: out what they know. Have y'all started an internal affairs investigation? 208 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: That means you must be looking at that sergeant that 209 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: owns the home. If they haven't, then they're not looking 210 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: at him. Real quick A to b guys, what happened 211 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: to this victim? John O'Keefe. First of all, when I 212 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: don't know the answer, I look at the victim. Who 213 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: is O'Keefe? What do I know? About him. Take a 214 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: Little Star three reporter Drew cretys Boston twenty five officer 215 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: O'Keefe visited the Boston twenty five News studios in two 216 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: thousand fourteen to talk about a fundraiser for his niece 217 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: and nephew who lost both of their parents. O'Keefe went 218 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: on to care for those kids following the deaths of 219 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: his sister to a brain tumor and his brother in 220 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: law to a heart attack in a matter of months. 221 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: A steaman released by the O'Keefe family says, quote, people 222 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: talk about someone who would give you the shirt off 223 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: their back, but that was truly who John was, and 224 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: it's heartbreaking for us to suddenly be talking about him 225 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: in the past. Tense too. Doctor Jen Man guys, you 226 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: know her well, marriage family therapist, hosts of Couples Therapy 227 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: and Family Therapy on VH one The Doctor Jen Show, 228 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: which is awesome on Serious ex sam and she is 229 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: the author of The Relationship Fix. You can find her 230 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: at doctor Jen je Nan dot com. Doctor Jen you know, 231 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: I hear women say all the time there are no 232 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: good men left. Oh that's not true. I've got one. 233 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: David Lynch is a great guy and he's taken Jen, 234 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: so back off. But you got to go myself, so 235 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: you're safe. Your man is safe with me. Thank you. 236 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: What did you just hear? What? Drew Carretty said, Boston 237 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: twenty five. When this guy's niece and nephew lost both 238 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: of their parents, including his sister, he took the children 239 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: in and was taking care of them. He's it is said, 240 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: he would give you the shirt off their back. He 241 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: sounds like a saint. He sounds like one of the 242 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: sweetest kind of human beings. Who you know, it was 243 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: there for children in need, who it takes some responsibility, 244 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: who is a protector, who's a hero? He sounds like 245 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: an amazing He was an amazing human being. And doctor 246 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: Jen just you know, making a donation in the church 247 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: plate that's one thing, but actually taking the children into 248 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 1: your home and agreeing to raise them, that is a 249 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: lifelong commitment he made absolutely. And also these are children 250 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: who have been through a terrible loss, and as we know, 251 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: a lot of the time when children have been through 252 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: a terrible loss, they have a lot of their own 253 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: issues that have to be worked out. And so to 254 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: take that on, especially what a wonderful person, you know, 255 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: I'm just thinking this through about what happened, and I 256 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: just made a note It was about can't they tell 257 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: by looking at him, doctor Tim Gallagher, whether he had 258 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: a blow to the head or whether he's struck by 259 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: a car. Can't they look at the imprint on the 260 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: head and determine that. Well, you certainly can answer a 261 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: great question. You know. We do have a lot of 262 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: technology that we use in conjunction with our visual inspection. 263 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: We take X rays and we can see broken bones 264 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: from the X rays. We also have something called low docks, 265 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: a cat scan machine that we can put the entire 266 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: body through and it'll show us in very good detail 267 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: the bone structure and all the organ structure. So if 268 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: there is any damage to the organs such as the 269 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: lungs or the brain or even the heart, it'll be 270 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: demonstrated on our lowdocs cat scan. So there are several ways, 271 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: and we could also look for metal objects in the body, 272 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: knife tips, blaze of bullets using this technology. So we're 273 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: very well equipped to find the cause of death in 274 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: any situation. And in this case, whether he was run 275 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: over or beaten, whoever did that leaves him out in 276 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: the snow to freeze dead if he wasn't already dead, 277 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: So who is this guy? Take a listen to our 278 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,239 Speaker 1: cut four Boston twenty five, Monday. O'Keefe's family asked for 279 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: privacy while they came out to look at the spot 280 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: where he was discovered. It's another tragedy for a family 281 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: that has already lost a lot. Boston twenty five News 282 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: learned O'Keefe had adopted his niece and nephew after his 283 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: sister passed away from cancer in twenty thirteen and his 284 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: brother in law died from a heart attack shortly after. 285 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: It's sad, especially where they had so much tragedy in 286 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: their life already, and an internal memo Boston Police Superintendent 287 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: and Chief Gregory Long said this police officer O'Keeffe was 288 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: highly regarded by those he worked with, his supervisors, and 289 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: all that knew him, both internally and within the communities 290 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: of Boston that he served. Now we know tonight that 291 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: the Cannon Police Department here behind us is working with 292 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: State Police and the Norfolk County District Attorney's Office to 293 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: get to the bottom of whatever happened. And our eight 294 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: Boston twenty five the circumstances of how officer John O'Keeffe 295 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: ended up unresponsive in a snowbank. Still surrounded in uncertainty. 296 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 1: Prosecutors say the cause of death was skull fractures, with 297 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: hypothermia as a contributing factor. The biggest question, though, remains 298 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: how did it happen? So, when you have a blow 299 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 1: to the head, regardless of how you get it, doctor 300 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: Tim Gallagher, coupled with hypothermia, how do you tell which 301 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: one caused the death? Well, that's always the question. Answer. 302 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: You have to triage everything according to your experience, your education. 303 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: And you're reading just these skulls fractured in a way 304 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: that whether they're frozen or not, you would have attributed 305 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: that to the death. Then yes, these skull fractures would 306 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: have happened before the hypothermia. If the injury doesn't look 307 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: fatal and they do have the hypothermia, well then reason 308 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: would stand that the hypothermia caused the death and that 309 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: the blow to the head was just a contributor. Time 310 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace, Jim Elliott joining US high profile 311 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: lawyer out of Warner Robins Georgia at Butler Snow dot com. 312 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: Jim Elliott the reason I am honing in on cause 313 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: of death cod is because it could become a very 314 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: very let me just say, sticky legal issue. If someone 315 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: ran over him or someone hit him in the head, 316 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 1: but he didn't die from that, and then he died 317 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: of hypothermia, that individual could argue I was not the 318 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: cause of death. I could argue that. I mean, there 319 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 1: are ben't even number of factors there. Felony murder, yep, 320 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: you know the intent of the perpetrator, whoever that may be. 321 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 1: And I think there's a big difference in the allegation 322 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: about being hit by car versus pay head with something. 323 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: Why because one's clearly intentional, the other arguably could be 324 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: accidental or good point. Good point, Jim Elliott. See, that's 325 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: why you go to law school for so many years, 326 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: because you learn how to part on only words but issues. 327 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: He's absolutely right, even though dead is dead, can't change 328 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: that the intent behind hitting somebody with a baseball bat 329 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: in the head and leaving them, leaving them in the 330 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: son to die, as opposed to accidentally hitting them, maybe 331 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: not even knowing you hit somebody and leaving them outside 332 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: not realizing what you had done, or hitting them on 333 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: purpose and leaving them there. So Jim Elliott is the 334 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: high profile lawyer because things just like that that issue 335 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: he identified on the bar exam Jim Elliott, and in 336 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: legal exams log exams at school, one of the main 337 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: things professors look for is whether you can spot issues. 338 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 1: If you can't spot an issue, you're no good to anybody. 339 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: You have to be legally trained to spot every single issue. 340 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: And Jim, as a matter of fact, to the district 341 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: Attorney's office as the first place a new lawyer would 342 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 1: go is to indictments, where you would read police report 343 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: after report after report, and you would spot every single 344 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: conceivable charge and they would be indicted on every single charge, 345 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: and then that would be handed to a jury appetit 346 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 1: jury of twelve to determine which, if any, charges were correct. 347 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: So is she spotting is a big deal and you 348 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: just made a very good point, Jim Elliott, looks one 349 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: of my law students to again enjoy that moment. Okay, 350 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 1: so we find this guy out in the cold. Now 351 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: you've got to figure out who left him there. And 352 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: as Cheryl McCollum pointed out, the first place they apparently 353 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: look as at the sergeant whose home he is in 354 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: front of. Investigators say The couple have been invited to 355 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: an after party at a home on Fairview Road in 356 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: Kenton early Saturday morning. After going to several bars, including Waterfall, 357 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 1: Court documents say Read decided did not go to the 358 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: party because she was having stomach issues. Okay to you, 359 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: Jennifer Sakowski, Who's Karen Reid. Karen Reid is Boston Police 360 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: officer John O. Keith's girlfriend of approximately two years, and 361 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: they had been out bar hopping that night in during 362 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: a northeastern storm, which in Wisconsin we call a blizzard, 363 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: but it is different because the winds are so much higher, 364 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: and so they had been bar hopping. Then she said 365 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: she had a stomach ache. Allegedly said that she had 366 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: a stomach ache and that's why she didn't attend the 367 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: party with her boyfriend with the police officer, and said 368 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: that she dropped tomorrow and not worried later when he 369 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: had not ever make it to the party. I don't 370 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 1: believe he made it to the party. Oh, Okay to 371 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, forensics expert, founder director of the Coal Case 372 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: Research Institute. Cheryl McCollum, how many times have I argued 373 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: to a jury nothing good happens after midnight. Oh at 374 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: nauseam absolutely, thank you for that. I'm gonna tell you 375 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: that it's a compliment, but go ahead. Oh it's the 376 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: truth though, And in our business we see it over 377 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: and over and over again. The longer you stay after midnight, 378 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 1: the more chances there are that something's going to go very, 379 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: very bad. So she gets a stomach ache and leaves 380 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: drops him off. He never makes it into the party, 381 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: according to Jennifer Zakowski, and then he's found dead. I 382 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: guess where she drops him off, Jennifer. Yes, they didn't 383 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: say exactly yet exactly how far from you know, maybe 384 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: the entrance to the party. But yes, and she had 385 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: allegedly told a friend when they were going to check 386 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: on him, because by four or thirty in the morning 387 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: or so, she started to get worried, apparently who that 388 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: he hadn't shown home. Well, just like all of us, 389 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: police become suspicious. Take a listen to our cut nine 390 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: Boston twenty five Prosecutor's a ledge. She dropped off O'Keefe, 391 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: made a three point turn to reverse the car, rammed 392 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 1: into her boyfriend, and then left him for dead. Did 393 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: she have any idea that she hit him or did 394 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: she have no idea that she hit him? Boston twenty 395 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: five News legal analyst Peter Elkan says details revealed during 396 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: Reid's a Raymond leave more questions than answers. Court documents 397 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: say she became frantic as she called and texted O'Keefe 398 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: later that morning and got no response. Prosecutors say two 399 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 1: friends returned to the scene with her. One reportedly told 400 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: authorities she believed Karen was still intoxicated in the morning, 401 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: and said Reid told her she did not remember last night. 402 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: The friend also told authorities that Reid said to her quote, 403 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: I wonder if he is dead. It's snowing. He got 404 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: hit by a plow. I wonder if he's dead. It's snowing. 405 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: He got hit by a plow. Wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, 406 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 1: wait wait is that Jeffer Szigowski? Is that the girlfriend 407 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: Karen Reid talking she thinks he got She suggested he 408 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: got hit by a plow. Yes, that is what the 409 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: friend was saying. Okay, hold on right there, I mean, 410 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 1: how likely is it, everybody jump in Cheryl McCollum, that 411 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: a snowplow is out at one or two o'clock in 412 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: the morning, Nancy. They're in the middle of the northeaster. 413 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: That's about the dumb but an unbelievable amount of snow 414 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,719 Speaker 1: on that area. I don't think there were any plows 415 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 1: out at all. And it also begs the question, what 416 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: does she think he was doing? Was he rendered motionless 417 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: in the middle of the street. Why would he stand 418 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: there and let a snowplow move in fifteen miles an hour? 419 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: Hit him? What about a Jim Elliott Way would be 420 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: her immediate go to get hit? Um? Did I hit him? 421 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: I mean, I find it very hard to believe that 422 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: she had no knowledge of what we believe happened. And 423 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 1: isn't it show Jennifer Sikowski she said something else to 424 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,199 Speaker 1: the same friend that she told the snowplows story. What 425 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: did she say? Yes, So she told that friend that 426 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: she did not remember the night before, which I find 427 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: very interesting because how does she not remember the night 428 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: before and what happened with her boyfriend? If she could 429 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: remember that she had a stomach ache and couldn't go 430 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,159 Speaker 1: to the party, what did she say following the fatality? 431 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut twelve This is Diane Show, 432 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 1: NBC ten Reid's attorney says she tried to call O'Keefe 433 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: a number of times, wondering where he was, and had 434 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: no idea anything had happened to him. This was not 435 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: some random stranger. This was my client's boyfriend, somebody with 436 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: whom she was in love. Prosecutors they read and a 437 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: couple of friends went looking for O'Keefe On Saturday morning. 438 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: Defended was to his start or the drive and had 439 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: the other friend miss carry it's following. While driving to 440 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: the victim's house, the defendant stated, Tomas McCabe, could I 441 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: have hit him? Did I hit him? Prosecutors say after 442 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: season reads black Lexus SUV authorities noticed a crack in 443 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: the right rear tail light. Oh, forensic cabinets right there, 444 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 1: the right rear tail light. Okay to you, Jim Elliott, 445 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: You've done plenty of accident reconstructions. What does that tell you? 446 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: A crack and the right rear tail lot for Lexus SUV. 447 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 1: Clearly you hit something, and I'm sure the forensic investigation 448 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: will disclose exactly one and maybe perhaps any traces of 449 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: blood or human tissue or anything of that sort. What 450 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: is a three point turn in the street? What is that, Nancy, 451 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: I can explain it. Jump in. If you're part and 452 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: you're headed north, you're going to bank your car to 453 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: the right forward. You're going to back up one time, 454 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: and then you're gonna be able to turn your car 455 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: to be able to go southbound and go forward again. 456 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: So you're only backing up one time, and it's usually 457 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: a good distance in front of where your part. So 458 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: again my concern is how did he now get in 459 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: front of her if she left him out of the 460 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: car for her to not see him when she backed 461 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: up after moving forwards a good distance. Crime Stories with 462 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, Guys, we are talking about long time police 463 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: officer John O'Keefe who had just adopted his little niece 464 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: and nephew after his sister died of cancer and her 465 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: husband so they died of a heart attack. He's found 466 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: with a horrible head injury, frozen out in the snow 467 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: on his way into a cop party at a sergeant's house. 468 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: If the two year girlfriend Karen Reid is responsible, it 469 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't be the first time a woman plows a man down. 470 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut twenty one from our 471 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: Friend's at Discovery Most Evil David agrees to end his affair, 472 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: but on the night of July twenty fourth, two thousand 473 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: and two, Clara learns that David and Gale have checked 474 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: into a hotel. I can't believe it. A sin shot. 475 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: I started shaking and I started crying. When Clara Harris 476 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: sees her husband David with his mistress, her jealousy explodes. 477 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,959 Speaker 1: She attacks him in the hotel parking lot, hitting him 478 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: head on with her care and running him over several times. 479 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: As David lies dying on the asphalt, Clara gets out 480 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: of her car and tells him that she loves him. Okay, 481 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: well that made it all better. Not only did she 482 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: run over him, this is where death by Mercedes came 483 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: from from her, Clara Harris, she did it. She and 484 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: her husband had twin boys who would then left without 485 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: a father and a mother because Mommy ran him down 486 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: in the parking lot of the hotel where he was 487 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: snugged up with his mistress, who I think was like 488 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: an office manager. Please just surprise me, just one time, Jackie, 489 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: one time. So not only does she run him down 490 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: right there front of God and everybody in the parking 491 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: lot of the hotel, she then puts it in reverses 492 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: as she backs over his body, jumps out and says, 493 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: I love you now die. Okay, nobody can't forget death 494 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: by saying these. Jim Elliott, we've you've handled a lot 495 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: of cases. Let me just say, ephemistically, marital discord, what 496 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: happens in people's minds. Why don't they just get a divorce? 497 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, beyond explanation for people like you 498 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: and me, because it's illogical that that kind of passion 499 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: turned from love to hate that quickly into that degree. 500 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: You know, I'm just curious to you, doctor Jim Mann. 501 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: And first of all, why not just get a divorce? 502 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: First question? But number two, in this case, they're not 503 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: even married. They don't have to worry about separating the 504 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: dishes and custody and the dog and the insurance and 505 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: the vanguard. They don't have to worry about any of that. 506 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: They can just get you know what, it's not working, bye, 507 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: That's all. That's it. So why, Well, these are people 508 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: with very unhealthy attachments, and a lot of the time 509 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: someone who is attached in that kind of pathological way 510 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: thinks that they're like will cease to exist without this 511 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: other person or their identity is completely hung on this 512 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: other person, or they feel that this pathological kind of jealousy. 513 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: If I can't have them, nobody else can to Jennifer Siakowski, Wait, 514 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: did I hear Cheryl McCollum jump here, Cheryl Nancy? I 515 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: was just going to say, there's a lot of questions 516 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: here that we have to know the answer to. And 517 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: one is going to be, of course, why didn't she 518 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: go to the party? Really wasn't a stomach ache? Was 519 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: it something else? Number two? How did no other party 520 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: goer getting to the party or leaving not see him? 521 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: Where was his body in relation to that front door? 522 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: How is he supposed to get home? You say you're 523 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: not feeling well, you live an hour away, but you 524 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: drop him off at this party? How is he supposed 525 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: to get home? Like a lot of this is not 526 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: making sense to me at all. You know, I'm trying 527 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: to figure out, Jennifer Sikowski, what was their problem? Do 528 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: we know the source of her anger? If in fact 529 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: she did this thing? We don't not that I've seen 530 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: of what she's biming it non Essentially is that she 531 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: was in a blackout state and literally doesn't remember anything, 532 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: But again, she happened to remember that she had a 533 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: stomach ache, and that tells me that she's she's covering 534 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 1: something else up. His injuries were so extensive. I mean 535 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: he suffered not only a multiple gull fractures, but a 536 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,479 Speaker 1: two inch laceration to the back of his head, two 537 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,760 Speaker 1: black eyes, injuries to his forearms, and his clothes holding 538 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: was covered in blood and vomit. So how do you 539 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: The only way wouldn't know that you hit someone to 540 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 1: that extent is if you were absolutely bombed from alcohol. 541 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: And this day and age, there's just no excuse for that, 542 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: especially coming from a professor. It makes no sense. And 543 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: I'm always surely rubbing them all. Yeah, is that Jim Elliott? 544 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: I was going to ask you, Jim Malliott, and to 545 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCallum. What also amazes me is that how many 546 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:13,880 Speaker 1: people hit on purpose or run somebody down by accident, 547 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: and they drive away and they leave and they leave 548 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 1: the person there to die. I mean, what goes through 549 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: their mind over the next hours as they let the 550 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: person die and the person could have been saved. It 551 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: reminds me the first time I covered a case like this, 552 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: I had plenty of hitting runs of vehicular homicides. I prosecuted, 553 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: but this name always sticks in my mind. Chantey Mallard. Listen, 554 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,399 Speaker 1: I are cut eighteen. The police department only a matter 555 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: of miles away on Mill Street, but she didn't go there. 556 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: John Petersmith Hospital a street shot down two eighty seven, 557 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,760 Speaker 1: a hospital Miss Mallard was familiar with, but she didn't 558 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: go there. Instead, you will hear that she chose to 559 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: drive home with Greg Biggs still lodged in her car, 560 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:14,320 Speaker 1: seriously wounded and bleeding, moaning when they hit a bump, 561 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 1: and she drove home to her house at thirty eight 562 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 1: forty world larger, and she drove in the garage, and 563 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 1: she closed the garage door, and she turned off the car, 564 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:34,720 Speaker 1: and she apologized, and he moaned, and he tried to speak, 565 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: and all she could do was crying and apologize. She 566 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: told the police, I'm talking about Chante Mallard. She hits 567 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,280 Speaker 1: the guy that was walking across the street, and instead 568 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: of going to the police station or the hospital, which 569 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: was a clear shot. Wasn't a big town, she goes home, 570 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: pulls into a garage, closes the door and leaves the 571 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: guy and paled into her winch ill and waits for 572 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: him to die. I don't get it, Jim Elliott. I mean, 573 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: I know that's evidence after the fact, which is admissible 574 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: at trial, but it's damning, of course, certainly. And you know, 575 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: I think my personal opinion is I think a lot 576 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: of times when people have those sort of delays, they're drunk, 577 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: they're drug impaired, whatever, and I think they believe that 578 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: as time lapses at least that charge against them will 579 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 1: go away. So but I mean, hell callous, just trying 580 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: to figure out why this woman, Karen Reid, according to prosecutors, 581 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: runs down her boyfriend of two years and leaves him 582 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 1: there with a serious head injury to freeze and the 583 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 1: snow jump is Cheryl McCallum, drunk, don't make you deaf, Nancy. 584 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: This would have made an undeniable sound. So not only 585 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: should she have felt she hit something, she would have 586 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: absolutely hurt it. You know, she's really beautiful, I mean beautiful, 587 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: long looks, kind of golden hair, perfect teeth. She is 588 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: a professor. Where is she a professor? Jennifer Zikowski does? 589 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 1: Does she teach finance? Yep? She does at Bentley University. 590 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,319 Speaker 1: So this is a woman that knows better. It's not 591 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: as if she is not well versed, and probably the 592 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: law and much more. We don't know the root of 593 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,360 Speaker 1: her anger. Jennifer know nothing about it. They've been together 594 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,800 Speaker 1: two years, she's forty one years old. Did they break 595 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: off their relationship? Did she want to get married? Had 596 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: he she What was the source of all her anger? 597 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I think that's going to come out, 598 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 1: and I'm gutting police officers. Investigators have a lot more 599 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: information than we do, talking to friends and looking at 600 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 1: surveillance set me have been in the neighborhood. Oh well, 601 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: that's a good point right there, because guess what, Cheryl McCollum, 602 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: investigate appear to have footage of the actual incident on 603 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 1: guess what a ring doorbell? I love ring doorbells, and 604 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: this is one of the reasons I love him. What 605 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: do you think about that, Cheryl? That's going to be 606 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,359 Speaker 1: a money tree for the prosecution. There's no question about it. Here. 607 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 1: It is in real time. You want to know what 608 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 1: happened to this man, we can show you, you know. 609 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: I'm just curious about what was going through her mind. 610 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: Jim Elliott, you have represented people in the past that 611 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: do a horrible thing like this, then when an hour 612 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: later they immediately regret the deed. But under the law, 613 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: even if they immediately regret the deed one minute later, 614 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. It does not change the intent at 615 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: the time of the incident. That's right, And this morning 616 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 1: is claiming voluntary drunkenness and that's not going to be 617 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 1: defends to her for any of several charges. Isn't it true, 618 00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 1: Jennifer Sikowski that there is some evidence he was hit 619 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 1: with a blunt object before he was run over. I mean, 620 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about how a tail light and an 621 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: SUV would have hit him in the head unless he 622 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 1: was on his knees right exactly. And to suffer that 623 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:18,359 Speaker 1: extensive of injuries, the multiple skull fractures, but the two 624 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,800 Speaker 1: in flustrations to the back of his head, two black eyes, 625 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:27,839 Speaker 1: that just doesn't sit with me, right, and it does 626 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: sound an indicative of being hit with something fire. All 627 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: I know is this family, friends and police officers from 628 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 1: across the state all converged at Saint Francis Church there 629 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 1: in Braintree to remember slain Boston officer John O'Keefe. We 630 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: want justice. Nancy Grace Crumbs story signing off good