WEBVTT - Melting Charlottesville’s Robert E Lee Statue 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:05.000 Cool Zone Media. 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:08.560 Welcome back to It Could Happen Here, your favorite podcast 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:11.520 for a daily dose of dystopia. I am once again 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:14.400 you're a guest host Molly Conger. Today, I'm talking to 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.120 a good friend of mine in one of the brilliant 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:20.200 minds behind the melting of Charlottesville's Roberty Lee statue, Doctor 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:22.000 Julaane Schmidt, is going to tell us a little bit 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:24.119 about the history of the statue, from its planning and 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:27.960 placement to its current state, melted into ingots in an 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:32.360 undisclosed location. I'm joined today by doctor Julaane Schmidt, a 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:34.920 professor of Religious Studies at the University of Virginia, the 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:37.560 director of the Memory Project at the University of Virginia's 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:40.680 Karsh Institute of Democracy, and a steering committee member at 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:43.960 the Swords into Plowshare's Project. As both a scholar and 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:45.920 an activist, doctor Schmidt has been a leading voice in 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.280 the Charlottesville community for racial justice and against the Confederate 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:52.400 monuments that once stood here. The Swords into Plowsher's Project 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:55.280 announced back in October that they had successfully dismantled and 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.640 melted down the bronze statue of Roberty Lee that once 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:01.760 loomed over the Market Street Park in downtown Charlottesville. Thank 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:03.440 you so much for joining me today to talk about 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:06.200 the past, present, and future of that hunk of bronze. 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.039 Thanks for having me, Mollie. It's great to great to 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:10.840 talk with you about this. 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:14.000 I don't think i've called you Professor Schmidt since two 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:15.800 thousand and eight when I took one of your classes. 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:18.600 It's been a while. It's been a while. Yeah, yeah, 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:21.720 Now we just call each other comrades, you know, because 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:24.440 we're out there on the streets and in city council 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:26.360 and you know, doing the things. 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:29.160 So before we get to the final fate of that 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:31.919 melted bronze, I want to ground this in the history 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:35.480 of that particular object. Right, This isn't just any Confederate monument. 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:38.000 This is the statue that made Charlottesville household name, the 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:40.720 statue that brought unite the right here, the statue that 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:43.920 killed someone. It's a statue that had history in that 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:46.640 park for a century before it came down and before 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:49.160 it was removed. You led some really incredible walking tours 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:51.200 of the downtown parks to try to tell the story 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:54.720 of the way those statues existed in those spaces for generations, 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:56.720 why they were there, what they meant, what impact they 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.320 had on the landscape and the people in the community. 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:01.280 I think I went on about a dozen of those 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:03.480 walking tours, and I learned something new every single time. 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:06.400 So can you talk a little bit about the political 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:09.560 atmosphere in nineteen twenty four when that statue first went up. 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:12.920 Yeah, well it should, you know, just kind of to 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:16.040 back up a little bit, like the history of Charlottesville, Virginia. 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:20.120 At around the time of the Civil War, over half 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:23.160 of the population of the local population was enslaved in 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:27.600 Charlottesville and surrounding Albmarle County, and black people were actually 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:31.440 the majority of the population of Charlottesville until about eighteen 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:36.720 ninety and then it has been on this steady decline, 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.680 you know, since then. So to think about it, if 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:44.079 you look at the history of reconstruction in Charlottesville, black 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:47.240 people came out and registered to vote and got politically 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:52.560 organized very quickly in the eighteen sixties already, and were 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:57.280 very influential in electing a black delegate from Charlottesville to 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:01.320 go to the Constitutional Convention. This is when in order 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:04.960 to rejoin the Union, all of the former Confederate states 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:08.440 had to get their state constitutions up to snuff, and 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:13.280 so Virginia, as did the other former Confederate states, you know, 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:19.320 had a constitutional convention. And our delegate from Charlottesville was 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:22.440 James T. S. Taylor. He was a black man from Charlottesville. 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.600 He'd been in the United States Colored Troops, and he 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:29.880 had a coalition had coalesced around him of some progressive 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:34.040 whites or savvy savvy whites, you know, that one through 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.680 their lot with him and former enslaved people and went 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.360 and you know, and represented us and put you know, 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:44.240 Charlottesville in the mix for starting a new state constitution 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:48.120 in Virginia, for finally getting public schools. You know, that's 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:50.560 one thing that we can thank, you know, all those 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.960 reconstruction governments around the South, you know, forgetting us those 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:56.360 public schools that we wouldn't have otherwise had that we 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.520 didn't have before. You know. So I say all that 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.160 back that if you read the historical sources of the 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:09.200 time during reconstruction and post reconstruction in Charlottesville, the white 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:12.560 elites were quite upset with the state of affairs that 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:17.279 had emerged after the Civil War, in which formerly enslaved 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:21.840 people were in leadership compatity and political leadership, you know. 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:27.240 And so when you look at the history of you know, 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:31.440 then finally as as the new you know, there was 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:35.960 a Reconstruction era constitution that started all those wonderful things 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:39.400 such as you know, public schools, you know, and voting 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:43.520 rights for black men. You know. But then as the 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:46.400 Neil Confederates or the Confederate sympathizers start to get the 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:49.000 upper hand again at the end of Reconstruction, and in 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.000 Virginia that's you know, more or less in the in 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:54.680 the eighteen eighties, you know, and then there's this steady 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:58.040 imposition of Jim Crow, you know that's going into you know, 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:01.440 in Richmond they put in their giant General Lee statue 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:05.000 in eighteen ninety, you know there, and then in nineteen 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:08.400 oh two there's finally there was this final push that 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.800 pushed black people out of political office in Virginia, and 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:15.120 in nineteen oh two, a new Jim Crow state Constitution 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.400 was put into effect in nineteen oh two. And so 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:20.320 you have to when you think about all of these 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:24.320 statues being installed, we have to see it as this 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:29.279 it's really resentment politics, you know, that's come about. That 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:33.680 is if you look at these speeches that are delivered 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:37.280 at the installation ceremonies of these statues, and this is 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:40.880 where I'm getting to our General Lee Statue in Charlottesville 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:44.599 specifically with this, you go back and look at those 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:50.240 at the occasion for the day, and these these installation ceremonies, 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:54.919 they were a time for the neo Confederate organizations, the 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:59.080 hosting organizations in our case, the United Daughters of the Confederacy, 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.800 the United Conveterate Veterans, and the Sons of Confederate Veterans. Okay, 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:05.480 we're the hosts, you know for this event. And this 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:07.839 is a two or three day occasion. So there's like 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:11.640 delegations coming in from all over the state, you know, 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:14.120 and you know there's this build up, you know, in 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:17.800 the days ahead, you know, leading up to the installation. 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.800 This was in May of nineteen twenty four, you know, 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:23.640 so you see, oh, this delegation has arrived from Rowanoak, 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:25.960 and now the governor is coming in and now this 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:28.080 and now you know, and so you know, the town 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:30.200 is just a twitter. You know that this that they 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:37.719 are hosting the state wide reunion of the United Confederate Veterans. 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:39.839 And there hardly are anymore at this time. They're you know, 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:42.040 quite elderly at this point. So there, you know, there's 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:45.280 quite this you know, uh celebration. And this is also 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:47.680 an annual meeting of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. And 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:53.160 so the fact that little Charlottesville is hosting a statewide reunion, 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:56.240 you know, of the state wide of all the chapters 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:58.920 you know, of these neo Confederate veterans is a big deal. 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:02.479 And then and then you know they're doing this, you know, 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:06.960 and within this context is when the unveiling of this 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:10.400 statue is occurring, you see. And so it's this, it's 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:14.360 this whole build up of kind of lost cause nostalgia, 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:18.679 which which is occurring. And in the speeches at the 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:25.840 Lee statue unveiling ceremony, it's very instructive to listen to 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:29.559 what is being said. You know. You have, of course, 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:32.600 you know, kind of local dignitaries and statewide you know 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:37.600 dignitaries are there. The National Commander of the Sons of 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:41.240 Confederate Veterans is there. He gives a speech. He was 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:44.520 also a klansman, you know. You know, so this says 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:47.960 something there that you know, nineteen twenties Charlottesville. You know, 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:51.920 elites were not averse to rubbing shoulders with a known klansman, 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:54.080 you know, who had been invited to give a speech. 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:58.880 You know, other invited guests. One was a minister who 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.360 was a gradu what of the University of Virginia, and 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:05.160 it was you know, just kind of revealing, you know 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:08.240 what he said in his in his speech, you know, 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:12.480 when he was talking about he said that that the 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:18.200 days of reconstruction were worse than war. You know, so 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:23.480 this right exactly, Yeah, does beg the question, and that yeah, 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:25.480 goes without saying, of course that this is you know, 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:28.400 almost exclusively a white audience and you know, the white 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:30.600 school kids. School has been canceled for the day, the 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:34.280 university as classes you know, canceled for the day, and 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:36.679 you know, the businesses are closed. I mean, this is 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:40.440 just you know, quite the community event that's going on. So, yeah, 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:44.960 so reconstruction was worse than war. You know, we're celebrating today, 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:47.840 you know, the you know, the spirit of Lea, the 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:50.960 regeneration you know of our values and you know, there's 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:57.280 just a lot of of conversation in these in these inaugurations, ceremonies, 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:00.559 you know for the unveiling of these statues that hearkened 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:05.160 to rebirth and regeneration, and you know, and also you know, 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.560 kind of recalling you know, the days of old, you know, 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:11.480 and the and the values you know of our veterans 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:13.120 you know who are now you know of course in 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:16.000 dwindling number, you know, these Confederate veterans who are there. 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:19.480 And so this and as I said, there's been this 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:23.080 whole build up you know, for days and days, you know, 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:25.320 I mean of course for the planning committee, this has 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:27.320 been going on for weeks and months, you know, the 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:30.680 fundraising and you know, reserving you know blocks you know 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.079 at the hotels and you know, and all guesthouses and 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:35.720 all this kind of thing you know, banquet halls, et cetera. 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:41.360 You know. But it's it's also revealing that this installation 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:45.439 ceremony for the Lee statue, it is booke nded with 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:50.840 clan activity and uptick in clan activity before and after 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:57.720 the installation ceremony. And why while we don't have well 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.000 we do know, but you know one one clansman who 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:04.280 you know, the Commander Lee, no relation to the General Lee, 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:08.120 but uh but the president of the Sons of the 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.920 Confederate veterans, you know. But but to just see all 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:16.920 of this uptick in lost cause nostalgia and then these 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:21.199 these acts of intimidation of you know, clan rallies, clan 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:25.680 posters that were you know, put flyers around town, you know, uh, 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:29.640 and this sort of thing. It just it they're the 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:33.600 atmosphere of intimidation. You know that this must have been 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:38.120 for black residents you know of the time. Uh, you know, 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:41.000 it just it really gives you pause, you know, just 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:45.680 just seeing how public space was commandeered, you know by 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:49.240 these people, these Neil Confederates, you know, to kind of 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:52.400 uh relive what they considered, you know, kind of the 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:56.160 glory days you know, of the nation you know, and 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.120 the kind of values to which they want to return, 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:02.280 you know, and and and this sort of thing. So yeah, 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:05.640 so this is going on, you know in the nineteen twenties, 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:09.280 as you know, Charlottesville is you know, locked into Jim 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:13.440 Crow by then, you know, and we're twenty two years 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:17.080 into that Jim Crow State constitution. You know, this is 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.720 the mail u you know in which in which this 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:23.120 is taking place. Now. Of course, black people have their 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:26.440 own institutions, you know that they've founded, you know, namely churches, 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:30.640 the Jefferson School, African American what's now the African American 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:34.560 Heritage Center, but the Jefferson School, which was a school 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:38.840 for black children, and the founding of the High school 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:41.960 of a black high school. So this was you know, 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:47.320 the black community had its own nodes of organizational strength, 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:52.200 you know, and goings on that were happening even as 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:54.920 you know, there were these pressures you going on with 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.720 the consolidation of Jim Crow should also mention that, you know, 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:02.760 at this at around same time in spring of nineteen 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:09.280 twenty four was the passage of the Virginia Racial Integrity Act, 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:13.760 and this was the kind of the codification of the 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:18.680 so called one Drop Rule, which designated anyone with a 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:27.160 perceived ad mixture of African American or Native American ancestry 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:29.760 to be designated as colored, you know, and kind of 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:34.800 bifurcating the population of Virginia into two categories white or colored. 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:37.800 And so this is also occurring, you know, in nineteen 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:39.680 twenty four. There's a very you know, there's very much 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:44.320 of a legal you know, a kind of strengthening, you 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:47.120 know of in terms of the tools that are being 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:52.600 used to separate the races quote unquote, you know, and 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:55.280 what we're seeing then in the parks, you know, in 0:12:55.280 --> 0:13:00.880 our public spaces were you know, kind of designating what 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:03.800 we're well, not public spaces, I mean they were you know, 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:06.120 kind of designated you know, almost shrine like, you know, 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:12.400 as white spaces, you know, and that this is it's 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:16.319 a kind of broadcasting of who's in charge, is what's 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:16.800 going on? 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:19.760 Right, I think you know today the sons of Confederate 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:23.720 Veterans very much separate themselves from the clan. Right, there 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:26.800 were a heritage organization. We're not the clan, but you 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.080 were talking about this sort of clan activity leading up 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.440 to the unveiling of the statue. And it's actually just 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:34.679 looking back this morning at some of the archival newspapers 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.520 from that week. And so when the day the statue 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:39.680 was placed, you know a few weeks before the unveiling, 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:41.320 it was still covered, it was shrouded, you know, it's 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:43.560 leading up to the big day. So in the front 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.120 page of the Daily Progress the day that the statue 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:49.160 was put in the park, that little snippet appears in 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.040 the newspaper, right next to a headline about cross burning. 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:55.560 These things are happening on at the same time, right, 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:58.160 And there was absolutely a big clan march through town 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:00.400 that week. And I think one of the it's easy 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:04.679 to forget that these historical moments were experienced by people 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:07.240 whose words that we still have, like people who were 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:09.559 living in this moment. I think one of one moment 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:11.800 in your historical tour that really has stuck with me 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.120 all these years is an anecdote about John West, who 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:17.800 is for the listener as a man was born into 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.800 slavery in this era, was one of the largest black 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:24.160 landowners in the area, was a successful businessman, and when 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.760 the klan marched by that week, you know, they're wearing 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:28.360 their hoods, you don't know who they are. It's you know, 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.400 it's mysterious, it's intimidating. But he knew who every single 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:34.920 clansman was because he was their barber, and he recognized 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:37.520 their shoes. And that just feels so intimate to me, right, 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:40.520 that he's he's looking at the shoes of these men 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:42.200 that he knows, and then tomorrow they're going to come 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:43.640 in for a shave and a haircut and he has 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:44.920 to say, you know, yes, sir, thank you. 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:47.360 Sir, that's right, that's right. And so if you can 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:50.040 just imagine like you know, and here you know John West. 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.560 You know, so here's one of the most you know, 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:58.360 influential Black residents of Charlottesville at that time, and he 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:01.200 has to live yeah in you know that there's this 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:04.600 this atmosphere of intimidation that you that, Yeah, his clients 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:06.400 are coming in, you know, they're coming in every ten 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.120 days or fourteen days to get a get a trim, 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:11.400 get a you know, touch up, you know here and there, 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:16.560 and yeah, and and he knows that these you know 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:20.280 that that these are you know, the folks who are 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:25.080 kind of maintaining you know that this this public order, 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:29.320 you know that is so uh. You know that you know, 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:31.400 you better not step out of line. And so just 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:36.480 to have one's public space, you know, be demarcated, you know, 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:42.440 in such a demonstrative way, you know, in a monumental way. 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:47.240 You know, really yeah exactly is is uh, it really 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:51.000 illustrates what's going on, you know, and even in you know, 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:54.120 relationships like that, you know that that are so like 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.320 you know, intimate a barber and a client, you know, 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:00.720 and and knowing you know what you're as are up 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.760 to you know, and how you better stay in line. 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:17.640 You know, it's scary, that's what that statue was here, 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:20.680 right for almost a century, So skipping ahead that century, 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.960 right when the statue finally came down in twenty twenty one, 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:27.600 so not too long ago, right, So the city solicited 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:29.520 proposals for what was to be done with it, right. 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:31.640 A lot of cities put them into storage or moved 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:35.480 them to battlefields or museums didn't want them. People say, well, 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:37.960 why can't it go to a music museums didn't want it, right. 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:43.360 Yeah, So because of my work, I get pulled in 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:49.360 on a lot of different statue statue related consultations, let's 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:51.800 put it that way. And I was on the George 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:55.440 Rogers Clark Committee at the University of Virginia when the 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:58.120 university was trying to decide what to do with a 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:02.040 very hideous called it the Genocide Trophy. It was a 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:06.120 statue of the George Rogers Clark, the conqueror of the Northwest. 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:09.400 It literally said that on the facade, you know. And 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:13.200 so we were in consultation with native tribes. We were 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:19.280 contacting the various tribal nations who suffered the onslaught of 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:22.479 the so called Northwest campaign. So these tribes that are 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:26.280 in what is now Illinois and Ohio, et cetera, you know, 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:28.919 and just asking them, you know, would you like to 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:31.520 kind of weigh in, you know, on this, and you know, 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.280 really sad genocide is a real thing. Some folks who 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.879 are just no longer there, you know, or you know, 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:40.959 were you know, became such a remnant, you know, as 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:42.800 they were so decimated that you know, they kind of 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.360 you know, morphed into you know, other tribes others were 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:49.000 you know, went on you know later on to you know, 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:53.159 to Oklahoma or other places. You know, just dispersal, you know, 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:56.040 really was you know. You know. So we're in this 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:57.960 you know, kind of year long process trying to figure 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:01.080 out what to do with UVa's own statue there, you know, 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:03.720 also a gift of Paul Goodlow McIntyre, you know, the 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.119 same donor who gave the least statue to the city, 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.560 gave this Steorge Rogers Clark statue to the university. And 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:16.440 so in doing that committee work, we made appointments with 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:18.560 all the big players all that, you know, and here 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:21.359 we are. We're from the University of Virginia, you know, 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:25.560 and we've got this, you know, big big monument here, 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:28.800 you know, the Smithsonian, the you know, and you know, 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:33.120 we talked to not about this one, but in another instance, 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:37.160 talk to you know, the Civil War Museum's battle Fields. 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:37.080 You know. 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.520 I mean, we contacted all the responsible you know, the 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:43.080 folks who are going to curate this in a in 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:46.200 a responsible way, you know, because you know that's it 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:49.680 is a monumental work of art. You know, it has 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:53.680 stood here for a century. It does have historical value 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.280 of a sort, you know. And I mean and you know, 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:58.680 and as someone who has you know, teaches history and 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:03.960 research's history, that's my that's my inclination. My initial inclination is, oh, yeah, 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:05.840 well we should preserve I mean, that's you know, kind 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:09.040 of where I go to. But the problem is it's 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:12.560 a very practical one. This is a material object that 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:15.719 is taking up space, literal and figurative space in the world. 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:18.399 It's six six thousand pounds. 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:22.160 Yeah, yeah, the very materiality of it. It is taking 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:25.840 up space, and you you have to figure out what 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.880 space is it going to inhabit. This is a very 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:33.840 practical question. If it's not in your park anymore, where's 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:37.080 it going to be? We contacted all these museums, you know, 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:40.000 and in several you know, different consultations. I've been a 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:42.160 part of where we've been trying to get rid of statues. 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:48.800 Nobody wants them, Nobody responsible wants them. And you know, 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:50.959 and even if they did have an inclination to want 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:53.040 to do just the expense of it, you know, who 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:56.240 wants to reinforce their floors to put a you know, 0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:03.680 century old you know, artistically not exemplary, you know, monument 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:05.520 in it, you know, and then care for I mean, 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:09.840 museums have very limited budgets, they're nonprofit organizations. Why should 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:14.440 they be expending all this energy? I love the My 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:19.720 colleague Aaron Thompson from John Jay College and Cuney, you know, 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.359 she's an art crime professor, and she said, you know, 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:25.879 she talked with somebody at the Smithsonian who said something 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:30.760 to the effect that, you know, we're not America's attic 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:35.919 for racist arts. That's not our role. It's like, you know, 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:39.199 it kind of does throw back the responsibility to individual 0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:41.760 communities too. It's like, you know, you have a part 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:44.240 to play in this, you know. And so anyway, yeah, 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:46.840 so we tried to do the responsible thing. We contacted 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:49.520 all all the responsible actors out there. They don't want them, 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:54.280 And so then the question becomes, Okay, the city also 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:56.840 doesn't want it sitting on its back lot for forever 0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:00.400 in perpetuity. You know, They've got things, you know, they've 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:02.320 got equipment there, they've got things that you know, this 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:05.520 shouldn't be sitting there. Where is it going to go? Again? 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:08.040 This is the material object that exists in the world. 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.840 It is a problem, you know, like what physical space 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.840 is it going to occupy? We're just such brute practicality here, 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:16.760 and I don't think people quite get what it means 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:19.880 to deal with this. And the only people who want 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:23.399 it are the very people who shouldn't have it, you know, 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:27.240 who want to take this object that's caused us so 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:31.160 much pain and to make a shrine out of it, 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:36.359 you know, that would continue to attract bad actors, you know, 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:39.360 and that it would you know. And I'm a religious 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:41.919 studies scholar, so when I use I don't use the 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:46.840 word shrine lightly. I know what kinds of activities you know, uh, 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:49.439 these engender, you know, and the sorts of emotions that 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:52.280 are you know, evoked, you know, in the ceremonies around 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:54.600 you know, objects that are that are held to be sacred. 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:57.160 You know that that attract you know, kind of devotees, 0:21:57.240 --> 0:21:59.800 you know, and so you really have to think about 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:03.399 what does it mean to be a responsible ethical actor? 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:04.480 You know. 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:07.920 It's like now we're we're in grown up world. Now, 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:09.960 it's like, okay, it's like we want you know, it's 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:12.359 like there is a material object, where are we going 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:14.359 to put it? It's like have an adjunct car, what 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:15.640 do you do with it? You just let it sit 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:17.919 in your driveway and make your neighbors mad at you. 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:21.320 Right, And these Confederate statues are sort of the junk 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:24.479 cars of the lost cause, right, because they're not rare, right, Like, 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:27.120 you know, especially right after Unite the Right, a bunch 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:29.440 of cities, all of a sudden, we're like, we got 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:31.320 to get rid of these things. And so suddenly the 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:34.439 market is flooded with Confederate statues. Where are you going 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:34.920 to put them? 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:38.960 That's right at that and that is the question. And 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:42.159 they are And I've used this this metaphor before, the 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:48.880 metaphor of toxic waste. You know, it's not responsible to say, oh, 0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:52.560