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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stump Mom never told

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Speaker 1: you from House top Works dot com. Hi, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the podcast. This is Molly and I'm Kristin. Kristin.

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Speaker 1: Today is our Halloween episode. And you know we've already

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Speaker 1: gotten one costume from a listener. Our listener Bailey wrote

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Speaker 1: us after the Guerrilla Girls podcast and said she was

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Speaker 1: going to be free to call o, which I think

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Speaker 1: is pretty cool. That's a good one. That's a good one.

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Speaker 1: I think it'd be cool to be a gorilla girl

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Speaker 1: for Halloween. Yeah, you could just wear a gorilla monce.

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Speaker 1: It would be I think, a lot of explaining to people,

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Speaker 1: you know, not explaining, Molly, educating, educating, that's true. What

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Speaker 1: are you gonna be for Halloy? I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: President taft. I will be rolled around all night in

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Speaker 1: a bathtub and it'll be great. It sounds like you

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Speaker 1: get to use a lot of pillows for that costume,

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Speaker 1: which I think would be fun because then we just

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Speaker 1: get tired at a party. I'm just gonna call up Amy, said,

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Speaker 1: let her ask her if I can borrow her fat

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Speaker 1: suit nice, and then I'm going to get Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: call up a buddy with a with a monocle. Yes,

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Speaker 1: my my friend Jim who wears a monocle everywhere and

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Speaker 1: a top hat and a top hat. Yes, monocle Jim,

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Speaker 1: That's what I call him. Now. I think that the

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Speaker 1: inevitable question for a lady around Halloween time is if

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Speaker 1: you said to me I'm going to be president Taft,

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Speaker 1: I'd make a joke and be like, how are you

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Speaker 1: gonna be sexy president Taft? Yeah? Is there any unsexy

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Speaker 1: president Taft? Is what I would respond, Molly. And that's

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Speaker 1: because the topic of today's podcasts related to Halloween, as

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Speaker 1: requested on Facebook, is sexy and racy Halloween costumes for women?

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Speaker 1: Why are women always expected to wear a sexy costume? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And we gotta go ahead and just throwout this term

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Speaker 1: because even the New York Times has used this slut aween,

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Speaker 1: And that's the only time we're gonna say it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because Molly and I are big fans of the words slot.

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Speaker 1: But it comes up a lot around Halloween because if

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Speaker 1: you go into a costume shop or go online and

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Speaker 1: you look at women's costumes, we all know this. This

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Speaker 1: is an old, old media story. We're talking about folks

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Speaker 1: everyone knows about you know, Oh, do you want to

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Speaker 1: be sexy pirate, sexy nurse, sexy farmer, sexy astronaut, everything

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Speaker 1: is sexy? Can I can we go through a few

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Speaker 1: of the of the costumes because it's just they're so funny,

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Speaker 1: Like I just I do think that there's an element

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Speaker 1: of humor and some of these are so are so

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Speaker 1: ridiculous because it's such a stretch. Sexy SpongeBob. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: sexy Nemo, Sexy Nemo. Now, listen, people, Nemo is a

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Speaker 1: clownfish and he changes sex biological sex, uh frequently. That

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Speaker 1: was not exploring the Disney movie, but I've done a

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Speaker 1: little research on clownfish. So just throughout that factory. If

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Speaker 1: you're gonna be sexy Nemo, all right, this is my favorite, Kristen.

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Speaker 1: And if we decided to do you know, a duo costume,

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Speaker 1: I kind of want you to be the sexy Michelangelo

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Speaker 1: to my sexy Leonard. That's right. There are sexy teenage

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Speaker 1: mutant ninja turtle costumes. Oh um, racy robin Hood. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you know what I like about this

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Speaker 1: list of sexy costumes is these are all male characters too,

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Speaker 1: that's true. Well, here's another thing that kind of struck me,

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Speaker 1: Christian is there's a lot of sexy police officers, sexy firefighters, um,

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Speaker 1: sexy soldiers, and I think that these are professions that

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Speaker 1: we typically think of as male dominating. Yeah, when it

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Speaker 1: comes to Halloween, were perfectly fine having women be soldiers.

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Speaker 1: We can't have them be soldiers the rest of the year.

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Speaker 1: We still won't let them serve an active duty. But

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Speaker 1: if they're willing to be sexy when they're soldiers, maybe, yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe if they started wearing sexy or uniforms. Hey, I think,

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Speaker 1: I think I just don't want to go find Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want you at your congress person with that. Um,

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Speaker 1: there are some there are some female ones too, and

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Speaker 1: even the most unsexy females can be made into uh

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Speaker 1: to sexy Hallowen costumes. Here sexy Wednesday Adams. Okay, we

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Speaker 1: see Adam once Adams. I don't think was ever going

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Speaker 1: for Obviously, French maid. That's a big one. Pirate Wench.

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Speaker 1: Pirate Wench very common. So um oll, here's one sexy

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Speaker 1: Amelia Earhart oh Man, really yes, she was. I saw

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Speaker 1: the costumes she's wearing just kind of like booty shorts

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Speaker 1: and thigh high boots and then just like a bra

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Speaker 1: Aviators style, and the got goals. Obviously that makes me

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Speaker 1: kind of said, well, it's kind of funny, just because

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Speaker 1: I think at the end of this costume, we're going

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Speaker 1: to try and think of some more women friendly, empowering costumes,

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Speaker 1: and I think Amelia Earhart is one that a lot

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Speaker 1: of people would have thrown out. But someone's are sexied

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Speaker 1: her up. Yeah, well, everything at this point basically has

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Speaker 1: been sexied up. And by now it's established fact that

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Speaker 1: Halloween is dominated by the sexy parade of costumes, granted,

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Speaker 1: and it sets the blogs all a flutter. Everyone's got

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Speaker 1: to weigh in on this, this concept of whether it's

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Speaker 1: good for women, bad for women, good for girls, bad

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Speaker 1: for girls. And you know, there's a line of mean

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Speaker 1: girls where she goes, um, Halloween is the one night

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Speaker 1: we can dress up as a slut and no other

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Speaker 1: girls can say anything about it. You can't be judged

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Speaker 1: for because it's Halloween. And that's just not true anymore,

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Speaker 1: because it seems like everyone has some sort of opinion

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Speaker 1: on it. You have sites like Maxim saying, yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is awesome. I love this Halloween every day, and then

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Speaker 1: you have sites like Jezebel saying, oh mg, ladies, what

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Speaker 1: are we doing? Even though as well, let's say it

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Speaker 1: way cool or that, but you know, it's like, it's

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Speaker 1: still kind of u Catch twenty two for women because yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would I would say that mean girls does have

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Speaker 1: it right, because it is at this point pretty accepted

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Speaker 1: for women to bear all on Halloween. But it still comes,

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Speaker 1: I think, with some judgment. But my big question is

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Speaker 1: when we were talking about doing this podcast, was is

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Speaker 1: there some way to figure out when all of this

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Speaker 1: came about? When did we just start cutting the middrifts

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Speaker 1: out of costumes and parading around in booty shorts? I mean,

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Speaker 1: because it's cold on Halloween. My goal, by the way,

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Speaker 1: when I think of Halloween costumes is not really appearance

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Speaker 1: so much as warmth, which is which is why taft

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Speaker 1: is an excellent join, which is what have you ever

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Speaker 1: worn a fat suit? They are warm? It would be

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Speaker 1: very handy for your trick or treating. Well. There was

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Speaker 1: a two thousand six articles in the New York Times

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Speaker 1: and one lady who deals in costumes. Her theory as

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Speaker 1: to why we why we have this sexy market is

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Speaker 1: because of baby boomers. That you know, Halloween us to

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Speaker 1: be very much this homemade holiday for children, and all

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Speaker 1: they did was trick or treat and that was that

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Speaker 1: was it for Halloween. You waited for the Great Pumpkin

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Speaker 1: if you were in a Charlie Bown Brown Cat cartoon.

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Speaker 1: But that's it. But she claims that as these baby

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Speaker 1: boomers grew up, they did not want to let go

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Speaker 1: of Halloween and it became a time to throw parties

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Speaker 1: for adults and it became less about kids. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I agree with that, but that's one.

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Speaker 1: That's one theory. Yeah, I think that Halloween has definitely

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Speaker 1: become an adult holiday. Of course, we love to see

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Speaker 1: the little kitties parading around in their adorable costumes, and

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Speaker 1: then we want them to go to bed. But we

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Speaker 1: want them to go to bed so we can drink

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Speaker 1: some adult beverages. We can drink spike cider and um

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Speaker 1: and eat candy. And so is that okay? Are you kidding?

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Speaker 1: Probably not? If you're wearing skin revealing costume, even better,

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Speaker 1: I say, But but I still like the candy part

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Speaker 1: of Halloween. Now, of course, in true stuff Mom Never

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Speaker 1: told You Style, we did find a scholarly article on

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Speaker 1: gender and Halloween costumes people, And I believe she writes

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Speaker 1: in the intro that this is the only study she

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Speaker 1: knows of that is about gender and Halloween costumes. The

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Speaker 1: title of said paper is the Pink Dragon is female

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Speaker 1: Halloween costumes and gender markers. And the reason that this comes,

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Speaker 1: the reason this is gonna be relevance because you know,

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Speaker 1: it's one thing. I think if adult women want to

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Speaker 1: choose to wear something that's revealing, you know that sort of.

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Speaker 1: I think the essence of feminism is you can choose

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Speaker 1: you want to do with your body. If you want

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Speaker 1: to be a sexy firefighter, do it. If you want

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Speaker 1: to be a fully clothed firefighter, do it. That's that's

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Speaker 1: probably not the issue. And there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: women who who enjoy just like that nightive exhibitionism. Sure,

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Speaker 1: you don't normally wear sexy, you know, firefighter outfits the

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Speaker 1: rest of the year, So if you're really into that,

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Speaker 1: do it. And also, I will say the one thing,

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Speaker 1: if you you know, if you choose to wear a

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Speaker 1: scandalous Halloween costume, you might be able to get more

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Speaker 1: of a past because you're surrounded by people and scandalous

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Speaker 1: Halloween costumes, so it's not like you're just gonna be

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Speaker 1: standing out in the crowd. So it is a nice

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Speaker 1: time for people who want to explore that side of themselves.

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Speaker 1: Some flesh, show us some flesh. So there you'll find

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Speaker 1: just as many rationales like that on the Internet as

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Speaker 1: you'll find the oh my gosh, what is what is

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Speaker 1: feminism done to us? But I think it gets more

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Speaker 1: troubling when you look at what the little children are doing.

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Speaker 1: Because the Washington Post had this article that basically followed

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Speaker 1: around eleven year olds and their moms through a party

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Speaker 1: city and they could not find anything that was not

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Speaker 1: sexied up for a little eleven year old to wear. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and specifically eleven year old girls, because the boys are

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Speaker 1: gonna be superheroes, gonna Spiderman, they're going to be the

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Speaker 1: fully clothed firefighter, they're gonna be power Rangers if those

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Speaker 1: are still cool. Yeah, I was gonna say, I think

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Speaker 1: you're now you're naming costumes, but I'm dating myself and

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Speaker 1: uh today though, for girls, the whole kind of slut

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Speaker 1: oween idea has trickled down to the kid's market, and

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Speaker 1: that's I think that's what really bothers people. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think you can't get like a really cool like Eminem

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Speaker 1: costume when you're eleven. I think there's something wrong with

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Speaker 1: em sexy Cat. But that and that was the point

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Speaker 1: of this Washington Post article where all of these horrified

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Speaker 1: parents following their daughters around who wanted to be French

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Speaker 1: Mate and sexy bo Pete. But even to be like

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Speaker 1: a rock star you had to buy like a bare

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Speaker 1: middriff outfit and like this by high Boots. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's it's just every costume that could just be cool

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Speaker 1: becomes sexy. And that's why we're going to turn to

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Speaker 1: this paper. The Pink Dragon is Female by eighty Nelson

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Speaker 1: because she argues that we are the ones setting our

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Speaker 1: kids up for this. Yeah, and she claims that this

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Speaker 1: has really been we've kind of been leading up to

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Speaker 1: this point because of gender markers in children's Halloween costumes.

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Speaker 1: So get ready to look at every children's Halloween costume

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Speaker 1: with a with a just a disgusted look, because what

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Speaker 1: she does is she looks at four sixty nine children's

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Speaker 1: Halloween costumes. Sounds kind of fun. I would have been

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Speaker 1: in this study. We always have about the studies you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't do, I do this one, do this one. So

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Speaker 1: she looks at all these Halloween costumes and she basically

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Speaker 1: identifies them as aim towards girls based on whether there's

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Speaker 1: a girl in the picture, the costume is pink or

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Speaker 1: another traditional girl color, or whether it is you know,

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Speaker 1: just like a dress. It's obviously aimed for girls. She

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Speaker 1: does the same for what the ones that are aimed

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Speaker 1: at the boys, and then she does gender neutral and

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Speaker 1: gender neutral. She kind of identifies as you can't see

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Speaker 1: the kids shoes or if I mean you can, but

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Speaker 1: it's not like high heels or ballet flats, or there's

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Speaker 1: a picture of both a boy and a girl wearing

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Speaker 1: the costume. Things like food that can't be turned into

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Speaker 1: a cookie, gender Pepperoni pizza. She names the Pepperoni pizza

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Speaker 1: costume like four times in this paper, and I am

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Speaker 1: on the lookout for that costume. But as you might guess,

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Speaker 1: no gender neutral costumes really exist. Very few. Yeah. Out

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Speaker 1: of the giant pool of costumes, she found hundred masculine costumes,

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Speaker 1: two three, feminine costumes, not only forty one gender neutral costumes.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's important to point out that these

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Speaker 1: are not just also not just like the packages of

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Speaker 1: costume you can just buy, ready, mate, she just looks

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Speaker 1: at patterns at craft store, So you would think that those,

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Speaker 1: you know, I would think they'd be a little bit

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Speaker 1: more just sort of neutral, Like here's a eminem you

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Speaker 1: can make, but I mean it shows on the pattern

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Speaker 1: EXMP for example, the girl wearing the green eminem who's feminine,

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Speaker 1: and the commercials and the boys wearing like the red

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Speaker 1: and yellow at and ms, which are male in the commercial. Sure,

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Speaker 1: because a little boy might not be too jazzed about

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Speaker 1: the prospect of his mom or dad making a costume

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Speaker 1: with a little girl on the pattern. Right, So even

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Speaker 1: in just you know, the ones you make yourself that

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Speaker 1: you can put your own stamp on, those are also

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Speaker 1: very commonly recognized by the gender they're meant for. Nelson

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Speaker 1: then classifies these costumes in terms of whether it's a

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Speaker 1: hero of villain or a fool, because obviously a lot

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Speaker 1: of kids costumes are superheroes, evil witches, things like that,

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Speaker 1: And she makes the point that a lot of the descriptors.

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Speaker 1: For the boys costumes, both hero and villain are powerful words.

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Speaker 1: You know, your strong men's superhero king, whereas the girl's

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Speaker 1: costumes are usually described with more diminutive adjectives or almost

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Speaker 1: erotic adjectives. Yeah, a beautiful bride, Yes, lovely witch. Even

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Speaker 1: the witches have to be lovely, Yeah, pretty little witch, cute, cuddly, bewitched,

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Speaker 1: little skull girl, midnight madness, you know, like, yeah, you

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Speaker 1: you have this little kid who wants to be a

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Speaker 1: skull girl, but you're a little school girl girl, whereas

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Speaker 1: obviously I have a guy. If a little boy wants

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Speaker 1: to be skullboy, uh, you know, it's going to be

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Speaker 1: like wicked skull boy, scary skullboy. So you know. Nelson

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Speaker 1: makes this argument that from the time kids are toddlers.

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Speaker 1: Toddlers is when she starts seeing these patterns emerged. Infant

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Speaker 1: costumes are pretty gender neutral, but by the time kids

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Speaker 1: are toddlers, that's when they start getting these descriptions of

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Speaker 1: um descriptions attached to their costumes, which put them in

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Speaker 1: these boxes pretty early on. And she says, you know,

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Speaker 1: despite the fact that she found for more feminine costumes,

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Speaker 1: there are fewer types of feminine costumes than there are

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Speaker 1: male costumes. The men, you know, just goes on and

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Speaker 1: on forever in terms of monsters and superheroes, ups and

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Speaker 1: clowns and animals, whereas I mean, they're pretty much five

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Speaker 1: groups for girls. Princess, beauty, queen, bride, cheerleader, dancer. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's it. So she says pretty early on, we're teaching

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Speaker 1: women and little girls that Halloween is about looking beautiful

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Speaker 1: and looking the way a stereotypical every single you know,

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Speaker 1: gender norm attached to a woman looks. And so Nelson's

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Speaker 1: theory about this whole idea of adult sexy costumes is

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Speaker 1: that it starts with the kids, and it's also partially

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Speaker 1: the Halloween industries fault and our I guess our fault

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Speaker 1: for buying them, because as all the costume makers said,

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Speaker 1: Adamant leaves like, there are biggest selling. Yeah, they're the

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Speaker 1: most popular. That's the thing we're gonna you know, a

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Speaker 1: lot of a lot of us will disparage this slew

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Speaker 1: of sexy costumes and how impossible it can be to find,

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Speaker 1: not find an unsexy costume if you're a woman. But

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Speaker 1: they're putting all of them out there because they sell. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're buying them. Someone's buying them. Someone's buying them. So

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Speaker 1: I guess the question is, is it really a bad

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Speaker 1: thing if all of if so many women are dressing

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Speaker 1: up in sexy costumes. I mean, I want to hear

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Speaker 1: from listeners male and female on on this issue, because

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Speaker 1: I'm honestly a little bit torn. You know, my knee

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Speaker 1: jerk feminist reaction is cover up. Can we please get

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Speaker 1: some more Susan b. Anthony's out here, somebody for dance.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be a sexy suffraget, Kristen a sexy suffraget. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: or perhaps maybe I will, you know, be a sexy cop.

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Speaker 1: And yet it would be an ironic sexy cop. That's

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Speaker 1: what they're on. The feminine mystique in my tool belt.

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Speaker 1: And so the New York Times argues is that you

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Speaker 1: can do it with some sort of camp or humor,

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Speaker 1: that that up up ends all these gender stereotypes. But

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Speaker 1: I don't think you want to be the person at

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Speaker 1: the Halloween party going around saying yeah, this is ironic.

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Speaker 1: Is totally ironic. But there was a blog that we

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Speaker 1: found say sing that we need to stop disparaging, you know,

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Speaker 1: like I said, all these sexy female costumes, And she

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Speaker 1: points to a lot of the feminist blogs that every

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Speaker 1: every year around this time put up their photo galleries

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Speaker 1: of horror of all of these terrible, demeaning women's costumes.

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Speaker 1: But she says, you know what, in terms of sex

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Speaker 1: positive feminism, we should own this holiday to yeah, show

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Speaker 1: it off if we want to show it off. What's

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Speaker 1: wrong with that? So that's what we want your feedback on.

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Speaker 1: The second thing, as promise, we're gonna end with some

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Speaker 1: ideas that have been on the internet for feminists costumes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and also, I don't think you're getting out of this

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Speaker 1: episode scott free without sharing your costume idea. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure yet. I really do kind of like the sexy

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Speaker 1: suffrag jet idea, right, can't can't that be ironic? If

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Speaker 1: I go around and get fun facts about how women

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Speaker 1: got the vote? Or if you can't think of anything,

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Speaker 1: you can help me by pushing around my bathtub on wheels,

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Speaker 1: that'd be fine. I could be your vice president. Um,

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Speaker 1: hear a few things this This first list is from Animator,

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Speaker 1: who writes for the St. Louis Examiner. Her ideas are

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Speaker 1: Rosie the Riveter, Wonder Woman, which can be kind of

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Speaker 1: sex step unfortunately, Um, Cleopatra joan of arc familiar air Heart,

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Speaker 1: which unfortunately know it can be sexed up. Um, how

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Speaker 1: about a little more current. How about you know Justice

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Speaker 1: Kagan carry around a baseball bat or softball bat. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's I think one of her most identified

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Speaker 1: biable features. Yeah, I think so do Mayor Kagan judicial rope.

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Speaker 1: There we don't. Don't try and be a sexy Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court judge. I just think there's so much wrong with that. Um.

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Speaker 1: She throws out octo mom. So you could do some

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Speaker 1: pop culture gals. I've seen a few funny octave moms

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Speaker 1: in Halloween's Pass. I think that's a little I think

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Speaker 1: that's a little up. You played out two thousand nine,

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Speaker 1: if you ask me, Carmen san Diego, I've seen some

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Speaker 1: good Carmen san Diego as an excellent, pretty classic. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then we have another list, Gloria Steinham. And then

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Speaker 1: if you do want to be sexy, you can be

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Speaker 1: Glorious stein And when she went undercover at Playboy, see

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Speaker 1: there we go. So if you're gonna be a Playboy bunny,

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Speaker 1: please be the glorious skin Ellen Ripley from Alien that

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Speaker 1: would be fun, empowering Jim and the Holograms. I've wanted

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Speaker 1: to be Jim for a long time. So those are

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Speaker 1: a few of the ideas out there on the internet

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Speaker 1: for feminist costumes. We'd love to hear yours or just

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Speaker 1: hear about the cool, funny, uh spooky things you're gonna

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Speaker 1: be for Halloween. And the email address to send all

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Speaker 1: that too, and pictures if you feel like it, Mom

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Speaker 1: stuff at have stuff works dot com. And let's read

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Speaker 1: a few emails. I have one from the Adra and

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Speaker 1: this is from the boy Why boys don't play the

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Speaker 1: harp of the podcast so gender musical instruments, And this

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Speaker 1: one caught my eye Kristen because the subject line was

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Speaker 1: called no farts in the flute section? WHOA, She writes.

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Speaker 1: Our school band was huge in high school. We had

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Speaker 1: three separate bands, with the smallest being maybe fifty and

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Speaker 1: the largest easily one hundred. In the four years I

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Speaker 1: was there, there was always at least all gender diversity,

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Speaker 1: a boy or two in the flute and clarinet section,

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Speaker 1: a couple of girls in the trombone section, and lots

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Speaker 1: of girls scattered throughout the percussion of brass. I don't

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Speaker 1: think there was a lot of overt prejudice against students

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Speaker 1: playing opposite gendered instruments, but there were a few jokes

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Speaker 1: squaring around because about the boys being effeminate. I honestly

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Speaker 1: think it's a little more difficult for the girls, though,

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Speaker 1: if only because they were stuck sitting next to boys who,

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Speaker 1: in high school are so immature and annoying. It took

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Speaker 1: a certain kind of girl to sit surrounded by guys

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Speaker 1: and their guy humor for what could be hours at

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Speaker 1: a time. I liked hanging out with them, but I

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Speaker 1: was always happy to go back to my section. You

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Speaker 1: can only handle so many pans, jokes and spitballs. Well.

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Speaker 1: If you have thoughts to share with us, you can

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Speaker 1: email us at mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com.

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Speaker 1: You can also share it on Facebook. You can follow

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Speaker 1: us on Twitter if you like, and of course you

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Speaker 1: can check out our blog during the week, It's stuff

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Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You, and you can find it at

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Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. For more on this and

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Speaker 1: thousands of other topics, does it how stuff works dot com.

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