WEBVTT - INTERVIEW 3: Carol Rainey 0:00:02.279 --> 0:00:05.560 Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart Radio and 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:14.560 Grim and Mild from Aaron Manky. In late spring. I 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:19.360 interviewed documentary filmmaker Carol Rainey for ten years in the 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:23.200 late nineteen nineties and early two thousand's. She was married 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:28.000 to the artist and prominent UFO researcher Bud Hopkins. Even 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:30.880 before they were married, she worked with him on his research. 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:35.479 She was inside that community is alien abductions piqued in 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:40.360 public consciousness, and the stories reached the zenith of their strangeness. 0:00:42.240 --> 0:01:05.280 I'm Toby Ball, and this is Strange Arrivals. I'm Carol Rainey, 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:09.920 and I was married for ten years to Bud Hopkins, 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:17.320 abstract expressionist painter and UFO researcher. And I came from 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:24.440 a background uh spending twenty years making films for epidemiologists 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:29.160 in the Boston area, and that involved writing many many 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:35.240 grants to National Institutes of Health along with the epidemiologists, 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:39.720 and we brought in millions in grant funding to make 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:43.760 films about issues of public health. I don't come from 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:48.120 a science background originally, but in all of those years 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:53.320 of working for epidemiologists and later in New York City 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:59.480 with the major medical institutions like New York Presbyterian Um. 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:04.640 I learned a lot about how scientists think about protocols, 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:12.160 how they think about they're hypothesis about some some phenomena 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:17.519 in the natural world, and how they go about gaining 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:22.160 real knowledge in the real world. And that was pretty 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:27.600 wonderful to know about. What was Bud's sort of hypothesis 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:32.239 about alien abductions. I would say he started developing that 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:38.200 even before his his first book, Missing Time, but he 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:44.320 had a pretty good a line on the narrative that 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:49.360 many people in the United States, we're being out and 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:53.720 about in a lonely place somewhere where nobody else was, 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:57.080 you know, out riding along at night in their car, 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:00.800 and if they stop and get out, there would be 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:05.120 a bright light overhead, and there would be a UFO 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:09.400 looking at them, and eventually the light would get extremely 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:13.840 close and the person would be pulled up a beam 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:19.680 of light into the alien craft and there they would 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:25.720 be examined and prodded and tested and eventually had their 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:30.360 reproductive organs dealt with in one form or another. And 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:35.360 this was the idea that people who were taken out 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:38.200 of their out of their cars, out of their their 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:42.440 walk in the woods, that they were being used and 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:47.520 through many extents, abused by a t S who came 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:56.160 down for whatever reason to interact with humans. And then 0:03:56.320 --> 0:04:00.280 he So my understanding is that he kind of took 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:13.880 that original narrative and then sort of a wildly expanded it. Um. Well, 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:17.880 I think the narrative that may not be fair. It 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:20.039 is in a way, and there are reasons for that. 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:27.080 But um, but first of all, it's extremely bright, very articulate, 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.240 able to think on his feet. I mean, I admired 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:35.039 so much about him, um, including his art, which is 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:39.440 I married an artist, as did his wife, second wife, 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:45.640 I'm sure. But um, by the time I met him, 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.360 he'd pretty much given up on being part of the 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:54.600 art world in Manhattan, and is almost his entire life 0:04:54.760 --> 0:05:00.479 was really taken up with being this leader in a 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:05.160 movement called alien abduction. And his best friend in the 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:09.159 world was David Jacobs, and they were as close as 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:14.560 father and son or two brothers. They spent hours talking 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:18.719 on the phone to each other, sharing their cases and 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:25.200 in many cases they shared actual abductees. And I'll use 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:30.200 the word the abductee that people called themselves it's not 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.960 that I'm saying they are they aren't. I'm just you know, 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:38.280 that that's their designation of themselves, so I call them that. 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:46.760 And then so he um again that this is my 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:53.920 my my impression is that that he and Jacobs um 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:57.560 both sort of ended up coming to the conclusion that 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:00.560 the number of people who are being abducted was was 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:07.200 far higher than was sort of previously thought. Yes, and 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:13.400 that's partly because um. Bud's work expanded the original narrative, 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:18.440 and he did stay relatively close to the pattern from 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:23.880 the Hill case Betty and Barney Hill. But what his 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:28.520 writing added to it was that nobody was safe anywhere, 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:34.400 that aliens could enter your bedroom at night, coming straight 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:40.400 through the walls, coming through the windows. I mean, his 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:45.000 view of alien beings in the world was that they 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:50.840 were godlike. Really they i mean, ordinary physics did not 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.920 prohibit them from doing whatever they wanted to do to 0:06:54.960 --> 0:07:03.800 take advantage of people's helpless business. And they were the 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:08.120 abductees were used in in Bud's thought, in the same 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:11.960 way that we observe you know, wolves out on the 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:16.480 out in the forest or out on the in the wild, 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:21.200 in the wild, and we experimented on them to some 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:25.880 degree from Afar, and that's what he felt the aliens 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:30.000 were doing to us. They might put tracking devices in us, 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:35.480 like um, you know what what's called an implant these days? 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:40.480 And you know, many of his people came up with 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:48.240 those implants, partly to um add credence to Bud's narrative 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:53.560 and because that was the story that was becoming increasingly 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:58.520 popular in mainstream media during the nineteen eighties and nineties 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:03.320 and the during the nineties. I met him in nine 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:11.680 and I had never heard of UFOs literally, nor had 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:15.160 I heard of alien abduction. By the time I met him. 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:19.640 Fours too complicated to go into. Why was such a virgin? 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:23.520 But I was so this seemed like a great intellectual 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:29.080 adventure that I was going to go on. Um. I 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:36.160 had left behind a clan of seventy close family members 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:42.400 who were fundamentalist Christians in the Midwest, and basically lost 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:46.240 the entire family. So I think when I heard about 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:50.920 this there was a spiritual element to it too, And 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:56.120 it was only much much later, nine years later, that 0:08:56.240 --> 0:09:01.240 I discovered that but also had a ritual element in 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:07.640 what he was wanting to do, And his sister informed 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:09.719 me after we've been married, I don't know, eight or 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:16.720 nine years, that Bud, who wasn't avowed atheist, that he 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:22.079 had once as a young man, applied to the Princeton 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:29.880 School of Theology and was accepted after high school, so 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:34.160 he was set up to become a minister, a spiritual leader. 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:40.760 And I couldn't believe that, after all of these years 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:45.720 and our shared intimacies, that he had never once mentioned 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:49.880 that he had wanted to be a minister and had 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:55.120 been enrolled at Princeton. So that was very, very startling 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.040 to me. But I could see it in the way 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:05.200 that he ministered to needy people who just filled the 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:12.119 apartment most days, and it was a very overwhelming lifestyle. 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:19.480 It was UFOs. I had left my job in production 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:25.760 in Boston, so I got my own camera and started 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:29.920 shooting yet one more documentary, but this one would be 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:35.040 you know, nobody, no strings attached, no no federal funding, 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:38.840 no state funding, no city funding. Funded out of my 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:43.079 back pocket. Yeah, that gave me a great deal of freedom. 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:49.679 So a lot of the evidence that I was gradually 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:56.319 building up in terms of the validity of this phenomenon 0:10:56.880 --> 0:11:00.720 is on videotape, and I have over a hundred hours 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:06.360 of tape. Unfortunately it's it's um in a lower format 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:10.000 that's going to be hard to use today. But uh, 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.040 that's you know, I can use the transcripts of that 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:18.800 to quote people directly, and I have hypno successions with 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:23.560 many of the abductees. But Bud was all for that 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:28.520 and completely backed it and said I was free to 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:34.480 use any of his resources. And when the witness case, 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:37.880 which was where he was focused when I met him, 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:41.240 he opened the drawer where and the cabinets were all 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:47.800 of the evidence was for that case, and he said, 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:51.440 it's yours, go in. And again that impressed me that 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:55.960 he was that open to having me on my own 0:11:56.200 --> 0:12:00.480 terms research what he had already been researching for I 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:05.959 don't know, eight nine, ten years when I met him, 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:10.200 so he hadn't yet completed Witnessed when I met him, 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:14.600 and he handed the manuscript to me to read, and 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:21.400 a can bond was very believable. Um, you know, one 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:26.439 of the more intelligent people I've ever met, but with 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:30.920 this caveat, not at all given to science or interest 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:38.240 in science. He knew almost nothing about psychology or psychiatry 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:44.040 or recovered memories. He didn't know, except you know, kind 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:46.640 of to mouth at a bit. He didn't know anything 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:52.679 about scientific protocols, were the scientific method and how you 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:57.800 use that to make sure that the information you believe 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:02.000 you're gaining in the world, that that information is valid. 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:07.840 And you know that. As I became more and more 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:11.920 part of the uf A world, I became less and 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:17.240 less convinced that many of the people doing research, we're 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:25.200 doing it with enough valid understanding of science and manipulation 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:33.480 of testimony and leading witnesses, all of those sorts of things. 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:38.200 Nothing about neurobiology. None of them knew anything about that 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:43.560 except for I won't say nobody, but the people in 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:48.400 my immediate circle, where David Jacobs, John mac and Bud Hopkins, 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:53.040 and John was the only one with a background in science. 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.880 It's interesting thing you say that, because I do feel, 0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:59.319 just as I've been doing research for this podcast, that 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:06.200 there's sort of this kind of science adjacent um work 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:10.360 that's being done which isn't very you know, doesn't doesn't 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:14.680 have the critical ah, I don't know, sort of self 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:19.960 examination or or initial skepticism about about data that you 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:25.600 expect from No, there's too much credulousness after a while. 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:30.040 But I can explain some of that because as a 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:34.040 complete newbie, not having I mean I was in graduate 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:37.360 school for years and years. Nobody talks about UFOs there, 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:42.040 but um so it was so new to me that 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:48.640 I was very open minded, very willing to listen. But 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:53.840 I never lost my critical faculties. And I can tell 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:59.000 you that when I was spending you know seven involved 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:02.240 in the uf O foren dominent and with producers and 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:06.800 directors coming in and taking shows all through the nineties, 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:11.000 it was like back to back production in our apartment. 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:17.040 But here's what what happened to me. I at a 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:23.720 certain point, again, coming from academia and medical fields, I 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:28.080 still had you know, you never completely outgrow your your 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:34.240 first education, and mine was the fundamentalist take on the 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.840 development of the entire world and all of humanity. And 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:44.800 there's something in me still longed to incorporate a more 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:49.160 spiritual understanding of myself. And this was John max take 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:54.800 on it too. John was so not interested in science. Um. 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:58.880 Once I was sitting on a porch in Newport and 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:03.240 Newport and Breakfast, where a bunch of people interested in 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:07.920 the subject gathered every summer, and I was in the 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:11.640 middle of writing sight Unseen with Bud and I started 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:16.160 to tell him about this really exciting find I had 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:23.000 that science research had just developed the use of a 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:28.320 laser beam of light that would pull objects up the light, 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:34.920 which is exactly what was being reported by um by abductees, 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:38.560 that they were pulled up the light, which sounds science 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:42.440 fiction crazy, But I was out there researching cutting edge 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:47.440 scientific discoveries, and so I'm telling John this, I'm excited. 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:51.080 He looked at me and he just said, Carol, I'm 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:56.000 not interested in the science, and I just started laughing. 0:16:56.240 --> 0:17:00.440 I just because that was the hope of people like 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:04.000 Bud and Dave, who knew they weren't scientists and didn't 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.119 really have any interests in science. They hoped that John 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:12.000 would come in to the field and bring serious scientific 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:19.400 research into the field. I mean, they genuinely did. And 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:24.840 that wasn't John's interest. He was definitely more interested in 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:32.200 an extra terrestrial outreach program and something that would be 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:40.920 um a welcoming program for any beings who might approach 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:48.280 the Earth. And Bud and Dave regarded what they were 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:53.880 their their findings as they interpreted them. They regarded their 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:59.639 findings as showing that that if the aliens were here 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.359 to ar mess and we didn't know maybe they were, 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:05.920 that they certainly weren't here to do us any good. 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:11.720 Um that they used us basically as research subjects, and 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:16.040 they had no compunction about coming into our bedrooms at night, 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.560 or dipping into our cars or wherever we happened to 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:26.640 be and vacuum us up and um either experiment with 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:31.320 eggs and sperm. You know, none of this makes sense 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:38.920 scientifically over decades and decades, but anyway, that those were 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:45.800 the two opposing forces in research at that time. For me, 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:51.760 what what was amazing and I could kind of catch 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:57.560 myself doing it but not entirely, is that there's almost 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:04.960 a force yield that is set up for anyone in 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:09.120 the in the area, in in reach of it when 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:13.560 that is a strong belief that this is what is happening, 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.359 and we're trying hard to prove that this is what 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:20.880 is happening, and that is happening all over the world. 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:26.280 And we have evidence of what Bud called evidence would 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:34.480 be people sending him um snapshots of mark on their body, 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.600 whether it was a scar or a bruise or whatever. 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:42.359 And John knew that those wouldn't those would not be 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.439 taken well as evidence. You know, it's not something you 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:51.239 gather first person. There's there's no there's no guard on 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:57.920 the chain of custody, none of that. So um things 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:01.439 that Bud and Dave considered to be it is, I 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:06.440 did not, And but that didn't stop me from being 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:13.760 pulled over into that that sphere of strangeness is all 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:18.760 I could say, strangeness and felt like it was paranormal. 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:24.879 It felt like these stories that I was videotaping, not 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:27.159 just what Bud was telling me, but what I was 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:32.640 hearing and putting on tape, that there was enough there, 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:37.760 enough similarities between the stories that you had to pay attention. 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:44.199 And at some point I remember thinking when I was 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:49.240 shooting with Bud, we were on Cape Cod and um, 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:51.520 a man I didn't know had called in and was 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:55.120 talking to him. And I walked through the room and 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:58.840 I heard Bud say, did they come through the wall 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:02.800 this time too? And when I thought about it a 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:06.040 few minutes later, I thought, I didn't even break a sweat, 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:09.359 I didn't even jump when he said that. I just 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:14.880 accepted that's how it happens. And you know, when when 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:18.119 that happens to you, you need you know, you need 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:22.080 you know, you need to put your guard up even more. 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:27.360 And I would always always ask him skeptical questions. That's 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:31.440 really interesting. Did he welcome sort of skeptical questions or 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:35.320 was that was that seen as uh sort of questioning 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:41.960 his work or authority or what have you. Yes, Um, 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:47.359 he was good with me in the beginning. Um. He 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:53.320 wanted me to see what he saw and UM again 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:58.520 offered all of the you know, tape recordings over what 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:01.840 a twenty someome year period and for me that we're 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:09.160 open to my inspection, my listening. Um. But he wanted 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:13.280 me to be able to ask questions on camera because 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:18.000 that's where some of the best most spontaneous material happens, 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:20.919 is when you're just going through your day and you 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:24.280 pick up the camera and I start to ask him 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:26.359 about the phone call that had just happened in the 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:30.400 Cape Cod house and you know, he tells me about it. 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:36.000 It's good stuff. I mean, I'm a filmmaker, and you know, 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:41.560 I had a really articulate, no wacko husband who was 0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:45.840 telling me things I've never heard about. So it was 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:51.720 worth listening and I did strange arrivals will return in 0:22:51.760 --> 0:23:06.760 a moment so maybe you can tell me a little 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:09.560 bit about the Linda Quartill case, because that that that 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:12.000 seems to be sort of the height of things or 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:16.840 a turning point. No, I think, um, the Linda Quartilla 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:21.359 case was his big case. And one of the things 0:23:21.400 --> 0:23:26.119 that why the Linda Quartilla case was such a huge 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:32.040 case for him is that it pushed new boundaries. I mean, 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:37.640 the thing is, there's almost no money in working the 0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:44.160 UFO research field unless you're doing regular gigs like standard 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:48.159 Stan Friedman, who was a friend of mine, and you know, 0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:51.359 he knew how to market himself and he got gigs 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:56.400 all over the world actually, so he kept a modest 0:23:56.480 --> 0:24:02.160 income coming in. Bud didn't do that. His The way 0:24:02.200 --> 0:24:09.399 he worked was to have really strong concept in missing time, 0:24:10.480 --> 0:24:14.520 and then he was only interested in cases after that 0:24:14.520 --> 0:24:22.359 that broke new ground. So um, the the case in 0:24:22.359 --> 0:24:27.159 Intruders broke all sorts of new ground in terms of 0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:34.360 him claiming to have discovered patterns. Um. I guess in 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:40.399 that case it would be the breeding pattern of abductees 0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:46.159 who would feel they had once been um their eggs 0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:49.760 had been taken or the sperm had been harvested, and 0:24:50.040 --> 0:24:54.200 years later they'll be taken aboard a craft and they 0:24:54.240 --> 0:24:59.320 will see what they believe are their children, half alien, 0:24:59.400 --> 0:25:03.280 half you. And and you know, it began to get 0:25:03.440 --> 0:25:08.480 so weird to me that I would push back even 0:25:08.560 --> 0:25:14.159 more on how that knowledge came to be. But the 0:25:14.240 --> 0:25:19.200 deal was and I would go when we were thinking 0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:23.080 of writing a book together based on my science background 0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:29.440 and looking at cutting edge aspects of science that would 0:25:30.640 --> 0:25:34.680 possibly illuminate the UFO phenomenon. When we were doing that, 0:25:34.840 --> 0:25:38.320 we went to talk to a couple of editors at 0:25:38.359 --> 0:25:42.879 publishing houses and what they said categorically, don't come I 0:25:42.880 --> 0:25:45.879 mean this was in what this must have been the 0:25:45.920 --> 0:25:48.920 early two thousand's. They said, don't come back unless you 0:25:49.000 --> 0:25:53.919 have a brand new, never seen before idea um for 0:25:54.040 --> 0:25:59.760 a U phone book. So the push is always for new, bigger, better, 0:26:00.080 --> 0:26:04.840 more outlandish. And I would say that Dave and Bud 0:26:04.920 --> 0:26:09.560 definitely delivered on that in each of their books. So 0:26:09.600 --> 0:26:12.800 that's where the pressure was coming was from from the 0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:16.200 need to publish and the fact that you just can't 0:26:16.200 --> 0:26:19.879 publish the same book again. Well that and to have 0:26:20.080 --> 0:26:24.520 any any uh kind of standing in the lecture circuit 0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:28.640 UFO lecture circuit, you have to have new material, new 0:26:28.680 --> 0:26:31.760 cases to present. Always people don't want to come there 0:26:31.800 --> 0:26:33.800 and you know, pay to hear the same thing they've 0:26:33.800 --> 0:26:41.280 heard before, so they were always he was wanting cases 0:26:41.440 --> 0:26:47.360 that would further develop the narrative, or as he might say, 0:26:47.640 --> 0:26:51.840 cases that would illuminate it further. Yeah, it's interesting, and 0:26:52.200 --> 0:26:53.639 you know, you know what to respond to this, but 0:26:54.400 --> 0:26:59.200 you know, it's it's similar time period to the Satanic Panic, 0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:04.760 which was also absert with with people being used as breeders, 0:27:05.440 --> 0:27:13.560 which I hadn't really and that was I started reading 0:27:13.600 --> 0:27:19.200 that literature down in my studio maybe sometime into knowing Bud, 0:27:19.680 --> 0:27:24.399 maybe about three or four years into it. And then 0:27:24.680 --> 0:27:32.679 came the multiple personality um debacle with women they're mainly 0:27:32.720 --> 0:27:37.880 women therapist kind of taking women under their under their 0:27:37.920 --> 0:27:42.119 wing and helping to develop their own narratives of having 0:27:42.320 --> 0:27:48.120 you know, ten, twelve, fifteen different personalities within one body 0:27:48.359 --> 0:27:54.640 and um, you know, whether that phenomenon has any basis 0:27:54.680 --> 0:28:00.040 in reality, perhaps, but it's extraordinarily rare. There was a 0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:04.760 creation factor here. The therapists were creating the very thing 0:28:05.240 --> 0:28:12.080 that they wanted to study, and the Satanic, the ritual 0:28:12.080 --> 0:28:16.679 abuse the phenomenon was part of that at about the 0:28:16.720 --> 0:28:21.560 same time it came along and was written about beautifully 0:28:21.600 --> 0:28:26.080 by a New Yorker writer, Lawrence Wright. And I started 0:28:26.119 --> 0:28:31.520 reading all of that information and couldn't really get Bud 0:28:31.560 --> 0:28:35.320 to read or take any of it seriously, but I 0:28:35.440 --> 0:28:39.560 felt it should be. It was new information coming into 0:28:39.600 --> 0:28:45.840 our understanding of how people developed their own internal narratives, 0:28:46.840 --> 0:28:51.440 and that there were some very, very big red flags 0:28:51.520 --> 0:28:57.000 dropped in that research. And Bud considered anything like that 0:28:57.120 --> 0:29:01.880 to be the work of skeptics. And his favorite word 0:29:02.080 --> 0:29:05.800 was debunker, and it was a word used a great 0:29:05.960 --> 0:29:11.800 scorn and derision, and you know, so he quickly let 0:29:11.840 --> 0:29:16.400 me know that debunking would not be acceptable in his household. 0:29:17.440 --> 0:29:21.960 So I was. I just kept asking questions. It was 0:29:22.000 --> 0:29:25.480 all I could do. And when we got to my 0:29:25.680 --> 0:29:30.360 documenting the Linda Quartila case, Linda was in and out 0:29:30.400 --> 0:29:36.760 of our house often, and there was alien abduction support 0:29:36.840 --> 0:29:41.600 groups in the front room somewhat regular basis, although I 0:29:41.640 --> 0:29:45.040 guess they'd been doing that in the eighties and early 0:29:45.160 --> 0:29:48.760 nineties before I got there. But that's where I first 0:29:48.840 --> 0:29:53.280 met Linda, was at an alien abduction support meeting, and 0:29:53.720 --> 0:30:00.200 what I began to understand from attending those meetings is 0:30:00.240 --> 0:30:05.080 that if you were new to the field, you could 0:30:05.160 --> 0:30:08.640 pick up everything you needed to know about being a 0:30:08.760 --> 0:30:13.520 standard abductee just by going to those support group meetings 0:30:13.760 --> 0:30:19.080 and by talking with other abductees. They would lay out 0:30:19.640 --> 0:30:23.400 certain patterns and other people would second that and they 0:30:23.400 --> 0:30:27.000 would say, oh, that happened to me too, And Bud 0:30:27.040 --> 0:30:32.760 would guide the discussions, and I was I did call 0:30:32.920 --> 0:30:37.800 him on this in terms of support group meetings. I said, 0:30:37.840 --> 0:30:40.920 why don't you use an a a kind of model 0:30:41.440 --> 0:30:48.680 where there is no leader, where the witnesses, the abductees 0:30:48.720 --> 0:30:55.040 themselves could guide the discussion and instead of you leading it. 0:30:55.560 --> 0:30:59.320 And my objection to his leading the discussion was that 0:30:59.360 --> 0:31:03.200 he would tell people about brand new cases and the 0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:07.680 things he was most interested in pursuing. Well, this is 0:31:07.720 --> 0:31:15.520 a very tight group of very bright, sensitive, artistically driven people. 0:31:15.760 --> 0:31:19.560 I respected them a lot, and I did not think 0:31:19.560 --> 0:31:23.720 they were crazy. Not once. Um. I mean there were 0:31:23.760 --> 0:31:26.600 some of the margins, but they weren't part of that group. 0:31:28.000 --> 0:31:33.479 But they were people to whom something was happening, and 0:31:33.560 --> 0:31:39.480 that fascinated me and still should fascinate researchers. Um, if 0:31:39.600 --> 0:31:44.440 it's you know, psychosomatic, if it's being if the narrative 0:31:44.560 --> 0:31:51.720 is being developed entirely inside individuals. And then they meet 0:31:52.280 --> 0:31:56.320 in some sort of a place like a support group, 0:31:56.640 --> 0:32:00.720 and they began to share things they've picked stup from 0:32:00.920 --> 0:32:08.080 television series which were everywhere, or from movies, from reading 0:32:08.120 --> 0:32:11.320 Bud's books. They came with a hell of a lot 0:32:11.320 --> 0:32:15.840 of knowledge about what other people were saying about their experiences. 0:32:16.560 --> 0:32:20.840 They were not, you know, blank slates. They came in 0:32:21.000 --> 0:32:26.680 knowing the material. And when you're working with that psychologically, 0:32:28.640 --> 0:32:33.560 you know, research shows there's a great deal of spread 0:32:34.720 --> 0:32:42.360 um of terms and means and and thoughts and patterns 0:32:42.400 --> 0:32:47.600 between the researcher himself and the people who have come 0:32:47.640 --> 0:32:53.520 to him for help um and between each other. They 0:32:54.320 --> 0:32:59.680 would pass ideas back and forth, and Bud by either 0:33:00.000 --> 0:33:07.200 pumping on them those ideas, you know, like somebody had found, um, 0:33:07.400 --> 0:33:11.040 cherry blossoms on the floor of her bedroom after an 0:33:11.040 --> 0:33:18.600 abduction that led to Bud confirming that that meant an 0:33:18.640 --> 0:33:21.880 alien had come through the window and pulled some branches 0:33:21.960 --> 0:33:29.040 in on the way in, et cetera. So it was 0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:33.240 to me it was fairly easy to see how a 0:33:34.160 --> 0:33:41.760 researcher without really careful careful protocols and without being peer reviewed, 0:33:41.960 --> 0:33:50.040 that such a researcher could intentionally or totally unintentionally creating 0:33:51.120 --> 0:33:53.600 the story of what had happened to all of these people, 0:33:54.720 --> 0:33:59.240 and they would often welcome it because the story of 0:33:59.280 --> 0:34:04.080 being abducted by aliens explained what was dysfunctional in each 0:34:04.120 --> 0:34:06.880 of their lives. And you know, just as you and 0:34:06.960 --> 0:34:09.920 I have some things that don't work as well as 0:34:09.960 --> 0:34:13.760 we wished. If you found an idea, if you found 0:34:13.840 --> 0:34:19.399 some concept that explained why you felt uneasy at night, 0:34:19.719 --> 0:34:23.600 or why you were really mournful at a particular time 0:34:23.680 --> 0:34:29.040