1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:15,916 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:22,596 --> 00:00:24,956 Speaker 2: I feel like college was a real struggle for me. 3 00:00:25,316 --> 00:00:26,836 Speaker 1: This is author Jessica Pan. 4 00:00:27,316 --> 00:00:30,676 Speaker 2: I always felt like, when you know college kids would 5 00:00:30,676 --> 00:00:33,316 Speaker 2: go out and party or go to clubs, I thought 6 00:00:33,356 --> 00:00:35,876 Speaker 2: we were all secretly waiting to like come home and 7 00:00:35,916 --> 00:00:37,156 Speaker 2: then you know, get our pajamas. 8 00:00:37,396 --> 00:00:40,356 Speaker 1: Jessica had many close friends in college, she couldn't always 9 00:00:40,396 --> 00:00:43,596 Speaker 1: relate to how outgoing her buddies were. Her besties seemed 10 00:00:43,596 --> 00:00:46,556 Speaker 1: to seek out noisy parties and busy dance floors, but 11 00:00:46,676 --> 00:00:49,316 Speaker 1: Jessica was much more at home with small gatherings and 12 00:00:49,356 --> 00:00:53,316 Speaker 1: intimate conversations. Jessica's friends adored her, but they couldn't always 13 00:00:53,356 --> 00:00:56,636 Speaker 1: relate to her preferences and just assumed Jessica would want 14 00:00:56,636 --> 00:00:59,756 Speaker 1: to go big. To celebrate. When she turned twenty two. 15 00:00:59,556 --> 00:01:01,756 Speaker 2: They threw me this surprise birthday party. 16 00:01:02,156 --> 00:01:05,516 Speaker 1: Friends and family members gathered secretly and waited in Jessica's 17 00:01:05,596 --> 00:01:08,316 Speaker 1: dark bedroom, ready to pop out and scream. As soon 18 00:01:08,356 --> 00:01:09,036 Speaker 1: as she got. 19 00:01:08,836 --> 00:01:13,276 Speaker 2: Home and I walked in, there was like fifty people 20 00:01:13,316 --> 00:01:17,116 Speaker 2: staring at me, and I burst into tears. It was 21 00:01:17,156 --> 00:01:20,676 Speaker 2: my worst nightmare. That's one of the times I felt 22 00:01:20,836 --> 00:01:23,876 Speaker 2: very much like, Okay, I am slightly different from my 23 00:01:23,996 --> 00:01:24,916 Speaker 2: extroverted friends. 24 00:01:25,276 --> 00:01:28,716 Speaker 1: But it wasn't just those extroverted friends. Jessica also felt 25 00:01:28,756 --> 00:01:30,476 Speaker 1: different from the people she grew up with. 26 00:01:30,716 --> 00:01:32,916 Speaker 2: I often say that my parents are like the two 27 00:01:33,036 --> 00:01:36,756 Speaker 2: chattiest people in America because they absolutely love talking to 28 00:01:36,796 --> 00:01:40,556 Speaker 2: strangers to the point where it is embarrassing. You'll be 29 00:01:40,636 --> 00:01:42,996 Speaker 2: in line for a restaurant, or you'll be on the 30 00:01:42,996 --> 00:01:45,196 Speaker 2: plane or anywhere, and my mom is talking to someone, 31 00:01:45,236 --> 00:01:47,116 Speaker 2: and then my dad's joining in, and there it's just, 32 00:01:47,196 --> 00:01:48,956 Speaker 2: I don't know. They're the complete opposite of me. 33 00:01:49,436 --> 00:01:52,116 Speaker 1: Jessica knew her social needs differed from the people around her, 34 00:01:52,476 --> 00:01:53,636 Speaker 1: but she wasn't sure why. 35 00:01:54,236 --> 00:01:57,396 Speaker 2: So when I was growing up, the labels introvert and extrovert, 36 00:01:57,676 --> 00:02:00,036 Speaker 2: they were not these buzzy terms that everybody knew about, 37 00:02:00,116 --> 00:02:01,756 Speaker 2: so I'd never heard of them. And I think I 38 00:02:01,796 --> 00:02:04,716 Speaker 2: found out in my twenties what an introvert was, and 39 00:02:04,796 --> 00:02:06,436 Speaker 2: I immediately recognized myself. 40 00:02:06,596 --> 00:02:11,036 Speaker 1: The American Psychological Association defines insion as an orientation towards 41 00:02:11,076 --> 00:02:14,156 Speaker 1: the internal, private world of one's inner thoughts and feelings, 42 00:02:14,396 --> 00:02:17,756 Speaker 1: rather than toward the outer world of people. Compared to extroverts, 43 00:02:17,956 --> 00:02:21,356 Speaker 1: introverts are more withdrawn, reserved, quiet and deliberate. 44 00:02:21,516 --> 00:02:25,316 Speaker 2: Someone who concentrates really well is a good listener, likes 45 00:02:25,316 --> 00:02:28,636 Speaker 2: to be alone, gets exhausted, over stimulated by lots of people. 46 00:02:29,076 --> 00:02:32,476 Speaker 2: And I felt really seen by that definition. I would 47 00:02:32,556 --> 00:02:34,876 Speaker 2: never raise my hand in a class. That would never happen. 48 00:02:35,196 --> 00:02:37,356 Speaker 2: I would fake sick if there was a presentation I 49 00:02:37,396 --> 00:02:39,396 Speaker 2: had to give. I think I got a solo to 50 00:02:39,396 --> 00:02:41,316 Speaker 2: sing in a choir, and I didn't tell my mom 51 00:02:41,396 --> 00:02:43,956 Speaker 2: about it, and I just pretended that I had a fever. 52 00:02:44,196 --> 00:02:46,276 Speaker 2: I don't even think she knows about that to this day. 53 00:02:46,996 --> 00:02:50,276 Speaker 2: And so Jessica began referring to herself as an introvert 54 00:02:50,316 --> 00:02:53,436 Speaker 2: with a capital I. It quickly became a badge of honor. 55 00:02:53,916 --> 00:02:57,036 Speaker 2: But I began to use that label of introvert as 56 00:02:57,156 --> 00:02:59,756 Speaker 2: an excuse to say no to anything that gave me 57 00:02:59,916 --> 00:03:01,356 Speaker 2: any sort of social anxiety. 58 00:03:01,836 --> 00:03:05,116 Speaker 1: Jessica sat out important social events, even ones that she 59 00:03:05,196 --> 00:03:07,516 Speaker 1: knew might be good for her or for her career. 60 00:03:08,036 --> 00:03:10,436 Speaker 2: I didn't want to give speeches. I didn't want to 61 00:03:10,436 --> 00:03:12,916 Speaker 2: host parties. I didn't want to lead workshops because I 62 00:03:12,956 --> 00:03:15,716 Speaker 2: thought to myself, no, I'm an introvert. Introverts don't do 63 00:03:15,796 --> 00:03:18,356 Speaker 2: things like that. And I was completely limiting who I 64 00:03:18,476 --> 00:03:21,396 Speaker 2: was and who I could become. At times, Jessica did 65 00:03:21,516 --> 00:03:23,876 Speaker 2: question what she was passing up, like the time she 66 00:03:23,916 --> 00:03:25,956 Speaker 2: went to a friend's wedding. The bride stood up and 67 00:03:25,956 --> 00:03:28,636 Speaker 2: she gave this amazing speech, and she was crying and 68 00:03:28,636 --> 00:03:30,996 Speaker 2: her parents were crying, and I felt like, why didn't 69 00:03:31,036 --> 00:03:33,116 Speaker 2: I give a speech at my wedding? And I didn't 70 00:03:33,156 --> 00:03:35,556 Speaker 2: do it because I was too anxious. I was scared 71 00:03:35,596 --> 00:03:37,956 Speaker 2: I would not sound articulate. I would be scared that 72 00:03:37,956 --> 00:03:40,156 Speaker 2: I wouldn't look good. I was scared that I embarrassed myself, 73 00:03:40,196 --> 00:03:42,636 Speaker 2: when actually I wish I had done that, because I 74 00:03:42,676 --> 00:03:46,556 Speaker 2: think the benefits could have tremendously outweighed the negative consequences. 75 00:03:46,876 --> 00:03:50,676 Speaker 1: But the negative consequences of Jessica's introversion became even clearer 76 00:03:50,836 --> 00:03:52,796 Speaker 1: when she and her husband moved to London. 77 00:03:53,436 --> 00:03:56,636 Speaker 2: It's notoriously not the most friendly place in the entire world, 78 00:03:56,876 --> 00:03:59,796 Speaker 2: and it's hard to make friends as an adult. And 79 00:03:59,956 --> 00:04:02,196 Speaker 2: also I was a freelancer, so I was working from home, 80 00:04:02,316 --> 00:04:05,076 Speaker 2: so it seemed absolutely impossible to make these connections and 81 00:04:05,116 --> 00:04:05,956 Speaker 2: get out of my shell. 82 00:04:06,356 --> 00:04:08,756 Speaker 1: And that was when Jessica decided to embark on an 83 00:04:08,796 --> 00:04:13,036 Speaker 1: innovative personal experiment, one that wound up changing her life forever. 84 00:04:13,676 --> 00:04:16,116 Speaker 2: I was thinking, if I really want to commit to this, 85 00:04:16,636 --> 00:04:17,396 Speaker 2: I have to do this. 86 00:04:18,836 --> 00:04:20,956 Speaker 1: If you've listened to other episodes in this new season 87 00:04:20,956 --> 00:04:24,036 Speaker 1: on getting more social, then you've probably already heard about 88 00:04:24,036 --> 00:04:27,316 Speaker 1: the benefits of connecting with other people. Pretty Much every 89 00:04:27,356 --> 00:04:30,316 Speaker 1: study ever done on the relationship between well being and 90 00:04:30,356 --> 00:04:33,796 Speaker 1: social interaction shows that more people time makes us happier. 91 00:04:34,316 --> 00:04:37,476 Speaker 1: But what if you, like Jessica dread parties and crowds 92 00:04:37,476 --> 00:04:41,396 Speaker 1: and spontaneous conversations with strangers. Are you doomed to less 93 00:04:41,396 --> 00:04:44,316 Speaker 1: happiness than your more talkative friends. Or is there a 94 00:04:44,356 --> 00:04:46,676 Speaker 1: way that the introverts among us can also get the 95 00:04:46,676 --> 00:04:53,756 Speaker 1: happiness benefits that come from more social connection. Our minds 96 00:04:53,756 --> 00:04:55,836 Speaker 1: are constantly telling us what to do to be happy. 97 00:04:56,196 --> 00:04:58,396 Speaker 1: But what if our minds are wrong? What if our 98 00:04:58,436 --> 00:05:00,836 Speaker 1: minds are lying to us, leading us away from what 99 00:05:00,876 --> 00:05:03,636 Speaker 1: will really make us happy. The good news is the 100 00:05:03,716 --> 00:05:05,996 Speaker 1: understanding the science of the mind can point us all 101 00:05:06,036 --> 00:05:09,076 Speaker 1: back in the right direction. You're listening to the How 102 00:05:09,116 --> 00:05:11,076 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab with doctor Laurie Santos. 103 00:05:16,116 --> 00:05:19,276 Speaker 3: Hi, Laurie, I'm having trouble connecting my MC so give 104 00:05:19,276 --> 00:05:20,316 Speaker 3: me just a sec I. 105 00:05:20,276 --> 00:05:23,156 Speaker 1: Wanted to unpack what psychologists have learned about the science 106 00:05:23,156 --> 00:05:26,076 Speaker 1: of introversion and the unintended consequences it can have for 107 00:05:26,116 --> 00:05:28,836 Speaker 1: our happiness, and that meant there was one person in 108 00:05:28,876 --> 00:05:30,556 Speaker 1: the field I really needed to call. 109 00:05:30,796 --> 00:05:33,436 Speaker 4: My computers are rejecting the bluetooth connection. 110 00:05:33,556 --> 00:05:36,876 Speaker 1: Sonya Lubermirski is a professor at the University of California 111 00:05:36,956 --> 00:05:39,996 Speaker 1: at Riverside. She's the author of the How of Happiness, 112 00:05:40,196 --> 00:05:43,116 Speaker 1: A New Approach to Getting the Life You Want. Sonya 113 00:05:43,196 --> 00:05:45,636 Speaker 1: is a world expert on the science of happiness, so 114 00:05:45,756 --> 00:05:48,196 Speaker 1: not surprisingly, she's very much in demand. 115 00:05:48,436 --> 00:05:50,436 Speaker 4: I've been crazy busy, so I'm like, this is like 116 00:05:50,916 --> 00:05:52,796 Speaker 4: I don't even have time to say hi, Like I bet, 117 00:05:52,796 --> 00:05:54,556 Speaker 4: I'm going from one meeting to another. 118 00:05:54,916 --> 00:05:57,076 Speaker 1: I was super grateful that Sonya made time for us 119 00:05:57,316 --> 00:05:59,556 Speaker 1: and that she put up with a few technical problems. 120 00:05:59,996 --> 00:06:02,156 Speaker 4: Do you can you keep talking? It's working that great? 121 00:06:02,436 --> 00:06:04,956 Speaker 1: In order to share a key finding from her decades 122 00:06:04,996 --> 00:06:07,316 Speaker 1: of work in positive psychology. 123 00:06:07,156 --> 00:06:10,356 Speaker 4: After many years of research, we landed on this cliche, 124 00:06:10,436 --> 00:06:12,796 Speaker 4: which is that the key to happiness is really connection, 125 00:06:12,996 --> 00:06:14,756 Speaker 4: and so if you want to increase happiness, you want 126 00:06:14,756 --> 00:06:16,876 Speaker 4: to make people feel more connected. 127 00:06:17,436 --> 00:06:20,316 Speaker 1: It really is that simple. You will be happier if 128 00:06:20,356 --> 00:06:23,636 Speaker 1: you interact with more people, even if you're an introvert. 129 00:06:24,156 --> 00:06:26,076 Speaker 4: What's interesting is clear if you. Studies have shown that 130 00:06:26,116 --> 00:06:31,196 Speaker 4: actually both extverts and introverts bena fit by more social interaction. 131 00:06:31,916 --> 00:06:36,316 Speaker 1: Most introverts predict that social interaction will feel exhausting, anxiety provoking, 132 00:06:36,436 --> 00:06:39,276 Speaker 1: and crummy, so they don't engage in this activity nearly 133 00:06:39,316 --> 00:06:42,076 Speaker 1: as much as extroverts do, and the science shows that 134 00:06:42,156 --> 00:06:45,956 Speaker 1: this choice can have big negative consequences for introverts. Happiness 135 00:06:46,356 --> 00:06:49,276 Speaker 1: research since the nineteen eighties has shown that, on average, 136 00:06:49,636 --> 00:06:54,116 Speaker 1: introverts are less happy than extroverts, presumably because they consistently 137 00:06:54,156 --> 00:06:57,516 Speaker 1: miss out on the well being benefits that social connection provides. 138 00:06:57,996 --> 00:07:01,316 Speaker 1: But that leads to an even bigger problem, because introversion 139 00:07:01,516 --> 00:07:03,916 Speaker 1: isn't just some flippant label we throw on when we 140 00:07:03,916 --> 00:07:06,556 Speaker 1: don't feel like going to a party. Introversion is one 141 00:07:06,556 --> 00:07:09,036 Speaker 1: of the five core dimensions that make up our person 142 00:07:09,996 --> 00:07:15,636 Speaker 1: the other four being openness, conscientiousness, agreeableness, and neuroticism. Psychologists 143 00:07:15,676 --> 00:07:18,756 Speaker 1: have long assumed that these so called Big five personality 144 00:07:18,796 --> 00:07:22,156 Speaker 1: traits are stable. They don't change all that much. Across 145 00:07:22,156 --> 00:07:26,236 Speaker 1: our lifetimes or across different situations. If you are outgoing 146 00:07:26,276 --> 00:07:29,316 Speaker 1: and the center of attention as a teenager, then psychologists 147 00:07:29,316 --> 00:07:32,796 Speaker 1: would assume that you're still likely to be extroverted decades later. 148 00:07:33,116 --> 00:07:35,716 Speaker 1: But if you spent your teen years, like Jessica Pan 149 00:07:35,996 --> 00:07:38,916 Speaker 1: wishing you could run home to be alone, well, most 150 00:07:38,996 --> 00:07:42,076 Speaker 1: psychologists would probably assume that you're unlikely to be a 151 00:07:42,076 --> 00:07:45,316 Speaker 1: social butterfly today. But does that mean that introverts are 152 00:07:45,316 --> 00:07:48,596 Speaker 1: doomed by their personality, destined never to share the joy 153 00:07:48,596 --> 00:07:52,476 Speaker 1: of connection that extroverts take for granted? Sonia didn't think. 154 00:07:52,516 --> 00:07:55,436 Speaker 3: So, what is a trade is basically behavior, you know, 155 00:07:55,516 --> 00:07:57,876 Speaker 3: like when you do something over and over again. If 156 00:07:57,916 --> 00:08:00,076 Speaker 3: I'm like always making my bed and I'm organized and 157 00:08:00,116 --> 00:08:03,596 Speaker 3: I'm always on time, people say, oh, Sonia's hi conscientiousness. 158 00:08:03,636 --> 00:08:06,516 Speaker 3: But if you're not high on constanciousness, theoretically you can 159 00:08:06,596 --> 00:08:08,796 Speaker 3: try to make your meetings on time and make your 160 00:08:08,796 --> 00:08:11,836 Speaker 3: bed morning and so the same thing for extroversion. 161 00:08:12,236 --> 00:08:14,916 Speaker 1: Sonya reason that introverts could engage in what she called 162 00:08:14,996 --> 00:08:18,796 Speaker 1: volitional personality change. If they simply behaved in a more 163 00:08:18,796 --> 00:08:22,196 Speaker 1: extroverted way, maybe they could reap the happiness benefits that 164 00:08:22,236 --> 00:08:26,356 Speaker 1: come with having a more extroverted personality. To test this theory, 165 00:08:26,636 --> 00:08:29,716 Speaker 1: Sonya teamed up with her graduate student Seth Margolis and 166 00:08:29,796 --> 00:08:32,196 Speaker 1: recruited over one hundred college students to take part in 167 00:08:32,236 --> 00:08:35,636 Speaker 1: a new study. Some of these students were naturally introverted, 168 00:08:35,916 --> 00:08:39,396 Speaker 1: whereas others were more extroverted, but all of the subjects 169 00:08:39,476 --> 00:08:42,916 Speaker 1: were randomly divided into two groups. The first group was 170 00:08:42,956 --> 00:08:45,116 Speaker 1: told that for the next week they needed to be 171 00:08:45,156 --> 00:08:49,716 Speaker 1: as talkative, assertive, and spontaneous as possible. Essentially, they had 172 00:08:49,716 --> 00:08:53,076 Speaker 1: to act extroverted, but the second group was told to 173 00:08:53,116 --> 00:08:56,956 Speaker 1: do just the opposite. They were asked to act as deliberate, quiet, 174 00:08:56,956 --> 00:09:00,676 Speaker 1: and reserved as possible. They were going to be more introverted. 175 00:09:01,956 --> 00:09:04,636 Speaker 1: Both groups then filled out surveys to measure their overall 176 00:09:04,676 --> 00:09:07,716 Speaker 1: well being and how much positive emotion they experienced over 177 00:09:07,756 --> 00:09:10,236 Speaker 1: the week. So what did Sonya find. 178 00:09:10,916 --> 00:09:13,876 Speaker 4: We found that both INTROVERTSI and extroverts during the week 179 00:09:13,916 --> 00:09:17,516 Speaker 4: that they were asked to act more extroverted got hugely happier. 180 00:09:17,876 --> 00:09:20,276 Speaker 1: Sonia says the boost and happiness she observed in this 181 00:09:20,356 --> 00:09:23,316 Speaker 1: be more extroverted condition was one of the largest effects 182 00:09:23,356 --> 00:09:27,596 Speaker 1: she's observed in decades of studying happiness interventions. But just 183 00:09:27,596 --> 00:09:31,316 Speaker 1: as acting more extroverted had a significant upside, Sonya also 184 00:09:31,356 --> 00:09:34,516 Speaker 1: observed an effect of doing the opposite. Subjects who were 185 00:09:34,516 --> 00:09:38,356 Speaker 1: asked to act reserved in shy showed statistically reduced levels 186 00:09:38,356 --> 00:09:41,876 Speaker 1: of well being. Acting introverted for a week appears to 187 00:09:41,916 --> 00:09:46,156 Speaker 1: significantly reduce our happiness, But Sonia says the most shocking 188 00:09:46,196 --> 00:09:49,476 Speaker 1: finding from her study, especially for researchers in the field 189 00:09:49,476 --> 00:09:53,916 Speaker 1: of personality psychology, was that subjects were able to do 190 00:09:54,156 --> 00:09:58,036 Speaker 1: what she asked them to. People could change their personality 191 00:09:58,036 --> 00:10:01,596 Speaker 1: traits if they tried, at least for short periods of time, 192 00:10:02,716 --> 00:10:05,556 Speaker 1: and that finding was very good news to author and 193 00:10:05,636 --> 00:10:06,996 Speaker 1: introvert Jessica Pan. 194 00:10:07,396 --> 00:10:10,276 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, so we can change, we don't 195 00:10:10,316 --> 00:10:12,796 Speaker 2: always have to be the same, And yeah, I found 196 00:10:12,796 --> 00:10:13,596 Speaker 2: that really freeing. 197 00:10:14,076 --> 00:10:16,556 Speaker 1: When we last left Jessica, she was sad and lonely 198 00:10:16,596 --> 00:10:18,876 Speaker 1: in her new life in the UK, and that's when 199 00:10:18,876 --> 00:10:21,956 Speaker 1: she began reading about the psychology of introverts and happened 200 00:10:22,036 --> 00:10:25,476 Speaker 1: upon Sonya's new study. Learning that people could volitionally change 201 00:10:25,476 --> 00:10:28,876 Speaker 1: their personality traits led Jessica to try something radical. 202 00:10:29,236 --> 00:10:31,556 Speaker 2: I thought, look, I'm not that happy right now In 203 00:10:31,596 --> 00:10:34,196 Speaker 2: my life and I'm a hardcore introvert. What would happen 204 00:10:34,636 --> 00:10:36,476 Speaker 2: if I lived like the other half of the world? 205 00:10:36,716 --> 00:10:37,796 Speaker 2: What could I gain from that? 206 00:10:38,196 --> 00:10:41,676 Speaker 1: Jessica decided to begin her own experiment, but rather than 207 00:10:41,716 --> 00:10:45,036 Speaker 1: behaving more spontaneously and assertively for just a week, as 208 00:10:45,076 --> 00:10:47,956 Speaker 1: Sonya's subjects had done, Jessica pledged to act like an 209 00:10:47,996 --> 00:10:51,676 Speaker 1: extrovert for an entire year. Her twelve month journey turned 210 00:10:51,676 --> 00:10:54,236 Speaker 1: into a new book, Sorry I'm late. I didn't want 211 00:10:54,236 --> 00:10:58,316 Speaker 1: to come one introverts Year of Saying Yes, and Jessica's 212 00:10:58,316 --> 00:11:00,836 Speaker 1: big Year of Saying Yes didn't just involve becoming a 213 00:11:00,836 --> 00:11:03,716 Speaker 1: bit more talkative. Jessica committed to trying out some of 214 00:11:03,756 --> 00:11:06,116 Speaker 1: the most terrifying social encounters. 215 00:11:05,676 --> 00:11:10,276 Speaker 2: Possible, talking to strangers, public speaking, doing improv comedy, things 216 00:11:10,356 --> 00:11:11,756 Speaker 2: like that. That were my nightmares. 217 00:11:11,996 --> 00:11:13,876 Speaker 1: And as you'll hear when we get back from the break, 218 00:11:14,076 --> 00:11:16,916 Speaker 1: Jessica found that pushing herself to make every social connection 219 00:11:17,036 --> 00:11:20,916 Speaker 1: possible required getting more vulnerable than even she expected. 220 00:11:21,196 --> 00:11:23,356 Speaker 2: I would need to just go for it and embarrass 221 00:11:23,396 --> 00:11:25,196 Speaker 2: myself again and again and again. 222 00:11:26,036 --> 00:11:27,756 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab We'll be right back. 223 00:11:34,116 --> 00:11:36,556 Speaker 2: So I had this massive fear of talking to strangers 224 00:11:36,596 --> 00:11:37,556 Speaker 2: I just couldn't do it. 225 00:11:37,836 --> 00:11:41,556 Speaker 1: Introvert Jessica Pan was ready for an entire year of extraverting, 226 00:11:42,076 --> 00:11:45,556 Speaker 1: but where should she start. Jessica figured that some expert 227 00:11:45,596 --> 00:11:49,356 Speaker 1: advice might help her. First call went out to psychotherapist 228 00:11:49,396 --> 00:11:52,116 Speaker 1: and Boston University professor Stefan Hoffmann. 229 00:11:52,476 --> 00:11:57,356 Speaker 2: He specializes in exposure therapy, so he'll have his patients 230 00:11:57,676 --> 00:12:00,996 Speaker 2: do really humiliating things like stand on the street and 231 00:12:01,076 --> 00:12:03,996 Speaker 2: just sing, or ask someone on the subway for like 232 00:12:04,036 --> 00:12:07,716 Speaker 2: two hundred dollars, things where they are guaranteed to be rejected. 233 00:12:08,196 --> 00:12:10,956 Speaker 1: Jessica explained to Stefan that she was terrified of putting 234 00:12:10,996 --> 00:12:13,756 Speaker 1: herself out there, especially with people she didn't know. 235 00:12:14,396 --> 00:12:17,116 Speaker 2: If I was approaching a stranger, my heart would raise. 236 00:12:17,396 --> 00:12:19,396 Speaker 2: I'd feel like I was gonna throw up. I just 237 00:12:19,676 --> 00:12:23,876 Speaker 2: had so much anxiety around it. Stuffan didn't advocate baby steps. 238 00:12:24,436 --> 00:12:27,276 Speaker 2: He wanted Jessica to dive head first into the social 239 00:12:27,316 --> 00:12:31,036 Speaker 2: deep end. And he said, okay, so you live in 240 00:12:31,076 --> 00:12:33,596 Speaker 2: London and you're scared of strangers. It's what I would 241 00:12:33,636 --> 00:12:35,596 Speaker 2: have you do is I would have you ask a 242 00:12:35,676 --> 00:12:38,556 Speaker 2: really stupid question to a stranger. I would have you 243 00:12:38,596 --> 00:12:41,676 Speaker 2: go up to somebody and say excuse me, is there 244 00:12:41,716 --> 00:12:44,716 Speaker 2: a Queen of England? And if so, what's her name? 245 00:12:45,196 --> 00:12:47,356 Speaker 2: And as soon as he said this, I wanted to 246 00:12:47,356 --> 00:12:49,916 Speaker 2: throw up and I was thinking, there's no way I'm going. 247 00:12:49,756 --> 00:12:50,116 Speaker 4: To do that. 248 00:12:50,876 --> 00:12:54,516 Speaker 1: Steffan was making Jessica ask strangers pretty much the dumbest 249 00:12:54,596 --> 00:12:57,356 Speaker 1: question you could pose to a Londoner because back then 250 00:12:57,436 --> 00:12:59,516 Speaker 1: everyone knew that there was in fact a Queen of 251 00:12:59,556 --> 00:13:02,356 Speaker 1: England and her name was Elizabeth. It was an encounter 252 00:13:02,396 --> 00:13:04,436 Speaker 1: that was set up to make Jessica look as stupid 253 00:13:04,476 --> 00:13:07,516 Speaker 1: as possible, but as Stefan explained, that was kind of 254 00:13:07,516 --> 00:13:07,956 Speaker 1: the point. 255 00:13:08,316 --> 00:13:11,036 Speaker 2: Look, you know, no one's going to fire you, you're 256 00:13:11,036 --> 00:13:13,356 Speaker 2: not going to get arrested, your husband's not going to 257 00:13:13,436 --> 00:13:15,516 Speaker 2: leave you, you're not going to get thrown in jail. 258 00:13:16,036 --> 00:13:17,996 Speaker 2: So you're just going to look a little bit stupid. 259 00:13:18,636 --> 00:13:21,436 Speaker 1: And to compound her discomfort, Jessica headed to one of 260 00:13:21,476 --> 00:13:23,596 Speaker 1: London's least welcoming locations. 261 00:13:25,476 --> 00:13:27,236 Speaker 2: So I think one of the most awkward places to 262 00:13:27,276 --> 00:13:30,196 Speaker 2: talk to a stranger in London is on the underground 263 00:13:30,356 --> 00:13:32,316 Speaker 2: because people they don't want to be bothered. 264 00:13:32,676 --> 00:13:35,796 Speaker 1: Jessica was ready to push herself, just like steffanhead advised, 265 00:13:36,076 --> 00:13:39,076 Speaker 1: so she sought out the least approachable stranger she could find. 266 00:13:39,396 --> 00:13:42,396 Speaker 1: She picked a busy looking businessman in an expensive suit. 267 00:13:42,516 --> 00:13:45,756 Speaker 2: I was like, excuse me, and he was like what? 268 00:13:46,436 --> 00:13:49,236 Speaker 2: And I said, is there a Queen of England? And 269 00:13:49,316 --> 00:13:52,996 Speaker 2: he was like the Queen of England? And I said, yeah, 270 00:13:53,036 --> 00:13:56,956 Speaker 2: who is she? And he said it's Victoria and then 271 00:13:56,956 --> 00:13:57,676 Speaker 2: he walked off. 272 00:13:58,276 --> 00:14:01,996 Speaker 1: That wasn't the answer she was expecting. Victoria hadn't been 273 00:14:02,076 --> 00:14:04,716 Speaker 1: queen for over one hundred years. Was the man walking 274 00:14:04,796 --> 00:14:08,436 Speaker 1: Jessica giving a stupid answer to her stupid question. Jessica 275 00:14:08,556 --> 00:14:11,636 Speaker 1: wasn't sure, so she flagged down another scary looking businessman 276 00:14:11,876 --> 00:14:15,076 Speaker 1: and posed the same question again, and he also said Victoria. 277 00:14:15,236 --> 00:14:16,636 Speaker 2: And I didn't know if it was they were just 278 00:14:16,716 --> 00:14:19,076 Speaker 2: messing with me or what was happening. But then I 279 00:14:19,156 --> 00:14:20,836 Speaker 2: flagged down a few more women and they told me 280 00:14:20,876 --> 00:14:21,556 Speaker 2: it was Elizabeth. 281 00:14:21,876 --> 00:14:24,956 Speaker 1: Looking idiotic in front of total strangers in a noisy, 282 00:14:24,996 --> 00:14:28,716 Speaker 1: dirty subway station might not sound like fun, especially for 283 00:14:28,796 --> 00:14:32,796 Speaker 1: an introvert, but the experience left Jessica feeling elated. 284 00:14:33,236 --> 00:14:38,156 Speaker 2: I felt like I could fly. I felt insanely exhilarated 285 00:14:38,196 --> 00:14:41,716 Speaker 2: because it was so embarrassing, and there were other people listening. 286 00:14:41,796 --> 00:14:45,436 Speaker 2: It was my worst fear, and Stefan was right. Nothing 287 00:14:45,476 --> 00:14:48,356 Speaker 2: bad happened to take her extroverting to the next level. 288 00:14:48,676 --> 00:14:52,036 Speaker 2: Jessica tagged in yet another expert, one who may sound 289 00:14:52,116 --> 00:14:54,876 Speaker 2: kind of familiar if you've listened to other episodes in 290 00:14:54,916 --> 00:14:57,116 Speaker 2: this special season. Should call him Nick? Or what should 291 00:14:57,156 --> 00:14:57,556 Speaker 2: I call him? 292 00:14:57,636 --> 00:14:59,556 Speaker 5: I'm Nicholas Epley, you can call me Nick. 293 00:14:59,716 --> 00:15:02,396 Speaker 1: Nick is a professor of behavioral science at the University 294 00:15:02,476 --> 00:15:04,596 Speaker 1: of Chicago's Booth School of Business. 295 00:15:04,796 --> 00:15:07,556 Speaker 2: I had read his research that said that when two 296 00:15:07,596 --> 00:15:10,676 Speaker 2: commuters are forced to talk to each other, they are 297 00:15:10,716 --> 00:15:12,556 Speaker 2: happier than they would have anticipated. 298 00:15:12,956 --> 00:15:15,156 Speaker 1: You might remember this study from an episode we ran 299 00:15:15,276 --> 00:15:19,356 Speaker 1: in our very first season entitled Mistakenly Seeking Solitude. In 300 00:15:19,396 --> 00:15:22,396 Speaker 1: the experiment, Nick found passengers who were about to hop 301 00:15:22,396 --> 00:15:24,796 Speaker 1: on a train from the Chicago suburbs on their way 302 00:15:24,836 --> 00:15:25,196 Speaker 1: to work. 303 00:15:25,476 --> 00:15:27,836 Speaker 5: We gave them an envelope that had a five dollars 304 00:15:27,836 --> 00:15:29,836 Speaker 5: Starbucks gift card in it, which turns out to be 305 00:15:29,916 --> 00:15:32,476 Speaker 5: the most valuable incentive that we know on the planet. 306 00:15:32,596 --> 00:15:34,836 Speaker 5: People will do anything for a five dollars Starbucks gift card, 307 00:15:34,916 --> 00:15:36,476 Speaker 5: including doctor strangers on trains. 308 00:15:36,716 --> 00:15:38,956 Speaker 1: Nick then told one group to spend the entire train 309 00:15:39,036 --> 00:15:42,316 Speaker 1: ride enjoying their solitude. They weren't allowed to talk to anyone, 310 00:15:42,876 --> 00:15:45,236 Speaker 1: which is pretty much what most of us usually do. 311 00:15:45,356 --> 00:15:47,676 Speaker 5: And almost nobody talks to strangers on the train. 312 00:15:48,156 --> 00:15:50,556 Speaker 1: But Nick asked a second group of commuters to do 313 00:15:50,596 --> 00:15:52,956 Speaker 1: something a little more radical. They had to spend the 314 00:15:53,116 --> 00:15:54,916 Speaker 1: entire train ride talking to someone. 315 00:15:55,236 --> 00:15:57,636 Speaker 5: We asked them to try to make a connection with 316 00:15:57,716 --> 00:16:00,116 Speaker 5: the person who sits down next to you this morning 317 00:16:00,276 --> 00:16:02,196 Speaker 5: on the train. Try to get to know something about 318 00:16:02,436 --> 00:16:03,996 Speaker 5: him or her. So they were going to have a 319 00:16:03,996 --> 00:16:07,476 Speaker 5: conversation after the ride. Nick surveyed the commuters to find 320 00:16:07,516 --> 00:16:10,396 Speaker 5: out how they were all feeling. The results were striking. 321 00:16:11,036 --> 00:16:13,396 Speaker 5: People who were forced to spend their entire train ride 322 00:16:13,436 --> 00:16:16,236 Speaker 5: talking to strangers felt happier than the ones that were 323 00:16:16,276 --> 00:16:17,796 Speaker 5: told to enjoy their solitude. 324 00:16:18,156 --> 00:16:20,236 Speaker 2: When I first read that research, I was like, what 325 00:16:20,316 --> 00:16:23,716 Speaker 2: is he talking about? That sounds insane to me. Nick 326 00:16:23,756 --> 00:16:26,636 Speaker 2: says that Jessica's not the only one with that reaction. 327 00:16:27,116 --> 00:16:29,036 Speaker 5: I get a lot of pushback on this because the 328 00:16:29,116 --> 00:16:30,676 Speaker 5: expectations are so strong. 329 00:16:31,076 --> 00:16:34,876 Speaker 1: Nick has even tested these mistaken expectations directly. In a 330 00:16:34,916 --> 00:16:38,556 Speaker 1: second study, subjects were asked which would feel better talking 331 00:16:38,556 --> 00:16:41,236 Speaker 1: to some random stranger on the train or just enjoying 332 00:16:41,236 --> 00:16:44,956 Speaker 1: the ride in silence. People overwhelmingly thought that being in 333 00:16:44,996 --> 00:16:49,156 Speaker 1: the talkative condition would suck. They predicted the exact opposite 334 00:16:49,236 --> 00:16:52,556 Speaker 1: of what Nick's results showed. Like Jessica, most of us 335 00:16:52,596 --> 00:16:56,716 Speaker 1: think that connecting with strangers will feel awkward, but we're wrong. 336 00:16:57,036 --> 00:16:58,796 Speaker 5: That's not what people's experience actually is. 337 00:16:59,596 --> 00:17:02,876 Speaker 1: Nick's subjects also mispredicted how much the stranger they chatted 338 00:17:02,916 --> 00:17:05,076 Speaker 1: with would enjoy the experience of being talked to. 339 00:17:05,516 --> 00:17:09,476 Speaker 5: That is, they underestimated how social other people were. And 340 00:17:09,596 --> 00:17:12,636 Speaker 5: notice that belief then becomes a kind of self fulfilling prophecy. 341 00:17:12,676 --> 00:17:14,716 Speaker 5: If I think, Glori, you don't want to talk to me, 342 00:17:15,636 --> 00:17:18,716 Speaker 5: then I'll sit down next to you at a conference, 343 00:17:18,716 --> 00:17:21,276 Speaker 5: say I won't talk to you. You will sit there 344 00:17:21,316 --> 00:17:23,596 Speaker 5: and we'll not talk to me. You'll look to me, 345 00:17:23,756 --> 00:17:25,676 Speaker 5: and because I'm not talking to you, you will infer 346 00:17:25,716 --> 00:17:27,356 Speaker 5: that I'm not interested in talking to you either, And 347 00:17:27,356 --> 00:17:30,316 Speaker 5: we'll both then sit there in silence, next to each other, 348 00:17:30,956 --> 00:17:34,116 Speaker 5: and we will both then confirm our expectations that talking 349 00:17:34,156 --> 00:17:36,036 Speaker 5: to you would have been unpleasant. We don't ever get 350 00:17:36,156 --> 00:17:38,916 Speaker 5: data that would tell us that those beliefs are wrong 351 00:17:38,956 --> 00:17:40,076 Speaker 5: because we don't try it. 352 00:17:40,556 --> 00:17:43,196 Speaker 1: But author Jessica Pan was ready to try it. She 353 00:17:43,276 --> 00:17:46,276 Speaker 1: met with Nick and quickly realized that he really practices 354 00:17:46,316 --> 00:17:46,996 Speaker 1: what he preaches. 355 00:17:47,436 --> 00:17:49,596 Speaker 2: Nicholas has no issue talking to strangers. 356 00:17:49,836 --> 00:17:53,436 Speaker 1: Nick talks with people on trains and planes and buses. 357 00:17:53,756 --> 00:17:57,076 Speaker 1: He chit chats with waiters and baristas and cafes and 358 00:17:57,156 --> 00:17:59,236 Speaker 1: cashiers at his local grocery store. 359 00:17:59,476 --> 00:18:02,636 Speaker 5: We know all of them now, often by name. They 360 00:18:02,676 --> 00:18:06,276 Speaker 5: know our kids, and that's fun. Once you start the conversation, 361 00:18:06,316 --> 00:18:08,236 Speaker 5: it's pretty easy to make it go. That's not hard. 362 00:18:08,276 --> 00:18:10,716 Speaker 5: It's starting that's hard. It's like a speed bump at 363 00:18:10,716 --> 00:18:12,796 Speaker 5: the top of a hill, and you have to get 364 00:18:12,796 --> 00:18:15,316 Speaker 5: over this speed bump to actually get things going. 365 00:18:15,836 --> 00:18:18,236 Speaker 1: Speed bump. What Nick thought of as a bump in 366 00:18:18,276 --> 00:18:21,116 Speaker 1: the road, felt like a mountain to an introvert like Jessica. 367 00:18:21,276 --> 00:18:23,636 Speaker 2: I felt like he could not relate to my anxiety 368 00:18:23,676 --> 00:18:26,676 Speaker 2: at all, and I couldn't relate to his total nonchalance 369 00:18:26,716 --> 00:18:27,756 Speaker 2: about chatting with people. 370 00:18:28,236 --> 00:18:31,036 Speaker 1: But Nick did share one fact about social connection that 371 00:18:31,156 --> 00:18:32,996 Speaker 1: put Jessica a little more at ease. 372 00:18:33,516 --> 00:18:39,396 Speaker 2: He said, look, Jessica, nobody waves, but everybody waves back. Like, 373 00:18:39,476 --> 00:18:41,316 Speaker 2: you have to be the first person to make a move, 374 00:18:41,356 --> 00:18:43,756 Speaker 2: and if you do that, almost one hundred percent of 375 00:18:43,756 --> 00:18:45,916 Speaker 2: the time people will If you wave to someone, they'll 376 00:18:45,916 --> 00:18:47,916 Speaker 2: way back. You say hi to someone, they'll say hi back. 377 00:18:48,516 --> 00:18:51,396 Speaker 1: Jessica began to realize how rarely she put in the 378 00:18:51,436 --> 00:18:53,676 Speaker 1: work to make that all important first move. 379 00:18:54,196 --> 00:18:56,756 Speaker 2: So I feel like in the past, I'd go to 380 00:18:56,796 --> 00:18:59,996 Speaker 2: a party and I'd linger in the hallway or the doorway. 381 00:19:00,156 --> 00:19:02,916 Speaker 2: I wouldn't want to go fully in. I would hover 382 00:19:03,036 --> 00:19:06,316 Speaker 2: near the cheeseboard or the drinks and the kitchen, or 383 00:19:06,596 --> 00:19:07,876 Speaker 2: look at my phone, and then. 384 00:19:07,756 --> 00:19:10,996 Speaker 1: I would probably leave. But if Jessica was committed to 385 00:19:11,036 --> 00:19:14,036 Speaker 1: being the one to open a conversation, what she wondered 386 00:19:14,116 --> 00:19:17,196 Speaker 1: should she start talking about? Are there particular topics that 387 00:19:17,236 --> 00:19:20,996 Speaker 1: are more effective for really connecting people. In the rare 388 00:19:21,036 --> 00:19:23,796 Speaker 1: cases in which Jessica did talk with someone new, she 389 00:19:23,956 --> 00:19:27,436 Speaker 1: usually stuck to the easy stuff, what Nick calls shallow 390 00:19:27,596 --> 00:19:28,436 Speaker 1: or surface talk. 391 00:19:28,676 --> 00:19:31,036 Speaker 2: Surface talk is like we talk about our commutes or 392 00:19:31,076 --> 00:19:33,436 Speaker 2: what we had for dinner, or the weather. And deep 393 00:19:33,476 --> 00:19:36,116 Speaker 2: talk is our hopes and our dreams and our fears, 394 00:19:36,316 --> 00:19:39,276 Speaker 2: and so much of our life is rooted in just 395 00:19:39,276 --> 00:19:40,996 Speaker 2: doing surface talk. You know, you could see the same 396 00:19:40,996 --> 00:19:43,116 Speaker 2: person every day for ten years and you might not 397 00:19:43,276 --> 00:19:45,436 Speaker 2: actually know what's going on with them because you literally 398 00:19:45,476 --> 00:19:47,076 Speaker 2: just talk about very topical things. 399 00:19:47,356 --> 00:19:49,436 Speaker 1: But Nick has found that there's a much more effective 400 00:19:49,436 --> 00:19:52,196 Speaker 1: style of conversation if your goal is to truly get 401 00:19:52,196 --> 00:19:55,036 Speaker 1: to know someone, to truly connect. It's what he and 402 00:19:55,076 --> 00:19:57,516 Speaker 1: other researchers have called deep conversation. 403 00:19:57,916 --> 00:20:01,556 Speaker 2: It's sharing our human experience of struggling and loneliness and 404 00:20:01,596 --> 00:20:02,996 Speaker 2: things that actually bring us together. 405 00:20:03,316 --> 00:20:05,996 Speaker 1: In one study, Nick asked people to engage either in 406 00:20:06,076 --> 00:20:10,036 Speaker 1: shallow talk talking about the weather or their favorite TV shows, 407 00:20:10,156 --> 00:20:13,196 Speaker 1: or in deep talk. And the deep talk conversation starters 408 00:20:13,276 --> 00:20:16,316 Speaker 1: were pretty heavy, things like can you describe a time 409 00:20:16,316 --> 00:20:19,236 Speaker 1: that you cried in front of another person? And if 410 00:20:19,236 --> 00:20:21,676 Speaker 1: you could undo one mistake you've made in your life, 411 00:20:21,836 --> 00:20:22,516 Speaker 1: what would it be? 412 00:20:23,356 --> 00:20:27,036 Speaker 5: And these deep conversations go much better than people expect 413 00:20:27,036 --> 00:20:30,076 Speaker 5: they will, and they're much less awkward than people expect. 414 00:20:30,276 --> 00:20:34,276 Speaker 5: People pretty dramatically underestimate how much they are going to 415 00:20:34,516 --> 00:20:36,436 Speaker 5: enjoy deep conversation. 416 00:20:37,596 --> 00:20:40,436 Speaker 1: Armed with all of Nick's advice, Jessica threw herself into 417 00:20:40,476 --> 00:20:44,076 Speaker 1: the conversational deep end. She signed up for a professional 418 00:20:44,116 --> 00:20:46,956 Speaker 1: networking event, and rather than hiding away in the corner 419 00:20:47,036 --> 00:20:50,116 Speaker 1: like she'd normally do, she immediately headed over to a 420 00:20:50,116 --> 00:20:54,396 Speaker 1: group of people, started chatting and, going against all her instincts, 421 00:20:54,636 --> 00:20:56,076 Speaker 1: took the conversation deeper. 422 00:20:56,476 --> 00:20:59,636 Speaker 2: I felt like people really responded to that, and they 423 00:20:59,636 --> 00:21:02,196 Speaker 2: would sort of go, oh, this person's here. 424 00:21:02,036 --> 00:21:05,636 Speaker 1: To be real, to be honest, to actually make a connection. 425 00:21:06,276 --> 00:21:09,156 Speaker 1: Jessica went from feeling like a shy wallflower to the 426 00:21:09,196 --> 00:21:11,836 Speaker 1: life of the party. I could visibly see the difference 427 00:21:11,836 --> 00:21:14,556 Speaker 1: in people's faces. They were having that dopamine hit two 428 00:21:14,796 --> 00:21:18,116 Speaker 1: because we were connecting, we were laughing, we were bonding 429 00:21:18,156 --> 00:21:21,516 Speaker 1: over something, and I realized that we all have the 430 00:21:21,556 --> 00:21:25,916 Speaker 1: power to steer the conversation into something deeper. But Jessica 431 00:21:25,996 --> 00:21:28,716 Speaker 1: knew that talking was only half the battle. She had 432 00:21:28,756 --> 00:21:32,116 Speaker 1: succeeded in initiating deeper conversation, but it couldn't be a 433 00:21:32,156 --> 00:21:32,796 Speaker 1: one way thing. 434 00:21:33,156 --> 00:21:34,956 Speaker 2: You need to make a person feel like they're being 435 00:21:34,996 --> 00:21:37,876 Speaker 2: listened to, not just waiting for my turn to talk 436 00:21:37,956 --> 00:21:40,436 Speaker 2: or my turn to share my story, but actually listening 437 00:21:40,516 --> 00:21:42,996 Speaker 2: to them and being a part of what they're saying. 438 00:21:43,316 --> 00:21:46,836 Speaker 2: People like feeling paid attention to it. Really is this 439 00:21:46,956 --> 00:21:50,316 Speaker 2: underrated magic skill that we can all have, and that 440 00:21:50,356 --> 00:21:52,716 Speaker 2: really transforms how they treat you because they like being 441 00:21:52,756 --> 00:21:53,316 Speaker 2: treated that way. 442 00:21:53,476 --> 00:21:56,996 Speaker 1: They like being treated special. Jessica left the event feeling 443 00:21:57,036 --> 00:21:59,356 Speaker 1: over the moon. She had proven to herself that she 444 00:21:59,356 --> 00:22:02,236 Speaker 1: could not only talk to strangers, but also that it 445 00:22:02,276 --> 00:22:05,636 Speaker 1: felt great. Her experiences inspired her to go even more 446 00:22:05,676 --> 00:22:07,636 Speaker 1: hardcore in her quest to extrovert. 447 00:22:07,956 --> 00:22:10,476 Speaker 2: I'm very much at all enough person, So I thought, 448 00:22:10,476 --> 00:22:13,556 Speaker 2: if I'm going to do this insane year of torture 449 00:22:14,036 --> 00:22:16,876 Speaker 2: and extroverting, then I'm not going to leave anything out. 450 00:22:17,276 --> 00:22:20,876 Speaker 1: Exactly what torture was Jessica planning for her introverted self. 451 00:22:21,476 --> 00:22:23,876 Speaker 2: It felt like, Okay, if I can survive that, then 452 00:22:23,916 --> 00:22:24,956 Speaker 2: I can survive anything. 453 00:22:25,356 --> 00:22:28,236 Speaker 1: You'll find out when the Happiness Lab returns in a moment. 454 00:22:38,476 --> 00:22:40,796 Speaker 2: I think. I always thought that to be a good 455 00:22:40,796 --> 00:22:43,436 Speaker 2: public speaker, you need to have total confidence when you 456 00:22:43,436 --> 00:22:45,996 Speaker 2: get on stage and before you even do the thing. 457 00:22:46,316 --> 00:22:48,796 Speaker 1: All if you're an introvert. Jessica Pan had always hated 458 00:22:48,796 --> 00:22:49,316 Speaker 1: speaking in. 459 00:22:49,276 --> 00:22:53,036 Speaker 2: Public when actually it's so obvious, but you have to 460 00:22:53,036 --> 00:22:54,796 Speaker 2: be scared to do it. And then when you survive, 461 00:22:54,996 --> 00:22:58,516 Speaker 2: that's where that confidence comes from, because you survive doing 462 00:22:58,556 --> 00:22:59,236 Speaker 2: the scary thing. 463 00:23:00,356 --> 00:23:02,396 Speaker 1: So for the pinnacle of her ear of acting like 464 00:23:02,436 --> 00:23:05,396 Speaker 1: an extrovert, she decided to push herself to the limit. 465 00:23:05,636 --> 00:23:08,036 Speaker 2: And I thought, okay, So the final step in this 466 00:23:08,276 --> 00:23:13,156 Speaker 2: is to perform for an audience where they're often encouraged 467 00:23:13,156 --> 00:23:13,796 Speaker 2: to heckle you. 468 00:23:14,276 --> 00:23:17,556 Speaker 1: Jessica was going to try stand up comedy. She signed 469 00:23:17,596 --> 00:23:19,796 Speaker 1: up for a comedy course, but when it came time 470 00:23:19,836 --> 00:23:23,356 Speaker 1: for the first class, she was terrified, so terrified that 471 00:23:23,396 --> 00:23:25,876 Speaker 1: she climbed into bed and assumed the fetal position. 472 00:23:26,196 --> 00:23:28,796 Speaker 2: Is that not what other people do? That feels really 473 00:23:28,876 --> 00:23:29,476 Speaker 2: natural to me. 474 00:23:29,596 --> 00:23:32,996 Speaker 1: Hoping somehow to muster the necessary courage. But that first 475 00:23:33,036 --> 00:23:35,636 Speaker 1: comedy class went well, and in a few weeks it 476 00:23:35,676 --> 00:23:37,156 Speaker 1: was time to perform for real. 477 00:23:37,636 --> 00:23:40,556 Speaker 2: The first show I did was with my other fellow 478 00:23:40,556 --> 00:23:44,876 Speaker 2: classmates and our friends and our partners and this pub 479 00:23:45,156 --> 00:23:48,676 Speaker 2: downstairs in central London, and I was so nervous. I 480 00:23:48,716 --> 00:23:50,756 Speaker 2: felt like, I don't know, I felt like I was 481 00:23:50,796 --> 00:23:52,236 Speaker 2: on fire or something. 482 00:23:52,156 --> 00:23:54,876 Speaker 1: And in a way, Jessica was on fire. She got 483 00:23:54,916 --> 00:23:55,796 Speaker 1: a ton of laughs. 484 00:23:56,156 --> 00:23:59,516 Speaker 2: The first performance went really well. My friend and I decided, 485 00:23:59,596 --> 00:24:02,196 Speaker 2: let's go to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, which is like 486 00:24:02,476 --> 00:24:06,436 Speaker 2: the Epicenter of comedy and let's perform on an open 487 00:24:06,476 --> 00:24:06,916 Speaker 2: mic night. 488 00:24:07,156 --> 00:24:08,996 Speaker 1: Performing in front of a small crowd of friends and 489 00:24:09,156 --> 00:24:12,156 Speaker 1: supporters at a low key gig isn't quite the same 490 00:24:12,196 --> 00:24:15,236 Speaker 1: as getting up on stage at the premier comedy festival 491 00:24:15,276 --> 00:24:15,796 Speaker 1: in the world. 492 00:24:16,116 --> 00:24:17,516 Speaker 2: It did not go as well. 493 00:24:18,636 --> 00:24:21,996 Speaker 1: Jessica now admits that she was a bit unprepared for Edinburgh. 494 00:24:22,236 --> 00:24:23,276 Speaker 1: In that particular act. 495 00:24:23,596 --> 00:24:26,756 Speaker 2: I talk about living in England and loving living in England, 496 00:24:26,916 --> 00:24:30,556 Speaker 2: and I forgot that Edinburgh is in Scotland, and I 497 00:24:30,636 --> 00:24:32,876 Speaker 2: was like, yeah, loving and I love it here. And 498 00:24:32,996 --> 00:24:34,996 Speaker 2: it was like an audience full of Scottish people who 499 00:24:34,996 --> 00:24:37,756 Speaker 2: were like boo, like, get off the stage, You're not 500 00:24:37,796 --> 00:24:41,836 Speaker 2: in England And for a delicate, shy introvert, that's enough 501 00:24:41,836 --> 00:24:45,436 Speaker 2: to kill you. But I didn't actually die. 502 00:24:45,876 --> 00:24:48,836 Speaker 1: Jessica had made it through her year of living extrovertedly. 503 00:24:49,436 --> 00:24:52,716 Speaker 1: She'd embarrassed herself on a tube train, talked candidly with 504 00:24:52,756 --> 00:24:56,476 Speaker 1: strangers at parties, taken a comedy class, and had bombed 505 00:24:56,476 --> 00:24:59,276 Speaker 1: in front of an angry crowd at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. 506 00:24:59,916 --> 00:25:03,436 Speaker 1: But in spite of it all, she'd still emerged unscathed. 507 00:25:03,876 --> 00:25:06,156 Speaker 2: The lesson from the year is that I learned a lot, 508 00:25:06,236 --> 00:25:08,356 Speaker 2: and nothing really bad happened to me. 509 00:25:08,756 --> 00:25:11,036 Speaker 1: Jessica hasn't quit her day job to become a stand 510 00:25:11,116 --> 00:25:13,796 Speaker 1: up regular, but she does still practice many of the 511 00:25:13,796 --> 00:25:16,636 Speaker 1: social skills she learned during her year long experiment. 512 00:25:16,956 --> 00:25:18,956 Speaker 2: I would say one of the biggest lessons from the 513 00:25:19,036 --> 00:25:22,436 Speaker 2: year was to go deeper and be vulnerable and be 514 00:25:22,556 --> 00:25:25,236 Speaker 2: willing to do it. First, most people want to talk 515 00:25:25,276 --> 00:25:28,236 Speaker 2: to you, and most people are nicer than we imagine 516 00:25:28,236 --> 00:25:30,356 Speaker 2: in our heads, because I think we build up these big, 517 00:25:30,436 --> 00:25:33,916 Speaker 2: scary judgments that oftentimes don't even exist. 518 00:25:34,676 --> 00:25:37,836 Speaker 1: Jessica now uses a series of go to social hacks 519 00:25:37,916 --> 00:25:41,076 Speaker 1: to overcome her introversion, little rules that she puts into 520 00:25:41,116 --> 00:25:44,596 Speaker 1: effect whenever she feels daunted by a scary situation. The 521 00:25:44,676 --> 00:25:48,116 Speaker 1: first involves breaking her usual cycle of avoidance. If she's 522 00:25:48,156 --> 00:25:51,196 Speaker 1: invited to a party, she goes, and she even tries 523 00:25:51,356 --> 00:25:52,196 Speaker 1: to show up early. 524 00:25:52,436 --> 00:25:54,996 Speaker 2: If you show up late, everybody looks like they're already 525 00:25:54,996 --> 00:25:57,116 Speaker 2: in those little clicks and circles, and you feel like 526 00:25:57,156 --> 00:25:59,956 Speaker 2: you can't join in, and it's so intimidating. But if 527 00:25:59,996 --> 00:26:02,276 Speaker 2: you're the first person there, like the second person there, 528 00:26:02,356 --> 00:26:03,236 Speaker 2: it's not as scary. 529 00:26:03,596 --> 00:26:07,116 Speaker 1: But Jessica also warns that you shouldn't underestimate the discomfort 530 00:26:07,156 --> 00:26:10,516 Speaker 1: you might initially experience doing something, and this means you 531 00:26:10,556 --> 00:26:13,556 Speaker 1: need to give yourself a little self compassion and patience. 532 00:26:13,916 --> 00:26:15,316 Speaker 2: You know, when you go swimming and you get in 533 00:26:15,316 --> 00:26:17,996 Speaker 2: the water, it's absolutely freezing, but then your body adjusts 534 00:26:18,036 --> 00:26:19,996 Speaker 2: to it and it doesn't feel so bad. I mean 535 00:26:20,036 --> 00:26:23,116 Speaker 2: that's a cliche metaphor, but I think it really works. 536 00:26:23,156 --> 00:26:25,756 Speaker 2: Like after you break the ice with one person, it's 537 00:26:25,796 --> 00:26:27,556 Speaker 2: not as scary with the second one, and it's not 538 00:26:27,636 --> 00:26:29,276 Speaker 2: scary with the third one, and by the fourth you 539 00:26:29,316 --> 00:26:30,476 Speaker 2: know you're the life of the party. 540 00:26:30,796 --> 00:26:33,596 Speaker 1: Jessica has learned to appreciate the benefits of social connection, 541 00:26:34,116 --> 00:26:37,436 Speaker 1: but the extroverted habits she now engages in regularly haven't 542 00:26:37,476 --> 00:26:39,476 Speaker 1: fully dismantled her true personality. 543 00:26:39,876 --> 00:26:42,956 Speaker 2: I'm definitely still an introvert, like I definitely prefer to 544 00:26:43,036 --> 00:26:45,076 Speaker 2: be at home or in a small group of people. 545 00:26:45,276 --> 00:26:47,636 Speaker 2: But I now know I can give a speech, I 546 00:26:47,676 --> 00:26:48,756 Speaker 2: can talk to a stranger. 547 00:26:48,956 --> 00:26:51,356 Speaker 1: And that hard won social confidence that came from this 548 00:26:51,476 --> 00:26:54,476 Speaker 1: year long experiment has had a big impact on Jessica's 549 00:26:54,516 --> 00:26:54,956 Speaker 1: well being. 550 00:26:55,396 --> 00:26:59,636 Speaker 2: I had more friends, I had less anxiety, I you 551 00:26:59,676 --> 00:27:01,676 Speaker 2: know in my neighborhood. Now I talk to tons of people, 552 00:27:01,676 --> 00:27:03,956 Speaker 2: I recognize lots of people. It feels like this small 553 00:27:03,956 --> 00:27:07,476 Speaker 2: little village in central London. I was a lot happier 554 00:27:07,516 --> 00:27:08,236 Speaker 2: by the end of the year. 555 00:27:08,356 --> 00:27:12,036 Speaker 1: When Jessica first encountered the extroverted psychologist Nick Eppley, she 556 00:27:12,156 --> 00:27:14,076 Speaker 1: was floored by the ease with which he talked to 557 00:27:14,116 --> 00:27:17,196 Speaker 1: complete strangers and how quickly he struck up friendships with 558 00:27:17,276 --> 00:27:20,436 Speaker 1: the workers he met in stores and cafes. Jessica didn't 559 00:27:20,476 --> 00:27:22,636 Speaker 1: think she'd ever be that comfortable in getting to know 560 00:27:22,676 --> 00:27:25,956 Speaker 1: strangers herself, but a year into her experiment, she had 561 00:27:25,956 --> 00:27:29,156 Speaker 1: really changed. A barista in her local coffee shop was 562 00:27:29,156 --> 00:27:30,596 Speaker 1: one of the first to notice. 563 00:27:30,756 --> 00:27:33,036 Speaker 2: And he said, I remember when he used to come 564 00:27:33,036 --> 00:27:34,756 Speaker 2: in here, like a long time ago. And I was like, yeah, 565 00:27:34,756 --> 00:27:36,716 Speaker 2: I remember that too. And he said, you didn't talk 566 00:27:36,756 --> 00:27:39,676 Speaker 2: it to us ever, like anybody, and I was like, yes, 567 00:27:39,836 --> 00:27:42,196 Speaker 2: that's correct. And he's like, now you're like friends with 568 00:27:42,236 --> 00:27:44,636 Speaker 2: each other and I was like, yeah, exactly. And you know, 569 00:27:44,676 --> 00:27:47,356 Speaker 2: I didn't say here's the book and here's why, but 570 00:27:47,556 --> 00:27:50,716 Speaker 2: he had noticed it. And it was really strange to 571 00:27:50,796 --> 00:27:53,916 Speaker 2: be perceived as an extrovert and by the end, I 572 00:27:53,996 --> 00:27:56,396 Speaker 2: just thought, I don't even recognize myself. And I don't 573 00:27:56,436 --> 00:27:59,116 Speaker 2: mean like that I was pretending to be someone else 574 00:27:59,276 --> 00:28:02,356 Speaker 2: or that I wasn't being true to myself, But it 575 00:28:02,396 --> 00:28:05,676 Speaker 2: was more like, I haven't let these fears and anxieties 576 00:28:05,796 --> 00:28:08,996 Speaker 2: shackle me to the person I've always been. I felt 577 00:28:08,996 --> 00:28:10,796 Speaker 2: like I had grown and I had changed. 578 00:28:11,916 --> 00:28:14,076 Speaker 1: The science shows that we can all enjoy the well 579 00:28:14,076 --> 00:28:16,956 Speaker 1: being boost that comes from social connection, no matter what 580 00:28:17,036 --> 00:28:20,636 Speaker 1: our personality type is. But to get those social connection benefits, 581 00:28:20,876 --> 00:28:23,196 Speaker 1: we need to actually connect with the people around us, 582 00:28:23,596 --> 00:28:26,116 Speaker 1: whether we know them well or not. So why not 583 00:28:26,196 --> 00:28:29,196 Speaker 1: push yourself and get a little more social You could 584 00:28:29,236 --> 00:28:32,196 Speaker 1: talk to a local cashier or a barista, or the 585 00:28:32,236 --> 00:28:34,476 Speaker 1: person sitting next to you on your commute, and when 586 00:28:34,516 --> 00:28:37,516 Speaker 1: you dive into conversation, try to push past the shallow 587 00:28:37,556 --> 00:28:40,356 Speaker 1: stuff and get to topics that feel a little deeper. 588 00:28:41,076 --> 00:28:45,076 Speaker 1: And remember psychologist Nick Epley's insight that not everyone waves, 589 00:28:45,316 --> 00:28:48,996 Speaker 1: but people usually wave back. I hope this episode has 590 00:28:48,996 --> 00:28:51,556 Speaker 1: given you some tips on how to extrovert a bit more, 591 00:28:52,076 --> 00:28:55,276 Speaker 1: even and perhaps especially if it doesn't come to you naturally, 592 00:28:55,996 --> 00:28:58,116 Speaker 1: And I hope you'll join me again next week. For 593 00:28:58,236 --> 00:29:01,196 Speaker 1: more in our series on getting more Social, next time 594 00:29:01,316 --> 00:29:13,516 Speaker 1: on the Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie Santos. The 595 00:29:13,556 --> 00:29:16,036 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab is co written and produced by Ryan Dilly. 596 00:29:16,436 --> 00:29:20,196 Speaker 1: Our original music was composed by Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, 597 00:29:20,316 --> 00:29:23,916 Speaker 1: mixing and mastering by Evan Viola. Jess Shane and Alice 598 00:29:23,956 --> 00:29:27,676 Speaker 1: find offered additional production support. Special thanks to my agent, 599 00:29:27,716 --> 00:29:30,276 Speaker 1: Ben Davis and all of the Pushkin crew. The Happiness 600 00:29:30,356 --> 00:29:32,676 Speaker 1: Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries and me, 601 00:29:32,956 --> 00:29:36,996 Speaker 1: Doctor Laurie Santos.