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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 2: This is Buried Bones. Hey, Paul, have you been thinking

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Speaker 2: about this case all week? You love a good serial

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Speaker 2: killer case.

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Speaker 3: I know, I actually have. I mean, this is a

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Speaker 3: fascinating case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it is. Let me go ahead and do a

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Speaker 2: quick summary so we can get back into it. So

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Speaker 2: we have a story that's set in nineteen seventy one,

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Speaker 2: California in Uba City, and there are a series of

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Speaker 2: men who have been found brutally murdered with it looks

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Speaker 2: like a meat cleaver knife. It seems like it's cutting devices, beaten,

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Speaker 2: just in terrible shape and they've been found in what

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Speaker 2: I describe as shallow graves, but you say it is

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Speaker 2: pretty impressive six foot by two to three feet deep.

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Speaker 2: And they're in orchards, and they're almost all exclusively you know, transients,

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Speaker 2: people who work on the orchards, people who don't have

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Speaker 2: families that are following up if they go missing. And

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Speaker 2: so far we have these bodies found in two different orchards,

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Speaker 2: and the consistency is the brutality of the way they

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Speaker 2: were killed. That they are transients, they're all white men,

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Speaker 2: they all seem to be sort of the same age range,

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Speaker 2: I mean forties, fifties and sixties. And you know, there's

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Speaker 2: there's some interesting characteristics that you've picked up on. So

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Speaker 2: do you want to talk about that where we've got

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Speaker 2: twelve victims one assault that happened a year before. That

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Speaker 2: will be key for us, But do you want to

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Speaker 2: talk about some of the special circumstances around here that

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Speaker 2: are making you come to a particular conclusion so far.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think when you take a look at all

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Speaker 3: twelve cases of homicide, the victimology is the same. You know,

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Speaker 3: you have white males, they all appear to be older.

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Speaker 3: These are not you know, teenage boys or younger adults

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Speaker 3: that are being killed. These white males are generally transient.

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Speaker 3: They don't appear to have any real financial assets, so,

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Speaker 3: you know, robbery, financial gain as a matter of committing

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Speaker 3: these crimes does not appear to be the offender's motive.

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Speaker 3: The offender is specifically utilizing orchards to dispose of the bodies,

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Speaker 3: which is interesting because there could be many places, you know,

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Speaker 3: that the offender could go that are much more remote,

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Speaker 3: probably even easier to dispose of the bodies. So there's

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Speaker 3: something about the orchards that the offender is comfortable with,

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Speaker 3: or maybe he's sending a message, you know, whatever, whatever

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Speaker 3: it is, the way all of these victims are killed

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Speaker 3: appears to be reasonably consistent from one case to another.

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Speaker 3: A knife or other sharp edged weapons such as a

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Speaker 3: meet kleefer has been used in each instance. There's some beating,

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Speaker 3: there's some bludgeoning. There's also, at least in one case

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Speaker 3: you mentioned, there was strangulation, you know, But fundamentally, you know,

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Speaker 3: it all appears to be within the same range of

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Speaker 3: violence inflicted on these victims. The victims' bodies are being

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Speaker 3: disposed of in gray sites, and you know, these are

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Speaker 3: not what I would classify as the typical shallow grave.

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Speaker 3: You know, when you say that these grave sites are

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Speaker 3: three feet or three and a half feet down, the

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Speaker 3: offender is having to dig that that takes time. That's

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Speaker 3: a lot of earth to move. And I don't know

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Speaker 3: how compact the you know, the soil is in these locations,

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Speaker 3: but in my experience is that, you know, once you

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Speaker 3: get down eighteen inches, it becomes harder and harder because

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Speaker 3: the dirt becomes so compact. Most offenders give up after

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Speaker 3: about eighteen inches. In at least one case, there is

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Speaker 3: evidence that the victim had been killed on the orchard. There's,

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Speaker 3: you know, a bloody area that the offender had tried

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Speaker 3: to cover up, and then there was what I imagine was

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Speaker 3: either a dragged or dripped blood trail that went fifteen

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Speaker 3: yards over to the grave site. And though the other

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Speaker 3: cases don't seem to have that evidence, that doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: that the offender didn't do that. He may have just

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Speaker 3: been better at covering up what I would call the

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Speaker 3: homicide scene versus the body disposal location. The pattern is consistent.

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Speaker 3: Some of these victims are showing their clothing lower body

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Speaker 3: clothing their genital area being exposed. This is where I'm

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Speaker 3: keying in on. Okay, there's a sexual motivation to these crimes,

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Speaker 3: even though some of the victims are fully clothed. But

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Speaker 3: I've talked multiple times about how offenders either will redress

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Speaker 3: their victims or allow the victims to redress before they're killed.

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Speaker 3: And then in the very first case of homicide, you have,

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Speaker 3: whether it be a pamphlet or some sort of document

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Speaker 3: that the detective described as homosexual literature. So you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm still not sure what to make of that from

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Speaker 3: a is this something that the offender planted or is

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Speaker 3: this something that that particular victim had, And maybe there

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Speaker 3: was a solicitation that occurred, and the offender is a

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Speaker 3: serial predator, or the offender is sending a message if

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Speaker 3: the offender is planting that type of literature. But I

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Speaker 3: think it goes without saying this offender is male. This

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Speaker 3: offender is attacking other males. There's a sexual component to

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Speaker 3: these homicides. There's no financial motivation. And all the homicide

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Speaker 3: victims that have been discovered to date are white males.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about the one victim who isn't white,

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Speaker 2: and he's the survivor and not someone who's been buried

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Speaker 2: of course on an orchard. And I just want to

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Speaker 2: remind everybody the details because this assault that happens at

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Speaker 2: this bar, cafe restaurant is something that's really key here.

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Speaker 2: So remember that happened February twenty fifth of nineteen seventy

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Speaker 2: in the middle of the night one am, Jose Romero

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Speaker 2: Rea was beaten in a bathroom in the Guadalajara restaurant

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Speaker 2: cafe and you know, so brutal and awful. So we

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Speaker 2: now go back to nineteen seventy where that attack happened

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Speaker 2: to Jose, and you know he barely survives. It happens

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Speaker 2: in a bathroom. It's owned by a man. This cafe

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Speaker 2: is owned by a man named Natividad Corona. And it

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Speaker 2: sounds like and Natividad is the one who called in

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Speaker 2: the tip because according to him, the person who attacked

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Speaker 2: this man Jose in the bathroom was Natividad's half brother,

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Speaker 2: whose name was Juan Corona. So he's thirty six years old,

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Speaker 2: he's from Mexico originally, and he is very very unstable

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Speaker 2: according to his brother. So the sequence of events is

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Speaker 2: that Natividad has always been sort of wary of him,

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Speaker 2: even though he said, you can come live with me

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Speaker 2: or live in the area where I am, I can

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Speaker 2: give you work. He's been supportive. But in nineteen fifty five,

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Speaker 2: so this is sixteen years ago, Natividad petitioned for Wan

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Speaker 2: to be committed to a state mental hospital. And here's why.

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Speaker 2: After a flood that had drowned thirty eight people in

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Speaker 2: Sutter County that year, Natividad said that Wan became paranoid

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Speaker 2: and he became delusional. He believed Wan believed that all

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Speaker 2: people in the county had died in this flood and

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Speaker 2: they were basically coming back as zombies walking the streets,

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Speaker 2: and he reacted violently and he was having fits of rage.

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Speaker 2: And so in fifty six he was committed to the

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Speaker 2: de Witt State Hospital in Auburn, Californa. Now, before we

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Speaker 2: get into that, so let me get your reaction here.

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Speaker 2: So Wan is the man who nearly killed this man

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Speaker 2: jose Y're earlier and we'll find out more about Wan.

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Speaker 2: And as you can guess, yes, he has access to

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Speaker 2: all of this property where these migrant workers are. Now,

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Speaker 2: the thought is it's not necessarily who did it, because

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Speaker 2: I think it's pretty clear it's Wan. It's why and

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Speaker 2: what do we believe? Because you've come up with what

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Speaker 2: I think is a very fair safe assessment of the

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Speaker 2: motivations of this killer, you know, sexual and motivation. Obviously

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Speaker 2: it's not robbery, it's some kind of gratification. But Wan's

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Speaker 2: family and Wan and his defensive attorneys are going to

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Speaker 2: say that's not it. It's completely different. So that's I

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Speaker 2: think where we're headed. But tell me what you think

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Speaker 2: so far.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well, you know it's it's interesting because I am

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Speaker 3: aware of the Wan Corona case. I never paid attention

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Speaker 3: to it. I know the lab that I used to

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Speaker 3: work for out of the Contracosta County Sheriff's office, they

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Speaker 3: either did some work on the Corona case or had

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Speaker 3: consulted on the Corona case way back when, right when

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Speaker 3: this thing was happening, when bodies were being recovered. But interesting,

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Speaker 3: going back to Jose's attack and Natividad is saying that

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Speaker 3: it was one that did the attack. One Corona did

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Speaker 3: the attack on Jose in the men's restroom. You know,

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Speaker 3: that's it's interesting, and you have provided the detail that

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Speaker 3: I guess rumors had it that Natividad was homosexual, and

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Speaker 3: so you know, I wonder if Natividad permitted certain homosexual

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Speaker 3: activities to occur amongst men in the restroom at that restaurant.

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Speaker 3: You know, back in the day, I've got at least

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Speaker 3: two vice operations that were focused in on men's restrooms

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Speaker 3: because that was sort of the hookup locations. And so

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Speaker 3: I'm kind of extrapolating backwards in time, if you will,

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Speaker 3: in terms of where men could engage in sexual activity

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Speaker 3: with other men. And is there something that happened between

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Speaker 3: Jose and Natividad that Wan took exception to or did

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Speaker 3: Wan approach Jose, you know, whether it was out in

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Speaker 3: the restaurant or he followed him back into the restroom

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Speaker 3: and then things went sideways. And then obviously, if Wan's

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Speaker 3: the offender in that case, which sounds like he is,

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Speaker 3: he's armed, and that may just be part of him.

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Speaker 3: You know. I think part of it is when did

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Speaker 3: Wan come into the country. He may have other cases

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Speaker 3: down in Mexico. And I've seen this where you have

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Speaker 3: serial predators that come up into the country and they

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Speaker 3: just continue committing the same crimes they were doing down

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Speaker 3: in Mexico, but authorities up in the United States have

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Speaker 3: no idea. You know that these guys are serial predators.

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Speaker 3: So that's, you know, one of the thoughts that I have.

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Speaker 3: And then you get into the psychiatric assessment, where now

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Speaker 3: natividad is indicating that after this flood Sutter County, thirty

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Speaker 3: eight people killed, that that one became paranoid and violent,

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Speaker 3: and you know, generally this would be indicative of what

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Speaker 3: I would call the psychotic offender. And the psychotic offender

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Speaker 3: is truly mentally ill and for whatever their mindset is,

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Speaker 3: you know, they are resorting to violence. And the most

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Speaker 3: notable example I can give is the vampire killer out

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Speaker 3: of Sacramento, Richard Trenton Chase. Truly a psychotic offender, and

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Speaker 3: it's a horrific series of crimes that he committed. The

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Speaker 3: problem that I'm running into is the crimes in the orchards.

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Speaker 3: There is an organized element to these crimes. They are

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Speaker 3: pre planned. The offender is covering up for his crimes.

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Speaker 3: He's burying the bodies, select purposely selecting victims that really

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Speaker 3: aren't going to be missed, nobody's going to report them.

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Speaker 3: He is showing a level of mental acuity that I

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Speaker 3: would not attribute to a psychotic offender. So I call

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Speaker 3: into question Natividad's assessment of his half brother. He's not

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Speaker 3: an expert, you know. This is where I want a

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Speaker 3: true forensic psychiatrist doing an assessment of wand to determine

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Speaker 3: is there a mental issue there. He sounds like an

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Speaker 3: organized serial predator that is completely aware of right versus

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Speaker 3: wrong and is committing crimes that he wants to commit.

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Speaker 2: Well, we have several routes to go, and you tell

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Speaker 2: me what's the most efficient way. I can skip down

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Speaker 2: into details from the trial that explains Natividad's activities. If

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Speaker 2: that feeds it all into some sort of I don't know,

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Speaker 2: anti homosexual rage or whatever that would be. But you know,

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Speaker 2: he's not simply a gay man. There's other stuff that happens.

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Speaker 2: And I can also tell you that in fifty three,

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Speaker 2: nineteen fifty three, when jan was eighteen, then he immigrated

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Speaker 2: from illegally from Mexico to California. So when you were

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Speaker 2: asking about Mexico, is there anything happening back in Mexico,

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Speaker 2: he was eighteen, so you know when he came to California, sure,

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Speaker 2: and he followed Natividad. They were very close.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: We also have more bodies. I will tell you a

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Speaker 2: total of twenty five. And we also have sort of

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Speaker 2: the way he was busted. To begin with, he has

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Speaker 2: a wife and kids, so it sounds like his brother

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Speaker 2: had called and tipped off the police in fifty six.

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Speaker 2: So one followed Natividad here in fifty three when he

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Speaker 2: was eighteen. So in nineteen fifty six, Natividad has him committed.

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Speaker 2: He went to the de Witt State Hospital in Auburn, California,

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Speaker 2: and he was giving thorizine and shock treatment until he

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Speaker 2: was quote unquote cured. It didn't work well, obviously not.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like it pissed him off even more.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, this is where you know thorizine is

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Speaker 3: basically a sedative, you know, and of course you see

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Speaker 3: these electroshock treatments, you know, basically barbaric types of treatments

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Speaker 3: for people that are suffering from mental health issues within

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Speaker 3: these types of settings. I've heard of the DeWitt State Hospital.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure it still exists. Of course, I'm very

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Speaker 3: familiar with Auburn, California, But I mean we are talking

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Speaker 3: this is now fifteen years before these cases there in Uba.

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Speaker 3: You have Natividad is the one that is basically saying

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Speaker 3: Wan has got mental issues and the state takes them

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Speaker 3: in and then starts giving him these treatments. Right, this

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Speaker 3: is where you know what type of professional evaluation had

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Speaker 3: actually occurred on Wan during this timeframe. And how old

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Speaker 3: is Wan at this point to see in his early twenties.

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Speaker 2: He is twenty one when he's committed to DeWitt.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So on one hand, the paranoia aspect, you know,

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Speaker 3: this is where I start wondering, is he starting to

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Speaker 3: develop schizophrenia? Which early twe is when you start to

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Speaker 3: see some of those types of symptoms. I just have

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Speaker 3: trouble resolving somebody who was suffering from schizophrenia, And then

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Speaker 3: fifteen years later is what I would consider a very

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Speaker 3: organized offender. That's where I'm questioning the early assessment of

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Speaker 3: Wan's mental health.

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Speaker 2: Well, and let me tell you about the next fifteen years.

255
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Speaker 2: So he gets down in fifty six, He got out

256
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Speaker 2: the same year that he was committed. After his release,

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Speaker 2: he seems to get it together. He became a licensed

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Speaker 2: labor contractor. He was hiring mostly Mexican migrant laborers to

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Speaker 2: staff all of these orchards and farms, and some of

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Speaker 2: these workers have been hired to tend to the peach orchard, right,

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Speaker 2: so you know Jan has access. Obviously, he also contracted

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Speaker 2: labor for Sullivan Ranch, and for that job he drove

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Speaker 2: a nineteen seventy one cheval panel van yellowish color, as

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Speaker 2: we suspected, I mean, I will tell you, of course,

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Speaker 2: they say it matched the mold, the track, mouldeds or

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Speaker 2: the mood point at this point. Okay, so they think

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Speaker 2: that they have enough information to charge one Corona with

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Speaker 2: this with at least one of these crimes. So they

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Speaker 2: surprise him early morning, May twenty six. So the first

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Speaker 2: body was discovered on the nineteenth, so this is pretty quick.

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Speaker 2: This is seven days. They find twenty seven items. They

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Speaker 2: grab him, find twenty seven items. There, two foot rusty

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Speaker 2: crowbar with some possible blood stains, a pothole digger with

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Speaker 2: possible blood stains, mud and hair on digging portion, two

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Speaker 2: pairs of men's shorts, and a leather bag, one with

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Speaker 2: blood stains. Two and a half foot wooden club with

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Speaker 2: possible blood stains. There was an axe, a hatchet, a hoth,

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Speaker 2: three butcher knives, a meat cleaver, and a bolo machete.

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Speaker 2: Got I mean this is beyond a kill kid. But

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Speaker 2: they also take six nine millimeter luger shells, some business papers,

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Speaker 2: check stubs, a checkbook, in a ledger, and the ledger,

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Speaker 2: they said, will become known as the murder book. So

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Speaker 2: they pounded the van as well as an Impula sedan.

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Speaker 2: They find red hair in the trunk, black belt and

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Speaker 2: to throw rugs, and they find red stains that they

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Speaker 2: think could be blood. One sample of a red stain

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Speaker 2: from the rear of the van. They confiscate rubber boots

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Speaker 2: from the van, and I think the red hair is

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Speaker 2: significant just because it doesn't belong in their car. It

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Speaker 2: sounds like and they're trying to connect all of these victims.

291
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Speaker 2: At the Sullivan ranch, they confiscate two knives. One is

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Speaker 2: an eight inch blade stamped Tennessee toothpick Okay, has blood

293
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Speaker 2: stains on the guard, and then the last inch of

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Speaker 2: the blade has two hooks that are designed to tear

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Speaker 2: the bottom of a wound.

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Speaker 3: What I'm envisioning is, yet you have a blade and

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Speaker 3: then you have sort of these ancillary hooks at the

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Speaker 3: base of the blade. So if you stab that knife

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Speaker 3: all the way in, Let's say you're hunting or you're

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Speaker 3: committing a homicide. If you get that knife blade down

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Speaker 3: in there, you're able to maybe even twist the knife,

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Speaker 3: and then those hooks are going to grab the margins,

303
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Speaker 3: and you're in essence doing more damage to the wound itself,

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Speaker 3: maybe to increase the lethality of that stab.

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Speaker 2: That's awful. And and then moving on, there's a hunting

306
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Speaker 2: knife and there is also a nine millimeter Browning automatic pistol.

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Speaker 2: Everything has blood on it. Now we haven't heard about

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Speaker 2: anybody being shot yet, but it's all covered in blood.

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Speaker 2: So he gets arrested.

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Speaker 3: Of course, I would say contrary to my initial assessment.

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Speaker 3: You know, the fact that he's got all of this stuff,

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Speaker 3: all this evidence in his possession or under his control

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Speaker 3: some capacity. It's bloody. He's not getting rid of it,

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Speaker 3: he's not hiding it. It can be easily traced back

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Speaker 3: to him. That in my mind, is you know, suggestive

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Speaker 3: of somebody that's really not thinking everything through. And this

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Speaker 3: is where I kind of go. It's technically it's it's

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Speaker 3: it's now an antiquated model that the FBI's original behavioral

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Speaker 3: analysis unit used to use. But the organized versus the

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Speaker 3: disorganized defender, and you know, you're truly psychotic. Offender like

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Speaker 3: a Richard Trenton Chase is disorganized. It's he's not even

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Speaker 3: trying to do any type of self preservation. He's just

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Speaker 3: wandering around and killing people. An organized offender is somebody

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Speaker 3: like a Ted Bundy who is trying to commit crimes,

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Speaker 3: is planning the crimes, is getting away with the crimes,

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Speaker 3: is covering up, you know, trying to you know, keep

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Speaker 3: offending and not getting caught. I would say that Onuan

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Speaker 3: Corona is demonstrating what's considered mixed. He's got some disorganized aspects,

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Speaker 3: all these bloody weapons and other items of physical evidence

330
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Speaker 3: that he's not getting rid of or trying to hide

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Speaker 3: or anything. But then he is showing a level of

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Speaker 3: planning as as well as you know, trying to cover

333
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Speaker 3: his tracks, you know, in terms of victim selection and

334
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Speaker 3: disposal of the victim's bodies, et cetera. So he's probably

335
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Speaker 3: falling into this mixed defender category.

336
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 2: Well, when he's arrested as public defender arranges for him

337
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 2: to be examined by a guy named doctor Joseph Catan.

338
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Speaker 2: So his defense attorney arranges for him to be examined

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Speaker 2: by this psychiatrist who's from Los Altos and his name

340
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Speaker 2: is doctor Joseph Canton. He says that Onan Corona has

341
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Speaker 2: continued to hallucinate, and he says that one has schizoid

342
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Speaker 2: personality disorder, and other psychiatrists say that he has a psychosis,

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Speaker 2: schizophrenia and paranoia. So that's the defense, and then of

344
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,120
Speaker 2: course it prosecutor has a whole other idea.

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Speaker 3: And this is where with other cases you have a

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Speaker 3: true psychotic offender, and I use the term psychotic indicating

347
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Speaker 3: there is a real and significant mental illness going on,

348
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Speaker 3: where now you have a defense of insanity. This person

349
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,400
Speaker 3: does not know right from wrong. Those types of individuals

350
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Speaker 3: when they commit crimes, it's very obvious they are completely

351
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Speaker 3: out of it. There is no attempt to cover up

352
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Speaker 3: their tracks. That's not what we're seeing with Juan Corona.

353
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Speaker 3: That's where I'm having a problem with that type of assessment.

354
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Speaker 3: I think Corona knows right from wrong. Why is he

355
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Speaker 3: burying the bodies because he wants to hide what he

356
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 3: has done. He knows it's wrong. I don't doubt that

357
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:03,679
Speaker 3: there's maybe there's a level of some mental health aspects,

358
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Speaker 3: but he is not on the order of a truly

359
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,640
Speaker 3: disorganized psychotic offender.

360
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 2: Okay, well, let's see what the defense has to say. First,

361
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,120
Speaker 2: we do have some more information from the field, because

362
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 2: they're of course continuing to search. There's another tip back

363
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 2: on the first ranch, the Peach ranch. They had seen

364
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,199
Speaker 2: Corona one Corona around this area. Of course, you know

365
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 2: he was there, I'm sure all the time because he's

366
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,919
Speaker 2: hiring workers. But they had actually seen him near the

367
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 2: peach tree orchard around ten o'clock one night in January

368
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 2: of seventy one. And you know, this is like maybe

369
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 2: really specifically kind of scoping out stuff. But also we

370
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 2: have so many bodies total of twenty five. I told

371
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 2: you that we don't even know when he would have

372
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 2: started this, so that might have been the first night,

373
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Speaker 2: we don't know. They find two more graves belonging to

374
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Speaker 2: a fifty five year old man and a fifty four

375
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 2: year old man in the northern part of the peachtree orchards.

376
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Speaker 2: One of the two men, his body is buried with

377
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 2: scattered trash like grass clippings, fabric, broken mirror, child stocking, glassholders,

378
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 2: anything like that. Now, Paul, one last thing, there are

379
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 2: bank deposit slips addressed to one Corona in this man's

380
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 2: grave that they find June fourth.

381
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 3: All right, so these are one coronas it's his bank account.

382
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Speaker 2: Bank deposit slips. That could be an accident.

383
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 3: Well, that'd be my first thought, you know, because you

384
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 3: throw a body in the trunk of a Chevy van

385
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 3: or I shouldn't say trunk, put the back of a

386
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 3: Chevy van, you pull the body out, the body's been bleeding,

387
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 3: you know, Yeah, things stuck to the bloody aspects of

388
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 3: the body, and those things could be bank deposit slips

389
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 3: that I imagine one Corona is not the neatest individual,

390
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 3: and the back of this van probably look like a junkyard.

391
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 3: He's probably completely unaware that he's leaving basically his ID card.

392
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 3: You know, I'm the killer with this body. There's a

393
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 3: long shot chance that he purposely left those sort of

394
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 3: as a taunt. You'll never catch me. But you basically

395
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 3: just made law enforcement's job very easy by having your

396
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 3: name and bank account with the body. So I don't know,

397
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 3: I think it's more accidental.

398
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 2: It sounds accidental because he actually seemed to have done

399
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 2: a decent job covering it up, you know, I mean,

400
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 2: it was lucky that they found this shallow grave to

401
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 2: begin with on the first one, and it just sort

402
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 2: of went one to the other to the other. But

403
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 2: he's going to be charged with first degree murder for

404
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: twenty five murders, and who knows how many others there

405
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 2: are out there. So the trial starts September eleventh, nineteen

406
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 2: seventy two. So listen to this. I hadn't heard this before.

407
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 2: So he is with a defense attorneyamed Richard Hawk, who

408
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: is really well known, and he gets the public defender

409
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 2: booted out and he steps in. In exchange for Hawk,

410
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 2: the defense attorney being given exclusive literary dramatic rights to

411
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 2: one Corona's story. So he gets a kick ass lawyer,

412
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 2: but you know, he's selling all of his rights, which

413
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: I'm sure at that point one was going, you can

414
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 2: do whatever you want. Sure they moved the trial because

415
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 2: Richard Hawk, the defense attorney, says there's a lot of

416
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: anti Mexican sentiment in Ubis City. So it goes to Fairfield, California,

417
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 2: which is seventy five miles away.

418
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 3: I know Fairfield very well.

419
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 2: There, well, I imagine you know most of those places very well.

420
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 3: There you go, I lived in Fairfield at one point.

421
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 3: He did. And yeah, and the town I lived in, Vacaville,

422
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 3: is a twin city to Fairfield. I was in Fairfield

423
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 3: all the time.

424
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 2: Well then, I don't know if it's the same courthouse,

425
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 2: but he was there, it would be well, this seems

426
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: like an open and shutcase. It does to you and I.

427
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: But the prosecutor has made a lot of missteps unfortunately,

428
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 2: the biggest issue is that all the evidence going into

429
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 2: trial is circumstantial in nature. But they do not test

430
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 2: the blood on any of Corona's knives for a match

431
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: with any of the victims, even a blood typing match.

432
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 2: You know, they don't do any of that. So he

433
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: could have said, I killed all kinds of animals. What

434
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 2: are you going to do about it? You know, And

435
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 2: they didn't find things with him that were souvenirs I

436
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 2: don't think of the victims or whatever. So there was

437
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 2: an issue there, and that's what when the prosecutor's starting

438
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 2: to get nervous. They also don't turn in some reports

439
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 2: to the defense, and you know, that becomes a problem.

440
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 2: There are a lot of mix ups. They're having a

441
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 2: really hard problem. And I had to talk to Alison,

442
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 2: the researcher about this because it was confusing to both

443
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 2: of us. So everybody is mislabeling these victims. We have

444
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: several John Doe's, and they can't figure out sh should

445
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 2: we be labeling them in the order that they were

446
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 2: found or the order that we think they were killed,

447
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 2: the circumstances, or the different orchards. So even though that

448
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 2: seems kind of stuper and in silly with a jury

449
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: and with a judge, it's problematic because it looks so

450
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 2: haphazard and it's confusing to people.

451
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 3: Well, you know, this is where you know, the da

452
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 3: is going to charge murder in those cases that they

453
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 3: feel that they can prove murder. And so you have

454
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 3: all these victims, and so the question that I would

455
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 3: be wondering, because I know nothing about how they proceeded

456
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 3: with prosecution, is that did they charge all of what

457
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 3: was it twenty five, twenty six.

458
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: Twenty five with first degree murder?

459
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 3: So so they have twenty five first degree murder charges.

460
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 3: But these cases all have a spectrum of evidence from

461
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 3: probably none to significant like a bank deposit with Juan

462
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 3: Corona's name and bank account on there. Yep, you know,

463
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 3: so this is where you know, maybe there was a

464
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 3: misstep on the prosecutor's office going, well, we know that

465
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 3: he did all of of these. But the problem is

466
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 3: is that each murder has to stand by itself, and

467
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 3: that may be where that I mean, when you charge

468
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 3: a very very weak murder case in a series like this,

469
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 3: well that gives the defense an opening and if they

470
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 3: can you know, basically undo the jurors confidence that one

471
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 3: was involved in let's say John Doe number two, then

472
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 3: they can make an argument, well, hell can we trust

473
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 3: the prosecution and what they're presenting in these other cases?

474
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 2: Well, this is I mean, for lack of a better term,

475
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 2: a complete fuck up from beginning to end. You're right,

476
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: they have so much evidence twenty five I guess if

477
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 2: you want to be specific, different crime scenes. You know,

478
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 2: all these different graves. They mix everything up. They remove

479
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 2: the fingertips as part of biological evidence from I don't

480
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: know if it's all the victims, but several of them.

481
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: They totally screw that up. They can't figure out who

482
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 2: what fingertips go with what body. At this point, they

483
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: lose I know, so it gets worse. They lose the

484
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 2: cast of the tracks taken near the first grave site.

485
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 2: Remember it was truck tracks, which to me, is not

486
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 2: make or break, but it's indicative of how sloppy this is,

487
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 2: and it's not going to look good for a judge

488
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 2: and jury. They miss label shoe prints, sumerm pressings, they

489
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: mislabel those casts. The forensic details once they're brought into

490
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 2: the case don't seem particularly damning. So what they're saying

491
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 2: is that the cigarette butt found in one of the

492
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 2: men's graves. They applied a little known technique in typing

493
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 2: dried blood to bodily fluids other than blood like saliva.

494
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 3: So I did this work, you know, very early on

495
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 3: in my career. You know, the ABO testing and like

496
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 3: for blood bank aspects, you can go ahead and do

497
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 3: your ABO testing directly from the blood, but when you

498
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 3: start dealing with dried stains, you now have to do techniques.

499
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 3: And if it's a blood stain, we would do what

500
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 3: it's called an absorption ellusion technique in order to be

501
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 3: able to determine the ABO type. Something like with semen,

502
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 3: we would have to go to an absorption inhibition. So

503
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 3: it's without going into details, and quite frankly, I'm not

504
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 3: sure I could get into the details because it's very esoteric,

505
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 3: you know, it's been too long since I've been there,

506
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 3: but it's somewhat of an indirect way of determining the

507
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 3: ABO type of a person who secretes their ABO substance

508
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 3: into their semen or their saliva. So this technique, this

509
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 3: is it was evolving in the nineteen seventies. I was

510
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 3: doing it in nineteen ninety four, you know, so it

511
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 3: was a little bit more mature what I was doing

512
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 3: at versus the forensic scientists who are doing it back

513
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 3: in the day. And you know, quite frankly, you know

514
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 3: the training program, the competency aspect of what they were doing.

515
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 3: I tell agencies today, you know that have cases from

516
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 3: this era, I say, you absolutely just throw out the

517
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 3: old what would call conventional zerology testing. Don't worry about

518
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 3: what they found on their ABO testing, you know, the

519
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 3: whatever technique they used or secrete a status aspect, just

520
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 3: use modern DNA if you still have evidence.

521
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, well listen to what doctor Ruth guy says, and

522
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 2: you tell me what you think. So they have established

523
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 2: that this is a technique they're going to use. She

524
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: said she was able to determine the ABO blood type

525
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: of the smoker who they presumed as the killer, which

526
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's a gimme or not. It

527
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 2: was a butt that was found in the grave, But

528
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 2: what if he used dirt that had the butt already

529
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 2: in it?

530
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 3: Right.

531
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 2: She testified that she was able to determine the ABO

532
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 2: blood type of the smoker if they were among seventy

533
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: percent of the population known as secrets. A cigarette was

534
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 2: smoked by someone who had an O type blood, and

535
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: neither the person who was in the grave or one

536
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 2: Corona had OH. They were both A. And there was

537
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 2: blood on the gun barrel. You know, there was only

538
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 2: one person who was shot, and the blood on the

539
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 2: gun barrel was type of OH. And the guy who

540
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 2: was shot was a type A. So they're coming up

541
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 2: with these things and none of it points to one

542
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 2: Corona except you have the weapons.

543
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 3: Yes, Well, as I just mentioned, I don't put any

544
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 3: weight on that ABO testing at all. And when you

545
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 3: start talking about type O, I mean that throws in

546
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 3: a whole other can of worms. In terms of interpreting

547
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 3: these types of results, I mean it sounds like with

548
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 3: things being mislabeled, things being lost, you have csis in

549
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 3: over their head. You know, this is an unusual case.

550
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 3: I mean, think about the number of grave sites, the

551
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 3: number of bodies that they're finding in rapid order. I've

552
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 3: never worked a case like that, and I've got more

553
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 3: experience than most, you know, across the nation in terms

554
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 3: of big cases and complex cases. And then you think

555
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 3: about a smaller agency, you know, and often Uba is

556
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,879
Speaker 3: serviced by California DOJ. You know, so that's the laboratory

557
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 3: system that it's a statewide laboratory system that Yuba would

558
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 3: be using. And the California DOJ has krimliss and very

559
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 3: experienced krimalists that go out to help these smaller agencies,

560
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 3: you know. So part of my assessment on what went

561
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 3: wrong in terms of the evidence in this case, did

562
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 3: they pull in the state level krimlis on this or

563
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 3: were they relying on Uba Sheriff's CSIS or Yuba City csis?

564
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 3: You know, small county, small town, and they're in over

565
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 3: their heads. But even if you bring in the state,

566
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 3: you're kind of inventing as you go along, you know,

567
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 3: so you could be very experienced. Doesn't necessarily excuse some

568
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 3: of the mislabeling or loss of evidence, you know, that

569
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 3: shouldn't happen. I think right now this is where trying

570
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:28,919
Speaker 3: to assess the prosecution's case. It's getting to where they

571
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 3: were dealing with what they had back in the nineteen

572
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 3: seventies and to present to a jury. You know, this

573
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 3: innovative ABO testing off of saliva from cigarette butts that

574
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 3: I will tell you probably was not adequately validated compared

575
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 3: to how scientific methodologies in forensic labs are validated today.

576
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 3: I just put no weight on it, you know. And

577
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 3: it's a creator status, a golden State killer. I went

578
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 3: to the very first Task Force Media being back in

579
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 3: twenty eleven when we reconvened down in Santa Barbara, and

580
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 3: I told them all these guys that were eliminated based

581
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 3: on secreator's status back in the nineteen seventies, throw it out,

582
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 3: you know, let's track them down again and get a

583
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 3: sample that we can do modern DNA on. So that's

584
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 3: you know, that's that's what's you know, kind of catching

585
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 3: my attention. I mean, I think there's you know, there's

586
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 3: no question that one Corona is the killer in this case.

587
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 3: It's now, okay, what did the investigative aspect do right?

588
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 3: What did they do wrong? How strong was the people's

589
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 3: case against one Corona? And how did the defense, you know,

590
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 3: attack that case, that strategy? What was the defense's strategy?

591
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 2: Okay, here we go. The prosecutor cannot give him motive,

592
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: so he closes by basically saying that a team of

593
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 2: ten psychiatrists could work years on a man who has

594
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 2: done something just like this and still not come up

595
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 2: with the answer. We know, Juri's love hearing a shit

596
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 2: like that. We don't know what happened.

597
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I want to point out, I mean, at

598
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 3: the time of this case, the term serial killer had

599
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 3: never been used. So this is where you know, they

600
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 3: had the term lust killer, you know, going back at

601
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 3: least the nineteen fifties, where you know, investigators understood that

602
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 3: there was a type of predator out there that was

603
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 3: sexually motivated. But now in this particular case where I

604
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 3: mean it's obvious to me, but for them, you know,

605
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 3: they couldn't go after the evidence and say, you have

606
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 3: these mens whose genitalia are exposed and everything else. It'd

607
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 3: be a simple collection technique and doing DNA is showing

608
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 3: oh there was sexual interaction between one Corona and this victim.

609
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 3: But they didn't have that, and they didn't understand truly

610
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 3: what the serial predator was until you had you know,

611
00:38:54,880 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 3: the fbis this is John Douglas, Bob Wrestler, doctor Anne Burgess,

612
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 3: and I've got all their books behind me. You know.

613
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 3: This is where authorities just really didn't understand the serial

614
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 3: predator in the early nineteen seventies. And so for a

615
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 3: prosecutor to say, well, we don't know what the motive is,

616
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 3: it's obvious what the motive is. You know, there's a

617
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 3: sexual component, there's a fantasy component, and there may have

618
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 3: been a mission oriented component with one Corona.

619
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you, the defense really goes after

620
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 2: one Corona's brother. Okay, so this is a switch up here.

621
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 2: So you know, Natividad was the one who turned in

622
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 2: or tipped to the sheriff off that his brother had

623
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 2: just attacked this man terribly in his cafe a year earlier.

624
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 2: So here's what the defense says.

625
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 3: And this is a smart strategy.

626
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 2: The number one thing is they said, this prosecutor has

627
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 2: no idea what he's doing. They're incompetent. And you know,

628
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 2: there were some witnesses who said some of these men

629
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 2: were definitely getting into one Corona's truck, except the witnesses

630
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 2: were off with the color, and he had a couple

631
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 2: of different kinds of vehicles. So you know, they meticulously

632
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 2: went through each witness and essentially discredited what the witnesses said,

633
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 2: and of course the finger tip mixups and everything else.

634
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 2: But here's the big thing. The new information that they

635
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 2: had not heard yet was that they are taking the

636
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 2: suspicion off of one and putting it on Natividad. And

637
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: what they say is because several victims pants were down

638
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 2: and their penises were exposed. The defense attorney Hawk says,

639
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 2: the killer was what's called pasevo homosexual And there is

640
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 2: an expert who is going to take the stand, who's

641
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 2: an expert on homosexuality, who's a doctor, and this is

642
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 2: what mister Hawk says. The expert, Evelyn Hooker, who's this doctor,

643
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 2: will tell you that there is nothing the ultimate act

644
00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 2: of humiliation degradation to a Mexican man, The ultimate act

645
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 2: of losing his muchismo is to play the role of

646
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 2: the female in a sexual encounter. She will tell you

647
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 2: that these men are driven by masochistic tendencies either to

648
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 2: have pain inflicted upon them or be degraded. That underneath

649
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 2: all of this masochistic tendency is a boiling, bellowing rage,

650
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 2: and that it is not uncommon for all of the

651
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 2: pacebo homosexual to suddenly turn in a homicidal rage to

652
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 2: destroy or mutilate the man that he has just had

653
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 2: intercourse with. And then he says, in what is a

654
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 2: I'm sure to be a classic line, the same expert

655
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 2: will also tell you that one Corona is hopelessly heterosexual.

656
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 2: Now the question is, we're pretty certain that one Corona

657
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: is responsible for this. Is he setting his brother up?

658
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 2: Or is there something like what we've been talking about,

659
00:41:54,080 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 2: a very conscious or subconscious element of sexual whatever about

660
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 2: one Corona. So on which one is it?

661
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:08,240
Speaker 3: You know, first everything that this doctor Hooker, Evelyn Hooker,

662
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 3: when you take the totality of the series in what's

663
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 3: going on, that just does not line up with what

664
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:21,800
Speaker 3: we know today as the predator. There's you know, questions

665
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 3: that I would have that you know, I know we

666
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 3: don't have answers to. However, you know, when I think

667
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 3: about all the details that I can recollect that you've

668
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 3: told me, this completely falls in line with a predator

669
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:42,320
Speaker 3: that is actively seeking out victims of a certain type

670
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 3: and is sexually interacting with them at some level. That

671
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 3: we don't know what that level is because they didn't

672
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 3: collect the evidence and didn't document appropriately for what today's

673
00:42:54,080 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 3: standards would be to say that one Corona is heterosecond

674
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 3: and to make a defense, well, therefore he's not responsible

675
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 3: for this sexual humiliation of these white men victims. I mean,

676
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 3: that's from my perspective, that's ludicrous. Basically, you have a

677
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 3: predator that is seeking self gratification. That self gratification includes

678
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 3: a sexual component, includes the violence component, it includes the

679
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 3: idea of being able to get away with these crimes.

680
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 3: Committing these crimes you know, on locations that the predator

681
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 3: has familiarity with one crona has an anchor point at

682
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 3: these in these orchards. From a geographic profiling standpoint, he's

683
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 3: choosing victims that he knows he can victimize and kill,

684
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:52,280
Speaker 3: and nobody's going to basically report anybody missing. No loved

685
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 3: ones are out there because of these you know, the

686
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 3: transient nature of who these victims are. I mean, he's

687
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 3: just showing all the classic characteristics of an organized defender.

688
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 3: As I mentioned before, I think he's mixed or some

689
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 3: disorganized aspects to him. But he is out there committing

690
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,280
Speaker 3: crimes for self gratification and wants to continue to commit

691
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 3: these crimes.

692
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 2: Well, here's what's interesting to me about the defense. You know,

693
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 2: they don't go down the mental illness road because Hawk

694
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 2: believes the defense attorney believes that you know, this obviously

695
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 2: is is admitting that he did something wrong. So he

696
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 2: thought this is a more viable defense. So what he says,

697
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 2: I'm gonna try to shorthand this. So Hawk essentially says

698
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 2: that accuses Natividad Corona of just about everything under the sun.

699
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 2: And I don't know what's verified in whatsnot. I do

700
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 2: know that he was a member of the Guadalajara police

701
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 2: in the fifties, but he was dismissed for fraud and

702
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:55,280
Speaker 2: homosexuality in sixty eight. He had contracted civilists and these

703
00:44:55,480 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 2: charges followed Natividad to the cafe that he owned, because

704
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 2: there was an anonymous writer to the Alcohol Beverage Commission

705
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 2: that said that Natividad will corrupt any miner who enters

706
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 2: this restaurant. He sweet talks them and gets them drunk.

707
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 2: And in seventy one that year he was accused by

708
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 2: the Jalisco police of kidnapping and possibly murdering a young boy.

709
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 2: The defense says that Natividad is the one who killed

710
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 2: all of these people when he was in a rage

711
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 2: caused by the syphilis that he had. So this is

712
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 2: what they're trying to do. They're saying one Corona is

713
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 2: a family man. He's got a wife and four daughters.

714
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 2: He goes to church every week. He's a good boss,

715
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 2: according to everybody. Now here's one issue. Paul Jose, the

716
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:51,760
Speaker 2: man who was almost killed right by one, he changes

717
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 2: his story, I have no idea. Multiple times. He actually

718
00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 2: says that Natividad was his attacker in nineteen seventy, isn't

719
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:04,479
Speaker 2: and his brother wan And just as Natividad had tried

720
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 2: to frame you know, his brother, the defense said he

721
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 2: was happy to have him take the fall again. And

722
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 2: so this is all Natividad's doing.

723
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's interesting, you know, and this is

724
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 3: where you know, today we could answer this question. Yeah,

725
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 3: so Natividad, it's very possible that he has committed you know,

726
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 3: some violent acts against males, maybe young males. And you know,

727
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 3: his half brother, you know Wand is also committing homicidal

728
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 3: acts against men. You know, criminalities does seem to run

729
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 3: in families. We've seen this over and over and over again.

730
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 3: Any law enforcement agency, you go into them and say, okay,

731
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 3: who who's responsible for a majority or crimes in your city?

732
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 3: And you'll see they'll they'll point out select families and go,

733
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 3: this family is the biggest pain in the ass in

734
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 3: this jurisdiction. And it's it's the grandfather, it's the father,

735
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 3: it's the son, it's the grandkid. They're all committing crimes.

736
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 3: You know, in terms of Natividad having a criminal past,

737
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 3: that does not give me any pause about you know,

738
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 3: Wand's involvement in the crimes that he's been charged with.

739
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,479
Speaker 3: And now you think about, okay, let's let's take let's

740
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 3: do a little bit of a fender profiling. You know,

741
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 3: did Natividad have the same connections to the orchards that

742
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 3: Wan has? Does Natividad have the same connection to the

743
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 3: victims that Wan has? All the bloody weapons and everything else?

744
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 3: Who had possession of those? Was it in Natividad's possession?

745
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 3: Was it Wan's possession? Did Natividad have access to to

746
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 3: Wand's you know, wherever these these weapons were located at?

747
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 3: You know, so I think as we go down and

748
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 3: try to evaluate all the cases between these two relatives

749
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 3: Vividad and Wan. Things seem to stack up on Wan

750
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 3: and not on a Natividad. Now, maybe there's an argument

751
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 3: that Natividad, being maybe a very organized, intelligent offender, is

752
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 3: over time constantly trying to set up Wan, you know,

753
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 3: and is doing everything he can to have the case

754
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 3: go against Wan. It just doesn't seem like that would

755
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 3: be the situation. You know. I think the defense was

756
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,839
Speaker 3: smart to point fingers at Natividad because that is going

757
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 3: to cause the jur ready to go huh, you know,

758
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 3: and who knows about you know, the attack in Natividad's restaurant.

759
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 3: You know, maybe Natividad did that attack, but it doesn't

760
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 3: you know negate Wand's association with these other homicide cases

761
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 3: out in the orchards.

762
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 2: And think about what's actually documented, which is Wan going

763
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 2: to a mental health facility years earlier. I mean, it's

764
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 2: not like Natividad put him in in sixty nine or

765
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 2: even seventy. This was I think it was fifty three,

766
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 2: so long ago for delusional thoughts and then acting out violently,

767
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 2: and that's document he is in this facility. So there

768
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 2: are records that show that.

769
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 3: Well, it's showing you know, certainly is showing wands passed.

770
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,880
Speaker 3: But you still have to prove the case. You know,

771
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 3: these murder charges, I mean, these cases need you have

772
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 3: to have the evidence that is contemporaneous with each of

773
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 3: those cases. You can't say, well, this guy was in

774
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 3: a mental health facility fifteen years ago, so therefore he's

775
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 3: responsible for these murders. You have to have the evidence

776
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 3: for those murders in order to prove the case. Now,

777
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 3: maybe during sentencing, you know, the jury would hear about

778
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 3: wands past, both pros and cons in terms of why

779
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 3: his sentence should be longer or shorter depending on prosecution

780
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 3: versus defense. And that's just where you know right now,

781
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:07,399
Speaker 3: I'm not doubting Wan's involvement in the homicides, but if

782
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 3: there is any controversy over that, and you know, I

783
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:11,839
Speaker 3: don't know if there is or not, you know, if

784
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 3: they still have the evidence, I think it would be

785
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 3: easy to prove with modern technology.

786
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 2: Well, there didn't appear to be controversy in nineteen seventy

787
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 2: two when he went on trial because he was convicted

788
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,439
Speaker 2: on all twenty five counts. Not quite case closed because

789
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,280
Speaker 2: of something I mentioned earlier. Just so we know, hawk

790
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 2: the defense attorney was really annoying to me, and he

791
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 2: was good to know. He was sentenced to six months

792
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 2: in Jalen seventy three a year later for tax evasion.

793
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 2: So there you go.

794
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 3: You know that I know that name, Richard Hawk. And

795
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 3: I'm not sure it's because of the Corona case or

796
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 3: if there's something else that he got involved with, but

797
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 3: that one that Richard Hawk sounds familiar to me.

798
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 2: It probably does. He said later on, I only took

799
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 2: the case because I wanted to be famous. Great, it's

800
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 2: just what you want in a defense attorney. So there

801
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:04,320
Speaker 2: are appeals that happened, and in seventy eight an appeals court,

802
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 2: California Appeals Court says that Richard Hawk gave him an

803
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:13,720
Speaker 2: incompetent defense because they said, what about the insanity defense?

804
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 2: What about mental incompetency, And they said that you know,

805
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 2: Hawk made a big mistake, and of course Hawk said, well,

806
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 2: you know, you got to pick your horse and ride it.

807
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 2: So this is what the appeal court says. The trial

808
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 2: council for appellent failed to raise the obvious alternative defenses

809
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 2: of mental incompetence and diminished capacity or legal insanity. The

810
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 2: trial council failed to present any meaningful defense at all.

811
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 2: After a lengthy trial lasting several months, in which the

812
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 2: prosecutor produced more than one hundred leon expert witnesses had

813
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 2: put an immense amount of wealth of documentary evidence forward,

814
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 2: the defense council failed to call a single witness on

815
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 2: his client's behalf and submitted the case basically upon the

816
00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 2: evidence produced by the prosecution. I don't know he shot

817
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 2: a shot.

818
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 3: Well, all he did was cross examine the prosecution's witnesses. Yeah,

819
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 3: so you know, yeah, maybe there is a valid you know,

820
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 3: valid incompetence, you know, for one Corona. You know, in

821
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 3: terms of the initial trial, did he get retried? Was

822
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 3: it remanded?

823
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 2: Listen to this, so, yes, he was going to get

824
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:30,800
Speaker 2: a retrial. In the interim, he has a heart attack

825
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 2: in prison and he has stabbed thirty two times by

826
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 2: inmates at the California Medical Facility in Vacaville. He loses

827
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 2: sight in one eye, survives it, obviously. He allegedly confesses

828
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 2: to three murders, not of transient workers, and then recants,

829
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 2: and then he does go on trial in eighty two.

830
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:54,879
Speaker 2: There's a second trial in Hayward, California. The defense does

831
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 2: not argue mental incompetence. They again do the same thing,

832
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 2: and this isn't hawk. This time they say that Natividad,

833
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 2: who is dead at this point, has carried out the

834
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 2: killings in a rage related to his homosexuality. At least

835
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:12,760
Speaker 2: we're past the cypfulest part. This time one takes the stand.

836
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 2: He claims his innocence, but he's again convicted twenty five

837
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 2: concurrent life sinances and he dies in twenty nineteen. It's

838
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:22,479
Speaker 2: very not very long ago.

839
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,919
Speaker 3: No, yeah, I didn't realize that. Yeah, the CMF Vacaville

840
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:31,839
Speaker 3: was my rear neighbor for part of my life. Well

841
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 3: he was therefol well, so said Kemper. So it was

842
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 3: Charles Manson. You know, this was sort of the clearinghouse

843
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 3: for anybody that potentially had some mental issues. I mean,

844
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 3: you have many many of the serial killers initially went

845
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 3: to CMF Acaville to be evaluated before they ended up

846
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 3: being distributed into the prison system that was appropriate for

847
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,879
Speaker 3: their housing. So, you know, Juan Corona would have been

848
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 3: my rear neighbor for you know, part of my life

849
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 3: for sure. I think it would be interesting, you know,

850
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:09,319
Speaker 3: to evaluate the physical evidence today with modern technology just

851
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 3: to see, you know, what's going on. I really don't

852
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:17,399
Speaker 3: have any questions at One Corona. You know about One

853
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 3: Corona and his involvement in these twenty five cases. Natividad,

854
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 3: I think is potentially just being used as a scapegoat,

855
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,839
Speaker 3: and he may have his own criminal history that could

856
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 3: include significant violence. But you know, I just I'm not

857
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:38,760
Speaker 3: seeing how Natividad could set one up at the level

858
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 3: of you know, whether you call it circumstantial or not.

859
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a pretty significant case against One Corona,

860
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 3: and I think I'm pretty satisfied that the right guy

861
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 3: was serving time for these twenty five.

862
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:56,320
Speaker 2: Murders, so he was in for forty six years. You know,

863
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 2: sometimes I think, Okay, what do we take away from

864
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 2: this case? And I actually am not quite sure, except

865
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 2: the constant reminder to me that there are people who

866
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 2: fall through the cracks, like I didn't even tell you this.

867
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,799
Speaker 2: One of the victims, his wife was notified your ex

868
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 2: husband's dead. What do we do with the body? And

869
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 2: she said, I don't care. So I mean that I

870
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,360
Speaker 2: think was a very common theme, with the exception of

871
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 2: maybe one or two of these men, twenty five people,

872
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:23,760
Speaker 2: and then Jose, I don't know what Jose's thinking flipping.

873
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe you're right, maybe Natividad is a suspect

874
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 2: in that. I don't know.

875
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 3: Well, I think with Jose, you think about the I

876
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 3: mean traumatic brain injury TBI in terms of memory recall,

877
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 3: you know individuals that suffer that it's difficult to put

878
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,879
Speaker 3: a lot of voracity on their memory because it's been

879
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 3: shown they just either they completely have amnesia. They go

880
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 3: I last remember, let's say with with with Jose, I

881
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:57,240
Speaker 3: last remember opening the bathroom door, you know, and then

882
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:00,839
Speaker 3: he's you know, attacked, you know it later or two

883
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 3: minutes later. He has no memory because of the traumatic

884
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:07,280
Speaker 3: brain injury. So it's kind of tough to say, Okay,

885
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 3: he changed his story and now it's Natividad. That's that

886
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 3: it's his attacker. I don't think I would, you know,

887
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 3: put a lot of weight on that. I think you

888
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:21,359
Speaker 3: know my takeaway and it really I think you're right.

889
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 3: Is I mean, you think about this, you have twenty

890
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 3: five men. This is where you know most of the

891
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:32,720
Speaker 3: cases that I've dealt with involving serial predators or women

892
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 3: and children, and now yet you do see where you

893
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 3: do have a vulnerable male victim. This transient population that

894
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 3: one Corona was able to take advantage of, and he

895
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 3: was able to kill a lot of men. And I

896
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 3: don't know exactly the time span, but it's within a

897
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 3: year or two years, you know, in terms of those

898
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 3: cases that are ending up in the orchard knows what,

899
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 3: you know, what other cases he was involved with, you know,

900
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 3: So it doesn't matter who you are in terms of

901
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 3: your own characteristics. You know, you can become a victim

902
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 3: if a predator targets you, and you just have to

903
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 3: be aware of that and take steps to try to avoid,

904
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 3: you know, making yourself vulnerable.

905
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 2: And as a subset of that, I would say I'm

906
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 2: thrilled that the alternate suspect Natividad and his homosexuality seem

907
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 2: to play no part in two different trials where it

908
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,919
Speaker 2: absolutely could have in the seventies and nineteen eighty two.

909
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 2: So at least that didn't work. But yeah, I mean

910
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 2: this case. I know you like serial killer cases, but

911
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 2: in they're not for entertainment for me. It is for

912
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 2: figuring these kinds of things out. You know, how do

913
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 2: you get away with something? What is what are we

914
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 2: doing as a society to fail people? So that there

915
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 2: is somebody who can come as a predator and take

916
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 2: advantage of these people. And we find out every week.

917
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, no, and that's just that there is

918
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 3: a what's that term, white soft underbelly, if you will,

919
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 3: that predators can focus in on, you know, and nobody

920
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 3: pays attention. And the reality is is since the nineteen seventies,

921
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:25,920
Speaker 3: with all the security changes and technology advancements, you know,

922
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 3: it's a lot harder for offenders to go after victims

923
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 3: that have strong associations within society, whether it be with family,

924
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 3: or or they work or whatever else. And I always

925
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 3: say predators go to where the prey is at and

926
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:47,280
Speaker 3: where where's the prey? It's the prey. The prey is

927
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 3: those people that if something happens to them, nobody notices.

928
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 2: Well, next week, let's see what ends up happening. It'll

929
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 2: be I'm sure a very different case, but you know,

930
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 2: and hopefully we'll be going back. I need to go

931
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 2: backwards a little bit. I think, take a break from

932
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:06,920
Speaker 2: the seventies. This is a lot of seventies for me.

933
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 2: But next week we'll have something totally new, so I'm

934
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 2: looking forward to it. Pulholes.

935
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 3: As always, Kate, thank you very much for this.

936
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

937
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 3: Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightemedia dot com

938
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 3: slash Buried Bones sources.

939
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

940
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 3: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

941
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

942
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

943
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

944
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

945
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

946
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:49,520
Speaker 2: Buried Bones pod.

947
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:52,560
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

948
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

949
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now.

950
00:59:56,720 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 2: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

951
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 2: Cold Cases is also available now.

952
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 3: Listen to Barry Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

953
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts.