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Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show

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Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news.

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Speaker 1: The world is full of books proposing counterintuitive claims about

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Speaker 1: the way things are. You could even say books like

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Speaker 1: that are a dime a dozen, But doctor Carl Hart's

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Speaker 1: book Drug Used for Grown Ups is exceptional, and I

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Speaker 1: might even call it unique. You may have heard about

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Speaker 1: it in the press recently. Doctor Hart provocatively argues that drugs,

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Speaker 1: including drugs like heroin, are much safer physiologically than we

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Speaker 1: ordinarily think, and that the major dangers, including the dangers

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Speaker 1: of addiction, come from comorbidities, risks that people have associated

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Speaker 1: with mental illness and poverty, and not from the physiological

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Speaker 1: substrate of these drugs themselves. He goes further than that,

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Speaker 1: suggesting that we need a radical reform in light of

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Speaker 1: a new understanding of drugs as having far fewer negative

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Speaker 1: effects than we believe and far more positive effects associated

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Speaker 1: with the altering of consciousness than we usually consider. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Hart is a professor of neuroscience and psychology at Columbia University,

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Speaker 1: where he's been chair of his department, and his research

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Speaker 1: focuses on the physiological and behavioral effects of psychoactive drugs.

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Speaker 1: The book is heavily deeply footnoted, as I learned by

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Speaker 1: reading it closely and going into the footnotes. At the

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Speaker 1: same time, it's a highly accessible and indeed personalized account

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Speaker 1: of a serious and complex set of issues with major

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Speaker 1: consequences for how power is distributed in our society, including

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Speaker 1: an in particular on the basis of race and racialized hierarchies.

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Speaker 1: Drug Use for Grownups is one of the most thought

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Speaker 1: provoking books I've read this year, and I had to

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Speaker 1: have doctor Hart on the show. Doctor Hart, welcome to

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Speaker 1: deep background. Let's dive in by starting with a crucial

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Speaker 1: definition that you provide at the beginning of the book

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Speaker 1: that really follows us all the way through, and that

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Speaker 1: is the definition of the word addiction. And you say

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Speaker 1: in the book that you're going to use the definition

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Speaker 1: of addiction borrowed from the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical

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Speaker 1: manual that psychologists use, and that that definition of addiction

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Speaker 1: entails not just that you are using a substance regularly,

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Speaker 1: but that it is negatively affecting a major life activity

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Speaker 1: and that it's causing distress to the user. And under

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Speaker 1: that definition if someone drings coffee every morning but negatively

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Speaker 1: affect the person. Even though you know, if I don't

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Speaker 1: get my coffee, i have headaches or I'm cranky, I'm

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Speaker 1: not addicted. Right, that's right. I mean you can imagine

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Speaker 1: people who drink coffee, people who drink alcohol or other substances,

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Speaker 1: and their life is not impacted. They're able to meet

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Speaker 1: all of the obligations. Why would we say that they

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Speaker 1: have an addiction problem. Like in this culture, we have

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Speaker 1: this popular saying of functional adding. There is no such thing.

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Speaker 1: That's a Nazi mourn by definition of addiction, that means

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Speaker 1: you're not functional, you're not meeting your obligations. And so

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Speaker 1: simply based on what people put in their body or

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Speaker 1: what they're using, if you use that as a definition

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Speaker 1: of addiction, everybody would be labeled an adding I think

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Speaker 1: the thing that I was so fascinated about in your

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Speaker 1: clarity about pointing this out about addiction is that you're

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Speaker 1: a neuroscientist. So at least in principle, you're supposed to

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Speaker 1: be a physiology guy. But that definition is way bigger

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Speaker 1: than the physiological definition. Right, No, that's right. So you

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Speaker 1: know the goal of neuroscience is to try to explain

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Speaker 1: human behavior. And if you're going to explain human behavior,

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Speaker 1: you can only look at the brain. You have to

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Speaker 1: understand the animal of the human in its social context.

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Speaker 1: Without the context, you will make some mistakes about what's

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Speaker 1: going on without understanding the context. And so I think

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Speaker 1: most of us who understand anything about human behavior know

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Speaker 1: that we need to understand the social contact and under

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Speaker 1: which the behavior happens, because you can imagine some behavior

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Speaker 1: happening in one context maybe inappropriate, whereas it's entirely appropriate

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Speaker 1: in another. Let's say somebody physically assaults somebody and that's

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Speaker 1: all you know, and it turns out the person who

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Speaker 1: physically assaulted the other person was a defensive end for

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Speaker 1: the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, and he physically assaulted the quarterback

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Speaker 1: for Kansas City. On the field, that's entire appropriate, But

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Speaker 1: off of the field that's not appropriate. So context is everything.

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Speaker 1: It sure is, And that's a great example. Let's move

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Speaker 1: on to another really important topic for you, and that

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Speaker 1: is you condemn the language of harm reduction that tends

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Speaker 1: to surround our discussions about drugs. Say more about that,

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Speaker 1: because on the surface, harm reduction sounds like the most

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Speaker 1: who could argue with it, you know, idea in the world,

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Speaker 1: and yet in your view that framing of harm reduction

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Speaker 1: has had disastrous consequences. Yeah, I just want to be clear.

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Speaker 1: You know, in principle, what people do with harm reduction,

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Speaker 1: they try to help folks who are in need of help.

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Speaker 1: I support that. The thing that I had took issue with,

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Speaker 1: it's just the term harm reduction. We do harm reduction

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Speaker 1: when we brush our teeth in the morning, we want

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Speaker 1: to avoid cavities, we put on our seatbelt, we want

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Speaker 1: to avoid any sort of harm that might come if

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Speaker 1: we had a car crash. But we don't call that

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Speaker 1: harm reduction, and we reserve the term harm reduction only

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Speaker 1: for drugs. And when you do that, you pair the

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Speaker 1: word harm with drugs over and over in our language,

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Speaker 1: shapes how we behave, how we think. So I'm asking

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Speaker 1: folks maybe reconsider another term, like we're really trying to

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Speaker 1: enhance the health and happiness and safety of folks, and

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Speaker 1: so maybe health and happiness, But to focus exclusively on

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Speaker 1: harms associated with drugs seems shortsighted. Most people are using

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Speaker 1: drugs to enhance the pleasure to have a good time

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Speaker 1: to alter their consciousness. We're not thinking about harm so much,

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Speaker 1: but this term harm reduction forces us in this sort

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Speaker 1: of unique dimensional space, as if harms are the only

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Speaker 1: things that happen when you take drugs. I think the

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Speaker 1: reason that point that you're making was so powerful for

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Speaker 1: me and reading the book is that, like a lot

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Speaker 1: of what you do in the book, it just challenges

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Speaker 1: the reader to say, start somewhere different. You know. I

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Speaker 1: get the sense again and again reading your book that

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Speaker 1: what you're fighting against is preconceptions that have been kind

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Speaker 1: of drilled into our heads, and not by accident. It's

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Speaker 1: not just they're out there in the culture. They've been

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Speaker 1: created by the television that we've watched, the PSAs that

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Speaker 1: we've been seeing. If you're in our generation since we

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Speaker 1: were kids, and that the next generation is still getting

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Speaker 1: it's a full you know, I guess it's what the

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Speaker 1: sociologists would call a full discourse, you know, a full

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Speaker 1: set of ideas and language and beliefs that have been

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Speaker 1: created in a very self conscious way. Am I getting

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Speaker 1: you that you're trying to start us off by saying, hey, everybody,

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Speaker 1: take a deep breath and realize that you're in the

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Speaker 1: grips of these ideas and just question them. Doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: you have to reject them at the end, but start

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Speaker 1: by putting a question mark in front of them. That's

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Speaker 1: exactly right. In our culture, we've been inundated with these

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Speaker 1: messages about drugs that are largely inactress. And we've been

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Speaker 1: innovated with these messages because it facilitates some sort of

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Speaker 1: argument or some sort of position of the person who's

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Speaker 1: producing the messages. And it's really easy to say that

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Speaker 1: anybody who uses crack cocaine will become addicted, and we

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Speaker 1: all believe it. It's really easy to say one hit

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Speaker 1: of heroin and then you're addicted. And I'm asking people

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Speaker 1: to just reconsider this with the evidence, and I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to present evidence throughout the book that I hope people

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Speaker 1: will look at, consider and reconsider their starting point. Those

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Speaker 1: stories are so powerful. You know, I'm from Boston and

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Speaker 1: grew up as a big Celtics fan, and i remember

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Speaker 1: very very vividly as a kid when Len Bias died

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Speaker 1: of a cocaine overdose, or at least so it was reported,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the takeaway for kids, and I was

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Speaker 1: a kid was supposed to be you could die from

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Speaker 1: one use of cocaine. There was no serious analysis of

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Speaker 1: the history, the context, any of it. And I don't

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Speaker 1: actually know the facts of it except that, boy, did

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Speaker 1: it make a central impression on me as a kid.

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Speaker 1: You know, this was a terrifying, terrifying drug and you

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Speaker 1: should avoid it at all costs. Yeah, same here. I

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Speaker 1: came of age about that time. Not only did Lin

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Speaker 1: Baias die, a week later, Don Rogers died from the

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Speaker 1: Cleveland Browns, And so the message was this drug is

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Speaker 1: so unpredictable. Even one hit can take out the most

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Speaker 1: fit person in our society. That's just the overly simplistic message.

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Speaker 1: Nearly every day before COVID, at least at our institution

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Speaker 1: at Columnia University, we give cocaine to research subjects and

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Speaker 1: never have we seen such a thing like that. But

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Speaker 1: you know, it's in a controlled environment, in a medical setting.

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Speaker 1: But limbaias experience as the way it was reported in

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Speaker 1: the media just seemed to be an extreme aberration. But

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Speaker 1: that was the standard that was presented as if it

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Speaker 1: was the standard. The real troubling thing about the media's

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Speaker 1: approach to drugs is that the approach is done to

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Speaker 1: the sensationalized event and almost never done to actually help people,

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Speaker 1: help people who may be using a drug, or help

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Speaker 1: people who want a deeper understanding about these things. And

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Speaker 1: as a result, it shapes what we think, it shapes

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Speaker 1: our policies, and it contributes to the restricting of civil

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Speaker 1: liberties and a number of sort of things. And that's

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Speaker 1: the real concern that I have about the way that

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Speaker 1: the media covers drugs. And more importantly, you can be

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Speaker 1: completely wrong in your coverage of drugs and it's okay.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to be complete, and you can be

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Speaker 1: praised as a reporter in the media. And I wonder

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Speaker 1: if that maybe has connected all sort of harm reduction,

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Speaker 1: because if you said to a reporter or later on, well, gee,

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Speaker 1: you overstated the risk, the reporter will say, well, that

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Speaker 1: might be true, but we were reducing harm overall. If

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Speaker 1: people are more scared of drugs rather than less scared

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Speaker 1: of drugs, that's a good thing, because less drugs means

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Speaker 1: less harm. Yeah, you know, I think we even take

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Speaker 1: that approach in science. It's it's better to air on

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Speaker 1: the side of caution, and then that way, fewer people

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Speaker 1: will use it's like that would be okay if there

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Speaker 1: was not a price to pay. There is a big price,

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Speaker 1: but airing on the side of caution when you are incorrect.

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Speaker 1: For example, this past summer, we had a lot of

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Speaker 1: protests related to Black Lives Matter, the killing of George Floyd.

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Speaker 1: The killing of George Floyd is a good example because

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Speaker 1: we all saw Derek Schoulbin put his knee on George

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Speaker 1: Floyd's next for eight minutes and forty six seconds. We

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Speaker 1: all saw it. But George Floyd had some drugs in

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Speaker 1: his system, and now the story becomes, oh, the drugs

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Speaker 1: did it, even though we saw with our own eyes

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Speaker 1: what happened. But people are sensitized to believe anything about

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Speaker 1: drugs that's negative, and then we miss some important sort

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Speaker 1: of facts like that was a horrible act by this

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Speaker 1: police officer or other police officers. When they say something

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Speaker 1: like oh, they had PCP in their system. The public

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Speaker 1: has been sensitized to believe that PCP causes a superhuman strength,

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Speaker 1: causes people to have superhuman strength, which is nonsense. But

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Speaker 1: that's the price that we pay in that the police

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Speaker 1: can get away with harming people, killing people as long

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Speaker 1: as they scapegoat drugs in the process. That's the price

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Speaker 1: that we pay as a society for erroring on the

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Speaker 1: side of caution. People are susceptible to believe nonsense about drugs,

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Speaker 1: even when some abhorrent act has occurred against the person

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Speaker 1: who might have drugs in their system. I just want

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Speaker 1: to pause for a second to underscore the power of

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Speaker 1: the point you're making, because it goes to something really

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Speaker 1: subtle about your book that's actually really different from almost

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Speaker 1: all the other books that I've read on the topic.

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Speaker 1: You are making a very powerful point about the real world,

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Speaker 1: hierarchical and race based social impact of not only drug

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Speaker 1: enforcement but drug ideology, if I could call it that.

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Speaker 1: And you make that point again and again and again,

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Speaker 1: and very very successfully and powerfully, so much so that

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Speaker 1: when I was describing the book to friends because I've

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Speaker 1: been very excited having read it, several people said to

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Speaker 1: me who hadn't read the book yet. So, is this

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Speaker 1: a version of the familiar argument that we've now been

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Speaker 1: hearing off and on for the last five or ten

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Speaker 1: years about how the war on drugs has been effectively

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Speaker 1: a tool for racial hierarchy in the United States? And

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Speaker 1: what I kept on saying people is yes, heart makes

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Speaker 1: that argument, but that's not all the book is. The

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Speaker 1: book is also adding a separate argument that is analytically

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Speaker 1: distinct about the scientific reality underlying the assumptions that go

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Speaker 1: into the war on drugs. And what I was saying

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Speaker 1: was the book is trying to make both arguments in

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Speaker 1: relationship to each other. Yeah, that's one of the things

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Speaker 1: that motivated me to write this book. Putting together, for example,

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Speaker 1: the people who had been killed by police and they've

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Speaker 1: had drugs in their system, and that kind of stops

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Speaker 1: any sort of analysis about what actually happened. That's a

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Speaker 1: real concern because an injustice may have occurred and we

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Speaker 1: say it's okay because they had a drug in their system.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine the millions of Americans who may have

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Speaker 1: some metabolite, that is some byproduct of a drug in

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Speaker 1: their system and they happen to have some interaction with

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Speaker 1: someone and they're killed, and because they had a substance

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Speaker 1: in their system, their death is excused or disregarded because

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Speaker 1: of the fact that they had a substance in their system.

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Speaker 1: That would be a horrible injustice. And that's what I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to get Americans to look at so we avoid

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Speaker 1: anymore injustices. Let's talk science for a bit, and I

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Speaker 1: want to start with one of the most fascinating and

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Speaker 1: controversial claims in the book, which has to do with

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Speaker 1: calling on us to rethink the opioid crisis or opioid epidemic.

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Speaker 1: And I think you're making a bunch of different arguments here,

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Speaker 1: and I want to tease them all out so that

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Speaker 1: the listeners can really get a sense of them. So

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Speaker 1: the first one I think is that what we hear

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Speaker 1: about the increasing number of opioid deaths or opioid related deaths,

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Speaker 1: that some of that apparent increase may be a product

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Speaker 1: of reporting, that there's better reporting, or more reporting, or

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Speaker 1: maybe overreporting compared to what there was previously. That's just

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Speaker 1: the first of several claims. And the first thing I

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Speaker 1: want to ask you is what's the social scientific basis

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Speaker 1: for thinking that that might be the case. Yeah, if

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Speaker 1: we think about this, we think about who does death investigations.

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Speaker 1: In the United States, most death investigations are carried out

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Speaker 1: by corners. Corners and medical examiners both death investigations, but

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Speaker 1: corners do most. And we think about what are the

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Speaker 1: skill sets of corners. In order to be a corner,

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Speaker 1: all you need is a high school diploma in most

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Speaker 1: cases and a few hours of a death investigation course.

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Speaker 1: So the skill levels of corners are not that high

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Speaker 1: compared to a medical examiner, who is a physician who

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Speaker 1: generally has training in forensic pathology. And so now we

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Speaker 1: have these death investigations that are being happening all around

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Speaker 1: the country, and they're not uniform, that is, they're not

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Speaker 1: carried out in the same way. In some cases, we

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Speaker 1: don't even have biological confirmation of what drugs the person

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Speaker 1: actually had in their system number one. In other cases,

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Speaker 1: the person may have had multiple drugs. This is the

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Speaker 1: case for most overdose They have multiple drugs in their system,

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Speaker 1: including medications that they were prescribed. And also with a

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Speaker 1: number of deaths, people commit suicide intentionally. When you add

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Speaker 1: all of this to this sort of this mix, it's

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Speaker 1: really hard to tease a part what was the culprit

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Speaker 1: the cause of the person's death, because when multiple drugs

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Speaker 1: are involved, rarely does anyone bother to look at what

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Speaker 1: drug actually caused the death or did the combination cause

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Speaker 1: the death. And so when we say like these drug

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Speaker 1: related overdoses. We tend to focus on the opioids because

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Speaker 1: those are the drugs of the moment, but it doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that the opioid actually caused the death. Added to

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Speaker 1: that the fact that many people when they do street drugs,

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Speaker 1: may get tainted drugs, and so the drugs may be

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Speaker 1: tainted with other things that are more dangerous than the

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Speaker 1: drug that they were seeking. For example, if someone was

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Speaker 1: seeking heroin and they got analog, that analog can be

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Speaker 1: a lot more potent than heroin, therefore more unlikely to

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Speaker 1: cause overdose in an unsuspecting user. And so all of

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Speaker 1: this adds complexity to this overdose mix that is rarely

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Speaker 1: tease the part when we document the cause of death.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. I take the point

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Speaker 1: that our statistics are kind of problematic for all of

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Speaker 1: those reasons. And by the way, I had no idea

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Speaker 1: that most deathIn nittates are investigated by partners who don't

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Speaker 1: have medical training. I guess I'm a product of the

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Speaker 1: television age, and I always imagine a medical examiner involved.

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Speaker 1: So that's a totally fascinating fact that I had no

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Speaker 1: idea of. But let's imagine that we were able to

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Speaker 1: tease a part the data. Don't you think there would

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Speaker 1: be a rise in the number of deaths where opioids

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Speaker 1: were at least involved, even if the cause of the

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Speaker 1: death was the interaction between opioids and something else, or

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Speaker 1: tainted drugs, or a fentonyl based drug that was way

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Speaker 1: more powerful than the person who ended up using the

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Speaker 1: drug ever knew. I mean, you're not suggesting, are you

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Speaker 1: that the idea that there's a lot more opioids out

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Speaker 1: there and that there are a lot more deaths than

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Speaker 1: their word is not true, but rather that their connection

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Speaker 1: between those things, between the number of opoids and the

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Speaker 1: number of deaths hasn't been sufficiently substantiated. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: that we have to think about what changed, what changed

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Speaker 1: in this period where we see this increase. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that changed is that we now have more

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Speaker 1: phintonyl analogs or opioid synthetic opioids that are more potent

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Speaker 1: than heroin and these other sort of opioids of the

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Speaker 1: path that changed, and so it will be nice to

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Speaker 1: tease the part to see whether or not those are

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Speaker 1: the culprits of any increase that we see, and in

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Speaker 1: that way, If that's the case, we can approach this

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Speaker 1: problem by simply doing as some of the other countries

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Speaker 1: have done, implementing drug checking facilities where people can test

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Speaker 1: their substance to see if they contain adulterants that might

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Speaker 1: be potentially dangerous. And so, I don't really know what's

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Speaker 1: going on, but I know one of the things that

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Speaker 1: we can do is be more careful in discerning what

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Speaker 1: is happening so we can better protect our public. Part

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Speaker 1: of the reason that this part of your book is

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Speaker 1: so counterintuitive is that we have this narrative, which is

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Speaker 1: a new narrative associated with the opioids. It's different than

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Speaker 1: the narratives about cocaine or crack cocaine of the eighties,

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Speaker 1: and it's a narrative that big pharma, acting quote unquote

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Speaker 1: within the bounds of the law, pushed physicians to prescribe

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Speaker 1: lots of opioids that were themselves. Those opioids themselves were,

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Speaker 1: as it were regulated, they were legal drugs in the

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Speaker 1: sense that they were legal if they were prescribed. You

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Speaker 1: had physicians being under a lot of pressure and a

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Speaker 1: lot of incentive to prescribe them. And then the way

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Speaker 1: this narrative runs, people got addicted after having genuine, real

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Speaker 1: pain that was medically diagnosed, treated by opioids that were

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Speaker 1: medically prescribed, and then couldn't get off of those opioids,

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Speaker 1: and then that led them to illegal forms or other

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Speaker 1: forms of the drug that may have caused the actual death.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think you talk so much in the

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Speaker 1: book about the big Farma part of that story, and

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Speaker 1: so I really wanted to ask you, do you buy

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Speaker 1: that story? I mean, we're hearing it all the time.

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Speaker 1: I suppose big Pharma at one point they wanted to

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Speaker 1: deny the story. At this point they've changed strategies, right,

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Speaker 1: They've given up and realize their best bet is to

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Speaker 1: say we're sorry, that the companies who did the most

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Speaker 1: of this will pay large settlements. That the companies who

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Speaker 1: advise them were participating it will also take a hit

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Speaker 1: and pay large settlements, and they'll do what big companies

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Speaker 1: always do to try to move on to the next thing.

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Speaker 1: But the reason I think this is significant is that

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Speaker 1: it's a different story than the story of a new

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Speaker 1: drug came from the streets. This is a story of

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Speaker 1: a new set of drugs came from corporate America. And

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Speaker 1: I think it makes a lot of people skeptical about

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Speaker 1: arguments for legalization because this looks like a story of

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Speaker 1: what happens when a big corporation gets involved. The big

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Speaker 1: corporation turns into the drug pusher, according to this narrative,

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Speaker 1: and is way better at it in terms of quantity

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Speaker 1: than any number of street pushers could be, and the

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Speaker 1: consequences turn out to be really bad. Well, don't make

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Speaker 1: me defend the pharmaceutical industry. I have some contempt for

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Speaker 1: the industry, just like most Americans, whether it's opioids or

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Speaker 1: some other drug there. But that's part of capitalism. They're

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Speaker 1: in it to make money. The point here is that

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Speaker 1: the pharmaceutical company downplayed the addictive potential of something like oxycodo.

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Speaker 1: They downplayed that's a mistake and they should pay for that.

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Speaker 1: Now this narrative, they pushed the drugs onto people, and

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Speaker 1: these poor people got addicted as a result. That is

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Speaker 1: a little troubling because as a patient, as a person,

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Speaker 1: if you see yourself getting in trouble with something, you

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Speaker 1: bear some responsibility. And now this isn't to stay that

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Speaker 1: people shouldn't listen to their doctor, But if you're having problems,

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Speaker 1: if you're concerned that you are going to have some

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Speaker 1: withdrawal symptoms or something of that nature, you can not

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Speaker 1: take it. That's your responsibility too. I'm just trouble that

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Speaker 1: we think that it's okay to just completely absolve adults

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Speaker 1: responsibility in their own care. That will potentially lead us

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Speaker 1: down a horrible path. Let's dive into that a little bit,

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Speaker 1: because it's very provocative in the following way. We live

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Speaker 1: in a society where we're really unsure about personal agency

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Speaker 1: and responsibility in some zones, and addiction is one of

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Speaker 1: those zones, right. I mean, for a long time, the

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Speaker 1: society did have the view that someone who's a drug

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Speaker 1: addict it's his fault or her fault, and the society

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Speaker 1: assigned a lot of blame for that and was happy

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Speaker 1: to punish people. In recent years, it seems like there's

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Speaker 1: been a bit of a shift, and there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of talk about whether the shift is driven by the

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Speaker 1: largely white nature of the opioid crisis, and that may

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Speaker 1: well be the case, but regardless of the whether the

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Speaker 1: underlying cause is race driven, there has been a shift

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Speaker 1: to talking about people who have drug addictions as less

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Speaker 1: responsible and as less culpable, and that's usually associated that

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Speaker 1: shift is usually associated with reformist approaches. And so it's

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Speaker 1: interesting to hear you in the context of an argument

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Speaker 1: that's radically reformist, still making an argument for personal responsibility.

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Speaker 1: And I just wonder if you'd say more about that. No, see,

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Speaker 1: please understand you can hold two things in your hand

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Speaker 1: at month, right, and so that's this is a nuanced argument.

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Speaker 1: First of all, addiction has almost nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: the drug itself. That's a that's a myth. The vast

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Speaker 1: majority of people who are prescribed opioid pain pills, We're

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Speaker 1: talking ninety to ninety nine percent of those people never

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Speaker 1: become addicted. So the vast majority, so let's just be

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Speaker 1: clear about that. Now, that tells you this has little

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Speaker 1: to do with the drug. But we also know that

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Speaker 1: addiction has a lot to do with people who have,

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Speaker 1: for example, co occurring psychiatric illnesses depression, schizophrenia, anxiety. All

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Speaker 1: of those sorts of things increase the likelihood of someone

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Speaker 1: becoming addicted. So if that's the case, make sure people

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Speaker 1: co occurring psychiatric illnesses are treated. We also know that

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Speaker 1: addiction is much more likely in people who, for example,

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Speaker 1: who are under employed, unemployed, particularly those individuals who once

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Speaker 1: had middle class paying jobs, and now those jobs are gone,

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Speaker 1: and those people now do not have the status in

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Speaker 1: their community, in their home that they once had. Those

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Speaker 1: people are much more likely to become addicted to someone

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Speaker 1: who have not have to face that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: And so how about we make sure people are gainfully employed.

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Speaker 1: All of these sorts of things can be done to

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Speaker 1: make sure that we take care of our people and

431
00:27:44,276 --> 00:27:48,596
Speaker 1: ensure that they have a less likelihood of becoming addicted

432
00:27:48,716 --> 00:27:53,076
Speaker 1: or any other problems. Now that puts it on us

433
00:27:53,076 --> 00:27:56,716
Speaker 1: too as a society, But me, as a person, I

434
00:27:56,996 --> 00:28:03,836
Speaker 1: have responsibility in making sure that I notice when something

435
00:28:04,036 --> 00:28:07,236
Speaker 1: is going wrong. To be an adult means that you

436
00:28:07,396 --> 00:28:11,916
Speaker 1: do bear some responsible but it does not absolve the

437
00:28:11,956 --> 00:28:17,396
Speaker 1: state of its responsibility. I think that was very powerfully put.

438
00:28:18,276 --> 00:28:20,956
Speaker 1: It does make me think that you could imagine someone

439
00:28:21,076 --> 00:28:25,436
Speaker 1: who's a sympathetic reader saying something like this. Listen, you know,

440
00:28:25,556 --> 00:28:28,076
Speaker 1: doctor Hart, I've read your book, and I accept every

441
00:28:28,156 --> 00:28:31,236
Speaker 1: argument you make in there on the facts. But I

442
00:28:31,276 --> 00:28:34,676
Speaker 1: look at a statistic that says somewhere between ninety and

443
00:28:34,916 --> 00:28:38,596
Speaker 1: nine percent if people prescribe opioids don't get addicted, and

444
00:28:38,636 --> 00:28:41,676
Speaker 1: I say, okay, let's imagine that it's ten percent who do.

445
00:28:42,436 --> 00:28:44,516
Speaker 1: Then let's look break down the data and look at

446
00:28:44,516 --> 00:28:47,116
Speaker 1: who those ten percent are. And some of them are

447
00:28:47,156 --> 00:28:50,236
Speaker 1: people who, as you say, have mental illness or depression,

448
00:28:50,756 --> 00:28:55,796
Speaker 1: or alternatively, they're people whose risk factor is there fact

449
00:28:55,876 --> 00:28:59,196
Speaker 1: that they're poor because they've lost their jobs. So that's

450
00:28:59,236 --> 00:29:02,116
Speaker 1: not distributed fairly or justly across the society. So then

451
00:29:02,116 --> 00:29:04,876
Speaker 1: I might conclude if all that's true, and that say

452
00:29:04,916 --> 00:29:09,516
Speaker 1: ten percent are people who are particularly vulnerable, and whose

453
00:29:09,556 --> 00:29:13,196
Speaker 1: vulnerabilities are a product not of randomness but of structural

454
00:29:13,276 --> 00:29:18,516
Speaker 1: racism and other features, that's enough to end up with

455
00:29:18,596 --> 00:29:22,356
Speaker 1: a policy of strong prohibition. Even if it were the

456
00:29:22,436 --> 00:29:27,276
Speaker 1: case that there are stable, mentally healthy middle and upper

457
00:29:27,276 --> 00:29:31,276
Speaker 1: middle class people who could take opioids or other drugs

458
00:29:31,676 --> 00:29:34,316
Speaker 1: and be totally fine, and then to you know, to

459
00:29:34,316 --> 00:29:37,196
Speaker 1: conclude that even a little more strongly. You know, one

460
00:29:37,236 --> 00:29:39,236
Speaker 1: of the things that you talk about in your book

461
00:29:39,436 --> 00:29:42,676
Speaker 1: is that it's totally reasonable for people who have good

462
00:29:42,756 --> 00:29:46,036
Speaker 1: jobs and are you well adjusted to take drugs and well,

463
00:29:46,076 --> 00:29:51,276
Speaker 1: they're pretty much certainly couldn't be fine. But maybe that's

464
00:29:51,316 --> 00:29:53,556
Speaker 1: not where we should be focused. You know, maybe the

465
00:29:53,676 --> 00:29:59,156
Speaker 1: upside for those folks doesn't outweigh the downside for people

466
00:29:59,156 --> 00:30:01,916
Speaker 1: who are more vulnerable. How would you respond to that.

467
00:30:01,996 --> 00:30:04,396
Speaker 1: I would call it a sympathetic reading coupled with a

468
00:30:04,436 --> 00:30:07,476
Speaker 1: disagreement with your conclusion. Yeah, well, we would have the

469
00:30:07,556 --> 00:30:11,156
Speaker 1: ban alcohol of that, But we tried, right, I mean,

470
00:30:11,156 --> 00:30:13,236
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people thought we should ban alcohol.

471
00:30:13,676 --> 00:30:16,596
Speaker 1: We did ban alcohol, and then it went south and

472
00:30:16,716 --> 00:30:18,796
Speaker 1: we ended up unbanning it. But I mean, you know,

473
00:30:19,076 --> 00:30:20,636
Speaker 1: as a moral principle, I don't think you could be

474
00:30:20,676 --> 00:30:23,556
Speaker 1: wrong about that. I mean, I don't think prohibition was irrational.

475
00:30:23,636 --> 00:30:26,356
Speaker 1: Prohibition was highly rational. There was huge harm that was

476
00:30:26,396 --> 00:30:30,116
Speaker 1: being caused by alcohol, and it's just that the society

477
00:30:30,156 --> 00:30:34,636
Speaker 1: was unwilling to tolerate the social cost. Ultimately. Well, I

478
00:30:34,716 --> 00:30:40,396
Speaker 1: don't know, I think that's naive. We think about automobiles.

479
00:30:40,396 --> 00:30:44,676
Speaker 1: Every year we lose forty thousand Americans on the highway

480
00:30:44,756 --> 00:30:48,156
Speaker 1: because of car accidents. Well, we should probably think about

481
00:30:48,236 --> 00:30:51,356
Speaker 1: banning cars, and we can think about other activities that

482
00:30:51,596 --> 00:30:56,396
Speaker 1: people die in. People humans should understand that life is

483
00:30:56,476 --> 00:30:59,636
Speaker 1: not without risk. But you know, when we think about

484
00:30:59,716 --> 00:31:03,916
Speaker 1: restricting these things, first of all, the people who had

485
00:31:03,956 --> 00:31:07,836
Speaker 1: the means are still going to get their substances, and

486
00:31:07,956 --> 00:31:11,516
Speaker 1: we have these laws that ban these substances, and that

487
00:31:11,556 --> 00:31:15,796
Speaker 1: means that these laws will primarily affect those people who

488
00:31:15,916 --> 00:31:20,156
Speaker 1: don't have means. So those individuals will probably pay an

489
00:31:20,196 --> 00:31:24,156
Speaker 1: even higher price if we ban these substances, while the

490
00:31:24,196 --> 00:31:27,956
Speaker 1: people of means they're always going to be okay. They're

491
00:31:27,996 --> 00:31:31,636
Speaker 1: always going to get their substances because they can circummit

492
00:31:31,676 --> 00:31:35,916
Speaker 1: the laws in ways that the folks without means cannot.

493
00:31:37,436 --> 00:31:41,476
Speaker 1: There's a fascinating chapter in your book, Carl, about psychedelics,

494
00:31:41,676 --> 00:31:44,396
Speaker 1: where you begin by saying that, unlike lots of other drugs,

495
00:31:44,396 --> 00:31:46,956
Speaker 1: which you have experimented with in various ways are used,

496
00:31:46,996 --> 00:31:49,236
Speaker 1: you haven't done so much in the way of psychedelics.

497
00:31:49,956 --> 00:31:53,316
Speaker 1: But you observe that the mostly white, mostly upper middle

498
00:31:53,316 --> 00:31:55,676
Speaker 1: class people who are into psychedelics and it's a big

499
00:31:55,716 --> 00:32:00,396
Speaker 1: cultural movement these days, are at pains to differentiate themselves

500
00:32:00,796 --> 00:32:05,276
Speaker 1: from users from other drugs which are coded as less white,

501
00:32:06,156 --> 00:32:07,836
Speaker 1: and you have a sort of call for people to

502
00:32:07,876 --> 00:32:10,956
Speaker 1: be a little more open mind about this. Do you

503
00:32:10,996 --> 00:32:15,596
Speaker 1: want to say more about whether the movement towards legalizing psychedelics,

504
00:32:15,596 --> 00:32:18,916
Speaker 1: which does seem to be making progress is a useful

505
00:32:18,916 --> 00:32:22,236
Speaker 1: thing from your perspective insofar as it could be leverage

506
00:32:22,316 --> 00:32:24,636
Speaker 1: to achieve the social goals that you're looking for, or

507
00:32:24,636 --> 00:32:26,556
Speaker 1: whether you see it as actually part of the problem,

508
00:32:26,636 --> 00:32:29,396
Speaker 1: because it does rest to some extent, as you argue,

509
00:32:29,676 --> 00:32:32,356
Speaker 1: I think very convincingly on a kind of hierarchy of

510
00:32:32,396 --> 00:32:36,756
Speaker 1: good drugs versus bad drugs. Yeah, it troubles me if

511
00:32:36,836 --> 00:32:42,596
Speaker 1: someone says, oh, I use some ayahuasca or psilocybin to

512
00:32:43,116 --> 00:32:48,116
Speaker 1: achieve some spiritual enlightenment or to be one with the universe,

513
00:32:48,676 --> 00:32:54,476
Speaker 1: or to heal some problem I had, it's totally acceptable

514
00:32:54,556 --> 00:32:57,596
Speaker 1: at it in this day and age. Now if someone

515
00:32:57,716 --> 00:33:02,316
Speaker 1: says that I took her one and I felt great,

516
00:33:02,356 --> 00:33:05,716
Speaker 1: that person it's vilified. And when in fact the two

517
00:33:05,756 --> 00:33:10,956
Speaker 1: individuals are doing exactly the same thing. They are choosing

518
00:33:10,996 --> 00:33:15,556
Speaker 1: to alter their consciousness, They're doing exactly the same thing oftentimes.

519
00:33:15,636 --> 00:33:21,196
Speaker 1: And my point is that we're all doing the same thing.

520
00:33:21,836 --> 00:33:26,396
Speaker 1: So why not come and stand on behalf of those

521
00:33:26,436 --> 00:33:31,316
Speaker 1: people who have been vilified for doing exactly what you're doing?

522
00:33:31,876 --> 00:33:35,436
Speaker 1: I know why not? Because the sort of folks who

523
00:33:35,516 --> 00:33:39,796
Speaker 1: are enthusiasts of psychledelics don't really want to be associated

524
00:33:39,836 --> 00:33:43,516
Speaker 1: with those other drugs because of the baggage that those

525
00:33:43,556 --> 00:33:48,356
Speaker 1: other drugs carry, including the perception of the users being

526
00:33:48,396 --> 00:33:53,036
Speaker 1: predominantly non white. I get it. I understand that that's

527
00:33:53,036 --> 00:33:56,196
Speaker 1: why it happens. What I'm pointing out is that it's

528
00:33:56,316 --> 00:34:01,076
Speaker 1: wrong because those people who have been persecuted for using

529
00:34:01,116 --> 00:34:06,836
Speaker 1: heroin or cocaine there the penalties that they have faced

530
00:34:06,916 --> 00:34:10,356
Speaker 1: are very real, while these other folks face no penal

531
00:34:10,436 --> 00:34:13,516
Speaker 1: lease and not that they should face, but they should

532
00:34:14,116 --> 00:34:16,676
Speaker 1: stand up on behalf of those other people. And I'm

533
00:34:16,716 --> 00:34:21,836
Speaker 1: asking them to do this very thing. Speaking of baggage,

534
00:34:21,956 --> 00:34:24,236
Speaker 1: I intentionally waited till the end of the interview to

535
00:34:24,636 --> 00:34:27,156
Speaker 1: ask you about this, but it's been upfront in reviews

536
00:34:27,156 --> 00:34:28,796
Speaker 1: of your book, and you talk about it very frankly

537
00:34:28,796 --> 00:34:32,076
Speaker 1: in the book, and that is your own willingness to say.

538
00:34:32,156 --> 00:34:34,436
Speaker 1: You know for the record that for a few years

539
00:34:34,676 --> 00:34:38,636
Speaker 1: you've used heroin in a controlled setting, with controlled dosage.

540
00:34:38,796 --> 00:34:41,636
Speaker 1: You even describe in the book deciding to get off

541
00:34:41,676 --> 00:34:44,076
Speaker 1: of it and going through the withdrawal symptoms and how

542
00:34:44,076 --> 00:34:46,556
Speaker 1: you manage that, and then deciding to use it again.

543
00:34:47,476 --> 00:34:49,356
Speaker 1: And that grabs the attention to the media, and it

544
00:34:49,396 --> 00:34:51,556
Speaker 1: gets people to sit up and take notice when they're

545
00:34:51,556 --> 00:34:53,436
Speaker 1: reading the book review and say, oh, I'm going to

546
00:34:53,436 --> 00:34:55,316
Speaker 1: go out and buy this book because this is remarkable.

547
00:34:55,316 --> 00:34:58,996
Speaker 1: This is unusual someone would say this. When you think

548
00:34:59,036 --> 00:35:02,196
Speaker 1: deeply about how your decision came about to put it

549
00:35:02,236 --> 00:35:06,556
Speaker 1: in the book, did you weigh this issue. Did you

550
00:35:06,556 --> 00:35:08,396
Speaker 1: think to yourself, man, on the one hand, people are

551
00:35:08,396 --> 00:35:10,156
Speaker 1: really going to folk on this and the whole conversation

552
00:35:10,196 --> 00:35:12,836
Speaker 1: could end up being about that. But on the other hand,

553
00:35:13,316 --> 00:35:15,756
Speaker 1: it'll get more people to hear my message. Or did

554
00:35:15,796 --> 00:35:17,916
Speaker 1: you just think no, I just want to be honest

555
00:35:18,036 --> 00:35:21,156
Speaker 1: and damn the consequences. Oh, yeah, of course I thought

556
00:35:21,156 --> 00:35:25,316
Speaker 1: about this. I thought that people would read the book,

557
00:35:25,396 --> 00:35:28,676
Speaker 1: and I really cared about the people who are being

558
00:35:28,916 --> 00:35:33,076
Speaker 1: persecuted for having being identified as a heroin user or

559
00:35:33,116 --> 00:35:36,836
Speaker 1: some other vilified drug. So I thought about that group first,

560
00:35:36,876 --> 00:35:39,476
Speaker 1: and I thought that, you know, I know more about

561
00:35:39,556 --> 00:35:44,476
Speaker 1: drugs than most people, and so if anybody takes the

562
00:35:44,836 --> 00:35:47,876
Speaker 1: arrows and shots, let it be meet on behalf of

563
00:35:47,916 --> 00:35:51,716
Speaker 1: those people. That's what I thought. But frankly, I didn't

564
00:35:51,756 --> 00:35:56,036
Speaker 1: think that folks would lose their mind as some have,

565
00:35:56,676 --> 00:36:02,156
Speaker 1: for example, saying that you use heroin occasionally but regularly,

566
00:36:02,316 --> 00:36:04,556
Speaker 1: or something that that means that you're an addict. That

567
00:36:04,596 --> 00:36:08,916
Speaker 1: means that you have no control, you need help. Nobody's

568
00:36:09,116 --> 00:36:12,876
Speaker 1: stops to look at things like, oh, you just published

569
00:36:12,956 --> 00:36:15,756
Speaker 1: this book, which is really hard to do. You published

570
00:36:16,476 --> 00:36:19,396
Speaker 1: I published another book this year, It's really hard to do.

571
00:36:20,036 --> 00:36:25,516
Speaker 1: I have hundreds of scientific articles. Nobody stops to look

572
00:36:25,556 --> 00:36:29,756
Speaker 1: at things like my kids graduated from Ivy League institution,

573
00:36:29,956 --> 00:36:32,836
Speaker 1: all of these sorts of things. And so I wasn't

574
00:36:33,236 --> 00:36:37,476
Speaker 1: really I didn't think that would happen. I didn't think

575
00:36:37,756 --> 00:36:41,716
Speaker 1: the message would get to start it so badly. But

576
00:36:42,436 --> 00:36:46,036
Speaker 1: even still, even if I knew that, I wouldn't change

577
00:36:46,116 --> 00:36:50,436
Speaker 1: my mind, because it's the right thing to do. I'm

578
00:36:50,476 --> 00:36:56,636
Speaker 1: trying to get people to focus on not the drug itself,

579
00:36:57,076 --> 00:37:02,316
Speaker 1: but the individual's behavior. Is that person meeting their obligation?

580
00:37:02,516 --> 00:37:05,476
Speaker 1: Are they good people? All of these sorts of things

581
00:37:05,476 --> 00:37:08,236
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get people to focus on. But the

582
00:37:08,356 --> 00:37:12,716
Speaker 1: sort of current media frenzy about this is really just

583
00:37:12,916 --> 00:37:17,876
Speaker 1: proving my point. The vast majority of people have read

584
00:37:17,916 --> 00:37:20,796
Speaker 1: the book and understood this like you have. And that's

585
00:37:20,796 --> 00:37:26,236
Speaker 1: what I'm really happy about. Your comparison to religion I

586
00:37:26,276 --> 00:37:29,276
Speaker 1: think is exactly on point. And I always say to people,

587
00:37:29,796 --> 00:37:32,556
Speaker 1: you know, when you're in a supposedly secular context and

588
00:37:32,636 --> 00:37:36,196
Speaker 1: you see that a religious metaphor explains everyone's behavior as

589
00:37:36,236 --> 00:37:39,836
Speaker 1: it does here, you know you're in the presence of orthodoxy.

590
00:37:40,596 --> 00:37:43,836
Speaker 1: You know you're in the presence of a deep community

591
00:37:43,916 --> 00:37:47,876
Speaker 1: commitment to a set of beliefs that it's very costly

592
00:37:48,076 --> 00:37:52,436
Speaker 1: for anybody to dissent from because of the fear that

593
00:37:52,516 --> 00:37:56,236
Speaker 1: if one person speaks out and says, hey, this is

594
00:37:56,276 --> 00:38:03,236
Speaker 1: not true, the whole edifice, the whole structure of beliefs, customs, practices, interests,

595
00:38:03,316 --> 00:38:09,676
Speaker 1: power is in danger of being corroded. And I just

596
00:38:09,756 --> 00:38:12,876
Speaker 1: want to give you all the respect that I know

597
00:38:12,916 --> 00:38:15,716
Speaker 1: how to give for being someone who's willing to break

598
00:38:15,796 --> 00:38:21,316
Speaker 1: out of that and to provide detailed, analytic, scientific arguments

599
00:38:21,956 --> 00:38:24,836
Speaker 1: which I think are just tremendously important, and whether people

600
00:38:24,876 --> 00:38:26,716
Speaker 1: agree with them or whether they disagree with them, people

601
00:38:26,756 --> 00:38:29,636
Speaker 1: should engage them. And I think you made a huge

602
00:38:29,636 --> 00:38:33,596
Speaker 1: contribution to intellectual discourse around this very difficult set of

603
00:38:33,596 --> 00:38:35,916
Speaker 1: issues by doing that. So I just want, I really

604
00:38:35,916 --> 00:38:38,796
Speaker 1: want to say thank you for that. And I you

605
00:38:38,796 --> 00:38:40,236
Speaker 1: know what, I could talk to you all day about this,

606
00:38:40,236 --> 00:38:43,956
Speaker 1: and maybe in the future, when you're out from book publicity,

607
00:38:43,956 --> 00:38:46,356
Speaker 1: we come back and we'll have a more relaxed and

608
00:38:46,436 --> 00:38:49,156
Speaker 1: lengthy conversation about associated issues too. It's just great to

609
00:38:49,156 --> 00:38:51,436
Speaker 1: have you here. Thank you, Thank you so much for

610
00:38:51,476 --> 00:38:54,316
Speaker 1: reading the book and taking the arguments seriously. That's all

611
00:38:54,356 --> 00:38:56,716
Speaker 1: I ask. I really appreciate it. I can't tell you

612
00:38:57,036 --> 00:38:59,996
Speaker 1: how much I appreciate it, particularly in this moment, So

613
00:39:00,156 --> 00:39:09,516
Speaker 1: thank you so much. When I read a book that

614
00:39:09,796 --> 00:39:13,956
Speaker 1: really gets me thinking, I am always incredibly excited if

615
00:39:13,996 --> 00:39:16,996
Speaker 1: I get the chance to talk to the author, And

616
00:39:17,076 --> 00:39:20,036
Speaker 1: in fact, for me, one of the great pleasures of

617
00:39:20,636 --> 00:39:23,876
Speaker 1: deep background is that I have an excuse to call

618
00:39:23,956 --> 00:39:26,716
Speaker 1: up the authors of new books and say, pardon me,

619
00:39:26,796 --> 00:39:28,636
Speaker 1: would you be willing to have a conversation with me

620
00:39:28,676 --> 00:39:32,196
Speaker 1: about this thing you've written. My interview with doctor Carl

621
00:39:32,236 --> 00:39:35,796
Speaker 1: Hart fit that bill for me. His book Drug Use

622
00:39:35,836 --> 00:39:39,596
Speaker 1: for Grown Ups is a book that basically demands that

623
00:39:39,716 --> 00:39:43,396
Speaker 1: you think anew about something that you thought you understood before.

624
00:39:44,476 --> 00:39:48,036
Speaker 1: Not every argument in the book necessarily will convince every reader,

625
00:39:48,196 --> 00:39:50,436
Speaker 1: and I don't think that every argument in the book

626
00:39:50,556 --> 00:39:55,196
Speaker 1: necessarily convinced me. But what the book did is the

627
00:39:55,196 --> 00:39:58,436
Speaker 1: thing that I feel. Nonfiction books often do it. They're

628
00:39:58,436 --> 00:40:05,116
Speaker 1: most powerful upset my fixed expectations, change my ideas, and

629
00:40:05,196 --> 00:40:08,276
Speaker 1: the book does so by drawing attention to two different

630
00:40:08,316 --> 00:40:13,236
Speaker 1: dimensions of our One is an argument about power in

631
00:40:13,276 --> 00:40:16,996
Speaker 1: the world and about the effects of our drug policies

632
00:40:17,396 --> 00:40:21,916
Speaker 1: on ordinary people, especially people of color and people who

633
00:40:21,996 --> 00:40:25,596
Speaker 1: have less money. The other is to make us reconsider

634
00:40:25,876 --> 00:40:29,836
Speaker 1: what we take to be scientific evidence of propositions that

635
00:40:29,916 --> 00:40:33,436
Speaker 1: seem to have common sense weight and value, and it

636
00:40:33,516 --> 00:40:37,236
Speaker 1: requires us to ask ourselves whether the science supports what

637
00:40:37,316 --> 00:40:41,716
Speaker 1: the public discourse entails. Through that, we can then ask

638
00:40:41,756 --> 00:40:44,556
Speaker 1: ourselves whether the discourse that we've been hearing all of

639
00:40:44,596 --> 00:40:49,556
Speaker 1: our lives around drugs is accurate or not. The point

640
00:40:49,556 --> 00:40:53,076
Speaker 1: of intellectual work that makes us question all of our assumptions.

641
00:40:53,516 --> 00:40:56,276
Speaker 1: Isn't that every time we read something like that, we

642
00:40:56,396 --> 00:40:59,596
Speaker 1: throw away everything we thought we knew. That's not how

643
00:40:59,636 --> 00:41:02,356
Speaker 1: the brain works, and it's not how the brain should work.

644
00:41:02,956 --> 00:41:05,556
Speaker 1: We always need to build on what we've learned, We

645
00:41:05,596 --> 00:41:08,396
Speaker 1: always need to update what we know in light of

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00:41:08,476 --> 00:41:13,076
Speaker 1: new data and new information. What's most exciting for me, however,

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00:41:13,836 --> 00:41:16,956
Speaker 1: is that by challenging what we think, we know we

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00:41:17,036 --> 00:41:21,276
Speaker 1: have a chance, just a chance to start afresh, and

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00:41:21,356 --> 00:41:24,836
Speaker 1: without fresh starts, we never change the world around us.

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00:41:25,076 --> 00:41:28,476
Speaker 1: There's nothing more thrilling for me than seeing things differently

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00:41:29,116 --> 00:41:32,236
Speaker 1: and in the real world. There's nothing that gives us

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00:41:32,276 --> 00:41:36,996
Speaker 1: greater reason for possibility of change and optimism than taking

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00:41:36,996 --> 00:41:40,716
Speaker 1: on board ideas that, if followed, would change the way

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00:41:41,116 --> 00:41:44,596
Speaker 1: power is configured in our society and change the way

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00:41:44,956 --> 00:41:48,876
Speaker 1: the world really operates. I look very much forward to

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00:41:48,916 --> 00:41:52,156
Speaker 1: hearing how all of you think about Doctor Hart's interview

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00:41:52,276 --> 00:41:55,436
Speaker 1: and his book, And until the next time I speak

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00:41:55,436 --> 00:42:00,196
Speaker 1: to you, be careful, be safe, and be well. Deep

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00:42:00,196 --> 00:42:03,596
Speaker 1: background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer

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00:42:03,716 --> 00:42:06,876
Speaker 1: is mo La Board, our engineer is Martin Gonzales, and

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00:42:06,956 --> 00:42:10,796
Speaker 1: our shore runner is Sophie Crane mckibbon. Editorial support from

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00:42:10,796 --> 00:42:15,076
Speaker 1: noahm Osband. Theme music by Luis Gera at Pushkin. Thanks

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00:42:15,076 --> 00:42:18,796
Speaker 1: to Mia Lobell, Julia Barton, Lydia Jean Cott, Heather Faine,

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00:42:19,076 --> 00:42:23,556
Speaker 1: Carle Binggliori, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weisberg. You

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00:42:23,596 --> 00:42:26,236
Speaker 1: can find me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. I

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00:42:26,316 --> 00:42:28,716
Speaker 1: also write a column for Bloomberg opinion, which you can

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00:42:28,756 --> 00:42:32,876
Speaker 1: find at bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's

668
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Speaker 1: original slate of podcasts, go to bloomberg dot com slash

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Speaker 1: podcasts and if you liked what you heard today, please

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Speaker 1: write a review or tell a friend. This is deep

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Speaker 1: background