1 00:00:09,664 --> 00:00:13,104 Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is now something you can watch. Just go 2 00:00:13,144 --> 00:00:16,823 Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mission Implausible podcasts or click on 3 00:00:16,864 --> 00:00:21,344 Speaker 1: the link to our channel. In our show notes, I'm John. 4 00:00:21,224 --> 00:00:22,823 Speaker 2: Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. 5 00:00:23,304 --> 00:00:26,584 Speaker 3: We have over sixty years of experience as clandestine officers 6 00:00:26,664 --> 00:00:29,544 Speaker 3: in the CIA, serving in high risk areas all around 7 00:00:29,584 --> 00:00:30,824 Speaker 3: the world, and part. 8 00:00:30,624 --> 00:00:34,504 Speaker 2: Of our job was creating conspiracies to deceive our adversaries. 9 00:00:34,784 --> 00:00:37,504 Speaker 3: Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the 10 00:00:37,543 --> 00:00:40,543 Speaker 3: conspiracy theories everyone's talking about, as well as some you 11 00:00:40,623 --> 00:00:41,224 Speaker 3: may not have heard. 12 00:00:41,344 --> 00:00:43,624 Speaker 2: Could they be true or are we being manipulated? 13 00:00:43,703 --> 00:00:49,184 Speaker 3: We'll find out now on Mission Implausible. Today's guest is 14 00:00:49,224 --> 00:00:51,983 Speaker 3: a longtime friend of the pod, Michael Weiss. Michael's an 15 00:00:52,024 --> 00:00:56,224 Speaker 3: investigative journalist, author, and analyst who has covered Syria, Ukraine, 16 00:00:56,384 --> 00:01:00,024 Speaker 3: Russian espionage and disinformation for years. He's an editor at 17 00:01:00,024 --> 00:01:03,944 Speaker 3: The Insider, a contributing editor at New Lines magazine, and 18 00:01:03,984 --> 00:01:06,744 Speaker 3: a co author of isis Inside the Army of Terror. 19 00:01:06,944 --> 00:01:10,384 Speaker 3: His recent reporting has focused heavily on Russian intelligence operations 20 00:01:10,544 --> 00:01:14,144 Speaker 3: sabotage networks in the kreblins Wider War against Ukraine and 21 00:01:14,224 --> 00:01:16,304 Speaker 3: the West. Today we're going to largely focus on his 22 00:01:16,384 --> 00:01:19,344 Speaker 3: bombshell article on what is often called the Havana Syndrome 23 00:01:19,503 --> 00:01:21,744 Speaker 3: and the articles called the biggest cover up of my 24 00:01:21,824 --> 00:01:25,384 Speaker 3: adult life inside the CIA's attempt to make the Havana 25 00:01:25,464 --> 00:01:28,344 Speaker 3: Syndrome disappear. So, Michael, welcome, Great to have you. 26 00:01:28,703 --> 00:01:29,503 Speaker 4: Yeah, good to be back. 27 00:01:29,544 --> 00:01:31,664 Speaker 2: Guys. Yeah, I don't know if you're taking names, but 28 00:01:31,703 --> 00:01:33,864 Speaker 2: you're kicking ass. It's just some good stuff. 29 00:01:33,904 --> 00:01:34,304 Speaker 1: You're right now. 30 00:01:34,304 --> 00:01:37,264 Speaker 3: I see some names too. I think we'll get into that, 31 00:01:37,304 --> 00:01:39,904 Speaker 3: but first, if you can, Michael, remind our listeners quickly 32 00:01:39,944 --> 00:01:43,183 Speaker 3: about what's been called quote Havana syndrome. We did several 33 00:01:43,184 --> 00:01:45,583 Speaker 3: episodes on the issue in twenty twenty four to include 34 00:01:45,584 --> 00:01:48,344 Speaker 3: with you, and I think our commentary is largely panned 35 00:01:48,384 --> 00:01:50,704 Speaker 3: out to be correct. So can you remind us of 36 00:01:50,984 --> 00:01:53,064 Speaker 3: what this is, how it happened, and how the government's 37 00:01:53,104 --> 00:01:54,144 Speaker 3: reacted in general. 38 00:01:54,184 --> 00:01:57,544 Speaker 4: Yeah, So it's called Havana syndrome because in twenty sixteen, 39 00:01:57,584 --> 00:02:00,904 Speaker 4: twenty seventeen, a bunch of US personnel, some CIA, some 40 00:02:00,984 --> 00:02:04,344 Speaker 4: diplomats in Havana, Cuba, which we had just reopened relations 41 00:02:04,384 --> 00:02:09,544 Speaker 4: with year prior, started reporting some very strange symptoms physiology 42 00:02:09,544 --> 00:02:14,784 Speaker 4: logical cognitive symptoms. They reported feeling like half of their body, 43 00:02:14,824 --> 00:02:17,584 Speaker 4: one side of their head had been attacked by some 44 00:02:17,664 --> 00:02:22,264 Speaker 4: kind of energy beam, in intense pressure, ringing in the ears, 45 00:02:22,664 --> 00:02:25,904 Speaker 4: headaches that lasted for days, or simply just never went away. 46 00:02:26,384 --> 00:02:30,904 Speaker 4: In some cases, people were really severely debilitated. Patient zero, 47 00:02:30,984 --> 00:02:34,064 Speaker 4: who goes by Adam and the Press, who was working 48 00:02:34,104 --> 00:02:37,824 Speaker 4: in Havana Station for your former organization. I mean, this 49 00:02:37,864 --> 00:02:40,104 Speaker 4: is somebody who had to be medically retired from CIA 50 00:02:40,224 --> 00:02:42,824 Speaker 4: because of the symptoms and the lasting damage that was 51 00:02:42,824 --> 00:02:45,624 Speaker 4: done to his body. He's legally blind in one eye, 52 00:02:45,904 --> 00:02:48,144 Speaker 4: has to wear a weighted vest because the vertigo, even 53 00:02:48,224 --> 00:02:50,584 Speaker 4: years later is so severe he'll literally tip over if 54 00:02:50,584 --> 00:02:53,984 Speaker 4: he's not got some kind of stabilizing force. Everybody in 55 00:02:54,024 --> 00:02:56,624 Speaker 4: the cohort of victims, the credible cohort, and we can 56 00:02:56,664 --> 00:02:59,584 Speaker 4: come to why I use that term very carefully in 57 00:02:59,584 --> 00:03:03,064 Speaker 4: the minute. They all have the same kind of medical records, right, 58 00:03:03,104 --> 00:03:06,944 Speaker 4: They've been diagnosed with traumatic brain injuries. In some cases, 59 00:03:07,264 --> 00:03:10,064 Speaker 4: although this is rare and these are the cornerstone of 60 00:03:10,104 --> 00:03:13,264 Speaker 4: cornerstone cases, it's been determined that they have what's known 61 00:03:13,264 --> 00:03:17,384 Speaker 4: as biomarkers, so Biomarkers are two specific proteins that are 62 00:03:17,424 --> 00:03:20,104 Speaker 4: found in the brain that if they wind up in 63 00:03:20,144 --> 00:03:22,784 Speaker 4: your bloodstream or indicative of some kind of traumatic event 64 00:03:22,824 --> 00:03:26,584 Speaker 4: that has happened, stroke or you've I don't know, you've 65 00:03:26,624 --> 00:03:29,864 Speaker 4: got hit with an ied right, something physically really quite 66 00:03:29,904 --> 00:03:32,664 Speaker 4: violent has happened to your body or your head. Rather, 67 00:03:33,024 --> 00:03:36,984 Speaker 4: so biomarkers were an indication that this was not psychosomatic, 68 00:03:37,104 --> 00:03:39,424 Speaker 4: or this wasn't sort of manufactured some kind of you know, 69 00:03:39,744 --> 00:03:43,344 Speaker 4: episode of mass hysteria, that something had actually happened to 70 00:03:43,384 --> 00:03:45,904 Speaker 4: these people. But I would submit to you that Havanah 71 00:03:45,944 --> 00:03:48,824 Speaker 4: syndrome is a real misnomer. Why do I say that. 72 00:03:49,064 --> 00:03:51,744 Speaker 4: In our twenty twenty four investigation at the Insider, which 73 00:03:51,744 --> 00:03:54,624 Speaker 4: we did with sixty minutes, just like the current investigation, 74 00:03:55,264 --> 00:03:58,424 Speaker 4: we found evidence that these attacks had dated back to 75 00:03:58,464 --> 00:04:02,304 Speaker 4: at least twenty fourteen. One case of a CIA officer 76 00:04:02,344 --> 00:04:05,904 Speaker 4: working under diplomatic cover in the Frankfurt Consulate was hit 77 00:04:06,024 --> 00:04:08,664 Speaker 4: so badly she was knocked unconscious in the building of 78 00:04:08,664 --> 00:04:11,584 Speaker 4: the consulate. I believe a stairwell woke up in Frankfurt 79 00:04:11,624 --> 00:04:17,063 Speaker 4: hospital diagnosed with TBI and lingering system symptoms. For the 80 00:04:17,104 --> 00:04:21,784 Speaker 4: next decade, and I'm now more willing to share information 81 00:04:21,944 --> 00:04:24,304 Speaker 4: that two years ago I was more close hold, but 82 00:04:24,743 --> 00:04:29,183 Speaker 4: that officer in CIA as a woman, and one of 83 00:04:29,183 --> 00:04:31,304 Speaker 4: the things we did when we said about our investigation 84 00:04:31,424 --> 00:04:33,864 Speaker 4: and we started to hypothesize based on data we were 85 00:04:33,863 --> 00:04:37,183 Speaker 4: exfiltrating from a Russian intelligence unit known as Unit two 86 00:04:37,303 --> 00:04:40,104 Speaker 4: nine one five five of the gru which I'm sure 87 00:04:40,144 --> 00:04:43,104 Speaker 4: listeners of your show know very well, because these are 88 00:04:43,104 --> 00:04:46,823 Speaker 4: the guys responsible for poisoning the scripples in Salisbury, blowing 89 00:04:46,863 --> 00:04:51,024 Speaker 4: up ammunition and weapons depots in Bulgaria, and check trying 90 00:04:51,063 --> 00:04:54,583 Speaker 4: to do a coup or insurrection in Montenegro, which I 91 00:04:54,584 --> 00:04:57,743 Speaker 4: know John knows very well, and other assorted bits of 92 00:04:58,424 --> 00:05:02,224 Speaker 4: malign activity, including cyber attacks against Ukraine prior to the 93 00:05:02,224 --> 00:05:06,104 Speaker 4: full scale invasion. This CIA officer in Frankfort identified one 94 00:05:06,144 --> 00:05:08,224 Speaker 4: of the top members of two nine one five five 95 00:05:08,984 --> 00:05:13,303 Speaker 4: sculpting around the consulate parking lot just a couple days 96 00:05:13,424 --> 00:05:17,143 Speaker 4: or maybe a week before her attack, clocking diplomatic plates, 97 00:05:17,664 --> 00:05:20,224 Speaker 4: and she memorialized what this guy looked like because she 98 00:05:20,303 --> 00:05:22,183 Speaker 4: had her baby with her, I think it was maybe 99 00:05:22,224 --> 00:05:24,623 Speaker 4: two year old, and so she went into quote mama 100 00:05:24,664 --> 00:05:27,424 Speaker 4: bear mode because she felt threatened, her child's life was 101 00:05:27,464 --> 00:05:31,303 Speaker 4: in danger seeing this kind of hulking, dangerous looking Slavic 102 00:05:31,344 --> 00:05:36,224 Speaker 4: guy chomping around diplomatic and intelligence facility grounds. Ten years 103 00:05:36,303 --> 00:05:38,023 Speaker 4: later we showed her a photograph and she had a 104 00:05:38,063 --> 00:05:38,863 Speaker 4: visceral reaction. 105 00:05:39,024 --> 00:05:40,183 Speaker 5: That's him. He was there. 106 00:05:40,503 --> 00:05:43,904 Speaker 4: So we were able in twenty twenty four to attribute 107 00:05:44,264 --> 00:05:47,984 Speaker 4: or to make a compelling argument attributing these attacks to 108 00:05:48,063 --> 00:05:51,103 Speaker 4: this specific unit of Russian military intelligence. We had another 109 00:05:51,144 --> 00:05:55,823 Speaker 4: positive id into Blisi, Georgia in twenty twenty one, the 110 00:05:55,863 --> 00:05:59,703 Speaker 4: wife of the FBI legat who clocked not just any 111 00:05:59,704 --> 00:06:02,104 Speaker 4: member of two nine one, five to five, but the 112 00:06:02,183 --> 00:06:05,383 Speaker 4: son of the founding commander of the entire unit, guy 113 00:06:05,464 --> 00:06:08,103 Speaker 4: called Albert Avrianov, who stood out like a sore thumb 114 00:06:08,104 --> 00:06:10,904 Speaker 4: in Georgia because he's very tall, he's thin, and he's 115 00:06:10,943 --> 00:06:13,183 Speaker 4: got blonde hair, which most Strigans are not and do 116 00:06:13,264 --> 00:06:16,183 Speaker 4: not have, right and she identified him within hours. I 117 00:06:16,183 --> 00:06:19,424 Speaker 4: think of being struck in her laundry room in the house, 118 00:06:19,743 --> 00:06:21,823 Speaker 4: which had an open window onto the parking lot where 119 00:06:21,823 --> 00:06:24,224 Speaker 4: she had first seen it. So you know, we have 120 00:06:24,264 --> 00:06:27,384 Speaker 4: two positive ideas of two members of a unit of 121 00:06:27,424 --> 00:06:31,143 Speaker 4: Russian military intelligence that to be clear, when these guys 122 00:06:31,144 --> 00:06:34,024 Speaker 4: turn up somewhere, it's not for the purposes of doing 123 00:06:34,104 --> 00:06:36,784 Speaker 4: pure collection, right, They're not spies in the classic sense. 124 00:06:36,943 --> 00:06:39,384 Speaker 4: They do kinetic operations. So if they're in your neck 125 00:06:39,383 --> 00:06:41,224 Speaker 4: of the woods, it's because they're either about to do 126 00:06:41,264 --> 00:06:44,224 Speaker 4: something violent where they have done something violent. So this 127 00:06:44,303 --> 00:06:47,263 Speaker 4: to us was more than compelling circumstantial evidence. This was 128 00:06:47,303 --> 00:06:50,943 Speaker 4: almost smoking gun material. And the thing we had all 129 00:06:50,984 --> 00:06:54,424 Speaker 4: been waiting for, and the thing that your former organization 130 00:06:54,544 --> 00:06:57,944 Speaker 4: said would be the one decisive piece of the puzzle 131 00:06:57,943 --> 00:07:00,544 Speaker 4: that might alter their assessment, was Okay, Well, let's say, 132 00:07:00,584 --> 00:07:02,863 Speaker 4: you know, we can geolocate Russians in various parts of 133 00:07:02,904 --> 00:07:05,584 Speaker 4: the world where these alleged attacks have occurred. Where's the weapon, 134 00:07:05,623 --> 00:07:09,144 Speaker 4: where's the device? The technology simply doesn't exist, the physics 135 00:07:09,144 --> 00:07:11,663 Speaker 4: are impossibl blah blah blah. Well what do we find. 136 00:07:11,904 --> 00:07:14,744 Speaker 4: We find that for the last year in change, the 137 00:07:14,784 --> 00:07:19,064 Speaker 4: Department of Defense has been tinkering, experimenting on a device 138 00:07:19,104 --> 00:07:22,464 Speaker 4: that was acquired by the Department of Homeland Security from 139 00:07:22,464 --> 00:07:26,703 Speaker 4: a quote complex Russian criminal organization, which we're given to 140 00:07:26,704 --> 00:07:30,104 Speaker 4: believe is a euphemism for the other thing, meaning Russian 141 00:07:30,144 --> 00:07:32,624 Speaker 4: intelligence officers doing a bit of side action and selling 142 00:07:32,624 --> 00:07:35,944 Speaker 4: stuff on the black market price tag around twenty million dollars. 143 00:07:36,784 --> 00:07:41,464 Speaker 5: Tonight, we have details of a classified US intelligence mission 144 00:07:41,704 --> 00:07:46,144 Speaker 5: that has obtained a previously unknown weapon that may finally 145 00:07:46,304 --> 00:07:51,664 Speaker 5: unlock a mystery. Since at least twenty sixteen US diplomats, spies, 146 00:07:51,744 --> 00:07:56,864 Speaker 5: and military officers have suffered crippling brain injuries, but the 147 00:07:56,904 --> 00:08:01,944 Speaker 5: government has doubted their stories. They've been called delusional. Well, 148 00:08:01,984 --> 00:08:05,144 Speaker 5: now sixty Minutes has learned that a weapon that can 149 00:08:05,424 --> 00:08:10,784 Speaker 5: inflict these injuries was obtained overseas and secretly tested on 150 00:08:11,024 --> 00:08:13,344 Speaker 5: animals on a US military base. 151 00:08:14,344 --> 00:08:17,584 Speaker 4: The device is concealable, it is man portable, it has 152 00:08:17,664 --> 00:08:21,224 Speaker 4: Russian components. The most significant components that it has is 153 00:08:21,264 --> 00:08:26,143 Speaker 4: the software, not the hardware. It uses pulse microwave energy, 154 00:08:26,744 --> 00:08:29,864 Speaker 4: which is one of the most compelling bits of plausible 155 00:08:29,864 --> 00:08:33,624 Speaker 4: explanations for AHI. According to our own Intelligence Communities expert 156 00:08:33,624 --> 00:08:36,544 Speaker 4: panel on the subject. It doesn't give off a lot 157 00:08:36,544 --> 00:08:40,184 Speaker 4: of noise. In fact, it runs silently, it uses relatively 158 00:08:40,184 --> 00:08:44,343 Speaker 4: little power, it's programmable for distance, intensity of bursts, and 159 00:08:44,384 --> 00:08:47,104 Speaker 4: it's been used in by our own government, by our 160 00:08:47,144 --> 00:08:49,664 Speaker 4: own military. It's sitting in a US military facility somewhere 161 00:08:49,664 --> 00:08:52,064 Speaker 4: in the continent of the United States. It's been tested 162 00:08:52,103 --> 00:08:55,184 Speaker 4: on rats and sheep, and rats and sheep have guessed 163 00:08:55,184 --> 00:08:58,144 Speaker 4: what developed all of the symptoms consistent with AHI the 164 00:08:58,144 --> 00:09:01,664 Speaker 4: physiological effects. So this thing literally cooks the inside of 165 00:09:01,703 --> 00:09:04,863 Speaker 4: your head without having any tissue damage on the outside. 166 00:09:05,264 --> 00:09:07,744 Speaker 4: So people who otherwise you'd think that they had just 167 00:09:07,824 --> 00:09:09,863 Speaker 4: been in a war zone, like I say, have been 168 00:09:09,864 --> 00:09:12,504 Speaker 4: next to an I D blast. They show no outward 169 00:09:12,544 --> 00:09:15,703 Speaker 4: signs of any physical damage, but internally their brain has 170 00:09:15,744 --> 00:09:17,184 Speaker 4: been severely affected by this. 171 00:09:32,904 --> 00:09:35,384 Speaker 3: So what your new reporting seems to show though, too, 172 00:09:35,504 --> 00:09:37,824 Speaker 3: is that there is a unit, an analytic unit in 173 00:09:37,984 --> 00:09:42,144 Speaker 3: CIA that has consistently said, no matter what evidence seems 174 00:09:42,184 --> 00:09:46,264 Speaker 3: to be coming in, that this is happened, but it 175 00:09:46,304 --> 00:09:48,744 Speaker 3: was very unlikely. It's unlikely to foreign foe did it. 176 00:09:49,264 --> 00:09:50,944 Speaker 3: And they've sort of dug their feet in on this. 177 00:09:50,984 --> 00:09:53,944 Speaker 3: And you've turned up a lot of details suggesting that 178 00:09:54,024 --> 00:09:55,944 Speaker 3: might be a difference, like so much so that the 179 00:09:56,024 --> 00:10:00,504 Speaker 3: article even alleges that victims maybe were silenced, discredited, even surveilled. 180 00:10:00,544 --> 00:10:02,463 Speaker 3: So you can tell us about this global. 181 00:10:02,824 --> 00:10:05,104 Speaker 2: I'm not a physicist, I want to say this, but 182 00:10:05,343 --> 00:10:08,583 Speaker 2: when I read in your article, that the people in 183 00:10:08,624 --> 00:10:12,583 Speaker 2: this in this unit, we're saying that this is breaking 184 00:10:12,624 --> 00:10:16,064 Speaker 2: the laws of physics, but then it works. It doesn't 185 00:10:16,103 --> 00:10:18,343 Speaker 2: sound to me like they've studied the laws of physics. 186 00:10:18,664 --> 00:10:21,144 Speaker 4: No, And they were coming up with that determination well 187 00:10:21,184 --> 00:10:25,664 Speaker 4: before enough investigative evidence had been compiled or uncovered to 188 00:10:25,703 --> 00:10:28,584 Speaker 4: suggest that, in fact, the Russians had been experimenting with 189 00:10:28,664 --> 00:10:31,944 Speaker 4: exactly this kind of technology for decades, going back to 190 00:10:32,024 --> 00:10:35,304 Speaker 4: the Cold War period the Soviet era. Doctor David Rellman, 191 00:10:35,304 --> 00:10:37,703 Speaker 4: who was the co chair of the Intelligence Community Expert 192 00:10:37,784 --> 00:10:41,383 Speaker 4: panel that looked into so called plausible explanations for HI. 193 00:10:41,424 --> 00:10:44,904 Speaker 4: You can read this report in redactive form because Mark Zaid, 194 00:10:44,944 --> 00:10:47,904 Speaker 4: who's a lawyer representing a lot of HI victims, foied 195 00:10:47,904 --> 00:10:50,623 Speaker 4: it and it's on the internet, or people can ask 196 00:10:50,664 --> 00:10:52,544 Speaker 4: me after this segment they can read the thing for itself. 197 00:10:52,703 --> 00:10:56,024 Speaker 4: One of the conclusions was pulse microwave radiation could very 198 00:10:56,024 --> 00:10:59,703 Speaker 4: well account for these symptoms. This could be it one 199 00:10:59,703 --> 00:11:03,304 Speaker 4: way of explaining Havana syndrome when there are no underlying conditions, 200 00:11:03,343 --> 00:11:07,784 Speaker 4: or you discount any environmental or atmospheric explanations. But the 201 00:11:07,824 --> 00:11:10,304 Speaker 4: reason I want to get into this story that I did, 202 00:11:10,384 --> 00:11:12,784 Speaker 4: which is really about the CIA more than what the 203 00:11:12,904 --> 00:11:15,664 Speaker 4: Russians are up to. After our first investigation, there was 204 00:11:15,703 --> 00:11:17,824 Speaker 4: a lot of skepticism, a lot of pushback. Ah, this 205 00:11:18,744 --> 00:11:22,304 Speaker 4: is all just circumstantial. You know, Havana syndrome is a hoax. 206 00:11:22,343 --> 00:11:25,463 Speaker 4: It's a sociogenic illness, just an episode of mass hysteria. 207 00:11:26,424 --> 00:11:29,343 Speaker 4: There's no there there. Why are you barking up this tree. 208 00:11:29,583 --> 00:11:32,264 Speaker 4: You sound like you know, tinfoil hatted crazies who think 209 00:11:32,304 --> 00:11:34,743 Speaker 4: that aliens are sitting in Roswell in New Mexico. Blah blah, 210 00:11:34,744 --> 00:11:35,104 Speaker 4: blah blah. 211 00:11:35,103 --> 00:11:35,624 Speaker 2: We heard it all. 212 00:11:35,864 --> 00:11:37,304 Speaker 4: And one thing that I wanted to get to the 213 00:11:37,343 --> 00:11:41,864 Speaker 4: bottom of is how could the foremost intelligence agency in 214 00:11:41,904 --> 00:11:45,944 Speaker 4: the world, the CIA, be so adamant that this thing 215 00:11:46,024 --> 00:11:48,944 Speaker 4: doesn't exist, that they have got no evidence to suggest it, 216 00:11:49,064 --> 00:11:52,584 Speaker 4: especially when so many of their own people are the 217 00:11:52,583 --> 00:11:54,824 Speaker 4: ones who've been affected by it. And when I say 218 00:11:54,864 --> 00:11:56,703 Speaker 4: so many of their own people, I want to be clear. 219 00:11:56,944 --> 00:11:58,704 Speaker 4: You can look at my inbox any day of the 220 00:11:58,703 --> 00:12:00,984 Speaker 4: week and you have people telling me I got zapped 221 00:12:00,984 --> 00:12:04,184 Speaker 4: by Mosad in Chicago, and you know crazy people who 222 00:12:04,304 --> 00:12:08,463 Speaker 4: have you know, just they have a psychosomatic illness. They 223 00:12:08,784 --> 00:12:11,343 Speaker 4: do suffer from mass the cases that we have looked 224 00:12:11,343 --> 00:12:15,304 Speaker 4: at at the Insider are so called cornerstone cases. These 225 00:12:15,343 --> 00:12:19,984 Speaker 4: are people with impeccable credentials, professional backgrounds. I mean John 226 00:12:20,024 --> 00:12:23,743 Speaker 4: Mark Palmeropolis the most outspoken victim. You and I know 227 00:12:23,864 --> 00:12:26,224 Speaker 4: some of his history that we can't talk about publicly. 228 00:12:27,024 --> 00:12:29,463 Speaker 4: This is not a guy who wilts under pressure. 229 00:12:29,624 --> 00:12:29,824 Speaker 6: Right. 230 00:12:29,984 --> 00:12:32,504 Speaker 4: He's been in firefights, He's been in war zones. He 231 00:12:32,544 --> 00:12:34,623 Speaker 4: was in Afghanistan, he was in Irock, he was in Syria. 232 00:12:35,144 --> 00:12:38,184 Speaker 4: You know, he's been in hostile environments. He doesn't manufacture 233 00:12:38,824 --> 00:12:41,064 Speaker 4: illnesses or maladies just for the sake of it, or 234 00:12:41,103 --> 00:12:43,664 Speaker 4: just for fun or to try and cash in on 235 00:12:43,744 --> 00:12:46,704 Speaker 4: disability or something. There are other cases where we can't 236 00:12:46,703 --> 00:12:48,944 Speaker 4: even go into because the people were doing stuff that 237 00:12:49,024 --> 00:12:51,024 Speaker 4: was so highly classified, but they all had one thing 238 00:12:51,024 --> 00:12:53,864 Speaker 4: in common. What they were doing at CIA was working 239 00:12:53,864 --> 00:12:56,944 Speaker 4: to counterman Russian malign activity. And where they got hit. 240 00:12:57,384 --> 00:12:59,184 Speaker 4: At least the cases we looked at, they were not 241 00:12:59,223 --> 00:13:01,944 Speaker 4: on US soil. They were overseas. In Mark's case, he 242 00:13:02,024 --> 00:13:05,664 Speaker 4: was in Moscow on an official mission, not under cover, 243 00:13:05,824 --> 00:13:08,184 Speaker 4: but a liaison with SVR. 244 00:13:08,583 --> 00:13:09,144 Speaker 5: He got hit. 245 00:13:09,703 --> 00:13:11,904 Speaker 4: We had cases in tash Kent, we had cases in 246 00:13:11,984 --> 00:13:14,544 Speaker 4: Vienna I mentioned frankfort I mentioned Tbilisi that was an 247 00:13:14,583 --> 00:13:17,024 Speaker 4: FBI case, or the wife of an FBI agent. So 248 00:13:17,103 --> 00:13:21,824 Speaker 4: it goes across different agencies, Great Hanoi. And so we 249 00:13:21,864 --> 00:13:24,304 Speaker 4: looked at cases where we have medical records. They have 250 00:13:24,384 --> 00:13:27,944 Speaker 4: been diagnosed with traumatic brain injuries, they have undergone years 251 00:13:28,304 --> 00:13:32,343 Speaker 4: of rehabilitative care at Walter Reed and elsewhere, and they 252 00:13:32,384 --> 00:13:35,664 Speaker 4: have suffered so greatly physically that in many cases they've 253 00:13:35,664 --> 00:13:38,304 Speaker 4: been medically retired. They cannot function in a job any longer. 254 00:13:38,904 --> 00:13:40,984 Speaker 4: And we also looked at what else can we place 255 00:13:41,024 --> 00:13:43,824 Speaker 4: in the field at the time. Can we attribute or 256 00:13:43,904 --> 00:13:47,464 Speaker 4: locate Russian intelligence operatives at the place when these guys 257 00:13:47,463 --> 00:13:50,744 Speaker 4: were there? We did it in two cases. Continue to investigate, 258 00:13:50,824 --> 00:13:53,784 Speaker 4: but I wanted to know why was there such resistance, 259 00:13:54,024 --> 00:13:59,344 Speaker 4: such almost dogmatic ideological resistance to the idea that this 260 00:13:59,544 --> 00:14:02,864 Speaker 4: was real as a phenomenon, as a medical condition, but 261 00:14:02,904 --> 00:14:04,904 Speaker 4: also that the Russians were behind it. You know, since 262 00:14:04,904 --> 00:14:07,024 Speaker 4: when has the CIA been shy about pointing the finger 263 00:14:07,024 --> 00:14:09,344 Speaker 4: at Moscow for fucking with Americans? 264 00:14:09,703 --> 00:14:10,024 Speaker 2: Yeah? 265 00:14:10,103 --> 00:14:13,304 Speaker 4: I started to pull on these threads and what I 266 00:14:13,424 --> 00:14:15,463 Speaker 4: learned was, and some of this is going to be 267 00:14:15,504 --> 00:14:19,224 Speaker 4: inside baseball and perhaps not so interesting to your audience, 268 00:14:19,264 --> 00:14:21,744 Speaker 4: but maybe it will be. What I learned is that 269 00:14:21,824 --> 00:14:25,824 Speaker 4: there's been kind of a major seismic shift in CIA 270 00:14:25,904 --> 00:14:30,144 Speaker 4: how it goes about its intelligence gathering and analysis. Since 271 00:14:30,784 --> 00:14:34,744 Speaker 4: John Brennan was director. He instituted a program called Modernization, 272 00:14:35,144 --> 00:14:37,304 Speaker 4: which I think the McKinsey people came up with that 273 00:14:37,344 --> 00:14:40,224 Speaker 4: as a QUTC term for basically just restructuring the entirety 274 00:14:40,304 --> 00:14:43,104 Speaker 4: of the agency such that it used to be. There 275 00:14:43,104 --> 00:14:47,504 Speaker 4: were two main directorates doing their work. The Director of Analysis, which, 276 00:14:47,944 --> 00:14:51,304 Speaker 4: as it sounds, they were the analysts Directorate of Operations. 277 00:14:51,344 --> 00:14:53,424 Speaker 4: These were the guys in the field. You two were 278 00:14:53,424 --> 00:14:57,384 Speaker 4: both ops people, right case, officers working under diplomatic cover 279 00:14:57,824 --> 00:15:01,024 Speaker 4: out of stations attached to embassies all over the world. 280 00:15:01,104 --> 00:15:03,344 Speaker 4: Right These are the guys who sit across from the Russians, 281 00:15:03,384 --> 00:15:07,304 Speaker 4: try to cultivate and recruit assets and agents. They get 282 00:15:07,304 --> 00:15:10,024 Speaker 4: involved in kinetic operations. I mean, they get their hands dirty. 283 00:15:10,344 --> 00:15:14,064 Speaker 4: They're field officers. And as you can expect, these are 284 00:15:14,104 --> 00:15:18,264 Speaker 4: like two rival priesthoods, if not denominations of the same religion. 285 00:15:18,344 --> 00:15:22,504 Speaker 4: There's a lot of competitiveness and rivalry. They're very siloed 286 00:15:22,664 --> 00:15:24,904 Speaker 4: or compartmentalized into their own feasts, they go about their 287 00:15:24,904 --> 00:15:28,464 Speaker 4: business in different ways. For the analysts, show me the documentation. 288 00:15:28,904 --> 00:15:32,424 Speaker 4: If I don't have Russians in signals intercepts saying we've 289 00:15:32,424 --> 00:15:36,504 Speaker 4: been zapping Americans abroad, here's how, here's the device, here's 290 00:15:36,504 --> 00:15:39,704 Speaker 4: a photo of it, here's the physics, the textbook attached 291 00:15:39,744 --> 00:15:41,104 Speaker 4: to it. If they don't have that kind of level 292 00:15:41,144 --> 00:15:44,264 Speaker 4: of that evidentiary support, they don't believe it exists. Whereas 293 00:15:44,264 --> 00:15:47,064 Speaker 4: the ops people are like, yeah, bullshit, this is exactly 294 00:15:47,104 --> 00:15:49,383 Speaker 4: what the Russians do. They have the will, they have 295 00:15:49,504 --> 00:15:51,904 Speaker 4: the capability. We know they've been researching this for a 296 00:15:51,904 --> 00:15:54,464 Speaker 4: long time. We know the physics exists because we've talked 297 00:15:54,464 --> 00:15:56,904 Speaker 4: to Russians that we've recruited who've told us this, and 298 00:15:56,944 --> 00:15:59,184 Speaker 4: so on and so forth. So under Brennan and modernization, 299 00:15:59,664 --> 00:16:04,024 Speaker 4: these two fiefdoms got blended. So divisions became mission centers. 300 00:16:04,104 --> 00:16:05,744 Speaker 4: And I think the paradigm for this, or one of 301 00:16:05,744 --> 00:16:09,744 Speaker 4: the paradigms, was the counterintelligence mission center, which among other things, 302 00:16:09,784 --> 00:16:12,384 Speaker 4: was responsible for capturing bin Laden or locating Bin Laden 303 00:16:12,424 --> 00:16:15,664 Speaker 4: so he could be killed. And the problem was operations. 304 00:16:15,664 --> 00:16:19,704 Speaker 4: People have felt increasingly since modernization was instituted. It's going 305 00:16:19,744 --> 00:16:21,984 Speaker 4: back like what a decade and a half now that 306 00:16:22,024 --> 00:16:25,664 Speaker 4: their fiefdom has been encroached upon by the analysts. So 307 00:16:25,664 --> 00:16:28,584 Speaker 4: the analysts are now in a position to be senior 308 00:16:28,664 --> 00:16:30,824 Speaker 4: leaders in these mission centers. Whereas it used to be 309 00:16:30,904 --> 00:16:34,744 Speaker 4: run by ops people. Analysts can be chiefs of station abroad, 310 00:16:34,864 --> 00:16:37,984 Speaker 4: so basically doing the work of operations people, even though 311 00:16:37,984 --> 00:16:40,704 Speaker 4: they have no training or background to do it right. 312 00:16:40,704 --> 00:16:42,704 Speaker 4: They didn't go to the farm, which you guys can 313 00:16:42,744 --> 00:16:45,184 Speaker 4: speak more to what's involved in that than I'm. 314 00:16:45,264 --> 00:16:49,184 Speaker 2: Like if you drop an anvil on somebody's head and 315 00:16:49,224 --> 00:16:52,104 Speaker 2: then you know, you go to the hospital and you say, hey, 316 00:16:52,664 --> 00:16:55,184 Speaker 2: you've got a brain injury. I need a brain surgeon, 317 00:16:55,224 --> 00:16:57,064 Speaker 2: and the hospital says, no, we're going to bring a 318 00:16:57,104 --> 00:17:01,744 Speaker 2: proctologist in because a proctologist is also a doctor, and 319 00:17:01,784 --> 00:17:05,184 Speaker 2: a practologist is really smart. But yet but they're not 320 00:17:05,344 --> 00:17:07,344 Speaker 2: trained for that. And so for a lot of the 321 00:17:07,384 --> 00:17:11,343 Speaker 2: analytical folks, they're really smart, they're really good folks, but 322 00:17:11,384 --> 00:17:13,944 Speaker 2: they're not They have no experience, and yet now they 323 00:17:13,944 --> 00:17:18,344 Speaker 2: are running operations that they really have no experience in 324 00:17:18,424 --> 00:17:19,224 Speaker 2: and work trained for. 325 00:17:19,464 --> 00:17:21,984 Speaker 4: And the line that I was given by different sources, 326 00:17:22,344 --> 00:17:25,664 Speaker 4: both from operations, and I was playing Devil's advocate in 327 00:17:25,704 --> 00:17:27,904 Speaker 4: the story. We have people on deep background from the 328 00:17:27,984 --> 00:17:30,104 Speaker 4: DA the Rectorate of Analysis in the story. They didn't 329 00:17:30,104 --> 00:17:32,184 Speaker 4: want to go on the record, but they talked to me. 330 00:17:32,864 --> 00:17:35,064 Speaker 4: Analysts got a little too big for their bridges. You know. 331 00:17:35,224 --> 00:17:39,304 Speaker 4: Their job initially was to make assessments that would inform 332 00:17:40,024 --> 00:17:44,144 Speaker 4: policy and guide policy makers. It got to a point, 333 00:17:44,184 --> 00:17:47,984 Speaker 4: and this is just the case in any organization or bureaucracy, 334 00:17:48,504 --> 00:17:51,704 Speaker 4: where people begin to understand the power that they wield, 335 00:17:51,784 --> 00:17:54,704 Speaker 4: and so instead of coming up with assessments to inform policy, 336 00:17:55,224 --> 00:17:58,464 Speaker 4: they decided to craft policy by being a little too 337 00:17:58,544 --> 00:18:01,264 Speaker 4: editorial or you know, in the case of the guy 338 00:18:01,304 --> 00:18:03,504 Speaker 4: who was I'll come to the g HIC in a minute, 339 00:18:03,504 --> 00:18:05,064 Speaker 4: but the guy who was assigned to head the g 340 00:18:05,224 --> 00:18:08,824 Speaker 4: HICK who came from not only the counter Terrorism Mission Center, 341 00:18:08,864 --> 00:18:12,144 Speaker 4: but they've been la targeting unit, and that was his 342 00:18:12,184 --> 00:18:16,544 Speaker 4: claim to fame. He was legendary for basically coming up 343 00:18:16,584 --> 00:18:20,344 Speaker 4: with an editorial kind of analytic piece, sending it down 344 00:18:20,384 --> 00:18:22,144 Speaker 4: the line, down the chain of command and saying, hey, 345 00:18:22,144 --> 00:18:24,384 Speaker 4: can you guys look into this? And so basically the 346 00:18:24,424 --> 00:18:27,144 Speaker 4: implicit instruction was, this is the kind of viewpoint that 347 00:18:27,184 --> 00:18:28,864 Speaker 4: I have, and I want you to ratify it. Send 348 00:18:28,864 --> 00:18:30,984 Speaker 4: it back up to me thumbs up, right, so that 349 00:18:30,984 --> 00:18:33,264 Speaker 4: I can send it out so that hopefully it winds 350 00:18:33,344 --> 00:18:35,664 Speaker 4: up in the president's daily breathing, which is the crown 351 00:18:35,744 --> 00:18:38,144 Speaker 4: jewels of the intelligence community, because that's literally what the 352 00:18:38,144 --> 00:18:41,024 Speaker 4: president sees as you know, the national security priorities of 353 00:18:41,024 --> 00:18:44,784 Speaker 4: the day. So you know, analysts were kind of ruling 354 00:18:44,824 --> 00:18:47,904 Speaker 4: the roost here. And so Bill Burns comes in as 355 00:18:47,984 --> 00:18:51,584 Speaker 4: CIA director in twenty twenty one postmodernization. He makes a 356 00:18:51,624 --> 00:18:53,184 Speaker 4: big hue and cry, we have to get to the 357 00:18:53,224 --> 00:18:56,624 Speaker 4: bottom of Anna syndrome. I believe the victims. I suspect 358 00:18:56,624 --> 00:18:58,544 Speaker 4: the Russians are doing it. The first thing he does 359 00:18:58,624 --> 00:19:00,904 Speaker 4: after he's confirmed is he assembles what's known as the 360 00:19:00,944 --> 00:19:03,784 Speaker 4: Global Health Incidents SELL. This was the task force, the 361 00:19:03,784 --> 00:19:07,464 Speaker 4: investigative unit looking into AHI. The people who are at 362 00:19:07,464 --> 00:19:10,144 Speaker 4: the top, who are the senior leadership of the g HICK, 363 00:19:10,584 --> 00:19:13,904 Speaker 4: are all from the Directorate of Analysis, right, I call 364 00:19:13,944 --> 00:19:16,984 Speaker 4: it the troika. One guy is the bin Laden Targeter. 365 00:19:17,304 --> 00:19:22,064 Speaker 4: His deputy is marre Kaplan who is also DA. And 366 00:19:22,064 --> 00:19:23,904 Speaker 4: then the third person in the troika is a guy 367 00:19:23,944 --> 00:19:26,904 Speaker 4: called Dan Miller, And from what we were told from 368 00:19:27,024 --> 00:19:29,504 Speaker 4: a whistleblower within the g HICK, who for the first 369 00:19:29,504 --> 00:19:32,744 Speaker 4: time has stepped into the light, went on camera with 370 00:19:32,824 --> 00:19:36,504 Speaker 4: sixty minutes and gave me his own interview. He said 371 00:19:37,104 --> 00:19:40,024 Speaker 4: the entire remit of the g HICK was basically to 372 00:19:40,104 --> 00:19:44,944 Speaker 4: confirm the predetermined conclusion that a Havana syndrome isn't real 373 00:19:45,024 --> 00:19:47,384 Speaker 4: and b the Russians ain't doing it. The phrase that 374 00:19:47,504 --> 00:19:50,144 Speaker 4: was used throughout the unit was there is no there there, 375 00:19:50,504 --> 00:19:53,664 Speaker 4: what are we doing here? And as evidence to show 376 00:19:53,704 --> 00:19:56,304 Speaker 4: that the analysts are parking their tanks on the lawn 377 00:19:56,384 --> 00:19:59,424 Speaker 4: of the operations people. The guy who was the head 378 00:19:59,464 --> 00:20:02,224 Speaker 4: of operations in the g HICK wasn't even full time. 379 00:20:02,584 --> 00:20:05,504 Speaker 4: He worked part time because he runs a side business 380 00:20:05,504 --> 00:20:08,064 Speaker 4: selling first aid kits online. I couldn't believe this when 381 00:20:08,064 --> 00:20:09,704 Speaker 4: I heard it, but I heard it from multiple. 382 00:20:09,384 --> 00:20:10,704 Speaker 3: P We hope he makes good money to it. 383 00:20:10,744 --> 00:20:13,024 Speaker 4: I hope he makes good money too. Added to which 384 00:20:13,264 --> 00:20:16,584 Speaker 4: operations people working out of missions, they do their own 385 00:20:16,584 --> 00:20:19,824 Speaker 4: collection right, and it used to be that the final product, 386 00:20:19,904 --> 00:20:21,464 Speaker 4: I mean you could speak to the sort of the 387 00:20:21,504 --> 00:20:24,144 Speaker 4: granular aspects of this better than I can. But the 388 00:20:24,144 --> 00:20:27,264 Speaker 4: final products that get sent back to headquarters, that's their 389 00:20:27,304 --> 00:20:30,664 Speaker 4: purview exclusively. Under modernization, it's not their perview because the 390 00:20:30,664 --> 00:20:33,064 Speaker 4: analysts get a say and what that product looks like 391 00:20:33,144 --> 00:20:36,424 Speaker 4: before it's digested at Langley. The analysts are now telling 392 00:20:36,704 --> 00:20:40,424 Speaker 4: operations people stop collecting on AHI. We don't want to 393 00:20:40,464 --> 00:20:43,304 Speaker 4: hear it. All this stuff coming in, it's all bullshit, 394 00:20:43,744 --> 00:20:45,704 Speaker 4: you know, we don't believe it. We can just Mark 395 00:20:45,744 --> 00:20:48,704 Speaker 4: Kaplan said to multiple people familiar with the g HIC, 396 00:20:49,184 --> 00:20:52,384 Speaker 4: our job is to disprove everything that comes into this office. Now, 397 00:20:52,424 --> 00:20:56,544 Speaker 4: if you ask any forensic investigator of anything a crime, 398 00:20:57,864 --> 00:21:01,344 Speaker 4: you know, some bit of stray accountancy. Is your job 399 00:21:01,424 --> 00:21:03,944 Speaker 4: to disprove everything that comes across your desk or into 400 00:21:03,984 --> 00:21:06,144 Speaker 4: your office, they would say, no, that's the opposite of 401 00:21:06,184 --> 00:21:09,184 Speaker 4: what we're supposed to do. That's ask backward methodology. Such 402 00:21:09,264 --> 00:21:13,104 Speaker 4: was the and John Thorne the name we're giving to 403 00:21:13,104 --> 00:21:15,224 Speaker 4: our whistle, and you guys can have your fun with 404 00:21:15,424 --> 00:21:17,064 Speaker 4: why he came up with that name. In a minute, 405 00:21:17,184 --> 00:21:19,864 Speaker 4: he told us that it took four months for the 406 00:21:19,864 --> 00:21:22,263 Speaker 4: g HICK to determine there is no such thing as 407 00:21:22,304 --> 00:21:24,704 Speaker 4: of Anna syndrome, whereas it took CIA ten years to 408 00:21:24,744 --> 00:21:27,464 Speaker 4: find Osama bin Laden right four months, they were like, no, 409 00:21:27,544 --> 00:21:30,384 Speaker 4: they're there. Also, the day to day work he was doing. 410 00:21:30,504 --> 00:21:32,504 Speaker 4: He said he'd show up an eight hour work day 411 00:21:32,904 --> 00:21:34,784 Speaker 4: and he'd really only had a half hour of actual 412 00:21:34,904 --> 00:21:36,784 Speaker 4: labor the rest of the day. I mean, it was 413 00:21:36,824 --> 00:21:38,664 Speaker 4: a sinecure. There was nothing to be done because he 414 00:21:38,704 --> 00:21:40,904 Speaker 4: was told don't do anything. He also said, and this 415 00:21:40,944 --> 00:21:45,304 Speaker 4: is where things started to grade from incompetence or kind 416 00:21:45,304 --> 00:21:50,664 Speaker 4: of wilful blindness into outright contemptuousness of some CIA officials 417 00:21:50,744 --> 00:21:53,704 Speaker 4: toward their colleagues. He said that at one point his 418 00:21:53,744 --> 00:21:56,984 Speaker 4: direct report in his unit, or his little silo of 419 00:21:57,064 --> 00:22:00,024 Speaker 4: the g Hick said, oh, you know, after work today, 420 00:22:00,024 --> 00:22:01,864 Speaker 4: we're all going to have a happy hour at the bar, 421 00:22:02,544 --> 00:22:04,904 Speaker 4: and we're going to turn up like victims of Havana syndrome. 422 00:22:05,224 --> 00:22:07,424 Speaker 4: And this person, a woman, she started to act like 423 00:22:07,464 --> 00:22:09,864 Speaker 4: she was electrocuted or suffering a stroke. So it's like, 424 00:22:09,864 --> 00:22:13,104 Speaker 4: wait a minute. So you start out trying to dispassionately 425 00:22:13,304 --> 00:22:16,424 Speaker 4: or so you say, dispassionately objectively determined. Is this real? 426 00:22:16,584 --> 00:22:20,184 Speaker 4: Are people being attacked by a hostile for an adversary, 427 00:22:20,224 --> 00:22:22,984 Speaker 4: and not only do you determine they're not, but now 428 00:22:22,984 --> 00:22:38,424 Speaker 4: you're making fun of them. Something is all Michael I read. 429 00:22:38,784 --> 00:22:41,424 Speaker 2: It's a really great article. I really encourage people to 430 00:22:41,744 --> 00:22:44,784 Speaker 2: read it. It's long, it's detailed, and it is damning. 431 00:22:45,184 --> 00:22:47,664 Speaker 2: And I have to say, this is a proud CIA office. 432 00:22:47,744 --> 00:22:51,144 Speaker 2: I very much support the agency, it's future, and I 433 00:22:51,184 --> 00:22:54,184 Speaker 2: feel very proud to have served. Nonetheless, you got to 434 00:22:54,224 --> 00:22:56,184 Speaker 2: call balls and strikes right, and it's one of you 435 00:22:56,184 --> 00:22:58,504 Speaker 2: got to speak truth to power. Here's what I didn't 436 00:22:58,544 --> 00:23:00,744 Speaker 2: understand from your article, and maybe it his comes to 437 00:23:00,784 --> 00:23:04,384 Speaker 2: my own prejudice. So twenty sixteen to twenty twenty, my 438 00:23:04,624 --> 00:23:09,024 Speaker 2: understanding was the agency was under pressure from the White 439 00:23:09,064 --> 00:23:12,704 Speaker 2: House not to make Russia look bad. Right, we didn't 440 00:23:12,744 --> 00:23:15,624 Speaker 2: want to confront the Russians. Taught forever on why that 441 00:23:15,704 --> 00:23:18,064 Speaker 2: might be right. But that's no secret that Trump didn't 442 00:23:18,064 --> 00:23:22,464 Speaker 2: want to. But once Biden came in in twenty twenty, 443 00:23:22,544 --> 00:23:25,704 Speaker 2: it wasn't clear to me whether there was whether this 444 00:23:25,904 --> 00:23:28,784 Speaker 2: was just this, did Ji Hick doing this, or whether 445 00:23:28,944 --> 00:23:32,384 Speaker 2: they felt from Burns or the White House that we 446 00:23:32,504 --> 00:23:36,104 Speaker 2: don't want to confront Russia unless we have Because this 447 00:23:36,184 --> 00:23:38,864 Speaker 2: is a cut causes belly potentially this is a this 448 00:23:38,944 --> 00:23:41,704 Speaker 2: is a declaration, But you didn't say that in the article. 449 00:23:41,824 --> 00:23:46,304 Speaker 2: So I was wondering. In the switch of switch of administrations, 450 00:23:46,664 --> 00:23:49,864 Speaker 2: the gi Hick didn't seem to like change its direction. 451 00:23:50,104 --> 00:23:51,664 Speaker 2: So what's your sense of that? 452 00:23:52,144 --> 00:23:54,584 Speaker 4: No, I think look, prior to the full scale invasion 453 00:23:54,584 --> 00:23:57,584 Speaker 4: of Ukraine. You know, Biden came in, he campaigned on 454 00:23:58,304 --> 00:24:01,144 Speaker 4: Russia's killing our soldiers in Afghanistan through the so called 455 00:24:01,144 --> 00:24:03,384 Speaker 4: bounties program, and you know they made a big hue 456 00:24:03,424 --> 00:24:05,704 Speaker 4: and cry about how awful the Russians were. But I mean, 457 00:24:05,744 --> 00:24:09,144 Speaker 4: you know this, Every administration comes in with a mind 458 00:24:09,184 --> 00:24:11,584 Speaker 4: toward some kind of They may not call it a reset, 459 00:24:11,584 --> 00:24:13,104 Speaker 4: but they want to in the words of I think 460 00:24:13,184 --> 00:24:17,464 Speaker 4: Jake Sullivan have normal and predictable relations with Moscow right 461 00:24:17,544 --> 00:24:20,544 Speaker 4: right before the full scale invasion of Ukraine. I think 462 00:24:20,584 --> 00:24:24,424 Speaker 4: the prevailing assumption was, let's lower the temperature with the Russians. 463 00:24:24,544 --> 00:24:26,304 Speaker 4: Let's see if we can make some progress. We don't 464 00:24:26,304 --> 00:24:28,184 Speaker 4: have to love them, but we can deal with them transactionally. 465 00:24:28,264 --> 00:24:30,384 Speaker 4: It's kind of a return to the Obama era, right 466 00:24:30,384 --> 00:24:33,184 Speaker 4: because all the Obama people, including Jake Sullivan, came into 467 00:24:33,184 --> 00:24:37,424 Speaker 4: the Biden administration. I think that the understanding was the 468 00:24:37,464 --> 00:24:40,344 Speaker 4: policy should be see no evil here, no evil. We 469 00:24:40,384 --> 00:24:42,744 Speaker 4: want to kind of reset the chessboard a little bit. 470 00:24:42,904 --> 00:24:45,384 Speaker 4: The full scale invasion changed that. And you know, one 471 00:24:45,424 --> 00:24:46,904 Speaker 4: of the ironies of this, and you're right, I should 472 00:24:46,904 --> 00:24:48,504 Speaker 4: have put a section of this in my piece, but 473 00:24:48,504 --> 00:24:50,824 Speaker 4: the piece was already too long, and I had already 474 00:24:50,904 --> 00:24:53,624 Speaker 4: kind of covered this terran in the previous investigation. One 475 00:24:53,624 --> 00:24:55,904 Speaker 4: of the ironies of this whole saga is since the 476 00:24:55,904 --> 00:25:00,184 Speaker 4: full scale invasion, what CIA has been doing operations, not analysts, 477 00:25:00,224 --> 00:25:03,864 Speaker 4: what they've been doing with the Ukrainians, including providing targeting 478 00:25:03,904 --> 00:25:08,184 Speaker 4: packages of Russian positions inside occupied Ukraine but also inside 479 00:25:08,224 --> 00:25:12,104 Speaker 4: Russian Federation territory, to say nothing of authorizing, you know, 480 00:25:12,144 --> 00:25:14,424 Speaker 4: weapon strikes and the rest of it. The American government 481 00:25:14,424 --> 00:25:16,624 Speaker 4: has killed tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands 482 00:25:16,664 --> 00:25:19,504 Speaker 4: Russian soldiers, right. We have got our retaliation in for 483 00:25:19,584 --> 00:25:24,024 Speaker 4: Havana and then some. So the question is why this subterfuge, 484 00:25:24,064 --> 00:25:26,744 Speaker 4: Why all of this intrigue and this conspiracy of silence? 485 00:25:27,224 --> 00:25:30,264 Speaker 4: My hypothesis, and again I don't want to write something 486 00:25:30,264 --> 00:25:32,144 Speaker 4: that I can't prove. I can ask the question. But 487 00:25:32,464 --> 00:25:37,064 Speaker 4: my hypothesis is a lot of people owned the idea 488 00:25:37,104 --> 00:25:41,264 Speaker 4: that AHI anomalous health incidents was what havana is technically called, 489 00:25:41,504 --> 00:25:44,744 Speaker 4: is not real. And also Russians ain't doing it. And 490 00:25:45,024 --> 00:25:48,144 Speaker 4: when you deal with any organization, least of all one 491 00:25:48,224 --> 00:25:51,384 Speaker 4: is sprawling and complicated as CIA, you are going to 492 00:25:51,424 --> 00:25:53,424 Speaker 4: deal with egos, You're going to deal with, you know, 493 00:25:53,464 --> 00:25:56,104 Speaker 4: psychological imperatives, You're going to deal with people who have 494 00:25:56,184 --> 00:26:00,304 Speaker 4: cut their teeth, made their careers, been advanced professionally because 495 00:26:00,304 --> 00:26:02,904 Speaker 4: of previous analytic judgment. Whether or not they turn out 496 00:26:02,944 --> 00:26:04,984 Speaker 4: to be true or false is irrelevant. Their career is 497 00:26:05,304 --> 00:26:08,704 Speaker 4: predicated on them. They cannot admit that they were fucking wrong. 498 00:26:08,824 --> 00:26:12,144 Speaker 4: They would rather persist in a lie or do everything 499 00:26:12,144 --> 00:26:16,184 Speaker 4: they can to manipulate the data to allow the assumption 500 00:26:16,304 --> 00:26:18,544 Speaker 4: or the conclusion drawn at the public level that this 501 00:26:18,624 --> 00:26:22,504 Speaker 4: is a hoax and then say, actually, we've changed our tune. 502 00:26:22,864 --> 00:26:25,464 Speaker 4: And in the last year alone, I mentioned the device 503 00:26:25,504 --> 00:26:29,264 Speaker 4: has been acquired, I could have mentioned a Norwegian scientist 504 00:26:29,304 --> 00:26:32,984 Speaker 4: who didn't believe in AHI, built a device himself, zapped 505 00:26:33,024 --> 00:26:35,664 Speaker 4: himself with it and guess what came down with all 506 00:26:35,744 --> 00:26:37,824 Speaker 4: the same symptoms of Vana syndrome victims. 507 00:26:37,864 --> 00:26:40,904 Speaker 3: Right, I would advise people not to do that. Just yeah. 508 00:26:41,184 --> 00:26:44,424 Speaker 4: And also you know NSA and the US Army Intelligence 509 00:26:44,584 --> 00:26:47,824 Speaker 4: Unit changed their assessment in the last year and change. 510 00:26:48,144 --> 00:26:50,424 Speaker 4: So now it's fifty to fifty whether or not the 511 00:26:50,464 --> 00:26:53,544 Speaker 4: technology exists. And it's fifty to fifty says another agency, 512 00:26:54,064 --> 00:26:56,944 Speaker 4: whether a hostile adversary has used it or not. So 513 00:26:57,064 --> 00:26:59,544 Speaker 4: things are beginning to change. But you still and here's 514 00:26:59,584 --> 00:27:01,944 Speaker 4: the other thing, right, And I just said this on 515 00:27:02,184 --> 00:27:05,304 Speaker 4: a previous podcast. Let's assume for the sake of argument, 516 00:27:05,584 --> 00:27:07,984 Speaker 4: I'm wrong and this is all a hoax. The Russians 517 00:27:07,984 --> 00:27:10,704 Speaker 4: haven't done it. It's all nothing to see here. Why 518 00:27:10,744 --> 00:27:16,184 Speaker 4: has there been such extraordinary amounts of energy exerted by 519 00:27:16,504 --> 00:27:21,264 Speaker 4: CIA senior leadership, but also by White House, by the 520 00:27:21,304 --> 00:27:26,464 Speaker 4: Pentagon to keep these internal investigations from seeing the light 521 00:27:26,504 --> 00:27:29,023 Speaker 4: of day. So, as we speak, the ODE and I, 522 00:27:29,784 --> 00:27:33,424 Speaker 4: which is led by somebody who shall we say, has 523 00:27:33,464 --> 00:27:36,224 Speaker 4: a very warm relationship with the Russian government, or at 524 00:27:36,304 --> 00:27:39,664 Speaker 4: least professes to believe all the bullshit and propaganda that 525 00:27:39,704 --> 00:27:42,344 Speaker 4: they're selling. The ODE and I is sitting on a 526 00:27:42,384 --> 00:27:46,704 Speaker 4: classified report showing that the intelligence community's investigation into HI 527 00:27:47,304 --> 00:27:49,984 Speaker 4: was lacking an analytic rigor to put it mildly, if 528 00:27:50,024 --> 00:27:52,664 Speaker 4: not grossly, incompetent, to put it at its utmost right, 529 00:27:52,944 --> 00:27:55,944 Speaker 4: Why hasn't that been released when the Odie and I 530 00:27:56,184 --> 00:28:00,464 Speaker 4: and Director Ratcliffe of the CIA had no problem releasing 531 00:28:00,544 --> 00:28:04,664 Speaker 4: stuff regarding Russia's election interference in twenty sixteen just to 532 00:28:04,784 --> 00:28:06,984 Speaker 4: tickle the funny bone of Donald Trump and show that 533 00:28:07,224 --> 00:28:11,024 Speaker 4: it was a deep state conspiracy to deny him the presidency. 534 00:28:11,104 --> 00:28:15,864 Speaker 4: This has been politicized, right, So like if disinfection, I'm sorry, 535 00:28:15,904 --> 00:28:19,424 Speaker 4: if sunlight is the best form of disinfectant. Just put 536 00:28:19,424 --> 00:28:22,104 Speaker 4: out everything that you know, debunk what we've done. I 537 00:28:22,144 --> 00:28:24,504 Speaker 4: talked to somebody, a very senior person from the DA 538 00:28:24,744 --> 00:28:27,624 Speaker 4: who was defending the analysts, and I said, I've not 539 00:28:27,744 --> 00:28:30,504 Speaker 4: heard and I know that there were attempts by intelligence 540 00:28:30,944 --> 00:28:33,944 Speaker 4: officials to try and sprinkle cold water on the Insider's 541 00:28:33,944 --> 00:28:36,984 Speaker 4: previous investigation implicating two nine one five five, But I've 542 00:28:36,984 --> 00:28:40,104 Speaker 4: not heard any credible evidence that our investigation was debunked. 543 00:28:40,424 --> 00:28:42,784 Speaker 4: This person, again, very high up in the DA, at 544 00:28:42,824 --> 00:28:45,144 Speaker 4: one point said no, it hasn't been debunked. So you're 545 00:28:45,144 --> 00:28:47,304 Speaker 4: saying the evidence is there and In fact, I know 546 00:28:47,384 --> 00:28:49,504 Speaker 4: for a fact, and it's in my story that Albert 547 00:28:49,504 --> 00:28:51,784 Speaker 4: Averyanov being Intoblisi when we said he was. That was 548 00:28:51,904 --> 00:28:55,024 Speaker 4: ratified by Tiblisi station after we published. When it was 549 00:28:55,064 --> 00:28:57,144 Speaker 4: sent back to the g HIC, Dan Miller at the 550 00:28:57,184 --> 00:29:00,624 Speaker 4: Jihicks said, well, so what, it doesn't matter circumstantial except 551 00:29:00,624 --> 00:29:03,064 Speaker 4: it's not circumstantial when two nine one five five shows up. 552 00:29:03,064 --> 00:29:05,144 Speaker 4: As I said before, it's for the purposes of doing 553 00:29:05,184 --> 00:29:06,104 Speaker 4: a kinetic operation. 554 00:29:06,384 --> 00:29:08,304 Speaker 3: We are probably getting little bit inside baseball, which is 555 00:29:08,584 --> 00:29:11,384 Speaker 3: just good because that's the details matter in a case 556 00:29:11,464 --> 00:29:13,264 Speaker 3: like this. If you're going to make a case, let 557 00:29:13,264 --> 00:29:15,304 Speaker 3: me ask you one that really has to do with 558 00:29:15,424 --> 00:29:19,184 Speaker 3: as a practitioner, right who lived overseas. I buy what 559 00:29:19,224 --> 00:29:22,104 Speaker 3: you're selling. I buy what Mark says. And we've talked 560 00:29:22,104 --> 00:29:24,224 Speaker 3: about this in our previous podcast with you and others. 561 00:29:24,664 --> 00:29:27,064 Speaker 3: I think it's true. You've worked with sixty minutes, You've 562 00:29:27,064 --> 00:29:31,344 Speaker 3: done a variety of these investigations, very very very well 563 00:29:31,504 --> 00:29:35,264 Speaker 3: carried out, very well documented. I found the reports convincing 564 00:29:35,304 --> 00:29:38,264 Speaker 3: that there's been a tax in places like Havana, Hanoi, Belgrade, 565 00:29:38,344 --> 00:29:40,784 Speaker 3: Vienna that we talked about. The one that makes it 566 00:29:40,824 --> 00:29:43,624 Speaker 3: hard for me and sixty minutes led with it. This 567 00:29:43,744 --> 00:29:46,824 Speaker 3: last time is people claiming they worked in the White 568 00:29:46,904 --> 00:29:49,624 Speaker 3: House and were hit by one of these things. So 569 00:29:49,744 --> 00:29:52,864 Speaker 3: as a practitioner, I can see the Russians having freedom 570 00:29:52,904 --> 00:29:55,864 Speaker 3: of movement in places around the world like the ones 571 00:29:55,904 --> 00:29:59,504 Speaker 3: we mentioned Havana, Belgrade, Hanoi. As an operative, I can 572 00:29:59,544 --> 00:30:01,584 Speaker 3: imagine how I can set up an operation with a 573 00:30:01,624 --> 00:30:04,864 Speaker 3: backpack with this device to go after people and hit them. 574 00:30:05,344 --> 00:30:06,824 Speaker 3: But when you tell me you work in the White 575 00:30:06,824 --> 00:30:09,064 Speaker 3: House and you were hit by this, I don't see it, Like, 576 00:30:09,104 --> 00:30:11,904 Speaker 3: I don't understand if that makes sense that the Russians 577 00:30:11,904 --> 00:30:15,184 Speaker 3: would be that praizen in the United States. Maybe I 578 00:30:15,184 --> 00:30:17,264 Speaker 3: don't know, but that's the one that's the piece. When 579 00:30:17,304 --> 00:30:19,424 Speaker 3: I saw this, I'm like, yes, that doesn't connect with me. 580 00:30:19,464 --> 00:30:20,224 Speaker 3: The rest of it does. 581 00:30:20,424 --> 00:30:24,304 Speaker 4: You're not alone even among people who believe that AHI 582 00:30:24,464 --> 00:30:26,424 Speaker 4: is real, that don't believe that there have been attacks 583 00:30:26,464 --> 00:30:29,544 Speaker 4: on the US homeland. And for the purposes of our 584 00:30:29,584 --> 00:30:32,184 Speaker 4: investigation at the Insider, when we look at attacks, we 585 00:30:32,304 --> 00:30:34,624 Speaker 4: want we want our own receipts from the Russian side, 586 00:30:34,784 --> 00:30:38,264 Speaker 4: so we only looked at overseas attacks. I only focus 587 00:30:38,304 --> 00:30:41,704 Speaker 4: on what are called the cornerstone cases. All the cornerstone 588 00:30:41,744 --> 00:30:45,264 Speaker 4: cases happened outside the United States. I don't know. I mean, 589 00:30:45,304 --> 00:30:47,824 Speaker 4: I've spoken to ops people who are like, listen for 590 00:30:47,824 --> 00:30:51,224 Speaker 4: the Russians to be running around with a portable pulse 591 00:30:51,384 --> 00:30:55,184 Speaker 4: microwave weapon and doing the kind of surveillance and all 592 00:30:55,224 --> 00:30:57,424 Speaker 4: the stuff that you know that would be required to 593 00:30:57,944 --> 00:31:00,024 Speaker 4: pattern of life for a target and then hitting them 594 00:31:00,024 --> 00:31:02,384 Speaker 4: and then getting away with it on US soil. Much 595 00:31:02,464 --> 00:31:04,424 Speaker 4: less in Washington, d C. On the step in the 596 00:31:04,464 --> 00:31:06,944 Speaker 4: White House. They don't believe it. I'm a little skeptical 597 00:31:06,944 --> 00:31:09,024 Speaker 4: ofout myself. And one of the points of the piece 598 00:31:09,104 --> 00:31:12,344 Speaker 4: that I tried to draw out was those who say 599 00:31:12,344 --> 00:31:15,944 Speaker 4: that this is sociogenic illness or mass hysteria, they have 600 00:31:15,984 --> 00:31:19,344 Speaker 4: a point. What happened was when CIA's decided to look 601 00:31:19,344 --> 00:31:21,944 Speaker 4: into this, there was kind of an open casting call 602 00:31:22,064 --> 00:31:24,824 Speaker 4: do you think you've been hit? The HI? And what 603 00:31:24,904 --> 00:31:26,624 Speaker 4: happened was people are calling in They're like, yeah, I 604 00:31:26,624 --> 00:31:28,304 Speaker 4: listened to my headphones a little too loud and there's 605 00:31:28,344 --> 00:31:30,384 Speaker 4: ringing in my ears. Do I have AHI? And so 606 00:31:30,424 --> 00:31:32,424 Speaker 4: you can see why a lot of analysts kind of 607 00:31:32,504 --> 00:31:35,424 Speaker 4: rolled their eyes and said, is all bullshit? But you 608 00:31:35,464 --> 00:31:38,064 Speaker 4: know this is this is a conflation of two different things. 609 00:31:38,424 --> 00:31:42,624 Speaker 4: The cornerstone cases are people, as I say, impeccable credentials. 610 00:31:42,704 --> 00:31:44,704 Speaker 4: We know their backgrounds, we know what they did for 611 00:31:44,744 --> 00:31:46,464 Speaker 4: a living, and against whom. 612 00:31:46,424 --> 00:31:49,064 Speaker 3: What's the number there? Are you talking? Ten, twenty thirty? 613 00:31:49,064 --> 00:31:50,504 Speaker 3: What do you think that is? 614 00:31:50,824 --> 00:31:53,504 Speaker 4: So the only the ones that I've looked into are 615 00:31:54,064 --> 00:31:57,984 Speaker 4: half a dozen. Now there could be dozens. My belief 616 00:31:58,104 --> 00:31:59,904 Speaker 4: is the ones that you'll you're ever going to get 617 00:31:59,904 --> 00:32:03,384 Speaker 4: any real solid evidence for number less than one hundred. 618 00:32:03,824 --> 00:32:06,944 Speaker 4: Now people disagree with me. People who are working on 619 00:32:07,024 --> 00:32:09,744 Speaker 4: what's called the Cross Functional Team at the Pentagon, which 620 00:32:09,784 --> 00:32:12,984 Speaker 4: was looking into AHI and also the intelligence community's failure 621 00:32:13,064 --> 00:32:16,144 Speaker 4: to get to the bottom of it. They say there 622 00:32:16,144 --> 00:32:18,664 Speaker 4: have been fifteen hundred reported attacks. They put a little 623 00:32:18,664 --> 00:32:22,304 Speaker 4: more credence into attacks on the US homeland. Hey, I'm 624 00:32:22,344 --> 00:32:24,824 Speaker 4: not going to argue with them if they have the goods. 625 00:32:24,984 --> 00:32:27,064 Speaker 4: I don't have those goods. So all I can deal 626 00:32:27,104 --> 00:32:29,864 Speaker 4: with is I want to see your medical records, right, 627 00:32:29,904 --> 00:32:31,744 Speaker 4: I want to talk to I want to see your 628 00:32:31,744 --> 00:32:33,584 Speaker 4: service record. I want to talk to people who know you. 629 00:32:33,704 --> 00:32:36,824 Speaker 4: Because you have to make your own judgment of a person. 630 00:32:36,864 --> 00:32:38,984 Speaker 4: I mean are they lying? Are they even if they 631 00:32:38,984 --> 00:32:42,024 Speaker 4: don't realize they're manufacturing things? You know, they might be 632 00:32:42,544 --> 00:32:45,344 Speaker 4: trafficking in fantasy. Maybe they've been so traumatized by other 633 00:32:45,624 --> 00:32:48,784 Speaker 4: psychological emotional experiences in the field, you have to take 634 00:32:48,824 --> 00:32:52,344 Speaker 4: these things into consideration. So for me, my subset of 635 00:32:52,424 --> 00:32:57,064 Speaker 4: data is incredibly small, and it's not growing bigger all 636 00:32:57,104 --> 00:32:58,584 Speaker 4: the time. I mean, I understand, you know, for the 637 00:32:58,584 --> 00:33:01,144 Speaker 4: purposes of broadcast television, somebody comes in, they have a 638 00:33:01,184 --> 00:33:03,704 Speaker 4: compelling story, you put them on camera, and they deserve 639 00:33:03,784 --> 00:33:05,704 Speaker 4: to be hurt. But I can't prove that. I can 640 00:33:05,704 --> 00:33:08,304 Speaker 4: only show these are the people who. I mean, one 641 00:33:08,344 --> 00:33:11,424 Speaker 4: case in Central Asia was, as I mentioned, the cornerstone 642 00:33:11,424 --> 00:33:15,624 Speaker 4: of the cornerstone, because this guy woke up in the morning, 643 00:33:16,104 --> 00:33:19,384 Speaker 4: his wife and child were hit and then he was 644 00:33:19,464 --> 00:33:22,624 Speaker 4: hit right and his wife and he both had biomarkers. 645 00:33:23,184 --> 00:33:27,264 Speaker 4: So it's massysteria. A married couple, both independently of each other, 646 00:33:27,504 --> 00:33:29,664 Speaker 4: come up with a vana syndrome in their mind and 647 00:33:29,704 --> 00:33:32,784 Speaker 4: then there are proteins in their pledge dream after the fact. 648 00:33:32,824 --> 00:33:35,424 Speaker 4: That doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not a scientist, 649 00:33:35,504 --> 00:33:37,544 Speaker 4: but I've talked to scientists who say that makes absolutely 650 00:33:37,544 --> 00:33:37,984 Speaker 4: no sense. 651 00:33:38,744 --> 00:33:41,624 Speaker 6: We'll return next week with part two of our conversation 652 00:33:41,704 --> 00:33:43,304 Speaker 6: with Michael Wife's about the. 653 00:33:43,264 --> 00:33:45,864 Speaker 1: Havana syndrome here on Mission Implausible. 654 00:33:50,904 --> 00:33:55,904 Speaker 6: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Seipher, 655 00:33:56,224 --> 00:33:57,544 Speaker 6: and Jonathan Stern. 656 00:33:57,704 --> 00:34:00,064 Speaker 1: The associate producer is Rachel Harner. 657 00:34:00,304 --> 00:34:04,104 Speaker 6: Mission Implausible is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable 658 00:34:04,144 --> 00:34:18,384 Speaker 6: pictures for iHeart Podcasts.