1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Pop next The Truth with Lisa bof A The So, 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: the omicron variant is sweeping the nation, and with it 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:13,159 Speaker 1: has come fear and new draconian government measures. Cities like 4 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: Boston and Chicago are now implementing vaccine mandates. You've got 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: to be vaccinated to go out to dinner, to go 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: to museums, basically just to live your life. But what's 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: the point of it when the vaccines don't stop transmission? 8 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: When vaccinated people like Senators Elizabeth Warren and Corey Booker, 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: who both said they've recently got the boosted, well they 10 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: both just got COVID. So what do you need to 11 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: know about all this? What do you need to know 12 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: about a macron? What do you need to know about 13 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: this incredibly transmissible variant? Is it going to get us 14 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: closer to her immunity? Does the vaccine provide any protection 15 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: at all? This week, I turned to Dr j Baticharia 16 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: for The Truth. He's a professor of medicine at Stanford University. 17 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: He's also one of the co authors of the Great 18 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: Barrington Declaration. He is also recently opened the Academy for 19 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: Science and Freedom with Hillsdale College along with Dr Scott 20 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: Atlas and Martin Colder. You guys are familiar with them. 21 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,639 Speaker 1: They both have been on this show. All of these people, 22 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,119 Speaker 1: including j. Batcharia, They've come, They've given you the truth. 23 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: They're honest people. There are people we should be turning 24 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: to for the truth and all of this. Also want 25 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 1: to talk with Dr about a Charia about how Fauci 26 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: and the ni H have intentionally shut down dissenting voices 27 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: and the truth and all of this. We're gonna get 28 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: into how exactly they have done that, how the ni 29 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: H has done that, and how they control so many 30 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: of the scientists in the country through grant money and funding. 31 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: So a lot to get into. It's going to be 32 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: super interesting. We'll get you the truth on all of 33 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: this with Dr J. Baticharia. Stay tuned. I'm so excited 34 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: for this next episode. As we're saying this, this new 35 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: variant in the country, the panic, the draconian measures, rinse 36 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: and repeat, which is something we're all familiar with. So 37 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: I'm so happy to have Dr J. Batachara on the show, 38 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: someone who has been a voice of reason throughout all 39 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: this chaos. Doctor, thanks so much for joining the show. 40 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: Oh thank you for having me so I'm actually one 41 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 1: of the unlucky recipients of this new variant. I have 42 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: spent the past week now just getting over COVID, So 43 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: fortunately I'm on the other side of it almost, but 44 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: it definitely kicked my butt. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, 45 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: I mean I think it could. You know, there's there's 46 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: delta still floating around. So I think the evidence on 47 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: amicron by itself is that it's it's milder. But COVID 48 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: isn't a joke. I mean, obviously, so many people have 49 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: died from it, so it's something we should take seriously, 50 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: but it's not something we should destroy our society around, 51 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: which is unfortunately, I think we've done large in many 52 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: ways over the last two years. Well, it definitely has. 53 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: And you know, you're one of the few people out 54 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,079 Speaker 1: there really arguing again some of those draconian lockdown. You 55 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: know what's so interesting is there's recently a Foyer request 56 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: from the American Institute for Economic Research that undercovered emails 57 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: were Dr Fauci and Dr Francis Collins were scheming against 58 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,239 Speaker 1: you and the other individuals who signed the Great Barrington Declaration. 59 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: What did that feel like to sort of be on 60 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: the receiving end of you know, the government's propaganda and attacks. Really, 61 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: I mean it was really surprised. I mean, I guess 62 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: and since I'm not surprised that it happened, surprising to 63 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: see it in black and white. The last year and 64 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: some have been quite difficult because what's happened over the 65 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: last year and a half and so is that after 66 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: we wrote the Great Banking Nequation, which which we was 67 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: with me Sinetra Gupta from professor at Oxford University, she's 68 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: fantastic theoretical epidomologists, uh and and actually practical epidomologists, and 69 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: then Martin Cooldorf at Harvard University, amazing biostatistician. We wrote 70 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: this in Octo and the idea was very simple that 71 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: COVID has an enormously bad effect on people who were 72 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: older as also thousandfold increase in the risk of death, 73 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: sense of your disease if you are older versus if 74 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: you're young. At the same time, the lockdowns are been devastating, 75 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: just devastatingly harmful. Tens of millions of people thrown into 76 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: starvation worldwide, missed cancer screenings resulting in breast cancers that 77 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: are that should have been cut earlier tolling cancers. Psychological 78 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: effects on especially on kids, has been enormous. So we 79 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: called for an end of the lockdowns and focus protection 80 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 1: for the elderly, especially for the older and other other vulnerable. 81 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: What we hope for was an open conversation with the 82 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: public comp community about how best to protect the old 83 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 1: older population without a lockdown. Because the idea, but up 84 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: until this one was the only way to protect anybody 85 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: was was a lockdown to stop this use and spreading 86 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: that we knew that was not possible because what the 87 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: lockdowns this does is protects a certain class of rich 88 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: people who can who can stay from home at work 89 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: and not lose their jobs, and not not anyone else. 90 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: So we we put this out hoping that were to 91 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: open a conversation. Instead what was we were met with 92 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: It was just this like vilification campaign is campaign to 93 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: say that we wanted the virus to rip society, to 94 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,119 Speaker 1: kill people, as if we were somehow Google that wanted 95 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: to destroy destroy the lives of people. And I was 96 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: I wondered what was the source of that? And the 97 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: Francis Collins emails that were released through a FOIA reveals 98 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: that the NI h with including the head of the 99 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 1: NIH and Tony Faucci, the head of the n A. 100 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: I d uh. They spread those lies, they worked to 101 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: try to get the media to amplify them, and it 102 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: led to so many interviews with reporters where they're asking 103 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: me why I wanted to let it rip, why I 104 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: wanted to hurt immunity strategy, which is which is nonsense? Um. 105 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: And it made my life much more difficult with me, 106 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: even with my colleagues who sort of fell for the propaganda. Well, 107 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: and what's so odd is I mean, science is not 108 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 1: supposed to be this consensus, this group think. I mean, 109 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 1: you're supposed to have diverging opinions. And so when did 110 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: this change? And why do you think it changed? Because 111 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: we we've really seen this take fold in a way 112 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: that is so different you know, times of the past. 113 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: So we're a science today, and how do you think 114 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: that happened? I mean, I think that it's always been 115 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: true for science. Science is such a powerful, beautiful thing. 116 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: It's it's like an engine for producing things that tend 117 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,799 Speaker 1: to be true. Right, So learning learning how the material 118 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,119 Speaker 1: world functions, science is so powerful and so chief, so much, 119 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: But I think what's what's happened over I don't know 120 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 1: exactly the time frame, but certainly, uh, we've seen this 121 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: in during the pandemic. Science has become a thing where 122 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: essentially you believe in it just because it's science, rather 123 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 1: than understanding the mechanisms by which science tends to produce 124 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: truth and so like. You can see this with the 125 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: almost crazy worship of Tony Faucci, or even the way 126 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: he talks about science. He says things like, if you 127 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: disagree with me, you're not simply just disagree with a man, 128 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: You're just doing with science itself. He's turned science into 129 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: a god. He's a high priest of science. When he 130 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: says things like that, that's not the right way to 131 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: think about science. At least, it's exactly what you said. 132 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: Science is a process by which truth reveals itself with 133 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: open mindedness, tolerance, uh and and openness. The discussion also 134 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: correction by data. Right, So if you believe A and 135 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: I believe B, we disagree, Well, we agree on an 136 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: experiment and it resolves in your it turns out your right, 137 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh donn, I'm you're right. And then 138 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: I say, well then you know, buy you dinner or something, 139 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: and then I say see, and we do the next 140 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: thing right. Then slowly over time, by that just open discussion, 141 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: we learn things about the real world. Instead, during the pandemic, 142 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: what's happened, it's essentially replaced with this attitude you see 143 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: in this letter and also the Trances columns head of 144 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: an NH wrote, and also what Tony Fauci has said 145 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: of science as a dictum as given from on him. 146 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: The science has said X, Y or z. There is 147 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: no fighting over it. There's there's no there's no disagreeing 148 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: over it. There's no recourse to any data that would 149 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: would solve it. Instead, you just propagandize, you demonize people 150 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: to disagree with you, and you push them the outside 151 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: so that that scientific opinion is outside the bounds of 152 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: the polite discussion. I mean, that's essentially exactly what Francis 153 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: Collins and the United did to the Great Parenting Declaration. Well, 154 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: and they did this at the beginning of COVID as well, 155 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the pandemic, of trying to shut 156 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: down any talk about the virus having escaped from the 157 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: Wuhan lab. There. They did it in the lance that 158 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,119 Speaker 1: you had Peter Dazac and a bunch of scientists wrote 159 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: that letter basically trying to shut down any alternative thought 160 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 1: process of oh no, it had to have come from 161 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: the wet market, which even China is saying that didn't 162 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: happen now, you know, so they try to shut down 163 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: so they're just seems to be this really odd desire 164 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: by the people in charge, people like Dr Fauci, of 165 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: just shutting down any alternative viewpoint in a way that 166 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: is really dangerous, and to me, I think the reason 167 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: why everyone should be concerned about this is what information 168 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: are we not getting? What critical information do we not 169 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: know that is not being share, that is not being 170 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: brought to light that could potentially save lives because of 171 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: this group think, because of the shutting down, because of 172 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: the labeling anything that is outside of what Dr Fauci 173 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: deems acceptable as conspiracy. You know, what information are we 174 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,079 Speaker 1: not learning right now that we need to know? I mean, 175 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 1: that's that's always the problem when you treat science as 176 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: if it were established out of facts with a high priesthood, right, 177 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: but what if the high priesthood is wrong? How would 178 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: you know? There's no there's no fighting with them reasonably 179 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: with with data and with with reason. Instead, what you 180 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: have is dictims, some of which may be right, someone 181 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: which are may be wrong. It's impossible to tell because 182 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: it hasn't been subjected to the test that you normally 183 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: would subject to scientific ideas to Every scientific idea is 184 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: subject to challenge in that same same exact way. It 185 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: has to be what do we not know? I and 186 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: I agree with you? Like a great example is this 187 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: this idea that he couldn't have possibly been a lab leak? Right? Well, 188 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: I mean, in fact it was conspiracy here to even 189 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: suggested for a long time. Uh. The revision on this 190 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: is I think going to be healthy, but a lot 191 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: of the sort of circling of wagons on the lablacate. Frankly, 192 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:09,719 Speaker 1: it smacks of like a cover up to me. Um, 193 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: whether there wasn't lablique or not, I don't. I don't 194 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: know for certain. It's hard, it's going to be challenging 195 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,079 Speaker 1: to find out, but certainly we should be allowed to 196 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: ask questions around along those lines. The same thing was like, 197 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: actually I worked on a study in the early days 198 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: the epidemic called the Santa Clara Seria Prevalence Study and 199 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: the l A county, Seria prevalence say where What we 200 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: tried to do is figure out how widespread the disease 201 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: was in the in the population um. What we found 202 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,599 Speaker 1: was that in April twenty in Santa Clara and l 203 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: A County there were forty or fifty times more infections 204 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: than cases, which meant a few things. One, the mortality 205 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: Riffin disease was much lower than people have been saying 206 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: because the denominator the number of people infect it was 207 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: much higher, but the deaths were the same, So you 208 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: just didn't it didn't. But the second, and equally certain 209 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: probably more important, is that by that meant that it 210 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: was so widespread by April there was already too late 211 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: to have a zero COVID kind of policy. We've been following. 212 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 1: The idea for the policy all along has been a, well, 213 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: we just need to suppress the spread of the virus 214 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: down to low enough levels so we can open society again. Well, 215 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at the data from April, 216 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 1: there was no chance that was going to be true. 217 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: That successful in most in most places in the world. 218 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: In fact, that's exactly what's happened. Like we've done so 219 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: much to try to lock down and get this virus 220 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: down to zero. That we've been unable to stop the 221 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: spread of the disease. We don't have a technology to 222 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: do that. Tony fact, you wrote a letter an email 223 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: about that Santa Clara study that was in an earlier 224 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: email dump from through pain through Foia where he had 225 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: a five pages of redacted the text that was redacted 226 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: about the study. Uh. And he at the end of 227 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: the five pages he said he had a line saying, well, 228 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: we should contact one of the authors of the study, 229 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 1: and it was one of my colleagues who was the 230 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: senior author on the study. He never was contacted. I 231 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 1: would dearly love to know with those five pages of 232 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: redacted text said, because what should have happened in response 233 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: to that study and and a whole bunch of other 234 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: share problem studies, is a revision of thinking about what 235 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: the right policy should be. And yet, just like with 236 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: the lab leak, just like with the Great Parents and declaration, 237 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: the NIH closed ranks of CDC closed ranks and decided 238 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: to go full on down the lockdown strategy that's led 239 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: to such a disaster the last two years. Well, and 240 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 1: so I remember, you know, I was one of the 241 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: people screaming from the rooftops because I was reading stuff 242 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: that Dr e and Edys was writing. I was saying 243 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: the study that you just talked about that you worked 244 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:30,839 Speaker 1: out at a Santa Clara, And then we had also, 245 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: I think closely after that, there was this study at 246 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: in New York. There was also Miami Dade County, and 247 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: all of it was sort of saying the same thing 248 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 1: that we were missing cases by, like you know, I 249 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: think it was something like ten to sixty five fold 250 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: or something, which means that it's a lot less deadly 251 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: than we originally thought. And then you had also I 252 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: think it was New York's own data was saying that 253 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: the majority of the new hospitalizations were people who are 254 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: staying at home. So to your point, we had all 255 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: this information in front of us that the decisions we 256 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: were making were the wrong ones. Yet will uh, you know, 257 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: continue down that road. But you know, here we are 258 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: again sort of in the same position where we have 259 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: this new variant out that is seemingly as contagious as 260 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: the measles. Yet they're still trying to revise the old 261 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: bag of tricks to stop something that we can't stop. Yeah, 262 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I think I mean, the problem is that 263 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: it's exposed to actual discussion and data. The people who 264 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: have supported the lockdowns really have no argument, right. They'll 265 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: point to places like Australian New Zealand say well, look 266 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: they got to zero, but in fact they didn't get 267 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: to zero. You can see the cases exploding Australia now, 268 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: um that the the you can see the cases coming back. 269 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: They've had more lockdown days than any place on Earth. Um. 270 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: And yet the disease is still floating around the way 271 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: that that that the lockdowners have behaved, It's as if 272 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: they said, well, there was no other possible alternative response 273 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: to this this virus other than to to do the 274 00:13:55,160 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: kind of school closures and church closures and and closing 275 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: businesses and uh and and sort of ending normal civic life. Well, 276 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: that didn't work. Was a complete disaster for the poor 277 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: the vulnerable, both in the both in devest in the 278 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: developed world and the developing world. To pretend as if 279 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: we had no choice, that that that wasn't actually policy 280 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: choice is completely disingenuous. And in order to maintain the 281 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: illusion that we had no choice, they had to shut 282 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: down the scientific debate about it, and so that the campaign, 283 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: the propaganda campaign about the Great brand and Declaration, essentially 284 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: the similar kind of uh shutting down a debate around 285 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: how widespread the virus actually was with the serial prevalence. 286 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: By the way, there's now a hundreds of more of 287 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: these studies that found basically the same thing, like a 288 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: huge of a very large fraction of of cases that 289 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: affection is not identified and disease more widespread than realized. 290 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: UM and that's been tree is said from the beginning 291 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: of the epidemic. UH so that they had to shut 292 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: that debate down in order to get the policy through 293 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: because if that policy was subject to old reason, no 294 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: one would have gone for it. Instead, they relied on 295 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: panicking the population to generate support for a policy that 296 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: is utterly destructed. Quit commercial break more with Dr J 297 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: Baicharia on the other side, where do you think we 298 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: would be today if we had followed the Great Barrington 299 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: Declaration and protected the elderly and essentially allowed you know, 300 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: the rest of society to go back to life. I 301 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: think we've had many, many, many fewer deaths from the 302 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: virus itself because we would have we would have protected 303 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: better protected the elderly. It's not I don't think there 304 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: would have been zero desk because this is a terrible 305 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: virus and it's really hard to stop. But we managed 306 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: to protect the laptop class. That was the policy we followed. 307 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: We shielded the laptop class. We could instead have thought 308 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: to ours I've thought about how best to protect the 309 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: actually vulnerable, so we would have many fewer deaths from 310 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: the virus. We actually might even had less of this 311 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: viral evolution. And then the other thing that we would 312 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: have had is we would have had an enormously uh 313 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: less damage from the lockdown arms. Right, kids would have 314 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: spent the last year and a half year year and 315 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: some in school rather than uh quote learning from home, 316 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: as if it's really possible to do that. So kids 317 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: would be leading better lives as a result of it. 318 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: And by the way, that will have long term impacts 319 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: that we have. We have kids that can't read, we 320 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: have kids is going to collapse in in learning. UM 321 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: that has long term impacts on the lives. Just tragic 322 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: increase in depression and anxiety and kids and young adults. UM, 323 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: we would have avoided all of that. We would have 324 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: avoided the there's now I mean, there's data that show 325 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: that tens of millions of people around the world are 326 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: starving as a consequence of these lockdowns, tens of millions. Um, 327 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: you know, because you do. You have a country, a 328 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: poor country, many people on the verge of poverty. They 329 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: restructure their economies to fit into the global economy over 330 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: the last twenty years, lifting a billion people out of 331 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: poverty over twenty years. Overnight, we we reneged on those 332 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: promises and as it result, tens of millions of people, 333 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: their income drops below one to two dollars a day 334 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: and they start and that's exactly what's happened. Um, those 335 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 1: those lives would have been saved. Hundreds of thousands of 336 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 1: children in South Asia, corning to report in the by 337 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: the u N and March this year, have already starved 338 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: to death. Right, So you have like all that collateral 339 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: harm that's going to have consequences for decades avoided if 340 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: we follow the Great branch and Declaration. You talked about 341 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: the evolution of the virus or the vaccines to blame 342 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: for that. I've seen the argument made that we have 343 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 1: leaky vaccines that don't provide immunity, don't stop transmission, and 344 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 1: therefore or you know, have led to this new variant 345 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 1: of macron. What are your thoughts on that. I mean, 346 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: the evolution of the virus is hard to predict, but 347 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 1: it responds to the environment that it sees, right, So 348 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: the virus UM when you have a vaccinated population UM, 349 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: there it creates an ecological niche where a variant to 350 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: the virus that can infect the vaccinated UH is more 351 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: likely to succeed in stead of replicating itself. UM. So 352 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: it wouldn't be surprising that to me to find a 353 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: widespread vaccination with a vaccine that doesn't stop dis ease 354 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: spread could have contributed to this evolutionary process and and 355 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: moved the viral evolution along a certain line. If we 356 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: followed the Great par interacoration, the pandemic wad it over 357 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: earlier because what would have happened is is that through 358 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: normal activity, younger populations would have had more exposure to 359 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: the virus. Is just I mean, that's just a normal way. 360 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: But because the harm to younger people from being exposed 361 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: to virus is so much lower than the old they 362 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: would have died at much lower rates and they wouldn't 363 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: have been exposed to the lockdown harms, and so thus 364 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: would have been benefited from from the policy. It's hard 365 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: to say exactly with any kind of precision, because you 366 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: have to play this game of like what if, and 367 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: play the game of what evolution would have looked like 368 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 1: had we gone down a different path. But it is 369 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 1: clear that the policy itself, both of the vaccination and 370 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: also the lockdowns, changed the path of our evolution. Well, 371 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: and what's interesting is there used to be this game 372 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 1: of oh, it's the unvaccinated's fault, you know, these dirty 373 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: unvaccinated people. And now that you have vaccinated and even 374 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: people who are just recently boosted to get it, you know, 375 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: now it's, oh, it's no one's fault, it's you know, 376 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: the dynamics and the conversation have completely changed surrounding COVID 377 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: now that we're saying that the vaccines aren't protecting people 378 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 1: from getting COVID at this current moment. Yeah, I mean, 379 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 1: it's it's unfortunate. We should never have come to a 380 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: point where public counsel was promoting the idea that it's 381 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: somebody's fault to get sick. We don't make you feel 382 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: guilty for being sick. That is that is bad medicine, 383 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: and that's about bad public heuple we do is we 384 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: treat people who get sick with compassion. That's the right 385 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: way to message around it. And if we have a 386 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: messaging strategy, it leads people to believe that anyone who 387 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: gets sick is somehow lesser or somehow it hasn't been 388 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: careful or is I mean essentially other. That is bad 389 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: public health and that's clearly what's happened in the last 390 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 1: two years. And so now to see a reversion to 391 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: that and say, well, it's not your faults, you've got 392 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: sick as soon as the laptop class starts getting sick, um, 393 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: I just it's frustrating. I mean, of course it is true. 394 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: That is the laptop class is not stop the fault 395 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 1: for getting sick. This is a this is a vexious 396 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: virus that spreads very easily and so it's very hard 397 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: to hard to protect yourself from it. So it's not 398 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: their fault. But it does strike me as as curious 399 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: that now we're finally getting that message from public health, 400 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: and we should have been getting that message all along. Really, 401 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 1: there's been this illusion of control over the spread of 402 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: the virus that's said this, we somehow spread the idea 403 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: around it if we were just we were just good enough, 404 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: obeyed the rules hard enough, we can protect ourselves and 405 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: others from the virus. But that that was a lie. 406 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: There was no technology we possessed or possessed currently to 407 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: stop the spread of this virus, and it's not anybody's 408 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: fault for getting it. I guess what I'm trying to 409 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: figure out is we we keep hearing this argument of Okay, 410 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: so we know that the vaccines aren't stopping transmission. That's 411 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 1: evident when you have people like Elizabeth Warren Corey Booker 412 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: who said they were just recently boosted, you know, having 413 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: recently gotten COVID. But so we keep hearing this argument 414 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 1: that it's still you still need to get it because 415 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: it's still protecting people, it's keeping people out of hospitals. 416 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: But what evidence do we have that it's doing that 417 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: when we're also just seeing the natural evolution of a virus, 418 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: which my understanding is it tends to lead to where 419 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: it becomes more transmissible but less lethal as it continues 420 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: to evolve. So how do we know it's the vaccines 421 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: keeping people out of the hospital versus just the virus 422 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 1: inevitably taking the course of being more transmissible and less lethal, 423 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: so it could be both, right, So I think I think, 424 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: for instance, at least with the delta version of the virus, 425 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: there were some very good studies out of places like Qatar, 426 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: out of Sweden, out of out of the UK, even 427 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: Kaiser in northern California that showed based on matched cohorts 428 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: of vaccinated and unvaccinated people where where they carefully followed 429 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: them over time UM that showed that vaccine efficacy against 430 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: severe disease actually stayed quite high up to six seven 431 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: eight months after vaccination. UM. There was a Swedish studies 432 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: suggested that that at the end of eight months it 433 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 1: starts to decline for pretty sharply, but for quite a 434 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: long time it protects against severe disease, even as the 435 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: protection against against being infected declines pretty sharply after two 436 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: or three months. UM. So I think really on the 437 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: basis of those studies that the people believe, at least 438 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: I believe that there's it protects against severe disease, at 439 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: least against delta. UH. The evidence about a macron, this 440 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: new variant seems to suggest that it is much milder. 441 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: The disease itself is much milder and both vaccinated and unvaccinated, 442 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: that is much less likely to produce hospitalizations, much less 443 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: likely to kill you. I mean, I know, I've heard 444 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: this general dictum that viruses tend to evolve toward milder. 445 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 1: That's I don't know that it's always true, but with 446 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 1: the case of Aramicron it it certainly has turned out 447 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,719 Speaker 1: to be true, which is I mean, a great blessing. Well, 448 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: because I guess I'm just observing in a you know, 449 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: more immediate circle. But I know a lot of people 450 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: who have recently gotten COVID, you know, many vaccinated, small 451 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 1: handful not, and it seems like everyone's symptoms have ultimately 452 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: been the same, regardless of having been vaccinated or not. 453 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: So I just I don't know, I just wonder it's, 454 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: you know, again back to our original conversation of when 455 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 1: it's sort of this group think narrative being told, it's 456 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: really hard to know what is true and what is not, 457 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 1: which is why I've been bringing people like you, or 458 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: doctor Atlas or Dr Martin colder If on the show 459 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: who have been honest and have been unbiased in your 460 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: explanation of all this stuff, because it we're really living 461 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: at this time where it's it's very difficult to discern 462 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 1: between truth and lies. Yeah, I mean, I think the 463 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: problem is uh actually comes back to this propaganda campaign 464 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: where we're talking about earlier. If you have at the 465 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: sort of commanding heights of science, people who do not 466 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: respect open scientific discussion, the first instinct when they're challenge 467 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: is to shut that down. You're gonna create this distrust 468 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: and that is something that we absolutely have to work 469 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 1: to to to address. As as I said, I think 470 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: science is a beautiful thing. It's wonderful, it's wonderful, has 471 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: produced so much knowledge, has been useful for humans, for people, 472 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: But that can only work when you have the scientific 473 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 1: process the working way it should. It's not a high priesthood, 474 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a discussion and open structured discussion. 475 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: The lack of trust that that many, many, many people 476 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: have in public health and in science is fully earned 477 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: by the public health establishment, by the scientific establishment. It's 478 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 1: brought brought that distrust on itself by not actually following 479 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: the principles of public health and in in in lockdowns, 480 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: by not following the principles of what, how how science 481 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 1: actually should operate in in terms of how the ni 482 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,199 Speaker 1: H and and other other entities that have been funding 483 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: sciences operated. It's it's led to this sort of, uh, 484 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 1: the situation where um, we see that science can produced 485 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 1: so many wonderful things and certainly improve our knowledge about 486 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: how the way the world works, but at the same 487 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 1: time it's created a class of class of people that 488 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 1: just there's no reason to trust them, but based on 489 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 1: the way they behaved. I sympathize with a lot of 490 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: folks about the inability to how what's what's true and 491 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 1: false because you know, in the middle of a propaganda war, 492 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,199 Speaker 1: that's exactly what happends up happening. Uh, we shouldn't have 493 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: a propaganda war here, we should have as an open 494 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 1: scientific discussion. So when and how did this claim that 495 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 1: the vaccines would stop transmission begin? Because you can go 496 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: back to the visor's chairman's comments last December on Dateline 497 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: he said he wasn't sure the vaccine would stop transmission. 498 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: You can also look at maderna chief medical officer told 499 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: Axios last November that we need to be careful to 500 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: not over interpret the vaccines because we didn't have sufficient 501 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: concrete data showing that the vaccines would reduce transmission. But 502 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: then lo and behold, we had people like Dr Fauci, 503 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: We had the CDC director, you had Joe Biden saying, hey, look, 504 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: if you go out, you get vaccinated, you're not going 505 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: to get COVID. How did that narrative take fold when 506 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: you even have the heads of these companies a year 507 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: ago warning for that to not happen, I mean, I 508 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: just was like a matter of full confession, I should say, 509 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: I thought in January this year that the that the 510 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 1: vaccines would greatly reduce transmission. UM. On the basis of 511 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: that was the trials, the randomized trials of the vaccines UM. 512 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: The endpoints of those trials were actually symptomatic COVID. And 513 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,239 Speaker 1: my reasoning was that if in fact the vaccines do 514 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: reduce the risk of symptomatic COVID, which is the trials 515 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: did show at least for a few months after the vaccine, well, 516 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: then symptomatic people are much more likely to pass the 517 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: disease on than someone who's not as asymptomatic disease. So 518 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: if you prevent symptomatic disease, it's a factor you're going 519 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: to prevent trans or reduce transmission. That's what I thought 520 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: in January this year, and the data started coming out 521 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: that that protection against symptomatic disease didn't last very long, 522 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: maybe two or three months. You know. I started to 523 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: see like there were countries that were had big outbreaks 524 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: despite having very highly vaccinated populations, you know, and let's 525 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: say like March, April, May, um, and it became clear 526 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: that the protection against infection was short lived. And I 527 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: changed my opinion on this based on those data that 528 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,439 Speaker 1: came out. Um. I don't know why Joe Biden or 529 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: Dauchi and and and others didn't change their opinion also 530 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,400 Speaker 1: based on those data. They started that. I think partly 531 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: they were thinking that in order to induce people to 532 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 1: get vaccinated, you can't tell them that you could get 533 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: the disease anyways, because that would decrease the demand for 534 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: the vaccine. But I think I have the opposite idea 535 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: to tell people the truth based on what the data 536 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: is showing you. It's if you tell people. Look, I 537 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: changed my mind when the day appears the data on 538 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: which I changed my mind. And here's why I thought 539 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: what I did before, and here was I think. But 540 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,479 Speaker 1: now I think people are gonna trust you more. And 541 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: what actually increased demand for the vaccines, because what it 542 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: would happen is people say, well, yeah, okay, this person, 543 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: this person is telling me what the data show that 544 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 1: changed their minds based on the data, and that they're 545 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: also telling me that protects against severe disease, which I 546 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: still think it does for at least eight months. Like 547 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: I think that's how you build trust is by being 548 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 1: honest when you get something wrong, uh, follow the data 549 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 1: and then tell and then reason with the public like 550 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 1: their adults, rather than trying to manipulate the public, which 551 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: is essentially how I think Joe Biden and advised mainly 552 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,199 Speaker 1: I think by Tony Facci has done. They like the 553 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: vaccine passports and vaccine mandates are are are fruit of that, right. 554 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: They they want these policies in order to cource people 555 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: to get the vaccine at risk of losing your job, 556 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: at risk of being able to go to restaurants, to 557 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: uh to public libraries, uh, you know too, museums, you 558 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: name it. You you can't have, you can't participate in 559 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: civic life. Only you get the vaccine in order to 560 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: course people to get it. Rather than reasoning with people 561 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: about the vaccines, say well, here's here's here's who especially 562 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: important for Here's what the side effects are for this group, 563 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: and it's much less for that group, and just and 564 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: just showing on openly and honestly what the data are. 565 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: I think that reeds trust and that trust helps people 566 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: feel more comfortable doing the right thing for them. Well, 567 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: and I think you're right in the sense of, like, 568 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: you know, you just earned my trust more by saying, hey, 569 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: you know, back in January, this is what I thought, 570 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: here's why. And I think if they were just honest 571 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: with people and saying, hey, look that's what we thought 572 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: at the time, and then Delta came along, and then 573 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, we're looking at us studies out 574 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: of you know, Provincetown, Massachusetts, where you know, an outbreak 575 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: took place in the cases were fully vaccinated. Now those 576 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: dynamics of you know, if if they were just honest. 577 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: But the problem is and then they just keep pushing 578 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: forward with these failed strategies. I mean, like, so, for instance, 579 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: we're we're all saying with their own eyes that the 580 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: vaccine is not stopping transmission. Right, We're seeing people left 581 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: and right get O Macron vaccinated. Not it doesn't seem 582 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: to matter at all. But yet then you've got new 583 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: cities like Boston saying you have to be vaccinated to 584 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: live among society here or Chicago, and it's like why, 585 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: like what what is it actually doing to protect society 586 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: when it's not stopping transmission whatsoever? Like what's the point 587 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: of vaccine mandates right now when it doesn't stop transmission? 588 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: I just I don't understand it. It makes no sense 589 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: to me. You're right to know, I don't understand it. 590 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: There is no point to it other than to create 591 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: social division and ostracism. Um. I mean I think I 592 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: think if you'd ask some a proponent, they probably say, well, 593 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: we want to coerce people into getting the vaccine, like 594 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: they're being honest when that policy induces such enormous social division, 595 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: like people have lost their jobs because they don't want 596 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: to get vaccinated for whatever reason. Um. You know, it's 597 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: at this point the vaccine is very clear is a 598 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: private decision, like it has private consequence of that person 599 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: has vaccinated in the sense of protecting against severe disease. 600 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: That's according to mind you of the data, um, but 601 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: very little in the way of public public Like, so 602 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: my vaccine actually doesn't protect you very much. If I don't, 603 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: if it doesn't stop me from getting affected, Vaccinated people 604 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: can and do spread the disease. And in fact, if 605 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: you're in a group of unvaccinated people and all of 606 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: them are COVID recovered, well that natural immunity is quite 607 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: good against reinfection. They're great data from places again like 608 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: Israel and Qatar, Sweden, Denmark that at one year there's 609 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: only a point three percent reinfection rate, or as a 610 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: sub reation, point three and one percent, a very very 611 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: low rate of reinfection one year. If you're naturally means 612 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: it might actually be the case if you're among a 613 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: group of unvaccinated COVID recovered people, that you have less 614 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: risk of getting disease if you're in a group of 615 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: vaccinated people who have the vaccine. You know, several months ago, 616 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 1: quick commercial break more Dr j Badtaria. On the other side, 617 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: so South Africa just recently, you know, they all this 618 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: macron wave hit first. Now it's subsiding. They've actually stopped 619 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: contact tracing, quarantining. They've sort of changed their policy now 620 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: that of the country has some level of immunity from 621 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: either prior illness or vaccines. What do you think a 622 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: macron will do to the United States in terms of 623 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: reaching endemic status herd immunity in the sense of, you know, 624 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: it seems like this thing is just so contagious, the 625 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: incubation period is so short that so many people in 626 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: the country are ultimately going to get this thing. Yeah, 627 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: I think. I think, um, the illusion that you can 628 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: protect yourself from getting the virus if you just are 629 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,479 Speaker 1: careful enough, is authority on its way of being shattered. Right, 630 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: We've seen this enormous seasonal wave and almocron I think 631 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: is just fueled that throughout the Northeast and through much 632 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: of the United States. Actually, that is I think inevitable 633 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: because again we don't have a technology from stopping it. 634 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: In South Africa, what it's done is it's actually, I 635 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: mean interestingly, uh reduced the fear about the virus because 636 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 1: the consequences of getting an omicrons all seems to be 637 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: much lower. Right, There's much lower risk of death, much 638 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: lower risk of hospitalization, and the end point than is 639 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: of h I say, decoupling of cases from hospitalizations and 640 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: death like in the in many previous way, especially whenever 641 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: cases when possibilizations and death follows, sort of like night 642 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: follows day in the vaccine era in mid um. Actually, 643 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: in many countries there was already this decoupling, like when 644 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 1: when the vaccine was used to protect the old, so 645 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: that even if the old got it, they would they 646 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: would not go be hospitalized or die. That you'd see 647 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: a very increase, sharp increase in cases with no con commitment, 648 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: increase in death or hospitalizations. You saw that in the UK, 649 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: for instance, You saw that in Sweden for instance, saw 650 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: that in Iceland. Actually, uh, in the in the now 651 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: with a Macron, you're seeing that basically South Africa a 652 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 1: huge increase in cases with no no really increase in death, 653 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: and that's in a population that's not particularly particularly well vaccinated. UM. 654 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 1: I think the same is likely to be true. As 655 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,800 Speaker 1: Omicron's president us, there will be the decoupling of cases 656 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,760 Speaker 1: and death, and that decoupling really is the end state. 657 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: The cases. We can't stop. The cases will continue forever 658 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 1: in waves, seasonal or regional waves, but it will no 659 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,359 Speaker 1: longer produce the death that it once did. Are we 660 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: in endemic status now as a country or where do 661 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,359 Speaker 1: you think we are in terms of is this still 662 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: a pandemic or is an endemic. Now it's hard to 663 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: say biologically exactly mean so endemic, what it means is 664 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: in her immunity. What it means is every additional person 665 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: infected insects one or fewer people. In that sense, we're 666 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: not as herd immunity because the number of cases is rising, 667 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: so each additional person infected. But in a different sense, 668 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,240 Speaker 1: the pandemic could be over as soon as we decide 669 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: it's over. The pandemic really is in some sense, is 670 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,959 Speaker 1: the set of responses we've taken to the biological fact 671 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: of the spread of this virus. The herd immunity means 672 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: that there's sufficiently large faction of the population that uh, 673 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: that isn't uh it isn't at risk of spreading the 674 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: disease very very sharply if they were to be exposed, 675 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: because if they're supposed to it, they don't get it. 676 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: With a virus like this one, you can move in 677 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: and out of herd immunity, right, you can get You 678 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 1: can be protected against infection for a while, and then 679 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 1: your community declines over time against against infection and so 680 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 1: you get it again. The common cold is like this, right, 681 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: there's herd immunity for common cold, your protection against it 682 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: declines over time, and then you might be exposed as 683 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: to like another corner that's the same cornervirus that before, 684 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: and then you you get it against several times in 685 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: your life. But the second, third, fourth time that doesn't 686 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:57,280 Speaker 1: produce severe disease because you have immune mechanisms cellular immunity 687 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: and other mechanisms of immunity that use the harm from 688 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: being infected reduced it so you don't you don't end 689 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: up in the hospital, you don't die if you get 690 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: it's just a cold. That is I think the endpoint 691 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: is epidemic herd immunity, endemic equilibrium. What it means. All 692 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 1: that means is UM is that the virus isn't spreading 693 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: sharply because a sufficially number of men people have that 694 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 1: for times. But the key thing is not that. The 695 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 1: key thing is the protection against severe disease, which I 696 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: think we are in the midst of getting UM naturally. 697 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,320 Speaker 1: I mean, people seem to have a lot of protection 698 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: against severe reinfections, and I think, uh, you know, I 699 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: think that that's the direction we're ahead of this, this 700 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: decoupling of cases and to end ut and severe outcomes. 701 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: Do you think we should be more careful in our 702 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: vaccination status in the sense I mean we are seeing 703 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: myocarditis and heard issues uh, you know, correlated to the vaccines, 704 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: particularly among younger people who aren't as susceptible to ending 705 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 1: up in the hospital or dying. I mean, should there 706 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: be a little bit more transparency and honesty around some 707 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: of those conversations and the potential adverse effects of the 708 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: vaccines on certain groups of people? Absolutely? Right, I think 709 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: the vaccination should be a personal medical decision based on 710 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: the risk of vaccine to the person in that group, UM, 711 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: and and the benefits of vaccines for that group. Right. So, 712 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 1: a young male who is COVID recovered UM, is there 713 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 1: any reason to vaccinate them? They faced the risk of 714 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 1: markett it is from the from the vaccine, which just 715 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's not it's enormous, but it's like it's 716 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: you know, one in five thousand one and something on 717 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: that order, UM versus where. But the benefit they get 718 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: is so little because they're already COVID recovered UM. Whereas 719 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 1: an older person who's not been exposed to virus previously 720 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: uh faces a high risk of death or or you 721 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 1: know high meaning like four, three, four or five percent 722 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: of death if they were to get infected. UM, the 723 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: vaccine might be quite a good idea. UM. So it 724 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 1: really depends on who you are, your your medical circumstances. 725 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: It should be a personal medical decision you make in 726 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,799 Speaker 1: consultation with your physician, not something that's forced on you 727 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,399 Speaker 1: by public health and in the way it has been. 728 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,400 Speaker 1: But do you think physicians are up to that task 729 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: in the sense of I have found in my conversations 730 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,760 Speaker 1: with a lot of different people that some doctors actually 731 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: don't seem to have as full of knowledge of like 732 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 1: data and the bigger picture of things. Like someone one 733 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 1: time was like, well, Trump got the vaccine to me 734 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: because I made the decision to not get the vaccine. 735 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: And the only reason I was vocal with it as 736 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: I felt like someone like me can take bullets more 737 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: easily than someone getting fired for making the same decision 738 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: that doesn't have the platform that I have. So I 739 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 1: decided to go out publicly and try, you know, I 740 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: wrote that op ed in Newsweek, really trying to articulate 741 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: the fact that people are making decision aren't rubes, like 742 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: they've actually really thought through this, and it doesn't make 743 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 1: sense for them personally, whether they're young and healthy such 744 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 1: as myself, or they have prior you know, immunity, right, 745 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: And so that's why I went out and and and 746 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: and did that. But you know, I had a doctor 747 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: one time and be like, well, you know, Trump got vaccinated, 748 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, he's like seventy five, and you know, 749 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: his health condition is entirely different than mine. You know, 750 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: he probably is a little overweight, he's much older than me, 751 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: so his risk is severely higher than mine. So like 752 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: that doesn't even make sense. So I I don't know. 753 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: I mean, our doctors really up to that task in 754 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: the sense a lot of them really haven't gone through 755 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,399 Speaker 1: the data in the same way that you have. I mean, 756 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,760 Speaker 1: I think traditionally the way that doctors get educated about 757 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 1: these kinds of data is not by reading the papers 758 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: themselves amazingly, um, but by participating in professional activities where 759 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,479 Speaker 1: they get essentially like the summaries of this information put 760 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: to them. Right, these things called continuing medical education credits 761 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: that every doctor is supposed to get so that they 762 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: they're always learning. The way that the discussion about the 763 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 1: vaccines and about sort of how to think about natural 764 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 1: immunity has been spread through the medical community has been 765 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: been really lacking in my view. A lot of the 766 00:39:54,960 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: educational activities have emphasized the importance of vaccination without talking 767 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 1: through the nuances about who it's really useful for, what 768 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 1: the side effect profiles are, and it's been in service 769 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: of a public health goal to get everyone vaccinated rather 770 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,319 Speaker 1: than a personal health goal to make sure that the 771 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 1: doctor is giving you the best possible advice for your 772 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,359 Speaker 1: own personal health circumstance. I think if we shift back 773 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: to a normal footing where doctors are looking out for 774 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 1: the their patients as opposed to playing the part of 775 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: public health and forces for the population at large, we 776 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,880 Speaker 1: will have doctors giving good, reasonable advice again, but that 777 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: has to be a decision made by public health authorities. 778 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 1: Places like the NIH play an enormously important role in that. 779 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: So when it's led by someone like uh like Francis 780 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: Collins or Tony Fauci, who have essentially an ideological almost 781 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: seems commitment to making forcing everyone, no matter what the 782 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,439 Speaker 1: harm to society, to get the vaccine, regardless of whether 783 00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: they consent to it or not, you're gonna get is distrust. 784 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,319 Speaker 1: Not just the public competent doctors as well. And what 785 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: you said is right. I mean, like, I think a 786 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: lot of people have lost trust with their doctors as 787 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: a result. Again that I don't think that's a good 788 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,839 Speaker 1: thing at least, I think that doctors, it's really necessary 789 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 1: that we be able to trust our doctors because doctors 790 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: are so important for the health of personal health and 791 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 1: for the health of population at large. Um And I 792 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 1: think medicine is going to need to do some self 793 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,320 Speaker 1: reflection trying to get that trust back, because I have 794 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: been fortunate to you know, I've reached out to a 795 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,360 Speaker 1: ton of different people involve different walks of life in 796 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 1: the medical and science fields to try to get information 797 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 1: for them and to try to learn that way, because 798 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 1: you know, that's how we all learn the most, is 799 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:40,880 Speaker 1: by asking a bunch of questions and then trying to 800 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 1: take that information from people and trying to come to 801 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: you know, what I think is the correct information or 802 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:47,799 Speaker 1: the right decision with all of that, which is how 803 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,839 Speaker 1: I know concluded to not get the vaccine of also 804 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: just having questions about you know, most vaccines we've got 805 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 1: like five to ten years of data. We don't have 806 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,319 Speaker 1: that for these and so if I'm not higher risk. 807 00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 1: I'd rather just wait it out and see what we 808 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,400 Speaker 1: you know, learned from it moving forward, you know, versus 809 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 1: obviously higher risk people might not be able to make 810 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 1: that same decision because they're more at risk. But we're 811 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: just at this such an odd place in society where 812 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,479 Speaker 1: it's just, you know, the truth really isn't out there 813 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,399 Speaker 1: as much. You know. Dr Scott Atlas had said something 814 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 1: when I interviewed him recently that really stood out to me, 815 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: and he had just talked about sort of the profound 816 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,080 Speaker 1: impact that even the ni AH has on science and 817 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,799 Speaker 1: the fact that so much of science is funded by 818 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: the ni AGE and the United States and some of 819 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: some of these other agencies, and so therefore it really 820 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: dictates sort of the broader landscape of science and the 821 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: conversations that we're having. Can you just talk about the 822 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,839 Speaker 1: funding aspect of it and how that is controlled by 823 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 1: some of these government agencies and the problem of that. Sure, 824 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 1: So I spent my career at a at a medical school, 825 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,759 Speaker 1: at mc Medical School UM. In order to advance your 826 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:57,840 Speaker 1: career in a place like Stanford University in the medical school, 827 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 1: you have to have NIH funding. It's it's almost a requirement, right, 828 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: It's it's just marker of success as a scientists that 829 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,719 Speaker 1: you are able to garner funding from competitive funding from 830 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,360 Speaker 1: the NIH. Like every time I put a granted grant application, 831 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,799 Speaker 1: and I think it's like, you know, one in one 832 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 1: in ten or one in one in fifteen grants actually 833 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,799 Speaker 1: get funded. So it's a a great success if you 834 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 1: managed to do that. Um. Now, the problem is that 835 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,200 Speaker 1: with that is that it's creates the incentives that you 836 00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:30,040 Speaker 1: have to align your research agenda with the NIH. And 837 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 1: sometimes that's reasonable. The NIH UH may direct scientists towards 838 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:39,319 Speaker 1: studying something like Alzheimer's because such a serious problem for 839 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,959 Speaker 1: so many and and putting a lot of scientists minds 840 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,600 Speaker 1: focused on that one problem could be a very productive thing, 841 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,440 Speaker 1: but can also, as we found through the epidemic, be 842 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:52,920 Speaker 1: a danger. So you get one person, Tony Facci, who 843 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: has been sitting on top of a huge pile of 844 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 1: money funding the careers and making and breaking the careers 845 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:03,879 Speaker 1: of account of scientists over forty years based on his 846 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 1: priorities for what infects of these reasoners focused on what happening? 847 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,040 Speaker 1: Theologists focused on Well, um, you know a lot of 848 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,319 Speaker 1: scientists stayed silent even though they were uncomfortable with the 849 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 1: policies in the lockdown because they didn't want to risk 850 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,839 Speaker 1: not getting funded by Tony Facci's and I A D. 851 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,719 Speaker 1: When Francis Collins, the head of the n i H, 852 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,280 Speaker 1: essentially says these Great Branch and decoration people are are terrible. 853 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,160 Speaker 1: We should wage a propaganda war against them. Well, no one, 854 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 1: no scientists who's thinking about their career, unless they're very 855 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: brave or very foolish, is going to speak up and 856 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,560 Speaker 1: say look, this is this is um these lockdowns are 857 00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,560 Speaker 1: really bad idea. I agree with a great branch of 858 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,120 Speaker 1: that question. Very very few scientists will will want to 859 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:47,799 Speaker 1: do that ever to their career. I mean, I can 860 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 1: understand why, right, it's they they're working on things that 861 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,320 Speaker 1: are remote from from COVID or the Great Branch Decoration. 862 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 1: They just there's no reason for them to speak up, 863 00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,759 Speaker 1: to stick their neck out, and so they won't even 864 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 1: if they probably should. UM. So what you have is 865 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,400 Speaker 1: a situation where a legitimate role and I just to 866 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 1: help direct the attention of scientists on important problems. But 867 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 1: we've seen the leadership of the NIH, including Collins and Sauci, 868 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:20,880 Speaker 1: them use that legitimate power illegitimately to essentially silence scientific discussion. 869 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:26,560 Speaker 1: UM and it's undermined trust in science, it's undermine trust 870 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,200 Speaker 1: in public health, and as as we just talked about, 871 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,640 Speaker 1: undermine trust in medicine. Had enormous negative consequences for institutions 872 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:35,799 Speaker 1: that I think most Americans before the pandemic had a 873 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,440 Speaker 1: lot of respect for. Is that self preservation because obviously 874 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,480 Speaker 1: there's been concerns that the NIH funding went to, you know, 875 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,759 Speaker 1: the funding of back coronaviruses and that research at the 876 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 1: Wuhan Laboratory. I mean, is it self preservation from Dr 877 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,160 Speaker 1: Fauci or why has he adopted this approach? Like what's 878 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,960 Speaker 1: behind it? In your estimation? I don't know whether it 879 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,239 Speaker 1: was um and lobly, but what I do know is 880 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:07,759 Speaker 1: that that ni H, with the the explicit sign off 881 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:12,440 Speaker 1: of Fauci and Collins, funded gain a function research that 882 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,080 Speaker 1: was incredibly controversial. So in two thousand and fourteen there 883 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,360 Speaker 1: was actually a pause put on gain a function research 884 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,719 Speaker 1: because there was a paper where that someone has published 885 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,239 Speaker 1: in Science funded by the ANI agent part that it 886 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:29,839 Speaker 1: had managed to take an avian flu virus and make 887 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,080 Speaker 1: it able to infect human self people were very very 888 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,839 Speaker 1: upset by this. UM. The argument for why they did 889 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:37,359 Speaker 1: this was, what, we need to find out how many 890 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,879 Speaker 1: mutations it would take in order for the this av 891 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,600 Speaker 1: and flu virus to mutate so that you can affect humans. 892 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:44,640 Speaker 1: And it turns out it wasn't that many, and so 893 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:46,279 Speaker 1: they're like, oh, well, we have to be prepared for this. 894 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,120 Speaker 1: But at the same time people were worried what if 895 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,520 Speaker 1: it could be allably lots of lots of examples of 896 00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,480 Speaker 1: lab belief that have happened dangerous ones. Uh and so 897 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,919 Speaker 1: there was a pause put on this where in order 898 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,680 Speaker 1: to do research that involved all of this gain of 899 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:02,840 Speaker 1: function work gain of functioning you take a virus and 900 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:06,200 Speaker 1: give it new capabilities that didn't previously have, you needed 901 00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:09,319 Speaker 1: to get explicit sign off from Tony Fauci and from 902 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,799 Speaker 1: Frances Collins, and they signed off a whole bunch of 903 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:18,840 Speaker 1: grants from fourteen on despite the pause. UM and UM. 904 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 1: So they bear responsibility for the funding, and including by 905 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,160 Speaker 1: the way, Peter Dazac and the and the Equal Health 906 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:29,480 Speaker 1: Alliance which cooperated with the with the Wuhan Lab very closely, 907 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,200 Speaker 1: so they funded a lot of this work. And I 908 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,560 Speaker 1: don't know for a fact that that's what's motivating them, 909 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:39,200 Speaker 1: because that's that's frankly in the retrospective embarrassing thing that 910 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,160 Speaker 1: they did. It was a lapse in judgment, wasn't a 911 00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,200 Speaker 1: wise use of of n I H resources of American 912 00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: tax about paid tax carder dollars? Um and uh. I mean, 913 00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:51,680 Speaker 1: you wouldn't surprise me to know that that this is 914 00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:53,640 Speaker 1: partly with motivating them. I don't think it's all. It 915 00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:55,960 Speaker 1: can't be all of it, because why focus on these 916 00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,560 Speaker 1: destructive lockdowns. I think that partly is just a failure 917 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,280 Speaker 1: of understand that there were alternate policies that were available 918 00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:04,680 Speaker 1: that would have reduced the harm for the virus and 919 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,560 Speaker 1: also from the lockdowns. Um. But but you know, I 920 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:12,200 Speaker 1: do think that that this sort of desire to like 921 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,080 Speaker 1: make up for this poor judgment that they had must 922 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,600 Speaker 1: have played some role. Well. I also just think there's 923 00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:19,799 Speaker 1: a level of arrogance because someone had mentioned to me 924 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,080 Speaker 1: earlier on in the pandemic to sort of like explained 925 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,439 Speaker 1: Dr Fauci to me, is this is a guy who 926 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,719 Speaker 1: flew that a bowl of patient from Texas I think, 927 00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:30,960 Speaker 1: to the n I age in Maryland so that he 928 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,160 Speaker 1: could treat her himself, put on a hazmat suit for 929 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,359 Speaker 1: the cameras, did a bunch of interviews when she would 930 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,080 Speaker 1: have just been fine, like staying in Texas. So it 931 00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,520 Speaker 1: was like basically he like did this whole thing for himself, like, 932 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,239 Speaker 1: you know, so that he could like basically be in 933 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: the glory. I agree. I mean there's some element of 934 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:51,120 Speaker 1: self promotion in his in his in the way he 935 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,880 Speaker 1: behaves that it's um so unseemly like frankly, should should 936 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:56,520 Speaker 1: we really know the name of the head of the 937 00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:58,759 Speaker 1: ANI D? Yeah, I think the head of an I 938 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,279 Speaker 1: is important position, but shouldn't be someone who's so in 939 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:04,799 Speaker 1: the public eye, you know. Do you think that part 940 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,120 Speaker 1: of the problem is so we see this with like 941 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,080 Speaker 1: politicians very often. Right, You've got like all these people, 942 00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,239 Speaker 1: like most of our leaders, you know, I mean, you 943 00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,160 Speaker 1: don't have to get any bit like Pelosi, even like 944 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:16,960 Speaker 1: all these guys have been in the public office for 945 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:18,799 Speaker 1: like decades. So it's like, how do you solve some 946 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,000 Speaker 1: of the problems that you've literally been a part of 947 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,120 Speaker 1: making right? And so do you think some of that 948 00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,600 Speaker 1: is true for these public health bureaucrats in the sense of, 949 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,160 Speaker 1: you know, they've been in government for so long that 950 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,000 Speaker 1: they're sort of out of the game or they can't 951 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,880 Speaker 1: really solve these problems or bring a fresh approach when 952 00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:35,359 Speaker 1: they've kind of been a part of the problem where 953 00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:36,960 Speaker 1: they've been a part of the system for too long. 954 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:38,719 Speaker 1: Do we need to kind of take a fresh look 955 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,600 Speaker 1: at bringing in, you know, different voices and different people 956 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:43,919 Speaker 1: who have you been out in the field a little 957 00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:47,120 Speaker 1: bit fresher and you know, not been bureaucrats for so long? 958 00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,440 Speaker 1: I do? I think I think that that someone like 959 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:51,680 Speaker 1: that Dr Fauci, who has been in his position at 960 00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,319 Speaker 1: the head of the nmity for forty years on that way, 961 00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,520 Speaker 1: or something on that order or years I've done an 962 00:49:57,520 --> 00:49:59,960 Speaker 1: exact number, but something a very very, very long time. 963 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,040 Speaker 1: Just by dint of being in such power for so long, 964 00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:07,080 Speaker 1: you essentially create this insular sense where where like, you know, 965 00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,120 Speaker 1: no one's going to talk back to you, no one's 966 00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,600 Speaker 1: gonna like tell to contradict you, and you you there's 967 00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:14,520 Speaker 1: this feedback loop where you start to think you're always 968 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:19,000 Speaker 1: right because no one's contradicting always everyone is always praising you. Um, 969 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,719 Speaker 1: it's really dangerous for any leader to be in that position. 970 00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:27,520 Speaker 1: Right the Greeks, the Romans, when a when a successful 971 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,600 Speaker 1: Roman general that have this major parade through Rome, that 972 00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,080 Speaker 1: have someone that that someone whispering in their ear and 973 00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:34,920 Speaker 1: at the head of the parade, and it was everyone's 974 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,000 Speaker 1: praising him. Look, you're only mortal, You're not a god, 975 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,160 Speaker 1: You're only mortal. Right. So, UM, I think someone in 976 00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:44,680 Speaker 1: a position like um Tony Faccy for for such a 977 00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:48,520 Speaker 1: long time, where he's controlled the budgets of careers of 978 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:53,480 Speaker 1: countless incredibly bright scientists, all of them are telling essentially 979 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:55,719 Speaker 1: a very strong incentives to like to tell him you 980 00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,520 Speaker 1: know that he's doing a good job. Um. It's it's 981 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:04,719 Speaker 1: a dangerous kind of mixture of of power and science, 982 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,880 Speaker 1: um and and it and it creates a kind of 983 00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,080 Speaker 1: corruption that's really hard to undo unless you have essentially 984 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,720 Speaker 1: term limits or something. I think no, no one human 985 00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:16,279 Speaker 1: should ever be in that position for so long. See 986 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,920 Speaker 1: you've congratulations on the Academy for Science and Freedom with 987 00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:24,160 Speaker 1: Hillsdale College. You Dr Scott Atlas and Dr Martin colderfans 988 00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,000 Speaker 1: started uh this academy. You know, what do you guys 989 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,440 Speaker 1: hope to accomplish with it? And what are sort of 990 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:31,959 Speaker 1: the goals and the objectives with it. To me, that's 991 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,360 Speaker 1: it's twofold. So I think I think we've talked a 992 00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:37,279 Speaker 1: lot about about what's motivated is through the sole conversation these. 993 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,880 Speaker 1: I think the the trust in science because of the 994 00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,640 Speaker 1: lock the failures in the lock around the lockdown, is 995 00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:47,400 Speaker 1: at a low point, and in particular, the ability for 996 00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,759 Speaker 1: scientists to talk to one another freely without fear of 997 00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:55,560 Speaker 1: canceling is really hard the discussions lockdown. That needs reform. 998 00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,960 Speaker 1: So one is to restore the ability for scientists to 999 00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:02,520 Speaker 1: be free within science itself, and that may be involve 1000 00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,719 Speaker 1: reforms beyond just the lockdowns themselves, that scientists should be 1001 00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:07,440 Speaker 1: free to talk to one another without this sort of 1002 00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,759 Speaker 1: propaganda of more against it. The other thing is, um, 1003 00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:15,520 Speaker 1: what role does science play in a free society? Science 1004 00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,320 Speaker 1: is important, but we've had during this pandemic this idea 1005 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:24,280 Speaker 1: that science ought to completely structure all of our civic life. 1006 00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:28,440 Speaker 1: But in fact that's not right. Science helps you understand 1007 00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,480 Speaker 1: that about the way the physical world works. If I 1008 00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,520 Speaker 1: do a B might happen, but that doesn't say that 1009 00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,839 Speaker 1: I want BE to happen. Um, maybe I want CE 1010 00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,680 Speaker 1: to happen, right, So I'll do D instead, which D 1011 00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,080 Speaker 1: produces C. Whether you want B or C. Well, that's 1012 00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:47,680 Speaker 1: not a scientific question. That that's a question of ethics, 1013 00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,680 Speaker 1: of morality, of politics, of of a whole bunch of 1014 00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:54,560 Speaker 1: other social values that scientists have no ex special expertise. 1015 00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,920 Speaker 1: Science and free society is not are not the rulers 1016 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,000 Speaker 1: the scientists we study, Your advisors and the people who 1017 00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:07,640 Speaker 1: make decisions should take that into account. But it doesn't 1018 00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,040 Speaker 1: determine what's the right thing to do. Is it right 1019 00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,279 Speaker 1: to adopt a set of policies that mainly protect the 1020 00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,239 Speaker 1: laptop class at the expense of the working class and 1021 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,160 Speaker 1: the poor and the vulnerable. I mean, that's essentially what 1022 00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,600 Speaker 1: science said to do. We have to stop the virus 1023 00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,000 Speaker 1: and spreading, so we adopt these policies to protect only 1024 00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:27,879 Speaker 1: a certain class of people. Well, is that right? Well, 1025 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,680 Speaker 1: scientists have no monopoly and you should have no monopoly 1026 00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,239 Speaker 1: in that discussion or free society, and so part of 1027 00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:36,000 Speaker 1: the Academy is is to restore the proper place of 1028 00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,920 Speaker 1: science and a free society and to restore the ability 1029 00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,440 Speaker 1: for scientists to freely discuss with one another. Well, I 1030 00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:43,640 Speaker 1: appreciate you guys doing that, and you know you guys 1031 00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,680 Speaker 1: have been so brave and have had so much courage 1032 00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,520 Speaker 1: and really bring truth in a time where it's dire 1033 00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,160 Speaker 1: and you know it's dying and it's needed. You know what, 1034 00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,160 Speaker 1: before we go, what should the path forward be for 1035 00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:58,520 Speaker 1: the country and how we deal with COVID obviously knowing 1036 00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:00,520 Speaker 1: what we know now and knowing what we don't know 1037 00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:02,359 Speaker 1: in the future, but right now where we are in 1038 00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:06,200 Speaker 1: this what should the path forward look like? I think 1039 00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:08,680 Speaker 1: a few things. So one, we should vow never to 1040 00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:12,280 Speaker 1: to disrupt the lies of children ever again. Should restore 1041 00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,800 Speaker 1: normal life to children literally everywhere in the country. There's 1042 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,799 Speaker 1: no good reason to think about children as particularly particularly 1043 00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,360 Speaker 1: super spread as not since the beginning of the the epidemic, 1044 00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:24,759 Speaker 1: and the harm to them is just immorl uh. So 1045 00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,560 Speaker 1: we should end. We should restore normal life and children immediately. Next, 1046 00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:32,840 Speaker 1: we should stop a mass asymptomatic testing. Right. We shouldn't 1047 00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:36,680 Speaker 1: be forcing people and I'm I'm in favor of rapid 1048 00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:38,840 Speaker 1: energy and tests and other tests that allow people to 1049 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:41,520 Speaker 1: take charge of the risk in their lives. Right, So, 1050 00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,920 Speaker 1: before you go visit Grandma, you want to check with 1051 00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:46,400 Speaker 1: your positive if that makes some sense to me. So 1052 00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:48,480 Speaker 1: we should allow that to happen, we should have if 1053 00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,800 Speaker 1: we should encourage that. But another hand, forced to testing 1054 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:56,480 Speaker 1: and forced vaccination and coercion, that should end immediately, um 1055 00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,280 Speaker 1: because it's it's not it's produced social division without actually 1056 00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:03,040 Speaker 1: doing much far as a public health benefit. Those two 1057 00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:07,239 Speaker 1: steps would go a long way. For instance, and and 1058 00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:09,680 Speaker 1: and part of that the ending vaccine mandates and ending 1059 00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,400 Speaker 1: vaccine passports. I think we'd go a long way towards 1060 00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:15,280 Speaker 1: starting to restore the trust. Will need to actually address 1061 00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:20,680 Speaker 1: the remaining risk around this virus. Well, hopefully people adopt that. 1062 00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:22,600 Speaker 1: You know, there seems to be some hope when you've 1063 00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:25,440 Speaker 1: got people like Governor Jared Poulis of a Democrat from 1064 00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:29,320 Speaker 1: Colorado basically saying that you know, hey, the medical emergency 1065 00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:31,799 Speaker 1: phase of all this is over. You know, let's kind 1066 00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:35,400 Speaker 1: of move forward with her alive. So praying more governors 1067 00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,480 Speaker 1: take your advice and we can go back to normal. 1068 00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:41,120 Speaker 1: And I just feel like there's been so much harm 1069 00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:44,520 Speaker 1: to society even in just this blame game and you know, 1070 00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:47,319 Speaker 1: turning on our neighbors and it just you know, there's 1071 00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,360 Speaker 1: just been so much ugliness to the past couple of years. 1072 00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,879 Speaker 1: So praying people heed your your words of advice there. 1073 00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,000 Speaker 1: Dr J. Batachara, thank you so much for everything you've done. 1074 00:55:57,480 --> 00:55:59,960 Speaker 1: So much respect for you and and just appreciate your work, 1075 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:01,600 Speaker 1: can your voice and all of this, and and thank 1076 00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:03,439 Speaker 1: you so much for your time, sir. It's an honor. 1077 00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:14,719 Speaker 1: Thank you great to talk with you. I want to 1078 00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:18,520 Speaker 1: thank Dr J. Batcharia again for such a great interview 1079 00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,160 Speaker 1: and just the honesty. It's so nice to have people 1080 00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,000 Speaker 1: like him to turn to during all this chaos, all 1081 00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:26,759 Speaker 1: the noise, all the craziness. I want to thank you 1082 00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,919 Speaker 1: guys at home for listening. If you enjoy today's show, 1083 00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,080 Speaker 1: please leave us a review. You can rate us five 1084 00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:35,040 Speaker 1: stars and Apple Podcast It means a lot. You can 1085 00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:38,520 Speaker 1: find me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook at Lisa Marie Booth. 1086 00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,320 Speaker 1: I want to thank or team producer John Castio and 1087 00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:44,560 Speaker 1: Drew Steele who stepped up this week to bring you 1088 00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,840 Speaker 1: this podcast. Executive producers Debbie Myers and Speak Renew the 1089 00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,680 Speaker 1: English as well, all part of the Gingridge three sixty 1090 00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:52,640 Speaker 1: network and team