Speaker 1: Hello everybody, well, welcome back to the show. Welcome back
Speaker 1: to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever you are
Speaker 1: in the world, it is so great to have you
Speaker 1: here back for another episode as we of course break
Speaker 1: down the psychology of our twenties. It is great to
Speaker 1: have you here for a very special topic in my mind.
Speaker 1: Two years ago, I did an episode on whether x's
Speaker 1: could be friends, and during that episode I brought on
Speaker 1: my ex boyfriend. If you have been around for a while,
Speaker 1: you probably remember this episode. And this is the first
Speaker 1: ever time that I have gone back to an episode
Speaker 1: from the archives, back to one that I recorded, you know,
Speaker 1: almost two years ago, and decided to redo it. Decided
Speaker 1: to basically say, you know what, I think that I
Speaker 1: was wrong. I don't think that what I said in
Speaker 1: that episode. The points that I made are entirely true,
Speaker 1: mature are actually what I believe in anymore. And so
Speaker 1: today I want to redo that episode, this time without
Speaker 1: my ex boyfriend, because we are no longer friends, and
Speaker 1: we haven't been friends actually since that episode came out.
Speaker 1: I haven't spoken to him for since that episode came out,
Speaker 1: and you know, it just felt kind of strange to
Speaker 1: have this episode on the podcast, making these huge claims
Speaker 1: that it's mature to stay friends with your X, that
Speaker 1: it's possible, like look at us, We've done it, when
Speaker 1: actually the reality of what happened after that was entirely
Speaker 1: to the contrary and entirely not true. That episode actually
Speaker 1: essentially meant that our friendship or whatever it was ended,
Speaker 1: And I'm not going to go into specific details, but
Speaker 1: it was definitely a lesson for me around the truth
Speaker 1: that people are telling you can be a different truth
Speaker 1: for other people, Like they could be telling you one
Speaker 1: thing and telling other people something different. And it actually
Speaker 1: ended up causing me a lot of pain, like the
Speaker 1: aftermath of that episode, and yeah, not really realizing that
Speaker 1: he hadn't been entirely honest with me. There were things
Speaker 1: that he hadn't told me, And to this day, it
Speaker 1: still kind of upsets me that I like kind of
Speaker 1: gave that relationship a platform when it was definitely not
Speaker 1: a perfect relationship. We definitely did not have a perfect friendship.
Speaker 1: You know, I thought we were friends. I think he
Speaker 1: thought something differently, and so it kind of came around
Speaker 1: the time too, you know, not to go into any
Speaker 1: specific reasons, but after thinking about it for a while.
Speaker 1: I was like, you know what, I think it's time
Speaker 1: that we we do this again. And it was the
Speaker 1: aftermath of that episode. The irony is, you know, definitely
Speaker 1: obvious to me here. That really proved to me that
Speaker 1: I actually don't think X's can be friends. I think
Speaker 1: that the relationship that you have with your ex ended
Speaker 1: for a reason, and that reason is probably just as
Speaker 1: good of a reason as to why you wouldn't want
Speaker 1: to be friends with that person anyways. Of course, you know,
Speaker 1: there are definitely exceptions to what I'm saying, but if
Speaker 1: you've ever seen the film, he's just not that into you.
Speaker 1: There is a line in that movie, a very famous
Speaker 1: line that typically, for most of us, we are the exception.
Speaker 1: We are not the rule, and maybe that's why we
Speaker 1: should be. And when it comes to being friends with
Speaker 1: your ex I think the rule is genuinely and generally
Speaker 1: that's not a good idea. And perhaps this is a
Speaker 1: hard pill for you to swallow, especially if you are
Speaker 1: just fresh out of a relationship. You're trying to find
Speaker 1: a way to kind of maintain a friendship because you
Speaker 1: don't want to lose them, You're not ready to move on.
Speaker 1: I would really encourage you to keep listening, even if
Speaker 1: what we talk about in today's episode isn't necessarily what
Speaker 1: you want to hear. You know, in my mind, I
Speaker 1: think the friendships that we try and maintain with our exes,
Speaker 1: they all reach a breaking point sooner or later, and
Speaker 1: you can believe that you are friends, you can try
Speaker 1: and be friends, you can convince yourself that you are,
Speaker 1: but only up to a point, and then you just
Speaker 1: kind of have to face the facts. I think, like
Speaker 1: any friendship, there are ups and downs, but a friendship
Speaker 1: with your ex, especially someone that you once loved, that
Speaker 1: you were once romantically attracted to sexually attracted to, there
Speaker 1: are definitely more downs than ups when it comes to
Speaker 1: those kinds of friendships, and it ends up impacting every
Speaker 1: other aspect of our lives, like who we go on
Speaker 1: to date, how we see ourselves, jealousy, resentments so much
Speaker 1: more so, today we are going to break down exactly
Speaker 1: why it is that my mind has been changed, what
Speaker 1: some of the research has to say about the nature
Speaker 1: of a friendship between ex'es, and why it's probably not
Speaker 1: a good idea based on principles of traction and social psychology,
Speaker 1: but also the you're often deeply emotional reasons that we
Speaker 1: try and convince ourselves that we can be the exception
Speaker 1: and ultimately the consequences of that. I also do want
Speaker 1: to talk about the instances where you might not have
Speaker 1: a choice. You're in the same friendship group, you co parent,
Speaker 1: you work together, you run a business, you share assets,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, there are situations where it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's not up to us. How exactly can we work
Speaker 1: through those unique circumstances the best that we can. You know,
Speaker 1: since that first episode came out, so many of you
Speaker 1: have reached out to me and wanted to follow up,
Speaker 1: and they you know, you've wanted to know whether my
Speaker 1: opinion has changed. It most certainly has, and I've definitely
Speaker 1: also become more informed, both through experience and also just
Speaker 1: a deeper look at what's factual and what's evidence based.
Speaker 1: So hopefully I can bestow some of that wisdom onto
Speaker 1: you without further ado, Let's get into the nitty gritty
Speaker 1: of maintaining a friendship with your ex and why that's
Speaker 1: probably not always going to be a good idea. I
Speaker 1: feel as if a lot of us end a relationship
Speaker 1: with this hope that we can stay friends. You know,
Speaker 1: it's almost a bit of a cliche that you hear
Speaker 1: a lot. You know, yeah, we broke up, but we're
Speaker 1: gonna stay friends. We're going to try and stay friends.
Speaker 1: Who amongst that hasn't said that before, and I'm obviously included,
Speaker 1: very much included in that boat. We have this real
Speaker 1: sense that we can kind of keep things friendly and
Speaker 1: still you know, remain in each other's lives. Despite all
Speaker 1: of those who have tried before us, we can be
Speaker 1: the exception. And I think primarily the reason we think
Speaker 1: that is because the idea of going from a relationship
Speaker 1: to a friendship is a lot easier to digest than
Speaker 1: going from a relationship to thing that leap into the
Speaker 1: abyss just kind of feels way too mentally painful for
Speaker 1: us to grasp onto in the midst of a lot
Speaker 1: of other feelings. The notion, you know, that this person
Speaker 1: could suddenly not be in our lives anymore when they
Speaker 1: were probably one of the most important people to us
Speaker 1: only a few hours, a few days, a few weeks ago.
Speaker 1: That is really really horrifying. It's a big adjustment. Of course,
Speaker 1: you know, if an X cheated, if something horrific happened.
Speaker 1: If there was like an all out explosion, it's a
Speaker 1: lot easier to make that call and to just be like,
Speaker 1: I never want to see that person again, because their
Speaker 1: true colors, you know, are very very real. In that moment,
Speaker 1: there is no forgiveness, there is no moving on. But
Speaker 1: in those relationships when nothing drastic has happened, you know,
Speaker 1: it's more of a slow realization. That's where you get
Speaker 1: into trouble. The kind of breakups that I think best
Speaker 1: lend us to believing that we can stay friends with
Speaker 1: our ex's of firstly those in which we were friends
Speaker 1: to begin with. You know, if you were if you
Speaker 1: initially had that foundation of platonic intimacy, I think moving
Speaker 1: into a romantic space and then having to exit it
Speaker 1: and maybe losing that friendship as well, it's just such
Speaker 1: a loss. However, I do think that once you have
Speaker 1: a romantic relationship with someone, the very core, the very
Speaker 1: nature of that relationship has been changed. It's a different
Speaker 1: dynamic now. It's never going to be the same. And
Speaker 1: that's something that we all kind of have to, you know,
Speaker 1: accept or expect when we first start dating a friend.
Speaker 1: Once you move into that territory, I think it's very
Speaker 1: hard to exit it in a way that is not
Speaker 1: painful and in which no one's going to be hurt.
Speaker 1: Another example I think of the kinds of relationships where
Speaker 1: we really think we can stay friends with someone is
Speaker 1: when the relationship is just I often think that, you know,
Speaker 1: when it's just kind of like, oh, I don't really
Speaker 1: have feelings for you anymore. Yeah, I mean neither. You're
Speaker 1: kind of like, okay, well maybe we're better off as friends.
Speaker 1: But suddenly, and I see this a lot in the aftermath,
Speaker 1: this person is like more exciting to you. You know,
Speaker 1: while you're in a relationship with them, you didn't have
Speaker 1: feelings for them, things were fading, but then suddenly they're
Speaker 1: off limits. Suddenly it's exciting. It's known in psychology as
Speaker 1: reactance theory. This sense that when we feel like we're
Speaker 1: about to lose something, or we're not going to have
Speaker 1: the same access to something, or our freedom around something
Speaker 1: is about to be limited. I you can no longer
Speaker 1: call them, text them, cuddle them, be with them. When
Speaker 1: we finally start to realize that that they're off limits,
Speaker 1: this often causes us to almost try harder to bring
Speaker 1: the relationship back or to restore what we had, because
Speaker 1: there is this very natural and psychological aversion to loss.
Speaker 1: I have a friend who's going through this at the moment.
Speaker 1: You know, she was with her ex for a couple
Speaker 1: of years, and she basically confessed that she had really
Speaker 1: just lost feelings for him. She didn't see him in
Speaker 1: a romantic way anymore. And then they broke up and
Speaker 1: suddenly she was like, well, this whole wave of feelings
Speaker 1: suddenly hit me again. And now they're kind of sleeping
Speaker 1: with each other, they're doing all these things that they
Speaker 1: used to do in the early days of their relationship.
Speaker 1: And I kind of said to her very lovingly, of course,
Speaker 1: I was like, you can either trust the version of
Speaker 1: yourself three months ago, who knew that this wasn't what
Speaker 1: you wanted and who knew the relationship wasn't right. You
Speaker 1: can also trust the version of you in six months
Speaker 1: from now, who's likely going to be thinking the same thing.
Speaker 1: Or you can try it out. You can try and
Speaker 1: get back together. You can try and see if this
Speaker 1: pseudo friendship slash kind of relationship is going to and
Speaker 1: you can learn whatever lesson you need to learn from that.
Speaker 1: But I don't think that that's going to be the
Speaker 1: outcome that you want. And maybe I sound like a cynic,
Speaker 1: but I think when we have only been broken up
Speaker 1: with someone for a little while, trying to be friends
Speaker 1: with them, the only recent memory of them that we
Speaker 1: have is in a romantic sense. So we're going to
Speaker 1: fall back into that pattern of recreating and rehearsing all
Speaker 1: the romantic actions and feelings that we used to have
Speaker 1: for each other, because that is what you can access
Speaker 1: the easiest, that is the most present and recent thing
Speaker 1: in your memory. I think the final situation where we
Speaker 1: try and be friends with an X, and this was
Speaker 1: my situation, is where you both kind of ended the
Speaker 1: relationship being like, we just need to work in ourselves.
Speaker 1: That's the reason that we can't be together. You know,
Speaker 1: nothing was explicitly wrong about the relationship itself. It's just
Speaker 1: that neither of you are really your best people in
Speaker 1: those circumstances, so you choose to stay friends. That is
Speaker 1: basically what happened to me with the exit I brought
Speaker 1: on the podcast, and slowly over time I realized that
Speaker 1: this idea that you know, we just needed to work
Speaker 1: on ourselves. It's not that we weren't right for each other.
Speaker 1: It's just that we were both in different spaces. That
Speaker 1: wasn't actually the reason that we broke up. That was
Speaker 1: just the reason that was easiest to tell myself at least,
Speaker 1: And what I ended up realizing was, you know, if
Speaker 1: I couldn't be my best self in a relationship with
Speaker 1: this person, if it was the case that I didn't
Speaker 1: feel supported, they didn't make me better, they didn't make
Speaker 1: me brighter, such that I felt I needed to leave
Speaker 1: the relationship in order to achieve those things. What was
Speaker 1: a friendship with him going to provide me that was different? Why?
Speaker 1: You know, why did I need him to still be
Speaker 1: in my life? If when he was incredibly present in
Speaker 1: my life, my life actually wasn't that great. It's a
Speaker 1: really interesting thing to realize. And inevitably, there was this
Speaker 1: influence that he definitely had over my life that extended
Speaker 1: into our friendship that ended up creating so much chaos
Speaker 1: and so much sadness and so much just like anger
Speaker 1: for so many people that I think really revealed to
Speaker 1: me that the reason I was telling myself was not
Speaker 1: the true reason. Of course, when you were bonded with someone,
Speaker 1: when you share core memories with them, it's very hard
Speaker 1: as well to recover from losing that important connection overnight.
Speaker 1: As humans, connection is the thing that just means the
Speaker 1: most to us in some ways, we have a natural
Speaker 1: tendency to not want to lose that. So it's going
Speaker 1: to be painful, it's going to be hard. But aiming
Speaker 1: for a friendship, in my mind, is like putting a
Speaker 1: band aid on a bullet hole. Like not to use
Speaker 1: an outdated metaphor, but it's a bullet hole that you
Speaker 1: are actually going to have to look at it some stage.
Speaker 1: The band aid is not healing it, it's just hiding it.
Speaker 1: Something I have really taken from my past relationships is
Speaker 1: that when you pursue a friendship, you are actually just
Speaker 1: delaying your heartbreak by demoting the relationship rather than ending it.
Speaker 1: And I just want to say that one more time.
Speaker 1: You are delaying your heartbreak by demoting the relationship rather
Speaker 1: than ending it when you know you should. You're basically
Speaker 1: putting off the inevitability that this relationship was not right
Speaker 1: for a reason, and that there is a reason you
Speaker 1: shouldn't be in each other's lives. You can either experience
Speaker 1: that right now and then in six months time healed
Speaker 1: feel better. About it, or you can spend the next
Speaker 1: six months trying to be friends with that person and
Speaker 1: just delay that grieving process, that healing process. The feelings
Speaker 1: and the reactions that are associated with heartbreak, they aren't
Speaker 1: going to change. It just depends on when you experience them,
Speaker 1: if you experienced them. So that's my opinion. You can't
Speaker 1: be friends with your ex. It's not possible. It's a
Speaker 1: bad idea. What is my evidence for that? Well, we
Speaker 1: are going to talk about all of that and so
Speaker 1: much more after this shortbreak. For such a strong opinion,
Speaker 1: I think you guys would know that I have some
Speaker 1: evidence for holding this belief. You know, I'm not one
Speaker 1: to just say something and be like, yep, and that's
Speaker 1: true because I believe it and so it must be.
Speaker 1: But there is a lot of evidence. There is a
Speaker 1: lot of psychology. There have been a lot of recent
Speaker 1: research papers that have pointed to, you know, the difficulty,
Speaker 1: the innate difficulty of transitioning a romantic relationship into a
Speaker 1: platonic friendship. The first reason why this is so hard
Speaker 1: is that often some form of romantic attachment still remains,
Speaker 1: and this means that you are going to find it
Speaker 1: really hard to move on and pursue not only a
Speaker 1: new relationship, so fully embrace your single life whilst the
Speaker 1: kind of lingering presence of your ex as a friend remains. So.
Speaker 1: There was a twenty seventeen study conducted by researchers from
Speaker 1: the Department of Psychology at the University of Kansas. By
Speaker 1: the way, the University of Kansas has an amazing psychology department.
Speaker 1: I've been realizing this from all the really cool research
Speaker 1: they are putting out. I don't know why I felt
Speaker 1: the need to say that, but just I'm loving what
Speaker 1: they're doing at the moment. They put out this research paper,
Speaker 1: and in this paper they found that when lingering romantic
Speaker 1: or sexual desires to exist, is really challenging to push
Speaker 1: those feelings aside in favor of a friendship, and most
Speaker 1: people actually find themselves returning to those feelings time and
Speaker 1: time again, even if they believe that it's no longer
Speaker 1: the case for them, even if they're like, no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm totally over it, it's hard to unlan that association.
Speaker 1: As a result of that, participants really report ordered that
Speaker 1: it had become very difficult for them to imagine themselves
Speaker 1: with someone else. They they found it difficult to connect
Speaker 1: with new people when they were actively dating, and it
Speaker 1: also resulted in some pretty obsessive behaviors. So even though
Speaker 1: people were like, yeah, yeah, I'm just friends with my ex,
Speaker 1: do you know they're nothing more than just a friend,
Speaker 1: they would check on them on social media more than
Speaker 1: they would do with their other regular friends. They would
Speaker 1: message them when they knew they shouldn't. They weren't able
Speaker 1: to stop thinking about them. When you have this friendship
Speaker 1: with an ex, I think it limits your ability to
Speaker 1: fully move on, and with that, it limits your ability
Speaker 1: to eventually find someone better, find a more successful relationship,
Speaker 1: find a relationship that is right for you. Firstly because
Speaker 1: our mind is constantly in a state of comparing our
Speaker 1: current partner with our previous partner, but also because that
Speaker 1: friendship and the exact specifics of it can create tension
Speaker 1: in a new relationship. You know, think about think about
Speaker 1: it this way. You go on a first date with
Speaker 1: someone and you're really getting along and they're just amazing,
Speaker 1: and you go on a few more dates and it's
Speaker 1: just working. On like the fourth or fifth day, they say, oh,
Speaker 1: come and meet my friends, and you meet their friends.
Speaker 1: You like, pull up to their place, and he goes, oh,
Speaker 1: this is my friend Jessica. Actually we dated for three years,
Speaker 1: but you know we're just friends now. Would that make
Speaker 1: you insecure? Would that make you question things? I think
Speaker 1: that it would. You might say that it wouldn't, and
Speaker 1: you know what, you're a much better person than me.
Speaker 1: It would bother me. And when you maintain a relationship
Speaker 1: with your ex, you're making it so that you are
Speaker 1: the partner in that situation, making it very difficult for
Speaker 1: anybody new to not feel like there is some competition
Speaker 1: that they have to crack you, that there is mistrust,
Speaker 1: and there is that addition of retroactive jealousy, right, feeling
Speaker 1: jealous over previous relationships, and kind of like a resentment
Speaker 1: and a questioning like are they lingering feelings? Do I
Speaker 1: have something to worry about? And that kind of doubt
Speaker 1: is not something that is particularly helpful in the early
Speaker 1: days of a new relationship. When you maintain a relationship
Speaker 1: with your ex, what you were essentially doing is putting
Speaker 1: any new person who wants to walk in to your life.
Speaker 1: You're putting them through that experiment, You're putting them through
Speaker 1: those line of questionings, and it can actually really sabotage
Speaker 1: your chances of future love. So another study, because they
Speaker 1: are actually a surprisingly wonderful amount of studies on relationships
Speaker 1: between X and that transition into friendship. This study was
Speaker 1: conducted a bit earlier in twenty twelve, and it was
Speaker 1: published in the Journal of Social Psychology and I Think
Speaker 1: Personality Science. It examined how lingering attachment to ex partners
Speaker 1: goes on to affect your current really relationships. So they
Speaker 1: conducted this longitudinal study and it followed a group of
Speaker 1: individuals who had recently gone through a breakup over a
Speaker 1: six month period as they entered a new relationship, and
Speaker 1: they asked them at two month intervals to report how
Speaker 1: they felt about their current relationship with this new person,
Speaker 1: how was it going, were they happy? Was all well?
Speaker 1: And then they also had to report whether they still
Speaker 1: felt any lingering emotional attachment to their ex partner. Unsurprisingly,
Speaker 1: the more attached someone felt to an ex the more
Speaker 1: their current relationship suffered. There was even an indication for
Speaker 1: some that maybe the new partner was just a substitute
Speaker 1: for their old partner and that just never feels nice.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be that person for someone, so
Speaker 1: I don't want to make someone that person for me,
Speaker 1: And I think this research in particular really indicates why
Speaker 1: you need space, why you need boundaries. Yes, you might
Speaker 1: have unfinished business relating to children, work, friendship, but that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that you guys need to be friends, and
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that they have to have a continuing
Speaker 1: active role in your life. Let's also be you know,
Speaker 1: just completely honest with ourselves here for a second. Is
Speaker 1: this really going to be a good friendship? Your friendship
Speaker 1: with your ex? Is that going to be the same
Speaker 1: kind of friendship you have with your girlfriends or your
Speaker 1: close mates. They may have been a great partner, you know,
Speaker 1: it might have just not worked out. But a despite
Speaker 1: you thinking that you guys could be friends, you never
Speaker 1: know what someone else is thinking. So even if you
Speaker 1: have mentally moved into the entirely platonic realm, you cannot
Speaker 1: always tell if they have. That's something that I learned.
Speaker 1: But b they aren't really your friend. Are they the
Speaker 1: way that you would interact with your real friends. I
Speaker 1: think that there is a natural difference there, and the
Speaker 1: best way to realize that is using this really simple
Speaker 1: thought exercise. Imagine that they get a new boyfriend, and
Speaker 1: your girlfriend a new partner. Would your friendship still be
Speaker 1: the exact same that it is right now? Could you
Speaker 1: still ask them for the same things. Could you go
Speaker 1: to them for the same level of support? You know,
Speaker 1: would it change if they got a new partner. I
Speaker 1: think it definitely would. It most certainly would, because you've
Speaker 1: fulfilled a specific role for them, the role of a
Speaker 1: romantic partner, and for most of us, that is a
Speaker 1: limited position that can only be filled by one person.
Speaker 1: That's not the same as a friendship, is it. You know,
Speaker 1: you can have amazing friends who will, hopefully you will
Speaker 1: always be able to trust, who who love you, who
Speaker 1: care about you, and that friendship those organic, normal, natural friendships.
Speaker 1: They are not conditional on them finding someone better. You
Speaker 1: would not be replaced, Your friendship wouldn't be demoted, It
Speaker 1: wouldn't be neglected if your person was suddenly to start
Speaker 1: dating someone new. Maybe in the natural sense, but it's
Speaker 1: not like you or the reason it's not like your
Speaker 1: previous relationship was the reason that suddenly you can't be
Speaker 1: as close as you were. I just think that friendships
Speaker 1: should leave us feeling seen, They should leave us feeling
Speaker 1: safe and included and loved and held and just like happy.
Speaker 1: And I don't think I have ever been friends with
Speaker 1: an ex who has made me feel that way. It's
Speaker 1: always been that the friendship has made me feel desperate
Speaker 1: and anxious. Yes, it was a bit exciting, but there
Speaker 1: was also this undertone consistently of longing, of not being
Speaker 1: able to forget the past, and eventually that was what
Speaker 1: hurt us. So a group of researchers actually went about
Speaker 1: trying to determine whether a friendship with an ex would
Speaker 1: actually be a good idea, whether it actually is a
Speaker 1: good friendship, based on some very factual, evidence based indicators,
Speaker 1: and they basically measured, you know, how do people feel
Speaker 1: after hanging out with their ex? Does the number of
Speaker 1: positive interactions outweigh the number of negative interactions when people
Speaker 1: come to them afterwards In their study, are they primarily
Speaker 1: lingering on things that they weren't happy with about the
Speaker 1: interaction or do they just feel ultimately really positive. And
Speaker 1: the way they studied with this was that they surveyed
Speaker 1: both male and females who reported having a friend who
Speaker 1: was once a romantic partner and a friend who was
Speaker 1: just purely platonic, and both types of friendships were kind
Speaker 1: of compared, and they asked them after interactions with each person,
Speaker 1: how do you feel, you know, do you feel good
Speaker 1: after this? Do you feel that there is like that
Speaker 1: this relationship is quite a quality relationship. Are you happy?
Speaker 1: And the results indicate a significant difference. People felt really
Speaker 1: really happy in their friendships with their platonic friends. They
Speaker 1: would leave those interactions and be like, gosh, that was fun.
Speaker 1: I had a great time. I feel really bright and
Speaker 1: light and easy and breezy. But when they exited an
Speaker 1: interaction with their ex who was their friend, they actually
Speaker 1: typically reported more negative experiences. They were more likely to
Speaker 1: say negative things about this person, and their mood was
Speaker 1: more likely to decline. So it's not like this friendship
Speaker 1: is even actually giving us anything other than that, it's
Speaker 1: just this lingering attachment to someone we once cared about.
Speaker 1: There is, of course, and this is the final thing
Speaker 1: we really do need to to speak to. There is
Speaker 1: the addition of sexual attraction, which we haven't spoken about yet.
Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of it is in the back
Speaker 1: of our It's in the back of our minds for sure.
Speaker 1: The real question is, you know, how long does it
Speaker 1: actually take for that sexual desire for that sexual attraction
Speaker 1: towards someone to disappear, And a bigger question is does
Speaker 1: it ever actually disappear? You know, this level of mutual
Speaker 1: desire and attraction definitely lingers. That is why so many
Speaker 1: of us end up, you know, perhaps sleeping with our
Speaker 1: X again out of you know, I don't know sexualness,
Speaker 1: but also a need for comfort, and that is not
Speaker 1: platonic in my mind, you know, speaking from experience, I
Speaker 1: do think that like sexual desire and your level of
Speaker 1: attraction towards something towards someone, Sorry, it does fade over time.
Speaker 1: Like I look at my exes now and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't want any piece of that. I could never
Speaker 1: I feel nothing towards you. I'm not attracted to you
Speaker 1: in the slightest. But if you're freshly out of the relationship,
Speaker 1: you haven't crossed into that threshold yet. Maybe once you do,
Speaker 1: you can be friends where no sexual desire lingers. But
Speaker 1: even then, like, think about all of the above reasons,
Speaker 1: think about all of that evidence that says this is
Speaker 1: not a good idea. I want to offer just one
Speaker 1: more reason here as well, And this reason is the
Speaker 1: most profound to me as to why we cannot be
Speaker 1: friends with our ex, and it's that it jeopardizes the
Speaker 1: healing process, and that is the most important thing that
Speaker 1: we need to prioritize in the wake if a heartbreak
Speaker 1: or a breakup, being friends with your ex just means
Speaker 1: it takes longer to grieve and longer to recover. It's
Speaker 1: gonna make it hard for you to move on, it's
Speaker 1: not gonna make you feel great about yourself, and inevitably
Speaker 1: it influences our ability to find closure. Closure is just
Speaker 1: gonna be such a buzzword in this episode. It's basically
Speaker 1: our mind's ability to put an end to an ongoing
Speaker 1: narrative or story that is occurring in our brain. It
Speaker 1: is our brain's ability to find a conclusion that makes
Speaker 1: sense to us and makes sense based on our values
Speaker 1: and our sense of self. Essentially, it means that we
Speaker 1: can look at a relationship and say, you know, this
Speaker 1: didn't work out for these reasons, and actually that was
Speaker 1: a good thing because of these reasons. So let's close
Speaker 1: this chapter. We'll get onto writing our next chapter. There
Speaker 1: is a sense of peace. A lot of people report
Speaker 1: like a sense of silence, a sense of I was
Speaker 1: about to say closure, but that's the exact way we're
Speaker 1: trying or just trying to just I think you know
Speaker 1: it when you feel it. Well, when an ex becomes
Speaker 1: a friend, it means that there is no closing that chapter.
Speaker 1: They're going to keep showing up in all these future chapters.
Speaker 1: The story never finishes when we go no contact with
Speaker 1: an X, when we limit connection, we do still naturally
Speaker 1: have all of these questions that are going to come
Speaker 1: up at the end of the relationship. Why didn't this work?
Speaker 1: Did they ever love me? Is there a future? Like?
Speaker 1: What did I do wrong? What did they do wrong?
Speaker 1: Naturally we have questions. But the thing is is that
Speaker 1: we have to find answers to those questions for ourselves
Speaker 1: in the best way we know how, Like we just
Speaker 1: have to be able to provide ourselves with the closure,
Speaker 1: knowing that there is nothing that anyone else can say
Speaker 1: that's going to bring peace unless it makes sense to you.
Speaker 1: So that's really important because that need for closure is
Speaker 1: a really powerful driver of decisions. It's a really powerful
Speaker 1: driver of behaviors because in our search for closure, what
Speaker 1: we're really looking for is an end to confusion and ambiguity.
Speaker 1: And in that search for an end to our ambiguity.
Speaker 1: In a search for clarity, our brain is going to
Speaker 1: keep returning to a scenario over and over again until
Speaker 1: it receives that. When we go into a contact, our
Speaker 1: need for closure drives us inwards. When we are friends
Speaker 1: with our ex our need for closure will drive us
Speaker 1: to them because they are available. The questions never stop,
Speaker 1: and neither does our search for answers. But you know
Speaker 1: there they are. They're right there. You can go and
Speaker 1: ask them those questions. You can go to that person
Speaker 1: and feel like you're going to get a release when
Speaker 1: really there's nothing they can say to you. That is
Speaker 1: the core part about closure. It is an entirely personally
Speaker 1: motivated and personally driven experience, but we get confused thinking
Speaker 1: that someone else can give it to us. And I
Speaker 1: remember having this exact experience with someone I dated when
Speaker 1: I was like nineteen or twenty, and you know, it
Speaker 1: didn't work, but we tried to stay friends, and it
Speaker 1: just meant that every single week, you know, I had
Speaker 1: more questions, I felt differently, I had all these things
Speaker 1: come up. But because we were still quote unquote friends,
Speaker 1: I could go to him with these questions. I could
Speaker 1: be like, hey, can we chat? Can we talk. I
Speaker 1: need closure, and actually the excuse of closure was really
Speaker 1: an excuse to stay friends. Was not to stay friends,
Speaker 1: but it was an excuse to remain in contact with
Speaker 1: him and to not feel like I had lost him,
Speaker 1: because that was really Really, it's a sad thing to acknowledge.
Speaker 1: It was only when I cut off contact for my
Speaker 1: own good that I got my closure because I realized
Speaker 1: it would never come from him. And that's what I
Speaker 1: really want for you. I want the peace, I want
Speaker 1: the certainty, I want the liberation. I want you to
Speaker 1: know you're going to be okay without them, and that's
Speaker 1: when you really start to heal. Now, I've been teasing
Speaker 1: this for a while. There are some friendships where this
Speaker 1: is not possible. Unfortunately, you still have to be in
Speaker 1: their vicinity. So what do we do in those situations?
Speaker 1: Are we going to talk about all of that and
Speaker 1: much much more after this short break? When we have
Speaker 1: an ex with whom we maybe share a lot of
Speaker 1: mutual friends, we are bound to see each other every
Speaker 1: day at work, we have children, all of those things,
Speaker 1: what do we do with the relationship then, when it
Speaker 1: is very hard to step away, completely almost impossible, what
Speaker 1: do we do when we feel forced to stay friends
Speaker 1: with them. It's a really interesting article from the author
Speaker 1: Marissa Franco. She wrote this book called Platonic, How the
Speaker 1: Science of Attachment can help you make and keep friends,
Speaker 1: and she shares three questions that she asks her clients
Speaker 1: when they say, Hey, I think I want to be
Speaker 1: friends with my ex. And these questions are basically a
Speaker 1: way to make you understand when it's necessary and why
Speaker 1: that's okay, and how to go on with a friendship
Speaker 1: even when it's painful, but also when you don't have
Speaker 1: the same reasons that some of us do. So the
Speaker 1: questions that she asked the number one, why do you
Speaker 1: want to stay in touch with your ex? If it's
Speaker 1: for practical reasons, you know you can move on to
Speaker 1: the next question. If you answered, you know, I need
Speaker 1: to stay in touch with them because I'm going to
Speaker 1: see them every single day through work. All my friends
Speaker 1: are his friends or her friends. Like, there's just no
Speaker 1: way of me exiting this relationship completely without losing so
Speaker 1: much more. Then, I think that a friendship is kind
Speaker 1: of necessary. But I want you to notice that wording
Speaker 1: that she says here, why do you want to stay
Speaker 1: in touch with your ex. Stay in touch doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: mean like a friendship of the same varieties you have
Speaker 1: with your best girlfriend or your childhood pow. Maybe just
Speaker 1: staying in touch is all that's required if there is
Speaker 1: some practical reason for being each other's lives now, if
Speaker 1: it's simply because you you know, why do you want
Speaker 1: to stay in touch? I just want to know what's
Speaker 1: going on. I want to know if they're dating. I
Speaker 1: want to keep tabs. Not a good enough reason. You
Speaker 1: don't pass go. You can't be friends with your ex.
Speaker 1: The second question that she asks is are you in
Speaker 1: a healthy place to stay in touch with your ex?
Speaker 1: I do think, regardless of the practical requirements, some level
Speaker 1: of healing does need to occur before you can regain contact,
Speaker 1: regardless of what is pulling you back together. You know
Speaker 1: there is some level of healing that needs to happen
Speaker 1: before things go back to the way they were. Obviously,
Speaker 1: it's going to get ugly if you don't do this,
Speaker 1: because you're not going to have the delineation between the
Speaker 1: relationship romantic relationship you previously shared and this new chapter
Speaker 1: of friendship. So you'll fight the way that you did
Speaker 1: when you were together. You'll have the same tension, the
Speaker 1: same arguments, the same resentment, and so you don't have
Speaker 1: any chance at friendship those situations, you need space before
Speaker 1: you re enter the relationship. I always recommend to people
Speaker 1: who share a friendship group in particular, because I get
Speaker 1: a lot of questions about that. For the first month
Speaker 1: or so, I really want you to avoid the parties.
Speaker 1: I only want you to see your friends one on one.
Speaker 1: I don't want you to see them, and I know
Speaker 1: it feels like a sacrifice on your behalf, but one
Speaker 1: month versus losing all those friendships entirely is well worth it.
Speaker 1: Give yourself some space and some time before you jump
Speaker 1: back in, because then you have distance, You have time
Speaker 1: to process, to reassess, to reflect before things just return
Speaker 1: to normal. You can work through the resentment, You can
Speaker 1: figure out what your next chapter represents to you. You
Speaker 1: can reason with why the relationship needed to end without
Speaker 1: being constantly confronted by visions and images of this person.
Speaker 1: So once you get to a place where you feel
Speaker 1: more stable and you've acknowledged and come to terms the
Speaker 1: romantic chapter is closed, then you can stay in touch.
Speaker 1: The final question that doctor Franco asked though, is what
Speaker 1: do you want your platonic relationship with your ex to
Speaker 1: look like? And this is the most important question of
Speaker 1: them all, because it cannot look the way that it
Speaker 1: once did. You are going to need some concrete, strong boundaries.
Speaker 1: If this is the path that you need to take.
Speaker 1: This is what those boundaries could look like. This is
Speaker 1: the rules that you could have with you on your
Speaker 1: ex so that you are on friendly terms but not friends.
Speaker 1: So some of the rules are you will you know
Speaker 1: we will sorry not you. We as a couple who
Speaker 1: previously dated, we are not going to have discussions about
Speaker 1: our past relationship. We are not going to rehash previous experiences.
Speaker 1: That is not something that we discuss anymore. We are
Speaker 1: going to limit physical affection. No cuddling, no sleeping over,
Speaker 1: no sleeping with each other. That is a hard rule.
Speaker 1: We will only see each other when someone else is present. Now,
Speaker 1: this is a great one. If you are required to
Speaker 1: be friends with your ex because of children, friendships work,
Speaker 1: it means that you know you don't have any of
Speaker 1: that one on one time that's going to feel like
Speaker 1: the quality time you had in a relationship. There is
Speaker 1: this important barrier between you two. There is an important reason,
Speaker 1: and that reason being other people that you maintain contact.
Speaker 1: You know, you still see each other in the group,
Speaker 1: you still see each other around your kids. That is
Speaker 1: it nonber four. You can agree to unfollow each other
Speaker 1: on social media. You can still be friendly, but you
Speaker 1: don't need to have the same access to know what
Speaker 1: they're doing. I also think that that stops lingering feelings
Speaker 1: of like huh are they moving on without me? Have
Speaker 1: they moved on before me? Like what are they doing?
Speaker 1: And feeling like you know their behavior is an insult
Speaker 1: to you. It stops that from happening. Finally, this rule
Speaker 1: is really really important. They cannot be your goal two
Speaker 1: persons for an emotional crisis. Yes that's what they once were.
Speaker 1: It can feel very natural to be like, oh, they
Speaker 1: just know so much about me. It's so hard to
Speaker 1: explain this to someone else. I really want you to
Speaker 1: do it. Anyways, they can no longer be the person
Speaker 1: you are emotionally dependent on. And these are really really
Speaker 1: all good examples of how to maintain a friendship when
Speaker 1: practicality requires you to without stepping into a more serious terrain.
Speaker 1: You should also really have a stopping point for when
Speaker 1: the friendship can't continue. What is the line that neither
Speaker 1: of you can cross that if you did, the friendship
Speaker 1: would most certainly be over. It would be done. Is
Speaker 1: it sex? Is it fighting and arguing over things that
Speaker 1: happened in the past. Is it when one of you
Speaker 1: gets a new partner? Is that when you have to
Speaker 1: agree to ceaseol contact? You know you have to have
Speaker 1: that line otherwise your behavior can be as erratic as
Speaker 1: you'd like, and there's nothing to stop me going back.
Speaker 1: There's nothing to stop you guys from maintaining this weird
Speaker 1: emotional connection. Are they friends? Are they dating? Are they
Speaker 1: something in between? That's not what we want. The one
Speaker 1: thing we don't want is ambiguity. We want clarity. Are
Speaker 1: you in a relationship or you are friends? And that
Speaker 1: friendship has boundaries and it has rules. I think this
Speaker 1: is a really good way to go about it. You know,
Speaker 1: if you're still really struggling in those circumstances and you're
Speaker 1: finding it hard to move on, finding it hard to
Speaker 1: get through get through things, and finding it hard to
Speaker 1: find closure because they are still around, I think you
Speaker 1: should listen to this episode that I did called How
Speaker 1: to Move On from Someone you can't stop thinking about?
Speaker 1: It's really really valuable in these situations to get you
Speaker 1: to that next chapter in your healing journey. Maybe you're
Speaker 1: at this point of stagnation, you've hit a roadblock, a barricade,
Speaker 1: a blockade. This episode, that episode how to get Over
Speaker 1: someone you can't stop thinking about, is great for pushing
Speaker 1: through that. There's also another episode called why do we
Speaker 1: Need Closure? Do we Need Closure? Is closure overrated? I
Speaker 1: cannot remember what it's called. I'll put it in the
Speaker 1: episode description. Also a really really valuable one for getting
Speaker 1: through this period. And neither of those are necessarily about
Speaker 1: being friends with your ex, but they are about getting
Speaker 1: to a point of healing and clarity where A you
Speaker 1: no longer want to be friends with your ex, or
Speaker 1: B you realize that even if you have to, there's
Speaker 1: ways to go about it. It's going to be healthy
Speaker 1: for you and healthy for your future. So I really
Speaker 1: hope that this revised version of this episode has been satisfying.
Speaker 1: I know that I have completely changed tune. I've gone
Speaker 1: from yeah, you totally can be friends with your ex,
Speaker 1: and here's my ex and we're going to prove it
Speaker 1: to absolutely not don't do that. And it's honestly because
Speaker 1: of experience, and it's because I've witnessed what that inevitably
Speaker 1: leads to and honestly some of the pain that it causes,
Speaker 1: not just between us, but for other people. So yes,
Speaker 1: thank you for listening to this episode, especially if you
Speaker 1: listen to the first one. Hopefully I've been able to
Speaker 1: convince you. Hopefully I've given you some good evidence for
Speaker 1: my opinion, and I just hope that you've enjoyed this episode.
Speaker 1: Until next time, it would be great if you guys
Speaker 1: could chuck us a follow make sure that you are
Speaker 1: around for when new episodes come out. It's almost December,
Speaker 1: and you guys know what that means. That means twelve
Speaker 1: days of guests. We have some really cool guests coming along.
Speaker 1: Make sure you are following us on Instagram at that
Speaker 1: Psychology podcast, and that you've checked out the pre order
Speaker 1: link for the book. There'll be one in the link
Speaker 1: in the description. It's a great way to support the
Speaker 1: show and to also, you know, get your hands on
Speaker 1: a lot of my thoughts in britten form Person in Progress.
Speaker 1: It's coming out in April twenty twenty five. You can
Speaker 1: see the cover. You can pre order it. The link
Speaker 1: will be in the description. Until next time, stay safe,
Speaker 1: be kind, be gentle to yourself, especially if you are
Speaker 1: going through a breakup or a heartbreak. Right now, I'm
Speaker 1: sending you lots of love and until next time, we
Speaker 1: will talk very very soon