1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart Radio and 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: Grim and Mild from Aaron Manky. In late spring. I 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: interviewed documentary filmmaker Carol Rainey for ten years in the 4 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: late nineteen nineties and early two thousand's. She was married 5 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: to the artist and prominent UFO researcher Bud Hopkins. Even 6 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: before they were married, she worked with him on his research. 7 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: She was inside that community is alien abductions piqued in 8 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: public consciousness, and the stories reached the zenith of their strangeness. 9 00:00:42,240 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: I'm Toby Ball, and this is Strange Arrivals. I'm Carol Rainey, 10 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: and I was married for ten years to Bud Hopkins, 11 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: abstract expressionist painter and UFO researcher. And I came from 12 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: a background uh spending twenty years making films for epidemiologists 13 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: in the Boston area, and that involved writing many many 14 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: grants to National Institutes of Health along with the epidemiologists, 15 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: and we brought in millions in grant funding to make 16 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: films about issues of public health. I don't come from 17 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: a science background originally, but in all of those years 18 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: of working for epidemiologists and later in New York City 19 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: with the major medical institutions like New York Presbyterian Um. 20 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: I learned a lot about how scientists think about protocols, 21 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: how they think about they're hypothesis about some some phenomena 22 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 1: in the natural world, and how they go about gaining 23 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: real knowledge in the real world. And that was pretty 24 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: wonderful to know about. What was Bud's sort of hypothesis 25 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:32,239 Speaker 1: about alien abductions. I would say he started developing that 26 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: even before his his first book, Missing Time, but he 27 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: had a pretty good a line on the narrative that 28 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: many people in the United States, we're being out and 29 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: about in a lonely place somewhere where nobody else was, 30 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: you know, out riding along at night in their car, 31 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: and if they stop and get out, there would be 32 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: a bright light overhead, and there would be a UFO 33 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: looking at them, and eventually the light would get extremely 34 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: close and the person would be pulled up a beam 35 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: of light into the alien craft and there they would 36 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: be examined and prodded and tested and eventually had their 37 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: reproductive organs dealt with in one form or another. And 38 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: this was the idea that people who were taken out 39 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: of their out of their cars, out of their their 40 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: walk in the woods, that they were being used and 41 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: through many extents, abused by a t S who came 42 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: down for whatever reason to interact with humans. And then 43 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: he So my understanding is that he kind of took 44 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: that original narrative and then sort of a wildly expanded it. Um. Well, 45 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: I think the narrative that may not be fair. It 46 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: is in a way, and there are reasons for that. 47 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: But um, but first of all, it's extremely bright, very articulate, 48 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: able to think on his feet. I mean, I admired 49 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 1: so much about him, um, including his art, which is 50 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: I married an artist, as did his wife, second wife, 51 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: I'm sure. But um, by the time I met him, 52 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: he'd pretty much given up on being part of the 53 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 1: art world in Manhattan, and is almost his entire life 54 00:04:54,760 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 1: was really taken up with being this leader in a 55 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: movement called alien abduction. And his best friend in the 56 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 1: world was David Jacobs, and they were as close as 57 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: father and son or two brothers. They spent hours talking 58 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: on the phone to each other, sharing their cases and 59 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: in many cases they shared actual abductees. And I'll use 60 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: the word the abductee that people called themselves it's not 61 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: that I'm saying they are they aren't. I'm just you know, 62 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: that that's their designation of themselves, so I call them that. 63 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: And then so he um again that this is my 64 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: my my impression is that that he and Jacobs um 65 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: both sort of ended up coming to the conclusion that 66 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: the number of people who are being abducted was was 67 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: far higher than was sort of previously thought. Yes, and 68 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: that's partly because um. Bud's work expanded the original narrative, 69 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: and he did stay relatively close to the pattern from 70 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: the Hill case Betty and Barney Hill. But what his 71 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: writing added to it was that nobody was safe anywhere, 72 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: that aliens could enter your bedroom at night, coming straight 73 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: through the walls, coming through the windows. I mean, his 74 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: view of alien beings in the world was that they 75 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: were godlike. Really they i mean, ordinary physics did not 76 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: prohibit them from doing whatever they wanted to do to 77 00:06:54,960 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: take advantage of people's helpless business. And they were the 78 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: abductees were used in in Bud's thought, in the same 79 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: way that we observe you know, wolves out on the 80 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: out in the forest or out on the in the wild, 81 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: in the wild, and we experimented on them to some 82 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: degree from Afar, and that's what he felt the aliens 83 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: were doing to us. They might put tracking devices in us, 84 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: like um, you know what what's called an implant these days? 85 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: And you know, many of his people came up with 86 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: those implants, partly to um add credence to Bud's narrative 87 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: and because that was the story that was becoming increasingly 88 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: popular in mainstream media during the nineteen eighties and nineties 89 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: and the during the nineties. I met him in nine 90 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: and I had never heard of UFOs literally, nor had 91 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: I heard of alien abduction. By the time I met him. 92 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: Fours too complicated to go into. Why was such a virgin? 93 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: But I was so this seemed like a great intellectual 94 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: adventure that I was going to go on. Um. I 95 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: had left behind a clan of seventy close family members 96 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: who were fundamentalist Christians in the Midwest, and basically lost 97 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: the entire family. So I think when I heard about 98 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: this there was a spiritual element to it too, And 99 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: it was only much much later, nine years later, that 100 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: I discovered that but also had a ritual element in 101 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: what he was wanting to do, And his sister informed 102 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:09,719 Speaker 1: me after we've been married, I don't know, eight or 103 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: nine years, that Bud, who wasn't avowed atheist, that he 104 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: had once as a young man, applied to the Princeton 105 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: School of Theology and was accepted after high school, so 106 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: he was set up to become a minister, a spiritual leader. 107 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: And I couldn't believe that, after all of these years 108 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: and our shared intimacies, that he had never once mentioned 109 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: that he had wanted to be a minister and had 110 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: been enrolled at Princeton. So that was very, very startling 111 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: to me. But I could see it in the way 112 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: that he ministered to needy people who just filled the 113 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:12,119 Speaker 1: apartment most days, and it was a very overwhelming lifestyle. 114 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: It was UFOs. I had left my job in production 115 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: in Boston, so I got my own camera and started 116 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: shooting yet one more documentary, but this one would be 117 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: you know, nobody, no strings attached, no no federal funding, 118 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: no state funding, no city funding. Funded out of my 119 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 1: back pocket. Yeah, that gave me a great deal of freedom. 120 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: So a lot of the evidence that I was gradually 121 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 1: building up in terms of the validity of this phenomenon 122 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: is on videotape, and I have over a hundred hours 123 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: of tape. Unfortunately it's it's um in a lower format 124 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: that's going to be hard to use today. But uh, 125 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: that's you know, I can use the transcripts of that 126 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: to quote people directly, and I have hypno successions with 127 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: many of the abductees. But Bud was all for that 128 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: and completely backed it and said I was free to 129 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: use any of his resources. And when the witness case, 130 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: which was where he was focused when I met him, 131 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: he opened the drawer where and the cabinets were all 132 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: of the evidence was for that case, and he said, 133 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: it's yours, go in. And again that impressed me that 134 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: he was that open to having me on my own 135 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: terms research what he had already been researching for I 136 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: don't know, eight nine, ten years when I met him, 137 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: so he hadn't yet completed Witnessed when I met him, 138 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: and he handed the manuscript to me to read, and 139 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: a can bond was very believable. Um, you know, one 140 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 1: of the more intelligent people I've ever met, but with 141 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: this caveat, not at all given to science or interest 142 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: in science. He knew almost nothing about psychology or psychiatry 143 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: or recovered memories. He didn't know, except you know, kind 144 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: of to mouth at a bit. He didn't know anything 145 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 1: about scientific protocols, were the scientific method and how you 146 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: use that to make sure that the information you believe 147 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: you're gaining in the world, that that information is valid. 148 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: And you know that. As I became more and more 149 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: part of the uf A world, I became less and 150 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: less convinced that many of the people doing research, we're 151 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: doing it with enough valid understanding of science and manipulation 152 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: of testimony and leading witnesses, all of those sorts of things. 153 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: Nothing about neurobiology. None of them knew anything about that 154 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: except for I won't say nobody, but the people in 155 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: my immediate circle, where David Jacobs, John mac and Bud Hopkins, 156 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: and John was the only one with a background in science. 157 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: It's interesting thing you say that, because I do feel, 158 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 1: just as I've been doing research for this podcast, that 159 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: there's sort of this kind of science adjacent um work 160 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: that's being done which isn't very you know, doesn't doesn't 161 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: have the critical ah, I don't know, sort of self 162 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: examination or or initial skepticism about about data that you 163 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: expect from No, there's too much credulousness after a while. 164 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: But I can explain some of that because as a 165 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: complete newbie, not having I mean I was in graduate 166 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: school for years and years. Nobody talks about UFOs there, 167 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: but um so it was so new to me that 168 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: I was very open minded, very willing to listen. But 169 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: I never lost my critical faculties. And I can tell 170 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: you that when I was spending you know seven involved 171 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: in the uf O foren dominent and with producers and 172 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: directors coming in and taking shows all through the nineties, 173 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: it was like back to back production in our apartment. 174 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: But here's what what happened to me. I at a 175 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: certain point, again, coming from academia and medical fields, I 176 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: still had you know, you never completely outgrow your your 177 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: first education, and mine was the fundamentalist take on the 178 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: development of the entire world and all of humanity. And 179 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: there's something in me still longed to incorporate a more 180 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: spiritual understanding of myself. And this was John max take 181 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: on it too. John was so not interested in science. Um. 182 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: Once I was sitting on a porch in Newport and 183 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: Newport and Breakfast, where a bunch of people interested in 184 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: the subject gathered every summer, and I was in the 185 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: middle of writing sight Unseen with Bud and I started 186 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: to tell him about this really exciting find I had 187 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: that science research had just developed the use of a 188 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: laser beam of light that would pull objects up the light, 189 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: which is exactly what was being reported by um by abductees, 190 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: that they were pulled up the light, which sounds science 191 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: fiction crazy, But I was out there researching cutting edge 192 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: scientific discoveries, and so I'm telling John this, I'm excited. 193 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: He looked at me and he just said, Carol, I'm 194 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: not interested in the science, and I just started laughing. 195 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: I just because that was the hope of people like 196 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: Bud and Dave, who knew they weren't scientists and didn't 197 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: really have any interests in science. They hoped that John 198 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: would come in to the field and bring serious scientific 199 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: research into the field. I mean, they genuinely did. And 200 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: that wasn't John's interest. He was definitely more interested in 201 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: an extra terrestrial outreach program and something that would be 202 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 1: um a welcoming program for any beings who might approach 203 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: the Earth. And Bud and Dave regarded what they were 204 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 1: their their findings as they interpreted them. They regarded their 205 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: findings as showing that that if the aliens were here 206 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: to ar mess and we didn't know maybe they were, 207 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 1: that they certainly weren't here to do us any good. 208 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: Um that they used us basically as research subjects, and 209 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: they had no compunction about coming into our bedrooms at night, 210 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: or dipping into our cars or wherever we happened to 211 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 1: be and vacuum us up and um either experiment with 212 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: eggs and sperm. You know, none of this makes sense 213 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: scientifically over decades and decades, but anyway, that those were 214 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: the two opposing forces in research at that time. For me, 215 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: what what was amazing and I could kind of catch 216 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: myself doing it but not entirely, is that there's almost 217 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: a force yield that is set up for anyone in 218 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 1: the in the area, in in reach of it when 219 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: that is a strong belief that this is what is happening, 220 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: and we're trying hard to prove that this is what 221 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 1: is happening, and that is happening all over the world. 222 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: And we have evidence of what Bud called evidence would 223 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: be people sending him um snapshots of mark on their body, 224 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: whether it was a scar or a bruise or whatever. 225 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: And John knew that those wouldn't those would not be 226 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: taken well as evidence. You know, it's not something you 227 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:51,239 Speaker 1: gather first person. There's there's no there's no guard on 228 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: the chain of custody, none of that. So um things 229 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 1: that Bud and Dave considered to be it is, I 230 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: did not, And but that didn't stop me from being 231 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: pulled over into that that sphere of strangeness is all 232 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: I could say, strangeness and felt like it was paranormal. 233 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: It felt like these stories that I was videotaping, not 234 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: just what Bud was telling me, but what I was 235 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 1: hearing and putting on tape, that there was enough there, 236 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: enough similarities between the stories that you had to pay attention. 237 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 1: And at some point I remember thinking when I was 238 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: shooting with Bud, we were on Cape Cod and um, 239 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: a man I didn't know had called in and was 240 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: talking to him. And I walked through the room and 241 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: I heard Bud say, did they come through the wall 242 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: this time too? And when I thought about it a 243 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: few minutes later, I thought, I didn't even break a sweat, 244 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: I didn't even jump when he said that. I just 245 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 1: accepted that's how it happens. And you know, when when 246 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: that happens to you, you need you know, you need 247 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: you know, you need to put your guard up even more. 248 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 1: And I would always always ask him skeptical questions. That's 249 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: really interesting. Did he welcome sort of skeptical questions or 250 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: was that was that seen as uh sort of questioning 251 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: his work or authority or what have you. Yes, Um, 252 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: he was good with me in the beginning. Um. He 253 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: wanted me to see what he saw and UM again 254 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: offered all of the you know, tape recordings over what 255 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: a twenty someome year period and for me that we're 256 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 1: open to my inspection, my listening. Um. But he wanted 257 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: me to be able to ask questions on camera because 258 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: that's where some of the best most spontaneous material happens, 259 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 1: is when you're just going through your day and you 260 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: pick up the camera and I start to ask him 261 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: about the phone call that had just happened in the 262 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 1: Cape Cod house and you know, he tells me about it. 263 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: It's good stuff. I mean, I'm a filmmaker, and you know, 264 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: I had a really articulate, no wacko husband who was 265 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: telling me things I've never heard about. So it was 266 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: worth listening and I did strange arrivals will return in 267 00:22:51,760 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: a moment so maybe you can tell me a little 268 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: bit about the Linda Quartill case, because that that that 269 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: seems to be sort of the height of things or 270 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: a turning point. No, I think, um, the Linda Quartilla 271 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: case was his big case. And one of the things 272 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: that why the Linda Quartilla case was such a huge 273 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: case for him is that it pushed new boundaries. I mean, 274 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 1: the thing is, there's almost no money in working the 275 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: UFO research field unless you're doing regular gigs like standard 276 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: Stan Friedman, who was a friend of mine, and you know, 277 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: he knew how to market himself and he got gigs 278 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 1: all over the world actually, so he kept a modest 279 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: income coming in. Bud didn't do that. His The way 280 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 1: he worked was to have really strong concept in missing time, 281 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: and then he was only interested in cases after that 282 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: that broke new ground. So um, the the case in 283 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: Intruders broke all sorts of new ground in terms of 284 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 1: him claiming to have discovered patterns. Um. I guess in 285 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: that case it would be the breeding pattern of abductees 286 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 1: who would feel they had once been um their eggs 287 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: had been taken or the sperm had been harvested, and 288 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: years later they'll be taken aboard a craft and they 289 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: will see what they believe are their children, half alien, 290 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: half you. And and you know, it began to get 291 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: so weird to me that I would push back even 292 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: more on how that knowledge came to be. But the 293 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: deal was and I would go when we were thinking 294 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: of writing a book together based on my science background 295 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 1: and looking at cutting edge aspects of science that would 296 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 1: possibly illuminate the UFO phenomenon. When we were doing that, 297 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: we went to talk to a couple of editors at 298 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: publishing houses and what they said categorically, don't come I 299 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: mean this was in what this must have been the 300 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: early two thousand's. They said, don't come back unless you 301 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 1: have a brand new, never seen before idea um for 302 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: a U phone book. So the push is always for new, bigger, better, 303 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: more outlandish. And I would say that Dave and Bud 304 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: definitely delivered on that in each of their books. So 305 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: that's where the pressure was coming was from from the 306 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: need to publish and the fact that you just can't 307 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: publish the same book again. Well that and to have 308 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: any any uh kind of standing in the lecture circuit 309 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 1: UFO lecture circuit, you have to have new material, new 310 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: cases to present. Always people don't want to come there 311 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: and you know, pay to hear the same thing they've 312 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: heard before, so they were always he was wanting cases 313 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 1: that would further develop the narrative, or as he might say, 314 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: cases that would illuminate it further. Yeah, it's interesting, and 315 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: you know, you know what to respond to this, but 316 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's similar time period to the Satanic Panic, 317 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: which was also absert with with people being used as breeders, 318 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: which I hadn't really and that was I started reading 319 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: that literature down in my studio maybe sometime into knowing Bud, 320 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: maybe about three or four years into it. And then 321 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 1: came the multiple personality um debacle with women they're mainly 322 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 1: women therapist kind of taking women under their under their 323 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: wing and helping to develop their own narratives of having 324 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 1: you know, ten, twelve, fifteen different personalities within one body 325 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 1: and um, you know, whether that phenomenon has any basis 326 00:27:54,680 --> 00:28:00,040 Speaker 1: in reality, perhaps, but it's extraordinarily rare. There was a 327 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: creation factor here. The therapists were creating the very thing 328 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: that they wanted to study, and the Satanic, the ritual 329 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 1: abuse the phenomenon was part of that at about the 330 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: same time it came along and was written about beautifully 331 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: by a New Yorker writer, Lawrence Wright. And I started 332 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: reading all of that information and couldn't really get Bud 333 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: to read or take any of it seriously, but I 334 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: felt it should be. It was new information coming into 335 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: our understanding of how people developed their own internal narratives, 336 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: and that there were some very, very big red flags 337 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: dropped in that research. And Bud considered anything like that 338 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: to be the work of skeptics. And his favorite word 339 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: was debunker, and it was a word used a great 340 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: scorn and derision, and you know, so he quickly let 341 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: me know that debunking would not be acceptable in his household. 342 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: So I was. I just kept asking questions. It was 343 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: all I could do. And when we got to my 344 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: documenting the Linda Quartila case, Linda was in and out 345 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: of our house often, and there was alien abduction support 346 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: groups in the front room somewhat regular basis, although I 347 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: guess they'd been doing that in the eighties and early 348 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: nineties before I got there. But that's where I first 349 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: met Linda, was at an alien abduction support meeting, and 350 00:29:53,720 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: what I began to understand from attending those meetings is 351 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: that if you were new to the field, you could 352 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: pick up everything you needed to know about being a 353 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: standard abductee just by going to those support group meetings 354 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: and by talking with other abductees. They would lay out 355 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: certain patterns and other people would second that and they 356 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: would say, oh, that happened to me too, And Bud 357 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: would guide the discussions, and I was I did call 358 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: him on this in terms of support group meetings. I said, 359 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: why don't you use an a a kind of model 360 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: where there is no leader, where the witnesses, the abductees 361 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: themselves could guide the discussion and instead of you leading it. 362 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: And my objection to his leading the discussion was that 363 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: he would tell people about brand new cases and the 364 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: things he was most interested in pursuing. Well, this is 365 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: a very tight group of very bright, sensitive, artistically driven people. 366 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: I respected them a lot, and I did not think 367 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: they were crazy. Not once. Um. I mean there were 368 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: some of the margins, but they weren't part of that group. 369 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:33,479 Speaker 1: But they were people to whom something was happening, and 370 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: that fascinated me and still should fascinate researchers. Um, if 371 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: it's you know, psychosomatic, if it's being if the narrative 372 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 1: is being developed entirely inside individuals. And then they meet 373 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: in some sort of a place like a support group, 374 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: and they began to share things they've picked stup from 375 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: television series which were everywhere, or from movies, from reading 376 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: Bud's books. They came with a hell of a lot 377 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: of knowledge about what other people were saying about their experiences. 378 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: They were not, you know, blank slates. They came in 379 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: knowing the material. And when you're working with that psychologically, 380 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: you know, research shows there's a great deal of spread 381 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: um of terms and means and and thoughts and patterns 382 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: between the researcher himself and the people who have come 383 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: to him for help um and between each other. They 384 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: would pass ideas back and forth, and Bud by either 385 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: pumping on them those ideas, you know, like somebody had found, um, 386 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: cherry blossoms on the floor of her bedroom after an 387 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: abduction that led to Bud confirming that that meant an 388 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: alien had come through the window and pulled some branches 389 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: in on the way in, et cetera. So it was 390 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: to me it was fairly easy to see how a 391 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: researcher without really careful careful protocols and without being peer reviewed, 392 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: that such a researcher could intentionally or totally unintentionally creating 393 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: the story of what had happened to all of these people, 394 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: and they would often welcome it because the story of 395 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: being abducted by aliens explained what was dysfunctional in each 396 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: of their lives. And you know, just as you and 397 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: I have some things that don't work as well as 398 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,760 Speaker 1: we wished. If you found an idea, if you found 399 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:19,399 Speaker 1: some concept that explained why you felt uneasy at night, 400 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: or why you were really mournful at a particular time 401 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: of year, or why bright lights in the sky startled you, 402 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: or it's just one thing after another, or why the 403 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: person was sexually not functional, why the person didn't get 404 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: ahead in their own chosen career, And those were all 405 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: real concerns that people had. So how did this stall end? 406 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:58,320 Speaker 1: Pretty badly actually and really kind of tragically. Um the 407 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 1: the Linda Quartilla story and then the stories that the 408 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: cases that were coming to bud then like Jim Mortlauro, 409 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: who you know, the crowd of people online had supported 410 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: for quite a while until his various um lies and 411 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: hoaxes and untrue stories of what he had done and 412 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: experience until the truth of those stories began to come out. 413 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: Um many people supported this one guy who was was 414 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: next big case. And that was the uniqueness of Jim 415 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: Morte Lauro's case would be that it was the first 416 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: time an entire group of physicians upstate New York were 417 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: honed in on this phenomenon, had a number of patients. 418 00:35:54,760 --> 00:36:00,040 Speaker 1: They the as Jim told Bud, had a number of 419 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: patients in this in this clinical study of abductees, and 420 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: Bud definitely wanted to be part of that study, and 421 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: he had help from a new protege, Leslie Kane, and 422 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 1: she pushed wholeheartedly to follow Jim's story. And a number 423 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: of people who were on Bud's board of advisors, which 424 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: was that board of advisors, was amazing group of very 425 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: diverse people, but smart people. A medical writer, an engineer, 426 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: someone in marketing, a musician and astronomer. They were strong, 427 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: smart people who had hoped that Bud was going to 428 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: share what he learned about how to research this phenomenon 429 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: another or when was a psycho psychologist. So there were 430 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: people with a broad enough background that if he had 431 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: allowed them to guide his research. It would have been 432 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: so much better for everybody. But he would not permit 433 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:27,360 Speaker 1: any oversight of his cases, and of course Dave Jacobs 434 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: didn't either. Each of those two men worked entirely on 435 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:37,839 Speaker 1: their own. Occasionally they would have someone come sit in 436 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 1: on a session or two, but you know that's that 437 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily the standard way they did things when that 438 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 1: person was there watching. It's just that but had a 439 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: very strong tool he might have used, which was the 440 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: the the Intruders Foundation Advisory Board, and they could have 441 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:10,400 Speaker 1: prevented him from going so far into the weeds with 442 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: the Linda Cortilia case, with the Gym more Laro case, 443 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 1: it kind of it kind of fell apart just because 444 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: of sort of credulousness to people who were, you know, 445 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: became clear were hoaxers. Yes, I think that a lot 446 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: of it went that way, um, but also because I 447 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: was finding out things about the case in witness that 448 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: we're um kind of knocking the breath out of me. 449 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: There was so much cherry picking that Bud did. I mean, 450 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 1: this was a case from thirty years ago and it's 451 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 1: still right now today, is still not completely vetted or 452 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: debunked by anyone who knows the material, and I'm I'm 453 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 1: on a memoir about that period, and maybe your interview 454 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: will help me get jump started back into finishing it. 455 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: But um, there was so much material there that was 456 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 1: not included. Things that let's say Linda meeting with the 457 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: Pope and the Pope was knew all about her story 458 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: and abducted her in a in one of the popemobiles 459 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,240 Speaker 1: or a black car to take her down to wherever 460 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 1: he was staying when he came to visit in yes, 461 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 1: the early nineties. And you know, Bud did not in 462 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: include that story because it was pretty over the top 463 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,879 Speaker 1: that Linda Courtilla was invited by the Pope to come 464 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 1: be the ambassador to extraterrestrials and that she would have 465 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: to live at the Vatican and leave New York City 466 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: blah blah blah. So there were, you know, others that 467 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 1: were equally outside the boundaries of common sense that I 468 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 1: do have documented. When you see how many things are 469 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: left out, and makes you doubt the things that are included. 470 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 1: So then I went in and started looking at the drawings, 471 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: which were some of Bud's best evidence, drawings of the 472 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 1: scene where Linda was seen eventually by twenty three witnesses. 473 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: Bud's books says twenty three witnesses to her being pulled 474 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,879 Speaker 1: of a what is it, fourteen story apartment building and 475 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,240 Speaker 1: pulled up a beam of light into a hovering UFO. 476 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 1: And that was late November of right by the Brooklyn Bridge, 477 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 1: pretty much a hot spot for Manhattan early hours of 478 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 1: the morning or all hours of the day at night. 479 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:31,839 Speaker 1: And he he has you know, he interviewed most of 480 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,279 Speaker 1: the most of the witnesses, the people he called the 481 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 1: witnesses UM, although he never met two key witnesses who 482 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: were the government agents, Richard and Dan, who were escorting 483 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 1: a member of the United Nations International staff. They were 484 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,800 Speaker 1: escorting him down to a heliport in Lower Manhattan that 485 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: night and their car was stall old by the UFOs 486 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,840 Speaker 1: power train, as you know, as the part of the 487 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: story that that's what always happens. And so a person 488 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: whose name but didn't use, but it was Perez the 489 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 1: quare as the UM acting as the Secretary of the 490 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:24,280 Speaker 1: United Nations at the time that he was the dignitary 491 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:30,320 Speaker 1: who was accompanied by to either Secret Service or UM 492 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:35,920 Speaker 1: other US security agencies, and by the two of them. 493 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: So Bud did interview to quay Are in an airport 494 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 1: at some point Um and kind of took the negatives 495 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:51,319 Speaker 1: that he got there as being positives. I don't know, 496 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,239 Speaker 1: It's it's a case of someone who wants so badly 497 00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: to prove this is but I'm talking about he wanted 498 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 1: so badly to prove what he believed to be happening. 499 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 1: He wanted to prove that it was actually happening and 500 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 1: that he had evidence. What in Bud and like David Jacobs, 501 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,839 Speaker 1: what did they think was sort of ultimately going on? 502 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: Like why why were the aliens putting in tracking devices 503 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:31,719 Speaker 1: and trying to get you know, against reproductive data or 504 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 1: experimentation or whatever? Was our theory? Yes, and it was 505 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 1: one they defended to the hilt. The beings who were 506 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:50,000 Speaker 1: coming to us either needed our resources, which we're Bud 507 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:58,400 Speaker 1: certainly believed were our humanist resources, our ability to be empathetic, 508 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,319 Speaker 1: our ability to love our children and to love other 509 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,399 Speaker 1: people in our lives and to take care of them. 510 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 1: I mean, Bud was the humanist to bubble all things. 511 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:14,760 Speaker 1: He really was, and that's the quality I loved in him. Um, 512 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:22,880 Speaker 1: he is understanding that the aliens were coming to um 513 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:27,239 Speaker 1: either take our culture, take our the privacy of our 514 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:33,480 Speaker 1: minds away from us, by using telepathy, to take the 515 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:38,760 Speaker 1: sanctity of our independent personal bodies, to take that away 516 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:43,880 Speaker 1: from us too, by you know, taking German material like 517 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 1: eggs and sperm and creating alien beings that would be 518 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 1: part them and part us. And I can tell you 519 00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:58,359 Speaker 1: they believed this so firmly that sitting over dinner one night, 520 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 1: Jacobs would that Jacobs would rent um a house on 521 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:07,080 Speaker 1: the Keep, a few houses down from our house in 522 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: wealth Leet, And over dinner one night, Um, Dave Jacob 523 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:18,120 Speaker 1: said to Bud, Bud, you and I are the only 524 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,520 Speaker 1: two people on the planet who really know what's going 525 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:26,400 Speaker 1: on with the alias. Yeah. I kind of did a 526 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 1: double take, and I said, the only two people on 527 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 1: the planet. How how is that? Isn't that kind of 528 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,520 Speaker 1: a dangerous way to think about something that you don't 529 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: really know for sure? But they believed they did know 530 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:49,040 Speaker 1: for sure. So it's hard not to believe that there 531 00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: would be moments where either one of these researchers would 532 00:45:54,160 --> 00:46:00,920 Speaker 1: realize how much they had manipulated the the subjects, the abductees, 533 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,960 Speaker 1: and their narratives. They're written narratives they had to have 534 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:12,120 Speaker 1: known that at some point. Wow, this is this has 535 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:16,680 Speaker 1: been really great. Listen to all this. It's so interesting 536 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:21,040 Speaker 1: and I think sort of gives greater depth to what 537 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:24,000 Speaker 1: I've been sort of interested and kind of thinking about 538 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,280 Speaker 1: as I've been going through this whole process of making 539 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,680 Speaker 1: this UH podcast series. Are there other things that we 540 00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: haven't discussed that you think are important to get across? Well, 541 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: the fact that they always said, these researchers always said 542 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:48,560 Speaker 1: that they never led the subjects, They never you know, 543 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 1: walked them into some sort of a hypnosis trap. But 544 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 1: what I knew from being right underneath doing my work 545 00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:01,839 Speaker 1: in writing and in video product should right underneath an 546 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,720 Speaker 1: old wooden floor next to Bud's phone, I could hear 547 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,960 Speaker 1: the way that he did intake. First of all, Peter 548 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:14,160 Speaker 1: Robbins would be there as his assistant and would read 549 00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:19,040 Speaker 1: the letters. Is how things came in originally, and Peter 550 00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,600 Speaker 1: would read through them and he'd write abductee on the 551 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 1: front or he'd write probable abductee on the front, and 552 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:32,960 Speaker 1: then that person would be mailed a kit of information 553 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:37,799 Speaker 1: about the abduction phenomenon and then told in the kit 554 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:42,920 Speaker 1: to probably be best to avoid reading the literature in 555 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:47,640 Speaker 1: the field, so the new possible abductee would be sent 556 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,920 Speaker 1: as kit of material. And I think it varied sometimes 557 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:55,560 Speaker 1: when it was information about, you know, the abduction phenomenon. 558 00:47:56,120 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 1: And also the people who were calling Bud knew enough 559 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,960 Speaker 1: about the field to call a top researcher in the field. 560 00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 1: They had also often read one, two, or three of 561 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:16,360 Speaker 1: his books previously, and they've watched movies, they watched documentaries 562 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,719 Speaker 1: he had been in, I mean, he was appearing on 563 00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 1: the Phil Donahue Show, on the Oprah Winfrey Show, on 564 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 1: Canadian you know, talk shows. He was all over during 565 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:35,759 Speaker 1: that time. And so when when people would first call 566 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:40,280 Speaker 1: and begin talking to him, he could go on easily 567 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,720 Speaker 1: for an hour with each person over the phone, and 568 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:48,080 Speaker 1: he would often tell them about the cases, the new 569 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,920 Speaker 1: cases that he was working on, and what that the 570 00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,799 Speaker 1: queue that sends to the person on the other end 571 00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,799 Speaker 1: of the phone is that if you want the attention 572 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:05,160 Speaker 1: of this tell television personality named Bud Hopkins, you might 573 00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:11,160 Speaker 1: do well consciously or unconsciously. Two have your own memories 574 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,799 Speaker 1: that were similar to the ones he was interested in. 575 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:19,800 Speaker 1: And that is where the tailoring of tales began long 576 00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:24,760 Speaker 1: before he even met the people. So in that time, 577 00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:29,880 Speaker 1: then people would come into the famous person's house and 578 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,440 Speaker 1: may be, you know, talked with a while, told some 579 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:37,719 Speaker 1: more about cases Bud was interested in, or things that happened, 580 00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:41,719 Speaker 1: and then Bud would put them under hypnosis. You don't 581 00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:46,440 Speaker 1: have to lead anybody under hypnosis after that, they already 582 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:53,640 Speaker 1: know which way to go. And that happened often, and 583 00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:59,000 Speaker 1: it's that pre pre hypnosis session. All of those sessions, 584 00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:03,960 Speaker 1: those contacts is what people on the outside never knew about. 585 00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 1: I mean, when I wrote the article Priests of High 586 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:13,719 Speaker 1: Strangeness in in the Pera Toopia magazine back in two 587 00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:19,480 Speaker 1: thousand and eleven, UM, many of the old time UFO 588 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:24,880 Speaker 1: research has contacted me privately to thank me for putting 589 00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,640 Speaker 1: that out there. He stand was one of them, and 590 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:34,000 Speaker 1: they said, we knew there was something off in this 591 00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:38,640 Speaker 1: research that but and Jacob's were putting out, but we 592 00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:42,040 Speaker 1: didn't know what it was. You know, we only knew 593 00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:47,880 Speaker 1: what he told us about how he researched cases. So 594 00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,400 Speaker 1: it reflects a little bit of the Betty and Barney 595 00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,600 Speaker 1: Hill and that Betty had those dreams that she wrote 596 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:58,319 Speaker 1: down that sort of served as the basis for what 597 00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:03,600 Speaker 1: they talked about hypnotically right. It's really interesting. There's such 598 00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:08,560 Speaker 1: a well, if you're interested in um psychiatry psychology at all, 599 00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:14,520 Speaker 1: the porousness that I think exists between a therapist, which 600 00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:18,399 Speaker 1: but in Dave were de facto therapists for people who 601 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:22,560 Speaker 1: were very troubled over things that they couldn't explain in 602 00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:27,960 Speaker 1: their lives. And there there is a certain resonance that 603 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:33,080 Speaker 1: I personally felt coming from my husband, uh, the resonance 604 00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:38,640 Speaker 1: of his belief. It was an influence on what I 605 00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:43,560 Speaker 1: was able to stay open to hearing. And I watched 606 00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:48,240 Speaker 1: the people come in and they were very deferential to Bud. 607 00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:55,360 Speaker 1: Not many people, you know, question his methods or anything 608 00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:00,479 Speaker 1: like that. And that's where the Board of Advisors might 609 00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:05,440 Speaker 1: have helped enormously if he had allowed them to be 610 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:13,040 Speaker 1: actually trained to do research work that's up stay. Yeah, 611 00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:18,000 Speaker 1: it's just a missed opportunity and a sadness because they eventually, 612 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:24,720 Speaker 1: after um, you know, the things with the Gym Mortal 613 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:30,600 Speaker 1: r O case and few other hoaxes came down the pike. Uh, 614 00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,800 Speaker 1: the advisory committee just said, you know, we can't support 615 00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:39,400 Speaker 1: you going around and speaking at conferences about cases that 616 00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,920 Speaker 1: we believe are not valid, that we believe our hoaxes, 617 00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,719 Speaker 1: and we would like to have one or two of 618 00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:52,160 Speaker 1: our advisory board members work with you on cases. And 619 00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:58,200 Speaker 1: Bud was only willing to give them access to the tapes, 620 00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:00,960 Speaker 1: but he would take a trip to the museum while 621 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,520 Speaker 1: they listened to it. In other words, he would not 622 00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:08,920 Speaker 1: be supervised. Again. It makes me sad because I think 623 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:15,240 Speaker 1: I think this is a valid area for cross disciplinary 624 00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:20,799 Speaker 1: teams to study. Um if if you know reports of 625 00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:28,520 Speaker 1: alien abduction are entirely psychological or people drawing from the 626 00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:32,839 Speaker 1: zeitgeist of the time, we should know about that. We 627 00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:39,879 Speaker 1: should know how how easily people can buy into a 628 00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:45,200 Speaker 1: false narrative or one that appears to explain problems they 629 00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:50,920 Speaker 1: might have, as this one did, and that most people 630 00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:58,520 Speaker 1: themselves won't realize that they're being studied without any scientific method, 631 00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:05,560 Speaker 1: without scientific prote calls, without you know, safeguards on where 632 00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:09,480 Speaker 1: their quote unquote evidence comes from. I have a scene 633 00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:13,280 Speaker 1: that I shot with where but as in the lobby 634 00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:17,040 Speaker 1: of our building. He's opening a big package that has 635 00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:22,200 Speaker 1: an enormous brazier and he's pulling that out. It has 636 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:25,879 Speaker 1: stains on the back, and he describes to me the 637 00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:30,160 Speaker 1: woman he's talked too off and on for years. Um, 638 00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:35,600 Speaker 1: and this woman has sent him her bra after a 639 00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,719 Speaker 1: an event the night before where she believes that she 640 00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:44,360 Speaker 1: was abducted and they were experimenting with some liquid and 641 00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:48,640 Speaker 1: poured it on her back. So she's sending him this brazier. 642 00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:54,520 Speaker 1: And I said, well, what about the chain of custody? Now, 643 00:54:54,600 --> 00:55:01,360 Speaker 1: how do you know this came from the alien abduction event? 644 00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:06,040 Speaker 1: The woman describes, Well, she has no reason to lie. 645 00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:12,000 Speaker 1: And that's that's Dave Jacob's response often too, they have 646 00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:18,360 Speaker 1: no reason to lie. Well, come on, people have thousands 647 00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:23,200 Speaker 1: of reasons to tell whatever story they're telling, and you 648 00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:28,600 Speaker 1: know they're just they're multifaceted, they're complicated, and there is 649 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:32,800 Speaker 1: no way you can say someone has no reason to lie. 650 00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:36,440 Speaker 1: That's not how you judge the truth of an event. 651 00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:57,799 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart Radio and 652 00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:01,520 Speaker 1: Grim and Mild from Aaron Manky. This episode was written 653 00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,640 Speaker 1: and hosted by Toby Boll and produced by Miranda Hawkins 654 00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:08,680 Speaker 1: and Josh Thayne, with executive producers Alex Williams, Matt Frederick, 655 00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:12,440 Speaker 1: and Aaron Mank. Betty Hill was portrayed by Gina Rickike 656 00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:18,160 Speaker 1: Barney Hill was portrayed by Jason Williams. Special thanks to 657 00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,279 Speaker 1: the Milne's Special Collections and Archives at the University of 658 00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:25,520 Speaker 1: New Hampshire, John Horrigan, w y C H thirteen ten 659 00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:29,240 Speaker 1: a m. In Norwich, Connecticut, John White, and David O'Leary, 660 00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:33,759 Speaker 1: the executive producer of the History Channel's dramatic series Project 661 00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:36,640 Speaker 1: blue Book. Learn more about the show over at Grimm 662 00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:40,200 Speaker 1: and mile dot com. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, 663 00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,880 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 664 00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:45,320 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.