1
00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,000
Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

2
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,560
Speaker 2: Welcome back to It Could Happen Here, your favorite podcast

3
00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,520
Speaker 2: for a daily dose of dystopia. I am once again

4
00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,400
Speaker 2: you're a guest host Molly Conger. Today, I'm talking to

5
00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,120
Speaker 2: a good friend of mine in one of the brilliant

6
00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:20,200
Speaker 2: minds behind the melting of Charlottesville's Roberty Lee statue, Doctor

7
00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,000
Speaker 2: Julaane Schmidt, is going to tell us a little bit

8
00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,119
Speaker 2: about the history of the statue, from its planning and

9
00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,960
Speaker 2: placement to its current state, melted into ingots in an

10
00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:32,360
Speaker 2: undisclosed location. I'm joined today by doctor Julaane Schmidt, a

11
00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:34,920
Speaker 2: professor of Religious Studies at the University of Virginia, the

12
00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,560
Speaker 2: director of the Memory Project at the University of Virginia's

13
00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,680
Speaker 2: Karsh Institute of Democracy, and a steering committee member at

14
00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,960
Speaker 2: the Swords into Plowshare's Project. As both a scholar and

15
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:45,920
Speaker 2: an activist, doctor Schmidt has been a leading voice in

16
00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,280
Speaker 2: the Charlottesville community for racial justice and against the Confederate

17
00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,400
Speaker 2: monuments that once stood here. The Swords into Plowsher's Project

18
00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,280
Speaker 2: announced back in October that they had successfully dismantled and

19
00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,640
Speaker 2: melted down the bronze statue of Roberty Lee that once

20
00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,760
Speaker 2: loomed over the Market Street Park in downtown Charlottesville. Thank

21
00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,440
Speaker 2: you so much for joining me today to talk about

22
00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,200
Speaker 2: the past, present, and future of that hunk of bronze.

23
00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,039
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me, Mollie. It's great to great to

24
00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:10,840
Speaker 3: talk with you about this.

25
00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,000
Speaker 2: I don't think i've called you Professor Schmidt since two

26
00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:15,800
Speaker 2: thousand and eight when I took one of your classes.

27
00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,600
Speaker 3: It's been a while. It's been a while. Yeah, yeah,

28
00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,720
Speaker 3: Now we just call each other comrades, you know, because

29
00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,440
Speaker 3: we're out there on the streets and in city council

30
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:26,360
Speaker 3: and you know, doing the things.

31
00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,160
Speaker 2: So before we get to the final fate of that

32
00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,919
Speaker 2: melted bronze, I want to ground this in the history

33
00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,480
Speaker 2: of that particular object. Right, This isn't just any Confederate monument.

34
00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,000
Speaker 2: This is the statue that made Charlottesville household name, the

35
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,720
Speaker 2: statue that brought unite the right here, the statue that

36
00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,920
Speaker 2: killed someone. It's a statue that had history in that

37
00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,640
Speaker 2: park for a century before it came down and before

38
00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,160
Speaker 2: it was removed. You led some really incredible walking tours

39
00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,200
Speaker 2: of the downtown parks to try to tell the story

40
00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,720
Speaker 2: of the way those statues existed in those spaces for generations,

41
00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:56,720
Speaker 2: why they were there, what they meant, what impact they

42
00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,320
Speaker 2: had on the landscape and the people in the community.

43
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,280
Speaker 2: I think I went on about a dozen of those

44
00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,480
Speaker 2: walking tours, and I learned something new every single time.

45
00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,400
Speaker 2: So can you talk a little bit about the political

46
00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,560
Speaker 2: atmosphere in nineteen twenty four when that statue first went up.

47
00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:12,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, well it should, you know, just kind of to

48
00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,040
Speaker 3: back up a little bit, like the history of Charlottesville, Virginia.

49
00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,120
Speaker 3: At around the time of the Civil War, over half

50
00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,160
Speaker 3: of the population of the local population was enslaved in

51
00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,600
Speaker 3: Charlottesville and surrounding Albmarle County, and black people were actually

52
00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,440
Speaker 3: the majority of the population of Charlottesville until about eighteen

53
00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:36,720
Speaker 3: ninety and then it has been on this steady decline,

54
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,680
Speaker 3: you know, since then. So to think about it, if

55
00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:44,079
Speaker 3: you look at the history of reconstruction in Charlottesville, black

56
00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,240
Speaker 3: people came out and registered to vote and got politically

57
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:52,560
Speaker 3: organized very quickly in the eighteen sixties already, and were

58
00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:57,280
Speaker 3: very influential in electing a black delegate from Charlottesville to

59
00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,320
Speaker 3: go to the Constitutional Convention. This is when in order

60
00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,960
Speaker 3: to rejoin the Union, all of the former Confederate states

61
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,440
Speaker 3: had to get their state constitutions up to snuff, and

62
00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:13,280
Speaker 3: so Virginia, as did the other former Confederate states, you know,

63
00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:19,320
Speaker 3: had a constitutional convention. And our delegate from Charlottesville was

64
00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,440
Speaker 3: James T. S. Taylor. He was a black man from Charlottesville.

65
00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,600
Speaker 3: He'd been in the United States Colored Troops, and he

66
00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,880
Speaker 3: had a coalition had coalesced around him of some progressive

67
00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 3: whites or savvy savvy whites, you know, that one through

68
00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,680
Speaker 3: their lot with him and former enslaved people and went

69
00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,360
Speaker 3: and you know, and represented us and put you know,

70
00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:44,240
Speaker 3: Charlottesville in the mix for starting a new state constitution

71
00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,120
Speaker 3: in Virginia, for finally getting public schools. You know, that's

72
00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,560
Speaker 3: one thing that we can thank, you know, all those

73
00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,960
Speaker 3: reconstruction governments around the South, you know, forgetting us those

74
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,360
Speaker 3: public schools that we wouldn't have otherwise had that we

75
00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,520
Speaker 3: didn't have before. You know. So I say all that

76
00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,160
Speaker 3: back that if you read the historical sources of the

77
00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:09,200
Speaker 3: time during reconstruction and post reconstruction in Charlottesville, the white

78
00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,560
Speaker 3: elites were quite upset with the state of affairs that

79
00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:17,279
Speaker 3: had emerged after the Civil War, in which formerly enslaved

80
00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,840
Speaker 3: people were in leadership compatity and political leadership, you know.

81
00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:27,240
Speaker 3: And so when you look at the history of you know,

82
00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,440
Speaker 3: then finally as as the new you know, there was

83
00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:35,960
Speaker 3: a Reconstruction era constitution that started all those wonderful things

84
00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,400
Speaker 3: such as you know, public schools, you know, and voting

85
00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,520
Speaker 3: rights for black men. You know. But then as the

86
00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,400
Speaker 3: Neil Confederates or the Confederate sympathizers start to get the

87
00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,000
Speaker 3: upper hand again at the end of Reconstruction, and in

88
00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,000
Speaker 3: Virginia that's you know, more or less in the in

89
00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,680
Speaker 3: the eighteen eighties, you know, and then there's this steady

90
00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,040
Speaker 3: imposition of Jim Crow, you know that's going into you know,

91
00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,440
Speaker 3: in Richmond they put in their giant General Lee statue

92
00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,000
Speaker 3: in eighteen ninety, you know there, and then in nineteen

93
00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,400
Speaker 3: oh two there's finally there was this final push that

94
00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,800
Speaker 3: pushed black people out of political office in Virginia, and

95
00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,120
Speaker 3: in nineteen oh two, a new Jim Crow state Constitution

96
00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,400
Speaker 3: was put into effect in nineteen oh two. And so

97
00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:20,320
Speaker 3: you have to when you think about all of these

98
00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,320
Speaker 3: statues being installed, we have to see it as this

99
00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,279
Speaker 3: it's really resentment politics, you know, that's come about. That

100
00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,680
Speaker 3: is if you look at these speeches that are delivered

101
00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,280
Speaker 3: at the installation ceremonies of these statues, and this is

102
00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,880
Speaker 3: where I'm getting to our General Lee Statue in Charlottesville

103
00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,599
Speaker 3: specifically with this, you go back and look at those

104
00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:50,240
Speaker 3: at the occasion for the day, and these these installation ceremonies,

105
00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:54,919
Speaker 3: they were a time for the neo Confederate organizations, the

106
00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:59,080
Speaker 3: hosting organizations in our case, the United Daughters of the Confederacy,

107
00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,800
Speaker 3: the United Conveterate Veterans, and the Sons of Confederate Veterans. Okay,

108
00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,480
Speaker 3: we're the hosts, you know for this event. And this

109
00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:07,839
Speaker 3: is a two or three day occasion. So there's like

110
00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,640
Speaker 3: delegations coming in from all over the state, you know,

111
00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,120
Speaker 3: and you know there's this build up, you know, in

112
00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,800
Speaker 3: the days ahead, you know, leading up to the installation.

113
00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,800
Speaker 3: This was in May of nineteen twenty four, you know,

114
00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,640
Speaker 3: so you see, oh, this delegation has arrived from Rowanoak,

115
00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:25,960
Speaker 3: and now the governor is coming in and now this

116
00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,080
Speaker 3: and now you know, and so you know, the town

117
00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,200
Speaker 3: is just a twitter. You know that this that they

118
00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:37,719
Speaker 3: are hosting the state wide reunion of the United Confederate Veterans.

119
00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,839
Speaker 3: And there hardly are anymore at this time. They're you know,

120
00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,040
Speaker 3: quite elderly at this point. So there, you know, there's

121
00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,280
Speaker 3: quite this you know, uh celebration. And this is also

122
00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:47,680
Speaker 3: an annual meeting of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. And

123
00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:53,160
Speaker 3: so the fact that little Charlottesville is hosting a statewide reunion,

124
00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,240
Speaker 3: you know, of the state wide of all the chapters

125
00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,920
Speaker 3: you know, of these neo Confederate veterans is a big deal.

126
00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,479
Speaker 3: And then and then you know they're doing this, you know,

127
00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,960
Speaker 3: and within this context is when the unveiling of this

128
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,400
Speaker 3: statue is occurring, you see. And so it's this, it's

129
00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,360
Speaker 3: this whole build up of kind of lost cause nostalgia,

130
00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,679
Speaker 3: which which is occurring. And in the speeches at the

131
00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:25,840
Speaker 3: Lee statue unveiling ceremony, it's very instructive to listen to

132
00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,559
Speaker 3: what is being said. You know. You have, of course,

133
00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,600
Speaker 3: you know, kind of local dignitaries and statewide you know

134
00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:37,600
Speaker 3: dignitaries are there. The National Commander of the Sons of

135
00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,240
Speaker 3: Confederate Veterans is there. He gives a speech. He was

136
00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,520
Speaker 3: also a klansman, you know. You know, so this says

137
00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,960
Speaker 3: something there that you know, nineteen twenties Charlottesville. You know,

138
00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,920
Speaker 3: elites were not averse to rubbing shoulders with a known klansman,

139
00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,080
Speaker 3: you know, who had been invited to give a speech.

140
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:58,880
Speaker 3: You know, other invited guests. One was a minister who

141
00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,360
Speaker 3: was a gradu what of the University of Virginia, and

142
00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,160
Speaker 3: it was you know, just kind of revealing, you know

143
00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,240
Speaker 3: what he said in his in his speech, you know,

144
00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:12,480
Speaker 3: when he was talking about he said that that the

145
00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:18,200
Speaker 3: days of reconstruction were worse than war. You know, so

146
00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:23,480
Speaker 3: this right exactly, Yeah, does beg the question, and that yeah,

147
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:25,480
Speaker 3: goes without saying, of course that this is you know,

148
00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,400
Speaker 3: almost exclusively a white audience and you know, the white

149
00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,600
Speaker 3: school kids. School has been canceled for the day, the

150
00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,280
Speaker 3: university as classes you know, canceled for the day, and

151
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,679
Speaker 3: you know, the businesses are closed. I mean, this is

152
00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,440
Speaker 3: just you know, quite the community event that's going on. So, yeah,

153
00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,960
Speaker 3: so reconstruction was worse than war. You know, we're celebrating today,

154
00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,840
Speaker 3: you know, the you know, the spirit of Lea, the

155
00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,960
Speaker 3: regeneration you know of our values and you know, there's

156
00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:57,280
Speaker 3: just a lot of of conversation in these in these inaugurations, ceremonies,

157
00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,559
Speaker 3: you know for the unveiling of these statues that hearkened

158
00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:05,160
Speaker 3: to rebirth and regeneration, and you know, and also you know,

159
00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,560
Speaker 3: kind of recalling you know, the days of old, you know,

160
00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,480
Speaker 3: and the and the values you know of our veterans

161
00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:13,120
Speaker 3: you know who are now you know of course in

162
00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,000
Speaker 3: dwindling number, you know, these Confederate veterans who are there.

163
00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,480
Speaker 3: And so this and as I said, there's been this

164
00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:23,080
Speaker 3: whole build up you know, for days and days, you know,

165
00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:25,320
Speaker 3: I mean of course for the planning committee, this has

166
00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:27,320
Speaker 3: been going on for weeks and months, you know, the

167
00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,680
Speaker 3: fundraising and you know, reserving you know blocks you know

168
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,079
Speaker 3: at the hotels and you know, and all guesthouses and

169
00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,720
Speaker 3: all this kind of thing you know, banquet halls, et cetera.

170
00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:41,360
Speaker 3: You know. But it's it's also revealing that this installation

171
00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,439
Speaker 3: ceremony for the Lee statue, it is booke nded with

172
00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,840
Speaker 3: clan activity and uptick in clan activity before and after

173
00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:57,720
Speaker 3: the installation ceremony. And why while we don't have well

174
00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,000
Speaker 3: we do know, but you know one one clansman who

175
00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,280
Speaker 3: you know, the Commander Lee, no relation to the General Lee,

176
00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,120
Speaker 3: but uh but the president of the Sons of the

177
00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,920
Speaker 3: Confederate veterans, you know. But but to just see all

178
00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,920
Speaker 3: of this uptick in lost cause nostalgia and then these

179
00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:21,199
Speaker 3: these acts of intimidation of you know, clan rallies, clan

180
00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,680
Speaker 3: posters that were you know, put flyers around town, you know, uh,

181
00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,640
Speaker 3: and this sort of thing. It just it they're the

182
00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,600
Speaker 3: atmosphere of intimidation. You know that this must have been

183
00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:38,120
Speaker 3: for black residents you know of the time. Uh, you know,

184
00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,000
Speaker 3: it just it really gives you pause, you know, just

185
00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,680
Speaker 3: just seeing how public space was commandeered, you know by

186
00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,240
Speaker 3: these people, these Neil Confederates, you know, to kind of

187
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,400
Speaker 3: uh relive what they considered, you know, kind of the

188
00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,160
Speaker 3: glory days you know, of the nation you know, and

189
00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,120
Speaker 3: the kind of values to which they want to return,

190
00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,280
Speaker 3: you know, and and and this sort of thing. So yeah,

191
00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,640
Speaker 3: so this is going on, you know in the nineteen twenties,

192
00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,280
Speaker 3: as you know, Charlottesville is you know, locked into Jim

193
00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,440
Speaker 3: Crow by then, you know, and we're twenty two years

194
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,080
Speaker 3: into that Jim Crow State constitution. You know, this is

195
00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,720
Speaker 3: the mail u you know in which in which this

196
00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,120
Speaker 3: is taking place. Now. Of course, black people have their

197
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,440
Speaker 3: own institutions, you know that they've founded, you know, namely churches,

198
00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,640
Speaker 3: the Jefferson School, African American what's now the African American

199
00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:34,560
Speaker 3: Heritage Center, but the Jefferson School, which was a school

200
00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,840
Speaker 3: for black children, and the founding of the High school

201
00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,960
Speaker 3: of a black high school. So this was you know,

202
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:47,320
Speaker 3: the black community had its own nodes of organizational strength,

203
00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:52,200
Speaker 3: you know, and goings on that were happening even as

204
00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:54,920
Speaker 3: you know, there were these pressures you going on with

205
00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,720
Speaker 3: the consolidation of Jim Crow should also mention that, you know,

206
00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,760
Speaker 3: at this at around same time in spring of nineteen

207
00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:09,280
Speaker 3: twenty four was the passage of the Virginia Racial Integrity Act,

208
00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,760
Speaker 3: and this was the kind of the codification of the

209
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:18,680
Speaker 3: so called one Drop Rule, which designated anyone with a

210
00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:27,160
Speaker 3: perceived ad mixture of African American or Native American ancestry

211
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,760
Speaker 3: to be designated as colored, you know, and kind of

212
00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,800
Speaker 3: bifurcating the population of Virginia into two categories white or colored.

213
00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,800
Speaker 3: And so this is also occurring, you know, in nineteen

214
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:39,680
Speaker 3: twenty four. There's a very you know, there's very much

215
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:44,320
Speaker 3: of a legal you know, a kind of strengthening, you

216
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,120
Speaker 3: know of in terms of the tools that are being

217
00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:52,600
Speaker 3: used to separate the races quote unquote, you know, and

218
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,280
Speaker 3: what we're seeing then in the parks, you know, in

219
00:12:55,280 --> 00:13:00,880
Speaker 3: our public spaces were you know, kind of designating what

220
00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,800
Speaker 3: we're well, not public spaces, I mean they were you know,

221
00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,120
Speaker 3: kind of designated you know, almost shrine like, you know,

222
00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:12,400
Speaker 3: as white spaces, you know, and that this is it's

223
00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,319
Speaker 3: a kind of broadcasting of who's in charge, is what's

224
00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:16,800
Speaker 3: going on?

225
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:19,760
Speaker 2: Right, I think you know today the sons of Confederate

226
00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,720
Speaker 2: Veterans very much separate themselves from the clan. Right, there

227
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,800
Speaker 2: were a heritage organization. We're not the clan, but you

228
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,080
Speaker 2: were talking about this sort of clan activity leading up

229
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,440
Speaker 2: to the unveiling of the statue. And it's actually just

230
00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,679
Speaker 2: looking back this morning at some of the archival newspapers

231
00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,520
Speaker 2: from that week. And so when the day the statue

232
00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:39,680
Speaker 2: was placed, you know a few weeks before the unveiling,

233
00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:41,320
Speaker 2: it was still covered, it was shrouded, you know, it's

234
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,560
Speaker 2: leading up to the big day. So in the front

235
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,120
Speaker 2: page of the Daily Progress the day that the statue

236
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,160
Speaker 2: was put in the park, that little snippet appears in

237
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,040
Speaker 2: the newspaper, right next to a headline about cross burning.

238
00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,560
Speaker 2: These things are happening on at the same time, right,

239
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,160
Speaker 2: And there was absolutely a big clan march through town

240
00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,400
Speaker 2: that week. And I think one of the it's easy

241
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,679
Speaker 2: to forget that these historical moments were experienced by people

242
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,240
Speaker 2: whose words that we still have, like people who were

243
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,559
Speaker 2: living in this moment. I think one of one moment

244
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,800
Speaker 2: in your historical tour that really has stuck with me

245
00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,120
Speaker 2: all these years is an anecdote about John West, who

246
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,800
Speaker 2: is for the listener as a man was born into

247
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,800
Speaker 2: slavery in this era, was one of the largest black

248
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,160
Speaker 2: landowners in the area, was a successful businessman, and when

249
00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,760
Speaker 2: the klan marched by that week, you know, they're wearing

250
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,360
Speaker 2: their hoods, you don't know who they are. It's you know,

251
00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,400
Speaker 2: it's mysterious, it's intimidating. But he knew who every single

252
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,920
Speaker 2: clansman was because he was their barber, and he recognized

253
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,520
Speaker 2: their shoes. And that just feels so intimate to me, right,

254
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,520
Speaker 2: that he's he's looking at the shoes of these men

255
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:42,200
Speaker 2: that he knows, and then tomorrow they're going to come

256
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:43,640
Speaker 2: in for a shave and a haircut and he has

257
00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:44,920
Speaker 2: to say, you know, yes, sir, thank you.

258
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,360
Speaker 3: Sir, that's right, that's right. And so if you can

259
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,040
Speaker 3: just imagine like you know, and here you know John West.

260
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,560
Speaker 3: You know, so here's one of the most you know,

261
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:58,360
Speaker 3: influential Black residents of Charlottesville at that time, and he

262
00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,200
Speaker 3: has to live yeah in you know that there's this

263
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,600
Speaker 3: this atmosphere of intimidation that you that, Yeah, his clients

264
00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,400
Speaker 3: are coming in, you know, they're coming in every ten

265
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,120
Speaker 3: days or fourteen days to get a get a trim,

266
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,400
Speaker 3: get a you know, touch up, you know here and there,

267
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:16,560
Speaker 3: and yeah, and and he knows that these you know

268
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,280
Speaker 3: that that these are you know, the folks who are

269
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:25,080
Speaker 3: kind of maintaining you know that this this public order,

270
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,320
Speaker 3: you know that is so uh. You know that you know,

271
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,400
Speaker 3: you better not step out of line. And so just

272
00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:36,480
Speaker 3: to have one's public space, you know, be demarcated, you know,

273
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:42,440
Speaker 3: in such a demonstrative way, you know, in a monumental way.

274
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:47,240
Speaker 3: You know, really yeah exactly is is uh, it really

275
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,000
Speaker 3: illustrates what's going on, you know, and even in you know,

276
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,120
Speaker 3: relationships like that, you know that that are so like

277
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,320
Speaker 3: you know, intimate a barber and a client, you know,

278
00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,720
Speaker 3: and and knowing you know what you're as are up

279
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,760
Speaker 3: to you know, and how you better stay in line.

280
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:17,640
Speaker 4: You know, it's scary, that's what that statue was here,

281
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,680
Speaker 4: right for almost a century, So skipping ahead that century,

282
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,960
Speaker 4: right when the statue finally came down in twenty twenty one,

283
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,600
Speaker 4: so not too long ago, right, So the city solicited

284
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,520
Speaker 4: proposals for what was to be done with it, right.

285
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,640
Speaker 2: A lot of cities put them into storage or moved

286
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,480
Speaker 2: them to battlefields or museums didn't want them. People say, well,

287
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,960
Speaker 2: why can't it go to a music museums didn't want it, right.

288
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, So because of my work, I get pulled in

289
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:49,360
Speaker 3: on a lot of different statue statue related consultations, let's

290
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,800
Speaker 3: put it that way. And I was on the George

291
00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,440
Speaker 3: Rogers Clark Committee at the University of Virginia when the

292
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,120
Speaker 3: university was trying to decide what to do with a

293
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:02,040
Speaker 3: very hideous called it the Genocide Trophy. It was a

294
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:06,120
Speaker 3: statue of the George Rogers Clark, the conqueror of the Northwest.

295
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,400
Speaker 3: It literally said that on the facade, you know. And

296
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,200
Speaker 3: so we were in consultation with native tribes. We were

297
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:19,280
Speaker 3: contacting the various tribal nations who suffered the onslaught of

298
00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,479
Speaker 3: the so called Northwest campaign. So these tribes that are

299
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,280
Speaker 3: in what is now Illinois and Ohio, et cetera, you know,

300
00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,919
Speaker 3: and just asking them, you know, would you like to

301
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,520
Speaker 3: kind of weigh in, you know, on this, and you know,

302
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,280
Speaker 3: really sad genocide is a real thing. Some folks who

303
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,879
Speaker 3: are just no longer there, you know, or you know,

304
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,959
Speaker 3: were you know, became such a remnant, you know, as

305
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,800
Speaker 3: they were so decimated that you know, they kind of

306
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,360
Speaker 3: you know, morphed into you know, other tribes others were

307
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,000
Speaker 3: you know, went on you know later on to you know,

308
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:53,159
Speaker 3: to Oklahoma or other places. You know, just dispersal, you know,

309
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,040
Speaker 3: really was you know. You know. So we're in this

310
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:57,960
Speaker 3: you know, kind of year long process trying to figure

311
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,080
Speaker 3: out what to do with UVa's own statue there, you know,

312
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,720
Speaker 3: also a gift of Paul Goodlow McIntyre, you know, the

313
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,119
Speaker 3: same donor who gave the least statue to the city,

314
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,560
Speaker 3: gave this Steorge Rogers Clark statue to the university. And

315
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:16,440
Speaker 3: so in doing that committee work, we made appointments with

316
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,560
Speaker 3: all the big players all that, you know, and here

317
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,359
Speaker 3: we are. We're from the University of Virginia, you know,

318
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:25,560
Speaker 3: and we've got this, you know, big big monument here,

319
00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,800
Speaker 3: you know, the Smithsonian, the you know, and you know,

320
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:33,120
Speaker 3: we talked to not about this one, but in another instance,

321
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,160
Speaker 3: talk to you know, the Civil War Museum's battle Fields.

322
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:37,080
Speaker 1: You know.

323
00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,520
Speaker 3: I mean, we contacted all the responsible you know, the

324
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,080
Speaker 3: folks who are going to curate this in a in

325
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,200
Speaker 3: a responsible way, you know, because you know that's it

326
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,680
Speaker 3: is a monumental work of art. You know, it has

327
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,680
Speaker 3: stood here for a century. It does have historical value

328
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,280
Speaker 3: of a sort, you know. And I mean and you know,

329
00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,680
Speaker 3: and as someone who has you know, teaches history and

330
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:03,960
Speaker 3: research's history, that's my that's my inclination. My initial inclination is, oh, yeah,

331
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:05,840
Speaker 3: well we should preserve I mean, that's you know, kind

332
00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,040
Speaker 3: of where I go to. But the problem is it's

333
00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,560
Speaker 3: a very practical one. This is a material object that

334
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,719
Speaker 3: is taking up space, literal and figurative space in the world.

335
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,399
Speaker 2: It's six six thousand pounds.

336
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the very materiality of it. It is taking

337
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,840
Speaker 3: up space, and you you have to figure out what

338
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,880
Speaker 3: space is it going to inhabit. This is a very

339
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,840
Speaker 3: practical question. If it's not in your park anymore, where's

340
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,080
Speaker 3: it going to be? We contacted all these museums, you know,

341
00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,000
Speaker 3: and in several you know, different consultations. I've been a

342
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,160
Speaker 3: part of where we've been trying to get rid of statues.

343
00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:48,800
Speaker 3: Nobody wants them, Nobody responsible wants them. And you know,

344
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,959
Speaker 3: and even if they did have an inclination to want

345
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,040
Speaker 3: to do just the expense of it, you know, who

346
00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,240
Speaker 3: wants to reinforce their floors to put a you know,

347
00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:03,680
Speaker 3: century old you know, artistically not exemplary, you know, monument

348
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:05,520
Speaker 3: in it, you know, and then care for I mean,

349
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,840
Speaker 3: museums have very limited budgets, they're nonprofit organizations. Why should

350
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,440
Speaker 3: they be expending all this energy? I love the My

351
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:19,720
Speaker 3: colleague Aaron Thompson from John Jay College and Cuney, you know,

352
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,359
Speaker 3: she's an art crime professor, and she said, you know,

353
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,879
Speaker 3: she talked with somebody at the Smithsonian who said something

354
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,760
Speaker 3: to the effect that, you know, we're not America's attic

355
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:35,919
Speaker 3: for racist arts. That's not our role. It's like, you know,

356
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,199
Speaker 3: it kind of does throw back the responsibility to individual

357
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,760
Speaker 3: communities too. It's like, you know, you have a part

358
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 3: to play in this, you know. And so anyway, yeah,

359
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 3: so we tried to do the responsible thing. We contacted

360
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 3: all all the responsible actors out there. They don't want them,

361
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 3: And so then the question becomes, Okay, the city also

362
00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:56,840
Speaker 3: doesn't want it sitting on its back lot for forever

363
00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,400
Speaker 3: in perpetuity. You know, They've got things, you know, they've

364
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 3: got equipment there, they've got things that you know, this

365
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,520
Speaker 3: shouldn't be sitting there. Where is it going to go? Again?

366
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 3: This is the material object that exists in the world.

367
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 3: It is a problem, you know, like what physical space

368
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 3: is it going to occupy? We're just such brute practicality here,

369
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 3: and I don't think people quite get what it means

370
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,880
Speaker 3: to deal with this. And the only people who want

371
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 3: it are the very people who shouldn't have it, you know,

372
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,240
Speaker 3: who want to take this object that's caused us so

373
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,160
Speaker 3: much pain and to make a shrine out of it,

374
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,359
Speaker 3: you know, that would continue to attract bad actors, you know,

375
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,360
Speaker 3: and that it would you know. And I'm a religious

376
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,919
Speaker 3: studies scholar, so when I use I don't use the

377
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 3: word shrine lightly. I know what kinds of activities you know, uh,

378
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,439
Speaker 3: these engender, you know, and the sorts of emotions that

379
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 3: are you know, evoked, you know, in the ceremonies around

380
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 3: you know, objects that are that are held to be sacred.

381
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,160
Speaker 3: You know that that attract you know, kind of devotees,

382
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,800
Speaker 3: you know, and so you really have to think about

383
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,399
Speaker 3: what does it mean to be a responsible ethical actor?

384
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 1: You know.

385
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,920
Speaker 3: It's like now we're we're in grown up world. Now,

386
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 3: it's like, okay, it's like we want you know, it's

387
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 3: like there is a material object, where are we going

388
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 3: to put it? It's like have an adjunct car, what

389
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:15,640
Speaker 3: do you do with it? You just let it sit

390
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:17,919
Speaker 3: in your driveway and make your neighbors mad at you.

391
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 2: Right, And these Confederate statues are sort of the junk

392
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,479
Speaker 2: cars of the lost cause, right, because they're not rare, right, Like,

393
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,120
Speaker 2: you know, especially right after Unite the Right, a bunch

394
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,440
Speaker 2: of cities, all of a sudden, we're like, we got

395
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 2: to get rid of these things. And so suddenly the

396
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,439
Speaker 2: market is flooded with Confederate statues. Where are you going

397
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 2: to put them?

398
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 3: That's right at that and that is the question. And

399
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 3: they are And I've used this this metaphor before, the

400
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:48,880
Speaker 3: metaphor of toxic waste. You know, it's not responsible to say, oh,

401
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 3: we want to get rid of our toxic trash. Here

402
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 3: and then ship it down the road to the next

403
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 3: town and say, Okay, well we're done with that. That's

404
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 3: not responsible to make that town have to deal, you know.

405
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 3: Or maybe there maybe there were some people in that

406
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 3: town that wanted it, you know, but that's not fair

407
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,239
Speaker 3: to the other people to have to breathe in that

408
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 3: air and it brings that water that's that's poisoned by this.

409
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 3: That's not that's not being responsible, you know what I mean.

410
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:20,199
Speaker 3: So it really is an ethical question, you know, what

411
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 3: what space these toxic objects are going to inhabit, And

412
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 3: so we were unable to find any responsible actors who

413
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,439
Speaker 3: would take this on. And so then it kind of

414
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,680
Speaker 3: it's like, well, I guess it's kind of on us.

415
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 3: We have to you know, like the Smithsonian. It's like,

416
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 3: we're not the attic for your racist trash, you know.

417
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 3: It's like it's it's really it's it's on us. It's

418
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 3: on communities to figure this out, you know. And if

419
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 3: there isn't uh, you know, some sort of organization that

420
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,919
Speaker 3: can responsibly curate this, you know, and care for it,

421
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 3: then you know, we really need to think about it.

422
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 3: And in the case of this Lee Statue of Charlottesville's

423
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,919
Speaker 3: Lee statue. You know, they are about I think there

424
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 3: are about sixteen monuments of Lee, like kind of equestrian

425
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 3: monuments of this sort, you know, in the country. I

426
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 3: can say with confidence that all of the others are

427
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 3: of better quality in Charlottesville.

428
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 2: That's such an important point, right, because this is, you know,

429
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 2: an important historical piece of art. And that's true of

430
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 2: some of them. Some of them are legitimate pieces of

431
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 2: but this one is not.

432
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 3: No.

433
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 2: I mean, it was like he was smuggling hams in

434
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 2: his sleeves.

435
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 3: Oh well yeah, so yeah, it's it's terrible. It's really

436
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 3: a case. The Lee statue from Charlottesville is really a

437
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 3: case of too many chefs spoiled the soup. You know,

438
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 3: they they you know they The original sculptor, Schradie, you know,

439
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 3: was commissioned to do this, this this work, and he

440
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 3: got behind on the because he was finishing another another

441
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 3: work of his, which is generally regarded as his magnum opus,

442
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 3: which is a monument to General Grant. I just love that.

443
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 3: It's just sorry, p right, you got to wait and

444
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 3: working on my best piece.

445
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 2: Already finished, a beautiful statue of Grant, and then he died.

446
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 3: And then he died. He died, and supposedly it might

447
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 3: be apocryphal. I kind of like this tale that supposedly

448
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 3: when he's on his deathbed trade he's on his death

449
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 3: bending and he's still thinking about that unfinished Lee. Probably

450
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 3: he's like, oh, mind the you know, mind the cloth,

451
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 3: you know, keep it damp.

452
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 2: You know it's a plaster wet, right.

453
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 3: Yes, keep the plaster. He'd made a maquette, he'd made

454
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 3: a model, play model of the Lee statue for Charlottesville,

455
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 3: for that next commission, the unfinished commission. And he dies

456
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 3: and so now it's like, well, you know, this is

457
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 3: a problem, you know, for for the philanthropist and the

458
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 3: community or the community leaders of Charlotsville who wanted this

459
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 3: Lee statue. So they find they find a ringer, you know,

460
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 3: this young guy, you know, Leo and Telly. Interesting, you

461
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 3: know Italian immigrant in the twenties, which is kind of interest,

462
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 3: you know when you think about, you know, all the

463
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 3: hate that was being.

464
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 2: Whipped before it towns were white, right.

465
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 3: And that was before Italians were white.

466
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 4: Man.

467
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 3: But he was, yeah, kind of direct from Italy and

468
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 3: from a sculpting background. So maybe they made a little

469
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 3: exception for him. I don't know anyway, So this young guy,

470
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 3: you know, Leo Intell, he takes over and you know

471
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,959
Speaker 3: he probably needed a little more practice. I don't know,

472
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 3: it just did didn't turn out well.

473
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: It's like the lego tail on Traveler, like a chunky No.

474
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 3: It's just yeah, there was We had a sculptor from

475
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 3: around here who himself works in bronze and desk monumental work,

476
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 3: and he kind of just kind of came and looked

477
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 3: at it and he was just you know, just everything's

478
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 3: out of proportion. The gauntlets on the glove are too thick,

479
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 3: you know, the sword is too long, the tail is

480
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 3: too fat, I mean in his head. Yeah, that Lee's

481
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,239
Speaker 3: head on top of his shoulders. It just looks like,

482
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 3: you know, kind of like almost like Transformer toy or something.

483
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just really weird, you know, proportions. It's

484
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 3: just it just really was not very well executed because

485
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 3: apparently the maquette, the model that had been made, just

486
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 3: was completely destroyed. The model, the original model by Schrady,

487
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 3: was completely turned to dust, and so Lintelly, the successor sculptor,

488
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 3: had to work from the drawings that remained. You know,

489
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 3: and you know, it just didn't didn't really go very well.

490
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 3: And here's the thing that even the boosters at the time,

491
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 3: that is, you know, the folks that were planning for

492
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 3: the installation of the Lee statue in the nineteen twenties

493
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 3: themselves did not think it was very well executed. We

494
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:54,479
Speaker 3: have diary entries from the Master of Ceremonies of the

495
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 3: installation ceremony, RTW Duke's and he says, he writes, is

496
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 3: like dare to before the installation, he says, went on

497
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 3: a walk, you know tonight, you know, went by the park,

498
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 3: you know, saw the Lee statue. I do not like.

499
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: It me either.

500
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 3: This is the guy who's please damn see at this

501
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 3: unveiling ceremony. And you know, the next day or two,

502
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 3: how embarrassing. Yeah, and there's op eds even, you know,

503
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,719
Speaker 3: also they're saying like, wow, you know that that just

504
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 3: doesn't look good at all, you know. So and these

505
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 3: are the these are the support these are the Neo Confederates,

506
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 3: the one it there and and they've they've noticed that

507
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 3: too many cooks spoiled the soup, you know. And then

508
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 3: apparently the murmurs were sufficient that one of the speakers

509
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 3: at the installation ceremony. I can harken back to that,

510
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 3: you know, at the Lee installation ceremony. You know, I

511
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 3: guess felt compelled to address the complaints that were apparently circulating,

512
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 3: and he said, you know, I'm talking about the portionality

513
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 3: problem that I mentioned before, that just so many it's

514
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 3: just very disjointed, you know, so many parts of the

515
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 3: of the monument are out of proportion to other parts.

516
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 3: And so this speaker at the installation ceremony said, you know,

517
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 3: there are those who say that the pedestal you know,

518
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 3: upon which the Lee statue is, you know, is set,

519
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 3: is too small, But I say the world itself is

520
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 3: too small a pedestal for General Lee just like oh yeah,

521
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 3: good say it's it's yeah, yeah, yeah.

522
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 2: The portions, I mean, the whole thing. The plinth was

523
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: too small, the statue was too large for that tiny park.

524
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 2: It just it was never a good spot for him.

525
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 3: It was never a good spot. So anyway, all that

526
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 3: is to say, it's a very it's a very poor

527
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 3: work of art. Just just an aesthetic, I mean, and

528
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 3: I'm not one that wants to remove, you know, kind

529
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 3: of any moral considerations from aesthetic. There are some people

530
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 3: philosophers who want to parse that out and this sort

531
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 3: of thing. And but even if you believe you could

532
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 3: do that, which I do not, you know, it's just

533
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 3: really a not It's like having a high school art

534
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 3: project a CE, I give it a C. It's a

535
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 3: high school art project that it's not.

536
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 2: Worth saving, right, No, Like even if it had not

537
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 2: been this sort of lightning rod in our community, right that,

538
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 2: even if this were a you know, a beautiful piece

539
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 2: of art that was worth saving, I don't. I don't know.

540
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 2: There's two separate concerns, right, Like it's not beautiful enough

541
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 2: to put into a museum regardless, But then also preserving

542
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 2: this object in any capacity just allows it to sort

543
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 2: of continue to be this lightning rod, like you known,

544
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 2: sort of still asking about, well, what's the problem with recontextualization.

545
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 2: Why can't you just put it somewhere else? And I

546
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 2: think that's sort of a broader conversation about these statues

547
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: in general. But for our statue, for that Robert E.

548
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 2: Lee statue, right that it had become sort of a

549
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 2: pilgrimage site for vigilanti violence.

550
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I don't know that, Like just out for

551
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 3: the listeners in radio land. Just for folks out there

552
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 3: listening that even after the twenty seventeen Unite the Right rally,

553
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 3: this statue stood for another four years in our park

554
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 3: while we had to wrestle through legal issues, legislative and

555
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 3: judicial entanglements that prevented Charlottesville from removing that statue even

556
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 3: after the Unite the Right rally, and during that time,

557
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 3: that four year interim. It's crazy to think about it, huh,

558
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 3: for ye that for four years after Unite the Right,

559
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 3: it was still there, Like.

560
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,239
Speaker 2: The statue made everyone else realized they needed to get

561
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 2: rid of theirs. But because of state law and these lawsuits,

562
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 2: we were still stuck with ours.

563
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 3: Charlottesville was still stuck with it. And there were and

564
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 3: these you know, different groups, some of the same constituencies

565
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 3: that had attended Unite the Right continued to come and

566
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 3: make their pilgrimages to the least sat and to antagonize

567
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 3: community members by putting up their propaganda near the statues

568
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 3: and even uh, you know, going to the fourth you know,

569
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 3: the the crash site on Fourth Street where a neo

570
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 3: Nazi drove his car you know, into a crowd of

571
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 3: Charlottesville counter protesters and killed community member heather Hire. These

572
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 3: these uh fascists you know, who would make their pilgrimage

573
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 3: to Charlottesville, would make sure and still do on occasion,

574
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 3: uh go to Fourth Street and put up their propaganda

575
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 3: there as well as if to kind of further antagonize

576
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 3: the community at a site of our trauma, you know.

577
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 3: And so it was very clear that this statue would

578
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 3: just wherever it would be, it would continue to be

579
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 3: a beacon for these people. And so really it was

580
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 3: just kind of a question of responsibility knowing this, uh,

581
00:32:54,160 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 3: knowing that no responsible historical or artistic institution has the

582
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 3: capacity or desire to take it in what does one

583
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 3: do with it? And that it's not an exemplary piece

584
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 3: of art. There are fifteen other monuments that are of

585
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 3: better quality of Lee. We're not going to forget him,

586
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 3: you know, if this particular specimen goes missing, and the

587
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 3: way we see it, we're doing the art world a favor,

588
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 3: because as I've said, it was really, you know, not

589
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 3: a very good, well executed piece of art. So, you know,

590
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 3: with in considering all of that, you know, in seeing

591
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 3: in prior removals, for instance, the Johnny reb the Courthouse,

592
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 3: Confederate Soldier, statue was removed, and there was kind of

593
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 3: no plan in place about where it would go, and

594
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 3: so it ended up, you know, getting sent to a

595
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 3: battlefield that is maintained by a group of Confederate leading

596
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 3: folks that seem to favor kind of lost cause interpretations

597
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 3: of the war. So we'd seen that happen already the

598
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 3: year before in twenty twenty, that when there isn't a plan,

599
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 3: it's one thing to remove it, but then where does

600
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 3: it go? Again, this is a physical object that exists

601
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 3: in space, in physical space, where is this material object

602
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 3: going to go? If you don't have a plan, then

603
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 3: bad things can happen.

604
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 2: The police resistance the past, the Lae resistance is just

605
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: if someone says I will pay to move this, and

606
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 2: the city is paying to store it, then that's an

607
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:23,959
Speaker 2: easy answer and you can't let that.

608
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 3: Take it right, And so that that went. So when

609
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 3: the County Aldmarle County removed the Johnny reb statue, the

610
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 3: Confederate soldier statue from in front of the courthouse, and

611
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 3: I think that was September of twenty twenty, and we

612
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 3: saw how quickly that got sent to this battlefield that is,

613
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 3: you know, maintained by these you know, kind of lost

614
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 3: cause type folks. That's when Andrea Douglas and I and

615
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,800
Speaker 3: Andrea Douglas is the director of the Jefferson School African

616
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 3: American Heritage Center here in Charlottesville. We said, you know,

617
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 3: we still do not have the legal authority to remove

618
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 3: Charlottesville's Lee statue, but we anticipated that perhaps, you know,

619
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 3: in the in the coming year, we might I said,

620
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 3: we need to start making plans now about what can have,

621
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 3: what where the statue should go after its removal, because otherwise,

622
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 3: the same thing that happened to this Johnny reb to

623
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 3: this Confederate soldier statue just kind of getting sent down

624
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 3: the road, you know, to whatever entity organization that wants it,

625
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 3: the same thing's going to happen, and we need to

626
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 3: have a plan in place in order to kind of

627
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 3: capture that so that it doesn't just kind of continue

628
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 3: to circulate and to do harm. So that was our motivation.

629
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 3: So we kind of, you know, in September of twenty twenty,

630
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 3: that's when we really you know, put the pedal to

631
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 3: the metal on starting the planning of this, you know.

632
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 3: And we and mind you, we did not even get

633
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 3: permission until I think It was April the first of

634
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 3: twenty twenty one, and finally the Virginia Supreme Court ruled

635
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 3: in favor of the City of Charlottesville in our efforts

636
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 3: to remove the Lea statue. You know. So this was

637
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 3: you know, six seven months before we even knew if

638
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 3: we could do this, but we said, let's start making plans,

639
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 3: and so we started having these kinds of conversations you know,

640
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 3: with battlefields, with museums, with foundries, you know, just just

641
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 3: you know, just learning, you know, kind of the nuts

642
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 3: and bolts, you know, what are the possibilities here? And

643
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:51,760
Speaker 3: it turns out it's very complicated.

644
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 2: Right, So, I know there's been sort of jokes around

645
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 2: that it was going back over some of the public

646
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 2: discourse over the years that we've been sort of joking

647
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: as a community for years, like why don't we just

648
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 2: melt it? Why don't we just melt it?

649
00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 3: Yeah?

650
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 2: But when did that because a real idea like when

651
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 2: did it? When did that sort of coalesce into something

652
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 2: that felt possible.

653
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 3: I think, you know, in September twenty twenty, I think

654
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 3: when the Johnny reb statue was removed and it went on,

655
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 3: you know to the Shenandoah Valley Battlefield Foundation, you know,

656
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 3: and they have this horrible plaque that they're putting up

657
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 3: that talks about how these men died for Virginia, you know,

658
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 3: and it's like they died for thirty eight percent of

659
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 3: Virginians were enslaved at that time, So how are you

660
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 3: saying that they died for Virginia. Also, this is from

661
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 3: alb Marle County. The majority of people here were enslaved.

662
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 3: So how did how did the people supposedly represented by

663
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 3: this statue die for Virginia fight for Virginia, you know

664
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 3: what I mean? So we just like that was so disturbing,

665
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 3: you know, in September of twenty twenty, when that happened,

666
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,280
Speaker 3: that's that's really when I just really started working in Earnest,

667
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 3: you know, calling foundries.

668
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 2: So the idea was always melting.

669
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 3: I mean, it wasn't until then because see this is funny.

670
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 3: When this whole controversy started in twenty sixteen, when Ziona

671
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 3: Bryant brought up her petition, you know, to to consider

672
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 3: removing these statues. The the position of the activist then

673
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 3: was just move the statue, go back and look at

674
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 3: the signs and at the T shirts and it says

675
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 3: hashtag move the statue. We just wanted it move. Just

676
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 3: take it from the Central Park and put it out

677
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 3: in McIntyre Park where there's more space. Don't have it downtown.

678
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 3: I mean that was kind of like that was the edgy,

679
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:31,800
Speaker 3: you know, And then.

680
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 2: They should have taken the opportunity back then, see.

681
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 3: Right exactly that was the opening bid, and you should

682
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 3: have took it, you.

683
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 2: Know, just these on the table anymore.

684
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly that that that that would have been good.

685
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 3: It would be in Mark mctire Park on the outskirts

686
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 3: of town. So and so, you know, when that when

687
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 3: the when, you know, the city appointed this Blue Ribbon

688
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 3: Commission on Race Memorials in Public Spaces to have a

689
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 3: series of public meetings to hear from Unity members what

690
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 3: they wanted to have happened with the statues. Should they

691
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 3: be removed, should you know, what should happen? And you know,

692
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 3: and this Blue Ribbon Commission, you know, hands their final

693
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 3: report to city council, you know, and then city council

694
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 3: takes the vote, you know, Charlotsville City Council in February

695
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 3: of twenty seventeen, and surprising many people, not some of

696
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 3: us who were in the know. But one of the

697
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 3: council members said, yes, I would like to propose a

698
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 3: resolution to remove the lead, not just move it, not

699
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 3: just recontextualize it, because that's you know, if you go

700
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 3: back and read that report, it's actually fairly there's a

701
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 3: couple of different suggests like, well you could move it,

702
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 3: or you could just do this, and you know, and

703
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 3: city council woman, you know, Christian Zakas, said, I would

704
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 3: you know, make a motion to have it removed completely,

705
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 3: you know. So it's like, whoa, Okay, we're you know,

706
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 3: we're making steps, you know. So it was it was about,

707
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 3: you know, it was getting from move from move the

708
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 3: state to remove the statue, as in take it away,

709
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 3: you know, and then it really wasn't until after all

710
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 3: the strife, you know. I mean, I think there were

711
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 3: some people all along who's you know, would say tongue

712
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 3: in cheek, oh we should just melt it down, you know,

713
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,479
Speaker 3: or you know, she'd you know, But but the thought

714
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 3: it was just so you know, talk about there's much

715
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,879
Speaker 3: talk of overton windows these days, you know, but they're

716
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 3: just they're just when that was being said, it was

717
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 3: always in a kind of jocular manner like, oh, of

718
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,479
Speaker 3: course that could never be but or we should melt

719
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 3: it down. It was this kind of offhand right, it

720
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 3: wasn't serious because how could that ever be? Right? I

721
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 3: mean that really that was behind. But what it takes

722
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 3: is somebody taking that seriously and like going through the

723
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 3: practical steps of what would that look like? And so

724
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 3: that's what I started doing in September twenty twenty. It's like,

725
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 3: I keep hearing people say that they want it melted down,

726
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 3: What would that look like? What do you like physically

727
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 3: do that this happened. I'm a humanities person. This was

728
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 3: breaking my brain learning about alloys and you know, compositions.

729
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 2: Here it becomes an engineering problem.

730
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 3: It really did. Yeah, and I did. I consulted with

731
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 3: you know, metallurgist engineers, you know, folks at various foundries

732
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 3: you know, to to you know, consulting and say, well,

733
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 3: you have to do this, you have to you know,

734
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 3: consider that. I mean so yeah, it was really in

735
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 3: the fall of twenty twenty when you know, kind of

736
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 3: in earnest started having conversations, you know, with with foundrymen

737
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 3: and with engineers, with folks that work in bronze casting.

738
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,399
Speaker 3: You know, but most of the time people didn't want

739
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 3: to talk to us right when they found out, oh

740
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 3: you want to do something with this with the stat

741
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 3: oh no, they just you know, they were they didn't

742
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 3: want to be involved in any controversy. Or we would

743
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 3: get someone who was on board with it, Yes we're

744
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 3: going to do it, and then for instance, you know,

745
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 3: the company got sold and the new owners were like,

746
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 3: what nothing to do with it, you know, or they

747
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 3: won't call us back anymore, or no, or you know,

748
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 3: I mean, just things just kept coming up. So it

749
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 3: was hard to find anyone who would just engage in

750
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 3: a serious way about the questions. And then even when

751
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 3: you could, it was kind of like, you know, you'd

752
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 3: get somebody for a little bit, and then it was

753
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:27,479
Speaker 3: you know, like the fisher, it's like, you know, catch

754
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 3: the fish would swim away, you know, kind of I

755
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 3: don't know it just you know, So it was it

756
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 3: was a lot of different conversations with a lot of

757
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 3: different people, you know, along the way to figure out

758
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 3: like what are the you know, literal and figurative nuts

759
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 3: and bolts of doing this. You know, I learned a lot,

760
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 3: like you know, about standard width of trailers eight and

761
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 3: a half feet Did you know that? Yeah, eight and

762
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 3: half feet yep, right right, you know, and you know

763
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 3: fifty three feet long, and you know, and you know

764
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,879
Speaker 3: kind of what kind of what's the hauling capacity, what's

765
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 3: the payload? You know, how do you balance the load?

766
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 3: You know? What is duneage? I mean you're just like

767
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 3: all these things. You know that that just the very

768
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 3: practical steps that one has to take to melt a statue.

769
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 2: And so it seems like, you know, the conclusion that

770
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 2: you reached was this object can't keep existing because the

771
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 2: fact that it does exist will always be a problem.

772
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 2: So that this is the decision was made that it

773
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 2: needed to be destroyed. But what was sort of the

774
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:33,760
Speaker 2: process of thinking through what do we do with it now?

775
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: Right?

776
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 2: Like, what is this sort of the vision behind not

777
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 2: just yeah, you know, taking the statue down and putting

778
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 2: up a different piece of public art, but a different

779
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 2: piece of public art that is physically repurposed. Right that

780
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 2: you've you've remediated this material.

781
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 3: Right right? Yeah, Well, we prefer the word transformed, you know,

782
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 3: to destroyed or or I mean it is it is,

783
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 3: you know, definitely, it is you know, kind of morphing

784
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 3: the material is taking the materials, you know, these raw materials,

785
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 3: and you know, transforming them into kind of usable you know,

786
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 3: kind of ingots, brick sized, you know, pieces of bronze,

787
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 3: so that they can be made into something new. It's

788
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 3: not that we hate art. We want art, right.

789
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 2: You know doctor Douglas's her background is in art, right.

790
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 3: Yes, doctor Douglas is an art historian. I mean, we

791
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 3: are the two most unlikely people to be in charge

792
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,760
Speaker 3: of such a project. I mean, I'm a religious study scholar.

793
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 3: It's like I've spent years of my life, you know,

794
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 3: studying you know, how people, you know, make make sacred values,

795
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 3: and specifically how they gather around material objects that they regard.

796
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 2: I don't think that's unlikely at all, right, that this

797
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 2: was an object of veneration for a very harmful cause.

798
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 3: I mean, I know you're sort of seventeen years, you know,

799
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:02,720
Speaker 3: researching a book about a a very beloved four hundred

800
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 3: year old effigy of the Virgin Mary in Cuba. You

801
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 3: can see my book up here. Well, there's a Cuban fla.

802
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 3: This right here is my book. Look I'm going over

803
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 3: too far.

804
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I see the Virgin Mary back there.

805
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, anyway, so I yeah, so that's that's my book

806
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,720
Speaker 3: up here. Yeah, right here, this is my book, Kachita's Streets.

807
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 3: I mean, if somebody, oh and you know, and this

808
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 3: has happened before, there have been folks, you know, iconoclass,

809
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 3: if somebody went and destroyed her image there in that

810
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 3: shrine in Cuba, I would be obsensed. I would just

811
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 3: I would be beside myself. I mean, it'd be like

812
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 3: somebody killed you know, a family member. I mean, be

813
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 3: on the next plane to get you know, you would

814
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,359
Speaker 3: have to console people. I mean, a four hundred year

815
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 3: old you know, it would just be terrible. You know,

816
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 3: it doesn't have all the hate wrapped into it that

817
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 3: these you know, statues do in this sort of thing.

818
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 3: So what I'm saying is I understand and that people

819
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 3: have very tender feelings toward these material objects that they

820
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 3: have had experiences around them that have bound them together.

821
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 3: Religiare you know the binding that's the original you know

822
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 3: root Latin root of religion you know, is to bind.

823
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 3: You know, I get that. And so yeah, I'm not

824
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 3: a reflexive iconoclast. You know, I'm a Catholic, I'm a

825
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 3: you know, I'm also a you know, participate in these

826
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 3: African inspired religious practices and stuff that you know that

827
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 3: put a lot of you know, emphasis upon, you know,

828
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 3: sacred material objects. So I am kind of I mean,

829
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 3: it is kind of weird that me I would be

830
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 3: involved in this and that, you know, and doctor Douglas,

831
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:47,720
Speaker 3: you know, but it's precisely because we know the power

832
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 3: of these things, and the we're eyewitnesses to what happened here.

833
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 3: You know that we know the power of it, and

834
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,879
Speaker 3: so how to be responsible for it. And so to

835
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 3: take something like that that was so harmful and to

836
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 3: be able to use its materials to transform them and

837
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 3: to make something that's meaningful and beautiful and that expresses

838
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 3: our community's values and that includes people rather than kind

839
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 3: of sets people apart, you know, or kind of you know,

840
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 3: symbolizing moments in our history where you know, over half

841
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 3: the local population was completely debased, you know. To be

842
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 3: able to take the material that that was part of

843
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 3: that and transform it into something else, it's just it

844
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 3: just seemed like it just has so much potential, you know.

845
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 3: And and and then the name of the project is

846
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 3: Swords into Plowshares, which comes from a verse from the

847
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 3: prophet Isaiah that they shall turn their swords into plowshares,

848
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 3: they shall turn their their spears into pruning hooks. So

849
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 3: we'll take these implements of destruction and of violence, and

850
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 3: we will transform them in to instruments of to cultivate,

851
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 3: you know, sustenance, you know, uh, you know, you know,

852
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,359
Speaker 3: nutrients you know, for a community. I mean, it just

853
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 3: you know, to just to just really transform it, you know,

854
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 3: from from something so ugly you know, into something beautiful,

855
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 3: you know. And we just thought, you know, let's let's

856
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 3: take the chance. Let's try and do this. Let's do

857
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 3: something that's never been done before, because none of these

858
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 3: statues have ever been like, I don't think ever completely

859
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 3: the Confederate ones anyway, have ever been completely destroyed, you know,

860
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 3: like this. Most of them are just in storage somewhere.

861
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,760
Speaker 3: And we said, let's let's take this chance to transform.

862
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:41,879
Speaker 3: Let's be responsible first of all, and not send our

863
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 3: toxic waste down the road to another community. And let's

864
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 3: try to do something transformative, you know, for our community.

865
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 3: And maybe this can also move the needle, you know,

866
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 3: in a national and international conversation about art and the

867
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 3: reparative values, you know, potential repair of values of art,

868
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 3: you know, and community building, you know, and so in

869
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 3: our you know, we're the swords into Plowsher's project. We're

870
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 3: hoping to put out a request for proposals, you know,

871
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 3: to artists this year in twenty twenty four, which is

872
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 3: the one hundredth anniversary of when the Least statue was installed.

873
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 3: You know, ideally, you know, fingers crossed, if you know,

874
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 3: it would be wonderful if we could have a completed

875
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 3: statue in twenty twenty seven, which would be the ten

876
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 3: year anniversary of the United the Right Rally, you know,

877
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 3: to to you know, to have something else to give

878
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 3: back to our community. You know, that's a blasting value that,

879
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 3: you know, and for us, it's important that we write

880
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 3: our narrative. There were people who attacked us, you know,

881
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 3: who tried to kind of imprint on us, you know,

882
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 3: some sort of narrative about what we were about and

883
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 3: also kind of you know, reverberated in a you know,

884
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 3: national and international way. And we're really taking control of

885
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 3: the narrative here. We're saying, you know, we we are

886
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 3: going to say who we are and we're going to

887
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 3: express that, you know, and we do value art, you know,

888
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 3: we want it to be an art that reflects our values.

889
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 4: Right.

890
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 2: I think this is a recognition that art does have power.

891
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 2: It had the power to harm, It had the power

892
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 2: to to bring great harm to this community. But it

893
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 2: was you know, that art was harming people just by

894
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 2: existing in that space, even before Unite the Right. And

895
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 2: now those same materials have hopefully the power to bring

896
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:37,320
Speaker 2: some repair. Yeah, So it wasn't It wasn't just the

897
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 2: practical you know, I think you were saying. It started

898
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 2: out a sort of a practical question is what do

899
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 2: you do with this large object? And so the practical

900
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,919
Speaker 2: answer is you reduce its size, you melt it down,

901
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 2: You remove it, and you melt it down. But it's

902
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 2: not just practical, right, there is there is incredible symbolic

903
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 2: value in using that material, that metal, right that I

904
00:50:57,760 --> 00:50:59,720
Speaker 2: think in some of the articles you all talked about

905
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 2: as it was melting there were impurities in the metal.

906
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 2: So as the statue is being melted down, the impurities

907
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 2: are being extracted from it, it's being purified and now

908
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 2: it can be repurposed and that's really beautiful.

909
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. Yeah, the slag getting pulled off the

910
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 3: top and just yeah, just it was incredible, you know,

911
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 3: to see for sure.

912
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 2: And so at this stage, you guys are soliciting community input.

913
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 2: I think there's a sort of a community survey out

914
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 2: about sort of what parks people frequent, how they're using

915
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 2: the parks, how they're engaging with the parks. And so

916
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 2: this year there'll be a request for proposals for artists

917
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:37,240
Speaker 2: to sort of put forth their vision for this bronze.

918
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 3: Right, and this is it's nice because this is all

919
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 3: coinciding with the city if Charlottesville has for some time

920
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 3: wanted to do a renovation of its downtown park. So

921
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 3: this and this has been a long time coming that

922
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 3: there are you know, sedated, you know, all of this

923
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 3: drama with the with the statues, but it's just really

924
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 3: a nice opportunity to just kind of for the community

925
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 3: to just kind of take stock. It's like, Okay, we're

926
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 3: you know, we're whatever, you know, going on seven years

927
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 3: out from Unite the Right. You know, we're eight years

928
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 3: out from you know, Zionist initial petition. You know, you

929
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,279
Speaker 3: know this this statue has been you know taken away,

930
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 3: it has been melted, and it just feels like a

931
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 3: literal and figurative clearing of the land. You know, it

932
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 3: just feels like you know, people have asked, you know

933
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 3: sometimes it's like, oh, there's you know, all that empty

934
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 3: space at the parks, and I was like, yeah, isn't

935
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 3: it nice. It's just kind of like I mean to

936
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 3: just kind of I think it's nice to just have

937
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 3: just push the pause button for you know, in terms

938
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 3: of things that are there for several years, and just

939
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 3: kind of allow our our minds to open, you know,

940
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 3: just like the space itself, and just to just imagine

941
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 3: what that space can look like. I think it's really

942
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 3: instructive and I wish more communities could have the opportunity

943
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 3: to do this. Actually yes, but you know, for instance,

944
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:57,879
Speaker 3: taking that survey you know that community members in Charlottesville

945
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 3: are doing now about you know, yeah, how how do

946
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:00,839
Speaker 3: you know?

947
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 2: Where?

948
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 3: Where do you what parks you go to? What activities

949
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:07,320
Speaker 3: do you engage in there? What do you like? You know,

950
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 3: what would you like to see more of? You know

951
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 3: this sort of thing. It's it's great to you know,

952
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 3: to consider this. You know that this is something that

953
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 3: has been you know, America's uh uh you know, the

954
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 3: United States is uh, you know, public parks has you

955
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 3: know been something that you know since the nineteenth century

956
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 3: is something that's that's been a real gem, you know

957
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 3: in some of our our public spaces, you know, and

958
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 3: in some of our cities, and you know, and this

959
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 3: is something to you know, to celebrate, and it's it's

960
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 3: nice to be able to kind of take stock and

961
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 3: to really, you know, think about how public spaces can

962
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 3: express our professed values, you.

963
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:48,280
Speaker 2: Know, instead of sort of reacting to hate, like taking

964
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 2: a moment to envision not our reaction to or you know,

965
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 2: what we don't want, but think about what we do

966
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:57,359
Speaker 2: want in that space exactly, and what would what would

967
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 2: serve our community. And I think that's sort of the

968
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 2: project is now, right, just sort of envisioning a positive

969
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,839
Speaker 2: future rather than trying to remediate a negative past.

970
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 3: It's and it's so nice because I felt like we

971
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 3: were fighting, fighting, fighting for so many years. You know,

972
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 3: we're in court, or we're protesting, or we're going to

973
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 3: lobby at the General Assembly or now we're going to

974
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 3: city council. I mean, there was just you know, all

975
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 3: you know, so so fraught, and so now it's just

976
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 3: so free to like, oh, to be able to imagine,

977
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 3: you know, and to be thinking forward. Yeah, And constructively, creatively.

978
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:30,760
Speaker 3: That's a great feeling.

979
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:33,840
Speaker 2: So how can people sort of keep up with Swords

980
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,320
Speaker 2: into Plowshares, stay up to date on the project and

981
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 2: it's it's progress, and more importantly, how can they support

982
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:40,240
Speaker 2: Sords into plow Shares.

983
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you can visit sipseville dot com. That's s

984
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 3: I P C V I L L E dot com.

985
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 3: So Sipcville that's Swords into Plowshares Ceville. And we have

986
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 3: occasional updates there with news stories about what we're doing

987
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 3: and upcoming meet things which will be happening at the

988
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 3: Jefferson School where we'll be you know, kind of presenting

989
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 3: results of of you know, surveys that we've done, you know,

990
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 3: and uh and also visiting speakers who will be coming

991
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 3: to talk about, you know, what what does art mean

992
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 3: in public spaces? You know, So we'll be able to

993
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 3: kind of you know, talk with uh, you know, some

994
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 3: experts that have come in, you know, to advise us

995
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 3: on you know, how to think about about what we

996
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 3: want in our in our in our parks going forward.

997
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,760
Speaker 2: And can people make donations to SIP on the website?

998
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 3: Yes, on the website there is a portal, right, there

999
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:46,960
Speaker 3: on on sipseyville dot com. Definitely welcome that as well.

1000
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 2: And those donations go towards for the the ultimate creation

1001
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 2: of this piece of art, correct, right, It is not

1002
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:56,319
Speaker 2: cheap to work with that much more.

1003
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 3: It is not. Yeah, so we're we're you know, putting

1004
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 3: together you know, fun to pay the artists, you know,

1005
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 3: for the commissioning the artists. You know, we're also applying

1006
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 3: for you know, grants from foundations and this sort of

1007
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 3: thing too. But of course there are other expenses associated

1008
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:13,960
Speaker 3: with you know, processing materials and yeah and all that.

1009
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 2: So, yeah, so that is s I P C V

1010
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 2: I L l E dot com slash donate to make

1011
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 2: sure that that artist gets paid. Absolutely well, Juliane, thank

1012
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:30,800
Speaker 2: you so much for joining us today, and I'm looking

1013
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 2: forward to seeing our our new beautiful piece of art,

1014
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:34,439
Speaker 2: hopefully by twenty twenty seven.

1015
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's great. Well, thank you for your interest, Mollie,

1016
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 3: and thank you to all the listeners and supporters out there.

1017
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 3: Means a lot to us that you know, your interest

1018
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 3: in us and and your support. Appreciate it.

1019
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:51,360
Speaker 2: I think we all love those photos of Lee's melting face.

1020
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 3: It is icon. I gotta say it's iconic you know.

1021
00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:02,879
Speaker 3: I yeah, well always have that, have that memory. Thank

1022
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 3: you so much.

1023
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 1: All right, It could Happen here as a production of

1024
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

1025
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 1: visit our website coolzonemedia dot com or check us out

1026
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,439
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

1027
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for It could Happen Here,

1028
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources.

1029
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.