Speaker 1: What happens when we try to push that beach ball
Speaker 1: of anxiety underwater is that it's going to pop up later,
Speaker 1: and probably with more force than before. Welcome to the
Speaker 1: one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the
Speaker 1: importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in,
Speaker 1: garbage out, or you are what you think ring true,
Speaker 1: and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen
Speaker 1: or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy,
Speaker 1: or fear. We see what we don't have instead of
Speaker 1: what we do. We think things that hold us back
Speaker 1: and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking
Speaker 1: our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort
Speaker 1: to make a life worth living. This podcast is about
Speaker 1: how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction,
Speaker 1: how they feed their good Wolfe thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1: Our guest on this episode is Dr Ellen Hendrickson, a
Speaker 1: clinical psychologist who helps millions call their anxiety and be
Speaker 1: their authentic selves through her award winning podcast, The Savvy
Speaker 1: Psychologist and in the clinic at Boston University's Center for
Speaker 1: Anxiety and Related Disorders. Her debut book is How to
Speaker 1: be Yourself Quiet, your Inner Critic, and Rise Above Social Anxiety.
Speaker 1: Hi Ellen, welcome to the show. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for having me Eric. I'm really excited to talk with you.
Speaker 1: Your book is called How to Be Yourself, Quiet, Your
Speaker 1: Inner Critic, and Rise Above Social Anxiety, And I know
Speaker 1: this is something that a lot of our listeners deal
Speaker 1: with and are going to be really happy to hear about.
Speaker 1: So we'll get into the book in a second, but
Speaker 1: let's start like we always do, with the parable. There's
Speaker 1: a grandfather who's talking with his granddaughter and he says,
Speaker 1: in life, there are two wolves inside of us that
Speaker 1: are always a battle. One is a good wolf, which
Speaker 1: represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the
Speaker 1: other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed
Speaker 1: and hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops and she
Speaker 1: thinks about it for a second, and she looks up
Speaker 1: at her grandfather. She says, well, grandfather, which one wins?
Speaker 1: And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to start off by asking you what that parable
Speaker 1: means to you in your life and in the work
Speaker 1: that you do. Absolutely so, So, since we are here
Speaker 1: to talk about social anxiety and how to rise above
Speaker 1: it overcome it. We might assume that social anxiety is
Speaker 1: the bad wolf, and it's you know, it's it's certainly
Speaker 1: not like greed or or hatred. It's definitely not in
Speaker 1: that camp. But you know, it holds a lot of
Speaker 1: people back, It keeps a lot of people from living
Speaker 1: if they want to live. But I will argue that
Speaker 1: actually it's not all bad for two reasons. So one
Speaker 1: is that social anxiety often comes bundled with some really
Speaker 1: wonderful strengths. So I'm going to start out on a
Speaker 1: positive note here for all our listeners with social anxiety,
Speaker 1: because because folks and social anxiety often have things like
Speaker 1: high standards deep empathy, they are pro social, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, simply means helpful and altruistic. Uh, They're often
Speaker 1: good listeners, often very conscientious, you know, work hard to
Speaker 1: get along with people, which is ever more important in
Speaker 1: this increasingly diverse world. And the best part is that
Speaker 1: all those wonderful things don't go away even as we
Speaker 1: work on our social anxiety and and IT lessons. So
Speaker 1: that's one thing. But secondly, a little bit of social
Speaker 1: anxiety actually serves a really useful function like a little
Speaker 1: bit of insecurity is part of the human condition, and
Speaker 1: I would argue is necessary because a little bit of
Speaker 1: self doubt, a little bit of social anxiety helps us
Speaker 1: monitor ourselves and monitor our behavior and is really I
Speaker 1: think necessary to spark introspection which makes us want to
Speaker 1: grow and stretch and change. And I always like to
Speaker 1: say we doubt ourselves in order to check ourselves. And
Speaker 1: there's some really fascinating research out there that the opposite
Speaker 1: of social anxiety is not confidence as we think it
Speaker 1: might be, but it's actually psychopathy. It's been a psychopath
Speaker 1: which is characterized, you know, by a disregard for others,
Speaker 1: being really ruthless, reckless, irresponsible, having a real lack of empathy.
Speaker 1: So so I would say to our listeners with social anxiety,
Speaker 1: you know, so you know, it's certainly fine to put
Speaker 1: the social anxiety wolf on a diet, and we can
Speaker 1: talk about how to do that, but don't starve it completely,
Speaker 1: because a little bit of it is necessary and keeps
Speaker 1: you human wonderful. That's a great perspective to start things
Speaker 1: off with. So let's talk for a minute about what
Speaker 1: is happening in the brains of people who have social
Speaker 1: anxiety versus the people that aren't. There's some really clear
Speaker 1: things that we're able to see and notice about people
Speaker 1: who have social anxiety. Yeah, no, I'm we're gonna jump
Speaker 1: right into the neuroscience. Okay, So yeah, so it's it's interesting.
Speaker 1: So the architecture of the brains of people with social
Speaker 1: anxiety versus people without social anxieties all the same, you know,
Speaker 1: all the all the same parts are are there. But
Speaker 1: my analogy is that when there's a perceived social threat,
Speaker 1: you know whether or not that's actually a social threat.
Speaker 1: When there's a threat, the brains of folks without social
Speaker 1: anxiety will send a fire truck to the scene right away.
Speaker 1: And with the folks with social anxiety, our brain sends
Speaker 1: a guy on a bicycle with a bucket of water.
Speaker 1: It's a slower response, and it's it's just it's not
Speaker 1: it's not as robust a response. And so there is
Speaker 1: all this room left over to to jump to the
Speaker 1: worst case scenario or to uh to to kind of
Speaker 1: freak out because our friend has not texted our us back,
Speaker 1: and we assume it's because they hate us. And so
Speaker 1: for somebody without social anxiety, their brain will kick in
Speaker 1: and say, well, you know, she's probably just busy, maybe
Speaker 1: she's in the bathroom, maybe her phone died. Whereas with
Speaker 1: the folks with social anxiety, that that prefrontal cortex response,
Speaker 1: that response of the you know, the part of our
Speaker 1: brain that uh is reasonable and logical, doesn't kick in
Speaker 1: right away. There's a like about a three second leg
Speaker 1: and in those three seconds a lot of freaking out
Speaker 1: can happen. And so the good news is that there
Speaker 1: are things that can change this speed and intensity of response,
Speaker 1: and kind of behavioral therapy is one of those. We
Speaker 1: can talk about that. But the my point is that
Speaker 1: as you practice, and as you grow and stretch and
Speaker 1: try to change and really face your fear is a
Speaker 1: little at a time, you can change your brain and
Speaker 1: make it look much more like the folks without social anxiety.
Speaker 1: And would it be safe to say that this brain
Speaker 1: pattern is common across all types of anxiety. That's a
Speaker 1: great question. I don't know if that is the case.
Speaker 1: So basically what happens in anxiety is, yes, the amygdala
Speaker 1: sounds the alarm. Now, so the amigolla is is part
Speaker 1: of the fear system. It's not the fear center per se,
Speaker 1: but it's part of the fear system. UM, it's also
Speaker 1: a member of many other systems. It's a kind of
Speaker 1: a jack of all trades, but it is particularly uh
Speaker 1: prominent in anxiety. And then the prefrontal cortex will will
Speaker 1: talk it down and we'll talk it off the ledge. So,
Speaker 1: like I said, in social anxiety, that that response takes
Speaker 1: longer and the response is less robust. I honestly don't
Speaker 1: know if that is the case in other forms of anxiety,
Speaker 1: like say O c D or generalized anxiety or phobias.
Speaker 1: I don't know if science knows that. Personally, I am
Speaker 1: not sure. And so one of the things that you
Speaker 1: say is the biggest challenge with social anxiety, and and
Speaker 1: frankly this is kind of with a lot of types
Speaker 1: of anxiety is avoidance. So talk to me about what
Speaker 1: avoidance is and why is it so harmful. Yes, I'm
Speaker 1: so glad you brought that up. Avoidance absolutely drives social anxiety.
Speaker 1: This is the big if we if we are feeding
Speaker 1: a wolf, avoidance is its favorite food. And so there
Speaker 1: are two types of avoidance in social anxiety. One is
Speaker 1: overt avoidance, and that's when we don't show up to
Speaker 1: the party or we don't raise our hand in class.
Speaker 1: It's it's refusing to do the thing. Now, there's also
Speaker 1: covert avoidance, which is showing up to the party but
Speaker 1: perhaps only talking to the person we came with, or
Speaker 1: scrolling through our phone so we don't have to make
Speaker 1: eye contact with anyone, or spending most of our time,
Speaker 1: you know, petting the host's cat. We might raise our
Speaker 1: hand in class, but then second guess ourselves, or we
Speaker 1: might rehearse the answer that we're going to give before
Speaker 1: we actually say it, and then after we say it
Speaker 1: kind of check it mentally to make sure we didn't
Speaker 1: sound stupid. So there's there's there's a lot. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of tricks that are our brains play to try
Speaker 1: to artificially tamp down the anxiety. But what happens when
Speaker 1: we avoid, when we try to push that beach ball
Speaker 1: of anxiety underwater, is that it's going to pop up later,
Speaker 1: and probably with more force than before you said it.
Speaker 1: Avoidance means well, but by protecting us from a situation,
Speaker 1: it inadvertently sends the message that we just can't cope
Speaker 1: with it exactly. So avoidance feeds anxiety, and and it
Speaker 1: feeds the two lies of anxiety, which are one that
Speaker 1: the worst case scenario is a foregone conclusion that if
Speaker 1: I raise my hand and answer this question in class,
Speaker 1: that I will inevitably get it wrong and everyone will
Speaker 1: look at me and maybe the professor will laugh or
Speaker 1: something something terribly humiliating will occur. And so by avoiding,
Speaker 1: we don't get the chance to learn through experience that
Speaker 1: that doesn't happen. Secondly, we don't get a chance to
Speaker 1: to learn that we can cope with things that that
Speaker 1: we can handle either more than we think or we
Speaker 1: can handle what you know, what naturally occurs when we
Speaker 1: answer that question class or when we go to the
Speaker 1: party or whatever it is that we're avoiding that with,
Speaker 1: you know, with some time and practice, Like we might
Speaker 1: be uncomfortable at first, but as we try, you know,
Speaker 1: as we kind of cher our way into the pool,
Speaker 1: you know, we don't have to do a cannonball into
Speaker 1: the deep end, but as we enter our endo, the well,
Speaker 1: we can we can handle this, We can do this.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about one of the major players in our
Speaker 1: social anxiety, which is the inner critic. Yes, tell me
Speaker 1: about what the inner critic is, and then let's go
Speaker 1: into how can we work with the inner critic In
Speaker 1: relation to social anxiety, we all have an inner critic
Speaker 1: like this, This is just hardwired. Nobody accept the psychopath
Speaker 1: like I mentioned before, is without an inner critic. And
Speaker 1: so in social anxiety, this this inner critic will tell
Speaker 1: us that we have a fatal flaw, that there was
Speaker 1: something that is wrong with us, and that if we
Speaker 1: don't work very hard to conceal it, it will be
Speaker 1: revealed and people will judge or reject us for it.
Speaker 1: And this inner critic usually chooses a trait from one
Speaker 1: of four buckets. So that first bucket is appearance, and
Speaker 1: so our inner critic might say you're too fat, or
Speaker 1: you're ugly, or your hair is weird or something to
Speaker 1: that extent. The second bucket that our inner critic likes
Speaker 1: to kind of dip into is the signs of anxiety themselves.
Speaker 1: So our inner critic might say, well, you're better, you
Speaker 1: better hide, or people will see that you're blushing and
Speaker 1: they'll think you're an anxious freak. Or they'll see that
Speaker 1: you're sweating through your shirt, or that your voice is
Speaker 1: trembling as you speak, or that your hands are shaking.
Speaker 1: That the signs of anxiety themselves will give you away
Speaker 1: and people will judge you. The third bucket our social skills.
Speaker 1: So the inner critic will say, you know, you're boring,
Speaker 1: nobody wants to listen to this story, you have no
Speaker 1: sense of humor, you have no personality. It will be
Speaker 1: very critical of of one's attempt to connect with others.
Speaker 1: And the last bucket is the biggest bucket, and it's
Speaker 1: where the inner critic criticizes one's kind of entire personality.
Speaker 1: So you're stupid, or you're incompetent, or nobody wants you
Speaker 1: here does You're you're a loser, And so in one
Speaker 1: of those four buckets, uh, the the inner critic will,
Speaker 1: you know, choose one of these and will will let
Speaker 1: you know it. And the bucket they dip into can change,
Speaker 1: you know, over time, over the lifespan from situation to situation,
Speaker 1: or maybe it'll whisper more than one thing at you.
Speaker 1: But but what, whatever it is, it feels like God's
Speaker 1: honest truth. It feels like self consciousness on steroids. And
Speaker 1: an analogy I like to use is for folks who
Speaker 1: don't have social anxiety, is that it's it's as if
Speaker 1: like we've all had days where we look in the
Speaker 1: mirror and there's just something off like we you know,
Speaker 1: are we're having a really bad hair day, or like
Speaker 1: suddenly we have a really big ZiT or something to
Speaker 1: that extent, And if we have to go out in
Speaker 1: public like that, we will feel self conscious and try
Speaker 1: to cover it. So maybe we'll you know, where a
Speaker 1: hat that day, or we'll, you know, try to cover
Speaker 1: that ZiT with some you know, some concealer or something
Speaker 1: like that. But if you can't, if you have to
Speaker 1: go out with your hair looking weird, orr this big
Speaker 1: ZiT um you you feel very self conscious. You feel
Speaker 1: like everybody is paying attention to it, and and that
Speaker 1: they'll they'll judge you we're noticed it and evaluate you negatively.
Speaker 1: So it's that same feeling that's the seed of the feeling,
Speaker 1: but but blown up to to like a whole another level.
Speaker 1: And rather than being about something external, it's usually about
Speaker 1: something internal, so something about personality or like just who
Speaker 1: who we are, how we conduct ourselves in the world, right,
Speaker 1: And I think those four buckets are so informative and
Speaker 1: they sort of by being able to sort of see
Speaker 1: what it is that we are are feeling anxious, about
Speaker 1: her that we're afraid about leads me into a tool
Speaker 1: that you talk about that you call social anxiety mad libs. So,
Speaker 1: so walk me through what this is, because it's one
Speaker 1: of the first steps in a really powerful tool that
Speaker 1: you talk about and is a cornerstone of cognitive behavioral therapy,
Speaker 1: which is replaced exactly. So social anxiety mad lives is
Speaker 1: essentially this sentence. So it's when and then fill in
Speaker 1: the blank here, just like in mad Lives, fill in
Speaker 1: a social situation that makes you feel anxious. So when
Speaker 1: I raise my hand in class, it will become obvious
Speaker 1: that I am blank, I am stupid, I am stuttering,
Speaker 1: I am turning red, whatever whatever it is. When I
Speaker 1: go out with my co workers, it will become obvious
Speaker 1: that they don't really want me here. If I ask
Speaker 1: someone out on a date, it will become obvious that
Speaker 1: I have no personality, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So you can
Speaker 1: you can fill have your inner critic fill in the blank,
Speaker 1: think about the things that you avoid and what what
Speaker 1: is your feared reveal? What are you afraid is going
Speaker 1: to be shown to the world, And that's that's what
Speaker 1: your critic is whispering to you for me. So I
Speaker 1: have a history of social anxiety myself, and you know,
Speaker 1: many decades and a PhD in clinical psychology later, I am.
Speaker 1: I'm doing much better. I am to the point where
Speaker 1: it does not own me. And I still get nervous
Speaker 1: about particular things, like, for instance, being um. Like if
Speaker 1: I'm around somebody in authority, I can I can get
Speaker 1: a little tongue tied and formal. I don't love being
Speaker 1: on camera. I can do it, but I don't not
Speaker 1: not a huge fan. Um. I can speak in public.
Speaker 1: I have to psych myself up beforehand, but I can
Speaker 1: do it anyway. And so my inner critic has kind
Speaker 1: of shifted throughout my life. When I was in college,
Speaker 1: it was if or when, when I show up at
Speaker 1: a social event, it will become obviously, I'm a big loser.
Speaker 1: When I was starting my career, it was when I
Speaker 1: hand in whatever work I am doing, it will become
Speaker 1: obviously I'm incompetent. When I was writing how to Be
Speaker 1: Yourself and I had to cold email intellectual luminaries who
Speaker 1: have studied social anxiety for their whole lives, it was
Speaker 1: when I email these people, it will become obvious that
Speaker 1: I am annoying. And I know enough now that I
Speaker 1: can put some space between my inner critics whisperings and
Speaker 1: and say like, Okay, inner critic, I know what you're
Speaker 1: trying to do. You're trying to help me, you're trying
Speaker 1: to keep me safe. I appreciate that, but really you're
Speaker 1: holding me back. And so again I thank you, and
Speaker 1: I'm going to go do this now because I know
Speaker 1: from experience, from from from not avoiding. You know over
Speaker 1: many many years, uh, that that the thing that you're
Speaker 1: trying to tell me is actually not true. So there's
Speaker 1: a big difference between I'm annoying, which sounds like a truth,
Speaker 1: and I'm having the thought that I'm annoying, which is
Speaker 1: just a thought and can be challenged. And so that
Speaker 1: brings us to the tool you mentioned, which is replaced. Yes,
Speaker 1: and it's such a powerful tool. I really love the
Speaker 1: way that you go into it. And before we go
Speaker 1: too far into it, I want to stress what what
Speaker 1: replace isn't And um, you're saying that replacing is not
Speaker 1: about thinking positive or positive thinking or positive affirmations. You say,
Speaker 1: those don't get you very far in the courtroom of
Speaker 1: your brain, right exactly. So replace is not simply taking.
Speaker 1: So we'll take my last example of I'm annoying, and
Speaker 1: it's not simply saying like no, I'm awesome, like it's
Speaker 1: it's not, it's not. It's not just like having a cheerleader,
Speaker 1: you know, stand on the opposite shoulder, you know, of
Speaker 1: your inner critic and say like no, like go girl,
Speaker 1: you can do it. It's that's it's not. It's not
Speaker 1: that simple. We're not trying to look through rose colored
Speaker 1: glasses when we replace for trying to look through clear
Speaker 1: color a glasses. We're trying to look at this more
Speaker 1: accurately exactly. And so so what we can do is
Speaker 1: is ask some questions of the inner critic. And so
Speaker 1: one the first thing that it's very important to do
Speaker 1: is to specify. And so the anxiety is all all anxiety,
Speaker 1: particularly social anxiety, is vague. So anxiety will tell us
Speaker 1: something bad will happen, or everybody will hate me, and
Speaker 1: those are so vague, what what particular bad thing will happen?
Speaker 1: Or who is this? Everybody name names, and so we
Speaker 1: need to to reduce and specify and pinpoint what exactly
Speaker 1: it is we are afraid of. Because if we can
Speaker 1: whittle down something bad will happen to you know, my
Speaker 1: shoes will click clack on the floor to lully, and
Speaker 1: everybody will turn and look to see who that is.
Speaker 1: Then that becomes much easier to to logic with. So
Speaker 1: they look at me, that's how how bad is that is? That?
Speaker 1: That I can handle that as opposed to something bad
Speaker 1: will happen where everybody will hate me. We can whittle
Speaker 1: that down too. I will go to a party and
Speaker 1: try to make conversation and the person I talked to
Speaker 1: will give me a weird look and say he has
Speaker 1: to go refill his drink. Now, you know, that's there
Speaker 1: are very a lot of different reasons for that. Maybe
Speaker 1: he's maybe he's hungry, maybe he's in a bad mood,
Speaker 1: maybe he's kind of a jerk. And so if we
Speaker 1: specify what exactly it is we are afraid of, what
Speaker 1: our feared outcome is, then it becomes much easier to
Speaker 1: logic our way out of. So that's one to specify. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's such a powerful tool to go away from that
Speaker 1: that sort of vague, m amorphous fears that we have
Speaker 1: and sort of boil them down to all right, here's
Speaker 1: what the actual thing is even just that alone can
Speaker 1: be so powerful. And then from there you recommend three
Speaker 1: magic question and sure, so so the magic questions? Want
Speaker 1: you specified? Are you know, what's the worst that can happen? Like? What? What?
Speaker 1: What am I really afraid of? Let's let's push this
Speaker 1: to to its limit. And and so when when we
Speaker 1: think about like, okay, like what what what is the
Speaker 1: worst that can happen? So let's let's say we are
Speaker 1: going to a job interview, So what's the worst that
Speaker 1: can happen? Yeah, I don't I don't get the job?
Speaker 1: How And then the next question, how how bad is that? Well?
Speaker 1: I guess you know, if I really want this job,
Speaker 1: that would that would be disappointed? I you know, I've
Speaker 1: I've worked hard, I've prepared. I would really like this job.
Speaker 1: But if I don't get it, I can look for
Speaker 1: another job. Um. So so really think about, like, what's
Speaker 1: what's the worst case scenario? Sometimes we realize that the
Speaker 1: worst case scenario would never actually occur, which makes it
Speaker 1: very easy to logic with. So for example, we might
Speaker 1: think in a I don't know, crowded cafeteria, we we
Speaker 1: we asked, oh is this is this taken? The worst
Speaker 1: case scenario, the person stands up and stop at us
Speaker 1: and says, yes, this seat has taken, what are you doing?
Speaker 1: Go away? Nobody wants to hear that's never gonna happen,
Speaker 1: So that that's often the things that that our brain
Speaker 1: comes up with. Once, once we either write them down
Speaker 1: or say them out loud, we realize, what whoa my
Speaker 1: brain is is going a little hay wire here and
Speaker 1: in this universe that would never occur. So it can
Speaker 1: be very helpful to to think about, like, what what
Speaker 1: does my brain think is the worst case scenario? Uh?
Speaker 1: And then and then we can ask to go with
Speaker 1: that same example, what are the odds? What are the
Speaker 1: what are the odds that will actually occur? Because again
Speaker 1: our inner critic and our social anxiety tells us that
Speaker 1: terrible things are a foregone conclusion, when actually most people
Speaker 1: are nice, most people are helpful. It's really hard to
Speaker 1: hate up close. If you're talking to an individual person,
Speaker 1: it's the chances that they will be rude to you
Speaker 1: are actually quite low. So what are the odds is
Speaker 1: another question you can ask yourself. And then the third
Speaker 1: is would I cope? What would I do if the
Speaker 1: worst case scenario or or even the most likely case
Speaker 1: scenario comes to pass, How how can I deal with that?
Speaker 1: What can I do? What resources can I gather? Is
Speaker 1: if something were to occur that were to rattle you,
Speaker 1: could you call a friend and and talk it out.
Speaker 1: Could you take care of yourself and maybe just take
Speaker 1: a few deep breaths or or next chance you get
Speaker 1: go to a yoga class. Can like what can you
Speaker 1: do to take care of yourself if something uh, you know,
Speaker 1: untoward or to happen, so to to realize how bad
Speaker 1: could this be? What are the odds? And how would
Speaker 1: I cope? So those are the three questions you can
Speaker 1: ask yourself to kind of psych yourself up to go
Speaker 1: into the situations very slowly, again at your own pace
Speaker 1: that you fear. Yeah, those are such great tools in
Speaker 1: such a really practical way of having some very specific
Speaker 1: questions that we can ask ourselves and you know, the
Speaker 1: very process of getting very specific. So much of this
Speaker 1: stuff it's not about positive thinking. It's about not not
Speaker 1: about rose colored glasses, but it's about precision in our
Speaker 1: thinking and really trying to sort of, you know, pull
Speaker 1: things out of the closet and and look at them.
Speaker 1: You know, a little bit more closely and from a
Speaker 1: few different angles. And when we do that, it usually
Speaker 1: shrinks things down to some degree. Absolutely yes, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're you're absolutely right. So it's it's taking these thoughts
Speaker 1: that are often very automatic, or you know, our our
Speaker 1: inner critic sometimes just becomes a habit, and we avoid
Speaker 1: things just because we always have. But if we stop
Speaker 1: and really shine a bright light on what it is
Speaker 1: we're afraid of, we might realize either wait a minute,
Speaker 1: that's that's unlikely, that's illogical, or I could probably handle that.
Speaker 1: So let me go and try that and see what happens.
Speaker 1: Let me do a little experiment and see what occurs.
Speaker 1: And so and any of those things will get us
Speaker 1: will start to get us unstuck and and rolling our way. Ye.
Speaker 1: So let's move to another major tool, which is embrace.
Speaker 1: So step one is we're replacing. Step two is embracing.
Speaker 1: So what are we doing in the embraced step? Sure,
Speaker 1: So with embrace, this is code word for acceptance, which
Speaker 1: is also code for for mindfulness. And so I talked
Speaker 1: a little bit about this before without really labeling it
Speaker 1: as such, in terms of the difference between just taking
Speaker 1: the thought as truth and taking it as a thought,
Speaker 1: and so to to get some space and realize that
Speaker 1: all the things are inner critic it was whispering to us,
Speaker 1: are just are just thoughts, that's all it is. And
Speaker 1: that we don't have to follow the inner critics directions
Speaker 1: or even follow its advice is actually quite lousy. It's
Speaker 1: keeping us from, you know, living the life we want
Speaker 1: to live. It's probably holding us back. And and so
Speaker 1: some some mindfulness, uh, and just realizing like, Okay, I
Speaker 1: might feel like this social anxiety is a ball and chain.
Speaker 1: I might feel like it is really shackling me and
Speaker 1: hold me back. But in reality, what I can do
Speaker 1: with embrace and mindfulness is to pick up that ball
Speaker 1: and carry it with me. The ball is still going
Speaker 1: to be there, the inner critics still going to be there,
Speaker 1: the thoughts will still come, but rather than reacting to
Speaker 1: the thoughts, I can choose how to respond to the thoughts,
Speaker 1: and in that is is a whole world of difference.
Speaker 1: So there's a lovely study on mindfulness and social anxiety
Speaker 1: by two Canadian researchers, Dr Stephanie Casson and Dr Neil Rector,
Speaker 1: And so they trained about sixty people with diagnosable. So
Speaker 1: what I call capital s social anxiety for just ten
Speaker 1: minutes in either mindfulness distraction, which is paying attention to
Speaker 1: something that is not the task at hand, and the
Speaker 1: third group got trained in in nothing at all. So
Speaker 1: there are three conditions, mindfulness distraction and that a pure
Speaker 1: control condition. So in the mindfulness condition, they were taught
Speaker 1: focused on their breath to bring their attention back when
Speaker 1: it wandered, to be aware of their thoughts and feelings,
Speaker 1: and accept their experience in the present moment. So after
Speaker 1: this you know, little ten minute training, these sixty people
Speaker 1: with social anxiety were asked to remember a really humiliating,
Speaker 1: awkward or anxiety provoking experience like a date gone horribly wrong,
Speaker 1: or a presentation that flopped, or like something super awkward
Speaker 1: they did at a party. And so they were asked
Speaker 1: to bring some memory to mind as vividly as possible,
Speaker 1: like really get in there and wallow around in their
Speaker 1: embarrassment and their anxiety for five minutes, and then they
Speaker 1: rated how upset they were about that. Okay, then for
Speaker 1: the next five minutes they were asked to apply what
Speaker 1: they had just learned mindfulness distraction, which was basically trying
Speaker 1: not to think about it or just to wait it out.
Speaker 1: And then they were asked to rate how upset they
Speaker 1: were again, and so of course, which you know which
Speaker 1: group one out? So the mindfulness group want out because
Speaker 1: and so they're they're just us went down steadily and
Speaker 1: significantly over those five minutes. In distraction it didn't go
Speaker 1: down at all, and in the weighted out group it
Speaker 1: actually went up. And so this was after just ten
Speaker 1: minutes of training, which I think is remarkable. And so
Speaker 1: it really speaks to how simply being aware that like this,
Speaker 1: this is the thought I'm having, and that's okay. I
Speaker 1: can accept my thoughts and feelings in the is a
Speaker 1: present in the present moment I realize it's it's just
Speaker 1: a thought can be so helpful in reducing that that
Speaker 1: distress that goes along with social anxiety. Yeah, it is
Speaker 1: so powerful to to actually be able to just experience
Speaker 1: what's actually happening in a more open and non judgmental way.
Speaker 1: M Y. The other part of embrace that you talk
Speaker 1: about that I think so important. You give an example
Speaker 1: of like how two different coaches might might help somebody
Speaker 1: in one is really yelling at them and the other
Speaker 1: is the other is being kind and and so a
Speaker 1: big part of embrace that you talked about is just
Speaker 1: this turning our inner environment into a hospitable place and
Speaker 1: the huge difference that makes if we just treat ourselves
Speaker 1: like we would a friend. I feel like that's one
Speaker 1: of the most fundamental shifts, if we can learn to
Speaker 1: make to consistently think about, all right, how am I
Speaker 1: talking to myself? What am I saying to myself? And
Speaker 1: what would I say to a friend? And can I
Speaker 1: just turn the tone back towards a kinder, more hospitable
Speaker 1: interior environment. Absolutely. Yeah. We can't heal in a punitive environment.
Speaker 1: You can't grow in a punitive environment. And so I've
Speaker 1: talked to a lot of people who say that their
Speaker 1: inner critic is a real jerk, you know, like really
Speaker 1: yells at them or tells them they're stupid or that
Speaker 1: they're an idiot, and they would never say that to
Speaker 1: a friend or somebody they love. And so trying to
Speaker 1: translate you know, the again, the inner critic means well,
Speaker 1: even if even as the inner critic is calling you
Speaker 1: an idiot, it's trying to help you, it's trying to
Speaker 1: keep you safe. But what we can do is to
Speaker 1: use what's you know, what is widely known as self
Speaker 1: compassion and to to talk to ourselves in a compassionate,
Speaker 1: more accepting day. And when we create that environment, then
Speaker 1: we can grow and change. We're not we're not letting
Speaker 1: ourselves off the hook. We're not giving in So a
Speaker 1: wonderful example I've heard from Dr Kristin Neff, who is
Speaker 1: a researcher at the University of Texas and has done
Speaker 1: a lot uh in the field of self compassion, is
Speaker 1: that she says, imagine, imagine a compassionate mother. That mother
Speaker 1: is not gonna say, go ahead and eat all the cookies,
Speaker 1: no problem. The compassionate mother will say, well, I know
Speaker 1: cookies are tempting. I totally get that you want to
Speaker 1: eat all these cookies, but maybe you can make a
Speaker 1: healthier choice. And so it doesn't it doesn't allow you
Speaker 1: to be indulgent. It doesn't let you off the hook
Speaker 1: and say like you don't have to go to the party,
Speaker 1: or you don't have to apply for that promotion, or
Speaker 1: you know, you don't you don't have to go hang
Speaker 1: out with your co workers. It doesn't allow you, but
Speaker 1: it says, you know, I know this is hard. It's
Speaker 1: really hard to go to a neighborhood barbecue where you
Speaker 1: only know a couple of people. It's really hard to
Speaker 1: go on to first date. It's really hard to put
Speaker 1: yourself out there. It's really hard to walk up to
Speaker 1: someone and start a conversation. And but you know what,
Speaker 1: you've done hard things before. I know you can do it.
Speaker 1: I know you can get through it. Give it a
Speaker 1: shot and see what happens. That's self compassion, and so
Speaker 1: for me, my my my inner critic actually is not
Speaker 1: a jerk. My inner critic is I like to say,
Speaker 1: a little old lady who clutches her pearls so she's
Speaker 1: easily scandalized and and says that's not appropriate. You can't
Speaker 1: do that, And so I will say to her, like,
Speaker 1: thank you. I appreciate what you're doing. And it is
Speaker 1: hard to reach out to intellectual luminaries to research your book.
Speaker 1: It is. It is hard to to do this, but
Speaker 1: you know it actually is appropriate. I think they might
Speaker 1: be flattered that that I'm asking them for their advice
Speaker 1: or their wisdom. And so let's give this a shot
Speaker 1: and see what happens. That makes the road so much
Speaker 1: smoother than saying Oh my gosh, this this is not appropriate.
Speaker 1: This can't this can't be so uh So I've I've
Speaker 1: found it's it's it's much easier to talk to yourself
Speaker 1: as that coach as opposed to the punitive coach, which
Speaker 1: is your unvarnished inner critic. Yes, I mean it really
Speaker 1: makes all the difference in the world. I mean it's
Speaker 1: a small change, it's also a huge change, but it
Speaker 1: is one of those things that's just so fundamental to
Speaker 1: to a better and happier life. So we're nearing the
Speaker 1: end of our time here, but let's talk about creating
Speaker 1: structure in our social situations. I found this to be
Speaker 1: a really powerful tool and a good alternative to, as
Speaker 1: you mentioned, spending all your time with the I love dogs,
Speaker 1: but if you put me in a party and there's
Speaker 1: a dog, it's a combination of me loving dogs and
Speaker 1: it being easier to pet and talk to a dog
Speaker 1: than a person. I'll go right for right. But I
Speaker 1: have found this trick of creating structure to be really
Speaker 1: helpful for me also, So I was wondering if you
Speaker 1: could share that with listeners. Oh it's so great. I
Speaker 1: used this the other day. So yeah, my um my
Speaker 1: my department at work had a spring reception, and so
Speaker 1: you know, and I know these people well enough now
Speaker 1: that that it was I was not, you know, fantasizing
Speaker 1: about jumping out the window, you know before I went.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I said, okay, well, let
Speaker 1: me go in with some structure. Let me give myself
Speaker 1: a mission to fulfill, give myself a role to play.
Speaker 1: And so this can be done formally. So for instance,
Speaker 1: like if you're a member of an organization like this
Speaker 1: well kept secret in in my opinion, is to take
Speaker 1: on a leadership role and that gives you a reason
Speaker 1: to talk to everybody, gives you a duty to fulfill.
Speaker 1: Or it can also be done informally like what I
Speaker 1: did at this reception, where you can go in and
Speaker 1: say like, all right, I'm going to talk to each person.
Speaker 1: I supervised, my boss and the receptionist, and after that
Speaker 1: I can go and to to just kind of give
Speaker 1: yourself a mental checklist of like what you're going to
Speaker 1: do or who you're going to talk to, and then
Speaker 1: after that you're done. You can do the same thing
Speaker 1: in terms of a goal, so like if you and
Speaker 1: your friends want to get together and make a goal
Speaker 1: to try every Mexican restaurant in town, or when you
Speaker 1: go to a birthday party, you can assign yourself the
Speaker 1: task of talking to, you know, two people you've never
Speaker 1: talked to before, or like if you're at a networking event,
Speaker 1: you can say, all right, I'm going to try to
Speaker 1: exchange three sets of business cards. Essentially, it gives you
Speaker 1: a purpose and it takes away the biggest driver of anxiety,
Speaker 1: which is uncertainty. And so I can I'll just I'll
Speaker 1: just close this this bit with there's a lovely study
Speaker 1: I like to talk about by doctors Simon Thompson and
Speaker 1: Ron Repay and so they they're Australian researchers who work
Speaker 1: with social anxiety. And so they did this lovely experiment
Speaker 1: which brought in women with social anxiety, so diagnosable social anxiety,
Speaker 1: and then women who are kind of the opposite, not
Speaker 1: not psychopaths, but but women who were kind of more
Speaker 1: confident and outgoing and could chat easily with with others.
Speaker 1: They were kind of at the top end of the
Speaker 1: extrovert socially confident spectrum. And one at a time they
Speaker 1: had each of these women come into a waiting room
Speaker 1: estensibly for the experiment, and little did they know that
Speaker 1: the experiment began as soon as they walked through the door.
Speaker 1: So they sat down and a male research assistant who
Speaker 1: they thought was also a participant came in, sat down
Speaker 1: next to them and said, I hope we don't have
Speaker 1: to wait too long. And every thirty seconds for five minutes,
Speaker 1: if the conversation had lulled, he would give another prompt
Speaker 1: so he would say like, oh, nice weather we're having
Speaker 1: or something like that. And this one on for five
Speaker 1: minutes and was surreptitiously videotaped by the researchers. After five minutes,
Speaker 1: a researcher came in and said, oh, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming. I really appreciate you taking part in
Speaker 1: the study. Here's your task for the next five minutes.
Speaker 1: I'd like to pretend that you're at a party, and
Speaker 1: I'd like the two of you to get to know
Speaker 1: each other as well as you can in the next
Speaker 1: five minutes. Go. So now they had some structure, they
Speaker 1: had a mission and a goal. And when these two
Speaker 1: five minute periods, these videotapes were watched and compared and
Speaker 1: rated on social competence. When the raiders looked at those
Speaker 1: first five minutes with the women with social anxiety, they
Speaker 1: rated much lower than the women who are kind of
Speaker 1: more confidently jetty. But if we look at the second
Speaker 1: five minutes, they're the two groups social anxiety and you know,
Speaker 1: the opposite thereof we're almost neck and neck. The social
Speaker 1: anxiety group was a little bit behind, but not much,
Speaker 1: which is really impressive given that they were being compared
Speaker 1: to two people who you know, kind of do this naturally,
Speaker 1: who have never met a stranger. And so just a
Speaker 1: little bit of structure, kind of giving yourself a mission
Speaker 1: can magically take away that uncertainty. And it seems like
Speaker 1: it confers social skills, but really all it does is
Speaker 1: create a structure for you to kind of hang your
Speaker 1: conversation on, and that that is so helpful in so
Speaker 1: many situations. Yeah, there's another one that you mentioned in
Speaker 1: the book that I have used, which is if I
Speaker 1: go into a networking situation when I don't know anyone,
Speaker 1: I will often make it my goal to find somebody
Speaker 1: who looks more uncomfortable than me and and go talk,
Speaker 1: you know, go talk to that person and try and
Speaker 1: help them to feel better. It's a it's a tool
Speaker 1: that has helped me often when I you know, when
Speaker 1: I'm in a situation like that, because it does give
Speaker 1: me something to do. And also, you know, I've got
Speaker 1: a lot of experience. Um, my previous company was a
Speaker 1: solar energy company, and I was always networking, and so
Speaker 1: I also found it really helpful, like you said, to
Speaker 1: go in with a goal of like, all right, I
Speaker 1: want to find these five people, and I want to
Speaker 1: have a conversation with them. Like it just gave me
Speaker 1: a little bit more focus than just standing there being anxious. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: And the well kept secret is that pretty much everybody
Speaker 1: is waiting for somebody else to initiate, and when someone
Speaker 1: does an issue, they're so relieved, and so it's it's
Speaker 1: it takes the burden off of others when when we initiate,
Speaker 1: when we when we search out the person who might
Speaker 1: be kind of nervously scrolling through their phone or standing
Speaker 1: alone by the you know, punch bowl or the bar,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of sipping their drink and looking around.
Speaker 1: And when we find the people who look like they
Speaker 1: could use some help starting a conversation or would be
Speaker 1: relieved if we started the conversation, oftentimes they're they're very
Speaker 1: grateful and it leads to a wonderful connection. So so yes,
Speaker 1: I I wholeheartedly uh support your your technique there. Yes, well, Ellen,
Speaker 1: we are at the end of our time here. I've
Speaker 1: really enjoyed this conversation. I really enjoyed the book and
Speaker 1: I and I hope that these tools are useful to listeners.
Speaker 1: You and I are going to continue the conversation our
Speaker 1: post show conversation where listeners can get access to that
Speaker 1: by becoming supporters of the show. If you're interested, go
Speaker 1: to one you feed, dot net slash support, and we
Speaker 1: are going to talk about the five myths of social
Speaker 1: anxiety in the post show conversation. But thank you again, Ellen,
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed this. It was a delight to talk
Speaker 1: to you. Eric. Thank you so much for having me
Speaker 1: on the show. Okay bye. If what you just heard
Speaker 1: was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to
Speaker 1: the One You Feed podcast. Head over to one you feed,
Speaker 1: dot net slash support. The One you Feed podcast would
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