1
00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,280
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, a production

2
00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,400
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm

3
00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,400
Speaker 1: Holly Fried. We talked about Charlotte Cooper Sterry this week

4
00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,480
Speaker 1: so much tennis tennis championship, tennis champion. I said that

5
00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:24,279
Speaker 1: one time while recording too and had to do it

6
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,840
Speaker 1: over when I called her a championship instead of a champion.

7
00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,760
Speaker 1: And a weird coincidence of timing. This episode is not

8
00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:36,400
Speaker 1: coming out immediately adjacent to Wimbledon, but I did research

9
00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,720
Speaker 1: and write it as Wimbledon was happening, which was not

10
00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,200
Speaker 1: planned at all, and we just had like a weird

11
00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,560
Speaker 1: logistical situation where the actual episode is coming out at

12
00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,519
Speaker 1: a two be determined date in the future, so you

13
00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,240
Speaker 1: all will be in the listening audience learning about it.

14
00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, probably shortly after we have learned what

15
00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,360
Speaker 1: date the episode will wind up coming out. It's a

16
00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,760
Speaker 1: little mystery at the moment. I did go down a

17
00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:09,360
Speaker 1: big rabbit hole about the descriptions of her as deaf,

18
00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,720
Speaker 1: because so many articles about her that I read were

19
00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:18,880
Speaker 1: all similarly brief. They all had the same detail of

20
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,560
Speaker 1: the age being twenty six and the description being deaf,

21
00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:28,840
Speaker 1: but like no clear indication of where that information had

22
00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:30,399
Speaker 1: come from, and the fact that it was like the

23
00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,360
Speaker 1: same year in all of them. This has to have

24
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:39,920
Speaker 1: come from somewhere. And we've definitely had situations on the

25
00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,440
Speaker 1: show where there was some particular detail that wound up

26
00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,920
Speaker 1: in an article somewhere, and then that wound up in

27
00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,640
Speaker 1: all of the other articles, and so I just I

28
00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:50,360
Speaker 1: went down this rabbit hole trying to find it out,

29
00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,920
Speaker 1: trying to get more detail. Even the couple of sources

30
00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,600
Speaker 1: that described it as being the result of an infection,

31
00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:01,160
Speaker 1: I don't actually know if that was actual information from

32
00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:03,480
Speaker 1: somewhere or if it was an assumption on the part

33
00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,840
Speaker 1: of the writer, because there are various infections that can

34
00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,520
Speaker 1: cause hearing loss. And again, I think today a lot

35
00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,920
Speaker 1: of people, especially outside the deaf community, when they hear

36
00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:22,120
Speaker 1: or read the word death, think of like a total

37
00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,880
Speaker 1: or near total absence of hearing. That's not necessarily the

38
00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,519
Speaker 1: case with everybody, but I think a lot of people

39
00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,639
Speaker 1: expect the word deaf to mean like a near total

40
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,560
Speaker 1: absence of hearing, while heart of hearing might mean a

41
00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:41,399
Speaker 1: different degree of hearing loss. At the time she was living,

42
00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,000
Speaker 1: though there was kind of more of a spectrum in

43
00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:49,480
Speaker 1: common use, and I just really don't know what specifically

44
00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,360
Speaker 1: that meant for her, And you know, her nephew, in

45
00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,320
Speaker 1: a book about Wimbledon even was a little I don't

46
00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,840
Speaker 1: want to say evasive, because that has a kind of

47
00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:01,960
Speaker 1: take of trying to hide something. But like even what

48
00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,799
Speaker 1: he said was not particularly exact, because he was like, well,

49
00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,880
Speaker 1: I think I'm right in saying that she couldn't hear

50
00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:12,400
Speaker 1: the ball, which sounds like it probably wasn't something they

51
00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,920
Speaker 1: discussed in the family much either, Right. Yeah, So I

52
00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,280
Speaker 1: have a lot of curiosity about that, just because you know,

53
00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:26,800
Speaker 1: it's important to talk about people in history and you know,

54
00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,440
Speaker 1: their actual lived experiences, and I just don't have a

55
00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,840
Speaker 1: lot of information about it. Weird thing I stumbled across

56
00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,800
Speaker 1: in some of the research in the part about the

57
00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,520
Speaker 1: history of tennis, when we were talking about court tennis

58
00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:46,600
Speaker 1: and lawn tennis. Real tennis, Yeah, real tennis. That sort

59
00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,280
Speaker 1: of has a, you know, an implication that lawn tennis

60
00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,480
Speaker 1: is the fake tennis. And I feel like some of

61
00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,880
Speaker 1: the people writing about it today it almost felt like

62
00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,560
Speaker 1: that was their opinion on it, because I would read

63
00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,760
Speaker 1: some depictions that were like, court tennis is much faster

64
00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,640
Speaker 1: paced than lawn tennis and much more physicality required on

65
00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,240
Speaker 1: the part of players. It just came off as sounding

66
00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:21,160
Speaker 1: really snobby to me, almost of being like court tennis

67
00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,400
Speaker 1: is clearly the superior sport to lawn tennis, and the

68
00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,560
Speaker 1: tone of it. Not everything sounded that way, but there

69
00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,440
Speaker 1: were a few things where I was like, this sport

70
00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:35,239
Speaker 1: sort of strikes me as being a little exclusionary, right,

71
00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,800
Speaker 1: But I think that's a common behavior, right, Like I

72
00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,159
Speaker 1: don't love it, but there are always people who like

73
00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,760
Speaker 1: whatever they're into, they need to prove that it's the

74
00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:49,960
Speaker 1: most best one sure, Like you know, we I have

75
00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,240
Speaker 1: run into I love rabbits. I think they're rad pets,

76
00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,960
Speaker 1: but I remember meeting somebody at a party who was

77
00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,120
Speaker 1: like really into their rabbits, to the point that you

78
00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,320
Speaker 1: couldn't say I have a cat without them running over

79
00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,960
Speaker 1: and injecting into the conversation to tell you why you

80
00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,159
Speaker 1: should have a rabbit and it's a way better animal.

81
00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,400
Speaker 1: And it's like they're both cool. Do you love your rabbit? Cool?

82
00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:15,599
Speaker 1: I also love my catcer whatever anybody has, right, And

83
00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,400
Speaker 1: I don't know why there is that tendency for some

84
00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:22,360
Speaker 1: people to want their thing to be the most one.

85
00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure I have done it at some point in

86
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,000
Speaker 1: time as well, when I was younger, I hope. But

87
00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:33,000
Speaker 1: I think that's probably what feeds those kinds of narratives

88
00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,600
Speaker 1: where people really want to assert that if you're not

89
00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,839
Speaker 1: doing this, you're not doing the best one. Right, Yeah,

90
00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,680
Speaker 1: just do what you like. It's fun. Yeah, that seems great.

91
00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,960
Speaker 1: I also would love to know about more about Charlotte

92
00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,240
Speaker 1: Cooper sterries, like personal life beyond tennis, because vast majority

93
00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,880
Speaker 1: of what we talked about today was about tennis, and

94
00:05:54,920 --> 00:06:00,440
Speaker 1: she did have a life beyond tennis. She had kids, Yeah,

95
00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:02,920
Speaker 1: and you know, it's clear that the whole family was

96
00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:07,279
Speaker 1: really involved in athletics in general and tennis specifically, but

97
00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,279
Speaker 1: like you know, it's not the only thing in her life.

98
00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,479
Speaker 1: It does seem like she was really well liked and

99
00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:14,760
Speaker 1: well respected and people thought she was a great player

100
00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,120
Speaker 1: and also like a great sport, like a kind and

101
00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,680
Speaker 1: respectful person to be sharing the court with. But that

102
00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,760
Speaker 1: really know nothing beyond that, Like, right, the one clue

103
00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,320
Speaker 1: that we have is her basically saying, like, you know

104
00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,520
Speaker 1: how to train year round, It's fine, you could do

105
00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:37,880
Speaker 1: other stuff, enjoy your winter, whatever you want to do,

106
00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,680
Speaker 1: which I do love. Yeah, yeah, just hang out. You

107
00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:44,719
Speaker 1: can play other stuff if you want. You don't have to.

108
00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:50,760
Speaker 1: If ever, there were a great example of work life balance, right,

109
00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,440
Speaker 1: just the casual like, no, I know, just take the

110
00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,080
Speaker 1: winner off. It's fine. I'm good. Sometimes I play a

111
00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,680
Speaker 1: little little something something to keep my eye moving, but

112
00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,440
Speaker 1: that's fine. I like how she seemed almost embarrassed to

113
00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,960
Speaker 1: mention ping pong as an option. Ping Pong's crapy of

114
00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:11,720
Speaker 1: things to play. Yeah, I uh, I've never been particularly

115
00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:17,200
Speaker 1: good at things that required that style of like hand

116
00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:21,680
Speaker 1: eye coordination. I never played tennis because I associated it

117
00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,520
Speaker 1: with people that would not like me growing up. Okay,

118
00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,320
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like, yeah, I was clearly

119
00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,360
Speaker 1: not a herd that was really into my particular flavor

120
00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,760
Speaker 1: of weird and like, that's cool. You have that, I'm

121
00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,440
Speaker 1: gonna go do. Yes, Not that I was ever, Like

122
00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,000
Speaker 1: I wish I could have played tennis. It just never

123
00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,320
Speaker 1: shook out that way, right right. It does seem like

124
00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,000
Speaker 1: her family was pretty comfortable. It's the impression I got anyway.

125
00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,240
Speaker 1: She also, though as far as I know, only ever

126
00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,360
Speaker 1: had two rackets. There was the good racket for playing

127
00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,560
Speaker 1: in good weather, and there was the not as good

128
00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,320
Speaker 1: racket to play when it rained. I love she would

129
00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,760
Speaker 1: mess up her good racket. I love that too. I

130
00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,360
Speaker 1: love that as a maximalist that buys twenty seven of everything.

131
00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:09,200
Speaker 1: I can't imagine it, but I love it. Yeah. I

132
00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,720
Speaker 1: also love the pictures of her and what she played

133
00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:17,200
Speaker 1: tennis in because it really was skirts all the way down,

134
00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:24,640
Speaker 1: always to the ground, and you know, like full long sleeves.

135
00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:26,720
Speaker 1: There's a bunch of there's a picture of her in particular,

136
00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,840
Speaker 1: she's got a necktie on. Love. I love it. I

137
00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:35,319
Speaker 1: love all of it. Random side note from this episode

138
00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:43,880
Speaker 1: is that there is one mention of Martina Navratilova. Do

139
00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:48,679
Speaker 1: you remember a special that was on Comedy Central and

140
00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:53,360
Speaker 1: like the nineties called out There? I think it was

141
00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,560
Speaker 1: called out There. I think they were out there and

142
00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,959
Speaker 1: out there too, And it was like a comedy special,

143
00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:06,079
Speaker 1: like specifically of gay and lesbian performers, And there was

144
00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:12,600
Speaker 1: a singer named Frank who sang a song about Martina Navertalova. No,

145
00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,280
Speaker 1: somehow I miss this was all of this, so uh yeah,

146
00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,920
Speaker 1: So it was a song about Martina Navratilova, including spelling

147
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:30,720
Speaker 1: out Martina Navratalova letter by letter. I don't know. Anytime

148
00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,600
Speaker 1: I think of Martina and Avertelova, I get that song

149
00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,720
Speaker 1: in my head. See I think of her now on Bravo.

150
00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,079
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, because her wife is a real housewife. Oh

151
00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,160
Speaker 1: I never knew that. Yeah. And I am an aficionado

152
00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,640
Speaker 1: of trashy television, which I put all Bravo shows under.

153
00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:51,800
Speaker 1: I am not calling anyone on them trash. I'm just

154
00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,960
Speaker 1: saying that is not high brow entertainment. And that's how

155
00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,880
Speaker 1: although I don't watch that one regularly, that one is Miami,

156
00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,280
Speaker 1: and I don't keep up with it. Right, It's not

157
00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,960
Speaker 1: a thing that is in my sphere of knowledge in

158
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,840
Speaker 1: any way, it is in mind because that is where

159
00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,440
Speaker 1: I really started doing. You are actually indirectly the cause

160
00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,720
Speaker 1: of why I got into Bravo. Really, here's why. Okay,

161
00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,600
Speaker 1: Because when I first started working at How Stuff Works,

162
00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:20,560
Speaker 1: and you were the site director and I was the

163
00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:25,559
Speaker 1: tech editor, right, and I would just find my brain

164
00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:27,679
Speaker 1: broken by the end of the day because often there

165
00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:30,040
Speaker 1: would be like an article about a technology that I

166
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,240
Speaker 1: didn't know jack about, and I would have to learn

167
00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,080
Speaker 1: enough about it to be able to edit the article

168
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,800
Speaker 1: and fact check it, and so by the end of

169
00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,320
Speaker 1: the day. There was one day in particular where my

170
00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,840
Speaker 1: husband was like, you are watching a lot of trashy

171
00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:53,520
Speaker 1: reality TV lately, and I was like, Babe, I had

172
00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:57,400
Speaker 1: to learn how telemetry works today, and right now I

173
00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,120
Speaker 1: would just like to watch very pre lyedged, pretty people

174
00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,640
Speaker 1: yell at each other over petty problems because that's about

175
00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,440
Speaker 1: what my brain can fathom. And he was like, okay,

176
00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,600
Speaker 1: And ever since that he's been like, I get it completely.

177
00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:11,160
Speaker 1: Like at the end of the day he's like, do

178
00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,200
Speaker 1: you need to watch some garbage? And I'll be like, yeah,

179
00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:19,920
Speaker 1: kind of right, yeah, yeah. And that's why I know

180
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:24,240
Speaker 1: who's on every Bravo show. Yep, I know. I don't.

181
00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,720
Speaker 1: I'm like, do we even have Bravo at my house?

182
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:32,920
Speaker 1: I don't actually know which has come in handy. I

183
00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,440
Speaker 1: don't remember why. There was another time where you know,

184
00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,440
Speaker 1: we used to peek behind the curtain. The way how

185
00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,640
Speaker 1: stuff works used to work was that like you would

186
00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,120
Speaker 1: as an editor, as a copy editor, get the stuff,

187
00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,000
Speaker 1: assign it to writers h it would come back, you

188
00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,280
Speaker 1: would copy edit it. You would also hand it to

189
00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,880
Speaker 1: another editor for an eyeball pass right, and then that

190
00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:57,520
Speaker 1: would make sure a lot of eyes were on and

191
00:11:57,559 --> 00:11:59,840
Speaker 1: you would catch things. And one of our other editors, I,

192
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,640
Speaker 1: I don't remember why another housewife had come up on

193
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,800
Speaker 1: an article that was not specifically about them, but I

194
00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,040
Speaker 1: was like, that's not how you spell her name, and

195
00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,000
Speaker 1: it was like she just happened to have an odd

196
00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,080
Speaker 1: spelling of a common name. The other editor was like,

197
00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,160
Speaker 1: I never in a million years would have caught that,

198
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:27,960
Speaker 1: and I'm like, yeah, you're not watching garbage. Yeah anyway, Uh,

199
00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:33,280
Speaker 1: I love that little backstory. I have the song about

200
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:38,600
Speaker 1: Martina navratilovas I don't remember. I think that's the thing

201
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,080
Speaker 1: I remember most from those two comedy specials, although I

202
00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,360
Speaker 1: bet if some clip from it showed up in front

203
00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:44,880
Speaker 1: of my face, I would be like, oh that I

204
00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,760
Speaker 1: watched that like twenty five times. Now. I feel like

205
00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,960
Speaker 1: I gotta find that song. I think it's called m

206
00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:57,200
Speaker 1: A Rtna. Well, I mean, I know, Frank, I don't

207
00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:02,360
Speaker 1: know why I wouldn't know that. Well, I'm gonna seek

208
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:09,240
Speaker 1: it out though everybody can go google it. Yeah. So anyway, anyway,

209
00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,480
Speaker 1: tennis sport, I know so little about that. I could

210
00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:19,720
Speaker 1: not bring myself to summarize explanations of how to score it. Yeah,

211
00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,120
Speaker 1: it's always been a little bit of an inscrutable scoring

212
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,520
Speaker 1: system to me. Like, I understand it. I've seen how

213
00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,360
Speaker 1: it scores, but I'm still like, but why Yeah, and

214
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,160
Speaker 1: there's no there's no poor quas for me, and I'll

215
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:44,880
Speaker 1: never know. Yep. We talked about the sad story of

216
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,880
Speaker 1: Richard Dad this week. Yeah, I don't want the sadness

217
00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,840
Speaker 1: of his story to discourage anyone from going looking for

218
00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,640
Speaker 1: his art. It's quite beautiful. And one of the interesting

219
00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,440
Speaker 1: things about his art is that it's kind of like

220
00:13:58,440 --> 00:13:59,760
Speaker 1: what I said at the top of the show. I

221
00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,440
Speaker 1: was fascinated by a painting and was like, I want

222
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,800
Speaker 1: to know about the person that made this painting, not

223
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:06,760
Speaker 1: knowing it was going to lead me down a path

224
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:11,640
Speaker 1: of sad and scary things, right, And that is kind

225
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,960
Speaker 1: of the case of all of his artwork. If you

226
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,320
Speaker 1: look at it, no part of you probably would get

227
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,640
Speaker 1: to the point of I bet someone who was in

228
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,680
Speaker 1: an institution or dealing with mental illness made this art.

229
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,440
Speaker 1: Most of it is very pretty, doesn't cover any of

230
00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,080
Speaker 1: the sort of demonic issues he talked about in his

231
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:38,840
Speaker 1: therapies in his confessions. It's just sort of fascinating that

232
00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,120
Speaker 1: it was almost like a completely separate part of his

233
00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,720
Speaker 1: brain doing that as what was dealing with his other

234
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,080
Speaker 1: issues in the way that I will always look for

235
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,160
Speaker 1: a thing to tickle myself with, even in very dark

236
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:57,200
Speaker 1: and sad things, I find myself wondering about Dad's understanding

237
00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:05,480
Speaker 1: of and grasp of Egyptian religion. Here's why. I mean,

238
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:07,760
Speaker 1: we know, at this period in time right, a lot

239
00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:13,960
Speaker 1: of English and US based people were traveling the world

240
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:20,320
Speaker 1: and coming away with some very incorrect understandings of other cultures.

241
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,040
Speaker 1: Questionable interpretations. Yeah, one hundred percent. But the thing that

242
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,560
Speaker 1: kind of gave me a little just personal chuckle was

243
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,560
Speaker 1: that he had said his his father was the son

244
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:34,560
Speaker 1: at one point, s u n son. And I'm like,

245
00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,280
Speaker 1: but if his father is a Cyrus, that's not the

246
00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,640
Speaker 1: right Egyptian god to be the son. So it was

247
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,120
Speaker 1: just like, I wonder if anybody was like, do you

248
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:50,480
Speaker 1: mean raw? But that's that's just me being silly, because

249
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,120
Speaker 1: I just am and I'm as I said, it's like

250
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,360
Speaker 1: the antidote of La because you know, a Cyrus is

251
00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,800
Speaker 1: about fertility and agriculture. And the afterlife. The afterlife and

252
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,640
Speaker 1: the demon stuff makes a little sense. But as we

253
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,440
Speaker 1: mentioned at the end of the episode, there were like

254
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:10,520
Speaker 1: interlocking religious ideologies here, none of which were really like

255
00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:15,080
Speaker 1: true to their origin state. You know, if you followed

256
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,320
Speaker 1: any of those religions, you'd be like, that's not quite right.

257
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,960
Speaker 1: So it may have just been his brain trying to

258
00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,120
Speaker 1: piece together anything he remembered to make some sort of

259
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,200
Speaker 1: cohesive picture for himself. But that gave me a little

260
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,880
Speaker 1: bit of a chuckle in the darkness. We did not

261
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,120
Speaker 1: talk about Charles Dickens during this, so we mentioned that

262
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:38,080
Speaker 1: Dickens was a friend of his fellows in the click

263
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:43,000
Speaker 1: right and Dickens. Apparently I did not follow this thread

264
00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:47,480
Speaker 1: because I did not have Rabbit whole time. One thing

265
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,080
Speaker 1: right up that I read mentioned that Dickens had, when

266
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,760
Speaker 1: this whole thing went down, kind of done a stand

267
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:56,800
Speaker 1: by me with some of his friends and been like,

268
00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:58,680
Speaker 1: you want to see the place where dad killed his

269
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,880
Speaker 1: dad and shook them to the park. But I don't

270
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,920
Speaker 1: know if that's true or not, but I kind of

271
00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,360
Speaker 1: want to look it up now. We do know that

272
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:13,399
Speaker 1: he visited Bethlem when Dad would have been there, but

273
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,560
Speaker 1: it doesn't appear that it was like to see him

274
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:21,480
Speaker 1: or anything, which is interesting. So I have this whole

275
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,199
Speaker 1: like how much did Dickens know? And was he a

276
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,920
Speaker 1: horrible ghogle about it? Yeah? Do we really know how

277
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,760
Speaker 1: the rest of his family coped with this? It's almost

278
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:34,760
Speaker 1: like you've read my notes and would like to make

279
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:40,080
Speaker 1: a segue for me. Yes and no. So one of

280
00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,600
Speaker 1: the things that comes up in a lot of accounts

281
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,280
Speaker 1: of his life, but which I didn't find a lot

282
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,000
Speaker 1: of additional info on other than the mention and the

283
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:53,960
Speaker 1: numbers change, is that several of his siblings also had

284
00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,520
Speaker 1: some sort of mental break at some point. And so

285
00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,720
Speaker 1: that's one of the things that comes up in a

286
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:05,040
Speaker 1: lot of you know, kind of analyzes that modern doctors

287
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,119
Speaker 1: try to do on Dad is like, you know, is

288
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,960
Speaker 1: this a genetic thing that was going on with their family?

289
00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:15,040
Speaker 1: Was their predisposition? Did they all have the same heavy

290
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:22,520
Speaker 1: metal poisoning? Right? And I didn't find anything that was

291
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:30,080
Speaker 1: like conclusive. Additionally, some things will say like two of

292
00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,600
Speaker 1: his siblings, things will say three of his siblings, Some

293
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,600
Speaker 1: will say all of his brothers but not his sisters.

294
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,080
Speaker 1: Some will say all of his siblings had some sort

295
00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:45,760
Speaker 1: of issue in this area. We're also talking about a

296
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,800
Speaker 1: time when, even though we know that people were pointing

297
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,840
Speaker 1: out like there is something going mentally wrong with Richard,

298
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,240
Speaker 1: there was probably also a lot of brushing under the

299
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:03,240
Speaker 1: rug of people's issues, especially in a family that maybe

300
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,520
Speaker 1: is trying to figure out how to cope with all

301
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,480
Speaker 1: of this and maybe doesn't want to talk about any

302
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,440
Speaker 1: of it anymore, right, keeping in mind that it is

303
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:14,280
Speaker 1: also a family that is grieving from a horrific incident. Sure, yeah,

304
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:18,000
Speaker 1: so I don't know a lot about it, and it

305
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,320
Speaker 1: does seem I mean, in a way, it's very respectful,

306
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,880
Speaker 1: but it leaves us with a lot of question marks. Right,

307
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,359
Speaker 1: The press did seem to leave his family alone, so

308
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 1: I didn't find a lot of I didn't find any

309
00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,720
Speaker 1: commentary in any of the articles I look through where

310
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,679
Speaker 1: they were like, we asked his brother Samuel, who was

311
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 1: the person that was called when all of this started happening,

312
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,160
Speaker 1: one of his older brothers to manage things and help

313
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 1: kind of and step into the role ahead of the

314
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,560
Speaker 1: family at that point, But there were never any quotes

315
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,879
Speaker 1: from anyone in the family, which is interesting. So we

316
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:59,439
Speaker 1: don't know, Yeah, and it breaks my heart. Yeah. I mean,

317
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:04,119
Speaker 1: I'm glad that his art gets recognized, at least to

318
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:09,720
Speaker 1: some degree. I know you cannot really divorce it when

319
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,399
Speaker 1: you're doing an exhibition of it from the circumstance of

320
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,600
Speaker 1: its creation, but I do feel like it would be

321
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,480
Speaker 1: cool and impossible and in its own way not really

322
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,359
Speaker 1: responsible to just have an exhibition of his artwork and

323
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,400
Speaker 1: not talk about any of his stuff, just to see

324
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,480
Speaker 1: how people perceive it and interact with it. Because once,

325
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,280
Speaker 1: you know, once you look at a piece of artwork

326
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,080
Speaker 1: and someone says, this person went mad and killed his

327
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,080
Speaker 1: father and then he painted all this, you're going to

328
00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 1: be like looking for clues. There's a patina of like

329
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,160
Speaker 1: presumption that hits all of it at that point that

330
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,359
Speaker 1: you kind of I'm not faulting anybody for thinking that

331
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,480
Speaker 1: way either. It's natural to do, but I would be curious,

332
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 1: you know, I have only my one experience of that's

333
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 1: a cool painting, but I don't know what anyone else

334
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 1: would do. There's also people have incredibly strong opinions when

335
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:23,160
Speaker 1: someone kills someone else and is later found to have

336
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,320
Speaker 1: done that because of a mental illness, right, the mental

337
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 1: illness was a contributing factor like when I was a kid.

338
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 1: I don't want to go into too much detail, but

339
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 1: there was a mass shooting near where I lived by

340
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:44,120
Speaker 1: someone who was then found not guilty of having committed

341
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:49,879
Speaker 1: that crime because of a mental illness, which, as I

342
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,720
Speaker 1: understand it, then led to the state of North Carolina

343
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:57,920
Speaker 1: like redoing the legal code to not allow that anymore.

344
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,719
Speaker 1: But that has been decades and decades ago, and people

345
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 1: still have enormously strong opinions about how all of that happened,

346
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 1: and feeling like justice was not served right because he

347
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 1: was institutionalized rather than being imprisoned or executed. Right, I

348
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 1: think that is sadly pretty common. Yeah, I mean it

349
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,359
Speaker 1: also right, It's tricky because you don't want to play

350
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 1: into the idea that people dealing with mental illness are

351
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 1: inherently dangerous, because there are people all over the world

352
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 1: all the time dealing with all different levels of their

353
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 1: own mental health evaluations and diagnoses that are in no way,

354
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:55,640
Speaker 1: even like within one thousand miles of being dangerous. Right,

355
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 1: this one, there are some writings that I found. The

356
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 1: way they're older writings, but the way they are penned

357
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: in talking about his father are almost a little victim

358
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 1: blame me because it's like everyone told him his son

359
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 1: was popping off and he was dangerous and he had

360
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 1: delusions that were violent in nature, and he was like,

361
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 1: let's go to the country. And I'm like, nobody won.

362
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 1: Nobody deserves to be brutally murdered. That's just full stop, right.

363
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 1: But two, Like, contextually, again, this is not a time

364
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,880
Speaker 1: when we as a whole, as humanity had a lot

365
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 1: of good tools to deal with someone going through something

366
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: like that. And you know, you also have to consider

367
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: that for a parent who clearly loved his child to

368
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: see them going through something painful and not themselves, that's

369
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,679
Speaker 1: gonna impact your decision making at times, and maybe you

370
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 1: won't make the right decision because you can't know what

371
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: the right decision is. You have to make a best guess.

372
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: I mean, that's life, right. This is Milan Candero's unbearable

373
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 1: lightness of being is that you can only make the

374
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 1: one choice and then you create this outline of what

375
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: you think life is. But yeah, I found that troubling

376
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: that there is a little bit occasionally of like Robert

377
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: Dodd had done the right thing, It's like you don't

378
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 1: know that would have been the right thing, right, You don't.

379
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 1: You're not a prognosticator that can determine what the other

380
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: path would have looked like. It's tricky. It's tricky. There

381
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 1: are only a couple of biographies of Dad, and they're

382
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,199
Speaker 1: hard to get and they're expensive. I went ahead and

383
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: purchased one because I just really wanted it. But I

384
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 1: wish there was more readily available comprehensive stuff, because most

385
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: articles that you find will either talk about like his

386
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: trip and his mental break or his murder or his

387
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: institutionalization and the whole picture, so you end up having

388
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 1: to kind of piece the puzzle together. I got more

389
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 1: in many cases from like looking at old newspaper accounts,

390
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 1: because they would be like, here are his parents, here's

391
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 1: where he was born, here's where and I'm like, oh, yes,

392
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: at last, so yeah, that's interesting. Sorry to be Debbie

393
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: Downer this week, Deborah down But hopefully the Gecko email

394
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: softened the blow Listen, we're gonna get into Halloween soon.

395
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: I make no promises. This could get very dark this year.

396
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. I'm fine, but that's

397
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: clearly where my brain is going at the moment. Hopefully

398
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: that did not ruin your mental state in any way

399
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: or make you feel sad, hopefully just thoughtful and pensive.

400
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: If you have time off this weekend, I hope that

401
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 1: you spend it doing whatever brings you the most joy possible.

402
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: We need more of that in the world. If you

403
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: don't have time off, please seek out joy if you can.

404
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: I hope everyone is kind to one another and makes

405
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: it easy for other people to find joy. And we

406
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 1: will be right back here tomorrow with a classic episode,

407
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: and then on Monday we will have a brand new

408
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: one for you. Stuff you missed in History Class is

409
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit

410
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

411
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.