WEBVTT - #178 Wrongful Conviction: False Confessions - Tommy Ward Pt. 2 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.160 To our listeners. This episode is part two of the 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:07.120 story of Tommy Ward and Carl Fontineau. Two days before 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:10.039 we were scheduled to release this episode, Steve and I 0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:13.600 learned about breaking news in Tommy's case, and it's the 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:16.480 kind of news that reminds us why we do this work. 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:19.920 So we'll hear this episode as we originally recorded it, 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:23.560 but with a special update at the end. No spoilers, 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:26.400 but for Tommy and Carl, it's starting to look like 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:35.440 justice might not be just a dream after all. Welcome 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:37.240 to Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions. 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:39.760 I'm Laura and I writer and I'm Steve Drisen. 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.040 Today we bring you back to Ada, Oklahoma for the 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:46.279 second half of our story about Tommy Ward and Carl Fontineau. 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:49.279 When we left off last week, Tommy and Carl were 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:53.000 sitting on death row after police turned Tommy's bad dream 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:56.320 into a murder confession. This week, we'll tell you about 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:59.360 some serious twists in the case, from the discovery of 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:03.440 the victims to the revelation of hidden evidence that turned 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:06.800 this case upside down. We'll update you on everything that's 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:09.960 happened since the twenty eighteen Netflix series The Innocent Man 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:13.360 told Tommy and Carl's story. There's been some very good 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:15.679 news for one of them and a lot of hope 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:16.280 for the other. 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:29.440 Steve. 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:32.119 For those listeners who missed last week's episode, let's tell 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:33.280 them what happened. 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:37.360 In Ada, Oklahoma. Denise Haroway, a twenty four year old woman, 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:42.280 goes missing. She vanishes the please bring Tommy Ward in 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:43.880 for questioning, and. 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:46.640 It got ugly fast. Tommy told the police about this 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:50.600 nightmare he'd had about Denise's disappearance, and over a nine 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:55.440 hour interrogation, police turned that dream into a confession. They 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.600 even hauled in Tommy's friend, Carl Fontano and got him 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:01.680 to confess too. But here's the thing. These confessions were 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:04.880 riddled with errors. They named a third perpetrator who had 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:08.440 a rock solid alibi. They repeated the stories that police 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:11.639 fed to Tommy and Carl without adding anything new. These 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:14.320 confessions were obviously obviously false. 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:19.360 Now going into trial, the prosecutors have two confessions that 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:23.040 are at odds with the objectively noble facts of the crime. 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:25.520 But they thought they had an ace in the hole, and. 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:29.280 That ace in the hole was a single fact that 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:34.320 both Tommy and Carl had told to police. Officers a 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:39.480 description of a blouse that Denise Harrowy was wearing at 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:43.080 the time that she was abducted. A blouse that it 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:48.960 turned out was missing from Denise's wardrobe, A blouse which 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:52.480 even the police did not know about at the time 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:54.960 they interviewed Tommy and Carl. 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:57.919 But based on this one detail in their confessions, Tommy 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:01.079 and Carl were convicted of murder. And remember her bodies 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:03.079 still hadn't been found when they were convicted. 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:08.480 No body, no bones, no motive, nothing but a description 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:12.919 of Denise Harroway's blouse, and they are on death row 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:17.000 because of that. That's where we pick up the story. 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:23.679 Three months after Tommy and Carl were convicted, a wake 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:25.760 up call arrived in the case that was built on 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:29.720 a dream. On January twenty first, nineteen eighty six, a 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:33.080 man was walking through a field in Gurdy, Oklahoma, when 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:36.839 he found a skull under some brush. Police found more 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.760 human remains spread across the field, and dental records confirmed 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:46.920 a match. Finally, they'd found Denise Harroway. This discovery produced 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:49.640 a new round of problems with Tommy and Carl's confessions. 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:53.880 Denise had been found unclothed, twenty miles away from where 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:56.760 Tommy and Carl had said they'd left her. Her body 0:03:56.880 --> 0:03:59.600 hadn't been burned at all, despite the fact that Carl 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:02.360 had said they'd set her on fire, and the medical 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:06.360 examiner confirmed even though Tommy and Carl had said Denise 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.920 had been stabbed that never happened. She had actually been 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:11.160 shot in the head. 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:16.599 It's like they're describing completely different crimes from what happened 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:17.680 to Denise Harroway. 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.960 Both Tommy and Carl's convictions were reversed on appeal, but 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.520 not because Denise's body had been found. It was because 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:29.360 the judge ruled they shouldn't have been tried together. Prosecutors 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:32.440 went ahead and tried both Tommy and Carl again, this 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:35.839 time separately but using the same evidence as before. 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:38.760 When the second trial come up before they had found 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:42.880 her remains and everything they found that crime scene had 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:44.839 proved Tommy's confession wrong. 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:46.320 Nothing was right about it. 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:50.400 That's Tommy Ward's brother, Melvin. He's been advocating for Tommy's 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:52.360 innocence for over thirty years. 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:54.520 Our hearts was a high I mean, how can you 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.680 ignore you know that she was shot back of the head, 0:04:57.760 --> 0:04:59.800 and here you got two boys saying it was she was. 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:05.040 She was never sad, even in corners before stites at But. 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:07.760 Believe it or not, the second trials were deja vu 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:11.520 all over again, Just like before. The prosecutors relied on 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:14.760 the fact that Tommy and Carl had both said Denise 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:18.760 was wearing a blue flowered, ruffled blouse. The police hadn't 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:22.039 known anything about the blouse before the interrogation. The prosecutors 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:24.559 insisted that fact couldn't have been fed. 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:28.080 Imagine you're a prosecutor and you have to stand up 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:31.200 in front of a jury and present them with a confession. 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:35.640 They can't tell you what happened to Denise, who did it, 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:41.239 or even where the crime occurred. That's what these prosecutors 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:44.680 had to do. But they did it well enough, well 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:49.120 enough to convict both Tommy and Carl a second time. 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:52.880 When Tommy heard the verdict, he began to sob uncontrollably. 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:56.920 You're all liars, he shouted at the prosecutors. I'm being 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:58.880 punished for something I didn't do. 0:05:59.600 --> 0:05:59.920 I don't know. 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:03.720 I still have a hard time. I actually thought it 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.200 would be a hung jury the second one. Confessions are 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:09.920 hard to get by. You know, people still believe that, 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:12.080 you know, why did you confess if you didn't do it? 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:17.159 So their confessions were similar, but they also was off. 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:21.640 You know, I'm not a lawyer by any means, but 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:26.640 I could not see how twelve adult jurors could just 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.160 ignore all the other evidence. And that's what they did. 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:31.040 Had to have. 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.640 Tommy was totally convicted on this confession. Them confessions sunk 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:37.120 them this time around. 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:40.799 Tommy Ward and Carl Fontano were ultimately sentenced to life 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:41.320 in prison. 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:46.200 That's been thirty five years ago plus thirty five years later. 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:47.640 I'm just still waiting to get out. 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:50.800 Tommy and Carl went off to prison to serve their 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:54.960 life sentences years past, and their appeals were denied one 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:55.720 after another. 0:06:56.120 --> 0:07:01.120 Tommy was a kid that he'd take it straight, for instance, 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:03.160 and uh, well I made by astrays. I don't meet 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.280 just stray dogs. Like one time he found a hawk 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.160 that had a broken wing. He took that hawk and 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:11.280 nursed it back to help and let it go. 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:16.040 H Man. 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:18.720 A wife would would for years went and saw him. 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:23.400 You know, every two three weeks, Mama religiously go see him. 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:28.240 Even today he calls me every week. Almost in prison, 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:30.720 he got into the cabintry and the way I understand it, 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:34.520 he's very good at it. He built a prefab homes 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:38.880 there and everybody that knows Tommy, everywhere he's at, even 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:41.480 in prison, everybody likes him. You know, he's a good 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:47.280 Christian man. He's honest, and you know he just just 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:49.200 not in him to do what they claimed he did. 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:53.400 Tommy had befriended Carl Fontanea when Carl had no family 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.640 or home. He wasn't much different from those other strays 0:07:56.680 --> 0:08:00.640 Tommy took in in prison. While Tommy worked carbon jobs, 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:04.480 Carl pursued a different kind of woodworking. He taught himself 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:07.960 the lonely skill of building picture frames out of toothpicks 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:10.720 and glue, even though he didn't have any photos of 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:24.239 loved ones to go in them. While Tommy and Carl 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.840 sat in an Oklahoma prison, words started spreading about this 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:31.760 mysterious case that was built on a dream. Two books 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:34.680 were written about it, one in nineteen eighty seven and 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:36.400 a second in two thousand and six. 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:39.880 This was a case that captured the imagination of an 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:44.280 investigative reporter named Robert Mayer, who wrote a classic wrongful 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:48.480 conviction book entitled Dreams of Ada, and then none other 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.000 than John Grisham wrote a book about this case. 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:53.880 This is the only nonfiction book Grisham ever wrote, and 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:56.160 like he told us in the last episode, even he 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:57.520 couldn't make up a story like this. 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:01.760 Eventually, Grisham's book The innes Man would be turned into 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:05.559 a Netflix series, which was released in twenty and eighteen. 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:09.839 Finally, somebody was taking notice, is starting to believe in 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:13.280 Tommy's story. I mean, it's even gone so far where 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.120 I get on vicebook, people on the other side the world, 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:21.520 I mean Ukrainian and in Price's Italy, you know, wishing 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:25.640 Tommy well and believing in his innocent It's just pretty amazing. 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:29.600 While journalists were telling Tommy and Carl's stories, the two 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:34.200 men sat behind bars for decades. Both still insisted on 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:38.040 their innocence. They needed post conviction lawyers to take their case, 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:41.719 but any new legal team would face a problem. No 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:45.680 DNA evidence existed that could prove Tommy and Carl's innocence. 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:49.400 How on earth would any lawyers go about exonerating them. 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:51.880 It was a case, turns out that was made for 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:54.640 the organization that Steve and I are lucky enough to 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:58.920 co direct the Center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern University 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:00.000 Pritzker School of Law. 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:02.880 The purpose of the Center on Wrongical Convictions is to 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:09.120 identify and rectify wrongful convictions and other serious miscarriages of justice. 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:13.160 Here's the co founder of our center, renowned journalist Rob Warden. 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:15.880 We thought that it was important to have an organization 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:20.400 that would investigate cases in which there was no DNA 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:25.680 but there was other persuasive evidence of actual innocence. Now, 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.840 these cases are much harder to prove than DNA, but 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:33.360 they are no less compelling. The Center on Wrongful Convictions 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:37.280 was a first innocence project in the country that was 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:40.880 taking non DNA cases as well as DNA cases. 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:43.160 In two thousand and six, when the Center had been 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:46.360 around for about seven years, Rob heard about Tommy Ward's 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:49.080 case and he couldn't forget what he learned. 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.520 We wouldn't even have had a wrongful conviction movement were 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:59.120 it not initially for vibrant investigative reporting. John Grisham and 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:02.040 I had a conversation about the Tommy Ward case when 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.520 he was in Chicago. The thing that was so striking 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:11.559 about the Ward Fontina case was that the dreams conflicted 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:16.800 with known physical facts of the crime. So we have 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:21.480 this evidence that the dream confessions are false and that 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:26.080 quite clearly the ideas here were implanted in the minds 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:30.080 of both Tommy and Carl by the police. The case 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:34.640 probably never should have been brought. It still has immensely 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:38.000 powerful evidence of actual innocence, and that's why the Center 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.160 on Ronical Convictions got involved, and we've been involved in 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:45.920 it for the ensuing a dozen or thirteen years. Still fighting. 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.480 Now here's one thing that fascinated Rob about the case 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.720 and about Ada, Oklahoma. Turns out Tommy Ward wasn't the 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.640 only innocent man from Ada who was convicted of murder 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:58.239 based on a dream confession. 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:03.319 Ron Williamson was minor league baseball player who had been 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:08.160 sentenced to death based on a dream that he described 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:12.520 to police about the crime. He was exonerated by DNA. 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:15.920 So this was an intriguing situation for me. 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:20.160 Of the twelve known dream confessions in the history of 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:25.400 false confessions, we have two of them coming from Ada, Oklahoma, 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:30.400 This small, seventeen thousand person town. What are the chances 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:34.240 of that it's like a cancer cluster. What's going on 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:38.520 here is that these interrogators were hell bent on solving 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:45.200 high profile murders, and they were converting dreams into confessions. 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:50.320 This was part and parcel of their arsenal of tactics 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:55.000 to break suspects down and get them to confess, and 0:12:55.040 --> 0:13:00.240 they were getting false confessions. 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:04.440 If that other dream confession was false, if ron Williamson 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:08.360 had been exonerated, maybe Tommy and Carl could be exonerated too. 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.240 Our colleagues at the Center on Wrongful Convictions partnered with 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:17.239 Oklahoma attorney Mark Barrett to represent Tommy Ward. Carl Fontaneau 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:21.800 also got new representation. Together, both legal teams dug into 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:25.640 the case of Denise Harroway's disappearance. And what did they find. 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:30.360 Not DNA, but they did find evidence of innocence that 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:34.880 was equally compelling. A whole box of investigative reports that 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:39.040 had not been disclosed to Tommy or Carl's defense, eight 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:43.520 hundred and sixty pages of secret evidence, and the contents 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:46.040 of those reports talk about a dream come true. 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:50.360 The discovery of this box is a development that occurred 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:54.080 after all the books, after the Netflix series, and it's 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:57.040 a development that blows this case wide open. 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:01.880 The prosecution. That turns out, we now have learned had 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:08.479 concealed a huge body of exculpatory evidence, including evidence corroborating 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:12.880 Tommy Ward's alibi that he had been at a party 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:15.560 with a bunch of people at the exact time of 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:18.040 the abduction and couldn't have been involved. 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:21.360 In that box. There was also a full recantation from 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:24.880 Carl Fontana, which he wrote just days after he confessed. 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:28.360 There were police reports showing that the only witness who 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:32.120 put Tommy Ward at mcinally's that night, James Moyer, had 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:36.240 completely changed his descriptions several times of whoever it was 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.440 he saw. But what about that blouse with the blue 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:43.400 flowers and lazy collar? That magical proof that Tommy and 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.240 Carl must be guilty because their interrogators didn't know what 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:47.480 Denise was wearing. 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.960 In that box. The lawyers found a draft missing person's 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:55.480 report written by the police but never actually circulated to 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:58.600 either the public or to defense counsel in this case. 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.280 That report to described the blouse that Denise was wearing 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.400 on the day she was abducted. It said that Denise 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:08.800 Harvey was wearing a blouse with blue flowers and lace 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:13.080 around the neckline, and that report was dated one day 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:18.680 after Denise's disappearance. That's months before the interrogations, so the 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:25.320 police knew what Denise was wearing before they interrogated both 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:26.840 Tommy and Carl. 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:30.520 And there was more in the box. Lawyers also found 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:34.360 an undated report of an interview with Denise's sister, which 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:37.040 is probably where police got the information for the missing 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:40.840 person's bulletin. In it, she described Denise as wearing a 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:44.600 button down blouse with small blue flowers that had lace 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.960 around the collar and elastic on the sleeves. These are 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.040 the same details, the same words that ended up in 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:54.760 Tommy and Carl's confessions. Not to play on stereotypes, but 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.160 what are the odds that these two rough and tumbled 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:00.560 dudes from rural Oklahoma would have described a woman Lacey 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.960 Blause using exactly the same words as Denise's sister. 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:09.240 This eviscerates the state's case. The one fact, the blouse fact, 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:12.160 that put these men on death row. We now know 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.240 that the police knew about it before they interrogated Tommy 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:20.560 and Carl. We now know that Denise's sister told them 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:25.600 about it shortly after she disappeared. Now we know it 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:28.680 must have been fed to them by the same police 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:32.360 officers who fed so many other facts to them. The 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:36.640 anchor that police claimed was the basis of conviction in 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:40.640 both Trial I and Trial two. You gotta pull that 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:44.200 anchor up, because remember, there's nothing else in this case, 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:45.800 there's no other evidence. 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:48.360 It was the one unanswerable fact, and. 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:54.400 Now it's answerable. The confessions no longer convict Tommy and Carl. 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:57.840 The detective said they didn't know the description of their 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:03.120 shirt until after Tommy's in Carl's confession, Well, we kind 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:06.480 of have proof now that that's not true. These detectives 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:09.320 got both of them to mention Odell Tipsworth's name in there. 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.879 They added the description of the shirt in there. It 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.760 was just as much these detectives confession as it was 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.000 Tommy and Carl's. I guess that's the best way of 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:18.480 saying that. 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:22.040 So much for the prosecution's ace in the hole. Police 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:25.240 had known all along what Denise was wearing when she disappeared. 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:27.640 Tommy and Carl were innocent. 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.280 I know, I don't understand law or anything, but here 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:36.120 you have a blatant miscarriage of justice because it's their 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.720 job to hand over all the evidence to the defense, 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.480 but the prosecuting attorney did not do that. That's a 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:44.639 violation of their rights. 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:47.280 When you put this all together, there is just no 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:53.000 question that Tommy Ward and Carl Fontineau are absolutely innocent 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:55.680 of this crime and have been the victims of one 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:59.119 of the most egregious miscarriages of justice in the history 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:00.359 of the United States. 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:07.040 The confessions of Tommy Ward and Carl Fontineau are worthless. 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:11.080 There is nothing holding this case together at all. 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:14.840 Based on these new discoveries, both Tommy and Carl filed 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:18.560 petitions for relief, Tommy in state court and Carl in 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:22.560 federal court. Carl's judge was the first to act. In 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:27.159 twenty nineteen, he threw out Carl Fontineau's conviction. After thirty 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:31.600 four years behind bars, Carl was released on bond. He's 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:32.800 finally free. 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:38.000 I'm absolutely delighted that Carl Fontneau has been released. Of course, 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:41.320 the damage that's been done to him can never be undone. 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:44.520 Nobody can ever make this right for Carl, But at 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:46.840 least he is no longer in prison. 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:50.119 And when he was released, he was welcomed with open 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:55.439 arms by a new community, a new family, the community 0:18:55.560 --> 0:19:01.280 of exoneries from the state of Oklahoma. But justice in 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:05.240 this case won't be complete until Tommy Ward is free. 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:08.879 We're very happy for Carl, and Tommy's very happy for Carl. 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:12.360 Of course, it shows hope for Tommy because a lot 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.120 of the things that the federal judge had come out 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:17.800 with it also falls under Tommy's case. 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:22.119 As of this recording, Tommy's still waiting behind bars for 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:24.880 his judge to decide whether he can walk free too. 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:28.920 Tommy's been waiting for that decision for thirty five years, 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:36.320 and God, we hope it's the right one. 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:46.840 I would guess Tommy would be dreaming about freedom. 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:50.399 Now in this case that started with a nightmare. There 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:54.800 are new things to hope for now, doors opening, chains 0:19:54.880 --> 0:20:00.240 being removed, family embracing you and taking you home. These 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.000 are the things that all wrongfully convicted people hope for 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:07.440 until finally, one day those dreams come true. 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:10.120 I have more hope for Tommy now than I've had 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:13.720 in a long time. After thirty five years of knowing 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.159 that your little brothers in prison for something he didn't do. 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:17.120 You want him out. 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:20.080 We want him out bad, and he deserves to be out. 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.640 If there's any justice in this world, he'll be out 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:24.760 one of these days. 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:30.600 Fifteen years after author John Grisham started researching this case. 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:34.040 He still speaks with Tommy Ward all the time and 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:36.639 remains a strong advocate for Tommy's freedom. 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:39.680 Tommy prays for me, will not pray for him. I 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:42.080 will say, Tommy, relax, I'm okay. Worry about you. Sim 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:44.119 That's not the kind of guy is. He has a 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:46.280 long prayer list and he keeps a lot of people 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:49.440 on that list. And Tommy would probably go to work 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:52.680 helping people when he got out. When he gets out, 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:55.719 this is an innocent man. Get him out of prison. 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:57.000 That's what should happen. 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:03.760 Hello, this is a collect call from Tommy's war an 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:06.240 inmate at Connor Correctional Center. 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:10.800 You may start the conversation now. Hello, Hey Tommy, this 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:11.600 is Laura. 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:12.720 And this is Steve Tommy. 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.760 Hi Tommy, how are you doing? 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:21.240 Okay, it's the same my prayers that it's not Marv 0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:22.360 be coming to an ends. 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:24.280 We sure hope. 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:27.280 So can you tell us how you pass your time 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:27.840 these days? 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:31.840 Well, I'm been trying to keep busy. You know, there's 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:34.679 a lot of bit of hobby crams for you know, 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:38.560 like Christmas presence or birthday presence and kind of case. 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:39.399 They're busy doing that. 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:43.119 You've had so many ups and downs over the past 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:47.840 decades that you've been locked up. Do you allow yourself 0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:51.199 to think about what you're going to want to do 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:52.440 when you get out. 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:57.359 Yeah. I like woodwork, and I'd like to open up 0:21:57.400 --> 0:21:59.840 my own wood shop. And I always thought of, you 0:21:59.880 --> 0:22:02.480 know a lot of elderly people where I could go 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:05.880 in and maybe lower their cabinage for them and the answers. 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:09.000 It's like that, you know, make it like wheelchair accessible 0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:12.000 where they can say at home longer instead of happening 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:13.200 to go to a nursing home. 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:17.960 Yeah, that would be pretty meaningful work to do. Do 0:22:18.040 --> 0:22:21.080 you get letters from people who have watched your story 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:22.840 on TV or who read the books? 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:25.760 Oh? Yeah, it's a blessing to hear from everybody that 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:28.920 has written Tommy. No one is to peck them after 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:31.040 they do care. So let's get pig more. 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:36.040 A lot of people care, Tommy, and just from talking 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:38.720 to you now, I can see that you deserve every 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:48.960 one of those blessings and a whole lot more. Hi listeners. 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:51.840 So here's your update on that breaking news we learned 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:55.640 just a few days ago. On December eighteenth, twenty twenty 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:58.359 there was a ruling in Tommy's case, and it's what 0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:02.240 we've all been waiting for. The judge threw out Tommy's conviction. 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:05.959 Not only that, the judge dismissed the charges against Tommy 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:09.600 and ordered him to be released from prison. This is 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:13.000 a moment for celebration and joy. But believe it or not, 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:17.720 Tommy's case still isn't settled. Prosecutors have obtained a temporary 0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:21.520 stay of Tommy's release while they prepare to appeal. So 0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:25.399 for now, Tommy Ward is still behind bars. Steve and 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:28.440 I and the Center on Wrongful Convictions will be posting 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:38.280 updates on Twitter, so follow us for the latest. Tommy 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:41.720 Ward is now sixty years old. Will he finally be 0:23:41.800 --> 0:23:44.560 able to reclaim what's left of his life as an 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:49.040 exonerated man? We hope. So, Tommy, we support you all 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:54.800 the way. Your dream of freedom is our dream too. 0:23:56.920 --> 0:24:00.359 Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions is a production of Law for 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:05.040 Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one Special 0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:08.720 thanks to our executive producers Jason Flamm and Kevin Wardis. 0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:12.359 Our production team is headed by senior producer and Pope, 0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:15.920 along with producers Joshi Hammer and Jess Shane. Our show 0:24:15.960 --> 0:24:19.800