WEBVTT - From the Vault: Thar She Blows, Part 2

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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<v Speaker 1>name is Robert Lamb.

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<v Speaker 2>And I am Joe McCormick, and it is Saturday. We

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<v Speaker 2>are going into the vault for part two of our

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<v Speaker 2>series The Arsy Blows about whale spout. This one originally

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<v Speaker 2>published April twenty seventh, twenty twenty three. Let's see if

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<v Speaker 2>this whale spout burns our skin off.

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<v Speaker 3>Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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<v Speaker 1>name is Robert Lamb.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two

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<v Speaker 2>in our series on that most charismatic anatomical feature of whales,

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<v Speaker 2>the blowhole, also known as the spiracle or the spout.

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<v Speaker 2>If you are just joining us and you haven't heard

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<v Speaker 2>Part one, on a hot back in the timeline and

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<v Speaker 2>listen to that one first. That's where we go over

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of the basic science of the blowhole. But

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<v Speaker 2>as I mentioned last time, this is a subject that

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<v Speaker 2>I was tempted to look into because there is a

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<v Speaker 2>whole chapter about the spout in the classic nineteenth century

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<v Speaker 2>American novel Moby Dick by Herman Melville. Now If you've

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<v Speaker 2>ever read Moby Dick, you'll probably recall that it is

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<v Speaker 2>not all high speed whale chases and heroics by Queek

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<v Speaker 2>Wegg and mad sermons of vengeance by Captain ahab An.

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<v Speaker 2>Awful lot of the book is made up of chapters

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<v Speaker 2>that could be considered strange, thoughtful little essays on objects

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<v Speaker 2>both technological and biological. Technological subjects like various pieces of

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<v Speaker 2>whaling equipment and things on ships and biological subjects like

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<v Speaker 2>the various parts of a sperm whale's body. And one

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<v Speaker 2>of the latter chapters is called the Fountain. It concerns

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<v Speaker 2>the blowhole, and I thought this was this would make

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<v Speaker 2>an interesting subject for us, in particular because the chapter

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<v Speaker 2>raises a number of practical controversies about the biology of

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<v Speaker 2>whale spouts, as well as some tantalizing but questionable claims

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<v Speaker 2>about sprays of blubbery venom from the hole. Now, among

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<v Speaker 2>the primary controversies that concern the narrator Ishmael in this

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<v Speaker 2>chapter is the question what is it exactly that shoots

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<v Speaker 2>out of the whale's spout? What are the plumes that

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<v Speaker 2>whaling ships used to locate these animals out on the

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<v Speaker 2>high seat, And of course these are still you know,

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<v Speaker 2>people looking for the whale blow? Is still what like

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<v Speaker 2>whale watchers today would use to look for these animals?

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<v Speaker 2>Is it a towering jet of water blasting as if

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<v Speaker 2>from a fire hose, as it is often depicted, I'd say,

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<v Speaker 2>most often depicted, or is it nothing more than gas,

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<v Speaker 2>vapor or mist? And to get us started here, I

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<v Speaker 2>want to read from the this chapter in Moby Dick

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<v Speaker 2>articulating this first question. Are you all right if I

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<v Speaker 2>read this?

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<v Speaker 1>Rob go for it?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, okay, this is what Ishmael says. You have seen

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<v Speaker 2>him spout? Then declare what the spout is? Can you

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<v Speaker 2>not tell water from air? My dear sir, In this

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<v Speaker 2>world it is not so easy to settle these plain things.

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<v Speaker 2>I have ever found your plain things the naughtiest of all.

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<v Speaker 2>And as for this whale spout, you might almost stand

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<v Speaker 2>in it and yet be undecided as to what it is.

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<v Speaker 2>Precisely the central body of it is hidden in the snowy,

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<v Speaker 2>sparkling mist enveloping it. And how can you certainly tell

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<v Speaker 2>whether any water falls from it?

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<v Speaker 1>When?

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<v Speaker 2>Always, when you are close enough to a whale to

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<v Speaker 2>get a close view of his spout, he is in

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<v Speaker 2>a prodigious commotion, the water cascading all around him. And

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<v Speaker 2>if at such times you should think that you really

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<v Speaker 2>perceived drops of moisture in the spout, how do you

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<v Speaker 2>know that they are not merely condensed from its vapor,

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<v Speaker 2>Or how do you know that they are not those

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<v Speaker 2>identical drops superficially lodged in the spout whole fissure which

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<v Speaker 2>is countersunk into the summit of the whale's head. For

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<v Speaker 2>even when tranquility swimming through the midday sea in a

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<v Speaker 2>calm with his elevated humps sun dried as a dromedaries

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<v Speaker 2>in the desert, even then, the whale always carries a

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<v Speaker 2>small basin of water on his head. As under a

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<v Speaker 2>blazing sun, you will sometimes see a cavity in a

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<v Speaker 2>rock filled up with rain.

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<v Speaker 1>Whoaoa, whoa, whoa, this kind of went off the rails. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and here what.

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<v Speaker 2>You do not agree that whales always have a pool

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<v Speaker 2>of water on top of them, like a rock filled

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<v Speaker 2>up with rain.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Or that they keep their elevated humps sun dried

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<v Speaker 1>as a camel's in the desert. Yeah, that is.

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<v Speaker 2>A good cause. I don't know if there's anything to

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<v Speaker 2>that claim or not, Like, would a whale ever keep

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<v Speaker 2>a part of its body consistently exposed over the surface

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<v Speaker 2>or do they? I mean, what I feel like I've

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<v Speaker 2>seen most of the time is repeatedly going on and

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<v Speaker 2>then coming back up to breathe and then returning correct.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think I think there'll be a hint of

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<v Speaker 1>this in one of the sources I refer to in

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<v Speaker 1>a bit concerning depictions and iconography of whales, which very

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<v Speaker 1>often still do picture the whale as having a large

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<v Speaker 1>portion of its head above the water, as if that's

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<v Speaker 1>just how it rides around. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, we already discussed discussed this question to some extent

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<v Speaker 2>in the last episode, and the consensus of experts, marine biologists,

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<v Speaker 2>and just whale watchers that we were reading last time

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<v Speaker 2>seemed to be that what comes out of the whales

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<v Speaker 2>blowhole is not primarily water. It is not a jet

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<v Speaker 2>like from a fire hose, but it is the explosive

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<v Speaker 2>exhalation of gas from the whale's lungs, and to be clear,

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<v Speaker 2>that can be quite explosive, because when a whale breathes out,

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<v Speaker 2>especially after it has been under for a long time,

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<v Speaker 2>it nearly totally collapses its lungs. It is like a

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<v Speaker 2>blast of breath, and that excellent can create a very

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<v Speaker 2>watery looking blow for several reasons. First of all, the

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<v Speaker 2>exhaled breath contains vapor, which condenses into mist and droplets

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<v Speaker 2>when it leaves the warmer environment of the whale's lungs

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<v Speaker 2>and airways and enters the colder environment of the atmosphere above,

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<v Speaker 2>similar to how you can see your own breath on

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<v Speaker 2>a cold day. Then, of course there's also some droplet

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<v Speaker 2>content in the whale's breath that is just mucus being exhaled,

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<v Speaker 2>kind of like when we sneeze. And then there's probably

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<v Speaker 2>also some splashing of sea water, which may happen if

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<v Speaker 2>the exhalation begins before the blowhole breaks the surface of

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<v Speaker 2>the water, so some water is just getting sort of

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<v Speaker 2>splashed up by the blast, or if there was some

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<v Speaker 2>amount of seawater trapped in the airways robbed. Is that

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<v Speaker 2>about the gist of it, you think?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Yeah, And like I say, from my family's trip

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<v Speaker 1>down to Mexico to observe the gray whales and their lagoons,

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<v Speaker 1>very much the cave with those exhalations that occur below

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<v Speaker 1>the surface of the water. Those can be quite explosive

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<v Speaker 1>and create what feels like a fountain next to you

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<v Speaker 1>in the water.

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<v Speaker 2>But that does not mean the whale spout is shooting

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<v Speaker 2>a jet. It is breathing out, and that breath is gas,

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<v Speaker 2>though it contains probably some mucus droplets and bits of water.

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<v Speaker 1>Now of note, I've run across various descriptions, both in

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<v Speaker 1>literature and in just you know, discussions of whale behavior

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<v Speaker 1>of the spout with a rainbow within it. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>the spout mist goes up into the air and you

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<v Speaker 1>can see the reflection, the refraction and the dispersion of

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<v Speaker 1>light in the water droplets. I don't have much to

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<v Speaker 1>say about that other than it is neat to see,

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<v Speaker 1>and you've certainly seen it see that. It has captured

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<v Speaker 1>people's imaginations over the years, and you can find various

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<v Speaker 1>photos of this today from whale watchers. Rob.

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<v Speaker 2>When you mentioned this, did you know that this actually

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<v Speaker 2>connects to the final paragraph of this chapter in Moby Dick.

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<v Speaker 1>Moby Dick was coming up in my searches, and I've

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<v Speaker 1>never actually read Moby Dick. I've only seen the film adaptations,

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<v Speaker 1>but I did suspect that Melville also touched on this.

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<v Speaker 2>I actually he writes about it quite beautifully, so if

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<v Speaker 2>you don't mind it. In the last paragraph, he says,

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<v Speaker 2>and how nobly it raises our conceit of the mighty

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<v Speaker 2>misty monster. To behold him solemnly sailing through a calm,

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<v Speaker 2>tropical sea, his vast, mild head overhung by a canopy

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<v Speaker 2>of vapor engendered by his incommunicable contemplations. And that vapor,

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<v Speaker 2>as you will sometimes see it, glorified by a rainbow,

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<v Speaker 2>as if Heaven itself put its seal upon his thoughts.

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<v Speaker 2>For do you see, rainbows do not visit the clear air.

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<v Speaker 2>They only irradiate vapor. True science fact. And so through

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<v Speaker 2>all the thick mists of the dim doubts in my mind,

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<v Speaker 2>divine intuitions now and then shoot in kindling my fog

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<v Speaker 2>with a heavenly ray.

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<v Speaker 1>That's beautiful. Yeah, And really, I mean, this is what

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<v Speaker 1>it's like to be in the company of whales. Like

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<v Speaker 1>the idea that Heaven is glorifying them with a rainbow

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<v Speaker 1>does not feel hyperbolic to me having been in their presence,

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<v Speaker 1>Like being in the presence of a whale invites hyperbole

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<v Speaker 1>because it's just such an overwhelming experience.

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<v Speaker 2>Haven't had the experience myself, but I can't disagree. It

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<v Speaker 2>seems quite true to most observers who write of it.

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<v Speaker 2>But I want to come back to this misconception, the

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<v Speaker 2>idea that the whale spout shoots a jet of water

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<v Speaker 2>like from a fire hose. Do we have any idea

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<v Speaker 2>like where does this misconception come from? How far back

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<v Speaker 2>does it go? And like why were people saying this?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's interesting to try and tease this apart getting

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<v Speaker 1>into these older descriptions of whales and older understandings of

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<v Speaker 1>whale behavior and biology. You know, there's a lot we're

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<v Speaker 1>still unraveling about wales today. But historically there was a

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<v Speaker 1>great deal that wasn't known about these creatures, and they

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<v Speaker 1>were frequently the subject of myth, legend and folklore, and

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<v Speaker 1>and even people who are trying to, you know, skeptically

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<v Speaker 1>understand them were often having to depend on the word

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<v Speaker 1>of sailors and second and third hand accounts of what

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<v Speaker 1>they do. And then you throw whalers into the mix,

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<v Speaker 1>and of course, you know that also skews things in

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<v Speaker 1>different directions. But they were, you know, generally, they were

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<v Speaker 1>often interpreted as fish, as monsters, as gods, as shape shifters,

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<v Speaker 1>and more. Now concerning whale blow or whale spout in particular,

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<v Speaker 1>there are a few main myths and misconceptions yea to discuss,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, first hitting on this one about the about

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<v Speaker 1>the spout being a jet of water. Again, this is

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<v Speaker 1>something that not only do you find in old bestiaris

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<v Speaker 1>and woodcuts, some of those old maps. You see these

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<v Speaker 1>fabulous like beat twaals with two you know, almost like Martian,

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<v Speaker 1>old school Martian style blowholes on the top of their

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<v Speaker 1>head that are depicted just spouting big jets of water

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<v Speaker 1>like their fire engines.

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<v Speaker 2>They have almost horns made of water or like antinnae.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes and then just poking around. If you have your

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<v Speaker 1>smartphone with you and you pull up, pull up somebody

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<v Speaker 1>in there, do you know a text? And if you

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<v Speaker 1>go into throwing some whale emojis, chances are, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 1>if your phone's like mine, you'll have two to choose from.

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<v Speaker 1>One is a more thankfully scientifically accurate whale, but the

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<v Speaker 1>other is what we've seen a million times and emojis

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<v Speaker 1>and clip art. It is a cartoon whale spouting a

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<v Speaker 1>fountain out of its single blowhole on the top of

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<v Speaker 1>its head.

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<v Speaker 2>The same way it is most off and drawn with

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<v Speaker 2>the fountains splitting in a kind of fork two ways.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, which, as we discussed in the previous episode, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the spout has different shapes and different intensities depending on

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<v Speaker 1>the species of the whale. Some do kind of squirt

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<v Speaker 1>off in two directions, but it's the way you see

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<v Speaker 1>it in clip art and the simple plistic cartoon illustrations. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it tends to look just like a fountain. Now, in

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<v Speaker 1>trying to in getting into this ended up, I kept

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<v Speaker 1>pulling up older sources. But one of the more interesting

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<v Speaker 1>older sources on this is an eighteen eighty four book

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<v Speaker 1>by naturalist Henry Lee titled See Fables Explained, and it

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<v Speaker 1>took on this misconception about whales spout more than a

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<v Speaker 1>century ago.

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<v Speaker 2>Now a brief note on Henry Lee. He was a

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<v Speaker 2>nineteenth century English naturalist who specialized in marine organisms, and

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<v Speaker 2>for a time he was the director of the Brighton

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<v Speaker 2>Aquarium in England. But he is notable for writing measured

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<v Speaker 2>skeptical investigations of cryptozoological legends, and in this latter capacity

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<v Speaker 2>he has actually come up on the show before, I

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<v Speaker 2>think on some episodes that we just recently did for

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<v Speaker 2>Vaults on Saturdays. So Lee was the author of the

0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:02.640
<v Speaker 2>eighteen eighty seven monogram called the Vegetable Lamb of Tartary,

0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:06.800
<v Speaker 2>a curious fable of the cotton plant. We discussed this

0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:09.320
<v Speaker 2>at length in those episodes on the vegetable lamb, which

0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.800
<v Speaker 2>of course was a legendary organism with accounts going back

0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:17.720
<v Speaker 2>to ancient times, usually described as a basically a mammal

0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:20.920
<v Speaker 2>that grew from a plant, a furry, flesh and blood

0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:24.280
<v Speaker 2>mammal that had meat and bones and blood that came

0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:26.760
<v Speaker 2>out of a stalk that was attached to the ground

0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:30.199
<v Speaker 2>through roots and grew somewhere in Central Asia. While there

0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:33.280
<v Speaker 2>have been multiple skeptical attempts to make sense of these

0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:37.720
<v Speaker 2>legends going back hundreds of years, Lee offered an, I think,

0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.920
<v Speaker 2>in both of our views, an extremely persuasive argument that

0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:46.160
<v Speaker 2>these accounts actually go back to observations and misunderstandings of

0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:50.160
<v Speaker 2>the cotton plant. So, by the standards I would normally

0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:53.920
<v Speaker 2>apply to a I don't know, a multidisciplinary skeptical treatise

0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:58.520
<v Speaker 2>involving literary, historical, and biological knowledge from the eighteen eighties.

0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:02.719
<v Speaker 2>I recall being extremely impressed with the last work of

0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:03.800
<v Speaker 2>Lee's that we looked at.

0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:06.800
<v Speaker 1>Oh. Absolutely yeah. And I feel like this book. What

0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:09.520
<v Speaker 1>I read from it, which is basically the chapter on

0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.000
<v Speaker 1>whale spout, I thought it. Thought it was a very

0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:14.880
<v Speaker 1>level and in many ways ahead of its time. So

0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.240
<v Speaker 1>in this chapter he cites an example of this whale

0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:22.120
<v Speaker 1>spout misunderstanding in the work of the second century Greco

0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:27.920
<v Speaker 1>Roman poet Opium, And this is the quote uncouth the

0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:32.080
<v Speaker 1>site when they, in dreadful play discharge their nostrils and

0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:37.040
<v Speaker 1>refund to see while noisy finfish let their fountains fly

0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:41.960
<v Speaker 1>and spout the curling torrent to the sky. So beautiful,

0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:45.200
<v Speaker 1>you know in translation obviously, But yeah, this idea of

0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:49.840
<v Speaker 1>refunding the sea letting the fountain fly a curling torrent

0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.000
<v Speaker 1>up to the sky, it's at least a landsman's idea

0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:54.760
<v Speaker 1>of what whale spout consisted of.

0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.400
<v Speaker 2>Based on what I've read, it seems like the most

0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:01.080
<v Speaker 2>common understanding was that whales were sh jets of water

0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:04.160
<v Speaker 2>out of their blowholes because they like swallowed a lot

0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:07.200
<v Speaker 2>of water through their mouths while eating, and then they

0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:09.560
<v Speaker 2>would have to squirt it back out, but couldn't do

0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:11.200
<v Speaker 2>that through their mouths for some reason.

0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:14.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Yeah, which I think is one of those things

0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:18.000
<v Speaker 1>that certainly by this point naturalists knew that this is

0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:20.240
<v Speaker 1>not how an organism worked, and certainly not how to

0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:23.240
<v Speaker 1>how a whale works. And so Lee Yeah, he basically

0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.360
<v Speaker 1>lays out that this had been already been refuted time

0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.600
<v Speaker 1>and time again by naturalist but that the image was

0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:34.240
<v Speaker 1>just too entrenched in the popular imagination and popular imagery

0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:38.160
<v Speaker 1>of whales to be fully dismissed. And also more people

0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:41.640
<v Speaker 1>are casually taking these images in than they are actually

0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:45.120
<v Speaker 1>listening to the naturalists, and we have to I guess

0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:47.960
<v Speaker 1>we also have to bear in mind like today so

0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:51.400
<v Speaker 1>many of us have access, whether we're actively watching them

0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:55.600
<v Speaker 1>or not, to fabulous documentaries about the biology and behavior

0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:59.240
<v Speaker 1>of whales, so many opportunities to see for yourself what

0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:01.400
<v Speaker 1>the whales spoel was like. And this of course was

0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:02.040
<v Speaker 1>not always the.

0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:04.480
<v Speaker 2>Case, right, So back then there might have been more

0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:08.480
<v Speaker 2>correct knowledge about whales and their mammalian biology in books,

0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.760
<v Speaker 2>but that it really hits home more when you just

0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:16.120
<v Speaker 2>like see some video of them moving and swimming and spouting.

0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:20.600
<v Speaker 1>Right, right, So he rails against quote sensational pictures in

0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.960
<v Speaker 1>which whales are presented with their heads above the surface

0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:28.000
<v Speaker 1>and throwing up from their nostrils columns of water like

0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:33.000
<v Speaker 1>the fountains in Trafalgar Square. Now he cites another erroneous

0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:39.160
<v Speaker 1>description from a sixteenth century map by map master Olaus Magnus.

0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:41.480
<v Speaker 1>This is somebody we've talked about on the show before

0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:43.720
<v Speaker 1>and concerning old maps and sea monsters.

0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:48.320
<v Speaker 2>Right. I think he came up extensively in my interview

0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:52.760
<v Speaker 2>with chet van Duzer on the history of monsters on maps,

0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:55.760
<v Speaker 2>but I think he's come up in other capacities as well.

0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:57.640
<v Speaker 2>This is a recurring guest.

0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:04.000
<v Speaker 1>Here, yes, Lee right the following, quoting Magnus quote four.

0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:07.280
<v Speaker 1>To the danger of seamen, he will sometimes raise himself

0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.280
<v Speaker 1>above the sail yards and cause such floods of water

0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.080
<v Speaker 1>above his head which he had sucked in, that with

0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.800
<v Speaker 1>a cloud of them, he will often sink the strongest

0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:20.959
<v Speaker 1>ships or expose the mariners to extreme danger. This beast

0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:24.680
<v Speaker 1>hath also a large round mouth like a lamprey, whereby

0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:28.040
<v Speaker 1>he sucks in his meat or water, and by his

0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:32.320
<v Speaker 1>weight casts upon the foe or our hinder deck. He

0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:37.120
<v Speaker 1>sinks and drowns a ship hinder deck, hinder deck, hinder deck.

0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:40.199
<v Speaker 1>I think, I don't know anyway, you get the idea like,

0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:42.879
<v Speaker 1>here's this big monster and there and he fears some

0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:45.280
<v Speaker 1>woodcut illustrations to this article, and you can you can

0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:48.159
<v Speaker 1>easily find these as well, depicting the same sort of

0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:51.960
<v Speaker 1>like you know, beaked monstrosity we just described, with these

0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.040
<v Speaker 1>creatures like coming up to a ship and spitting out

0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.159
<v Speaker 1>that you know, using their their strange blowholes to just

0:17:58.480 --> 0:17:59.679
<v Speaker 1>flood a ship and make.

0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:02.960
<v Speaker 2>It see brutal, not real though.

0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:06.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah no, and Lee continues to rail against this. He

0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:09.280
<v Speaker 1>shares that after previously trying to set the record straight

0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:13.600
<v Speaker 1>on this in a publication, he received letters stating that, Okay, sure,

0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:17.199
<v Speaker 1>while lesser whales might not spout water like this, the

0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.560
<v Speaker 1>great whales are doing it. They're totally doing it. You're wrong.

0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:24.240
<v Speaker 1>So he goes on to discuss the basics of blowhole

0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:27.520
<v Speaker 1>anatomy and function, driving home that there's no way this

0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.560
<v Speaker 1>system could be the system that you find in a

0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:34.439
<v Speaker 1>whale's head, great or small. There's no way that the

0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:37.480
<v Speaker 1>system could be used to squirt jets of pure water.

0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:41.440
<v Speaker 1>It's just not how their bodies work right.

0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:44.399
<v Speaker 2>So, as we said before, in certain cases, there might

0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.560
<v Speaker 2>be a lot of splashing from a whale's explosive exhalation,

0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:51.520
<v Speaker 2>but it's exhaling gas, and that maybe some splash is

0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:54.720
<v Speaker 2>getting caught up in that exhalation, but it is not

0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:58.640
<v Speaker 2>squirting water. What's coming out is from its lungs.

0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.280
<v Speaker 1>Right, And he lays all this out and discusses everything

0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:05.280
<v Speaker 1>we've just mentioned before that yeah, it's not water coming out,

0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:08.080
<v Speaker 1>but if the exhalation comes below the surface of the water,

0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:09.959
<v Speaker 1>it's liable to carry up a lot of water and

0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:11.800
<v Speaker 1>have this explosive watery appearance.

0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:14.320
<v Speaker 2>Now, given all this, I did want to be fair.

0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:16.520
<v Speaker 2>I want to come back and add that to the

0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.800
<v Speaker 2>partial credit of Ishmael, the narrator of Moby Dick. He

0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:22.679
<v Speaker 2>does come down on what we now know to be

0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:25.920
<v Speaker 2>the correct side of the water jet versus mist or

0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:29.880
<v Speaker 2>vapor debate. So he says it is missed, but he

0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:33.359
<v Speaker 2>gives a fairly hilarious reason for thinking it is missed.

0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:38.760
<v Speaker 2>His explanation is as follows. Quote I account him meaning

0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:42.800
<v Speaker 2>the sperm whale no common shallow being, inasmuch as it

0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:45.840
<v Speaker 2>is an undisputed fact that he has never found on

0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:50.560
<v Speaker 2>soundings or near shores all other whales sometimes are. He

0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:55.119
<v Speaker 2>is both ponderous and profound, and I'm convinced that from

0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:59.280
<v Speaker 2>the heads of all ponderous profound beings such as Plato,

0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:04.680
<v Speaker 2>per the Devil, Jupiter, Dante, and so on, there always

0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:08.479
<v Speaker 2>goes up a certain semi visible steam. While in the

0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:12.680
<v Speaker 2>act of thinking deep thoughts, while composing a little treatise

0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:15.879
<v Speaker 2>on eternity, I had the curiosity to place a mirror

0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:18.960
<v Speaker 2>before me an eir long saw reflected there a curious

0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:22.720
<v Speaker 2>involved worming and undulation in the atmosphere over my head,

0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.720
<v Speaker 2>the invariable moisture of my hair while plunged in deep

0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:29.520
<v Speaker 2>thought after six cups of hot tea in my thin

0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:33.040
<v Speaker 2>shingled attic of an August noon. This seems an additional

0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:38.439
<v Speaker 2>argument for the above Supposition's so good, I get sweaty

0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:39.000
<v Speaker 2>one time too.

0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:43.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, these are some some wonderful mental gymnastics which again

0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:47.720
<v Speaker 1>land him in the right spot, but some unnecessary twists

0:20:47.720 --> 0:21:01.000
<v Speaker 1>and turns now. It's worth noting for the most part,

0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:05.560
<v Speaker 1>this misunderstanding of whale anatomy is victimless, right. I Mean,

0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:08.199
<v Speaker 1>It's like, okay, if worst case scenario you think that

0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:12.000
<v Speaker 1>a whale shoots water out of its blowhole. I mean,

0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:14.280
<v Speaker 1>what's it? Or if you encounter a whale you'll be

0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:16.800
<v Speaker 1>set right on this. But it's worth noting that the

0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:21.080
<v Speaker 1>myth of whale spouts and water can even prove actually

0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:24.840
<v Speaker 1>dangerous to wales. This, according to Dan Jarvis of the

0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:29.040
<v Speaker 1>British Divers Marine Life Rescue Organization, is quoted in a

0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:33.600
<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty one Melissa Hobson article on Nationalgeographic Dot cot

0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:37.240
<v Speaker 1>a UK. Apparently there have been cases where people who

0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:39.680
<v Speaker 1>are not familiar with the anatomy of Wales, who still

0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:42.399
<v Speaker 1>have this idea of the whale fountain in their mind.

0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:45.320
<v Speaker 1>They have happened upon a stranded whale on the beach

0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:49.920
<v Speaker 1>and thinking that this great fish needs water, start pouring

0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:55.840
<v Speaker 1>water into its blowhole, which can drown the whale. Oh no, yeah,

0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:59.440
<v Speaker 1>So you know there are cases where not knowing what's

0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.680
<v Speaker 1>going on, even is a non biologist, it can lead

0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:06.560
<v Speaker 1>to something like this. So don't go pouring water into blowholes.

0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:09.680
<v Speaker 2>Certainly not but okay, I think we can mostly close

0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:11.680
<v Speaker 2>the book on the idea of the water jet. It's

0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:14.840
<v Speaker 2>not a water jet. But returning to c fables explained

0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:19.720
<v Speaker 2>by Henry Lee. Lee also briefly addresses a strange claim

0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:22.159
<v Speaker 2>in the same chapter of Mobi Dick that caught our

0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:25.840
<v Speaker 2>attention and we wanted to investigate further and to refresh you.

0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:28.720
<v Speaker 2>We mentioned this in the last episode, but this is

0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:35.000
<v Speaker 2>the allegation made by Ishmael that the whale spout is poisonous,

0:22:35.600 --> 0:22:39.120
<v Speaker 2>a claim that seemed prima fasse unlikely to both of us.

0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:42.800
<v Speaker 2>But to read again from Mobi Dick, just so you'll

0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:46.080
<v Speaker 2>know what he's saying. He says that for even when

0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:49.439
<v Speaker 2>coming into slight contact with the outer vapory shreds of

0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:53.240
<v Speaker 2>the jet, which will often happen, your skin will feverishly

0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:56.600
<v Speaker 2>smart from the acridness of the thing so touching it.

0:22:56.960 --> 0:23:00.480
<v Speaker 2>And I know one who coming into still closer contact

0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:03.640
<v Speaker 2>with the spout, whether with some scientific object in view

0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:07.720
<v Speaker 2>or otherwise, I cannot say, the skin peeled off from

0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:11.879
<v Speaker 2>his cheek and arm. Wherefore, among whalemen the spout is

0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:16.119
<v Speaker 2>deemed poisonous, they try to evade it. Another thing I

0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:18.280
<v Speaker 2>have heard it said, and I do not much doubt it,

0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:21.560
<v Speaker 2>that if the jet is fairly spouted into your eyes,

0:23:21.720 --> 0:23:25.760
<v Speaker 2>it will blind you. The wisest thing the investigator can do, then,

0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:29.200
<v Speaker 2>it seems to me is to let this deadly spout alone.

0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:32.399
<v Speaker 2>So that's a number of strange claims. He says, Okay,

0:23:32.440 --> 0:23:34.920
<v Speaker 2>I've got a friend who got some whale blow on

0:23:35.000 --> 0:23:39.440
<v Speaker 2>him and that made his skin peel off. Whaleman generally

0:23:39.480 --> 0:23:41.600
<v Speaker 2>say that the blow that comes out of the spout

0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:44.600
<v Speaker 2>is poisonous and if you get it in your eyes,

0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:45.679
<v Speaker 2>it will make you blind.

0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:48.359
<v Speaker 1>So Lee doesn't spend a lot of time with this.

0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:53.080
<v Speaker 1>He mentions it. He doesn't really have much to add,

0:23:53.240 --> 0:23:55.320
<v Speaker 1>but he kind of dismisses it out of hand, and

0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:58.320
<v Speaker 1>also throws in there that Herman Melville is quote not

0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:02.520
<v Speaker 1>a naturalist, and he doesn't seem to have much to

0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:06.080
<v Speaker 1>add beyond that, aside from mentioning an account from a

0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:11.040
<v Speaker 1>steamship whaler. He writes, quote, he believes that the blast

0:24:11.119 --> 0:24:13.760
<v Speaker 1>was strong enough to blow a man off the spiracle

0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:17.919
<v Speaker 1>if he were seated on it. Now, I don't know. Okay,

0:24:18.000 --> 0:24:20.359
<v Speaker 1>that also feels kind of like a tall tail, but

0:24:20.720 --> 0:24:23.480
<v Speaker 1>maybe a more believable. It's not saying that it will

0:24:24.000 --> 0:24:27.080
<v Speaker 1>blow your skin off and blind you, but he's just saying, well,

0:24:27.119 --> 0:24:29.399
<v Speaker 1>it's pretty explosive if you were seated right on it.

0:24:29.440 --> 0:24:31.600
<v Speaker 1>I bet it would blast you into the air. I

0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:34.760
<v Speaker 1>think it definitely would make you move so on just

0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:37.520
<v Speaker 1>strong enough to blow a man off the spiracle. I

0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:39.639
<v Speaker 1>believe he would not remain on the spiracle if you

0:24:39.640 --> 0:24:42.040
<v Speaker 1>were somehow balanced there for the spout.

0:24:42.000 --> 0:24:44.080
<v Speaker 2>Right, So it might knock you off, but it would not,

0:24:44.200 --> 0:24:48.359
<v Speaker 2>as often depicted in cartoons and illustrations, create a jet

0:24:48.440 --> 0:24:51.320
<v Speaker 2>that then leaves you floating in the air above it.

0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:54.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah. And the idea of it being used as

0:24:54.720 --> 0:25:00.240
<v Speaker 1>an offensive blast against ships, yeah, that's pure fantasy. One

0:25:00.240 --> 0:25:02.480
<v Speaker 1>thing I did find interestingly he doesn't go into this,

0:25:02.560 --> 0:25:04.440
<v Speaker 1>but he mentions that this being an account from a

0:25:04.440 --> 0:25:09.360
<v Speaker 1>steamship whaler, And I can't help but wonder about during

0:25:09.400 --> 0:25:13.399
<v Speaker 1>the age of steam power, if there's not some level

0:25:13.720 --> 0:25:18.600
<v Speaker 1>of technological comparison going on in one's mind where steam

0:25:18.640 --> 0:25:20.960
<v Speaker 1>comes out at the top of a ship. Steam, of course,

0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:26.280
<v Speaker 1>is very hot and can damage you and burn the

0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:28.960
<v Speaker 1>skin off of your body, things like that, And so

0:25:29.119 --> 0:25:31.400
<v Speaker 1>if there's some sort of like comparison that gets made

0:25:31.640 --> 0:25:34.560
<v Speaker 1>between the ship and the whale, which of course is large,

0:25:35.040 --> 0:25:38.879
<v Speaker 1>travels in the water and also emits these blasts that

0:25:39.400 --> 0:25:42.560
<v Speaker 1>don't look unlike steam like maybe it's the kind of

0:25:42.560 --> 0:25:45.160
<v Speaker 1>thing where there's just kind of like a sub conscious

0:25:45.240 --> 0:25:46.560
<v Speaker 1>comparison being made.

0:25:46.960 --> 0:25:49.400
<v Speaker 2>That's interesting. I never thought about that, but that does

0:25:49.400 --> 0:25:53.040
<v Speaker 2>seem plausible. So I did my own digging around for

0:25:53.359 --> 0:25:57.320
<v Speaker 2>answers on the question of the supposedly poisonous whale spout,

0:25:57.359 --> 0:26:00.159
<v Speaker 2>and like you, Rob, I found no support whatsoever or

0:26:00.280 --> 0:26:04.680
<v Speaker 2>for the claim that the blow from the blowhole is poisonous,

0:26:04.720 --> 0:26:08.880
<v Speaker 2>meaning that it contains a chemical toxin or venom with

0:26:09.040 --> 0:26:13.480
<v Speaker 2>directly injurious effects on nearby mammals through either topical contact

0:26:13.560 --> 0:26:17.080
<v Speaker 2>or ingestion. I found nothing on that. In fact, I

0:26:17.160 --> 0:26:20.399
<v Speaker 2>didn't even find that many references to this passage in

0:26:20.440 --> 0:26:22.359
<v Speaker 2>Moby Dick, which I was surprised by. I thought I

0:26:22.359 --> 0:26:26.320
<v Speaker 2>would come across more. I don't know scientific sources referencing it,

0:26:26.400 --> 0:26:29.280
<v Speaker 2>even if only to contradict it or maybe try to

0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:32.240
<v Speaker 2>get at the source of this belief. But it just

0:26:32.320 --> 0:26:35.200
<v Speaker 2>doesn't seem like this this idea gets a lot of stick.

0:26:35.720 --> 0:26:38.800
<v Speaker 2>One example of the kind of reference I found was

0:26:38.840 --> 0:26:42.680
<v Speaker 2>in not even really a scientific book, just a sort

0:26:42.680 --> 0:26:46.680
<v Speaker 2>of book on grey whales called Grey Whales Wandering Giants

0:26:46.680 --> 0:26:50.679
<v Speaker 2>by Robert Bush from nineteen ninety eight, which mentions the

0:26:50.680 --> 0:26:54.240
<v Speaker 2>claim in Moby Dick that the spout is poisonous, only

0:26:54.280 --> 0:26:57.480
<v Speaker 2>to say that it's not poisonous at all, but that

0:26:57.600 --> 0:27:00.480
<v Speaker 2>sometimes it does have a very powerful smell, and the

0:27:00.560 --> 0:27:04.480
<v Speaker 2>author quotes John Steinbeck from a work called The Log

0:27:04.560 --> 0:27:08.000
<v Speaker 2>from the Sea of Cortes. In Steinbeck wrote, a whale's

0:27:08.000 --> 0:27:13.040
<v Speaker 2>breath is frightfully sickening. It smells of complete decay. The

0:27:13.080 --> 0:27:16.240
<v Speaker 2>author here Bush says, I don't know, It's never really

0:27:16.240 --> 0:27:17.080
<v Speaker 2>smelled that way to me.

0:27:17.920 --> 0:27:21.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I was in a position to smell a lot

0:27:21.280 --> 0:27:23.480
<v Speaker 1>of gray whale breath and I don't know. I mean,

0:27:23.520 --> 0:27:25.840
<v Speaker 1>there is a breathiness to it, I guess at times,

0:27:25.880 --> 0:27:29.199
<v Speaker 1>but yeah, I wouldn't say it stinks. Now. One thing

0:27:29.240 --> 0:27:31.720
<v Speaker 1>to keep in mind, though, is like these are organisms.

0:27:31.960 --> 0:27:35.800
<v Speaker 1>The blowhole is, you know, a breathing orifice. So I

0:27:35.840 --> 0:27:37.919
<v Speaker 1>have read that you do have situations where you can

0:27:37.920 --> 0:27:41.199
<v Speaker 1>have a sick whale, So that could impact what you're smelling.

0:27:41.240 --> 0:27:42.080
<v Speaker 1>I suppose that.

0:27:42.200 --> 0:27:44.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and Bush says the same thing. Maybe when it

0:27:44.200 --> 0:27:46.920
<v Speaker 2>maybe it's breath smells worse when it is diseased or

0:27:46.960 --> 0:27:50.359
<v Speaker 2>wounded or something. So beyond this, I was just I

0:27:51.000 --> 0:27:53.280
<v Speaker 2>was like Okay, I'm going to expand my circle of

0:27:53.320 --> 0:27:56.600
<v Speaker 2>interest here. I was looking to find any evidence of

0:27:56.920 --> 0:28:00.960
<v Speaker 2>any mammal or any animal for that matter, that is

0:28:01.000 --> 0:28:05.120
<v Speaker 2>believed to have poisonous or venomous breath, and I really

0:28:05.160 --> 0:28:08.639
<v Speaker 2>could not find anything that fits the description. Despite the

0:28:08.680 --> 0:28:12.520
<v Speaker 2>popularity of creatures with toxic breath in Dungeons and Dragons

0:28:12.600 --> 0:28:15.679
<v Speaker 2>in video games. It's a good area of effect type attack,

0:28:16.400 --> 0:28:20.080
<v Speaker 2>but I couldn't find really any evidence of this in reality.

0:28:20.119 --> 0:28:22.040
<v Speaker 2>Maybe there is such a thing and I just wasn't

0:28:22.040 --> 0:28:24.720
<v Speaker 2>searching the right way. But the closest stuff I could

0:28:24.760 --> 0:28:27.520
<v Speaker 2>find is what we're all more familiar with, like animals

0:28:27.520 --> 0:28:31.399
<v Speaker 2>that might spit venom or something, but not having toxic breath.

0:28:31.880 --> 0:28:33.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. About the only thing that really comes to my

0:28:33.680 --> 0:28:38.479
<v Speaker 1>mind is vultures, say vomiting, which there are a few

0:28:38.480 --> 0:28:42.000
<v Speaker 1>different interpretations of that behavior, but it's not quite a

0:28:42.080 --> 0:28:44.120
<v Speaker 1>Dungeons and Dragons area of a fact attack.

0:28:44.600 --> 0:28:47.160
<v Speaker 2>And still that would be vomit from the digestive system,

0:28:47.240 --> 0:28:48.640
<v Speaker 2>not toxic breath.

0:28:48.400 --> 0:28:51.480
<v Speaker 1>Right right, not toxic gas emitted from the mouth.

0:28:52.200 --> 0:28:55.360
<v Speaker 2>So is this claim in MOBI to just completely made up?

0:28:55.480 --> 0:28:58.400
<v Speaker 2>Maybe Melville just made it up to make you know,

0:28:58.760 --> 0:29:02.240
<v Speaker 2>just for interesting fictional effect, or maybe it was something

0:29:02.400 --> 0:29:05.800
<v Speaker 2>he heard he heard from people that was an actual

0:29:05.800 --> 0:29:09.360
<v Speaker 2>belief among whalers, but they just made it up. Well maybe,

0:29:09.360 --> 0:29:12.960
<v Speaker 2>but then again maybe not. While I think it's clear

0:29:13.120 --> 0:29:18.920
<v Speaker 2>that the exhalation of wales is not poisonous or venomous,

0:29:19.600 --> 0:29:22.239
<v Speaker 2>I think this could be a misunderstanding of something that

0:29:22.320 --> 0:29:25.320
<v Speaker 2>does seem true, which is that I found evidence that

0:29:25.400 --> 0:29:30.040
<v Speaker 2>sometimes after certain types of contact with marine mammals, including whales,

0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:35.200
<v Speaker 2>people do report reactions. In fact, this is a great

0:29:35.360 --> 0:29:38.680
<v Speaker 2>bit of listener male. We heard from a listener after

0:29:38.800 --> 0:29:41.080
<v Speaker 2>part one of this series who has a bit of

0:29:41.200 --> 0:29:45.440
<v Speaker 2>relevant personal experience. So Rob, I'm going to read Tabitha's

0:29:45.480 --> 0:29:50.200
<v Speaker 2>email here, all right. Tabitha says, dear Robert and Joe,

0:29:50.560 --> 0:29:55.000
<v Speaker 2>regarding the consequences of getting a face full of blowhole ejecta.

0:29:55.320 --> 0:29:58.880
<v Speaker 2>I have a family experience. As a child, I went

0:29:58.960 --> 0:30:02.719
<v Speaker 2>on a dolphin watch boat trip. When dolphins started swimming

0:30:02.760 --> 0:30:05.840
<v Speaker 2>alongside the boat and playing in the bow waves, my

0:30:05.960 --> 0:30:08.160
<v Speaker 2>sister and I were allowed to lie on the deck

0:30:08.240 --> 0:30:11.480
<v Speaker 2>and stick our heads out under the railing to watch them.

0:30:11.840 --> 0:30:16.240
<v Speaker 2>It was the nineties. One dolphin surfaced and exhaled directly

0:30:16.320 --> 0:30:20.600
<v Speaker 2>into my sister's face from close range. Initially she was fine,

0:30:20.680 --> 0:30:24.240
<v Speaker 2>if a bit slimy and embarrassed. Later that day, however,

0:30:24.320 --> 0:30:29.000
<v Speaker 2>her eyes turned red, weepy, and swelled almost shut. I

0:30:29.040 --> 0:30:32.720
<v Speaker 2>don't really remember the aftermath except for thinking it was hilarious,

0:30:32.920 --> 0:30:35.280
<v Speaker 2>but as far as I recall, it got better in

0:30:35.320 --> 0:30:38.760
<v Speaker 2>a day or so, suggesting an allergic reaction rather than

0:30:38.800 --> 0:30:42.840
<v Speaker 2>bacterial infection. So maybe a certain number of people are

0:30:43.080 --> 0:30:46.600
<v Speaker 2>just really allergic to cetaceans. Maybe a lot of people,

0:30:46.680 --> 0:30:49.479
<v Speaker 2>but we don't have the opportunity to find out very often.

0:30:49.920 --> 0:30:52.400
<v Speaker 2>I can imagine a whaling crew having one case of

0:30:52.480 --> 0:30:55.880
<v Speaker 2>whalesnot face rash, and the story spreading until it reaches

0:30:55.920 --> 0:30:59.720
<v Speaker 2>the flesh dissolving, eye melting tall tail stage. Love the

0:30:59.720 --> 0:31:03.760
<v Speaker 2>show as always, Tabitha, well fascinating, and thank you so

0:31:03.840 --> 0:31:07.160
<v Speaker 2>much for sharing this, Tabitha, So I totally agree that

0:31:07.200 --> 0:31:10.200
<v Speaker 2>it is not hard to imagine some nineteenth century whalers

0:31:10.240 --> 0:31:15.360
<v Speaker 2>could observe experiences like this and conclude, incorrectly from it

0:31:15.400 --> 0:31:20.200
<v Speaker 2>that the whale spout is toxic, is venomous or poisonous,

0:31:20.560 --> 0:31:24.240
<v Speaker 2>like the venom of a spitting cobra or something. But

0:31:24.480 --> 0:31:27.400
<v Speaker 2>I was wondering more about the mechanism, what is actually

0:31:27.440 --> 0:31:30.880
<v Speaker 2>going on here? Now, I honestly could not find much

0:31:30.880 --> 0:31:37.680
<v Speaker 2>of anything documenting what we're directly classified as allergic reactions

0:31:37.760 --> 0:31:42.360
<v Speaker 2>to cetacean blow. But I did find a very interesting

0:31:42.400 --> 0:31:47.680
<v Speaker 2>source documenting similar reactions in the context of human zoonotic

0:31:47.800 --> 0:31:52.400
<v Speaker 2>diseases from marine mammal vectors. Now, this is something I

0:31:52.480 --> 0:31:55.440
<v Speaker 2>really had never thought about before we did this series.

0:31:55.480 --> 0:31:58.200
<v Speaker 2>Of course, when you think about zoonotic diseases, you think

0:31:58.240 --> 0:32:03.320
<v Speaker 2>about bats, You think about livestock animals, you know, maybe pigs, birds,

0:32:03.400 --> 0:32:05.800
<v Speaker 2>and so forth. I had never thought of the idea

0:32:05.920 --> 0:32:12.000
<v Speaker 2>that humans could catch diseases from whales, seals, dolphins, and

0:32:12.040 --> 0:32:12.600
<v Speaker 2>so forth.

0:32:13.080 --> 0:32:14.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I mean neither.

0:32:14.600 --> 0:32:17.680
<v Speaker 2>But now allow me to introduce you to the paper

0:32:17.840 --> 0:32:21.200
<v Speaker 2>health Risks for Marine Mammal Workers, published in the journal

0:32:21.240 --> 0:32:24.280
<v Speaker 2>Diseases of Aquatic Organisms the year two thousand and eight

0:32:24.560 --> 0:32:28.400
<v Speaker 2>by Tanya Hunt at All. This is a paper where

0:32:28.440 --> 0:32:31.600
<v Speaker 2>the authors say, there have been, you know, isolated, documented

0:32:31.640 --> 0:32:35.400
<v Speaker 2>cases of humans acquiring zoonotic diseases from marine mammals. There

0:32:35.400 --> 0:32:39.320
<v Speaker 2>are certain diseases that are well known and even have

0:32:39.720 --> 0:32:44.400
<v Speaker 2>interesting little names, such as seal finger. If you want

0:32:44.440 --> 0:32:46.200
<v Speaker 2>to be grossed out. You can look up images of

0:32:46.280 --> 0:32:50.360
<v Speaker 2>seal finger. But they wanted to design a survey to

0:32:50.400 --> 0:32:53.840
<v Speaker 2>get a broader range of responses. So they wanted to

0:32:53.880 --> 0:32:58.320
<v Speaker 2>survey professionals and volunteers who regularly work directly with marine

0:32:58.320 --> 0:33:01.920
<v Speaker 2>mammals to see how common very types of injuries and

0:33:02.600 --> 0:33:06.240
<v Speaker 2>work related illnesses were in people who have contact with

0:33:06.280 --> 0:33:10.320
<v Speaker 2>these animals. So what did they find to read from

0:33:10.360 --> 0:33:13.440
<v Speaker 2>their abstract? First of all, they characterized the people who

0:33:13.480 --> 0:33:17.240
<v Speaker 2>responded to the survey. Most respondents eighty eight percent were

0:33:17.440 --> 0:33:22.840
<v Speaker 2>researchers and rehabilitators. And then they say, quote, of all respondents,

0:33:22.920 --> 0:33:26.560
<v Speaker 2>fifty percent reported suffering an injury caused by a marine

0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:31.640
<v Speaker 2>mammal and twenty three percent reported having a skin rash

0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:37.560
<v Speaker 2>or reaction. Marine mammal Work related illnesses commonly reported included

0:33:37.840 --> 0:33:42.040
<v Speaker 2>seal finger, which is now known to be traceable to

0:33:42.480 --> 0:33:48.920
<v Speaker 2>a bacterium called Mycoplasma conjunctivitis. That's very interesting because that

0:33:49.120 --> 0:33:53.720
<v Speaker 2>conjunctividis is irritation and swelling of the eyes. That of

0:33:53.760 --> 0:33:57.200
<v Speaker 2>course connects to Tabitha's story, but also connects to the

0:33:57.240 --> 0:34:00.200
<v Speaker 2>idea that getting whale blow in your face could make

0:34:00.240 --> 0:34:05.240
<v Speaker 2>you blind but to go on viral dermatitis, bacterial dermatitis,

0:34:05.280 --> 0:34:09.600
<v Speaker 2>and non specific contact dermatitis. This is rash or irritation

0:34:09.680 --> 0:34:13.680
<v Speaker 2>of the skin, although specific diagnoses could not be confirmed

0:34:13.719 --> 0:34:17.120
<v Speaker 2>by a physician. Through the study, severe illnesses were reported

0:34:17.160 --> 0:34:24.760
<v Speaker 2>and included tuberculosis, leptospirosis, brucellosis, and serious sequeli to seal finger.

0:34:25.239 --> 0:34:28.680
<v Speaker 2>Risk factors associated with increased odds of injury and illness

0:34:28.680 --> 0:34:33.600
<v Speaker 2>included prolonged and frequent exposure to marine mammals, direct contact

0:34:33.640 --> 0:34:40.320
<v Speaker 2>with live marine mammals, and contact with tissue, blood and excretions.

0:34:40.760 --> 0:34:44.120
<v Speaker 2>And I was looking at another paper tracking marine mammals

0:34:44.200 --> 0:34:47.279
<v Speaker 2>zunoses in humans. This was by waltzik at All in

0:34:47.440 --> 0:34:51.800
<v Speaker 2>Zunocees and Public Health from twenty twelve and it also

0:34:52.280 --> 0:34:56.360
<v Speaker 2>tried to collect all of the literature on zoonotic infections

0:34:56.360 --> 0:35:00.359
<v Speaker 2>from marine mammals and humans and it concluded that the

0:35:00.400 --> 0:35:05.480
<v Speaker 2>most common type of zoonotic reaction to marine mammals was

0:35:05.800 --> 0:35:10.279
<v Speaker 2>localized skin infections in humans, which again makes you think

0:35:10.320 --> 0:35:14.480
<v Speaker 2>about the discussion about like peeling skin and skin reactions

0:35:14.520 --> 0:35:19.200
<v Speaker 2>that Melville mentions. So those are human diseases that have

0:35:19.400 --> 0:35:24.640
<v Speaker 2>been tentatively linked at least circumstantially to contact with marine mammals.

0:35:24.680 --> 0:35:27.560
<v Speaker 2>But we need to introduce some caveats. Number one. This

0:35:27.600 --> 0:35:30.799
<v Speaker 2>includes a wide range of different marine mammals, so not

0:35:30.880 --> 0:35:34.160
<v Speaker 2>just whales, but all kinds of marine mammals, and a

0:35:34.239 --> 0:35:39.000
<v Speaker 2>wide range of different types of contact, including touching of skin, bites,

0:35:39.480 --> 0:35:43.560
<v Speaker 2>contact with blood and inner organs, etc. Not just exposure

0:35:43.680 --> 0:35:46.840
<v Speaker 2>to say, mucus and droplets from the blowhole of whales.

0:35:47.360 --> 0:35:49.160
<v Speaker 2>So what if we were to come at this question

0:35:49.280 --> 0:35:52.600
<v Speaker 2>from the other direction and ask what is in whales?

0:35:52.640 --> 0:35:55.200
<v Speaker 2>Not specifically when a whale breathes out, there's got to

0:35:55.239 --> 0:35:58.480
<v Speaker 2>be plenty of bacteria and stuff in there. Has anybody

0:35:58.520 --> 0:36:01.960
<v Speaker 2>ever documented what microbes are present in the blow of

0:36:02.000 --> 0:36:05.160
<v Speaker 2>a whale and whether that list contains anything that could

0:36:05.239 --> 0:36:08.759
<v Speaker 2>cause skin or eye infections or otherwise create the impression,

0:36:09.120 --> 0:36:14.120
<v Speaker 2>even the false impression that the spout is poisonous or venomous. Yes,

0:36:14.239 --> 0:36:19.200
<v Speaker 2>there have in fact been investigations microbiological investigations of whale blow.

0:36:19.960 --> 0:36:22.440
<v Speaker 2>The first one I wanted to mention was a paper

0:36:22.440 --> 0:36:27.359
<v Speaker 2>from twenty seventeen. This was published in m Systems two,

0:36:27.440 --> 0:36:31.120
<v Speaker 2>which is an American Society for Microbiology journal. It's by

0:36:31.200 --> 0:36:35.200
<v Speaker 2>amy April at all, and it's called extensive core microbiome

0:36:35.280 --> 0:36:39.880
<v Speaker 2>in drone captured whale blow supports a framework for health monitoring.

0:36:40.400 --> 0:36:43.319
<v Speaker 2>This study was interesting because it used a drone to

0:36:43.680 --> 0:36:47.479
<v Speaker 2>fly above the water surface and collect blow from two

0:36:47.560 --> 0:36:50.960
<v Speaker 2>populations of healthy humpback whales, one Pacific group off of

0:36:51.040 --> 0:36:54.480
<v Speaker 2>Vancouver Island and an Atlantic group off of Cape Cod

0:36:55.239 --> 0:36:58.400
<v Speaker 2>And I was thinking, wow, that's a good use for drones. Yeah,

0:36:58.960 --> 0:37:01.360
<v Speaker 2>So they took these samples, but then they compared the

0:37:02.120 --> 0:37:05.600
<v Speaker 2>microbes present in them to what was present in just

0:37:05.680 --> 0:37:09.080
<v Speaker 2>samples of straight seawater from around because obviously some seawater

0:37:09.120 --> 0:37:11.040
<v Speaker 2>gets in with the blow, so you're looking to see

0:37:11.120 --> 0:37:14.160
<v Speaker 2>what's in the blow that's not just in seawater. And

0:37:14.200 --> 0:37:17.319
<v Speaker 2>the author's right quote. The blow microbiomes were distinct from

0:37:17.360 --> 0:37:21.719
<v Speaker 2>the seawater microbiomes and included twenty five phylogenetically diverse bacteria

0:37:21.800 --> 0:37:26.120
<v Speaker 2>common to all sampled whales. This core assemblage comprised on

0:37:26.239 --> 0:37:29.560
<v Speaker 2>average thirty six percent of the microbiome, making it one

0:37:29.560 --> 0:37:33.480
<v Speaker 2>of the more consistent animal microbiomes studied to date. The

0:37:33.560 --> 0:37:37.680
<v Speaker 2>closest phylogenetic relatives of twenty of these core microbes were

0:37:37.680 --> 0:37:41.759
<v Speaker 2>previously detected in marine mammals, suggesting that this core microbiome

0:37:41.760 --> 0:37:45.520
<v Speaker 2>assemblage is specialized for marine mammals and may indicate a healthy,

0:37:45.760 --> 0:37:51.440
<v Speaker 2>non infected pulmonary system. So that's interesting. These two geographically

0:37:51.480 --> 0:37:55.840
<v Speaker 2>distinct populations of healthy humpback whales from different oceans share

0:37:55.880 --> 0:38:00.719
<v Speaker 2>a common baseline of non pathogenic bacterial species. Of course,

0:38:00.760 --> 0:38:03.480
<v Speaker 2>the fact that a bacterium is not pathogenic in its

0:38:03.520 --> 0:38:07.480
<v Speaker 2>normal whale host doesn't necessarily tell you how it will

0:38:07.520 --> 0:38:11.040
<v Speaker 2>behave when sprayed onto the skin or into the eyes

0:38:11.120 --> 0:38:14.040
<v Speaker 2>of a human being. But then, the other study I

0:38:14.040 --> 0:38:16.800
<v Speaker 2>wanted to mention is one that was published in Nature

0:38:16.880 --> 0:38:22.120
<v Speaker 2>Scientific Reports by Raverty at All in twenty seventeen, called

0:38:22.280 --> 0:38:27.320
<v Speaker 2>Respiratory microbiome of endangered Southern resident killer Whales and Microbiota

0:38:27.400 --> 0:38:32.719
<v Speaker 2>of surrounding sea surface micro layer in the Eastern North Pacific. So,

0:38:33.640 --> 0:38:37.000
<v Speaker 2>to summarize from a news report on this article I

0:38:37.040 --> 0:38:40.600
<v Speaker 2>was reading from the University of British Columbia. Stephen Raverty,

0:38:40.880 --> 0:38:42.960
<v Speaker 2>he was the lead author on the study, is a

0:38:43.000 --> 0:38:46.680
<v Speaker 2>professor or an adjunct professor at University of British Columbia's

0:38:46.760 --> 0:38:50.600
<v Speaker 2>Institute for the Oceans and fisheries, and this study was

0:38:50.600 --> 0:38:55.320
<v Speaker 2>looking at the microbiome of endangered southern resident killer whales

0:38:55.360 --> 0:38:58.239
<v Speaker 2>in what's known as the Salish Sea. It's the sea

0:38:58.360 --> 0:39:01.879
<v Speaker 2>around I think to the inside of Vancouver Island. It's

0:39:02.080 --> 0:39:05.600
<v Speaker 2>the sea around that stretch throughout British Columbia and Washington State.

0:39:06.040 --> 0:39:09.040
<v Speaker 2>And this study was focused on the health of orcas,

0:39:09.200 --> 0:39:12.560
<v Speaker 2>not on humans, so this was not studying human diseases.

0:39:12.600 --> 0:39:16.520
<v Speaker 2>But it did find that the breath of these killer whales,

0:39:16.560 --> 0:39:20.239
<v Speaker 2>when sampled droplets from that blow, contained all kinds of

0:39:20.280 --> 0:39:24.560
<v Speaker 2>bacteria and fungi that are known to cause disease in humans,

0:39:24.680 --> 0:39:29.960
<v Speaker 2>so bacteria like salmonella, like Staphylococcus aureus, and then fungi

0:39:30.160 --> 0:39:34.759
<v Speaker 2>like penicillium and foma. And it's not clear that these

0:39:34.800 --> 0:39:38.560
<v Speaker 2>common bacteria that could also cause disease in humans would

0:39:38.640 --> 0:39:41.399
<v Speaker 2>be present in the breath of all whales. It's also

0:39:41.480 --> 0:39:44.520
<v Speaker 2>not clear that they have always been present, even in

0:39:44.560 --> 0:39:48.120
<v Speaker 2>these killer whales, because there's a possibility that these are

0:39:48.280 --> 0:39:51.960
<v Speaker 2>sort of recently introduced microbia loads that are a result

0:39:52.040 --> 0:39:54.520
<v Speaker 2>of human activity. We don't know, but it's a possibility.

0:39:55.200 --> 0:39:57.480
<v Speaker 2>Giving a quote to this news article, the lead author

0:39:57.560 --> 0:40:00.319
<v Speaker 2>Raverty says, quote, we're not sure if these mic robes

0:40:00.440 --> 0:40:03.520
<v Speaker 2>naturally occur in the marine environment or if they may

0:40:03.560 --> 0:40:07.399
<v Speaker 2>be terrestrially sourced. These animals are long ranging as they

0:40:07.440 --> 0:40:11.720
<v Speaker 2>migrate along the coast, and they are exposed to agricultural

0:40:11.800 --> 0:40:15.600
<v Speaker 2>runoff and urban discharge which may introduce a variety of

0:40:15.640 --> 0:40:19.319
<v Speaker 2>microbes into the water. So ultimately, in this case, we

0:40:19.320 --> 0:40:22.080
<v Speaker 2>don't know for sure, Like we can't take a sample

0:40:22.280 --> 0:40:25.440
<v Speaker 2>of what, you know, whalers might have been getting blown

0:40:25.480 --> 0:40:28.880
<v Speaker 2>in their faces from sperm whales or whales in general

0:40:28.960 --> 0:40:31.839
<v Speaker 2>in the nineteenth century. But here at least there are

0:40:31.960 --> 0:40:36.880
<v Speaker 2>cases today of whales that are ejecting breath from their

0:40:36.960 --> 0:40:41.200
<v Speaker 2>lungs that contains droplets of mucus with bacteria that we

0:40:41.320 --> 0:40:44.919
<v Speaker 2>know do cause disease in humans. Whether that is sort

0:40:44.920 --> 0:40:47.400
<v Speaker 2>of a recent loading onto these whales or whether that

0:40:47.440 --> 0:40:49.239
<v Speaker 2>would have been present a long time ago, we can't

0:40:49.280 --> 0:40:52.200
<v Speaker 2>say for sure. But if you combine this with the

0:40:52.239 --> 0:40:55.160
<v Speaker 2>other observations that people, you know, people who work directly

0:40:55.200 --> 0:40:57.720
<v Speaker 2>with marine mammals report a lot of sort of skin

0:40:57.840 --> 0:41:02.480
<v Speaker 2>infections conjunctividis and things like that, it does not seem

0:41:02.480 --> 0:41:06.960
<v Speaker 2>implausible to me that this story about the whale blow

0:41:07.040 --> 0:41:12.200
<v Speaker 2>being poisonous could emerge from different types of infections people

0:41:12.239 --> 0:41:17.040
<v Speaker 2>get after getting whale mucus or other types of whale

0:41:17.080 --> 0:41:19.400
<v Speaker 2>body fluids on their skin or in their eyes.

0:41:20.360 --> 0:41:22.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there are a number of additional considerations to make

0:41:22.960 --> 0:41:25.759
<v Speaker 1>based on this information, because, on one hand, just by

0:41:25.760 --> 0:41:29.600
<v Speaker 1>the nature of tall tales and sailor lore, how many

0:41:29.680 --> 0:41:32.360
<v Speaker 1>times would it need to happen really for the stories

0:41:33.000 --> 0:41:37.040
<v Speaker 1>to generate, You know, just one incident of somebody really

0:41:37.080 --> 0:41:40.200
<v Speaker 1>swelling up after being exposed to whale blow might be enough.

0:41:41.120 --> 0:41:44.080
<v Speaker 1>At On top of that, if there are myths and

0:41:44.200 --> 0:41:47.239
<v Speaker 1>legends pre existing that to tie into some of this,

0:41:47.600 --> 0:41:50.960
<v Speaker 1>those could add to the energy of these tails and

0:41:51.160 --> 0:41:55.480
<v Speaker 1>could even in their origin be partially inspired by such experiences.

0:41:55.880 --> 0:41:57.319
<v Speaker 1>And then I think the other thing to keep in

0:41:57.360 --> 0:42:00.920
<v Speaker 1>mind is that the whalers you're just talking about, all

0:42:00.960 --> 0:42:04.920
<v Speaker 1>the different things that one might have reactions to have

0:42:04.960 --> 0:42:08.680
<v Speaker 1>exposed to, including like blood and organs, Like the whaler

0:42:09.120 --> 0:42:13.000
<v Speaker 1>was not just out there to to see the whale,

0:42:13.040 --> 0:42:15.239
<v Speaker 1>not just out there to experience the whale. They were

0:42:15.239 --> 0:42:18.799
<v Speaker 1>out there to kill and butcher the whales. So it

0:42:18.840 --> 0:42:21.120
<v Speaker 1>seems entirely likely that yeah, if you're gonna have an

0:42:21.160 --> 0:42:25.759
<v Speaker 1>allergic reaction to one aspect of the whales anatomy. There

0:42:25.760 --> 0:42:29.040
<v Speaker 1>are going to be multiple additional opportunities to be infected

0:42:29.120 --> 0:42:30.800
<v Speaker 1>by blood, viscera, et cetera.

0:42:31.280 --> 0:42:33.479
<v Speaker 2>I absolutely agree with all that. So yeah, I can't

0:42:33.480 --> 0:42:36.920
<v Speaker 2>say for sure, but my best guess is if this

0:42:37.040 --> 0:42:39.279
<v Speaker 2>is not just a made up story, if there are

0:42:39.600 --> 0:42:42.520
<v Speaker 2>if there were actually folk tales among whalers that the

0:42:42.520 --> 0:42:46.120
<v Speaker 2>spout was poisonous, it probably came from people getting some

0:42:46.200 --> 0:42:57.680
<v Speaker 2>kind of infection after being around whales.

0:42:58.560 --> 0:43:00.759
<v Speaker 1>Now I have I have a few other things for

0:43:00.800 --> 0:43:03.600
<v Speaker 1>us to take into this first one kind of ties

0:43:03.640 --> 0:43:07.080
<v Speaker 1>into several different things we've discussed because it definitely concerns whaling,

0:43:07.440 --> 0:43:10.480
<v Speaker 1>It concerns the idea of a liquid spout, and it

0:43:10.560 --> 0:43:17.480
<v Speaker 1>also concerns exposure of the whaler to various parts of

0:43:17.520 --> 0:43:22.960
<v Speaker 1>the whales anatomy. So this concerns the red spout. In

0:43:23.040 --> 0:43:25.960
<v Speaker 1>the book Red Leviat and the Secret History of Soviet Whaling,

0:43:26.280 --> 0:43:29.120
<v Speaker 1>author and previous guest on the show, Ryan Tucker Jones

0:43:29.600 --> 0:43:34.880
<v Speaker 1>discusses the destruction wrought by the Soviet industrial whaling industry,

0:43:34.920 --> 0:43:40.040
<v Speaker 1>and in this one particular case, the Soviet industrial whaling harpoons.

0:43:40.400 --> 0:43:42.719
<v Speaker 1>So these were not like the harpoons of the classical

0:43:42.760 --> 0:43:45.959
<v Speaker 1>age of whaling as depicted in Moby Dick. We're talking

0:43:45.960 --> 0:43:51.040
<v Speaker 1>about things that are fired, and in this case grenade

0:43:51.160 --> 0:43:54.719
<v Speaker 1>tipped so that they explode upon hitting the whale and

0:43:54.760 --> 0:43:58.160
<v Speaker 1>impacting the whale. He points out that the ideal first hit,

0:43:58.400 --> 0:44:01.040
<v Speaker 1>ideal for the whalers, of course, not the whale, would

0:44:01.080 --> 0:44:04.319
<v Speaker 1>be for one of these to go off near the

0:44:04.320 --> 0:44:07.919
<v Speaker 1>whale's vital organs. Wherever it hit, blood would pour into

0:44:07.920 --> 0:44:11.200
<v Speaker 1>the cavity and the brain would eventually succumb. But if

0:44:11.239 --> 0:44:15.120
<v Speaker 1>the lungs were punctured, quote, blood would soon fountain out

0:44:15.280 --> 0:44:19.120
<v Speaker 1>the blowhole. This was termed by the Soviet whalers a

0:44:19.200 --> 0:44:23.040
<v Speaker 1>red spout, and the whale would drown in its own fluids.

0:44:23.600 --> 0:44:25.680
<v Speaker 1>And he goes into a great deal more detail about

0:44:25.680 --> 0:44:27.799
<v Speaker 1>all of this, but suffice to say like two to

0:44:27.880 --> 0:44:32.239
<v Speaker 1>six harpoons were often required to kill the whale. So

0:44:33.160 --> 0:44:35.479
<v Speaker 1>worth keeping this in mind. I think and thinking about

0:44:35.480 --> 0:44:39.759
<v Speaker 1>all of this, and also it brings to mind an

0:44:39.800 --> 0:44:44.840
<v Speaker 1>account that I was reading regarding a mythic monstrous whale.

0:44:45.280 --> 0:44:48.640
<v Speaker 1>So we have the word cetacean, you know, referring to

0:44:48.719 --> 0:44:54.040
<v Speaker 1>our whales. This I've read is connected to the name

0:44:54.120 --> 0:44:57.920
<v Speaker 1>of the of the sea monster in Greek mythology Ketos

0:44:58.000 --> 0:45:01.279
<v Speaker 1>or ctoss, and this leave by some, at least in

0:45:01.400 --> 0:45:05.360
<v Speaker 1>some tellings, to be based on or interpreted as a whale.

0:45:05.880 --> 0:45:10.440
<v Speaker 1>In Menilius's Monster by K. M. Coleman from nineteen eighty three,

0:45:10.520 --> 0:45:14.080
<v Speaker 1>the author points to whale like qualities of spouting in

0:45:14.120 --> 0:45:19.080
<v Speaker 1>the writings of first century Roman poet Manilius. Ovid, however,

0:45:19.480 --> 0:45:22.719
<v Speaker 1>doesn't write of spouting with these with this creature, but

0:45:22.840 --> 0:45:28.200
<v Speaker 1>of vomiting bloody water. So the author of this paper, Coleman,

0:45:28.400 --> 0:45:33.080
<v Speaker 1>contends that Manilius was possibly incorporating observational or even for

0:45:33.160 --> 0:45:35.839
<v Speaker 1>the time natural insight into his treatment of the myth.

0:45:36.400 --> 0:45:39.800
<v Speaker 1>But I also think this depiction that Ovid gives of

0:45:39.880 --> 0:45:43.759
<v Speaker 1>the spouting of bloody water this also brings to mind.

0:45:43.880 --> 0:45:45.440
<v Speaker 1>I mean this, I can't help but compare it to

0:45:45.440 --> 0:45:48.440
<v Speaker 1>this idea of the red spout, and wonder if it

0:45:48.520 --> 0:45:51.720
<v Speaker 1>might be connected to some you know, ancient world older

0:45:51.760 --> 0:45:55.960
<v Speaker 1>accounts of harpooning a whale, piercing the lung and observing

0:45:56.040 --> 0:45:56.840
<v Speaker 1>this reaction.

0:45:57.880 --> 0:46:01.200
<v Speaker 2>Wow, but now I'm picturing this. So the key toss

0:46:01.280 --> 0:46:04.719
<v Speaker 2>or the sea monster that is here being interpreted as

0:46:04.719 --> 0:46:07.880
<v Speaker 2>a whale, I think was the monster in the Perseus

0:46:07.880 --> 0:46:11.480
<v Speaker 2>and Andromeda story. So like when when Cassiopeia offers up

0:46:12.160 --> 0:46:16.000
<v Speaker 2>Andromeda as a sacrifice to the sea monster, we should

0:46:16.200 --> 0:46:19.960
<v Speaker 2>maybe picture at not like a big scaly man thing

0:46:20.080 --> 0:46:21.960
<v Speaker 2>coming out of the water track see and Clash of

0:46:22.000 --> 0:46:25.720
<v Speaker 2>the Titans, but instead a whale vomiting bloody water.

0:46:26.320 --> 0:46:30.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, and you know this idea of the vomiting whale.

0:46:31.120 --> 0:46:33.600
<v Speaker 1>He goes. There's some other accounts of this as well,

0:46:33.920 --> 0:46:36.080
<v Speaker 1>because I was poking around looking for just any other

0:46:36.680 --> 0:46:41.319
<v Speaker 1>interesting like whale spout myths that connected into what we're

0:46:41.320 --> 0:46:43.840
<v Speaker 1>talking about here. And there are various myths about whales

0:46:43.880 --> 0:46:47.319
<v Speaker 1>being you know, monsters or gods and so forth, but

0:46:47.360 --> 0:46:51.320
<v Speaker 1>not all of them are necessarily insightful concerning the spout

0:46:51.400 --> 0:46:54.759
<v Speaker 1>or the blowhole. But I happened to cross something in

0:46:54.920 --> 0:46:58.080
<v Speaker 1>Irish traditions that I can't help but wonder if this

0:46:58.160 --> 0:47:01.320
<v Speaker 1>is something that ended up helping in warm sailor's lore,

0:47:02.040 --> 0:47:05.360
<v Speaker 1>especially as discussed in Moby Dick. I found this initially

0:47:05.400 --> 0:47:09.839
<v Speaker 1>in an eighteen ninety nine publication Notes and Folklore from

0:47:10.080 --> 0:47:16.520
<v Speaker 1>the Renez copy of The Dencentez by TJ. Westrop, published

0:47:16.520 --> 0:47:20.120
<v Speaker 1>in the Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland,

0:47:20.840 --> 0:47:24.520
<v Speaker 1>The Dencentez. This is the tales of the Tales of

0:47:24.520 --> 0:47:27.759
<v Speaker 1>the Duns, the lore of Places. It's a class of

0:47:27.880 --> 0:47:31.920
<v Speaker 1>texts from early Irish literature, and these were apparently added

0:47:31.960 --> 0:47:35.560
<v Speaker 1>to by various writers up until the eleventh or twelfth centuries.

0:47:35.960 --> 0:47:40.759
<v Speaker 1>So here's a quote from this particular author. Quote. A

0:47:40.880 --> 0:47:45.399
<v Speaker 1>very dangerous monster, the rose Sualt is also described, which

0:47:45.440 --> 0:47:51.239
<v Speaker 1>spouts at muhrisk in Mayo and a pestilence ensues. This

0:47:51.320 --> 0:47:55.160
<v Speaker 1>is stated of the whale in other ancient works. When

0:47:55.200 --> 0:48:00.239
<v Speaker 1>the whale spouts upwards, flying creatures die. When downward it

0:48:00.360 --> 0:48:05.160
<v Speaker 1>kills the fish and win at the land, a plague ensues. WHOA,

0:48:06.080 --> 0:48:10.200
<v Speaker 1>So this is the idea of a whale shooting birds

0:48:10.200 --> 0:48:12.839
<v Speaker 1>out of the air with its poisonous spout, and occasionally,

0:48:13.160 --> 0:48:14.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, coming close to the shore and being a

0:48:15.560 --> 0:48:19.480
<v Speaker 1>bringer of plagues, vomiting up plague upon the shore and

0:48:19.560 --> 0:48:23.160
<v Speaker 1>letting that plague or like roll across the countryside as

0:48:23.200 --> 0:48:25.520
<v Speaker 1>a vapor, a bringer of miasthma.

0:48:25.880 --> 0:48:28.280
<v Speaker 2>Okay I was confused about the timeline for a second.

0:48:28.320 --> 0:48:31.160
<v Speaker 2>But okay, so this is an eighteen ninety nine publication,

0:48:31.320 --> 0:48:36.560
<v Speaker 2>but it is discussing these earlier like medieval Irish texts.

0:48:36.560 --> 0:48:40.880
<v Speaker 1>Correct. Yes, and for there's a little background. Marisk is

0:48:41.600 --> 0:48:44.960
<v Speaker 1>in fact a village in County Mayo in Ireland, and

0:48:45.040 --> 0:48:48.280
<v Speaker 1>also according to a different text in eighteen ninety two text,

0:48:48.280 --> 0:48:51.799
<v Speaker 1>I was looking at this roast salt, and I apologize

0:48:51.800 --> 0:48:55.240
<v Speaker 1>that I'm butchering. This was sometimes understood as a sea animal,

0:48:55.400 --> 0:48:58.360
<v Speaker 1>and I think sometimes translated as a walrus. Not that

0:48:58.360 --> 0:49:00.120
<v Speaker 1>we should necessarily think of it as a walrus, but

0:49:00.160 --> 0:49:03.359
<v Speaker 1>you know, sometimes there's a shift in what these terms

0:49:03.360 --> 0:49:05.799
<v Speaker 1>are referring to over time. So since we had a

0:49:05.800 --> 0:49:09.479
<v Speaker 1>sea monster here, especially one of European origin, I turned,

0:49:09.520 --> 0:49:11.560
<v Speaker 1>as I always do, to the books of Carol Rose.

0:49:11.640 --> 0:49:15.040
<v Speaker 1>She has these wonderful pair of encyclopedias, one dealing with

0:49:15.160 --> 0:49:19.200
<v Speaker 1>monsters and giants and other one dealing with fairies and leprechauns.

0:49:19.200 --> 0:49:22.400
<v Speaker 1>And there's some crossover between the books, but they're both great.

0:49:22.600 --> 0:49:25.919
<v Speaker 1>So I looked it up. And Rose has a little

0:49:25.960 --> 0:49:29.160
<v Speaker 1>more insight on the re salt, which she says is

0:49:29.200 --> 0:49:32.960
<v Speaker 1>an alternate name for the moorisk, a monster fish of

0:49:33.040 --> 0:49:36.080
<v Speaker 1>Irish tradition. She writes that it was said to inhabit

0:49:36.400 --> 0:49:41.239
<v Speaker 1>the region of crow og Patrick, and it was super poisonous.

0:49:41.239 --> 0:49:44.000
<v Speaker 1>If it vomited in the water, all the sea life

0:49:44.000 --> 0:49:46.359
<v Speaker 1>around it would die. The fumes from its mouth would

0:49:46.360 --> 0:49:48.839
<v Speaker 1>cause dead birds to fall out of the sky, and

0:49:48.920 --> 0:49:51.680
<v Speaker 1>it could breathe on a coastal region and bring disease.

0:49:52.120 --> 0:49:54.239
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that sort of matches what we were reading a

0:49:54.280 --> 0:49:57.360
<v Speaker 2>minute ago, right right, yeah, yeah, at the coast, it

0:49:57.400 --> 0:50:00.399
<v Speaker 2>brings the pestilens. It kills the birds if it shoots up,

0:50:00.600 --> 0:50:03.120
<v Speaker 2>and it kills the fish if it shoots down, right.

0:50:03.840 --> 0:50:06.719
<v Speaker 1>And I also found another source referring to this. This

0:50:06.760 --> 0:50:10.480
<v Speaker 1>is from P. W. Joyce in nineteen oh six is

0:50:10.760 --> 0:50:15.080
<v Speaker 1>a smaller social history of Ancient Ireland, and this author

0:50:15.120 --> 0:50:17.560
<v Speaker 1>added basically says the same thing, but added that it

0:50:17.640 --> 0:50:20.640
<v Speaker 1>was quote able to vomit in three different ways three

0:50:20.760 --> 0:50:24.200
<v Speaker 1>years in succession. He adds that the vomiting into the

0:50:24.239 --> 0:50:27.800
<v Speaker 1>water also wrecked ships, and when it vomited towards the

0:50:27.880 --> 0:50:31.360
<v Speaker 1>land in the third year, hit the whale caused quote

0:50:31.719 --> 0:50:36.080
<v Speaker 1>a pestilential vapor to creep over the country that killed

0:50:36.120 --> 0:50:38.280
<v Speaker 1>men and four footed animals.

0:50:38.480 --> 0:50:40.520
<v Speaker 2>No not the four footed animals.

0:50:40.880 --> 0:50:43.560
<v Speaker 1>The four footed animals are just at the forefront of

0:50:43.600 --> 0:50:45.600
<v Speaker 1>strange death. I mean, this is how many times are

0:50:45.600 --> 0:50:50.320
<v Speaker 1>we going to in this year last have we talked

0:50:50.320 --> 0:50:53.520
<v Speaker 1>about strange reasons that four legged animals are dying? And

0:50:54.120 --> 0:50:55.800
<v Speaker 1>in the British Isles.

0:50:55.480 --> 0:50:59.000
<v Speaker 2>We never considered this as an explanation for the cattle

0:50:59.080 --> 0:51:02.480
<v Speaker 2>mutilation panic. What if it was actually a risk?

0:51:03.360 --> 0:51:08.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Yeah, what if a whale vomited? So this is

0:51:09.440 --> 0:51:12.440
<v Speaker 1>this is all interesting Again. I don't think that I

0:51:12.520 --> 0:51:15.400
<v Speaker 1>think potentially one has to, you know, take into account

0:51:15.480 --> 0:51:19.719
<v Speaker 1>these these myths and legends about poisonous vomit coming out

0:51:19.719 --> 0:51:23.000
<v Speaker 1>of these whales or whale like creatures. These also first

0:51:23.040 --> 0:51:25.480
<v Speaker 1>hand accounts of potentially getting some sort of an infection

0:51:25.600 --> 0:51:29.200
<v Speaker 1>after contact with a whale spout or whale blood, et cetera.

0:51:30.400 --> 0:51:32.680
<v Speaker 1>But I also can't help but wonder if there's some connection,

0:51:32.760 --> 0:51:38.359
<v Speaker 1>particularly between this story and perhaps encounters with beached and

0:51:38.440 --> 0:51:43.040
<v Speaker 1>dead whales, where there's of course decomposition going on, and

0:51:43.080 --> 0:51:45.600
<v Speaker 1>therefore there's going to be a very strong, awful odor,

0:51:45.600 --> 0:51:47.600
<v Speaker 1>the kind of odor that we would, you know, we

0:51:47.640 --> 0:51:52.120
<v Speaker 1>would associate with with illness. Perhaps, so I wonder I

0:51:52.160 --> 0:51:54.680
<v Speaker 1>wonder if there's any connective tissue there as well.

0:51:55.040 --> 0:51:57.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, Rob, I think this has been a mighty fun

0:51:57.560 --> 0:52:00.919
<v Speaker 2>and interesting exploration. Even though we didn't get a definitive

0:52:00.960 --> 0:52:04.480
<v Speaker 2>answer on the poisonous whales thing, I think what we

0:52:04.520 --> 0:52:08.319
<v Speaker 2>did find out has been enlightening. And as Melville would say,

0:52:08.320 --> 0:52:11.120
<v Speaker 2>through all the thick mists and the dim doubts, you know,

0:52:11.200 --> 0:52:14.440
<v Speaker 2>the divine intuitions now and then shoot, so our fog

0:52:14.480 --> 0:52:16.200
<v Speaker 2>has been enkindled with the heavenly ray.

0:52:16.600 --> 0:52:20.000
<v Speaker 1>Oh very nice. All right, we're gonna go ahead and

0:52:20.000 --> 0:52:21.440
<v Speaker 1>close it out then, But yeah, we'd love to hear

0:52:21.480 --> 0:52:24.439
<v Speaker 1>from everyone out there if you have additional insight, experience, etc.

0:52:24.800 --> 0:52:26.600
<v Speaker 1>Just general thoughts and what we've talked about in this

0:52:26.680 --> 0:52:30.200
<v Speaker 1>pair of episodes or our previous episodes on gray whales

0:52:30.239 --> 0:52:32.680
<v Speaker 1>in particular. Right in we'd love to hear from you.

0:52:33.440 --> 0:52:35.800
<v Speaker 1>Just a reminder that's stuffed able. Your Mind is primarily

0:52:35.800 --> 0:52:38.759
<v Speaker 1>a science podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays,

0:52:39.040 --> 0:52:41.279
<v Speaker 1>but on Mondays we do listener mail. On Wednesdays we

0:52:41.320 --> 0:52:43.880
<v Speaker 1>do a short form artifact or monster fact episode, and

0:52:43.920 --> 0:52:46.840
<v Speaker 1>then on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to

0:52:47.040 --> 0:52:50.040
<v Speaker 1>just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema.

0:52:50.239 --> 0:52:54.080
<v Speaker 2>Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. If you

0:52:54.080 --> 0:52:56.200
<v Speaker 2>would like to get in touch with us with feedback

0:52:56.239 --> 0:52:58.640
<v Speaker 2>on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

0:52:58.680 --> 0:53:00.680
<v Speaker 2>for the future, or just to say hello, you can

0:53:00.719 --> 0:53:03.480
<v Speaker 2>email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

0:53:03.600 --> 0:53:11.640
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0:53:11.680 --> 0:53:14.600
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