WEBVTT - Booker T of the MG's: Time Is Tight 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:14.240 Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.200 all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:19.320 which you can find a link to in the show 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:23.079 notes for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:28.280 in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect all right, 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:32.480 enjoy the episode. A few songs hit quite like this. 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:37.280 Green Onions was recorded in two takes in nineteen sixty 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:39.680 two by book Or T and the MG's. They were 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:43.080 the house band for Stax Records in Memphis. This song 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:46.360 was originally the B side, but once it started making 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:48.720 the rounds on radio, it was quickly re released as 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:50.920 the A side, going down as one of the most 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:55.160 recognizable instrumentals ever. Book Or T, along with the guitar 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.960 Steve Cropper, drummer Al Jackson Junior, and bassist Louis Steinberg 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:01.760 or depending on the y, Donald Duck Dunne, went on 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:03.840 to record hits like Sitting on the Dock of the Bay, 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:06.640 Hold On Him Coming, and soul Man, and then the 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:10.399 process defined the sound of Southern soul, which was way 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:12.640 more gritty than the polished sound coming out of Motown. 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:16.440 Over the last sixty years, Booker T has been writing, producing, 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:19.319 arranging and playing with some of your favorite artists like 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:23.160 Otis Reading, Neil Young, Willie Nelson, Bill Withers, and of 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:25.319 course has been sampled in hip hop like a James 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.440 Brown drummer, songs by the Roots, Fou Tang Clan and others. 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:31.120 He wrote about it in his memoir Time Is Tight 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:34.240 My Life. Note by note, Booker T sat with Bruce 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:36.040 Hadlim in front of a ham and C three organ 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.560 so he could talk and play us through his career. 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:45.399 This is Broken Record season three Liner notes for the 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:52.600 digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Bruce Hadlim speaking with 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:56.080 Booker T from Bridge Studio in Brooklyn. I do want 0:01:56.080 --> 0:02:00.960 to start today talking about your new book, Time Is Tight, Yeah, 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:06.280 which is fabulous for many many reasons, and I think 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:12.200 everyone should read. Thank you. What interested me particularly was, 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:16.480 you know, there's this perception people have of I think, 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:21.840 particularly Southern musicians, soul musicians, that you guys learned everything 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:28.519 in the church or singing on street corners. You were 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:34.440 a serious music academic, You studied very hard from an 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:39.799 early age. How did that? Why did that happen? Well, 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.919 I think your first two elements of the formula are 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:50.720 exactly correct the church I was. I remember singing Jesus 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.160 Loves Me as a little boy in Sunday School and 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:56.280 my first solo was in church. And then as I 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:58.359 grew up a little earlier some of my friends. I 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:02.079 met Maurice White and sixth grade and David Porter in 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:06.079 ninth grade and they were singing and do up groups 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:10.920 on the street corner. And I came from a background 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:14.960 where my grandfather built a school down in Holly Springs, Mississippi, 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:18.720 and he mandated that his children go to school, first 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.040 his school, and then that they go to high school 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:22.800 and that they go to college. So all his kids, 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:27.760 including my father, went father graduated m I and became 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.320 a math teacher, and he wanted all his grandkids to 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:32.040 do the same thing. So I was one of those. 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:34.720 So it was predetermined that I was going to study 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:38.520 and go to college. And I saved up nine hundred 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:41.640 dollars on my paper out to that effect. Studied Latin 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:45.160 in the ninth grade, so you know. And the music 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:49.440 was came from my mother's side, the classical music. My 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:52.880 grandmother was a piano teacher. She had a piano taught 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:56.480 my mother. My mother played Let's WC. Chopin in the 0:03:56.520 --> 0:04:00.280 house and that that music affected me. So I got 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:03.120 it from a lot of different angles, including those first 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:07.840 ones you mentioned. When did you realize you're studying music? 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:11.040 You started, I think with a clarinet. The clarinet was 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:13.160 the first one I owned. The first one I started 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:18.039 with was oboe, the first formal instrument. But before that, 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:21.240 as a little boy, had a ukulele that got me 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:23.880 into guitar. So kind I kind of see myself as 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:26.360 a guitar player. You see yourself as a guitar player. 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:28.960 Now I pick it up first more usually when I'm 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:31.280 writing a song. When did you know music was going 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:36.159 to be your life? As a young boy, started hearing 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:42.520 music in my mind since I can remember various sounds 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:46.479 and melodies and and I didn't know what to call them, 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:50.240 you know, And that I think was the challenges I 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:53.160 grew older, what to call everything. So that's where the 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:58.480 formal education came in, you know, taking piano lessons, organ lessons, 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.240 theory lessons. In high schoo I had to put a 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:03.800 name to everything, you know, so I could communicate with 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:07.279 the outside world, you know. Yeah, and these are you know, 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:10.040 this is pre integration your school. You went to an 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:13.599 all black school, went to an African American school, saying 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:18.200 in the choir in the first grade at port of 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:23.040 Junior High School, which was all blacks, no whites, and 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:26.800 you but the music education was really intense, and you 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:30.279 took theory lessons after school. That was in nineteenth grade, 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:34.720 starting in about nineteenth fifty nine. And then there's this 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:39.560 amazing passage in your book where you are as is 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:43.360 years later, you're working at stacks. I think you're doing 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:47.200 the arrangement for when something is wrong with my Baby, 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:51.640 the great Sam and Dave song. And I think the 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:53.880 next thing that happens is you're trying to figure out 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:57.080 your your college at that point in Indiana, you're trying 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:59.120 to figure out what you're going to play for your 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:03.640 trombone recite. Yeah. Yeah, those were coincide or incidental. So 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.599 you were flying back and forth stack sessions from and 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:09.640 you were getting an education at one of the great 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.560 music colleges in the country. I think you mentioned a 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:16.760 great instance. I'll play you know that's a great you know, 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:21.040 combination of a church feeling, you know, the way that 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:24.919 the way the notes move in the base and in 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:30.000 the classical combination of those influences in my life, but 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:33.359 the church I think was the main, the strongest influence 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:38.200 in my musical makeup. One of the other influences you mentioned, 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:40.200 and this is fascinating to me, and I'd love you 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:42.880 to walk me through. It was when you wrote Green 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:46.200 Onions and I think you were probably nineteen or something 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:51.880 seen seventeen, but you said it's because you'd studied back counterpoint. 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.960 I wanted to go to UCLA or Indiana University, so 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:58.880 I had to pass a theory I had to pass. 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.159 As you're to go to India University. They were going 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:05.240 to ask questions about the basics of music. I was 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:10.080 music put together. So that's where my theory class started. 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:13.560 You know, the scale, twelve notes in the scale, and 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:22.880 what are they the third? And what are the poor changes? Those? 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:27.560 The way I moved those notes were basically dictated by J. S. 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.880 Bo contrepurnal movement. You know, it makes sense if we 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:33.560 didn't think about it, but it's it's it's ingrained in 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:35.840 our Western society. What I just played, that's the way 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:46.360 the notes moved other countries or whatever. So in figuring 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:51.120 that out, I m this, what if a note went, 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:57.440 That's where the Blues came in, changing this from a 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:01.840 major third to a minor third. That that third one, 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:06.160 two three, what about the minor three? So that's when 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:14.120 Greenlandians came from instead of And I thought, what if 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:18.000 the third was a minor and what if the top 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:21.480 moved down like a bat because back can counterpoint the 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:25.920 top exactly, it moves, it moves in the opposite the 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:28.800 bottom moves up. I mean the bottom moves up while 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:37.920 the top moves down. Wow. So I kind of played 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:39.640 that on the piano. I thought that sounds kind of cool, 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:41.520 you know. And then the changes, of course, are just 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:43.839 regular blues changes that we played all the time. You 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:48.520 go from that to the B flat and then back 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:50.960 to the one. So it's the twelve bar blues basically, 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:54.400 but it has this for its second chord instead of 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:57.920 I think it would feel different if I played it 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.599 like that. So that's basically the history of Health Queens 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:02.880 came about. And was there a particular box song that 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:05.200 inspired that or just it was just generally it's just 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:08.000 contrapuntal rules, just the rules that we learned, you know. 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:11.480 And that's the major scale. Um, and I want to 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:14.920 go back to your education and more about Memphis. But 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:17.320 there's one other great example you mentioned in the book. 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:21.360 There's many great examples, but you wrote the great Albert 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:25.480 King's song Born under a Bad Sign, and you said 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:29.319 you picked a particular key for that. Yeah, yeah, I 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.840 don't know where that came from. That you know that 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:34.840 that door opened that we gotta call. We being myself 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.480 and my partner William Bell, that we were We were 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:40.920 staff producers at the time and we were responsible for 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:43.839 recording Albert King, and he was coming down the next day. 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:45.959 So we went into my den the other night before 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:54.320 Friday night to write something him and uh, that came 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:57.600 into my mind. And William has been working on the 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:01.240 lyrics content born under a Bad Sign. They've been working 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:03.760 on that for himself. So the two came together that 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:08.000 night before. But then, you know, at Indiana, I had 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:10.640 learned about, you know, the urgency that you could put 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:15.079 into certain keys, that that we're we're not inherent in 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:19.640 some keys. Music is a just say music music. Music, 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:24.240 music is parties out for our atmosphere and some some 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:28.400 some keys have more emotional content for uh than others. 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:31.920 So I went to C flat minor for Albert you know, 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:37.359 a D flat D flat the same key, so that's yeah, yeah, 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:42.559 so this this is different. That's the Albert's key yea. 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:44.520 And the way he played his guy, so he pulled 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:46.640 his strings, you know on those keys, and we got 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:51.680 this tension, you know, and this this emotional necessity out 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:53.280 of this song, and it just makes it just playing 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:55.240 it right here now makes you feel kind of differently. 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.520 It's like something ominous is is is you know, and 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:00.520 you think of it, and that came from the key 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:06.559 that came from that game, from going from here to here. Yeah, 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:14.200 and you mentioned that you like C sharp Wagner, Yeah, Chopin, 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:17.000 you know, they were they played in those keys. They 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:20.360 didn't mind writing six sharps, you know, they made the 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:24.439 musicians playing those keys. And but it had this this uh, 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.880 this feeling, you know, this emotion you know, and and 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:30.880 the blues and that key it's just unbelievable, you know. 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.920 To me, it's not a common it's not a common 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:37.199 key for for blues though well, I don't know. It 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.120 was perfect for this and for Albert. I think a 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:43.560 lot of blues musicians when I was in Memphis played 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:46.520 in the in the simpler keys, you know, F and 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.480 and maybe C or g minor. But but when you 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:54.000 go to the monar keys like that a flat uh 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:59.280 G sharp manner, there's a certain there's another element that 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:01.360 comes in. It's I guess it's the way that universe 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:04.200 is put together, the makeup of the Adams or something 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:08.920 as something it is, so it's more more emphatic. Yeah, 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:10.959 and so the born on her bad sides and C 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:15.640 sharp minor. Wow, the same way as so Pen's concertos. 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:19.080 And it was very great, good key for Albert. He 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.000 just killed it. Now he was a guitar player, so 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.000 it's a little easier to move. And he's also a 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:26.400 right handed guitar player, kind of like Jimi Hendrix, so 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:28.800 it wasn't such an issue. You know, left hand and 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.560 guitar players have to push the strings, but a right 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:33.960 hand and guitar player like Albert can pull the strings. 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:36.960 So he had more strength, more physical strength over there 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:39.679 right on the upper strings. So he just he just 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:41.760 killed it. It was it was. It was a great experience. 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:45.480 Oh amazing. Yeah, I want to go back to We 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:49.600 talked about severe academic background, but then you started playing 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:54.280 along Beal Street. Now people now know Beal Street because 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:58.160 of the of the Baldwin book and they just made 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:02.360 it into a movie. But it was this famous street 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:05.440 in Memphis where you're from. Can you tell me what 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:07.360 it was like playing in those clubs back then you 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:09.720 were just a kid. Yeah, I was right off of 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:12.760 Beal Street on Hernando, just about a couple of doors 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:16.800 down at the Flamingo Room upstairs on the second floor 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:20.120 was where they were the only ones that actually let 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.440 me in. Cliff Miller was the owner of the place 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:25.240 and it was his place, so he brought me in. 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:29.480 And I couldn't get into the club Handy, which was 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:33.559 on the other side of Bell that was Sunbeam Mitchell's club. 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:37.320 I was too young, and he I guess, I guess 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:38.840 he could have broken the rules that had me in, 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.520 But but Cliff was the one that was interested in me. 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:43.960 He brought me in to play bass, and I played 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:48.000 bass and Jane Bowles Miller's ban and William Mitchell's ban. 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:50.959 How how long had you played the bass at that point? 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.680 I picked up the string bass at Book of Washington 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:56.680 Junior High School. They had a bass and I played 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.520 some bass and in the combo there. Yeah, by the way, 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:01.400 this is probably be a good time to pause and say, 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:04.079 your name really is Booker T. My name is. My 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:06.520 name is Booker T. Jones. I was named after my father, 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.319 Booker T. Jones Senior, who was named after Booker T. Washington, 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:15.480 who was an educator and uh built built a college Tuskegee. 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:19.480 I was a Tuskegee. Uh. Yeah, So and you attended 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.400 Booker T. Washington High Schooker T. Washington High School? Yes, 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.000 I did. Okay. So while you're so, you were playing 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:26.960 in these clubs? Were they rough clubs? Was it was 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:29.640 it strange for a kid to be in there? Yes? 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.760 It was unsafe. Uh. I mean there was a lot 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.320 going on on Bill Street, you know, Bille Street was 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:42.440 everything from you know, prostitution and whiskey running and there's 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:44.600 a lot of stuff going on down there. And my parents, 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.320 but my parents picked out a couple of musicians they 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.520 trusted to watch over me. They picked out Floyd Newman 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:52.640 to take me home at night and take me over 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.280 to the club. He hated it, but my dad had 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.200 been as algebra teacher, but he did it anyway. So 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:00.360 your dad had been his age. He had listen to 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.880 your dad. Yeah. Uh, your dad is uh, you know, 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:06.640 he's a high school teacher. Yeah, he's always in a 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:09.520 white shirt and tie. Yeah, and he'd been he thinks 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:11.880 it's okay for you to play these clubs. Well, you 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:15.040 know my dad, I appreciated. My dad supported my musical 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:17.920 passion and if I wanted to do it, he sat out. 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:20.560 He sat out in club side on so many clubs 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.280 out on the countryside while I played, and he just 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:27.120 supported and brought me the instruments, and he was my benefactor. 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:29.320 You know, is there there may be a picture in 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:31.600 the book of him and his algebra class with his 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:34.040 white shirt and tie and his and his pointer, you know, 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:38.160 teaching kids to to uh, to calculate. Yeah, he seems 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:41.480 like just an amazing character. He was. I don't know 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:43.120 if I wouldn't be here without him. I mean, he 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.400 bought the first clarinet, and he just he just you know, 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.440 took me and put Maurice White's drums in the back 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:51.640 of his car and Frank Easley's based fit all that 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:53.600 stuff in his car and took us to the clubs. 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:57.960 And yeah, maybe he may be the nicest algebra teacher 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:00.600 who ever lived. He was, he was grade. A lot 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:04.200 of people loved him. Yeah, And then at sixteen, you started. 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:07.000 It wasn't called stacks then it was called satellite. But 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.600 you did your first session. Yeah, I was fifteen. I 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.560 was in tenth grade and the guy Floyd Newman I 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:15.560 was telling you about was there baritone sax player, but 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:17.800 he was also a high school teacher, so he couldn't 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:20.520 make this particular session because he was in school. And 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.680 David Porter came and got me out of school my 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.880 Alzebrath class or tenth grade Alzabra class to play for 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:30.920 Rufus and Carlin Thomas played baritone sacks on their calls 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:34.640 I Love You. Their first record its stacks and yeah, 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:36.880 and that's got a lot of baritone sacks that record. 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:39.200 It does I play through the whole song? How many 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:41.640 tanks did you do? Oh? I don't know. That was 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.240 a pretty We didn't I take too much time to 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:46.640 record that. That was closer being a first take, I 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:49.200 think something like that. And then did you get more 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:51.400 sessions after that? I did? I did. I took the 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.640 opportunity to tell them that I could play piano, because 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:56.480 you know, it was it was Floyd Newman's job to 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:59.720 play saxophone over baritone sacks. I couldn't take it. Yeah, 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:03.480 I like how you cut school to do it. Yeah, 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.720 he's a teacher. He can't cut, he can't cut glass. Yeah. 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:08.160 So I was there and I told him I could 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.200 play piano, and I got the job working after school 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:13.680 as a session player right after that, when they found 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:15.399 out I could play piano. Do you remember some of 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.560 your other early sessions. Yeah. The first one I remember 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:22.440 was Prince Comedy. Oh my goodness, what was that song? Yeah, 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:24.960 it was a great blue song. I'm coming home, I'm 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:28.359 going home, Prince Comedy. Yeah, yeah, that was the first. 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:30.360 And I played the oil and solo on that one. 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:34.080 That was a blue song. Now you you are sitting 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:37.600 in front of a B three Hammond B three, and 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:39.840 we've got the speaker in the other room. I think 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:41.520 this is a C three. This is a C three 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:44.160 because it's got the wooden sides over here. Okay, now 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:46.840 I was I was just told this. The C three 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:49.760 was the church version. Yeah, so that you couldn't see 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:54.200 you couldn't see the organist legs. Yeah and that Yeah, yeah, 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:57.879 it was heavier. It looks better. Yeah. Now you you 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:00.080 talk a lot about the B three year the C 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:04.800 three Hammond, that it could make any sound you imagined. 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:35.439 What what did you mean by that? Well, you have 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:39.040 drawbars you can pull out and mix the tones. And no, 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:40.919 I don't know of any other instrument that you can 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:44.680 do that. Onse, I don't can't think of any other 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:46.919 instrument that you can change like that. You can't do 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:49.000 that with the old boy. He can't do it. Maybe 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:50.840 guitarists can do it, but I don't know if they 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:53.320 can do it as quickly. Right, and the middle you 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:56.879 just heard that was that was about five different sounds 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:00.359 there from from one note. There was there one particular 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:02.359 sound that grabbed you? Or was it the variety that 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:04.600 got you? The variety? I mean, that's what my teacher 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:06.560 told me when I when I saw the thing. Her 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:08.359 name was missus Cole, and I tried to get the 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:10.000 lessons on and she said, you know, you can make 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:12.159 any sound you want. This sentiment, you can make it 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:16.119 sound like a big full orchestra or clarinet or you know. 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:18.080 So it was what she told me. It was the 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:20.800 opening up of those possibilities. I think that sucked me in. 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:24.720 And was she did she teach you gospel style or 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:28.959 did she teach you know? She started with this at 0:19:29.040 --> 0:20:01.040 my first lesson with her well tempered clavier. Yes, Bob, 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:04.640 if he lived long enough, he might have written green onions. 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:08.360 He would have. He was on inspired, dude. Man. We'll 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:10.240 be back with more of a conversation with Booker T. 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:17.000 After the break. We're back with more from Booker T. 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:23.199 When did you start arranging and writing at stacks? That 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:28.920 started with working on David Porter and Isaac Hayes's song 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:33.960 Salmon Dave songs Oldis reading songs. They gave me the 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:39.320 freedom to change their songs around the way I heard them. 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:43.120 I worked on Baby, they had written in a different way, 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:44.960 and I gave it kind of a motown field. I 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:49.280 changed the bassline. They let me change when something is 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:54.320 wrong with My Baby and some of the well. When 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:56.680 we were working on Try a Little Tenderness, Oldis gave 0:20:56.720 --> 0:20:59.199 me the freedom to work with the bass parts and 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.200 the quartal quotal changes in that and yeah, they were 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:04.960 all open to my changes. Can you show me what 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:08.600 you did on a song like um you mentioned Carla 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:11.600 Thomas Baby, which was a song she didn't like, and 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:13.800 then you finally made it work. What did you do? 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:18.280 I gave it a little motown feel like that. I 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:21.560 changed the baseline, and I changed the tempo and the melody, 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:23.200 but on the melody is the same as they wrote 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:25.040 the words. They wrote the words and lyrics same as 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:28.920 they wrote. Did you change any of the chords underneath? No, No, 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.199 it's the same chord as they wrote. Yeah, it's just 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:34.359 the way it feels. Now. Were you guys, I mean, 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:40.480 Stax was this incredible factory of hits. Were you competitive 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:42.560 with Motown? Were you looking at what they were doing 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:44.479 and saying we're going to beat them? Not at all. 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:48.160 I think we were. We used Motown as as an 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:53.280 instructive element because they were so great, so knowledgeable, They 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:57.000 made so many good, good decisions with their music, and 0:21:57.040 --> 0:21:59.119 it was so so much fun to listen to it. 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:05.000 But we were we didn't consider ourselves in competition because 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:08.480 we were so different. You know, we were simplistic. We 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:15.240 talked about not making the music too complicated and keeping 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:20.679 it accessible, you know, with the baselines and the drum beats. 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:25.280 So to me, it wasn't competitive at all. I don't 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:28.439 think we could have competed with them. Really. Can you 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:33.120 tell me about meeting Otis reading for the first time? Yeah, 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:38.600 Otis was um um, an humble guy, he was, you know, 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:41.960 he was really excited about making music all the time. 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:45.320 He was willing to do everything, carry the instruments and 0:22:45.760 --> 0:22:47.720 go get the food. And he was the driver for 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:50.200 Johnny Jenkins and the pan topers. And the first time 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:51.840 I met him, he was out on the street loading 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:54.200 the suitcases onto the sidewalk. You know, how do you 0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:57.159 need anything? And you know, what can I do? And 0:22:57.160 --> 0:22:59.760 then can I sing a song? Now? He can't sing 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:03.639 us sing a song? He never had somebody a Roady 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:06.399 wanted to sing before. Yeah, no, roadies didn't do that. 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:08.720 And we let him sing, and then he wasn't a 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:11.000 roady anymore. After he sang the first two lines of 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:13.200 these Arms of Mine, he was sitting right here next 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:15.520 to me. And of course then by that time we 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:17.760 wanted to get the tape roll and record this guy. 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:20.000 So did he say play this quarter? Did he just 0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:23.480 start singing his own? No, it was all intuitive. He didn't. 0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:25.639 He didn't. He didn't mention any course, but he started 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:28.120 right in on key, you know, so either he had 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:32.000 perfect pitch or something. But he I didn't have to 0:23:32.000 --> 0:23:33.800 play any notes for him before he started. He knew 0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:36.359 exactly what he was singing. And it was his song. 0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:40.439 So he was just in an instant. I don't know, 0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:42.720 maybe he was the easiest in that way, actually, m 0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:45.359 And then you added a lot of different things to 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:49.040