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Speaker 3: Hi everyone, it's me Katie Couric. You know, if you've

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Speaker 3: been following me on social media, you know I love

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Speaker 3: to cook, or at least try, especially alongside some of

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Speaker 3: com slash good Taste. That's k A t I E

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Speaker 3: C O U r I c dot com Good Taste.

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Speaker 3: I promise your taste buds will be happy you did.

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Speaker 4: Hi, it's Jorge and Daniel here. And this holiday season,

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Speaker 4: if you're looking for a gift for yourself or a

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Speaker 4: friend or for your family. Why not get him the

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Speaker 4: gift of answers about the universe.

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Speaker 1: So check out our new book frequently ask questions about

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Speaker 1: the Universe. You can find details at universe faq dot com.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for supporting the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Happy holidays everyone, Hey Jorge, do you think that our

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Speaker 1: universe is well suited to us?

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean, some of it seems so

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Speaker 4: staggeringtly beautiful to our eyes, you know, like stars, the galaxies,

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Speaker 4: even like the drama of the black holes.

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Speaker 1: That's true, it's definitely something we can't appreciate. But also

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Speaker 1: sometimes seems like the universe is kind of alien to us.

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Speaker 4: I think the universe was here first, so technically we

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Speaker 4: are the age.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But you know, sometimes the way that it works

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Speaker 1: is so bizarre and so strange that I wonder if

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Speaker 1: we're ever going to understand it, if our minds are

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Speaker 1: suited to it.

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Speaker 5: Hmm.

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Speaker 4: Maybe that's what makes it especially suited to us.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean?

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Speaker 4: You know, it's like the perfect puzzle to keep us

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Speaker 4: entertained for attorney.

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Speaker 1: It's like that toy you put in front of a toddler.

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Speaker 1: Why you need to get some work done.

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Speaker 4: It's like the TV for human toddlers.

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Speaker 1: Maybe Steve Jobs created the universe.

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Speaker 4: Hi, I'm Orham, a cartoonists and the creator of PhD comics.

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Speaker 1: Hi I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I'm constantly

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Speaker 1: amazed at the strangeness and the bonkerousness of the universe

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Speaker 1: that we live in. Mmm.

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Speaker 4: Do you think the universe is bonkers? Like it is

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Speaker 4: bonkers or it was made bonkers or made by a bonkers.

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Speaker 1: I won't speak to the mind of the creator if

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Speaker 1: one exists, but it does continue to astound me how

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Speaker 1: strange and how weird the universe is, and the fact

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Speaker 1: that it is weird, that it seems strange, that it's

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Speaker 1: counter to our expectations because we are part of the universe,

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Speaker 1: So why doesn't it feel intuitive to us?

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Speaker 4: Well, you know what I always say, If your expectations

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Speaker 4: are not being met, maybe you should change your expectations, Daniel.

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Speaker 1: I should try the Scandinavian approach. Just expect to be

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Speaker 1: disappointed all the time and then be pleased when you're not.

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Speaker 4: Or expect to be surprised. You know, it's only weird

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Speaker 4: because you think it's weird, Because it doesn't mean you deep.

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Speaker 4: But really, really, the universe was here first, so that's true.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the universe thinks we're weird. We are kind of

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Speaker 1: bonkers after all.

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Speaker 4: Well, welcome to our bonkers podcast. Daniel and Jorge Explain

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Speaker 4: the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we have no idea what the universe thinks

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Speaker 1: of us, but we do dive deep into what human

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Speaker 1: minds think about the universe, the questions we have about

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Speaker 1: the way it works, that the tiniest scale of frothing,

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Speaker 1: buzzing quantum particles to the very biggest scale of ga

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Speaker 1: flexy formations, and the entire fate of the universe. We

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Speaker 1: question the very nature of reality. We peel it back

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Speaker 1: to see what's going on underneath, and we explain all

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Speaker 1: of it to you, at least as far as we understand.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because it is a pretty big universe, and there's

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Speaker 4: a lot that seems very puzzling and perplexing to us.

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Speaker 4: It's you know, wonderful and amazing and beautiful, it seems

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Speaker 4: sometimes but also a little bit terrifying and powerful and

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Speaker 4: sometimes even dangerous.

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Speaker 1: It sometimes seems amazing that we even live here. You know,

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Speaker 1: we could have been wiped out by a supernova nearby,

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Speaker 1: or it could be that with small changes in the

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Speaker 1: nature of the particles, we couldn't have had the chemistry

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Speaker 1: we need for life to happen. Sometimes it seems like

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Speaker 1: a lot of things had to go just right for

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Speaker 1: us to evolve and to survive.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and if we hadn't been here, who would be

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Speaker 4: asking these questions, Daniel, that's the main question.

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Speaker 1: Probably some better looking, smarter version of us, if that's

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Speaker 1: even possible. Yeah, yeah, impossible, But we just disproved that

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Speaker 1: theory or improbable.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, it is a pretty amazing universe. And sometimes

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Speaker 4: you have to wonder, like how did it come to

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Speaker 4: be like that? And how it came to be that

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Speaker 4: we are here and we are looking at it and

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Speaker 4: wondering how it works.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and that is one of the deepest questions

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Speaker 1: in physics. We are often asking how do things work?

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Speaker 1: What's going on with these particles? But underlying that there

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Speaker 1: is a question standing in the wings waiting for an answer,

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Speaker 1: And that question really is why this universe? Why is

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Speaker 1: the universe in this one and not some other one?

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Speaker 1: Could it have been a different universe or is this

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Speaker 1: the only possible way for universe? To exist. What does

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Speaker 1: it mean that we ended up in this universe?

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Speaker 4: Well, for thankful that we are in this universe, I guess,

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Speaker 4: or that this universe is here for us. But to

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Speaker 4: understand these questions sometimes you kind of have to look

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Speaker 4: outside of physics to think about the new ways in

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Speaker 4: which you might answer these types of queries.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And when we look to biology, for example,

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Speaker 1: we find a very compelling and very powerful, very broadly

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Speaker 1: useful argument for understanding why creatures exist and have certain traits.

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Speaker 1: When we look at, for example, the beaks of and

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Speaker 1: ask like, why do they have that cheap? We get

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Speaker 1: the answer when we look at the nuts they eat

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Speaker 1: or the bugs that they have to pick up. They

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Speaker 1: seem to be very well suited to their environment and

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Speaker 1: for a reason.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So today on the podcast, will we asking the

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Speaker 4: question is the universe the result of natural selection? All right?

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Speaker 4: We're asking some big questions. Did they hear?

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Speaker 1: I know that's sort of mind blowing to imagine, Like

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Speaker 1: the universe is a bird on an island somewhere picking

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Speaker 1: out bugs.

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Speaker 4: I thought we were the birds. Aren't we the birds?

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Speaker 1: I think we might be the bugs or the nuts

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Speaker 1: the nuts?

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Speaker 4: Are we wondering how some things are suited to eat us.

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Speaker 1: No, we are the birds, and when physics is the

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Speaker 1: nut and we are trying to crack it open.

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Speaker 4: Oh boy, I'm gonna be lost in these analogies here.

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Speaker 1: I know I'm driving you nuts, but it is a

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Speaker 1: fun idea to wonder if the universe could have been

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Speaker 1: other ways, and if the universe that we ended up

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Speaker 1: is this way because of some sort of process that

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Speaker 1: guides the formation of universes to end up at one

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Speaker 1: that sort of works.

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Speaker 4: WHOA you mean like the evolution of universes, multiple universes

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Speaker 4: over countless time, somehow changing and evolving.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the idea. We have talked about multiverses in

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Speaker 1: many times on this podcast, but this is sort of

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Speaker 1: like a different take. Instead of imagining the universe is

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Speaker 1: actually many universes all sort of rolled up into one

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Speaker 1: grander idea, this is like, maybe our universe is in

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Speaker 1: competition with other universes on some sort of like meta

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Speaker 1: universe playing field.

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Speaker 4: WHOA, like an African Savannah, but for universes, and there's

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Speaker 4: some kind of predator, some universe predator, some universe eating

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Speaker 4: I think I saw that on an episode of the

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Speaker 4: new show, Look.

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Speaker 1: What can eat an entire universe? Exactly right? And so

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Speaker 1: maybe Marvel got it right.

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Speaker 4: As usual, they can do no wrong. Well, this is

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Speaker 4: a kind of a mind boggling question, big ideas here,

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Speaker 4: and so we were wondering how many people out there

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Speaker 4: had thought about the universe as evolving or as being

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Speaker 4: the result of something like natural selection. So Daniel went

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Speaker 4: out there as usual and ask people on the internet

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Speaker 4: what they thought of this question.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and so thank you to everybody who's willing

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Speaker 1: to entertain my crazy questions without the opportunity to think

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Speaker 1: about it or to prepare. If you'd like to participate

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Speaker 1: for a future episode, we would love to hear your

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Speaker 1: voice on the podcast. Just write us an email, no

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Speaker 1: special equipment required. Shoot us an email to questions at

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Speaker 1: Danielandthorge dot com.

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Speaker 4: So think about it for a second. If someone asks

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Speaker 4: you what is cosmological natural selection? What would come to

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Speaker 4: mind in your brain? Here's what people had to say.

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Speaker 6: I'm gonna say, those bodies orbiting around a star that

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Speaker 6: have the most stable gravitational orbits last the longest.

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Speaker 1: Every star, for itself, may the strongest in the universe

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Speaker 1: survive and the weakest universal objects become space dust.

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Speaker 5: Well, I guess planet, stars, galaxies, et cetera. Survival of

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Speaker 5: the fittests would apply to another star is more likely

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Speaker 5: to pass on positive traits. Does that have an influence

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Speaker 5: on the next generation stars.

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Speaker 7: Maybe it's a theory that explains why there are no

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Speaker 7: medium sized black holes by using an analogy from evolution.

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Speaker 7: Maybe there were some conditions in the environment that made

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Speaker 7: them go extinct, while the super massive black holes we

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Speaker 7: see today lived on and procreated. Assuming that's the thing

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Speaker 7: they can do, all right.

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Speaker 4: Nobody said in African Savannah with universes.

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Speaker 1: Nobody talked about something eating universes. It's a pretty crazy

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Speaker 1: idea to encapsulate in just three words cosmological natural selection.

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Speaker 1: So we didn't give them a whole lot to go on.

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Speaker 4: It seems like people didn't trigger something big in their heads.

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Speaker 4: Like most people stuck to stars or galaxies as maybe evolving,

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Speaker 4: but nobody thought about the universe evolving.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of too crazy, you know, it's sort of

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Speaker 1: too big an idea to even leap too from this concept.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of bold, But you know, I like that.

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Speaker 1: I like that about bold ideas, Like first you hear

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Speaker 1: about this thing, you think, what, that's great. Hold on

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Speaker 1: a second, Maybe that makes a little bit of sense.

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Speaker 1: That's the nice thing about crazy, big.

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Speaker 4: Ideas, I guess, you know, even ideas like the multiverse,

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Speaker 4: at some point, you know, seem crazy and insane, but

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Speaker 4: now people seem to kind of accept it, and some

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Speaker 4: people even assume it's true, like people like Marvel.

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Speaker 1: That you can't necessarily turn that around. Just because some

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Speaker 1: ideas which now make a lot of sense once seemed

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Speaker 1: crazy doesn't mean that every crazy seeming idea will eventually

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Speaker 1: make sense, right right, right.

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Speaker 4: Sense only works one way. It only makes sense to

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Speaker 4: makes sense one way.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of crazy seeming ideas that we

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Speaker 1: don't talk about anymore because they still seem crazy right.

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Speaker 4: The whole, Like the universe is like turtles and turtles

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Speaker 4: all the way down on top of some elephants or

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Speaker 4: something that also seems bonkers. But that doesn't mean it's true.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. It's got to have some legs, it's got

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Speaker 1: to solve some problem, it's got to open up avenues

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Speaker 1: for exploration, and it's got to sort of hanging together mathematically.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean, turtles do solve all problems, do you

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Speaker 4: think about it?

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Speaker 1: And they have legs?

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Speaker 4: They do have legs, yeah, although they do it kind

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Speaker 4: of slowly. So we're still waiting for those turtles. All right, Well,

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Speaker 4: to step us through this, Daniel, this big idea, what

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Speaker 4: is the cosmological natural selection?

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Speaker 1: So cosmological natural selection is a really fun creative idea

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Speaker 1: by a physicist named Lee Smullen, a theoretical physicist, and

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Speaker 1: it's in solution to what physics calls a fine tuning problem,

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Speaker 1: which is just a fancy way of saying, like, why

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Speaker 1: is the universe the way that it is, because it

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Speaker 1: seems like it could have been lots of other ways.

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Speaker 1: So before we dig into how he tries to answer

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Speaker 1: that question, let's make sure we have like a good

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Speaker 1: grasp on what the question is. What is the problem

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Speaker 1: we're trying to solve. Why is it tricky to understand

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Speaker 1: that the universe is this way and not some other way?

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Speaker 4: Right? Because you know, as physicists, you've been sort of

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Speaker 4: drilling down on the equations that make the universe work,

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Speaker 4: and yet some point you come upon something that you're like,

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Speaker 4: you can't explain, like it just seems to be the

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Speaker 4: way it is. Because it seems to be the way

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Speaker 4: it is, Like you can't really explain why pi is

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Speaker 4: three point one four or the cosmological constant is x.

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Speaker 1: Right, that's exactly right. You know. The grand goal of

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Speaker 1: physics is to summarize everything we see, all phenomena, all matter,

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Speaker 1: all energy, all forces in terms of one concept, you know,

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Speaker 1: like maybe a single equation that we could write onto

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Speaker 1: a T shirt. And so we've made a lot of

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Speaker 1: progress there. We have a few equations. They don't quite

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Speaker 1: fit onto a T shirt, but they're kind of beautiful

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Speaker 1: and compact, and you know, they describe a portion of

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Speaker 1: the universe, and we understand that we've explored.

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Speaker 4: Well, it depends on the size of your T shirt.

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Speaker 4: Just to get a bigger T shirt, Like I said,

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Speaker 4: just adjust your expectations of what a T shirt is

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Speaker 4: or how many people can fit in. It might solve

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Speaker 4: your problem.

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Speaker 1: That's right. If we go to microfont then it's no problem.

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Speaker 1: We can describe the whole universe on a T shirt.

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Speaker 1: But currently we have this model of particles and their interactions.

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Speaker 1: We call it the standard model, and as you say,

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Speaker 1: there are parts of it that we don't understand, you know,

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Speaker 1: not just the structure. But there's lots of questions about

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Speaker 1: the structure of you know, like why are there copies

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Speaker 1: of these particles electron mwon towel. But also just we

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Speaker 1: find numbers in these equations, and those numbers have no

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Speaker 1: explanation that we can find. They are just numbers, and

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Speaker 1: the theory doesn't tell us what those numbers have to be.

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Speaker 1: We have to go out and measure them. One of

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Speaker 1: these numbers, for example, as you say, is the cosmological

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Speaker 1: constant this rate at which the universe seems to be expanding.

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Speaker 1: We don't know why that number is what it is.

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Speaker 1: We have no theoretical prediction for what it should be.

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Speaker 1: It's just like a placeholder, like a parameter. It's sort

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Speaker 1: of like you're in the control panel for the universe

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Speaker 1: and it just has these knobs. You know. The structure

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Speaker 1: of the universe is this control panel, and you could

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Speaker 1: turn the values of these parameters up or down and

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Speaker 1: maybe get different universes that follow the same basic laws

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Speaker 1: of physics. But we know with different settings on those knobs, right.

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Speaker 4: They seem like arbitrary, like somebody came in before you

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Speaker 4: and adjusted too these dials, and then you came in

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Speaker 4: and you're like, why did you set these dials?

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Speaker 1: Yess fact that we have no explanation and for why

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Speaker 1: these numbers are what they are. And you might be

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Speaker 1: tempted to think about numbers like the speed of light

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Speaker 1: because we don't know why the speed of light is

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Speaker 1: the speed of light. You know, why isn't it not

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Speaker 1: faster or slower. It's a little tricky because the speed

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Speaker 1: of light has units on it, right, it's meters per second.

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Speaker 1: So the actual number there depends on the units you choose.

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Speaker 1: If you change the meter or change the second, you

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Speaker 1: get a different number. So physicists like to focus on

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Speaker 1: dimensionless numbers. You can rearrange all these constants of the

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Speaker 1: universe in ratios and whatever to get rid of the units.

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Speaker 1: And you know, with pure numbers, numbers that just are.

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Speaker 1: And you know, if all those numbers were one, we'd

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Speaker 1: be like, cool, that makes sense. Or if all those

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Speaker 1: numbers were ten or something, it would make sense. But

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Speaker 1: they're all really different. Some of them are really small,

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Speaker 1: some of them are really large, and we just have

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Speaker 1: no explanation for them. So, as you say, they seem

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Speaker 1: kind of arbitrary, and we wonder, you know, like could

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Speaker 1: they be different. Could you have had in other universe

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Speaker 1: with different values of those numbers? And we think through

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Speaker 1: like what the physics could be like? But the physics

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Speaker 1: would be really really different, would be totally different from

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Speaker 1: the one we see. And so we wonder, like, why

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Speaker 1: are these values what they are? They seem to be

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Speaker 1: sort of just right to give us the universe that

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Speaker 1: we have.

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Speaker 4: So these are like ratios, I imagine it. We'd be

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Speaker 4: like saying, what is the rate at which the universe

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Speaker 4: is expanding? It's like, you know, the seven point four

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Speaker 4: to seven percent and so that's that's a dimensionless constant too,

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Speaker 4: write a percentage. So is that what you mean? Like

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Speaker 4: ratios of like the number of so and so particles

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Speaker 4: through so and so other particles.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that kind of thing. So one of the most

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Speaker 1: important dimensionless constant is called the fine structure constant. It

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Speaker 1: includes the speed of light and the charge of the

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Speaker 1: electron and planks constant. And if you change that number,

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Speaker 1: then physics changes because that affects like how strongly electrons

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Speaker 1: and paus chars repel each other, and you know the

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Speaker 1: distances at which things feel these kinds of forces. Other

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Speaker 1: important ones are ratios of the masses of the particles,

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Speaker 1: like why is the muon so much heavier than the electron?

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Speaker 1: Why is the top quark so much heavier than everything else?

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Speaker 1: You know, if you change those numbers, you also really

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Speaker 1: change how physics work, you know, like what if the

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Speaker 1: electron wasn't the lightest lepton? What if we had muons

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Speaker 1: in our bodies instead of electrons because muons were lighter mass,

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Speaker 1: Like that would really change everything.

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Speaker 4: Right, But you're really sort of asking two questions, right,

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Speaker 4: aren't you. Like you're asking, for example, in the case

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Speaker 4: of the electron, like what is the mass of the

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Speaker 4: electron the way it is? And also why is the

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Speaker 4: mass of the other cousins of the electron you know,

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Speaker 4: a certain number of times that mass of the electron.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And so there's lots of different ways you

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Speaker 1: can arrange these things. But fundamentally, we're looking at a

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Speaker 1: set of numbers, and those numbers control the way the

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Speaker 1: universe is. And we don't know why those numbers are

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Speaker 1: what they are. And you know, as you said earlier,

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Speaker 1: one possible explanation is we know if those numbers were different,

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Speaker 1: who would be here asking that question? And that's a

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Speaker 1: popular answer. It goes by the name of the anthropic principle.

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Speaker 1: It just says that if the numbers were different, you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't get humans, and you wouldn't get intelligence, and nobody

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Speaker 1: would be asking. So, only in a universe where things

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Speaker 1: happen to work in just this way do you have

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Speaker 1: people to ask that question. So you want to ask

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Speaker 1: that question when it's possible, And that's sort of like

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Speaker 1: a circular explanation. But a lot of people like that answer.

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Speaker 4: Sort of like my kids asking why is our house

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Speaker 4: designed that way? It's like they were just born into

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Speaker 4: the house. If I'm born in a different house, they

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Speaker 4: would be asking a different question about that house.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Or it's like kids asking, you know, why am

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Speaker 1: I here? Why was I created? And not some other kid?

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Speaker 1: You know, like, well, if I'd had a different kid,

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Speaker 1: because you know, you'd been conceived in a different moment,

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Speaker 1: that kid might be asking the same question, or you know,

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Speaker 1: have different interest or whatever, ask a different question.

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Speaker 4: Right, Basically, you want to tell your kids they are

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Speaker 4: not special.

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Speaker 1: Of course my kids are special.

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Speaker 4: I'd ask the kids. I don't know about it, but

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Speaker 4: of course, yeah, that sounds like an anthrophic parenting.

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Speaker 1: And my complaint with this is that it's sort of

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Speaker 1: like giving up. It's sort of like saying there is

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Speaker 1: no explanation, look no further, Whereas what I like in

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Speaker 1: science is when you're always trying to dig deeper. You're

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Speaker 1: always saying, there must be a reason for this to happen.

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Speaker 1: Let's look deeper, because it's possible that there is a

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Speaker 1: deeper answer. Right. We certainly don't have the final theory

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Speaker 1: of physics. We know that our description of particles and

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Speaker 1: their interactions is flawed and limited, because we know, for example,

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Speaker 1: it breaks down if you have really really high energies.

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Speaker 1: Our theory just doesn't work. And so we know we

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Speaker 1: need some sort of deeper theory. And so maybe you

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Speaker 1: know there is some deeper explanation one we just haven't

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Speaker 1: found yet, that explains these values and says these values

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Speaker 1: have to be certain numbers, Like, there's not arbitrary. It

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Speaker 1: only works if they are these numbers. We just don't

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Speaker 1: quite see the full picture yet, And so I don't

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Speaker 1: like the anthropic answer because I always want to strive

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Speaker 1: for that deeper understanding.

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Speaker 4: Right, Like, maybe you'll dig deeper into the equations and

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Speaker 4: find that if the electron had half the mess that

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Speaker 4: it does right now, it just doesn't make for a

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Speaker 4: logical universe or like a universe that you know gives

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Speaker 4: you two plus to equals seven, Like that's what you want.

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Speaker 4: You want to boil it down to one equation and say, look,

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Speaker 4: if you change this, then you wouldn't it wouldn't logically work, right,

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Speaker 4: because that's kind of the only when you say, like

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Speaker 4: it's things have to be a certain way, like not

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Speaker 4: being able to be a certain way means that it

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Speaker 4: would be illogical.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and people are looking for a theory of the

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Speaker 1: universe that's self consistent, right, So the sort of philosophical

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Speaker 1: implication there is that only self consistent universes can exist.

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Speaker 1: And so maybe there's a reason why those other values

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Speaker 1: of those numbers make for some inconsistency, and there you'd

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Speaker 1: need to have some sort of physics principle we haven't

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Speaker 1: yet discovered, right that shows us why those things would

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Speaker 1: be inconsistent, you know, And we don't have that, but

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Speaker 1: we can sketch the sort of like rough idea. You know, maybe,

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Speaker 1: for example, string theory is correct, and at the basic

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Speaker 1: level the universe are these little tiny vibrating strings and

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Speaker 1: they can only vibrate in certain ways and because of

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Speaker 1: their basic fundamental nature, and that leads to certain properties

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Speaker 1: that we then measure, you know, at our scale, which

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Speaker 1: have to come out this certain way. And you just

436
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,600
Speaker 1: can't have an electron with a different charge and you

437
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,840
Speaker 1: can't have them you on, with four times as much

438
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 1: mass as the electron. You have to have the numbers

439
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 1: that we have now, and it comes out of some

440
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,879
Speaker 1: deeper logic that we just don't know yet. So we

441
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:06,680
Speaker 1: don't have that theory yet, but you know, you can

442
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,199
Speaker 1: imagine that kind of theory existing, right, But.

443
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,600
Speaker 4: That is still satisfy you though as a physicist, like

444
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:13,640
Speaker 4: did you say, well, that's just the way the universe

445
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:15,680
Speaker 4: is and it has to be that way because of

446
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:16,679
Speaker 4: the way the universe is.

447
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 1: Oh, I'll never be satisfied, absolutely not now when we

448
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,240
Speaker 1: get that answer that explains all the mysteries we see today,

449
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 1: there will just always be more questions. And that's what

450
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,040
Speaker 1: I don't like about the anthropic principle, because it stops

451
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,440
Speaker 1: you from asking that next round of questions, Whereas I

452
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 1: feel like science is this cycle of digging ever deeper

453
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,120
Speaker 1: into the most basic questions. And you know, even if

454
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,200
Speaker 1: we exhaust physics and we get just one single theory

455
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 1: that describes the whole universe. Will always have philosophy because

456
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,200
Speaker 1: we can always ask like, well, what does it mean?

457
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 8: Man?

458
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:47,000
Speaker 4: What does it mean? And that's one potential way to

459
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 4: answer why the universe is the way it is. Why

460
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 4: those numbers are all the way the numbers that they are.

461
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:54,679
Speaker 4: Maybe there's some ask yet to be discovered, you know,

462
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 4: equation or theory that explains them all that makes them

463
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,879
Speaker 4: want to be those numbers or makes them have to

464
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 4: those numbers. But then there's another theory about what could

465
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:03,919
Speaker 4: explain them, right.

466
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, And another way to approach this problem is to say,

467
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 1: maybe the values aren't arbitrary, maybe they are random, Like

468
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 1: maybe it's possible to have different universes with different values,

469
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 1: and all the universes with all the different values exist.

470
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,679
Speaker 1: This is the multiverse explanation, to say that maybe all

471
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 1: those possible universes are out there with these different values

472
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,400
Speaker 1: of the parameters, and there's different physics in each one,

473
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,239
Speaker 1: and this just happens to be the one that we

474
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:30,680
Speaker 1: are in.

475
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 4: Right. It's like you walk into a control room. You

476
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 4: see all the knobs turn to a certain number for

477
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:36,879
Speaker 4: all the values of the universe, and you're like, why

478
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 4: are they like this? And the answer is sort of like, well,

479
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 4: that's because there's another control room next to you with

480
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,439
Speaker 4: the value set a little bit different, and next to

481
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 4: that one is another control room with the value set

482
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 4: a little bit different at up to infinity.

483
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 1: That's sort of an explanation, and it doesn't answer questions like,

484
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 1: you know, well, who chooses those values? Or is it

485
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 1: truly random like quantum mechanically random, or is it like

486
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,919
Speaker 1: systematic where you get one universe for every possible value.

487
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 1: Are there an infinite number of them? There's so many

488
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,640
Speaker 1: questions opened up by that, and unfortunately, it's pretty difficult

489
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 1: to probe that kind of theory, like where do you

490
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 1: go from here? You know, if those universes exist or not?

491
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: You know, can we ever discover them? Know, can we

492
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 1: interact with them?

493
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 2: No?

494
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 1: So can we prove fundamentally that they exist? Folks like

495
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: Sean Carroll would argue that you can sort of implicitly

496
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: prove they exist if you demonstrate that it's the only

497
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 1: way to make sense of the universe, that our theory

498
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 1: of physics requires that they exist, and it's the only

499
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 1: theory that you can develop. It's a bit weaker than

500
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,920
Speaker 1: actually finding them and exploring them. But you know, it's

501
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: an argument to suggest that the multiverse might be real, So.

502
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 4: I guess that would sort of explain why we have

503
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:46,679
Speaker 4: the one we have, is that it's just like a

504
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 4: random role to die. Although could you make the argument

505
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 4: that you know, the universe only roll to die? Ones

506
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 4: like does it have to roll to die an infinite

507
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 4: number of times?

508
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:57,919
Speaker 1: It's a great question and one that's hard to probe.

509
00:23:57,920 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: But what we can do is look at the numbers

510
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,719
Speaker 1: we have and ask are they likely? Is this a

511
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: likely arrangement? And here we get in a really fuzzy territory.

512
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 1: But physicists look at the numbers we have and they

513
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 1: feel weird about them. They're like, the cosmogical constant is

514
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: very small, and these other numbers seem kind of large,

515
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: and why is gravity so so weak? And you know

516
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 1: why all the forces have such a different strengths. And

517
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 1: they make these really handwaby arguments that suggest that the

518
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: numbers we have are somehow improbable or unnatural, and it's

519
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: more likely to get a different set of values, and

520
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 1: that makes our universe seem sort of like weird on

521
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: this like multiverse landscape. And I don't know if that's

522
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: an argument against the multiverse exactly, but it suggests that

523
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 1: you might need some sort of mechanism to explain why

524
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 1: we have these numbers. And if this is the only one,

525
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 1: then you know, the universe got really unlucky or lucky,

526
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: depending on your point of view.

527
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 4: Oh, I think the universe is totally lucky to have us,

528
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 4: at least you, Daniel. At least we're lucky to have you.

529
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,400
Speaker 4: All Right, Well, we have this big question about why

530
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 4: the universe is the way it is. There are some theories,

531
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 4: but they're a little bit unsatisfying, and so there's sort

532
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 4: of a new or emerging idea that seems really interesting,

533
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 4: and it's all about evolution. So let's get into that.

534
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 4: But first, let's take a quick break.

535
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,280
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592
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Speaker 4: All right, Daniel, what does it all mean? Man? Why

603
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,959
Speaker 4: are we here? Why is the universe of way it is?

604
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 4: What does it seem so suited to us for us

605
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 4: to be comfortable in our houses here having a conversation

606
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 4: about the way it works?

607
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Maybe we are just the beaks of those birds,

608
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: perfectly evolved to fit into the trees and grab out

609
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: those grubs. And you know, that's the inspiration, is that

610
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: we see in biology that it's not random that animals

611
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: are well suited to their environments, that they're very fine tuned, right,

612
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: And they're fine tuned for a reason. There's a mechanism there.

613
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: Natural selection operates by enhancing those that are well suited

614
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: right and killing off those that are not, And so

615
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: you're more likely to end up with critters that are

616
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: well suited to the environment. So the environment then shapes

617
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: the nature of the critters. And so the idea was,

618
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: take that and can we use that to explain sort

619
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: of how we find the universe to be fine tuned?

620
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: Is there some mechanism we can use to explain how

621
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: the universe itself selected these values?

622
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 4: So in this analogy, in this idea to explain why

623
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 4: the universe is the way it is somehow, like the

624
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 4: universe has been in some environment and it's sort of

625
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 4: arranged itself, or it came to be the way it

626
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 4: is now because of some natural selection process. That that's

627
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 4: kind of the idea.

628
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, But if not being selected for us or

629
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: for physics that make sense, or for physicists or for cartoonists,

630
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: is being selected for universes with lots of black holes

631
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: in it?

632
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 3: What?

633
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: Yeah? So the basic idea is maybe universes can give

634
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: birth to other universes by creating new universes inside their

635
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: black holes, and that would tend to give you lots

636
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: of universes that have lots of black holes in them.

637
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: You would end up with more universes that have lots

638
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: of black holes than universes that don't have lots of

639
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: black holes. And so maybe our universe is fine tuned

640
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: to have the sets of parameters you would need to

641
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: give you universes with lots of black holes.

642
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 4: WHOA, Okay, I feel like you just introduced a lot

643
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 4: of crazy ideas here, Like, first of all, like universe

644
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 4: giving birth to other universes, don't you need to universes?

645
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 4: Is this a mono biological birth? What do you call

646
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 4: those animals that can just split off, just butt off?

647
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: Asexual reproduction?

648
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 4: Yes, that's right, Yes, right? Is the universe asexual?

649
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: Yeah? It could be that universe is reproduced in lots

650
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: of different ways. We're open minded on this podcast, but

651
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: the idea is not totally bonkers. It comes from the

652
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: recognition that there's a connection between what happens inside a

653
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: black hole and what happens at the beginning of our universe,

654
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: and that connection is a singularity. Right. We know that

655
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: our universe started with a singularity. That's this crazy dense

656
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: moment when the universe was like infinitely dense and then

657
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: expanded out really rapidly. We call that the Big Bang.

658
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: And we know that there's a singularity at the heart

659
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: of black holes, or we think there is, according to

660
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: general relativity. And so this idea says, like maybe every

661
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: singularity at the heart of a black hole is actually

662
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 1: a singularity to create a new universe.

663
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 4: WHOA, But then I guess. So, then the idea is

664
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 4: that the universe that is created inside of a black

665
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 4: hole exists within the black hole, or does it grow

666
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 4: out and take over its parent universe.

667
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: It exists within the black hole. So the idea is

668
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: that instead of imagining inside a black hole, you have

669
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: like a dead singularity. This is just like super dense

670
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: point that instead you have something dynamic that it's a

671
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: bounce instead of like just a collapse into a singularity.

672
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 1: That matter collapses, you get this moment of great density,

673
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: and then you get a new expanding region of space

674
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: time within the black hole. It never escapes, you can't

675
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: see it from the outside of the black hole, but

676
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: that maybe inside black holes we have this region of

677
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: expanding space time begin with the singularity of infinite density,

678
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: just like our universe. And so it's sort of like

679
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: this bounce moment where it collapses into a singularity and

680
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: then starts expanding.

681
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 4: Out again, expanding but still inside of the black hole,

682
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 4: still inside of it's like a little bubble inside of

683
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 4: the black hole of regular space.

684
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: And this sort of connects to an idea we talked

685
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: about recently about whether black holes actually are black holes,

686
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: and we talked about how these objects, whatever they are,

687
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: are in regions of very warped space time, which means

688
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: that their time slows down dramatically. So when you're looking

689
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: at a black hole, instead of looking at something which

690
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: is sort of like a dead singularity, you might be

691
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,479
Speaker 1: looking at something dynamic which is collapsing and then going

692
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: to bounce back. But it's just super duper slowed down,

693
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: so that what takes microseconds in its time takes billions

694
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: or trillions of years for us. So this is sort

695
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: of a similar idea to say, maybe black holes are

696
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: not just like static little dense objects collecting more mass,

697
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: but there are this bounce where you come to a

698
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: point of great density and then start expanding out into effectively,

699
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: what's a new universe inside each black hole?

700
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 4: WHOA, But then wouldn't that mean that each universe is

701
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 4: like bounded or finite, you know, like it has a

702
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 4: limited amount of energy to it, whereas you know, it

703
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 4: seems like our universe has almost looks almost infinite and

704
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 4: it has almost infinite amount of energy. How did all

705
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 4: this stuff that we're living in come from, like a

706
00:33:58,520 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 4: tiny black hole for example?

707
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, that would mean that there is a bound

708
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: on the universe, but we don't know if our universe

709
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: is bounded, with some of our theories of cosmology suggest

710
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 1: that it should be infinite. It would be most natural

711
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: if it were infinite, but we just don't know that,

712
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 1: and we can only see a limited part of the universe.

713
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: The portion of the universe we can see now is

714
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: about ninety three billion light years wide, and we just

715
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: don't know what's beyond that. And we also know that

716
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: our universe is expanding, and the mechanism for that is

717
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 1: totally unexplained. So it is possible that our entire universe

718
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,320
Speaker 1: is inside some like mega black hole that's just unimaginably wide.

719
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 4: Okay, So then the idea is that in our universe,

720
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 4: or basically any universe, whenever there's a black hole, it's

721
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 4: sort of creating a whole new kind of universe. And

722
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 4: those new universes are the same or slightly different than

723
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 4: the parent universe.

724
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: They're slightly different. So when you create a new universe

725
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: inside a black hole somehow, and this is like where

726
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 1: the magic happens, the laws of physics tweak a little bit,

727
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: like that process of bending space time in that singularity

728
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,919
Speaker 1: somehow changes the fundamental constants of that universe a little bit.

729
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: And this part of the theory is extremely fuzzy, is

730
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: like we don't have a mechanism to understand how that

731
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: might happen. It's just like a what if. And so

732
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: in that way you can sort of like explore different

733
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: possible universes. You can in one universe create lots of

734
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 1: babies with different sort of properties, the same way that

735
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: in natural selection, if a spider has a thousand offspring

736
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: and they're all a little bit different than the ones

737
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: that are best suited to survival, will continue. So in

738
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: this model, you create lots of baby universes in lots

739
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 1: of black holes, and the ones that are more likely

740
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: to create more black holes within them. So now black

741
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: holes within black holes are more likely to create more universes.

742
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 4: Right, so you can just call those black holes turtles,

743
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 4: and it is sort of turtles all the way. Now,

744
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 4: I think a big question here is you know, like

745
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 4: in natural selection and regular biological evolution, you have DNA,

746
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 4: and that makes sense that like your DNA changes a

747
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 4: little and then your kids carry on that DNA that's

748
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 4: changed a little bit. But like you said, there's sort

749
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 4: of no known way in which like that new universe

750
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 4: will have different constants, right, Like, why would it have

751
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 4: different constants if it's being born in the in the

752
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 4: universe with certain laws and certain constants.

753
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, that's not something we understand. And you're right,

754
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 1: Like for natural selection, we understand the mechanism of it, right,

755
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: you have the genetic code which is then modified, and

756
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: so in this case, we have no explanation for how

757
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: that happens, no mechanism for it. You know, maybe the

758
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: fundamental constants of the universe are stored in some deep

759
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,760
Speaker 1: process and the creation of a singularity disturbs that process.

760
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: Really just speculating, and the theory itself has not been

761
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: fleshed out. We don't have any sort of like DNA

762
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: like mechanism that explains where these parameters are like stored

763
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 1: and how they might be modified by a singularities. Really

764
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,760
Speaker 1: just speculation. But you know, physics works this way. Sometimes

765
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: we're like, let's you know, put a bunch of dots

766
00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 1: down and we'll come back later and connect those dots.

767
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: Let's see how far we can get with sort of

768
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: a string of big ideas, and you know, we'll circle

769
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: back and fill in some of the crucial details later.

770
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 4: All right, Well, so then the basic idea is that

771
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 4: you know, our universe makes a whole bunch of black holes.

772
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 4: In each of those black holes has a universe, and

773
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 4: some of our baby universes make more black holes, and

774
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:19,760
Speaker 4: some of them don't make a lot of black holes.

775
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 4: And so the ones that make more black holes are

776
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 4: then going to have their own kid universes who are

777
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 4: also good at making black holes, and some of them

778
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 4: will make more black holes. And eventually don't you get

779
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 4: to a universe that's all black holes.

780
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: And that's the idea that this process is more likely

781
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 1: to give you universes that are likely to have black holes,

782
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,800
Speaker 1: and so you should end up with universes where the

783
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,760
Speaker 1: numbers are fine tuned to sort of maximize black holes.

784
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: And so that's the argument at least Mollan makes, as

785
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: he says, I'm looking at the parameters, and it seems

786
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 1: to me like if you change some of these parameters,

787
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 1: you end up with fewer black holes in the universe.

788
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,879
Speaker 1: And so maybe our universe is sort of like at

789
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: the maximum black hole holiness.

790
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,919
Speaker 4: Oh, I see, that's the idea that somehow maybe we're

791
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 4: at the maximum black hole capacity, like this is the

792
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 4: most that any universe can make of black holes.

793
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,359
Speaker 1: That's sort of the argument, and we'll talk later about

794
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: whether that's actually true. But you know, it's got to

795
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 1: maximize something. And it's interesting this idea that it doesn't

796
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: maximize us, right. I like this idea because it's not anthrocentric.

797
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 1: It's not like the universe was created for us. It's like, oh,

798
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,919
Speaker 1: it turns out we're a byproduct of the universe being

799
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: optimized for something totally different, which is production of black holes.

800
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: And that's pretty cool. And you know, it's interesting how

801
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: many black holes there are, right, There are black holes everywhere.

802
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: Every galaxy is a super massive black hole in it.

803
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: Stars are collapsing into black holes all the time. It

804
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: does seem like the fate of our universe, as you say,

805
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: is to end up as a huge string of black holes.

806
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: So it does kind of feel like we are at

807
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: maximal black.

808
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 4: Holiness, and we should rename the podcast to maximal black holiness.

809
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 4: That has a better ring to it. Maybe. All right, well,

810
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 4: let's get into what does it all mean man, and

811
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 4: is this theory right or is it totally bombers? But

812
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 4: first let's take another quick break.

813
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,240
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

814
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

815
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite,

816
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are. US Dairy

817
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse

818
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working

819
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,560
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820
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

821
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,919
Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four

822
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,439
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823
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824
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:48,080
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825
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:52,040
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826
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: and electric cars. So the next time you grab a

827
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: slice of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know

828
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:58,919
Speaker 1: that dairy farmers and processors around the country are using

829
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,479
Speaker 1: the latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense

830
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 1: dairy products we love with less of an impact visit

831
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Speaker 1: us dairy dot com Slash Sustainability to learn more.

832
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843
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844
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863
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864
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865
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Speaker 10: does your memory drift so much, Why is it so

868
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,760
Speaker 10: hard to keep a secret, When should you not trust

869
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:43,240
Speaker 10: your intuition? Why do brains so easily fall for magic tricks?

870
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 10: And why do they love conspiracy?

871
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: Theories.

872
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 10: I'm hitting these questions and hundreds more because the more

873
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 10: we know about what's running under the hood, the better

874
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 10: we can steer our lives. Join me weekly to explore

875
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 10: the relationship between your brain and your life by digging

876
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 10: into unexpected questions. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman

877
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 10: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple.

878
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 4: Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we

879
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 4: are talking about cosmological natural selection, the idea that the

880
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 4: universe somehow evolved to be the way it is and

881
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 4: that's why it is the way it is. We talked

882
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 4: about how maybe the universe is the way it is

883
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 4: because we're at like optimal black hole making capacity of

884
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 4: the universe, and so that's why the universe is the

885
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 4: way it is and not some other way. Yeah. So

886
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 4: I saw that question was why do we think that

887
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 4: we're at optimal maximal black holiness or black hole making capacity?

888
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 4: Like couldn't it feels like there's a lot of room

889
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 4: still left in the universe for to make more black holes?

890
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, how would you make our universe black holier?

891
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 4: And don't I just poke a bunch of holes in it?

892
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 4: You know? Like why not? Like couldn't our universe be

893
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 4: such a way that they pop up more randomly or something.

894
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 1: It's really interesting to think about. And you know, take

895
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 1: some of these parameters, like the mass of the strange

896
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 1: quirk for example, you know, relative to the mass of

897
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: the other quarks. It's interesting because that actually does help

898
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: determine the number of black holes in our universe, because

899
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 1: it creates an opportunity for matter to form something that's

900
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 1: not a black hole, that's a neutron star. Like if

901
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: you have not enough stuff in your star, then sometimes

902
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 1: when it collapses, it doesn't form a black hole. Instead

903
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: it forms a neutron star, and it forms a neutron

904
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 1: star because gravity isn't powerful enough to overcome the nuclear

905
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: forces that are preventing the collapse, and that's partially controlled

906
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 1: by the mass of the strange quirk. You know, what

907
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: happens inside a neutron star is not something that we

908
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 1: understand very well. It's the strong force at work, zillions

909
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: of gluons back and forth all the time. But these

910
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: things are very sensitively dependent on the masses of the

911
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 1: quarks that are involved. And so for example, if you

912
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: increase the strange cork mass, if we were in a

913
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: universe where the strange quark mass was larger than those

914
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,879
Speaker 1: forces would be more powerful and lots more stars would

915
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: collapse into neutron stars instead of black holes. So you

916
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: tweak this parameter, you get fewer black holes in our universe.

917
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 4: But then wouldn't that work the other way too, Like

918
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 4: if you decrease the strange quark mass and you would

919
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 4: get more black holes. So why isn't the mass of

920
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 4: the strange cork smaller if we are at optimal black

921
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 4: hole making capacity?

922
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,879
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, And that's one of the main criticisms. Lise

923
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: Smullen came out with this argument, and he suggested that

924
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: a lot of these parameters are tuned for black holes.

925
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: But then other people came and looked at these parameters, like, actually,

926
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: it's not that hard to make universes that are a

927
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 1: black holier. Joe Silka, famous astronomer, tweaked the parameters and

928
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 1: he came up with a universe that could make ten

929
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: thousand times more black holes than our universe. And you know,

930
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: number one is you decrease the strange cork mass, and

931
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 1: number two is you crank up the strength of gravity. Right,

932
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: So it tends to collapse things faster. You don't want

933
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 1: to crank it up too much, right, You want a

934
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: large number of black holes, not just like a single

935
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: black hole, So you got to let stuff spread out

936
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 1: a little bit and then collapse into a lot of

937
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: black holes.

938
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 4: Oh, I see you're saying things are being selected for

939
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 4: a number of black holes, not like, let's make a

940
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 4: giant black hole, because if you do, then that means

941
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 4: you only have one offspring. Kind of right.

942
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 1: That's right. As fun as that sounds, let's make a

943
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: giant black hole, it's maybe not the best plan if

944
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: your goal is to have lots and lots of baby universes,

945
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: not just one megababy.

946
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 4: Right. But I guess you also don't want to have

947
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 4: you know, lots and lots of or like an infinite

948
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 4: number of tiny baby black holes, right or small, tiny,

949
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 4: sort of easy to evaporate black holes. You want like

950
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 4: a good number of significant black holes as your children Exactly.

951
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: If your black holes are too small, then they will evaporate,

952
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: as you say, because black holes are not completely black,

953
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: they give off a little bit of energy, and they

954
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,760
Speaker 1: give off more energy the smaller they are, so smaller

955
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: black holes are more likely to evaporate away into nothingness.

956
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 1: So you need to be big enough that they can

957
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: be sustained, that they can keep gobbling things. So you

958
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: don't want one mega black hole, you don't want an

959
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 1: infinite number of tiny ones. There is a little bit

960
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: of a balancing act to play there.

961
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 4: So the basic idea is that maybe all those control

962
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 4: maps in the universe, all those numbers that we can't explain,

963
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 4: are the way they are because somehow they maximize the

964
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:20,439
Speaker 4: universe's conditions for making the right, the most and best

965
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 4: kind of black holes.

966
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: Exactly, And that doesn't argue that the universe has to

967
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: be maximized for black holing. Is the suggest that there

968
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 1: are lots of universes out there, but there are more

969
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: that are close to this maximum because they tend to

970
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: produce more. And so if you're going to randomly choose

971
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: among universes to be in, you're more likely to end

972
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: up in the universe that's closer to the maximum.

973
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 4: Oh I see, yeah, because I was wondering, like, in

974
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 4: this idea of the universe evolving or universes evolving, there's

975
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 4: no natural selection process really, right, There's no like predator

976
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 4: killing off weak universes or you know, something destroying the

977
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 4: universes that don't make a lot of black hole. It's

978
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 4: more like you're more represented in the population of all

979
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,280
Speaker 4: the universes that exist if you're good at making black holes.

980
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody can make as many babies as I can,

981
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: and then it's just a race to have the most babies.

982
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: Nobody's eating anybody else's babies. But if you're going to

983
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: randomly pickle somebody to be you're going to end up

984
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: in a family that makes more babies.

985
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 4: Right. So there's like an infinite savannah out there, and

986
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 4: in some universe Africa, there are no predators. You know,

987
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 4: you can multiply as you see fit. But the animals

988
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 4: or universes that are good at multiplying, they're just going

989
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,879
Speaker 4: to be more overrepresent They're going to basically take over

990
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 4: the savannah, right, this infinite savannah. And so then that

991
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,359
Speaker 4: means that we are if we are going to exist

992
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 4: in the universe, we are more likely to exist in

993
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 4: the universe that's good at making baby black holes.

994
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 1: That's the argument. And you know, there's a lot of

995
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 1: steps there and a lot of questions, but it's sort

996
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 1: of the structure of it MMM.

997
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 4: Interesting. So then it's still sort of tentative. And so

998
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 4: what are some criticisms I guess, or what does it

999
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 4: all mean do to have any interesting implications if it

1000
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 4: were true.

1001
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are criticisms of it. People argue that we're

1002
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:01,280
Speaker 1: not actually that close to maximum on black hole production.

1003
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: As I say, people to tweak the parameters and done

1004
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: some simulations and suggested that you could get many, many

1005
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 1: more black holes than you have in our universe. And

1006
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 1: you know the thing about this argument is that it's

1007
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 1: impossible to disprove that way. You could say, oh, well,

1008
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 1: this is the way the universe works. We're just a

1009
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: little bit unlucky. We're close to the maximum, we're not

1010
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 1: necessarily at the maximum.

1011
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 4: We didn't get the best parents. We have pretty good parents.

1012
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 1: We're not in the biggest family. But you know, we're

1013
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: not doing too bad. But it does definitely weaken the argument.

1014
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 1: It would be a more compelling argument if we were

1015
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 1: like right at the maximum and you had this good

1016
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: argument to suggest that certain values of all these universe

1017
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 1: parameters overwhelmed everything else, and so the universe should be

1018
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: totally dominated by numbers very very close to the optimal values.

1019
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:45,399
Speaker 1: So that's not exactly the case.

1020
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 4: Well, I guess a counter argument to that counter argument

1021
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 4: is that, like, maybe we don't really know if we

1022
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 4: are optimized for optimal black holes production. Maybe we are.

1023
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 4: We just don't understand the universe well enough to say, like, no,

1024
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 4: this is this is the best number of black holes.

1025
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 4: If we had ten thousand more black holes, you know,

1026
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 4: the universe wouldn't be sustainable, or those black holes wouldn't

1027
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 4: be good enough to make other universes, do you know

1028
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 4: what I mean?

1029
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:08,800
Speaker 1: That's certainly a good point. We don't know how to

1030
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 1: simulate the whole history of the universe and accurately predict

1031
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 1: the number of black holes, so these simulations are approximations.

1032
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 1: And there's lots we don't understand about the evolution of

1033
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: the universe, big deals about you know, what is dark

1034
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 1: matter and how the universe is expanding and why and when.

1035
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 1: So there's definitely a lot of uncertainty there.

1036
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,800
Speaker 4: Sure, And this also has consequences about the the faith

1037
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 4: of the universe, right, like maybe that means that the

1038
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 4: universes don't implode eventually.

1039
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:34,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this idea is not actually that new sort

1040
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 1: of been developing over a few decades, and it was

1041
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: sort of more in vogue when people thought that the

1042
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: universe was going to end in a big crunch, when

1043
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 1: we thought that maybe gravity was so powerful that it

1044
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,919
Speaker 1: was going to bring the whole universe back together into

1045
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 1: another singularity like inside black holes. You have this like

1046
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 1: cycling bounce theory. You get a singularity and then expanding

1047
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 1: space time like a big bang, and then come back

1048
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 1: to a singularity because people like this idea that every

1049
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:03,879
Speaker 1: universe starts with a singularity and ends with the singularity

1050
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 1: that connects it to like what's happening inside a black hole.

1051
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: But now we know that the universe is less likely

1052
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 1: to do that because we discovered twenty years ago that

1053
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 1: the universe is expanding and that expansion is accelerating. So

1054
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 1: it seems like a big crunch is less likely to

1055
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: be in our future. So that takes a little bit

1056
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: of the shine off of this theory. You know, more

1057
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 1: likely in the future of our universe is not one

1058
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,720
Speaker 1: big crunch, but as we said earlier, lots and lots

1059
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: of very widely distributed black holes, as each sort of

1060
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: local clump of gravitationally dominated matter falls into a mega

1061
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 1: black hole, which is super separated from all the other

1062
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 1: clumps of matter which is falling into their own black holes.

1063
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: So you end up with like a universe with lots

1064
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: and lots of black holes in it and nothing else.

1065
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 4: I see. You're saying, like this new theory by natural

1066
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 4: selection assumes kind of a bouncy universe, But we are

1067
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 4: not seeing that the universe is bouncy. We've seen that

1068
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 4: it's expanding forever.

1069
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 1: It's expanding forever. Yeah, and we are going to end

1070
00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 1: up with more singularities in our future because of all

1071
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: these black holes, but not like one mega singularity that

1072
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: pulls it all together again. But that's not actually critical

1073
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 1: that it's not a fatal flaw because you don't have

1074
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 1: to assume that inside every black hole is a universe

1075
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 1: that's going to bounce. You can just assume that you

1076
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 1: create a new universe and whatever happens inside the universe

1077
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 1: happens inside that universe, even if it means creations of

1078
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,800
Speaker 1: lots of different black holes inside that black hole universe.

1079
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 1: So that's not a fatal flaw.

1080
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 4: Right right. What happens in a black hole stays in

1081
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 4: a black hole.

1082
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 1: That's definitely true. More concerning is that you know, we

1083
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 1: don't understand what the implications are for like black hole mergers.

1084
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 1: We see black holes gobbling up each other, like forming

1085
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 1: a mega black hole as they combine. And that probably

1086
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 1: happened even for things like the black hole the center

1087
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 1: of our galaxy, because our galaxy is likely the product

1088
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,879
Speaker 1: of the collision of several galaxies, each of which had

1089
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,799
Speaker 1: their own black hole. So Sagittarius A at the center

1090
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 1: of our galaxy probably is the result of several black holes.

1091
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: But if each one had a universe inside of it,

1092
00:52:56,640 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 1: what happens when they merge, do the universes collide, get

1093
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 1: some other crazy thing happening? They would have different laws

1094
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 1: of physics inside each black hole. So like you have

1095
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: some sort of like how Senate Reconciliation Committee, we you

1096
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 1: negotiate with the new laws of physics are.

1097
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 4: And we know that always goes smoothly and perfectly.

1098
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,280
Speaker 1: That's right. You know, black holes default on their debtlimit,

1099
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 1: et cetera. And so that's not something that's understood. And

1100
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 1: again this is because this came about before we understood

1101
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 1: how often that happened. When LEGO turned on and we

1102
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 1: saw black hole collisions, we discovered, Wow, black holes are

1103
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: colliding and merging all the time. It's not rare, so

1104
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,240
Speaker 1: it's sort of a new thing to face for this theory.

1105
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 4: Right, Well, we don't know what happens, but that's not

1106
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 4: necessarily an argument against this idea, right, Like, maybe you

1107
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 4: can merge universes that are different, or maybe they annihilate

1108
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 4: each other and they form a new universe, Like you

1109
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 4: just don't know it yet.

1110
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: Right, We just don't know. It's an open question because

1111
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 1: we don't understand the mechanism for like storing and changing

1112
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: these parameters. We don't understand what would happen if two

1113
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 1: universes with different values of these parameters came into contact somehow.

1114
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 4: And well, there's also the other question of like you're

1115
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 4: sort of assuming that all of these universes that are

1116
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 4: making more universes, you all work with the same laws.

1117
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 4: We just can't explain the parameters of those laws. But

1118
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 4: it assumes one set of laws for all universes in

1119
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:14,280
Speaker 4: this giant savannah.

1120
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 1: Exactly, and we don't understand that structure at all. It's

1121
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,280
Speaker 1: like saying, well, all right, I'm explaining why the control

1122
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 1: panel is set this way, but like, who build the

1123
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 1: control panel? Why do you have this many parameters. Why

1124
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: are there twenty six parameters and not one? Why have

1125
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 1: any parameters at all? Can't you imagine other universes without parameters?

1126
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: So it doesn't answer that deeper question. And that's what

1127
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 1: I find frustrating about a lot of these explanations is

1128
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 1: that they don't go all the way. I want to

1129
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 1: go all the way to explaining the universe down to

1130
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 1: no numbers.

1131
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 4: You mean, a giant savannah full of infinite universes having

1132
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:48,840
Speaker 4: baby black holes. That's not hardcore enough for you, like

1133
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 4: you want to go more extreme than that.

1134
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it's extremely imaginative and it's evocative mentally, but

1135
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: it doesn't really answer questions, you know, because it doesn't

1136
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,320
Speaker 1: let you grasp of those things and and ask deeper questions,

1137
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:03,400
Speaker 1: you know, about like this, like why are there all

1138
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 1: these parameters? You know, it's a limitation of the theory.

1139
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 4: But couldn't you also apply the same idea though, to

1140
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 4: this idea of loss, Like maybe when you make a

1141
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 4: new baby black hole universe, the laws also changed a

1142
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 4: little bit, not just the parameters, and so then you

1143
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:19,280
Speaker 4: also have natural selection of physical laws.

1144
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:20,880
Speaker 1: All right, I'm going to call that the smoll And

1145
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:22,760
Speaker 1: cham theory of the universe.

1146
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:25,800
Speaker 4: Done Noble Prize. Here's my address.

1147
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,320
Speaker 1: You win one black hole, sir, I get.

1148
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 4: A half of a Nobel Prize. I'll share with Slee.

1149
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 4: I've metal Lie Smolan before. I'll be happy to share

1150
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 4: it with him.

1151
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 1: All right. That sounds like a plan.

1152
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:38,359
Speaker 4: All right, Well that's the idea, and there's something also

1153
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 4: about the timing of it that's complicated.

1154
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it's hard to really think about the timing

1155
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 1: because you need to think about like the framework in

1156
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 1: which this happens. Like we're arguing that these universes would

1157
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 1: create more universes with more black holes in them. But

1158
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 1: you know, if you think about how long it takes

1159
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 1: our universe to make black holes, it's like millions or

1160
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 1: billions of years. We do see black holes having formed

1161
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 1: in the early universe, like after a few hundred million

1162
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:06,840
Speaker 1: years or maybe a billion years, but that's kind of

1163
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:10,879
Speaker 1: a long time. Imagine you had other universes that very

1164
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 1: rapidly formed a smaller number of black holes. They would

1165
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 1: then create their babies when they were very very young,

1166
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,439
Speaker 1: and so even if they're not creating as many black

1167
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 1: holes per universe, they're reproducing so quickly that in the end,

1168
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 1: there are more of those universes than ones with more

1169
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 1: black holes in them.

1170
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 4: Just because they had babies sooner than everybody else.

1171
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 1: Yes, but you know that depends on this idea like clocks,

1172
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 1: Like are the clocks in this universe really sync with

1173
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,800
Speaker 1: the clocks in that universe? When did this whole process start?

1174
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: Is there really sort of like a timing for the

1175
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 1: meta universe.

1176
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,760
Speaker 4: It's sort of fuzzy, right, because as we've talked about,

1177
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 4: the time sort of slows down as you approach a

1178
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 4: black hole, right, like when you bend gravity that much,

1179
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:55,319
Speaker 4: time works totally different Or are we saying that time

1180
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 4: works the same inside of the black hole.

1181
00:56:57,920 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: We don't know what's going on inside a black hole, right,

1182
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,720
Speaker 1: And this theory would suggest that time inside that universe,

1183
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 1: that space time is expanding inside that universe instead of

1184
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:09,320
Speaker 1: just being like twisted by the singularity. But this is

1185
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: a question about like whether you have some metaclock that's

1186
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 1: you know, it is counting like how long you've taken

1187
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 1: to create babies, And like the clocks inside the universe

1188
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 1: are sort of somehow connected to this concept of how

1189
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: many universes there are and how long it's taken to

1190
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 1: make those universes.

1191
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 4: I think what you're saying is that evolution is complicated, right,

1192
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 4: It's not just about optimal solutions, Like and in the

1193
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 4: animal world, you know, we're not necessarily the most the

1194
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 4: most perfect animal out there. We're just happen to be

1195
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 4: the best animal that seems to have survived the most, right, Like, Like,

1196
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 4: there's still a question of why we have toes, Like,

1197
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:45,439
Speaker 4: nobody knows why we have toes, but we're there. They're

1198
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 4: there because, you know, something needs to collect lint, I guess,

1199
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 4: or you know. The idea is that we're not necessarily optimized.

1200
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 4: We just got here first.

1201
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're the product of our specific history. And you know,

1202
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 1: and while biologists look to explain toes, physicists look to

1203
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 1: explain theories of everything, which are also toes.

1204
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, there you go. So are we Is this the

1205
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 4: pinky toe of the universe or is this the big toe?

1206
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 1: Oh, it's definitely it's the big toe. It's one megatoe,

1207
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 1: it's the metatoe.

1208
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 4: It's the alpha toe. All right, Well, I think the

1209
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 4: main takeaway here is that we don't know why the

1210
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 4: universe is the way it is, Like, we have really

1211
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 4: no idea, and so we're open to any crazy idea,

1212
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:27,680
Speaker 4: even like giant savannahs full of competing universes.

1213
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 1: We really are at the beginning of our exploration of

1214
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 1: all these crazy ideas, at the point where we really

1215
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 1: should take seriously concept that seem bonkers, that seem at

1216
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 1: first flush like what that's insane, It might actually make

1217
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: sense and it might actually describe our reality.

1218
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think it points to also how much

1219
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 4: there is still to discover about the universe, right, like

1220
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 4: any kids listening or any young aspiring physicists listening to this,

1221
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 4: or any old old physicists like who aspire to make

1222
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 4: a big breakthrough, that you could so focus on these

1223
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 4: big questions and there's still a lot to explain about

1224
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 4: why things are the way they are.

1225
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 1: That's right, And I hope it's the young physicists that

1226
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 1: figure it out. Because I got to go take a nap.

1227
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 4: But why do you have to take a nap, Daniel,

1228
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 4: Why do you have to take a nap now and

1229
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 4: not not the or why you're couch and not in

1230
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 4: your futon.

1231
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 1: It's a fundamental parameter of the universe, the number of

1232
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 1: naps per physicist. I see, it's the big n nobody

1233
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 1: understands it and is it dimensionless or or do you

1234
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 1: sleep forever? Or is there a said amount of time

1235
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 1: that you or units of time that do you sleep? For?

1236
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 1: I sleep in many dimensions.

1237
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:29,680
Speaker 4: All right, well, we hope you enjoyed that and made

1238
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 4: you think about why we are here and why we

1239
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 4: are in this universe, which seems pretty good. But who knows.

1240
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 4: Maybe it's not suboptimal. Maybe we are in the pink

1241
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 4: toe of all the universes.

1242
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 1: Whatever universe it is, I like it.

1243
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,160
Speaker 4: Thanks for joining us, See you next time.

1244
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge explain

1245
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 1: the universe is a production of iHeart Radio. For more

1246
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:02,000
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1247
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:15,600
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1248
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1249
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1250
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