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Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert.

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Speaker 2: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And it's Saturday. Time

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Speaker 2: for an episode from the Vault. This is part two

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Speaker 2: of the series that aired last Saturday. This is Because

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Speaker 2: It Is My Heart, Part two, originally from February sixteenth,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three. Let's jump right in.

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Speaker 1: A heart ate Loki. In the embers it lay and

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Speaker 1: half cooked, found he the woman's heart, with child from

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Speaker 1: the woman Loki soon was, And thence among men came

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Speaker 1: the monsters. All the sea, storm driven seeks heaven itself.

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Speaker 1: Over the earth it flows, the air grows sterile. Then

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Speaker 1: follow the snows and the furious winds. For the gods

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Speaker 1: are doomed, and the end is death. Then comes another,

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Speaker 1: a greater than all, Though never I dare his name

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Speaker 1: to speak. Few are they now that farther can see

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Speaker 1: than the moment when Othen shall meet the Wolf.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 2: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. Oh

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Speaker 2: where did that poem come from?

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Speaker 1: Rob?

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Speaker 2: Is that one of those Icelandic texts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is from the lay of Hindler, a Norse

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Speaker 1: poem from the twelfth century or perhaps a little later.

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Speaker 1: But in this I know that the wording and in

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Speaker 1: this translation can maybe be a little confusing. A heart

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Speaker 1: is not eating Loki. Loki, the Norse trickster god is

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Speaker 1: consuming a heart, and after consuming that heart, he becomes

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Speaker 1: with child, and those children are the monsters that plague

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Speaker 1: you man.

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Speaker 2: I think this poem is easier to follow if you

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Speaker 2: read it in Yoda voice because it follows Yoda syntax.

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Speaker 1: It does a heart Loki. Yeah, you know. So. In

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Speaker 1: this poem we see just one example of heart consumption

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Speaker 1: in Norse mythology. There are other tales. There are tales

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Speaker 1: of men eating the bloody hearts of slain dragons to

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Speaker 1: gain their strength and courage, and this is a motif

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Speaker 1: we see continued in other European myths as well, such

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Speaker 1: as that of the Germanic hero a Cigarette who consumes

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Speaker 1: the heart of the dragon Faffnir after slaying the monster.

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Speaker 1: In one telling of that, this kind of goes back

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Speaker 1: to episodes from last year that will be rerunning shortly.

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Speaker 1: In one telling of this, avac he has the dragon's heart.

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Speaker 1: He cooks it over the fire too, and so he

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Speaker 1: can eat it, and in doing so he burns his

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Speaker 1: hand on those delicious blood juices of the heart, and

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Speaker 1: he instinctively licks his hand because he's been burned. And

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Speaker 1: the taste of the dragon's blood is said to give

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Speaker 1: him the ability to understand all languages.

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Speaker 2: Oh, this reminds me of the Salmon of knowledge. Is

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Speaker 2: that the comparison there?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's I think exactly the comparison. I don't

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Speaker 1: remember this coming up, but there's a lot of a

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Speaker 1: lot of those tales are interconnected, and some of their

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Speaker 1: themes and sometimes the details.

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Speaker 2: Well, obviously we are back with part two of our

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Speaker 2: series on the removal of hearts, a topic that Rob

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Speaker 2: you have brilliantly chosen for the week of Valentine's Day,

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Speaker 2: because as much as we associate with love, with the

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Speaker 2: giving around and the trading of symbolic heart imagery, we

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Speaker 2: also do you know, love is a lot about like

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Speaker 2: getting your heart ripped out?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, and of course that we love those metaphors,

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Speaker 1: especially the week of Valentine's Day.

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Speaker 2: Well, so, in the previous episode we ended up focusing

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Speaker 2: on some various traditions of heart removal in ancient Egyptian

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Speaker 2: religion and in a Mesoamerican context. And today we're going

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Speaker 2: to be starting off in accordance with the poem you read,

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Speaker 2: looking at some Norse traditions.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And I found a really great book that

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Speaker 1: I used in putting this section together. It's called A

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Speaker 1: History of the Heart by O. M. Hoystad of Telmark

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Speaker 1: University College in Norway. The author here is of Norse

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Speaker 1: descent and frequently mentions that in the book. In the

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Speaker 1: book itself doesn't just deal with Norse traditions of the heart.

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Speaker 1: He also touches on some of the examples we discussed

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Speaker 1: in the last episode. But he spends a lot of

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Speaker 1: time discussing the Norse idea of the heart and what

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Speaker 1: they thought the heart did, and kind of like the

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Speaker 1: way that these ideas affected expectations of physiology. So as

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Speaker 1: Hoystod discusses, the Norse saw the heart as the seat

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Speaker 1: of courage, which you know, that squares with a lot

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Speaker 1: of other traditions as well, and a lot of the

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Speaker 1: ways we talk about the heart metaphorically today, but it

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Speaker 1: was also seen as the seed of the mind. Now,

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Speaker 1: obviously we get into Norse culture, and there's there's a

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Speaker 1: lot in Norse culture beyond the warrior ethos and warrior culture.

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Speaker 1: But Hoystot is pretty quick in this book to say

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Speaker 1: like there was there was a certain ruthless edge to

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Speaker 1: Norse culture as well, and we see that in the

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Speaker 1: way they treated the heart and what Once more, in

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Speaker 1: reading this, I was reminded again of that C. S.

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Speaker 1: Lewis quote that we discussed in a previous episode of

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Speaker 1: about the unloving heart, how it becomes this dark thing

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Speaker 1: and an encased thing that is that is cold and

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Speaker 1: and and unflappable, but also you know, it's it cuts

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Speaker 1: you off from from any like legitimate feeling and connection.

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Speaker 2: Uh yeah, his point in that quote being that love

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Speaker 2: is by nature becoming vulnerable, and you can defend yourself

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Speaker 2: against becoming vulnerable, but that has its own consequences, right

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Speaker 2: the Norse.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how the Norse of old would have

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Speaker 1: have taken that that quote. They would have been like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: perhaps seal that hard off, let it grow nice and cold,

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Speaker 1: because that basically is one of the attributes of the

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Speaker 1: ideal Norse warrior heart. His voice Dood discusses in the book.

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Speaker 1: In some accounts, it even seems to you to go

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Speaker 1: beyond the merely metaphorical, and it seems to be seen

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Speaker 1: as a biological reality, either the physiological result of bravery

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Speaker 1: or its cause. So we're talking about a heart that

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Speaker 1: is shriveled, that is cold, that doesn't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of blood in it, and it doesn't quiver. So in

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Speaker 1: the fust Broad saga, this is the saga of the

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Speaker 1: foster Brothers, or the saga of the Sworn Brothers. This

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Speaker 1: is a tale of the eleventh century surviving in a

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Speaker 1: trio of I think each one is incomplete thirteenth century manuscripts,

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Speaker 1: and it's in this particular tale it's said that following

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Speaker 1: the death of a brave warrior named tor Gear, they

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Speaker 1: take the warrior, they lay him out. He's like laid

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Speaker 1: out on a stone or a table or something, and

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Speaker 1: they open up his guest so that it could be

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Speaker 1: seen what a brave man's heart truly looks like, because

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Speaker 1: they were curious, is it, like they say, is a

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Speaker 1: brave courageous man's heart? Is it small? Is it cold?

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Speaker 1: Is it shriveled? Is it like the heart of the grinch?

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Speaker 1: Before it grows three sizes. M Is it in fact

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Speaker 1: free of the blood that would cause it to quiver

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Speaker 1: and make one a coward? Or is it? Indeed you

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Speaker 1: have the small, firm, cold heart of a warrior. And

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Speaker 1: in this account, supposedly this is exactly what they find.

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Speaker 1: They cut him open and they say, yes, it's all true,

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Speaker 1: like look at this heart. Behold this shrivelled cold heart

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Speaker 1: of a warrior. And so hoist I discusses this a bit.

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Speaker 1: He he references some other accounts. There's a one of

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Speaker 1: a Norse warrior heart from the hell Gees saga. This

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Speaker 1: is a quick quote from that quote. Fearless was he

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Speaker 1: bold for battle? Bone hard, his heart within his breast. Now,

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Speaker 1: he stresses, in this case this is more of a

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Speaker 1: metaphor than anatomical commentary. But he cites the work of

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Speaker 1: a Norse his story in a named Claus von See

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Speaker 1: on the idea that courage and cowardice can still be

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Speaker 1: thought of in Norse thought to stem from quote purely

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Speaker 1: anatomical relations. So to quote of this quote. The important

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Speaker 1: thing for the present argument is that the metaphors mentioned

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Speaker 1: refer to the anatomical composition of the heart, and that

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Speaker 1: they see in its smallness, hardness, and absence of blood

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Speaker 1: a cause of courage, and not only a symptom of it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So it is because your interior organs have certain

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Speaker 2: properties that certain behaviors emerge in you. And so for

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Speaker 2: a warrior who's very courageous and very strong in battle,

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Speaker 2: it just happens to be because their heart is this

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Speaker 2: icy little nugget.

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Speaker 1: Yeah O. When speaking of the icy nuggets, he also

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Speaker 1: points to the giant Rubny in Norse mythology, who is

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Speaker 1: said to be the strongest of all the giants because

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Speaker 1: he has a heart of literal stone.

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Speaker 2: That, yeah, that'll do it.

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Speaker 1: And he also gets into this account of Rudney going

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Speaker 1: up against Thor and and so Rudney's really strong, but

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Speaker 1: you know that Thor also has a really tough heart

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Speaker 1: and has these you know, magical you know, god given

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Speaker 1: hammer and so forth and some other magical items. They

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Speaker 1: don't want to go up into a direct battle against them,

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Speaker 1: so they're like, build a giant, and then they have

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Speaker 1: to give it a heart, but no, no hearts are available,

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Speaker 1: so they put a mayor's heart in there, and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't work, like it just throws off the whole construct

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Speaker 1: but there and then.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, it's like you get the wrong voltage battery.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, basically, you know, And I think that's in that

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Speaker 1: we get back. You know, we're talking about some of

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Speaker 1: the interpretations of the heart and it's role in the

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Speaker 1: body and the person that are more magical and then

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Speaker 1: maybe to modern eyes and scientific understanding a little backwards,

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Speaker 1: but at the same time, they do realize that there

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Speaker 1: is something about the heart that that powers everything. It

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Speaker 1: is the center of the being, even if contrary to

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Speaker 1: this one leg of Norse thought, it has nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with one's mind exactly.

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Speaker 2: And as we talked about in the last episode, it

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Speaker 2: is scientifically true that feedback from organs other than the

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Speaker 2: brain contributes to the way the brain works. So I

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Speaker 2: think the way we put it last time is that,

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Speaker 2: you know, the brain is the necessary organ for cognition.

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Speaker 2: You couldn't think without it. But also it doesn't think

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Speaker 2: in a vacuum. It's influenced by organs throughout the body.

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Speaker 2: So the digestive system has influence on how the brain works,

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Speaker 2: how you feel, how you think, and the cardiovascular system

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Speaker 2: does as well, your heart and your lungs and all that.

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Speaker 2: So I think there is for example, I mean, I

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Speaker 2: think courage and cowardice would be a great example, because

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Speaker 2: that would involve the fight or flight response, which of

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Speaker 2: course is based in the nervous system, but then involves

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Speaker 2: feedback loops from organs throughout the body, and it does

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Speaker 2: indeed include regulation of the circulatory and respiration systems, so

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Speaker 2: in a way, you are sort of getting feedback from

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Speaker 2: the heart when you're feeling fear.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I think we've discussed this before, but

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Speaker 1: I think it would be a mistake to think that

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Speaker 1: the Norse had like a simplistic understanding of, say that

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Speaker 1: the human inner experience, because you also look at things

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Speaker 1: like the idea that of Odin's crows. What were their names,

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Speaker 1: Hogan and Moonan. I think I'm probably mispronouncing them, But

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Speaker 1: we discussed this in the past, how each one has

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Speaker 1: a different connotation dealing with like the mind and memory,

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Speaker 1: as of Oden. So we're going to move on from

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Speaker 1: most of the Norse examples here, but we are going

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Speaker 1: to get into another European example of heart removal, one

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Speaker 1: that I wasn't familiar with until basically researching these episodes.

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Speaker 2: Right, So we're going to talk about heart burial or

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Speaker 2: the treatment of the heart in medieval and post medieval

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Speaker 2: Christian Europe. Now a major source I was consulting on

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Speaker 2: this was a chapter in a collection of archaeology essays.

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Speaker 2: The book that it's from is called Body Parts and

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Speaker 2: Bodies Whole. That was from Oxbow Books, that's an Oxford

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Speaker 2: press in twenty ten and the editors were Katerina Rebe Salisbury,

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Speaker 2: Marie Luis Stigsrensen and Jessica Hughes. And the specific chapter

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Speaker 2: in question is called heart Burial in Medieval and early

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Speaker 2: post Medieval Central Europe by Estella Weiss Crachie, and I

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Speaker 2: looked her up. She's a scholar affiliated with the Austrian

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Speaker 2: Academy of Sciences and the Austrian Archaeological Institute. So between

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Speaker 2: the introduction of Christianity in Europe and roughly the nineteenth century,

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Speaker 2: the usually near universal ideal for burial practices in Europe

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Speaker 2: in Christian Europe was straightforward burial of the body whole

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Speaker 2: with flesh intact. And there are exceptions to this we're

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Speaker 2: going to talk about, but that was basically the norm.

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Speaker 2: And this could be connected in part to Christian beliefs

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Speaker 2: about the afterlife, because strangely, today, I think if you

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Speaker 2: ask most Christians what they believe happens after death, they

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Speaker 2: will say that their immaterial soul separates from the body

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Speaker 2: and goes off to live in Heaven with God for eternity.

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Speaker 2: And under this way of thinking, the body is not important.

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Speaker 2: It's just sort of the matter that the soul uses

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Speaker 2: to live through, and the afterlife will not have a

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Speaker 2: material basis. But this is not what the earliest Christians

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Speaker 2: buy and large believed, and this is not what's described

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Speaker 2: in the earliest Christian texts. They instead speak of what

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Speaker 2: theologians often call a general resurrection, that at the end

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Speaker 2: of the age, all of the dead, the righteous and

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Speaker 2: the unrighteous will be resurrected in bodily form to face judgment,

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Speaker 2: though canfusingly, the apostle Paul writes that it will be

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Speaker 2: a kind of changed bodily form, because the present earthly

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Speaker 2: flesh and bones that we have now are perishable, and

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Speaker 2: so they can't inherit the kingdom. And yet we will

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Speaker 2: be raised in bodily forms. So when our bodies are

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Speaker 2: raised from the dead, we will be given new spiritual flesh,

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Speaker 2: which is imperishable.

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Speaker 1: Synthetic flesh.

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Speaker 2: You could look at it that way, okay, But anyway, So,

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Speaker 2: it was commonly understood by the dominant schools of early

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Speaker 2: Christian theologians that the afterlife for believers would consist of

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Speaker 2: some form of bodily resurrection, even if the body is

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Speaker 2: changed somehow, thus giving rise to a desire for funeral

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Speaker 2: practices that would keep the body relatively intact.

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Speaker 1: And I think, knowing that I would never have conceived

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Speaker 1: that heart removal would be in the cards at all.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think various procedures that in some way violate

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Speaker 2: the wholeness or integrity of the body were controversial with

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Speaker 2: certain people at certain times. And by the way, I

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Speaker 2: want to say this whole thing about like the body.

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Speaker 2: This leads to a great digression on the implications for

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Speaker 2: cannibalism in early Christian thought, because like, okay, what if

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Speaker 2: you are saved, but then you are killed and eaten

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Speaker 2: by a cannibal and your body becomes part of the

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Speaker 2: body of the cannibal, what will happen at the resurrection?

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Speaker 2: Or what if two cannibals eat a Christian and then

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Speaker 2: together the two cannibals have a baby. The baby will

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Speaker 2: be made of parts of the Christian that the parents ate,

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Speaker 2: So how will God retrieve the bits of the Christian

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Speaker 2: from the baby's body and so forth? Like Thomas Aquinas

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Speaker 2: participated in discussions about topics of this sort, and it's

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Speaker 2: a hoot. But anyway, one interesting area we see the

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Speaker 2: theological implications of Europe shifting from mostly Pagan to mostly

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Speaker 2: Christian is in attitudes toward funeral practices, specifically toward cremation,

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Speaker 2: because apart from the literal implications for the possibility of

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Speaker 2: future resurrection, and there were different ideas about this, you know,

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Speaker 2: some Christian theologians did not place as much importance on

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Speaker 2: the integrity of the body, you know, some just didn't

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Speaker 2: think it was a big deal. I think Augustine didn't

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Speaker 2: think it was a big deal. But anyway, cremation was

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Speaker 2: not only a way of destroying the body, including in

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Speaker 2: a way destroying the bones, but also just sort of

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Speaker 2: it was it was culturally associated with paganism. It was

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Speaker 2: something that the Pagans did, and thus it was viewed

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Speaker 2: as alien and unholy by Christian rulers. So, for example,

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Speaker 2: in the seven eighties, and I've seen two different years

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Speaker 2: given for this, seven eighty five and seven eighty nine.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure why the difference or which one is correct,

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Speaker 2: but sometime in the seven eighties, the Christian king Charlemagne,

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Speaker 2: who eventually style himself as the Emperor of the Holy

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Speaker 2: Roman Empire, banned the practice of cremation of the dead

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Speaker 2: as practiced by the Saxons. And I was looking for

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Speaker 2: a quote of this edict. I found it quoted in

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Speaker 2: something called European Paganism The Realities of Cult from Antiquity

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Speaker 2: to the Middle Ages by Ken Dowden, published in twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 2: and this quotes it in translation as follows. If anyone

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Speaker 2: causes the body of a dead man to be consumed

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Speaker 2: by flame according to the right of the Pagans, and

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Speaker 2: shall reduce its bones to ashes, he shall suffer capital punishment.

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Speaker 2: So that's harsh. Cremating a friend or family member's body

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Speaker 2: is punishable by death. So you get the idea of

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Speaker 2: how strongly intact burial was was linked to cultural and

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Speaker 2: religious orthodoxy in much of Christian Europe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the point that it needs to be enforced, apparently

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Speaker 1: with the death penalty, you know, I guess drawing just

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Speaker 1: this firm line that needs to be enforced in the

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Speaker 1: view of the time between us and them.

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Speaker 2: But to come back to Why's Cracheese article. Despite intact

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Speaker 2: burial being the norm, there were countercurrents of thinking and practice,

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Speaker 2: both for cultural and theological reasons. Like again, there were

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Speaker 2: some people who didn't think the intactness of the body

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Speaker 2: was as important as others did, and for purely practical reasons.

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Speaker 2: For example, practical reasons would include space real estate. There

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Speaker 2: was the common practice of removal of bones from a

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Speaker 2: burial place to be taken away to a charnel house

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Speaker 2: because you know, there's just not enough space for all

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Speaker 2: the bodies in the cemetery.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And this is I mean, this is something

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Speaker 1: you see in cultures around the world where there might

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Speaker 1: be some sort of predominant idea about how the dead

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Speaker 1: should be buried. But you're going to then come up

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Speaker 1: against basic environmental constraints on that practice, as well as

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Speaker 1: size constraints based on various factors.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. And I've got another practical time and place, time,

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Speaker 2: place and manner constraint on what can be done with

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Speaker 2: the body, and that would be processing the body in

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Speaker 2: some way to delay putrefaction. This was to preserve the

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Speaker 2: corpse for some reason, often either for public display or

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Speaker 2: for transport across a long distance. And some of these

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Speaker 2: forms of processing, okay, you can imagine some types of

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Speaker 2: just like embalming to make the corpse last as long

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Speaker 2: as possible. But sometimes this was a little more involved

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Speaker 2: than that and could be thought to violate the integrity

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Speaker 2: of the body as a whole. Sometimes it involved removing

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Speaker 2: things or even more extreme forms of processing, and these

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Speaker 2: practices get weirder than you might imagine. So some of

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about here is just disembowelment, removal of

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Speaker 2: the internal organs from the abdominal cavity. Weiscrazi says that

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Speaker 2: this became common in the Frankish Empire in the eighth

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Speaker 2: and ninth centuries. So you take the guts out, or

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Speaker 2: take all the internal organs out. That might have some

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Speaker 2: kind of implication for preserving the rest of the body

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Speaker 2: for a certain period of time to do something with.

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Speaker 2: But in the twelfth century we see the rise of

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Speaker 2: a practice called most teutonicus, which translates to the German custom.

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Speaker 2: What is this custom of the Germans? It was boiling

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Speaker 2: the honored dead.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes here's an example of how it would be used.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes a high ranking warrior or commander would die on

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Speaker 2: a campaign in southern Europe or in the Holy Land,

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Speaker 2: far away from home. How are his retainers going to

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Speaker 2: get the cadaver back to the crypt at the family estate.

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Speaker 2: The German speaking crusaders often did not want to be

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Speaker 2: buried away from home, you know, in the place where

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Speaker 2: they were crusading. They wanted to be buried back at home.

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Speaker 2: The body would obviously rot if it were transported intact,

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Speaker 2: or you know, by cart or even by ship, trying

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Speaker 2: to take it all the way back to Germany or

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Speaker 2: Australia where where the warrior came from. So people came

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Speaker 2: up with the solution of making that warrior into a

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Speaker 2: bone broth. You would have crusader stock. So imagine Conrad

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Speaker 2: here dies in battle trying to sack a Muslim city

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Speaker 2: in Syria, and his servants or his kinsmen get his

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Speaker 2: body and they boil it until you can be boiled

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Speaker 2: in water or in like vinegar or wine, or I

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Speaker 2: think sometimes in milk, but in some kind of liquid.

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Speaker 2: You boil it until the flesh starts to separate from

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Speaker 2: the bones, and then somehow you get the bones clean

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Speaker 2: I guess if you boil it long enough, just basically

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Speaker 2: everything will float off. Or you could boil it for

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Speaker 2: a period and then it might require some additional scraping

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Speaker 2: with sharp instruments, but you would boil first to get

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Speaker 2: the meat off, and then you'd have clean, hygienic bones

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Speaker 2: that could be taken back to the estate in Europe

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Speaker 2: for deposition.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, to your point about the stock, we're really close

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Speaker 1: to just to butchering here this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and sometimes I've read so this was not in

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Speaker 2: this book chapter I'm talking about it. I read somewhere

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Speaker 2: that sometimes the organs from this were discarded, and other

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Speaker 2: times the organs in the flesh were preserved, like you

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Speaker 2: might preserve a meat, like by salting them so that

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Speaker 2: they could be transported somewhere, maybe to be buried separately.

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Speaker 1: Wow, this seems like a whole area that is overdue

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Speaker 1: for exploration in some sort of undead you know, templar

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Speaker 1: fiction or something. You know, you could have the skeletal,

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Speaker 1: reanimated remains of this crusader. And what does he want

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Speaker 1: while he wants his salted organs.

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Speaker 2: Back, Give me my body back in sausage form. It

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Speaker 2: is sausage now, and how fitting for a German speaking

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Speaker 2: medieval noble to become a sausage in death. But anyway,

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Speaker 2: so most Teutonicas, by I guess its advocates, was thought

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Speaker 2: to avoid violating the prohibition against cremation, specifically Charlemagne's probe,

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Speaker 2: because of course it did not involve destruction.

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Speaker 1: Of the bones.

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Speaker 2: You would not be reducing the bones to ashes. The

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Speaker 2: bones would be intact. So I think that's good enough.

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Speaker 2: You know, the body is intact enough to be considered

401
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Speaker 2: okay and not pagan. But some church officials still didn't

402
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Speaker 2: like it, and it was ultimately forbidden as disgusting and

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Speaker 2: unfitting of a proper disposal of the dead by the

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Speaker 2: pope in twelve ninety nine and thirteen hundred. So this

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Speaker 2: would have been Pope. Uh, I just wondering, I had

406
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Speaker 2: to say this, Boniface Bonifaci, I guess Bonifaci the eighth.

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Speaker 2: I was looking for a translation of the original text

408
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Speaker 2: of this edict as well, and so what I came

409
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Speaker 2: across was part of a papal bull from thirteen hundred

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Speaker 2: called bold A Sepulturus, which was quoted in a paper

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Speaker 2: called The Popes and the History of anatomy by James J. Walsh,

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Speaker 2: published in nineteen oh four in the Medical Library and

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Speaker 2: Historical Journal, and the translation of the Papal Bull says,

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Speaker 2: person's cutting up the bodies of the dead barbarously cooking

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Speaker 2: them in order that the bones being separated from the flesh,

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Speaker 2: maybe carried for burial into their own countries, are by

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Speaker 2: the very fact excommunicated. So I think that means no

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Speaker 2: further discussion necessary if you do it automatic excommunication.

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Speaker 1: And you know this does this sounds like a very

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Speaker 1: top down edict right here, and obviously it is coming

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Speaker 1: from the pope. But you can imagine the scenario where

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Speaker 1: out in the field, out in the where you're actually

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Speaker 1: having to deal with the challenge of bringing bodies back

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Speaker 1: across vast distances. You might this might be a lot

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Speaker 1: clearer a situation like this body is going to rot,

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Speaker 1: it is going to be foul. By the time you

427
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Speaker 1: get it back, it is going to be a mess.

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Speaker 1: Why don't we just do the messy part here and

429
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Speaker 1: speed it up a bit and then bring the bones

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Speaker 1: back clean.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you can see the obvious practical advantages to this method,

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Speaker 2: even though I mean we are highlighting how it does

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Speaker 2: seem extremely weird, and I'm not gonna lie it does,

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Speaker 2: but like the advantages are clear in terms of like

435
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 2: hygiene and so forth.

436
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 1: The boiling and milk especially gives me pause. That's the

437
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: one that really sticks with me for some reason, because

438
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: I'm like, boiling and wine, well, yeah, that just makes sense,

439
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: But milk, I don't know.

440
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 2: Walsh writes of more examples of famous rulers who underwent

441
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 2: most Teutonicus. He says, quote the body of Frederic Barbarossa.

442
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 2: I think that's Frederick the First, the Holy Roman emperor,

443
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 2: who was drowned in the river Clef near Jerusalem, was

444
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: one of the first to be treated thus. Afterwards, the

445
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 2: remains of Louis the ninth of France and a number

446
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 2: of his relatives who perished on the ill fated crusade

447
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: in Egypt were brought back to France in this fashion.

448
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:55,919
Speaker 2: And though this is a side issue, I did just

449
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 2: want to quickly make note of it, because the main

450
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 2: point of this paper by Walsh is to refute an

451
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 2: apparently long propagated claim that this papal bull from thirteen

452
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 2: hundred from Boniface the eighth forbade dissection for the purpose

453
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: of anatomical research. So a lot of early histories of

454
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 2: science said, oh, we could have learned so much through

455
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: anatomical dissection if not for this Papal bull. Walsh argues

456
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 2: that it was actually neither intended to have this purpose

457
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 2: nor understood as such, and it was explicitly about boiling

458
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 2: crusaders to bring their bones home from foreign lands.

459
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: And you know what.

460
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 2: Coming back to that chapter by Weisscracie, she says that

461
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 2: despite the prohibition in the Bull, evisceration and excarnation by

462
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 2: boiling continued some people. I guess, I don't know. I

463
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 2: don't know if they didn't know about it, or maybe

464
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 2: they just ignored the pope. I'm not sure, though, she says,

465
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 2: defleshing by boiling eventually faded away, mostly by the middle

466
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:02,360
Speaker 2: of the fifteenth century. However, a related but different practice

467
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 2: is the focus of this chapter, and that is heart burial,

468
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: or the separation of the heart from the body after

469
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 2: death for burial, usually in a different place. Now in

470
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 2: some cases, various types of evisceration, including removal and separate

471
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: treatment of the heart as well as other internal organs,

472
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,479
Speaker 2: may have been practical in the same sense as the

473
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 2: boiling of a crusader's bones. It was in some cases

474
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 2: a practical solution to deal with the tricky situation of

475
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 2: a death far away from home and the inevitable onset

476
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 2: of decay in an era without freezers or modern embalming techniques.

477
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 2: So I was looking for one big example of this,

478
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 2: and I came across what I thought was a great one,

479
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 2: the story of King Henry the First of England, which

480
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 2: is interesting in a number of ways. My main source

481
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 2: on this is some materials from the Reading Museum in

482
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 2: the UK, and the reason for the location of the

483
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 2: Ready Museum will become apparent. Minute but tiny bit of background.

484
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 2: Henry the First, also known as Henry bow Clerk, which

485
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 2: means good scholar, was He was a very ambitious guy.

486
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 2: He was a kind of a Game of Thrones character.

487
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 2: He was the fourth son of William the Conqueror, originally

488
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 2: without a domain rulership of his own because he's the

489
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: fourth son. But Henry became king of England after his

490
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 2: eldest brother, William the Second, died in eleven hundred, and

491
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 2: then Henry made some moves. He leapfrogged over his older

492
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,959
Speaker 2: his other older brother Robert, to claim the English throne,

493
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 2: and then he went out and seized control of the

494
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: Duchy of Normandy in northern France from that same brother,

495
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: Robert in eleven o six.

496
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: Wow, he's making moves.

497
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, making moves. I think he kept Robert in

498
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 2: prison for the rest of his life or something. It

499
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 2: was not that nice on that issue. But one thing

500
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 2: you may have read about Henry, the first notable for

501
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:01,479
Speaker 2: its like brutal pithiness, is the note about the cause

502
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 2: of his death. And the note is that he died

503
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 2: in eleven thirty five at a hunting lodge in Leone

504
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 2: la Foret in Normandy as a result of eating quote,

505
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 2: a surfeit of lampreys.

506
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: It's just like that.

507
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 2: It's like four perfect words.

508
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: I could be wrong, but I think there is an

509
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: episode of horrible Histories that the touches on this.

510
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 2: Oh okay, I should look that up. Well, this that

511
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 2: may cover some of the same stuff I'm about to mention.

512
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 2: By the way, lamprey's, if you're not familiar, they are

513
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 2: a type of I know, kind of wormy looking, jawless fish,

514
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 2: superficially resembling eels. I think biologically they are not eels,

515
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 2: but they're sometimes called eels. I think this death has

516
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 2: been interpreted as maybe food poisoning, but it's not known

517
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 2: for sure, as somehow it is insistently a hilarious idea

518
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 2: to me, This conqueror king dies from just like eating

519
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:02,959
Speaker 2: eating lampreys until he died. But from the Anglo Saxon Chronicles.

520
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 2: This is quoted on the website of the Museum of Reading.

521
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 2: Quote that very year the king died in Normandy the

522
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 2: next day after the feast of Saint Andrew. Then this

523
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 2: land immediately grew dark because every man who could immediately

524
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 2: robbed another. Then his son and his friends took and

525
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 2: brought his body to England and buried it at Reading.

526
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 2: I like that note everybody immediately committing crimes. I don't

527
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 2: buy it, but who knows. Okay, so, but they want

528
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 2: to bring his body back to Redding. That makes sense,

529
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 2: But it's not quite as simple as that. Henry had

530
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: given instructions to take his body to Redding. He did

531
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: want his body to be laid to rest within the

532
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,479
Speaker 2: abbey at Reading, where he had personally found it a

533
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 2: sizeable monastery, but that was all the way over across

534
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 2: the English Channel. Reading is a town a bit to

535
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: the west of London, so it's inland as well. It's

536
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 2: not like right on the coast, And apparently at the

537
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 2: time of his death was bad. There was a winter

538
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 2: gale blowing, making travel across the channel a treacherous proposition,

539
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 2: and according to our chronicles, Henry started rotting and smelling

540
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,479
Speaker 2: bad very quickly. So instead of trying to take him

541
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 2: to Redding as is, a different plan was followed. Henry's

542
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: body was taken to the cathedral at Ruan, which was

543
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 2: nearby Normandy, where it was embalmed in the following manner.

544
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 2: He was vivisected and his heart and intestines were removed

545
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 2: and buried separately at a priory in France. So here's

546
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: a case of heart removal and burial along with the

547
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 2: intestines at a different place than the rest of the body.

548
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 2: His brain and his eyes were also removed. Not sure

549
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 2: what happened to them, somebody might be I'm not sure.

550
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 2: The rest of his flesh was I think slashed open

551
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 2: and rubbed with salt inside out as a preservative, and

552
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 2: he was smeared with a kind of perfume. Finally, the

553
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 2: body was wrapped in an ox hide that was sown shut,

554
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 2: and that part the rest of that body, the salted

555
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 2: body inside the oxide, was taken back to the abbey

556
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,959
Speaker 2: at Reading for burial. But despite these precautions, Henry's retainers

557
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: noticed during the journey back to England that the ox

558
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: hides were leaking quote black fluid all over the place.

559
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 2: It is gross.

560
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: Oh.

561
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 2: Also, despite the obvious caveats to be skeptical of accounts

562
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 2: like this, the chroniclers at least tell us that the

563
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 2: embalmer whose job it was to remove Henry's brain was

564
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 2: so overpowered by the stench that he died.

565
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: Well, that makes sense because that lines up with stuff

566
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: we discuss in the past regarding Egyptian lummification, where one

567
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: of the factors we have to take into account regarding

568
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: the removal and disposal of the brain is that that

569
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: would have gone rants it really quickly and would not

570
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: have been a pleasant material to have to deal with.

571
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 2: Well, it makes me wonder, what can you actually die

572
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: from a stench? Obviously you can die from inhaling things

573
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 2: that are harmful to your body, But like, could something

574
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 2: actually smell so bad that in some way the smell

575
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 2: is what kills you? That doesn't really seem to make sense.

576
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 2: But I don't know.

577
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: H well, I don't know. There would be an interesting

578
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: topic to discuss in the future. I mean, there are

579
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: certain things you can smell that will kill you, but

580
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: it's not the merely the stinch of the thing that

581
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: makes it lethal, right, So it's an open question.

582
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, maybe we'll come back to that one day anyway.

583
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 2: So here we have a case in Henry the First

584
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 2: where there may have also been symbolic considerations involved, but

585
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 2: there were clearly practical reasons for burying the heart and

586
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,239
Speaker 2: other organs separately from the rest of the body. And

587
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: to come back to this this article or this book

588
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 2: chapter I was talking about, whatever the reasons involved. The

589
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 2: author here writes that this type of practice was fairly

590
00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 2: common for the upper classes in Western Europe, starting it

591
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 2: around the time of Henry's reign.

592
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: Quote.

593
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 2: The extraction of the inner organs and the separate burial

594
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 2: of the heart and intestines was a hallmark of English

595
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 2: and French aristocratic mortuary behavior from the twelfth century onwards.

596
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 2: It is worth noting that the English often quickly discarded

597
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 2: the viscera close to the site of corpse treatment, whereas

598
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 2: the French treated them with great respect. The English aristocracy

599
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 2: generally favored a double interment, one for the body, the

600
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 2: other for the heart, while French aristocracy often requested that

601
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 2: the corpses be buried in three separate places body, heart,

602
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 2: and entrails. Now to end that quote, but summarize some

603
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: other comments. A big focus of this chapter is about

604
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 2: the practice of heart burial in Central Europe, so in

605
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 2: mostly German speaking areas of Europe, where it was much

606
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 2: less common than it was in France and England, though

607
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 2: there were some examples. There's one specific exception, which is

608
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 2: that it was a standing tradition of the prince bishops

609
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 2: of Wurtzburg. Wurtzburg is a city in the German state

610
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 2: of Bavaria, and these prince bishops established a tradition with

611
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 2: a three part burial. The corpse would go off to

612
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 2: Wurtzburg Cathedral, the intestines go to the castle church of Marienburg,

613
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 2: and the heart goes off to the monastery of Ebrach.

614
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 2: And in these cases it would have been probably for

615
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,399
Speaker 2: or not probably almost certainly for mainly symbolic reasons rather

616
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: than practical ones. And what were these symbolic reasons, while

617
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 2: she writes in her conclusion that the primary symbolic purpose

618
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 2: of the division of the corpse in both Central and

619
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 2: Western Europe in the Middle Ages was a desire to

620
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:49,359
Speaker 2: quote duplicate the body quote by physically fragmenting corpses, high

621
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 2: ranking individuals could express loyalty to more than one site

622
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 2: and comply with a range of political, religious, and social demands.

623
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, this makes sense. This is kind of like around.

624
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: It's like it's almost like a royal, say, a royal

625
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: official that has three parties on the same night, they're

626
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: going to try to attend each of them for a

627
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: little bit, right.

628
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, make an appearance at all three.

629
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And so this is a similar thing, except

630
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: when one's remains right.

631
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 2: So, at this time, the choice of where to be

632
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 2: buried was often interpreted as an important sign of what

633
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: was important to you. So, if you're a duke and

634
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 2: you want to show your loyalty to your duchy, but

635
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 2: maybe you're also a member of a consecrated religious order

636
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,760
Speaker 2: and you want to show your loyalty to that order's

637
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 2: founding abbey, what can you do? Or maybe you're a

638
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 2: duke and you want to be in part at your duchy,

639
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 2: but also you are on some brutal military campaign and

640
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: you want to be buried in part, you know, in

641
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 2: the Holy Land where you're conquering cities. Is so what

642
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 2: do you do? You duplicate your body, allowing it to

643
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 2: be buried in both places. And one common way of

644
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 2: doing that, especially in Western Europe, mainly England and France,

645
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 2: was burying the body in one and the heart in

646
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 2: the other. A very common example here is English nobles

647
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: having their hearts transported separately to or from the Holy Land.

648
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 2: But the author also writes that in the post medieval period,

649
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 2: such as seventeenth century Catholic Europe, the symbolic significance of

650
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 2: separate heart burial becomes more complicated. Quote, the heart turns

651
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 2: into something more than just a representative of a person.

652
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 2: It becomes a political artifact which was used to renew

653
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 2: spirituality and promote new types of religious beliefs. So a

654
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 2: heart in this case, the way I'm understanding this is

655
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 2: that it could be used more kind of like the

656
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 2: relics of saints, or like a religious icon that was

657
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 2: dedicated to maybe some kind of Catholic counter reformation movement

658
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 2: that would you know, people could look on it and

659
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 2: meditate on it, and it would or not the heart

660
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: itself maybe, but you know, like a marker of its

661
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 2: deposition somewhere, and that would inspire them to feel certain

662
00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 2: religious feelings.

663
00:37:59,080 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: Fascinating.

664
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 2: Another interesting trend observed in this paper that she mentions

665
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 2: in the conclusion, especially in England, it seems like heart

666
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 2: burial takes on a kind of fashionableness, like it's kind

667
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 2: of cool, and like so many things that are perceived

668
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 2: as cool over the years, this had to do in

669
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 2: part with being a practice of the rich. And it

670
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,760
Speaker 2: goes like this, transportation of a corpse is a marker

671
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 2: of what she calls social distinction. So you know, whose

672
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: corpse gets transported around after death, usually a powerful and

673
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 2: wealthy person.

674
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: Quote.

675
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 2: Procedures associated with transportation and delayed burial, such as a

676
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 2: visceration and separate burial of the inner organs, eventually developed

677
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,879
Speaker 2: into symbols of high status even when transport was not necessary.

678
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 2: So maybe if earlier transportation of different parts of the

679
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 2: body around was a sign of like, wow, you're rich

680
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 2: enough to go like lead people to fight in the Crusades,

681
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 2: and it was just a practical necessity there, maybe later on,

682
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 2: and it doesn't have any of those practical implications, but

683
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,240
Speaker 2: it's just like, well, that's what rich, important, powerful people

684
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 2: used to do, so maybe we should do that. Also,

685
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,800
Speaker 2: division of the corpse was more expensive than a regular burial.

686
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 2: So if you are say, rising up through the classes,

687
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 2: like if you were somebody who was formerly more of

688
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 2: a commoner but you got appointed to a to like

689
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 2: an administrative position somewhere within the government, you could try

690
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 2: to signal your rising class status with some kind of

691
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 2: different funeral practice, maybe division of your body and deposition

692
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 2: at different places. So it becomes a form of conspicuous consumption,

693
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 2: a way to show off the fact that you have

694
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 2: money to create the appearance of higher social class or prestige.

695
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: M Yeah, I can afford to not only at one funeral,

696
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: but three funerals. Yeah.

697
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: Now, here's an interesting question. Why did division of the corpse,

698
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 2: including heart burial, spread more quickly in medieval England but

699
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 2: remain peratively rare in Central Europe. She suggests here that

700
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: it's because in England it was practiced by men, women,

701
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 2: and children, whereas in medieval Central Europe basically meaning like

702
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 2: the Holy Roman Empire area, it was mainly done to

703
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 2: unmarried men without legitimate offspring, so obviously that would make

704
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 2: a big difference. Another big difference here comes back to

705
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 2: what we were talking about in the past episode about

706
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,240
Speaker 2: the symbolism of the heart. There appear to be differences

707
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,879
Speaker 2: in the understanding of the unique symbolism in the heart

708
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 2: in western versus Central Europe. So example, here there was

709
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 2: a twelfth century Austrian figure named Hadmar of kun Ring, who,

710
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 2: according to the author, is the only known German speaker

711
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 2: ever to ask for his heart to be transported back

712
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 2: home from a crusade. Because remember, among German speakers, what's

713
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 2: the solution there? The German speakers like the most Teutonicus,

714
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: the German custom may in the bone broth out of

715
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 2: the crusader.

716
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, bring back the bones. But this guy's saying the heart.

717
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: Right, that's what's hot. But Hadmar he he wanted his

718
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: heart brought back. However, he did not ask for the

719
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 2: heart alone. He wanted his heart and his right hand

720
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 2: returned for burial. Why the hand well. Another example cited

721
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 2: earlier in the paper, she mentions Prince Bishop Gottfried of Spitzenberg,

722
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 2: who died in the Third Crusade in the year eleven ninety,

723
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 2: he asked not for his heart to be returned, but

724
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:34,280
Speaker 2: for his hand, and it got lost along the way. Whoops, Hemia,

725
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 2: but she ends up writing quote. It seems that for

726
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 2: the English the heart was important because it represented humanity's

727
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 2: in her being. Among medieval German speaking people, especially the

728
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: prince bishops, who represented both secular and religious powers, other

729
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 2: body parts such as bones or arms could also fulfill

730
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 2: that function. And I thought that was so interesting. It

731
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 2: makes me wonder about the ore of this difference in

732
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 2: metaphor and an idioms. So if in medieval England it's

733
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 2: commonly understood that your heart, the organ that pumps blood,

734
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 2: is the symbol of your soul, you know, it's the

735
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 2: most important seat of your character and your integrity, but

736
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 2: in German speaking lands it might just as well be

737
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 2: your bones or your right hand that symbolize that core

738
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 2: part of you. What linguistic or cultural or literary differences

739
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 2: in those different language traditions might have caused this, you know?

740
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean, on one level, all this is making

741
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 1: me think of all the potential for various horror movies

742
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: and so forth, But it also makes me think of

743
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 1: some of those crawling hand movies of the beast with

744
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: five fingers. You know, like there is something about the

745
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:50,280
Speaker 1: hand that in the treatment given by these various horror films,

746
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: and all of them are kind of interconnected and ultimately

747
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 1: stemming from some of the same source material, but there

748
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,760
Speaker 1: is this idea in them that the hand retains something

749
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,439
Speaker 1: of the original individual, and therefore you can it's really

750
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,919
Speaker 1: not that much of a stretch for even a very

751
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: heart centric or cardiocentric I'm not sure what you would

752
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: you would call this a very heart centric culture to

753
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: realize that, Yeah, you can easily imagine how the hand

754
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 1: could end up getting all of the attention instead, because

755
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 1: we can see examples of that just in our various

756
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: fictions and folk tellings.

757
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 2: So anyway, if it comes down to it, most teutonicus

758
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 2: versus heart burial, which team are you on?

759
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: But it's a bones or heart in hand.

760
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,839
Speaker 2: Boiling to take the bones home or taking the heart

761
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 2: and the body different places?

762
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I don't want to be an inconvenience,

763
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: so I don't know. The heart seems like it might

764
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 1: be a nice tidy way to go about things. Therefore,

765
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: I don't know, if you know it's ultimately about what

766
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 1: they feel comfortable. Is if they would rather do the boiling.

767
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: Okay I would maybe it'd rather not be milk, but

768
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,439
Speaker 1: that's just me, And obviously I'm not going to really

769
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: care all that mon After, after we've reached that.

770
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 2: Point, I'm seeing visions of a gigantic instant pot.

771
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 1: That is not product integration. They did not, they did

772
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 1: not ask us to put that image in everyone.

773
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 2: That would be the best bit of spawn ever.

774
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:18,959
Speaker 1: All right, well, obviously we'd love to hear from everyone

775
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 1: else out there, which would you prefer bones or or heart?

776
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: Hand or hand? And if you choose bones, what's the

777
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: substance you want to hear your bones stripped of their

778
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 1: flesh in? I guess you can choose anything. You can

779
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: choose wine, you can choose milk, you can choose Yahoo.

780
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: I don't know. You know what's your favorite beverage? Yeah?

781
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: Pour it up? Yeah? You know the chocolate you who? Not? Yeah?

782
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 1: You who? Yahoo is the website? You who is the

783
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: chocolate beverage, though there are other brands of the of

784
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: the chocolate beverage as well, But yeah, you who boiled?

785
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 1: And you who?

786
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 2: I think you're onto something.

787
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, So Hey, we'd love to hear from everyone out

788
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 1: there if you have thoughts on what we discussed in

789
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: these two episodes, or if there are some other interesting

790
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 1: ideas of how the heart is seen or treated either

791
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 1: physically as a part of a funeral custom or sacrificial

792
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 1: custom in different cultures and different times in history. Or

793
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 1: if there's something from a mythological level or even a

794
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 1: purely fictional level that you'd like to bring up share

795
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: it with us. We'd love to hear from you. I know,

796
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: just in putting this episode together, run across a few

797
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: other monsters and creatures from various folklores and folk traditions,

798
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 1: so I may have to come back to some of

799
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: those maybe on future episodes of The Monster Fact. Reminder

800
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:37,879
Speaker 1: for everyone out there that this is stuff to blow

801
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: your mind. We're primarily a science podcast with our core

802
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 1: episodes like this one on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and on

803
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: Mondays we do listener mail. On Wednesdays we do Monster

804
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: Factor Artifact, and on Fridays we do Weird House Cinema.

805
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 1: That's our time to set aside most serious concerns and

806
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: just talk about a weird film such as The Beast

807
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 1: with five fingers. That's about a crawling hand or Returnity

808
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,839
Speaker 1: Evil Dead, which well it's also Return of the Blind Dead,

809
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 1: depending on which title you want to go in. That

810
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 1: has to do with undead templars coming back to live.

811
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: So some of those have touched on some of the

812
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: ideas that we discussed in this episode.

813
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 2: Mad Love also about possessed hands, the souls in their

814
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 2: hands in that movie.

815
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 1: That's right, How could I forget Mad Love? All right?

816
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 2: Well, big thanks to our audio producer jj Pauseway. If

817
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 2: you would like to get in touch with us with

818
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 2: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a

819
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 2: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you

820
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 2: can email us at contact. That's Stuff to Blow your

821
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 2: Mind dot com out.

822
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

823
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 3: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

824
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.

825
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 1: Predations, Ratatatator