1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Walk away quietly in any direction and taste the freedom 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: of the mountaineer. Camp out among the grasses and the 3 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: gentians of glacial meadows, in craggy garden nooks full of 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: nature's darlings. Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. 5 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 1: Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and 7 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like 8 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: autumn leaves as age comes on. One source of enjoyment 9 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: after another is closed, like nature's sources never fail. I 10 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: know that our bodies were made to thrive only in 11 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: pure air and the scenes in which pure air is found. 12 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: Welcome Stuff to blow your mind a production of I 13 00:00:54,600 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: Heart Radios How stuff works. Hey, Welcome to stuff to 14 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: blow your mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm 15 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: Joe McCormick. And those quotes we just read were, of 16 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:10,479 Speaker 1: course from the Great John. You're one of the great 17 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: priests of the religion of the Mountains. Absolutely a true 18 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: American hero. I say that without a shred of irony. 19 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: Uh an important individual in the natural preservation efforts of 20 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: the United States. And I like these two quotes because 21 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 1: he's he's getting into the power and the awe of 22 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: the mountains, and that first quote, and in that second 23 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: he's talking about the air of the wilderness. And we're 24 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: going to be discussing the air of the wilderness in 25 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: this our second episode on Sacred Mountains. But I suppose 26 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: we should we should, of course, refer you back to 27 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: the first episode. If you didn't listen to the first 28 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: episode on Sacred Mountains, go back. That is the uh 29 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: important first installment. But let's catch everybody up to speed 30 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: on what we chatted about last time. Sure, well, last 31 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: time we talked about holy mountains from religious and cultural 32 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: beliefs around the world, and common types of beliefs about 33 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: holy mountains. We talked about the idea of mountains as 34 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: the homes of the gods, or as the bodies of 35 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: gods themselves, as uh like entrances to other worlds, as 36 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: pillars that hold up the heavens, as places of pilgrimage, 37 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: as places where the gods once were or still dwell 38 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: or sleep. There's almost an infinite array of ways in 39 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 1: which mountains have been religiously significant, and so we talked 40 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,239 Speaker 1: about some reasons that might be of course, there are 41 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: things having to do with perspective. When one climbs a 42 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: mountain and looks down at the earth. Uh, there are there. 43 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: There's just the sheer fact of its size, I mean, 44 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: in a pretty basic sense, and just how important natural 45 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: forms are and are the shaping of our cosmologies in 46 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: our sense of self. Uh. We discussed like the main 47 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: points along these lines in the last episode. We also, though, 48 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: talked about stories expressed by many mountain climbers, so certainly 49 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: not only by mountain climbers, of hallucinations during the journey 50 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: of climbing a mountain, including the very common third man syndrome. Uh. 51 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: The experience of sensing another person making a journey with you, 52 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: who in fact is not there right, And it's very 53 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: often um, I would say a neutral apparition. Uh, we're helpful, 54 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: not a beneficial one. So it's not like, oh, my goodness, 55 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 1: there's a monster beside me. It's more like, oh, well 56 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: there's Uh. I thought I was up here alone climbing 57 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: this mountain, but there's this this other fella, and that's 58 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: comforting to know that it's not just me. Yeah. We 59 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: read a section from an account by the mountaineer Frank Smythe, 60 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: who wrote of his experiences attempting and failing to summit 61 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: Mount Everest alone in nineteen thirty three, and he wrote 62 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: in one section of his account, quote, all the time 63 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: that I was climbing alone, I had a strong feeling 64 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: that I was accompanied by a second person. And then 65 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: later I remember constantly glancing back over my shoulder. And once, 66 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: when after reaching my highest point, I stopped to try 67 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: and eat some mint cake. I carefully divided it and 68 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: turned around with one half in my hand. It was 69 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: almost a shock to find no one to whom to 70 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: give it. And of course there are also plenty of 71 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 1: much more recent reports of the same thing, people having 72 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: strange experiences, delusions, hallucinations, or at least apparently to you know, 73 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: modern skeptical thinkers, hallucinations. It's very possible if people had 74 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: these experiences in the ancient world, or if they're just 75 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: less skeptically minded, they might think, you know, this was 76 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: a real presence with me on the mountain. There was 77 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: something supernatural happening up there, right. There was something revolting 78 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: about my mint cake that drove the spirit away. Now 79 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: it's clear that very high altitudes can have a number 80 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: of health effects that could have neurological and psychological implications. 81 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: These are generally thought to be caused by the lower 82 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: air pressure at higher altitudes. This is understood to be 83 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: the major cause, though I think it's worth emphasized that 84 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: there are things that are still not fully understood about 85 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: altitude sickness. Absolutely, and you know, there's a whole They 86 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: have been numerous studies over the years about individuals who 87 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: are climatized to a high altitude environments. Uh, that's something 88 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: we could potentially come back and do an entire episode on. Yeah, 89 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: But I think one of the interesting things about altitude 90 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: sickness that we still don't fully understand is why it 91 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: affects different people so differently, Like you can't always predict 92 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: whether a person will experience altitude sickness at a certain altitude. 93 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: And so the generally understood major cause of altitude sickness 94 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: seems to be the lower air pressure means less oxygen 95 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: is compressed in the atmosphere because you're up higher, so 96 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: there's less atmosphere sitting on the air you're breathing, right, 97 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 1: And that this was an idea that we initially explored 98 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: in the under Pressure episode. Yes, and so this means 99 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: you literally get less oxygen with each breath, and of 100 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: course you need oxygen to survive. If you're getting less 101 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: of it with each breath you take, you can begin 102 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 1: to suffer negative sequences in the body and the brain. 103 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 1: And meanwhile, you are perhaps climbing a mountain. Yeah, so 104 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: you're exerting yourself anyway, but it can happen even without exertion. 105 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: That that's important to note. And exactly what altitude it 106 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: sets in varies a good bit from person to person, 107 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: Like we were just talking about, a reasonable figure at 108 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: which a significant percent of people will display symptoms is 109 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: sometimes cited to be eight thousand feet or but for 110 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: each individual person, it's a toss up. You individually might 111 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: be affected at a lower altitude or a higher altitude. 112 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 1: It it's hard to know for sure if you haven't 113 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: been there before. Um it's usually said to be worse 114 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: if you ascend quickly and don't give your body time 115 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 1: to adapt to lower air pressure at higher altitude. So 116 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: that is one thing if you're expecting to be like 117 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: hiking at a high altitude, it's good to give yourself 118 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: time to hang out at high altitude without exerting yourself first, 119 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: Always be wary if you're aboard the starship Enterprise and 120 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: you teleport down to a mountain top, teleport to the 121 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 1: lower mountain area first. Yeah, base camps are still important, guys. 122 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: But some common symptoms of like mild to moderate altitude 123 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: sickness would be the kinds of things you would first 124 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: of all, the kinds of things you would expect with 125 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: less access to oxygen. So maybe shortness of breath, breathing 126 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: harder with less physical exertion, uh, faster heart rate. You 127 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: know your heart's beating hard, it's trying to oxygenate your tissues. 128 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: You're just not getting enough oxygen in each breath, and 129 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: so you know you'd expect those kind of things. But 130 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: also you can experience nausea, dizziness, or lightheadedness, and it 131 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: can mess with your natural drives such as for sleep 132 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: and for food. So you can have loss of appetite, headache, 133 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. In much more severe cases 134 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: of altitude sickness, you can have changes in the color 135 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: of the skin, you can have tightness in the chest. 136 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: You can have mental effects like you know, loss of 137 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: loss of awareness, loss of coherence, or confusion, there can 138 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: even be offing up of blood or loss of consciousness. 139 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: And there there are subsequent life threatening conditions that can 140 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: come out of altitude sickness. One is known as high 141 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: altitude pulmonary a DEMO or hape HPE, where altitude sickness 142 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: leads to a build up of fluid in the lungs. This, 143 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: if you experience it is life threatening and you should 144 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,679 Speaker 1: act on this immediately. Another is high altitude cerebral adema 145 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: or HACE, when altitude sickness leads to swelling of the brain, 146 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: which is very dangerous and of course can cause all 147 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: kinds of mental disturbances. And so obviously one question we 148 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: might have is if people often report seeing things that 149 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: aren't there in the mountains, to what extent can these 150 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: be traced to known psychological or not psychological, known physiological 151 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: conditions like cerebral dima hece absolutely and and as we 152 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: mentioned in the last episode, you know we're not looking 153 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: at this is like this the soul uh cause or 154 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: the soul re in that one has mountain myths, but 155 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: it could certainly potential uh thing that augments them or 156 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 1: feeds them in some cases. No, as we mentioned previously 157 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:14,239 Speaker 1: in the other episodes. There's no way that say, psychological 158 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: disturbances as a result of you know, less oxygen reaching 159 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: the brain or something like that could explain all the myths. 160 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,359 Speaker 1: So one reason for that is that many holy mountains 161 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: aren't high enough to cause any altitude related symptoms. I mean, 162 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: there are holy mountains that are just a few hundred 163 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,839 Speaker 1: meters high. So it's obvious that you know, these are 164 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: these are geographical landmarks and they serve, you know, they 165 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: represent things to people. It doesn't have to be that 166 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,839 Speaker 1: somebody went up on there and had a hallucination that 167 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: caused them to found a religion or a myth around 168 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 1: the mountain. Though. We do want to point out that 169 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: it's possible that in higher mountains, people going up into 170 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: these altitudes could have contributed to beliefs, you know, strange 171 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 1: supernatural beliefs about some mountains, right, and or the idea 172 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: that in general, mountains provide some sort of uh, you know, 173 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,719 Speaker 1: loosening of the veil between this world and the next. Yeah, 174 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: that's a great way to put it. So I want 175 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: to call attention to one recent paper, in particular in 176 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: the journal Psychological Medicine that deals with these phenomena of 177 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: people high up in the mountains having strange and anomalous experiences. 178 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: This was by Katerina Hoofner at All called isolated psychosis 179 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: during exposure to very high and extreme altitude characterization of 180 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: a new medical entity, and this was published in So 181 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: the authors here have examined about eighty three documented cases 182 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 1: among reports from alpine expeditions, and they believe they've identified 183 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: a new independent condition that's separate from altitude sickness and 184 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: separate from any existing mental disorder. It's called isolated high 185 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: altitude psychosis. Now, of course, psychosis is a set of symptoms, 186 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: and that would be I have, right, wait, what we 187 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: can call it? I have, I have, I have. Oh, 188 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: I didn't even think about an acronym I have. Yeah, 189 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: this is I have the International House of Psychosis. Yeah. 190 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: Psychosis is a set of symptoms including quote, hallucinations, delusions, 191 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: disorganized speech, abnormal psychomotor behavior, and negative symptoms, and additionally 192 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: impaired cognition, depression, and mania. So it's characteristic of of 193 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: underlying conditions like schizophrenia, but can also occur in isolation 194 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: due to a number of inciting stressors. You know, one 195 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: of the things is people often think that hallucinations can 196 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: only occur if somebody has an underlying mental illness, But 197 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: people who don't have an underlying mental illness sometimes experienced 198 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: hallucinations just depending on like fleeting, stresses and things that 199 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: are affecting them. Oh yeah, absolutely um. Oliver Sachs's book 200 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: Hallucinations is always a fabulous source on all of this 201 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,959 Speaker 1: because he you know, he discusses hallucinogens a little bit 202 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: in there, but but for the most part, it's it's 203 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: all these various other causes that are in play. Right, 204 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: So the author's exam and a list of documented cases 205 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: of mountaineering, and they looked for signs of high altitude psychosis, 206 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 1: and then they cross reference this to see whether there 207 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:15,719 Speaker 1: were always concurrent symptoms of physiological distress from high altitudes, 208 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: such as high altitude cerebral a DEMO or HACE. Obviously, 209 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: you can see why if the brain is swelling with fluid, 210 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: that might cause things like hallucinations and mental disturbances. So 211 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: from previous studies, we know that how often psychosis occurs 212 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: at high altitude seems to vary a lot, depending on 213 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: who's doing the counting and what criteria they use. So 214 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: this is unfortunately a case where the numbers are not 215 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: very solid. They seem to be all over the place, 216 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: like Woo at All in two thousand six found that 217 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 1: there were hallucinations in three percent of cases with Hace. 218 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: Wilson at All in two thousand nine reported hallucinations in 219 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: thirty two percent of climbers above seven thousand fives, which 220 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: is a totally different criterion than the last thing. Obviously, 221 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: so we're not going apples to apples here, we're just 222 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: seeing what there is to see about hallucinations at altitude. 223 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: Bruger at All in quote found hallucinatory experiences in seven 224 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: of eight, or eighty eight percent of world class climbers 225 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: who reached altitudes above eight thousand five hunds without supplementary oxygen. Obviously, 226 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: this is a pretty wild fluctuation, And I don't know 227 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: for sure, but I guess the discrepancy here has to 228 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: do with the methods they're using to select cases in 229 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 1: these different studies. Right, you'd probably get very different numbers 230 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: if you just check to see if climbers self reports 231 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: psychosis versus say, proactively asking them if they've had psychosis. Yeah, 232 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: this is one of those spreads of numbers that you know, 233 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: it brings to mind the whole like you know, it 234 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: just depends on how you torture the numbers, what kind 235 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: of story you're going to get out of them exactly. 236 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I think one of the problems here is 237 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: that we don't have anything consistent to work with going 238 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: into the study. So so they had to try to 239 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 1: come up with with the method of their own, and 240 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: they know it's not perfect, but it's just to sort 241 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: of get a rough idea of where to start looking 242 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: at this problem. So in the present study, the authors 243 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: found first of all, that psychosis of some kind often 244 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,839 Speaker 1: happens when you're at high altitude. Their sample, which they 245 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: did from consulting existing literature, yielded a result that found quote, 246 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: hallucinations occurred in forty two percent or thirty five out 247 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: of eighty three of the episodes that they surveyed at 248 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: a mean altitude of seven thousand, two hundred and eighty meters, 249 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: and of these episodes, thirty four percent or twelve out 250 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: of thirty five uh The hallucinations occurred at the same 251 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: time that there are signs that the person had a 252 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: cerebral demo or hace they determined that high altitude psychosis 253 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: can happen together with HACE or with other physiological effects, 254 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: or without them. Therefore, they concluded that isolated high altitude 255 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: psychosis or eyeap your coining should be considered an independent 256 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: psychological condition related to high altitude and not us as 257 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: a possible symptom of altitude sickness. And finally, they concluded 258 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: that high altitude psychosis is associated with an increased risk 259 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: of accidents or near accidents. That's kind of not surprising. Uh. 260 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: Now they propose some hypothetical causes for these non hece 261 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: cases of high altitude psychosis. One would be like social 262 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: and sensory deprivation in conjunction with psychological stress. Stress is 263 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: often a common inciting factor for people who don't otherwise 264 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: have him into illness to have hallucinations, right, And then 265 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: of course it's so varied depending on how much stress 266 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: an individual is going to have in a given circumstance, 267 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: and then how that stress is affecting their performance and 268 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: their mental capacity. Yeah, and then you add social and 269 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: sensory deprivation to that. They don't have anybody else there 270 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: to talk to if their climbing alone, or or they 271 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: have limited numbers of people there with them. Uh, the 272 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: their view of the world. You know, there might be 273 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: a lot less like color and stuff than they'd normally 274 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: be seen. Another potential, uh cause they side is quote 275 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: dysfunction of the temporal parietal junction and angular gyros due 276 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: to hypoxia, hypoglycemia and cold. And then finally they say, well, 277 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: another possibility is just that HASE is going on in 278 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: these cases and somehow it's being under diagnosed in the field. 279 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: Maybe a lot of these people experiencing psychosis do have 280 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: HASTE and just for some reason, the normal symptoms are 281 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: not showing up and being recorded. This is I mean 282 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: especially true if you're going it alone, right or or 283 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: even if you you have a climbing partner like you 284 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: you may not I guess be having um, just a 285 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: regular check in about your your your your feelings of 286 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: physical and mental health. Yeah. And of course cerebral adema 287 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: is like that. That's really dangerous. You know, like if 288 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: if you have this, you should be getting treated for it. 289 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: That's not like a time to say Okay, I'll just 290 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: power through and trying to go on up to the summit. Now, 291 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: this is interesting going back to what Frank Smythe and 292 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: the others have talked about with with their experience of 293 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: what's known as third man sent drome. The authors here 294 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: found that when climbers reported perceptual disturbances of various kinds, 295 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 1: the majority, though not all of them, but the majority 296 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: of them were either neutral or even helpful and comforting. 297 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: For example, a hallucinated climbing companion who protects and guides them, 298 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: or a voice encouraging them or warning them of danger. Now, 299 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: just because the majority of these perceptual disturbances and hallucinations 300 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: are positive in nature or at least neutral, doesn't mean 301 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: we shouldn't worry about them. Since hallucinations high altitude seemed 302 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: correlated with a risk of accidents, it's not hard to 303 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: see why that would be. Uh, Climbers high altitude should 304 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: be aware that psychosis is very possible and should develop 305 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: defensive strategies for what happens if it sets in if 306 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 1: you think you see somebody that you don't remember being there. 307 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: Otherwise you should have like procedures in place for that, 308 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: like reality testing. Now, on the other hand, about the study, obviously, 309 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: there appears to be some weakness in the selection criteria 310 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: for cases. But I guess in this kind of study 311 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: you're limited by the fact that you can't just stick people, 312 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: you know, random test subjects at the top of a 313 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: mountain and see if they undergo psychosis. Uh, they're they're 314 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: Also the authors point out, there is survivor bias at play, right, 315 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: We're hearing the stories of people who were able to 316 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: report their stories, some people who did not succumb on 317 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: the mountain or experience some sort of a fatal accident, 318 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: or didn't have somebody with them who got to report 319 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: what happened. Yeah, they say, for future studies, you you 320 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: could perhaps simulate some conditions like this in chambers that 321 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 1: simulate altitude with low oxygen or low atmospheric pressure. Also, 322 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: you don't need to have a huge or hugely random 323 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: number of cases if you just want to establish that 324 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: sometimes people report psychosis at high altitudes with no record 325 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: of altitude sickness or cute sickness like hace. Now we 326 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: mentioned already that that one of the other factors here 327 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: is that not all sacred mountains are enormous skyscraping um, 328 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: you know, monuments to the sky God. Right, not all 329 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: most sacred mountains are probably not even tall enough for 330 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: people to be reaching the same kinds of altitudes that 331 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,959 Speaker 1: are in this study, though some are. The authors here 332 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: point out that most of these reports of symptoms reminiscent 333 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: of psychosis among mountain climbers come from very high and 334 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: extreme altitudes, so like thirty five to fifty ms or 335 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 1: even above. So there're gonna be tons of holy mountains 336 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: around the world that that do not even reach these altitudes. 337 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: Nobody could could climb high enough to be at the 338 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: altitudes like the ones being studied in this in this research, 339 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: so I'd say whether the physiological or psychological effects of 340 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: altitude contribute to these types of religious beliefs in some cases, 341 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: especially at higher peaks, It's hard to know for sure, 342 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: but absolutely it seems possible and even attempting origin story 343 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: for some holy mountains and sacred peaks around the world. Yeah, 344 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: one thing, and I may come back to this, the 345 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: whole idea that most of these reported cases of another 346 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: of this uh you know, this third man or what 347 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: have you, is going to be neutral or beneficial. And indeed, 348 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: when we look at all these different myths about holy mountains, um, 349 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: so many of them are about like the gods living there. 350 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: Um like I wanted to find more mountain monsters. I 351 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: truly did. I'm always looking for the monsters. And not 352 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: to say there are not mountain monsters, certainly there Um, 353 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: there are traditions of things coming down from the mountains, crampits, etcetera. 354 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: But it kind of seems like they're they're weighted in 355 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: favor of at least the neutral deities, neutral spirits and 356 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: what have you, uh and and even beneficial beings as 357 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: opposed to the monsters of say, uh Mount doom Um 358 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: or the lonely mountain and token. Well, maybe we can 359 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: We will explore mountain monsters a little bit today, but 360 00:20:57,960 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: maybe we can explore it more in the future. I'm 361 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: just I didn't think about this when we were preparing, 362 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: but I just now remembered the mountain trolls of Iceland. 363 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: All Right, Well, on that note, let's take a quick break. 364 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: When we come back, we'll look at another study and 365 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,360 Speaker 1: we'll move on to a particular mountain creature that, yes, 366 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: you might qualify, you might describe as a monster. Thank 367 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. All right, we're back, all right, 368 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: What have we got next to? Robert? All right, So 369 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: I was looking at a study. This is one that 370 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 1: you found and then I ended up diving into it. 371 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: This was yeah, yeah, yeah, I was interested. I didn't 372 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: know about this one because it seemed like some of them. Well, 373 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: well you describe it and then we can discuss. Yeah. 374 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 1: This one was titled why Revelations have Occurred on Mountains 375 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: Linking mystical experiences and cognitive neuroscience. This was published in 376 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:50,479 Speaker 1: Medical Hypotheses from Autoto back It, Old Land, SIB and 377 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: blank ep quote. Here's a quote from the piece. Quote. 378 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: Prolonged stay at high altitudes, especially in social deprivation, may 379 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: also lead to refrontal lobe dysfunctions such as low resistance 380 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: to stress and loss of inhibition. Based on these phenomenological, functional, 381 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 1: and neural findings, we suggest that exposure to altitudes might 382 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: contribute to the induction of revelation experiences and might further 383 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,360 Speaker 1: our understanding of the mountain metaphor and religion. So they're 384 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: really going for it on this one, and they point 385 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: to the major revelations in the three major monotheistic religions. 386 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: UH in Judaism, the burning bush uh. This is where 387 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 1: God speaks through the burning bush. This is from Exodus, Christianity, 388 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: there's the Transfiguration from the Book of Matthew. This is 389 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 1: a in which Jesus's divine nature is revealed to onlookers. 390 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 1: And then in Islam there's also the point where Allah 391 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,479 Speaker 1: speaks to the prophet Muhammad, and that is also like 392 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: a mountain revelation. Now, one of the problems here is 393 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: getting into the idea of insufficient altitudes, right yeah. So 394 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: I'd seen the study brought up on a science blog somewhere, 395 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: and I thought, um, it was interesting because it's touching 396 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: on this question we're asking. But I saw it in 397 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: the context of it being ridiculed because the main mountains 398 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: that it's talking about aren't really that hot, you know, 399 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: so they're not like super high mountains that would be 400 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: likely to cause altitude sickness, right right, Yeah, They're not 401 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: dealing with Himalayan peaks here, right. Um. This is what 402 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: the paper says though, about the idea of moderate altitudes. 403 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: They said, although the revelations discussed here had occurred in 404 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 1: moderate altitudes, it may be assumed that in subjects who 405 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: are prone to mystical experiences, already moderate altitudes are sufficient 406 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: to trigger revelation. Like experiences and revelations So the argument here, then, 407 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: I guess is is, first of all, you know, not 408 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 1: not everyone's going to have the same reaction to high 409 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: altitude like we've discussed, and that even moderate high altitude 410 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: they're arguing, could be sufficient. Potentially, this is one of 411 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: those more research needed areas, but it could be enough 412 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: to push people's minds toward mystical experiences, especially if those 413 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: minds are already uh susceptible to say, hallucination to voices 414 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: or to the experience of the supernatural. And then the 415 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: the the remembrance of supernatural experience. You know, it's funny 416 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: that they focus on like the Abrahamic monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity, 417 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: and Islam, because in the last episode, you remember, we 418 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: had a discussion about how it seems to me that 419 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: um that actually sacred geography plays less of a role 420 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: in the Abrahamic religions than it does in many other 421 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: religions around the world, Whereas in in the Abrahamic religions, 422 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: it seems that when a place is wholly it's usually 423 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: because the idea something important happened there, whereas in many 424 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: other religions around the world, the place itself has some 425 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 1: religious significance the the land itself, the mountain is the 426 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: home of the gods, or is the body of a god, 427 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 1: or is sacred in its own right, and not just 428 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: because of something that happened there, right, you know, I 429 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: imagine there could be this is room for a lot 430 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: of theological discussion, uh, you know, in each of these 431 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: three religions. But but yeah, but all three of these 432 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: even as we as we were mentioning them, uh, we 433 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: were mentioning the event they were mentioning in the paper, 434 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: the event that took place, the meeting of of an 435 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: individual in the divine, for instance, in the case of 436 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: the the uh the Jewish and Islamic examples. So at 437 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 1: this point I want to turn to um a particular 438 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 1: mountain entity because I think it lines up with some 439 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 1: of what uh we were just discussing here. And that's 440 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 1: that entity is the YETI everybody's favorite cooler. No, not 441 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: the cooler, I mean, unless the cooler has an actual 442 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: YETI in it. That'd be a good trick discovered one 443 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: what was it the when there's somebody in Georgia who 444 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 1: claimed they had a big foot and like a beer 445 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: cooler and it was like a freezer. Right. Yeah, it 446 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: was a whole the whole thing about ten or eleven 447 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: years ago. Yeah. I remember it well because for one 448 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: fleeting second it made me wonder, are we about to 449 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: know that there is a sasquatch? And of course that 450 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: turned out to not be the case. It was like 451 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: a costume or something. Right now, the Eddie in modern 452 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: Western culture, it has become just kind of a Himalayan 453 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: variant of the sasquatch. You know, if I say yettie, 454 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: you may just picture a big foot or skunk ape, 455 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: whatever the regional variation of this creature is. And I 456 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: do think that is important as we're moving forward to 457 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: to think about the fact that there are variations of 458 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,479 Speaker 1: the wild man uh being in various cultures. Basically like 459 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: a bipedal creature covered in hair that is seen all 460 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: around the world but has distinct origins in each case, 461 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: right right, yes, uh, But I was looking at I 462 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: wanted to get a little like a beetter snapshot the 463 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 1: this ape like beast um as far as like Himalayan 464 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 1: traditions go. So I ran across a very very insightful 465 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 1: piece titled Butanese Tales of the Yetti by Kunzang Codin. 466 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 1: Tales of the creature exist through the Himalayan region and Uh. 467 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: The author points to the different names that are given 468 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: to this entity. So into Tibet there's gangs Me or 469 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 1: glacier man. There's me Champo or strong man, and me 470 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 1: chin Po or great man. Um. The Sherpas Uh call 471 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: it Yetti, the lep Shaws call it chew moon or 472 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: snow goblin I like that one, or hell moon or 473 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 1: mountain goblin. And Nepal there's Nilemu or banmanche. He didn't 474 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: provide a translation translation for those, but I'm assuming some 475 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 1: treatment on these various ideas, you know. Uh. And then 476 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: the Mutanese Uh say me Goy or strong man or 477 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 1: also gred Po. So you know, we this idea of 478 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: some like figure of of savage cold strength with possible 479 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: um you know, god goblin qualities as well. So Childen 480 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: writes that the megoy idea here, it dates back to 481 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: the pre Buddhist Bond writings. The uh is the pre 482 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: Buddhist animist religion. I believe we mentioned this briefly in 483 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: the last episode. Yeah, the indigenous religion of Tibet. It 484 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: came up because Mount Kailash or Mount Kailassa in uh 485 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: in the Himalayas is a peak that is holy, not 486 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 1: just two Hindus who believe uh, some of whom believe 487 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 1: that the Lord Shiva and Parvati dwell on top of 488 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: Mount Kailash, but it's also holy to some Buddhists, chains 489 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: and members of the Bond religion, the Tibetan indigenous religion 490 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: and uh and apparently some Bond rituals call for the 491 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: blood of a Megoy slain with a sharp weapon. Wha, yeah, 492 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: so yeah, so this is a pre existing idea. But 493 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: then you get some Westerners involved, right, and then you 494 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: get this idea boarded and uh and and reignited in 495 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: the Western mind. Uh So. British traveler William Hugh, Knight 496 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: of the Royals the Royal Society's Club, recorded a Yeti 497 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: siding in nineteen o three on his way back to 498 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: India from Tibet. And then there was another siding in 499 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: eighteen twenty five by a Westerner by a Greek zoologist 500 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: in a Tombazi who described it like this. Unquestionably, the 501 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: figure in outline was exactly like a human being walking 502 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: upright and stopping occasionally to uproot or pull at some 503 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: dwarf rhododendron bushes. It showed up dark against the snow, 504 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: and as far as I could make out, wore no clothes. 505 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,479 Speaker 1: And then later you had print sightings and uh and 506 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: so forth in the nineteen fifties that helped popularize the 507 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: idea of the Yetti in the West. UM. Various films 508 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: UH certainly television series like In Search of helped to 509 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: contribute to this idea, and today the interest interest in 510 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: the Yettie continues, but there remains no proof that the 511 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: creature exists. In fact, examination of preserved evidence of Yetti's 512 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: tends to lean toward the intentional or accidental misinterpretation of 513 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: of another animal or its handiwork. So DNA work from 514 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: the past few years, for instance, points uh you know, 515 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: directly to at Asian bears as the source of the samples. 516 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: So in all of this and any anytime we're talking 517 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: about a YETI sighting, even in like the Himalayan region, 518 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: you know, we can't discount hoaxes and various other reasons, 519 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: but we when we consider the potential effects of hypoxia 520 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: and uh uh and and these other like high altitude 521 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: situations which all I think in some degree or related 522 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: to hypoxia. You know, we we might be talking more 523 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: of a full blown hallucination, and then it lower altitudes, 524 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: the effect could just be enough to make the individual, 525 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: you know, see what they want to see when they 526 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: glimpse a normal animal or another human being. So, uh, 527 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: I found this idea of first of all, there is 528 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: I did see this idea echoed in um Searching for 529 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: the Yetty Mysterious Monsters two thousand fourteen, book by General 530 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: for rifkn. Now, this is a kid's book. I want 531 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: to tell you about this, so you normally we don't 532 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: cite a lot of of of of kids book, but 533 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: this one was. Actually I was reading through it. It's 534 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: pretty good. Uh. It seems to to to balance the 535 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: sort of mystical what if with a lot of of 536 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: legitimate skepticism. And then also I did see this idea 537 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: also echoed in a couple of journals and books such 538 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: as High Altitude Medical Science by Udah Kushma and Vocal 539 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: And I think there is a lot of you know, 540 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: there are a lot of similarities between for instance, that 541 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: that yetty account that I read earlier and accounts of 542 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: a third man right like here, there was some other 543 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 1: creature there and uh, you know it wasn't human, but 544 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: it was. It was hanging out, it was there. I 545 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: glimpsed it. And then once you have this and and 546 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: this is of course on top top of a pre 547 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: existing idea of there being some sort of a yetty 548 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: creature in the mountains. Uh. And then once this idea 549 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: gets becomes a part of of Western culture as well, 550 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: then there's more room to misinterpret the the evidence or 551 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: even uh, your senses. Now, I wonder if the if 552 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: like a psychological thing kind of like the the climbing companion, 553 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: the third man syndrome is going on here, what do 554 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: you think it might be that would cause people to 555 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: see a bipedal human like creature covered in hair as 556 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: opposed to seeing you know, another just another human dress 557 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: like them, or too seeing like a dead relative or something, 558 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: you know, one of these common hallucinations of comforting figures. Well, 559 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: on the hair thing, I think certainly of one glimpsed 560 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: a bear that could throw you off. I mean, if 561 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: you've ever seen a bear in the in the flesh, 562 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: you know it can be this weird, surreal and frightening experience. 563 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: I mean, hopefully a little frightening, because as far as 564 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: I'm concerned, if you encounter a bear and you don't 565 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: have like a certain amount of fear, you're doing it wrong. Oh. 566 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: I think there are good reasons why we see bears 567 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: as objects of prehistoric religions. I mean, I think it's 568 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: quite clear that that bear worship in various forms goes 569 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: back a long way. That's one of those where it's 570 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: kind of obvious why that would happen, you know, is 571 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: this kind of like too many people? The bear would 572 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: clearly seem to be like the king of nature. Yeah, 573 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 1: this beast that can also rise up on two legs 574 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: and stand like us, that is seemingly slow and lethargic, 575 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: but then full of energy and ferocity. That also we 576 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: got into this in our Winter People episode a couple 577 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: of years back. A creature then in some cases, uh 578 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: digs its own grave and seems to die and then 579 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: re emerge with life in the spring. Yeah, yeah, it 580 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: does seem quite mystical. You can totally see why a 581 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: bear would be a thing that you would be, you know, 582 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: afraid to speak its name. Speak it's it's dangerous holy name, 583 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: and uh and why if you saw one out in 584 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: the wild. Yeah, you you might think you'd had some 585 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: kind of other worldly encounter. All right, Well, on that note, 586 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 1: let's leave the jetty and take one more break and 587 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: we come back. We'll continue to discuss the topic. Thank you, 588 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 1: thank you. All right, we're back. Now. We've been discussing 589 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: our records of delusions, hallucinations, and other just various strange 590 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: sightings and encounters that seem to occur often at high altitude. 591 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: Some possible explanations for what might be going on physiologically, neurologically, psychologically. There, 592 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: but we're gonna continue with this now. Yeah. So, uh, 593 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,240 Speaker 1: really a couple of other just examples of not mountain climbers, 594 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 1: but individuals encountering some sort of phantom stranger. Well, there 595 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: was a case of uh, Sir Ernest Shackleton um he 596 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 1: uh uh, he encountered such an apparition. Also, Antarctic explore 597 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: Peter Hillary Um actually encountered a presence that manifested as 598 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: the double of his dead there. Oh yeah, the whole 599 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: ancestors appearing. Yeah, which which is important to to think 600 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: to think of when when we're thinking about the mountains 601 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: as a potential uh, you know, place where one can 602 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: encounter the spirits of the departed. Um. So, as I 603 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 1: was reading around about about this, I ran across a 604 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: Scientific American article from on the since presence effect. And 605 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,800 Speaker 1: this was from Michael Schermer. Always a great source to 606 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: turn to. Four discussions of paranormal experiences because he is 607 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,479 Speaker 1: an individual who has has had paranormal experience. I didn't know. Yeah, 608 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: it was, if I am remembering correctly, it was like 609 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: a like a cycling marathon he was on. It was, 610 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: you know, it was like a strenuous exercise and then 611 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: he ended up like seeing an alien, but it was 612 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 1: because of like something he'd been watching previously. He's written 613 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,800 Speaker 1: about it, um quite a bit. But you know, applying 614 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: the skeptical mindset and then understanding how hallucinations occur. Uh, 615 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,760 Speaker 1: you know, how we think about hallucinations after they occur 616 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: takes all this into account. So um, he he touched 617 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: on all of this, and he pointed to four or 618 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: so scientific explanations. Uh that that that he says, really 619 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: really get to the heart of what's going on when 620 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: when people like this encounter um uh, some sort of 621 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,439 Speaker 1: spectral apparition or a third man etcetera. First of all, 622 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: isolation triggers the mind to hallucinate the normal feeling we 623 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: get when we're working or traveling among other people, which 624 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: seems to be a standard here. Uh. Then the rational 625 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 1: cortical control over emotions shuts down due to oxygen deprivation, 626 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 1: sleep deprivation, or exhaustion, and this opens the door for 627 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: inner voices and imaginary companions. Next, he says, are temporal 628 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 1: low body scheme. Now, this is the brain's image of 629 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: our body, and what it's doing is tricked into thinking 630 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 1: you have a double um and ever up for a 631 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 1: game of rationalization and story making. The brain that constructs 632 00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: a plausible explanation for this double's presence, Like there's another person. Uh, 633 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: there's another human being that's covered in furs. Uh, and 634 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: they're next to me. Oh, well, I guess that is 635 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 1: another mountain climber. Likewise, though, I could see where this 636 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 1: would be exactly the kind of thing that could be 637 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: misinterpreted as a yetti, right, because if you're climbing a 638 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 1: mountain in the Himalayas, you're probably bundled up head to toe. 639 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: You probably don't look like a low altitude human anymore. Then, 640 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: there's the mind schema. This is our psychological sense of self, 641 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: and it's simply coordinating independent neural networks to solve the 642 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 1: problem with survival and extreme situations. And the hallucination comes 643 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: out of its function of making this feel like we're 644 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 1: a single mind. Yeah. But then oh, on the on 645 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 1: the sleep deprivation, uh situation. He uh. He points to 646 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:50,240 Speaker 1: Charles A. Lindbergh's Transatlantic flight UM and Shermer quotes his writings, quote, 647 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: the fuselage behind me becomes filled with ghostly presences, vaguely 648 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 1: outlined forms, transparent, moving, riding waitless with me in this plane, 649 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 1: conversing and advising on my flight, discussing problems of my navigation, 650 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: reassuring me, giving me messages of importance unattainable in ordinary life. 651 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,240 Speaker 1: UM Shermer also shared that his own brother in law, 652 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,919 Speaker 1: man by the name of Fred zeal Or Zile, experienced 653 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: a sense presence on both of his everest climbs. The 654 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: first case involved frost bite and the lack of oxygen, 655 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,359 Speaker 1: and the second entailed his collapse from dehydration and hypoxia. 656 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: Quote telling Lee, when I asked his opinion as a 657 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,839 Speaker 1: medical doctor, impossible hemispheric differences to account for such phenomena. 658 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: Fred noted both times the sense was on my right side, 659 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 1: perhaps related to my being left handed. The sense presence 660 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: maybe the left hemisphere interpreter's explanation for right hemisphere anomalies. Oh, 661 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: this takes us back to our split brain episodes, exactly 662 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: the idea of the the interpreter. Now, normally this would 663 00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:00,319 Speaker 1: be the left hemisphere interpreter. This Michael Gazaniga's idea of 664 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 1: the interpreter being this function in the brain that sort 665 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: of ties together disparate neural phenomena into one experience that 666 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: that we sense as a single, unified whole and sort 667 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: of tells a story that makes it all part of 668 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 1: the same game. Where in fact, you know, the hemispheres, 669 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 1: as was shown in the Spilip brain experiments, can behave 670 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:26,399 Speaker 1: quite independently of one another. Yeah, but but we've got 671 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: this thing that Gazaniga calls the interpreter, that says, no, no, no, 672 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: that's all you. It's just you. So two things come 673 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: to mind and discussing all of this. First of all, 674 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: is i'm alway, I'm anytime we discuss altitudes and pressure, 675 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: I'm reminded of the fact that human beings are not 676 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: a creature that evolved to thrive on the earth. They're 677 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: they're a creature that that evolved to thrive in a 678 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 1: very thin atmospheric layer on the Earth, and and then 679 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 1: only within certain ranges. And when we get out of 680 00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: those ranges, when we get out of there are our 681 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: layer that we we thrive in, we can run into problems. 682 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: The other thing I'm reminded of is, Joe, have you 683 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: ever been to a like a children's musical performance, preferably 684 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: a band or an orchestra. I've been in that performance, 685 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: been to one too. So you know how ideally if 686 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: everybody's doing doing their job and the you know, the 687 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: conductors pulling it all together, Uh, there's a unity. You know, 688 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: they're performing this this piece sometimes, but in other cases, 689 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,959 Speaker 1: things kind of drift and fall apart. And I feel 690 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 1: like like that's kind of what's what's being described here. Uh, 691 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: at at high altitude, like the the the orchestral performance 692 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: that is our mind state is is drifting a little bit. 693 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: It is like it is. It's it's not so much, 694 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: you know, a professional level of performance anymore. It is 695 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,839 Speaker 1: a middle school band performance. And things are getting out 696 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,080 Speaker 1: of sync, things are getting out of whack, and then 697 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,480 Speaker 1: what does that mean when we are the performance. That's 698 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 1: a really good analogy because in that case, I mean 699 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 1: when you've got Even if Gazaniga's interpreter theory is not 700 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 1: exactly right there, there clearly is a way in which 701 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: the mind, that the human brain, is performing itself for 702 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,239 Speaker 1: an audience of itself, like you in a way are 703 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: the audience of what your brain is doing. And so 704 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,560 Speaker 1: you're there watching how the show is going and if 705 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: the show is not going right, you you are sensing 706 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: it even though you are also the thing that's messing up. 707 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 1: All right, So I'm not a mountain climber. I am 708 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: not a mountaineer. I've visited mountains. I've had I think 709 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: I discussed like maybe a very limited reaction to an 710 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 1: increase in altitude that was slightly noteworthy. But I know 711 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: we have to have some mountaineers out there who are 712 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: listening to the to these episodes or listeners regular listeners 713 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 1: to the podcast, So we would obviously love to hear 714 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,840 Speaker 1: about your experiences at how high altitude? Have have you 715 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,359 Speaker 1: ever experienced anything like what we've we're discussing here or 716 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,520 Speaker 1: have you simply have you never experienced it, or or 717 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: perhaps you can just speak to the awe and majesty 718 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: of the mountains. Perhaps you've visited some of the sacred 719 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 1: mountains that we mentioned in the first episode, and you 720 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 1: have a particular favorite you wanted to discuss. We'd love 721 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 1: to hear from you. Another question I have is, so, 722 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: outside of Lord of the Rings, outside of skeletor Snake 723 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 1: Mountain and Masters of the Universe and the Traveling Mountain, 724 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,360 Speaker 1: Fortress of the Beast and craull Um, are there evil 725 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 1: mountains in mythologies and folklore that we uh we neglected 726 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,759 Speaker 1: to mention because I was I was looking around for him, 727 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:40,839 Speaker 1: and I, like, I say, the mountains tend to be 728 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: uh you know, part of just a sacred uh ecosystem, 729 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 1: sacred geography, or you know, their home to various beings. 730 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,600 Speaker 1: But like this idea of there being like a mountain doom, 731 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:56,800 Speaker 1: a place of of evil, you know, or or or 732 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,760 Speaker 1: a place that has been occupied solely by an evil force. 733 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,320 Speaker 1: I just didn't see as much of that, like, aside 734 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,839 Speaker 1: from a few mountain trolls and a few crampuses here 735 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: and there, umu and certainly a few things that could 736 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:12,919 Speaker 1: maybe be classified as monsters that are thriving amid other 737 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:17,279 Speaker 1: magical creatures and spirits at say Kunlan Mountain. Uh, you know, 738 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,319 Speaker 1: what are some potential examples here? I don't know. That's 739 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 1: a good question. I'm sure there must be mountains that 740 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: are believed to be Hell or something like that, a 741 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,360 Speaker 1: place of evil gods, and that our physical mountains on Earth. 742 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,239 Speaker 1: But I didn't. I don't think I came across any. 743 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 1: So bring us your monsters, is what I'm saying. Bring 744 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:38,880 Speaker 1: them unto us so that we might see them and 745 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 1: consider them. In the meantime, if you want to check 746 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: out more episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, head 747 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:44,680 Speaker 1: on over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 748 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: That's the mother ship. That's where you find all the episodes. 749 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 1: You find links out to social media, and hey, if 750 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 1: you want to support the show, the best thing you 751 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: can do is to rate and review us wherever you 752 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 1: have the power to do so. Rate, review, leave us 753 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 1: some stars, Leave us a nice comment. Really helps out 754 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,080 Speaker 1: the algorithm and helps spread the word about the show. 755 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,799 Speaker 1: Totally huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producers 756 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 1: Alex Williams and try Harrison. If you would like to 757 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: get in touch with us directly with feedback about this episode, 758 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 1: or to suggest a topic for the future, or just 759 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: to say hello, you can email us at contact at 760 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:28,480 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow 761 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,839 Speaker 1: Your Mind is a production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. 762 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,160 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeart 763 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,840 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 764 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:45,759 Speaker 1: favorite shows.