1 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to 2 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, 3 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: which you can find a link to in the show 4 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: notes for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced 5 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect all right, 6 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,480 Speaker 1: enjoy the episode. A few songs hit quite like this. 7 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: Green Onions was recorded in two takes in nineteen sixty 8 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: two by book Or T and the MG's. They were 9 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: the house band for Stax Records in Memphis. This song 10 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: was originally the B side, but once it started making 11 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: the rounds on radio, it was quickly re released as 12 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: the A side, going down as one of the most 13 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: recognizable instrumentals ever. Book Or T, along with the guitar 14 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: Steve Cropper, drummer Al Jackson Junior, and bassist Louis Steinberg 15 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: or depending on the y, Donald Duck Dunne, went on 16 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: to record hits like Sitting on the Dock of the Bay, 17 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: Hold On Him Coming, and soul Man, and then the 18 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: process defined the sound of Southern soul, which was way 19 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: more gritty than the polished sound coming out of Motown. 20 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: Over the last sixty years, Booker T has been writing, producing, 21 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: arranging and playing with some of your favorite artists like 22 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: Otis Reading, Neil Young, Willie Nelson, Bill Withers, and of 23 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: course has been sampled in hip hop like a James 24 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: Brown drummer, songs by the Roots, Fou Tang Clan and others. 25 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: He wrote about it in his memoir Time Is Tight 26 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: My Life. Note by note, Booker T sat with Bruce 27 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 1: Hadlim in front of a ham and C three organ 28 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: so he could talk and play us through his career. 29 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: This is Broken Record season three Liner notes for the 30 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Bruce Hadlim speaking with 31 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: Booker T from Bridge Studio in Brooklyn. I do want 32 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: to start today talking about your new book, Time Is Tight, Yeah, 33 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: which is fabulous for many many reasons, and I think 34 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: everyone should read. Thank you. What interested me particularly was, 35 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: you know, there's this perception people have of I think, 36 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: particularly Southern musicians, soul musicians, that you guys learned everything 37 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:28,519 Speaker 1: in the church or singing on street corners. You were 38 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: a serious music academic, You studied very hard from an 39 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: early age. How did that? Why did that happen? Well, 40 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 1: I think your first two elements of the formula are 41 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: exactly correct the church I was. I remember singing Jesus 42 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: Loves Me as a little boy in Sunday School and 43 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: my first solo was in church. And then as I 44 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: grew up a little earlier some of my friends. I 45 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 1: met Maurice White and sixth grade and David Porter in 46 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: ninth grade and they were singing and do up groups 47 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: on the street corner. And I came from a background 48 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: where my grandfather built a school down in Holly Springs, Mississippi, 49 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: and he mandated that his children go to school, first 50 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: his school, and then that they go to high school 51 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: and that they go to college. So all his kids, 52 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: including my father, went father graduated m I and became 53 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: a math teacher, and he wanted all his grandkids to 54 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: do the same thing. So I was one of those. 55 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: So it was predetermined that I was going to study 56 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: and go to college. And I saved up nine hundred 57 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: dollars on my paper out to that effect. Studied Latin 58 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: in the ninth grade, so you know. And the music 59 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: was came from my mother's side, the classical music. My 60 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: grandmother was a piano teacher. She had a piano taught 61 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: my mother. My mother played Let's WC. Chopin in the 62 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: house and that that music affected me. So I got 63 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: it from a lot of different angles, including those first 64 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: ones you mentioned. When did you realize you're studying music? 65 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: You started, I think with a clarinet. The clarinet was 66 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: the first one I owned. The first one I started 67 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 1: with was oboe, the first formal instrument. But before that, 68 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: as a little boy, had a ukulele that got me 69 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: into guitar. So kind I kind of see myself as 70 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: a guitar player. You see yourself as a guitar player. 71 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: Now I pick it up first more usually when I'm 72 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 1: writing a song. When did you know music was going 73 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: to be your life? As a young boy, started hearing 74 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: music in my mind since I can remember various sounds 75 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: and melodies and and I didn't know what to call them, 76 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: you know, And that I think was the challenges I 77 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: grew older, what to call everything. So that's where the 78 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: formal education came in, you know, taking piano lessons, organ lessons, 79 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: theory lessons. In high schoo I had to put a 80 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: name to everything, you know, so I could communicate with 81 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: the outside world, you know. Yeah, and these are you know, 82 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: this is pre integration your school. You went to an 83 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: all black school, went to an African American school, saying 84 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: in the choir in the first grade at port of 85 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: Junior High School, which was all blacks, no whites, and 86 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: you but the music education was really intense, and you 87 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: took theory lessons after school. That was in nineteenth grade, 88 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: starting in about nineteenth fifty nine. And then there's this 89 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: amazing passage in your book where you are as is 90 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 1: years later, you're working at stacks. I think you're doing 91 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: the arrangement for when something is wrong with my Baby, 92 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: the great Sam and Dave song. And I think the 93 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: next thing that happens is you're trying to figure out 94 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: your your college at that point in Indiana, you're trying 95 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: to figure out what you're going to play for your 96 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: trombone recite. Yeah. Yeah, those were coincide or incidental. So 97 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: you were flying back and forth stack sessions from and 98 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: you were getting an education at one of the great 99 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: music colleges in the country. I think you mentioned a 100 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: great instance. I'll play you know that's a great you know, 101 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: combination of a church feeling, you know, the way that 102 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 1: the way the notes move in the base and in 103 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: the classical combination of those influences in my life, but 104 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,359 Speaker 1: the church I think was the main, the strongest influence 105 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: in my musical makeup. One of the other influences you mentioned, 106 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: and this is fascinating to me, and I'd love you 107 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: to walk me through. It was when you wrote Green 108 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: Onions and I think you were probably nineteen or something 109 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: seen seventeen, but you said it's because you'd studied back counterpoint. 110 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: I wanted to go to UCLA or Indiana University, so 111 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: I had to pass a theory I had to pass. 112 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: As you're to go to India University. They were going 113 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: to ask questions about the basics of music. I was 114 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: music put together. So that's where my theory class started. 115 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: You know, the scale, twelve notes in the scale, and 116 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: what are they the third? And what are the poor changes? Those? 117 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: The way I moved those notes were basically dictated by J. S. 118 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: Bo contrepurnal movement. You know, it makes sense if we 119 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: didn't think about it, but it's it's it's ingrained in 120 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: our Western society. What I just played, that's the way 121 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: the notes moved other countries or whatever. So in figuring 122 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: that out, I m this, what if a note went, 123 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: That's where the Blues came in, changing this from a 124 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: major third to a minor third. That that third one, 125 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: two three, what about the minor three? So that's when 126 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: Greenlandians came from instead of And I thought, what if 127 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: the third was a minor and what if the top 128 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: moved down like a bat because back can counterpoint the 129 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: top exactly, it moves, it moves in the opposite the 130 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: bottom moves up. I mean the bottom moves up while 131 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: the top moves down. Wow. So I kind of played 132 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: that on the piano. I thought that sounds kind of cool, 133 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: you know. And then the changes, of course, are just 134 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:43,839 Speaker 1: regular blues changes that we played all the time. You 135 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: go from that to the B flat and then back 136 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: to the one. So it's the twelve bar blues basically, 137 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: but it has this for its second chord instead of 138 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: I think it would feel different if I played it 139 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,599 Speaker 1: like that. So that's basically the history of Health Queens 140 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: came about. And was there a particular box song that 141 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: inspired that or just it was just generally it's just 142 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: contrapuntal rules, just the rules that we learned, you know. 143 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: And that's the major scale. Um, and I want to 144 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: go back to your education and more about Memphis. But 145 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: there's one other great example you mentioned in the book. 146 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: There's many great examples, but you wrote the great Albert 147 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: King's song Born under a Bad Sign, and you said 148 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 1: you picked a particular key for that. Yeah, yeah, I 149 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: don't know where that came from. That you know that 150 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: that door opened that we gotta call. We being myself 151 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: and my partner William Bell, that we were We were 152 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: staff producers at the time and we were responsible for 153 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,839 Speaker 1: recording Albert King, and he was coming down the next day. 154 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 1: So we went into my den the other night before 155 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: Friday night to write something him and uh, that came 156 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: into my mind. And William has been working on the 157 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: lyrics content born under a Bad Sign. They've been working 158 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: on that for himself. So the two came together that 159 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: night before. But then, you know, at Indiana, I had 160 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: learned about, you know, the urgency that you could put 161 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 1: into certain keys, that that we're we're not inherent in 162 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: some keys. Music is a just say music music. Music, 163 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: music is parties out for our atmosphere and some some 164 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: some keys have more emotional content for uh than others. 165 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: So I went to C flat minor for Albert you know, 166 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:37,359 Speaker 1: a D flat D flat the same key, so that's yeah, yeah, 167 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 1: so this this is different. That's the Albert's key yea. 168 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: And the way he played his guy, so he pulled 169 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: his strings, you know on those keys, and we got 170 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: this tension, you know, and this this emotional necessity out 171 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: of this song, and it just makes it just playing 172 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: it right here now makes you feel kind of differently. 173 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: It's like something ominous is is is you know, and 174 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: you think of it, and that came from the key 175 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 1: that came from that game, from going from here to here. Yeah, 176 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: and you mentioned that you like C sharp Wagner, Yeah, Chopin, 177 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: you know, they were they played in those keys. They 178 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: didn't mind writing six sharps, you know, they made the 179 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 1: musicians playing those keys. And but it had this this uh, 180 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: this feeling, you know, this emotion you know, and and 181 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: the blues and that key it's just unbelievable, you know. 182 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: To me, it's not a common it's not a common 183 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 1: key for for blues though well, I don't know. It 184 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: was perfect for this and for Albert. I think a 185 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: lot of blues musicians when I was in Memphis played 186 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: in the in the simpler keys, you know, F and 187 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: and maybe C or g minor. But but when you 188 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: go to the monar keys like that a flat uh 189 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: G sharp manner, there's a certain there's another element that 190 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: comes in. It's I guess it's the way that universe 191 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: is put together, the makeup of the Adams or something 192 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: as something it is, so it's more more emphatic. Yeah, 193 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 1: and so the born on her bad sides and C 194 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: sharp minor. Wow, the same way as so Pen's concertos. 195 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: And it was very great, good key for Albert. He 196 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: just killed it. Now he was a guitar player, so 197 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: it's a little easier to move. And he's also a 198 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: right handed guitar player, kind of like Jimi Hendrix, so 199 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: it wasn't such an issue. You know, left hand and 200 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: guitar players have to push the strings, but a right 201 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: hand and guitar player like Albert can pull the strings. 202 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: So he had more strength, more physical strength over there 203 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 1: right on the upper strings. So he just he just 204 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: killed it. It was it was. It was a great experience. 205 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: Oh amazing. Yeah, I want to go back to We 206 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: talked about severe academic background, but then you started playing 207 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: along Beal Street. Now people now know Beal Street because 208 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: of the of the Baldwin book and they just made 209 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: it into a movie. But it was this famous street 210 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: in Memphis where you're from. Can you tell me what 211 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: it was like playing in those clubs back then you 212 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: were just a kid. Yeah, I was right off of 213 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: Beal Street on Hernando, just about a couple of doors 214 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: down at the Flamingo Room upstairs on the second floor 215 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: was where they were the only ones that actually let 216 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: me in. Cliff Miller was the owner of the place 217 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: and it was his place, so he brought me in. 218 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: And I couldn't get into the club Handy, which was 219 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 1: on the other side of Bell that was Sunbeam Mitchell's club. 220 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: I was too young, and he I guess, I guess 221 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: he could have broken the rules that had me in, 222 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: But but Cliff was the one that was interested in me. 223 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: He brought me in to play bass, and I played 224 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: bass and Jane Bowles Miller's ban and William Mitchell's ban. 225 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: How how long had you played the bass at that point? 226 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: I picked up the string bass at Book of Washington 227 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: Junior High School. They had a bass and I played 228 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: some bass and in the combo there. Yeah, by the way, 229 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: this is probably be a good time to pause and say, 230 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 1: your name really is Booker T. My name is. My 231 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: name is Booker T. Jones. I was named after my father, 232 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 1: Booker T. Jones Senior, who was named after Booker T. Washington, 233 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: who was an educator and uh built built a college Tuskegee. 234 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: I was a Tuskegee. Uh. Yeah, So and you attended 235 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: Booker T. Washington High Schooker T. Washington High School? Yes, 236 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: I did. Okay. So while you're so, you were playing 237 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: in these clubs? Were they rough clubs? Was it was 238 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: it strange for a kid to be in there? Yes? 239 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: It was unsafe. Uh. I mean there was a lot 240 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: going on on Bill Street, you know, Bille Street was 241 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: everything from you know, prostitution and whiskey running and there's 242 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff going on down there. And my parents, 243 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: but my parents picked out a couple of musicians they 244 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: trusted to watch over me. They picked out Floyd Newman 245 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: to take me home at night and take me over 246 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: to the club. He hated it, but my dad had 247 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: been as algebra teacher, but he did it anyway. So 248 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: your dad had been his age. He had listen to 249 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: your dad. Yeah. Uh, your dad is uh, you know, 250 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: he's a high school teacher. Yeah, he's always in a 251 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: white shirt and tie. Yeah, and he'd been he thinks 252 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: it's okay for you to play these clubs. Well, you 253 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: know my dad, I appreciated. My dad supported my musical 254 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: passion and if I wanted to do it, he sat out. 255 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: He sat out in club side on so many clubs 256 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: out on the countryside while I played, and he just 257 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: supported and brought me the instruments, and he was my benefactor. 258 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: You know, is there there may be a picture in 259 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: the book of him and his algebra class with his 260 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: white shirt and tie and his and his pointer, you know, 261 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: teaching kids to to uh, to calculate. Yeah, he seems 262 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: like just an amazing character. He was. I don't know 263 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: if I wouldn't be here without him. I mean, he 264 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: bought the first clarinet, and he just he just you know, 265 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: took me and put Maurice White's drums in the back 266 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: of his car and Frank Easley's based fit all that 267 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: stuff in his car and took us to the clubs. 268 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: And yeah, maybe he may be the nicest algebra teacher 269 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: who ever lived. He was, he was grade. A lot 270 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: of people loved him. Yeah, And then at sixteen, you started. 271 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: It wasn't called stacks then it was called satellite. But 272 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: you did your first session. Yeah, I was fifteen. I 273 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: was in tenth grade and the guy Floyd Newman I 274 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: was telling you about was there baritone sax player, but 275 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: he was also a high school teacher, so he couldn't 276 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: make this particular session because he was in school. And 277 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: David Porter came and got me out of school my 278 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: Alzebrath class or tenth grade Alzabra class to play for 279 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: Rufus and Carlin Thomas played baritone sacks on their calls 280 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: I Love You. Their first record its stacks and yeah, 281 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: and that's got a lot of baritone sacks that record. 282 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: It does I play through the whole song? How many 283 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: tanks did you do? Oh? I don't know. That was 284 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: a pretty We didn't I take too much time to 285 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: record that. That was closer being a first take, I 286 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: think something like that. And then did you get more 287 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: sessions after that? I did? I did. I took the 288 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: opportunity to tell them that I could play piano, because 289 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: you know, it was it was Floyd Newman's job to 290 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: play saxophone over baritone sacks. I couldn't take it. Yeah, 291 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: I like how you cut school to do it. Yeah, 292 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: he's a teacher. He can't cut, he can't cut glass. Yeah. 293 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 1: So I was there and I told him I could 294 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: play piano, and I got the job working after school 295 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: as a session player right after that, when they found 296 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: out I could play piano. Do you remember some of 297 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: your other early sessions. Yeah. The first one I remember 298 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: was Prince Comedy. Oh my goodness, what was that song? Yeah, 299 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: it was a great blue song. I'm coming home, I'm 300 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: going home, Prince Comedy. Yeah, yeah, that was the first. 301 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: And I played the oil and solo on that one. 302 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: That was a blue song. Now you you are sitting 303 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: in front of a B three Hammond B three, and 304 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: we've got the speaker in the other room. I think 305 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: this is a C three. This is a C three 306 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: because it's got the wooden sides over here. Okay, now 307 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: I was I was just told this. The C three 308 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: was the church version. Yeah, so that you couldn't see 309 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: you couldn't see the organist legs. Yeah and that Yeah, yeah, 310 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: it was heavier. It looks better. Yeah. Now you you 311 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 1: talk a lot about the B three year the C 312 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: three Hammond, that it could make any sound you imagined. 313 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: What what did you mean by that? Well, you have 314 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: drawbars you can pull out and mix the tones. And no, 315 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 1: I don't know of any other instrument that you can 316 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: do that. Onse, I don't can't think of any other 317 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: instrument that you can change like that. You can't do 318 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: that with the old boy. He can't do it. Maybe 319 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: guitarists can do it, but I don't know if they 320 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: can do it as quickly. Right, and the middle you 321 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: just heard that was that was about five different sounds 322 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: there from from one note. There was there one particular 323 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: sound that grabbed you? Or was it the variety that 324 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: got you? The variety? I mean, that's what my teacher 325 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: told me when I when I saw the thing. Her 326 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: name was missus Cole, and I tried to get the 327 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: lessons on and she said, you know, you can make 328 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: any sound you want. This sentiment, you can make it 329 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: sound like a big full orchestra or clarinet or you know. 330 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: So it was what she told me. It was the 331 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: opening up of those possibilities. I think that sucked me in. 332 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: And was she did she teach you gospel style or 333 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,959 Speaker 1: did she teach you know? She started with this at 334 00:19:29,040 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: my first lesson with her well tempered clavier. Yes, Bob, 335 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: if he lived long enough, he might have written green onions. 336 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,360 Speaker 1: He would have. He was on inspired, dude. Man. We'll 337 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: be back with more of a conversation with Booker T. 338 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: After the break. We're back with more from Booker T. 339 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: When did you start arranging and writing at stacks? That 340 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 1: started with working on David Porter and Isaac Hayes's song 341 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: Salmon Dave songs Oldis reading songs. They gave me the 342 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: freedom to change their songs around the way I heard them. 343 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 1: I worked on Baby, they had written in a different way, 344 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: and I gave it kind of a motown field. I 345 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: changed the bassline. They let me change when something is 346 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: wrong with My Baby and some of the well. When 347 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: we were working on Try a Little Tenderness, Oldis gave 348 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,199 Speaker 1: me the freedom to work with the bass parts and 349 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: the quartal quotal changes in that and yeah, they were 350 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: all open to my changes. Can you show me what 351 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: you did on a song like um you mentioned Carla 352 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: Thomas Baby, which was a song she didn't like, and 353 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: then you finally made it work. What did you do? 354 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: I gave it a little motown feel like that. I 355 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: changed the baseline, and I changed the tempo and the melody, 356 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: but on the melody is the same as they wrote 357 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: the words. They wrote the words and lyrics same as 358 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 1: they wrote. Did you change any of the chords underneath? No, No, 359 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 1: it's the same chord as they wrote. Yeah, it's just 360 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: the way it feels. Now. Were you guys, I mean, 361 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: Stax was this incredible factory of hits. Were you competitive 362 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: with Motown? Were you looking at what they were doing 363 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,479 Speaker 1: and saying we're going to beat them? Not at all. 364 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 1: I think we were. We used Motown as as an 365 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: instructive element because they were so great, so knowledgeable, They 366 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: made so many good, good decisions with their music, and 367 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: it was so so much fun to listen to it. 368 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: But we were we didn't consider ourselves in competition because 369 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: we were so different. You know, we were simplistic. We 370 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: talked about not making the music too complicated and keeping 371 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 1: it accessible, you know, with the baselines and the drum beats. 372 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: So to me, it wasn't competitive at all. I don't 373 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: think we could have competed with them. Really. Can you 374 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: tell me about meeting Otis reading for the first time? Yeah, 375 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: Otis was um um, an humble guy, he was, you know, 376 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: he was really excited about making music all the time. 377 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: He was willing to do everything, carry the instruments and 378 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: go get the food. And he was the driver for 379 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: Johnny Jenkins and the pan topers. And the first time 380 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: I met him, he was out on the street loading 381 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: the suitcases onto the sidewalk. You know, how do you 382 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 1: need anything? And you know, what can I do? And 383 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: then can I sing a song? Now? He can't sing 384 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: us sing a song? He never had somebody a Roady 385 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: wanted to sing before. Yeah, no, roadies didn't do that. 386 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: And we let him sing, and then he wasn't a 387 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: roady anymore. After he sang the first two lines of 388 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: these Arms of Mine, he was sitting right here next 389 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: to me. And of course then by that time we 390 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: wanted to get the tape roll and record this guy. 391 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: So did he say play this quarter? Did he just 392 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: start singing his own? No, it was all intuitive. He didn't. 393 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 1: He didn't. He didn't mention any course, but he started 394 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 1: right in on key, you know, so either he had 395 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: perfect pitch or something. But he I didn't have to 396 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: play any notes for him before he started. He knew 397 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: exactly what he was singing. And it was his song. 398 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 1: So he was just in an instant. I don't know, 399 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: maybe he was the easiest in that way, actually, m 400 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: And then you added a lot of different things to 401 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: his songs as time grew on. He would look over, 402 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: he would he would look over to me, and he 403 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: dictated a lot with his mouth. He would harm you 404 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: know that, he would saying, you know, bla blah blah. 405 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 1: He would sing the lines to the horns. But a 406 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: lot of the intricate stuff that I did under neath 407 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: he allowed me to do. You know, well you just 408 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: mentioned sad song. That song I can't sing it, but 409 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: you just sang a little bit of it, and that's 410 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: the song. You would do a beautiful company too. What 411 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: a better example would be, so you know the walk 412 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: up to that those those are the freedoms that that 413 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: I had to with him was to to to um, 414 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 1: to insert musical elements to help build there. And he 415 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: would wait for things like that. Oh yeah, he was. 416 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 1: He was dictatorial, but he also gave a lot of 417 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,199 Speaker 1: freedoms with him. Okay, I'm just gonna wait for a 418 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: minute for the hair in the back of my neck 419 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 1: to go back down because I was just so fantastic. Yeah, 420 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 1: and then there was so much the way you describe it, Uh, 421 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: he was in San Francisco for a while and he 422 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: wrote Doc in the Bay, and then there was so 423 00:24:53,720 --> 00:25:00,479 Speaker 1: much excitement around what became his last album. U just 424 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: the making of it. You sort of you described the 425 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: place being almost kind of in a not a frenzy, 426 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: but almost a kind of it was a state of siege. 427 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,479 Speaker 1: To be honest with you, he sneaked it on us. 428 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: We knew that Steve had kind of prepared us. Steve 429 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: was kind of the four Minutes stacks. He was the 430 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 1: the A and R guy, and he told us we're 431 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,679 Speaker 1: going to be recording some new sessions with Oldist, but 432 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: we didn't know they were going to be non stop sessions, 433 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: and we didn't know that they were going to be 434 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: song after song after song. And that would you know, 435 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: include not going home and staying in the studio and 436 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: ordering food and we never did that before. That was 437 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: the only time we ever did that, stayed in the 438 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: studio day after day after day. And I think it 439 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: culminated with that song um sitting on Doc with the Bay. 440 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: But there were so many great ones and it just 441 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: went one one to the other. So yeah, so that 442 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: was a there was a middle attitude that maybe Oldest 443 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: had a premonition that he needed to record those songs 444 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: immediately without any you know, any delay of taking a 445 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,360 Speaker 1: night off for a day off for that type of thing. 446 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: And you played piano on I did. I played piano 447 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: almost almost everything during that those sessions, And was try 448 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: little tenderness part of those sessions as well? Was that earlier? No, 449 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: that was earlier, okay, because that arrangement, I mean, it's 450 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: an old song is so unusual even now when you 451 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: hear it, it's sort of disarming. What how did you 452 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: put that song together? That was a trip that I 453 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: made down from Indiana to play on that. Think that 454 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: my contribution was to um to raise the keys rather 455 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: than playing it in one key, so it moves up 456 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: during the course of the song. Yeah. I think this 457 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: was one of his kind of foot stomping masterpieces that 458 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: he came up with indict and sang the lines to 459 00:26:54,640 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: the horns and and had this interaction with Al Jackson Junior, 460 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: the drummer. Yeah. Now when you were arranging, were you 461 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: writing out charts for the horns or was it more it? 462 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: Was it more informal than that. This one was informal. 463 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: This one's a head chart. I didn't put anything on paper. 464 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 1: I don't think we had strings on this song. But 465 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: when we had strings, and we could always tell the 466 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: horn players to play by ear and just hum the 467 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: list of them. But when we had strings and we 468 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 1: had had to write it down, Yeah, string players can't 469 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: do that. Let's yeah, well they can, some of them, 470 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: but but usually I would just you know, write a 471 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: chart for them. Is it sort of incredible scene in 472 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: your book at Oldis Readings Funeral when you were supposed 473 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: to perform and you couldn't. Yeah, that was tough. That 474 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: was tough. Um that was there in this big auditorium 475 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 1: for Oldis Readings Funeral and making Georgie And oh it 476 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: was a song that I played in church a thousand times, 477 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,479 Speaker 1: and I think I had brought the music just in 478 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: case I got in trouble, and I think, who was it, 479 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: Joe Simon was gonna sing? And I heard the children 480 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: walked in and then what I walked in and I 481 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: just I just my professionalism left me. And it was 482 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: it was a song that near the cross, Near the Cross. 483 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: I had played that so many times that's what I 484 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: was supposed to play. I couldn't think of that, to 485 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: save my life. Well, you just played for him, so 486 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: that's but I couldn't think of it that history. I 487 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: just you know, did you finally get it out? Or 488 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: I think I think I finally got the music out. 489 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,479 Speaker 1: I had to and put it and I actually had 490 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: to put it on the new organ and played it. 491 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: And once I saw the notes on the page and 492 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: I remembered it. Now, I want to talk to them 493 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: about a couple of the songs you did. You did 494 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: a lot of those songs as mgs, but soul Dressing 495 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: was one of them. How did that come up? That was? 496 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: That was? I would call that an Indiana song. I 497 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: drove so many hours down Highway thirty seven from Indiana. 498 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: That's me driving down looking around at the houses, the farmhouses, 499 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,479 Speaker 1: and that's when a lot of the melodies came to me. 500 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: When I was driving, you know, north and south on 501 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: Highway thirty seven through Kentucky and Indiana, northern tennessee the scenes, 502 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: you know, the pastoral scenes and those kind of peaceful scenes. 503 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: Would you pull over and write them down? No, I 504 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: just try to remember it, Just try to remember it okay. 505 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: And I want to ask about Slim Jenkins joint. That 506 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: was New York City. I came up with that in 507 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: Memphis on piano. I think it ended up playing piano 508 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: on it. That's the story about that song. That seems 509 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: like every song has a story. But when you mentioned 510 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: that we were trying to record that song in New 511 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: York and it was at Atlantic Studios on where we 512 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: and Cream had I guess it was Cream had just 513 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: become a big act there. And I just if somebody, 514 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: you know, if we were working in here right now 515 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: and someone came in and sat there and I was 516 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: coming up with something new, it would just totally distract me. 517 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: I would lose my concentration. So I would say, if 518 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: anybody else in the studio that's not actually working on 519 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: the record, would you just please, you know, just step 520 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: outside or just don't be here now, because I got distracted. 521 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: We're working on this song, about to track down and everything. 522 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: Time came to put the organ in and this fella 523 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: comes in and he just he just walks in there, 524 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: Nobody says, and he sits down like right over here 525 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: by the wall and crosses his legs and doesn't look 526 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: at me. He just sits there and I'm supposed to 527 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: do the organ part, right, I'm totally distracted. All I 528 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: can do is look at this guy and uh, And 529 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: I found out it was Eric Clapton and he basically 530 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: owned the place. At that point, I walked over Tom 531 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 1: dowllis fella right there. Well it's just Eric just don't matter. 532 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: It's just it wasn't a big deal to Tom. They 533 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: weren't distracted at all. Oh your engineer was Tom down? Yeah? 534 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: Tom hung Yeah, he says, I was just just going. 535 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: So I walked back out there and I played that, 536 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: but I could not get in my mind off who 537 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: the hell is this sitting in here like that? And 538 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,719 Speaker 1: I asked him a few years later when we were 539 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 1: down in Texas and I came to play there, Eric clapping, 540 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: he had a guitar festival down and down was that you? Yeah? 541 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: That was me. He just he just wanted to check 542 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: out the session. Well people did that normally, you know, 543 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: other people did that. They had other people come in 544 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: and said But I was always so private and so 545 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, so focused. It kind of distracted me 546 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: to have somebody unless they were working on the music anyway, 547 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: there's another great scene in your book where you play 548 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: the Monterrey hot festive. Is that in the book that 549 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: I'll talk about that? Yeah, where you you know, you guys, 550 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: you're there with Otis Redding. Yeah, you're wearing I'm not 551 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: sure they were matching suits, but we were in beautiful 552 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: suits and you're incredibly professional and you go back to 553 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: your hotel. There's just like hippies hanging around everywhere. You're looking, 554 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: what the who are these people? We stuck out like 555 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: a sore thomb. It was amazing, but it became this 556 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: legendary performance. It was, uh, yeah, we wish we had 557 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: some other clothes because it was we had these suits 558 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: made of Landscape Brothers, you know, and Memphis. Everybody went 559 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: there because that's where Elvis had this stuff done and 560 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: they were great. They could get just suited up quickly 561 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: and yeah, and they made nice stuff. Yeah, but you 562 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: but you looked like algebra teachers compared to everybody. Absolutely. Yeah, 563 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: they were. They were green silk suits, you know, conservative suits, 564 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: and that's what we wanted stage. That's what we thought 565 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: we were supposed to wear. Al Jackson, you know, that 566 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: was his idea, and that's what we did uh. You know, 567 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: in Memphis in the time you were, the MGS were 568 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: sort of held up. I don't know if they were 569 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: held up at the time, but they are now as 570 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: an integrated band. There weren't many integrated bands in the country, 571 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: and you were probably the most famous at that point. 572 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: Were you conscious of what was going on in Memphis 573 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: at the time before, for example, Martin Luther King came 574 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: and he was killed there, but for the Garbageman strike? 575 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: Was that stuff? Not so much conscious of the fact 576 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: that we were integrated. That was that was a subtext. 577 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: It was not important. You didn't think much of it. 578 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: Didn't think much of it that the bass player was 579 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: white and the guitar player was white. It was not 580 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: a big deal. M But you know, like I said, 581 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,239 Speaker 1: we were a family, so we were close, you know, um, 582 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: And it was kind of a big surprise to me 583 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: later when I would you do interviews, and that would 584 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: be the first question that people ask. My God, they're 585 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: more interested in in our different in races than they 586 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: are in the in the music, you know. I would 587 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: get questions like that from overseas. But no, we were aware, 588 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: of course that we were different races. But it was 589 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: not a pervasive issue. We liked the way those guys played, 590 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: and they were they were we were together. They were 591 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,720 Speaker 1: part of us, you know, we were part of them. 592 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,800 Speaker 1: It became an issue after Martin Luther King was killed 593 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: and Steve Cropper became a bigger issue. He said some 594 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: things that seemed to blame Martin Luther King for stirring 595 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 1: things up in Memphis. What was that like for you? 596 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,800 Speaker 1: At different times? It was a different difficulties. Later years, 597 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: it was more difficult than it was at the time. 598 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: I was unaware of that um in nineteen sixty eight. 599 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: It was a very pervasive, multi headed octahedron working in 600 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: Memphis against exactly what we were doing. There was a 601 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: huge establishment that was dedicated to separate people like us 602 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 1: and not have what was going on at nine twenty 603 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: six Maclamore going on. There were there were people in 604 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 1: Memphis who didn't want freedom writers to come into town 605 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: and work towards that. But I was unaware of it 606 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: at the time, which is a good thing, I think, 607 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: because you know it would I think it would have 608 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: hindered the music making had I been aware of how 609 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: strong the opposition was to racist working together. When we 610 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 1: come back. We'll pick back up with Booker T and 611 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: more on the complications of playing soul music in the South. 612 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: We're back with more of Bruce's conversation with Booker T. 613 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: There's an incredible scene in your book when you decide 614 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: you're going to leave Stacks, which at that point is 615 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: run by Al Bell, and you write a song and 616 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: play it for him. Can you tell me that story? Yeah? 617 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 1: I think you know. It was the beginning of my 618 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: trying to increase my awareness in general and kind of 619 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,839 Speaker 1: realizing that I could maybe think on a different level. 620 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: And I became aware of this huge i'll have to 621 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,800 Speaker 1: call it a monster, multi headed monster that was moving 622 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 1: about Memphis where I was, that was effectively dictating to 623 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: two races of people, dictating the whites dictating the blacks, 624 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 1: and it was it was undetectable to most people. But 625 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,760 Speaker 1: I think I became aware of this and I wrote 626 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:53,320 Speaker 1: the song about it and called old Man Trouble about 627 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: defeating this unknown force that you couldn't see and doing 628 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 1: it in your own mind and getting getting your mind free. 629 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: Do you remember any of the song now, Yeah, there's 630 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: a man called Trouble and he follows me everywhere I 631 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: go now, old man trouble. You can't get me now, 632 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: I know. So, Yeah, it was a song that I did, 633 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: and I've spent a lot of money on did a 634 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,360 Speaker 1: big horn rangement, string section. Now Al Jackson, Ronnie Campone 635 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: and those those guys were it actually got. Stephen Stills 636 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: recorded a few league few years later on one of 637 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,839 Speaker 1: his soul albums. And so you played this for Al 638 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 1: Bell and Al Bell was African American. Yeah, and he 639 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: had become the president, he was the leader of the company. Yeah, 640 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: it was reminiscent for me. If Sam cooks the change 641 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 1: is gonna come. You know, it was nineteen sixty eight. 642 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: You could feel it in the air in nineteen sixty eight, 643 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 1: you know, the um it was a pivotal year for 644 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 1: a lot of things. And but this this was this 645 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: was a real thing. This was a dynasty that was 646 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 1: at work in Memphis. It was a it was an 647 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: oppressive force that was that was working man there. But 648 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 1: it blought up at the surface, you know. But he 649 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: he didn't have a good reaction to the song. It 650 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: upset him. He had the same reaction I think that 651 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,359 Speaker 1: he would have. I think he even mentioned Sam Cook's song. 652 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: He was the president of a of a record company 653 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: that was about to really break open, and and it 654 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: had to make a statement that the company eventually did 655 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: make the statement as as a voice of Black America, 656 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: but he wanted to be. He wanted to be I 657 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,800 Speaker 1: think a little more gradual than the song would have dictated. 658 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 1: M And it was an interacial company at the time, 659 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't just a Black America, black record company. 660 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 1: I think he was. I think, as I said in 661 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: the book, I think we had the same goal. You know, 662 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,959 Speaker 1: Al actually had been part of a Dr King's team 663 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 1: at one point. We had the same goal, but I 664 00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,040 Speaker 1: think we were taking to different directions toward it. And 665 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: after you played it for him, you went back into 666 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 1: the studio. Yeah, and can you tell me what you did? Yeah, 667 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: we didn't. We didn't make a deal that night, which 668 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,239 Speaker 1: is what I had wanted. I went to his house 669 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 1: looking for a deal, and I became a parent. I 670 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: looked at the space. We weren't going to make a deal. 671 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: I realized that it was just time. It was time 672 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: to go, So I wanted to um. I wanted to 673 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,399 Speaker 1: sever all my links with the company. So I walked 674 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: into the control room and I am. You know, I 675 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,799 Speaker 1: raised anything new that I had done at that point, 676 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 1: including that song, including that song, and you couldn't what 677 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: was it? You had to tape over it. You couldn't 678 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 1: reverse the tape right, No, And I'm sort of glad 679 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: I did because they had the freeing, they owned all 680 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:48,760 Speaker 1: the masters, and they could put out anything they wanted 681 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: after I left. So if I was going to make 682 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: any decisions, that had to be that night. And so yes, 683 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 1: I put I raised multiple, multiple machines by pressing the 684 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: record button and then just went home and packed and 685 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,320 Speaker 1: went to California. It's it's like a scene from a novel, 686 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: just these machines running and you're then you just leave. 687 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 1: It's incredible, and I'm glad I did. It turned out 688 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: they put out many outtakes of the MG, stuff that 689 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,319 Speaker 1: we weren't finished with, that we hadn't even named, and 690 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: I've heard of stuff, well we're not finished with that one. 691 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: And they they other companies bought the masters from Stacks. 692 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,359 Speaker 1: A Fantasy bought Stacks, and then they just put out 693 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: what they wanted to without permission. They owned it. So 694 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 1: if you know, if you're leaving a record company, you 695 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: gotta you can't leave anything there, you know, And then 696 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 1: you went to California. Yeah, you didn't have a lot 697 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,240 Speaker 1: of money, didn't have a lot of money. You didn't. 698 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: I can't remember what you're making at that point at stacks, 699 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: like one hundred and twenty five a week or something, 700 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,319 Speaker 1: when my first deal with Herb Alpert was more than 701 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,840 Speaker 1: I had made in a Memphis in a year. My 702 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: first Yeah, yeah, they gave me. They made me very comfortable. 703 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,959 Speaker 1: But you you describe yourself as almost being a little 704 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,800 Speaker 1: at sea after after your time at Stacks, trying to 705 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,280 Speaker 1: figure out what was next. But then you almost immediately 706 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: discover Bill Withers and tell me about that story. It 707 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:16,279 Speaker 1: was another almost two years before Bill was brought to me. 708 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,719 Speaker 1: I got a phone call from Clarence Avan, a friend 709 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,919 Speaker 1: of Al Bell's. Clarence had sold stacks for Al Bell. 710 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,880 Speaker 1: He had sold stacks to Paramount, and so Al was 711 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: crazy about Clarence Avan. It's Clarence, This Clarence that for 712 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,400 Speaker 1: a long time. We kept our relationship, although I didn't 713 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 1: stay there. And Clarence called and he was very excited 714 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: about this guy in Inglewood that was building airplane toilets 715 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 1: and he was a carpenter and he wanted me to 716 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: listen to his songs. He described him as a songwriter. 717 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: And Bill came out to my ranch in Malibu with 718 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,839 Speaker 1: a big, thick notebook full of songs. And what kind 719 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 1: of guy wasn't a friend of guy? You know, very 720 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: just like he was very happy, jokes, joking, making a 721 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: lot of jokes and kind of assuming, kind of a 722 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 1: little a little like Otis was. But basically U Bill's. 723 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 1: Bill's mentality is that of a carpenter. He's you know, 724 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,840 Speaker 1: he's always looking to build something. He's always done something 725 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 1: in some of his kids houses or changed to something 726 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:18,320 Speaker 1: apartment And secondarily as a songwriter, that's the kind of person. 727 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 1: When we walked into the studio, he asked me, I 728 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: had everything and like to set up. I had drums, baseball, 729 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,800 Speaker 1: people out from Memphis and Readier recorded the songs and 730 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,520 Speaker 1: he says, who's going to sing these songs? And he 731 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,839 Speaker 1: just wanted to be songwriter? No, he saw he saw 732 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:34,800 Speaker 1: himself as a songwriter and a carpenter and saw it 733 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: as a side project. And what was the first song 734 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 1: he sang, ain't know sunshine? Whence he's gone? So how long? 735 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: Did that. How long did it take you to say, Oh, 736 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:48,279 Speaker 1: I think you're really good. I never said that, but 737 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 1: I did. I know that? And now, um, in that 738 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,719 Speaker 1: book he had songs. I didn't get the best. Well, 739 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 1: I got some great ones, but I didn't get lean 740 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,799 Speaker 1: on Me. I didn't get he had all those in 741 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 1: the book. Yeah, and then you produced one of the 742 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,320 Speaker 1: biggest albums of I think all time, which is Willie 743 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 1: Nelson Stardust. How did that come about? That was when 744 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 1: I was living in Maliboe, had of an apartment and 745 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,799 Speaker 1: Willie had rented apartment underneath me, which I had thought 746 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,879 Speaker 1: was empty because I never saw anybody down there. But 747 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,320 Speaker 1: one day I saw him running up the beach. The 748 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,799 Speaker 1: red headed guys looks just like Willie Nelson. What it 749 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,799 Speaker 1: was Willie Nelson, he weighed because he's just a friendly guy. 750 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,319 Speaker 1: Did you know his work by that point, Oh of course, yeah, 751 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,840 Speaker 1: oh yeah, oh yeah, I knew It's read Stranger and everything. Yeah, 752 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 1: And I was so surprised when he turned in and 753 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:39,360 Speaker 1: came into the gate to my unit and he saw me. 754 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: I stayed out there and we realized that we were neighbors, 755 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 1: and that's when we started jamming. At night. You'd come 756 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: up to my deck because I had electric piano right 757 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,440 Speaker 1: by the window, and we jammed there, and the songs 758 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,439 Speaker 1: we jammed on, just messing around with each other were 759 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,480 Speaker 1: the ones that ended up on the Stardust Down. And 760 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: then you, I mean you did you played bass on 761 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 1: Bob Dylan for Knocking on Heaven's Door. Yeah, I was 762 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: a bass player. That was my first real gig in Memphis. 763 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,000 Speaker 1: That was how I got most of my gigs was 764 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,680 Speaker 1: on bass. But you you said earlier you still regard 765 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,040 Speaker 1: yourself as a guitar player. I did. Yeah, I still, Yeah, 766 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,320 Speaker 1: I have. I have guitars all over the house and 767 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 1: all of my studio. So that's the first thing you 768 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 1: kind of think of when you're when you're writing. That's it. 769 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:25,480 Speaker 1: I had a Sarah silvertone. That's me playing a Sarah 770 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 1: silvertone on William Bell's Forgot to Be Your LoVa. Oh really. 771 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 1: You also wrote a great guitar lick which I don't 772 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 1: think enough people know about, which is the opening to 773 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:42,319 Speaker 1: Eddie Floyd's Big Bird, Big Bird. Yeah, that's a fabulous lick. 774 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,120 Speaker 1: You sort of hint in the book that, like the 775 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,520 Speaker 1: guitarists were why don't you stick to the organ like 776 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 1: they didn't they didn't want the competition. Yeah, yeah, exactly, 777 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,480 Speaker 1: that's me on the silvertone. Yeah play that was a 778 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 1: Sears guitar. Yeah. Wow. And then you ended up working 779 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:03,239 Speaker 1: with Neil Young Shanado O'Connor drive by Truckers. He drive 780 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: by Truckers. You did a m you did you read 781 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 1: it a Jackie Wilson song that became a big hit 782 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 1: for Rita Coolie, for Rita Coolidge, who was your sister 783 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,319 Speaker 1: in law at the point at that point, but you 784 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,839 Speaker 1: totally changed that song and it became a big, big hit. Yeah. Yeah, 785 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,960 Speaker 1: I had worked at Jackie Ribinson, Jackie at the Regal 786 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 1: Theater in Chicago. Oh, what an entertainer. He was dynamic 787 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,359 Speaker 1: and that song just but but I often sometimes hear 788 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 1: a song and a new a different arrangement will come 789 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,239 Speaker 1: to me. That's what that was. I had recorded that 790 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:38,680 Speaker 1: on myself and readA heard it and did it okay. 791 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 1: And then you got a new album which is called Time. 792 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,560 Speaker 1: Well it's not called Time's Type, but it's a by 793 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:47,000 Speaker 1: note and it's a companion to the book. Yeah, and 794 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,400 Speaker 1: what inspired you to do that? Well, the chapters are 795 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,919 Speaker 1: the same as the chapter chapter titles of the book. 796 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:56,239 Speaker 1: The songs on the note by note uh because I 797 00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,120 Speaker 1: Love You, which is the first chapter of the book. 798 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:00,560 Speaker 1: And it's the first song I ever played on in 799 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,359 Speaker 1: the studio, played baritone sax on that in the first chapter. 800 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,440 Speaker 1: So it's the first and the last. We made a 801 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,200 Speaker 1: new recording of calls I Love You with Evye McKenney 802 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 1: from the Stax Museum. You know, they have some great 803 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,920 Speaker 1: talent there, this young talents the at Stax Museum and 804 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,000 Speaker 1: Joshua Ladette Ladette and you know some of the American 805 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:23,600 Speaker 1: Idol winners and some of the New Voice winners. Uh. 806 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,160 Speaker 1: And Ty Taylor is on it singing these albums of mine. 807 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:31,359 Speaker 1: And my son ted who is my new accomplice, has 808 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,279 Speaker 1: two two songs on there. He's a he's a he's 809 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,360 Speaker 1: my go to guitarist now and and and songwriter and 810 00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:42,640 Speaker 1: um yeah, it's it's um. It's a composite of of 811 00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 1: of of a lot of the chapters of the book. 812 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 1: Is there more new stuff? Are the people you want 813 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 1: to work with now? Oh? Yeah, there's a new album 814 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:55,120 Speaker 1: coming with Ted Teddy Jones, my son kind of like uh, well, 815 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,719 Speaker 1: every song is different. But on the new album, note 816 00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,440 Speaker 1: by note, there's um, maybe I need saying that we 817 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,120 Speaker 1: wrote together and then that's paralyzed. That's getting a lot 818 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:07,160 Speaker 1: of good airplane now that we moved together. And there's 819 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,640 Speaker 1: a there's a Matt Berninger of the National sent me 820 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,560 Speaker 1: twenty songs a few months ago and we've recorded that 821 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,400 Speaker 1: and I'm really excited about that. A new album for 822 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: him called The Serpent Team Prison and He's which is 823 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:21,920 Speaker 1: out now, isn't it. I know it's not out yet. 824 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:26,080 Speaker 1: We just finished the production on it. But he's just 825 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 1: done a lot of work and written some really great music. 826 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:33,719 Speaker 1: And he's the one that I've worked with on representing 827 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:35,880 Speaker 1: Memphis here in New York with the Roots with Sharon 828 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,799 Speaker 1: Jones that they did that duet together, right, That's where 829 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,360 Speaker 1: we met a good while ago, and we become friends. 830 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:44,319 Speaker 1: And you mentioned this in the book. You know, people 831 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,400 Speaker 1: expect to hear green onions and they expect to hear 832 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,200 Speaker 1: the hits when you see them, and I don't know 833 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,399 Speaker 1: what it's like for you to play them. But there 834 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:56,399 Speaker 1: is a great story about President Obama when you met him. 835 00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,759 Speaker 1: Tell that, Yeah, we were doing uh, especially of the 836 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,880 Speaker 1: Why House, and the president was at the back of 837 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,759 Speaker 1: the house waiting to walk in, and usually bands are 838 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,759 Speaker 1: expected to play Hail to the Chief, and happened to 839 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,600 Speaker 1: be playing green Onions, and he and his wife here 840 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,239 Speaker 1: and the first ladies started walking in, well actually kind 841 00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,719 Speaker 1: of bopping in to green Onions, and that got film, 842 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,400 Speaker 1: that got on tape, and he expressed the preference for 843 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: whenever I was around, to walking into the green onions, right, 844 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:30,279 Speaker 1: rather than Hail to the Chief's beautiful Yeah, that's all. 845 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,879 Speaker 1: Booker T's memoirs out down and be sure to check 846 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,000 Speaker 1: out bookert dot com to see when you can catch 847 00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,920 Speaker 1: him and his band on the road. You can check 848 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,040 Speaker 1: out some more of his music by visiting broken record 849 00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,480 Speaker 1: podcast dot com, where we have a playlist available for 850 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:47,680 Speaker 1: you to listen to, and while you're there, sign up 851 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,720 Speaker 1: for a behind the scenes newsletter. Broken Record is produced 852 00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:53,239 Speaker 1: with help from Jason Gambrell, Meal Bell, and Leo Rose 853 00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,480 Speaker 1: for Pushkin Industries. A theme music is by Kenny Beats. 854 00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,680 Speaker 1: Stay tuned for next week's episode with Richard Russell Xcel 855 00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 1: Record Audience. I'm just richly thanks for listening. M