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Speaker 1: To our listeners. This episode is part two of the

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Speaker 1: story of Tommy Ward and Carl Fontineau. Two days before

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Speaker 1: we were scheduled to release this episode, Steve and I

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Speaker 1: learned about breaking news in Tommy's case, and it's the

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Speaker 1: kind of news that reminds us why we do this work.

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Speaker 1: So we'll hear this episode as we originally recorded it,

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Speaker 1: but with a special update at the end. No spoilers,

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Speaker 1: but for Tommy and Carl, it's starting to look like

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Speaker 1: justice might not be just a dream after all. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions.

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Speaker 2: I'm Laura and I writer and I'm Steve Drisen.

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Speaker 1: Today we bring you back to Ada, Oklahoma for the

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Speaker 1: second half of our story about Tommy Ward and Carl Fontineau.

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Speaker 1: When we left off last week, Tommy and Carl were

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Speaker 1: sitting on death row after police turned Tommy's bad dream

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Speaker 1: into a murder confession. This week, we'll tell you about

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Speaker 1: some serious twists in the case, from the discovery of

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Speaker 1: the victims to the revelation of hidden evidence that turned

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Speaker 1: this case upside down. We'll update you on everything that's

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Speaker 1: happened since the twenty eighteen Netflix series The Innocent Man

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Speaker 1: told Tommy and Carl's story. There's been some very good

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Speaker 1: news for one of them and a lot of hope

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Speaker 1: for the other.

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Speaker 3: Steve.

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Speaker 1: For those listeners who missed last week's episode, let's tell

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Speaker 1: them what happened.

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Speaker 2: In Ada, Oklahoma. Denise Haroway, a twenty four year old woman,

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Speaker 2: goes missing. She vanishes the please bring Tommy Ward in

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Speaker 2: for questioning, and.

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Speaker 1: It got ugly fast. Tommy told the police about this

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Speaker 1: nightmare he'd had about Denise's disappearance, and over a nine

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Speaker 1: hour interrogation, police turned that dream into a confession. They

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Speaker 1: even hauled in Tommy's friend, Carl Fontano and got him

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Speaker 1: to confess too. But here's the thing. These confessions were

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Speaker 1: riddled with errors. They named a third perpetrator who had

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Speaker 1: a rock solid alibi. They repeated the stories that police

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Speaker 1: fed to Tommy and Carl without adding anything new. These

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Speaker 1: confessions were obviously obviously false.

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Speaker 2: Now going into trial, the prosecutors have two confessions that

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Speaker 2: are at odds with the objectively noble facts of the crime.

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Speaker 1: But they thought they had an ace in the hole, and.

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Speaker 2: That ace in the hole was a single fact that

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Speaker 2: both Tommy and Carl had told to police. Officers a

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Speaker 2: description of a blouse that Denise Harrowy was wearing at

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Speaker 2: the time that she was abducted. A blouse that it

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Speaker 2: turned out was missing from Denise's wardrobe, A blouse which

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Speaker 2: even the police did not know about at the time

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Speaker 2: they interviewed Tommy and Carl.

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Speaker 1: But based on this one detail in their confessions, Tommy

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Speaker 1: and Carl were convicted of murder. And remember her bodies

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Speaker 1: still hadn't been found when they were convicted.

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Speaker 2: No body, no bones, no motive, nothing but a description

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Speaker 2: of Denise Harroway's blouse, and they are on death row

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Speaker 2: because of that. That's where we pick up the story.

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Speaker 1: Three months after Tommy and Carl were convicted, a wake

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Speaker 1: up call arrived in the case that was built on

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Speaker 1: a dream. On January twenty first, nineteen eighty six, a

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Speaker 1: man was walking through a field in Gurdy, Oklahoma, when

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Speaker 1: he found a skull under some brush. Police found more

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Speaker 1: human remains spread across the field, and dental records confirmed

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Speaker 1: a match. Finally, they'd found Denise Harroway. This discovery produced

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Speaker 1: a new round of problems with Tommy and Carl's confessions.

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Speaker 1: Denise had been found unclothed, twenty miles away from where

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Speaker 1: Tommy and Carl had said they'd left her. Her body

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Speaker 1: hadn't been burned at all, despite the fact that Carl

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Speaker 1: had said they'd set her on fire, and the medical

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Speaker 1: examiner confirmed even though Tommy and Carl had said Denise

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Speaker 1: had been stabbed that never happened. She had actually been

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Speaker 1: shot in the head.

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Speaker 2: It's like they're describing completely different crimes from what happened

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Speaker 2: to Denise Harroway.

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Speaker 1: Both Tommy and Carl's convictions were reversed on appeal, but

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Speaker 1: not because Denise's body had been found. It was because

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Speaker 1: the judge ruled they shouldn't have been tried together. Prosecutors

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Speaker 1: went ahead and tried both Tommy and Carl again, this

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Speaker 1: time separately but using the same evidence as before.

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Speaker 3: When the second trial come up before they had found

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Speaker 3: her remains and everything they found that crime scene had

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Speaker 3: proved Tommy's confession wrong.

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Speaker 4: Nothing was right about it.

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Speaker 1: That's Tommy Ward's brother, Melvin. He's been advocating for Tommy's

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Speaker 1: innocence for over thirty years.

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Speaker 3: Our hearts was a high I mean, how can you

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Speaker 3: ignore you know that she was shot back of the head,

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Speaker 3: and here you got two boys saying it was she was.

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Speaker 3: She was never sad, even in corners before stites at But.

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Speaker 1: Believe it or not, the second trials were deja vu

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Speaker 1: all over again, Just like before. The prosecutors relied on

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Speaker 1: the fact that Tommy and Carl had both said Denise

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Speaker 1: was wearing a blue flowered, ruffled blouse. The police hadn't

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Speaker 1: known anything about the blouse before the interrogation. The prosecutors

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Speaker 1: insisted that fact couldn't have been fed.

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Speaker 2: Imagine you're a prosecutor and you have to stand up

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Speaker 2: in front of a jury and present them with a confession.

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Speaker 2: They can't tell you what happened to Denise, who did it,

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Speaker 2: or even where the crime occurred. That's what these prosecutors

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Speaker 2: had to do. But they did it well enough, well

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Speaker 2: enough to convict both Tommy and Carl a second time.

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Speaker 1: When Tommy heard the verdict, he began to sob uncontrollably.

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Speaker 1: You're all liars, he shouted at the prosecutors. I'm being

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Speaker 1: punished for something I didn't do.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I still have a hard time. I actually thought it

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Speaker 3: would be a hung jury the second one. Confessions are

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Speaker 3: hard to get by. You know, people still believe that,

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Speaker 3: you know, why did you confess if you didn't do it?

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Speaker 3: So their confessions were similar, but they also was off.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm not a lawyer by any means, but

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Speaker 3: I could not see how twelve adult jurors could just

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Speaker 3: ignore all the other evidence. And that's what they did.

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Speaker 4: Had to have.

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Speaker 3: Tommy was totally convicted on this confession. Them confessions sunk

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Speaker 3: them this time around.

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Speaker 1: Tommy Ward and Carl Fontano were ultimately sentenced to life

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Speaker 1: in prison.

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Speaker 3: That's been thirty five years ago plus thirty five years later.

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Speaker 3: I'm just still waiting to get out.

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Speaker 1: Tommy and Carl went off to prison to serve their

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Speaker 1: life sentences years past, and their appeals were denied one

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Speaker 1: after another.

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Speaker 3: Tommy was a kid that he'd take it straight, for instance,

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Speaker 3: and uh, well I made by astrays. I don't meet

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Speaker 3: just stray dogs. Like one time he found a hawk

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Speaker 3: that had a broken wing. He took that hawk and

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Speaker 3: nursed it back to help and let it go.

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Speaker 5: H Man.

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Speaker 3: A wife would would for years went and saw him.

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Speaker 3: You know, every two three weeks, Mama religiously go see him.

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Speaker 3: Even today he calls me every week. Almost in prison,

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Speaker 3: he got into the cabintry and the way I understand it,

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Speaker 3: he's very good at it. He built a prefab homes

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Speaker 3: there and everybody that knows Tommy, everywhere he's at, even

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Speaker 3: in prison, everybody likes him. You know, he's a good

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Speaker 3: Christian man. He's honest, and you know he just just

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Speaker 3: not in him to do what they claimed he did.

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Speaker 1: Tommy had befriended Carl Fontanea when Carl had no family

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Speaker 1: or home. He wasn't much different from those other strays

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Speaker 1: Tommy took in in prison. While Tommy worked carbon jobs,

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Speaker 1: Carl pursued a different kind of woodworking. He taught himself

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Speaker 1: the lonely skill of building picture frames out of toothpicks

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Speaker 1: and glue, even though he didn't have any photos of

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Speaker 1: loved ones to go in them. While Tommy and Carl

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Speaker 1: sat in an Oklahoma prison, words started spreading about this

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Speaker 1: mysterious case that was built on a dream. Two books

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Speaker 1: were written about it, one in nineteen eighty seven and

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Speaker 1: a second in two thousand and six.

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Speaker 2: This was a case that captured the imagination of an

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Speaker 2: investigative reporter named Robert Mayer, who wrote a classic wrongful

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Speaker 2: conviction book entitled Dreams of Ada, and then none other

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Speaker 2: than John Grisham wrote a book about this case.

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Speaker 1: This is the only nonfiction book Grisham ever wrote, and

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Speaker 1: like he told us in the last episode, even he

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Speaker 1: couldn't make up a story like this.

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Speaker 2: Eventually, Grisham's book The innes Man would be turned into

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Speaker 2: a Netflix series, which was released in twenty and eighteen.

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Speaker 3: Finally, somebody was taking notice, is starting to believe in

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Speaker 3: Tommy's story. I mean, it's even gone so far where

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Speaker 3: I get on vicebook, people on the other side the world,

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Speaker 3: I mean Ukrainian and in Price's Italy, you know, wishing

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Speaker 3: Tommy well and believing in his innocent It's just pretty amazing.

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Speaker 1: While journalists were telling Tommy and Carl's stories, the two

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Speaker 1: men sat behind bars for decades. Both still insisted on

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Speaker 1: their innocence. They needed post conviction lawyers to take their case,

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Speaker 1: but any new legal team would face a problem. No

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Speaker 1: DNA evidence existed that could prove Tommy and Carl's innocence.

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Speaker 1: How on earth would any lawyers go about exonerating them.

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Speaker 1: It was a case, turns out that was made for

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Speaker 1: the organization that Steve and I are lucky enough to

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Speaker 1: co direct the Center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern University

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Speaker 1: Pritzker School of Law.

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Speaker 4: The purpose of the Center on Wrongical Convictions is to

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Speaker 4: identify and rectify wrongful convictions and other serious miscarriages of justice.

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Speaker 1: Here's the co founder of our center, renowned journalist Rob Warden.

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Speaker 4: We thought that it was important to have an organization

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Speaker 4: that would investigate cases in which there was no DNA

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Speaker 4: but there was other persuasive evidence of actual innocence. Now,

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Speaker 4: these cases are much harder to prove than DNA, but

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Speaker 4: they are no less compelling. The Center on Wrongful Convictions

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Speaker 4: was a first innocence project in the country that was

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Speaker 4: taking non DNA cases as well as DNA cases.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and six, when the Center had been

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Speaker 1: around for about seven years, Rob heard about Tommy Ward's

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Speaker 1: case and he couldn't forget what he learned.

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Speaker 4: We wouldn't even have had a wrongful conviction movement were

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Speaker 4: it not initially for vibrant investigative reporting. John Grisham and

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Speaker 4: I had a conversation about the Tommy Ward case when

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Speaker 4: he was in Chicago. The thing that was so striking

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Speaker 4: about the Ward Fontina case was that the dreams conflicted

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Speaker 4: with known physical facts of the crime. So we have

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Speaker 4: this evidence that the dream confessions are false and that

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Speaker 4: quite clearly the ideas here were implanted in the minds

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Speaker 4: of both Tommy and Carl by the police. The case

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Speaker 4: probably never should have been brought. It still has immensely

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Speaker 4: powerful evidence of actual innocence, and that's why the Center

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Speaker 4: on Ronical Convictions got involved, and we've been involved in

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Speaker 4: it for the ensuing a dozen or thirteen years. Still fighting.

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Speaker 1: Now here's one thing that fascinated Rob about the case

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Speaker 1: and about Ada, Oklahoma. Turns out Tommy Ward wasn't the

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Speaker 1: only innocent man from Ada who was convicted of murder

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Speaker 1: based on a dream confession.

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Speaker 4: Ron Williamson was minor league baseball player who had been

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Speaker 4: sentenced to death based on a dream that he described

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Speaker 4: to police about the crime. He was exonerated by DNA.

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Speaker 4: So this was an intriguing situation for me.

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Speaker 2: Of the twelve known dream confessions in the history of

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Speaker 2: false confessions, we have two of them coming from Ada, Oklahoma,

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Speaker 2: This small, seventeen thousand person town. What are the chances

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Speaker 2: of that it's like a cancer cluster. What's going on

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Speaker 2: here is that these interrogators were hell bent on solving

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Speaker 2: high profile murders, and they were converting dreams into confessions.

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Speaker 2: This was part and parcel of their arsenal of tactics

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Speaker 2: to break suspects down and get them to confess, and

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Speaker 2: they were getting false confessions.

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Speaker 1: If that other dream confession was false, if ron Williamson

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Speaker 1: had been exonerated, maybe Tommy and Carl could be exonerated too.

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Speaker 1: Our colleagues at the Center on Wrongful Convictions partnered with

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Speaker 1: Oklahoma attorney Mark Barrett to represent Tommy Ward. Carl Fontaneau

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Speaker 1: also got new representation. Together, both legal teams dug into

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Speaker 1: the case of Denise Harroway's disappearance. And what did they find.

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Speaker 1: Not DNA, but they did find evidence of innocence that

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Speaker 1: was equally compelling. A whole box of investigative reports that

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Speaker 1: had not been disclosed to Tommy or Carl's defense, eight

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Speaker 1: hundred and sixty pages of secret evidence, and the contents

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Speaker 1: of those reports talk about a dream come true.

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Speaker 2: The discovery of this box is a development that occurred

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Speaker 2: after all the books, after the Netflix series, and it's

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Speaker 2: a development that blows this case wide open.

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Speaker 4: The prosecution. That turns out, we now have learned had

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Speaker 4: concealed a huge body of exculpatory evidence, including evidence corroborating

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Speaker 4: Tommy Ward's alibi that he had been at a party

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Speaker 4: with a bunch of people at the exact time of

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Speaker 4: the abduction and couldn't have been involved.

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Speaker 1: In that box. There was also a full recantation from

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Speaker 1: Carl Fontana, which he wrote just days after he confessed.

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Speaker 1: There were police reports showing that the only witness who

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Speaker 1: put Tommy Ward at mcinally's that night, James Moyer, had

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Speaker 1: completely changed his descriptions several times of whoever it was

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Speaker 1: he saw. But what about that blouse with the blue

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Speaker 1: flowers and lazy collar? That magical proof that Tommy and

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Speaker 1: Carl must be guilty because their interrogators didn't know what

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Speaker 1: Denise was wearing.

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Speaker 2: In that box. The lawyers found a draft missing person's

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Speaker 2: report written by the police but never actually circulated to

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Speaker 2: either the public or to defense counsel in this case.

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Speaker 2: That report to described the blouse that Denise was wearing

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Speaker 2: on the day she was abducted. It said that Denise

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Speaker 2: Harvey was wearing a blouse with blue flowers and lace

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Speaker 2: around the neckline, and that report was dated one day

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Speaker 2: after Denise's disappearance. That's months before the interrogations, so the

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Speaker 2: police knew what Denise was wearing before they interrogated both

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Speaker 2: Tommy and Carl.

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Speaker 1: And there was more in the box. Lawyers also found

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Speaker 1: an undated report of an interview with Denise's sister, which

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Speaker 1: is probably where police got the information for the missing

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Speaker 1: person's bulletin. In it, she described Denise as wearing a

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Speaker 1: button down blouse with small blue flowers that had lace

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Speaker 1: around the collar and elastic on the sleeves. These are

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Speaker 1: the same details, the same words that ended up in

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Speaker 1: Tommy and Carl's confessions. Not to play on stereotypes, but

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Speaker 1: what are the odds that these two rough and tumbled

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Speaker 1: dudes from rural Oklahoma would have described a woman Lacey

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Speaker 1: Blause using exactly the same words as Denise's sister.

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Speaker 2: This eviscerates the state's case. The one fact, the blouse fact,

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Speaker 2: that put these men on death row. We now know

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Speaker 2: that the police knew about it before they interrogated Tommy

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Speaker 2: and Carl. We now know that Denise's sister told them

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Speaker 2: about it shortly after she disappeared. Now we know it

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Speaker 2: must have been fed to them by the same police

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Speaker 2: officers who fed so many other facts to them. The

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Speaker 2: anchor that police claimed was the basis of conviction in

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Speaker 2: both Trial I and Trial two. You gotta pull that

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Speaker 2: anchor up, because remember, there's nothing else in this case,

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Speaker 2: there's no other evidence.

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Speaker 1: It was the one unanswerable fact, and.

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Speaker 2: Now it's answerable. The confessions no longer convict Tommy and Carl.

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Speaker 3: The detective said they didn't know the description of their

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Speaker 3: shirt until after Tommy's in Carl's confession, Well, we kind

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Speaker 3: of have proof now that that's not true. These detectives

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Speaker 3: got both of them to mention Odell Tipsworth's name in there.

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Speaker 3: They added the description of the shirt in there. It

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Speaker 3: was just as much these detectives confession as it was

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Speaker 3: Tommy and Carl's. I guess that's the best way of

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Speaker 3: saying that.

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Speaker 1: So much for the prosecution's ace in the hole. Police

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Speaker 1: had known all along what Denise was wearing when she disappeared.

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Speaker 1: Tommy and Carl were innocent.

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Speaker 3: I know, I don't understand law or anything, but here

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Speaker 3: you have a blatant miscarriage of justice because it's their

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Speaker 3: job to hand over all the evidence to the defense,

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Speaker 3: but the prosecuting attorney did not do that. That's a

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Speaker 3: violation of their rights.

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Speaker 4: When you put this all together, there is just no

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Speaker 4: question that Tommy Ward and Carl Fontineau are absolutely innocent

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Speaker 4: of this crime and have been the victims of one

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Speaker 4: of the most egregious miscarriages of justice in the history

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Speaker 4: of the United States.

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Speaker 2: The confessions of Tommy Ward and Carl Fontineau are worthless.

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Speaker 2: There is nothing holding this case together at all.

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Speaker 1: Based on these new discoveries, both Tommy and Carl filed

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Speaker 1: petitions for relief, Tommy in state court and Carl in

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Speaker 1: federal court. Carl's judge was the first to act. In

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, he threw out Carl Fontineau's conviction. After thirty

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Speaker 1: four years behind bars, Carl was released on bond. He's

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Speaker 1: finally free.

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Speaker 4: I'm absolutely delighted that Carl Fontneau has been released. Of course,

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Speaker 4: the damage that's been done to him can never be undone.

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Speaker 4: Nobody can ever make this right for Carl, But at

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Speaker 4: least he is no longer in prison.

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Speaker 2: And when he was released, he was welcomed with open

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Speaker 2: arms by a new community, a new family, the community

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Speaker 2: of exoneries from the state of Oklahoma. But justice in

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Speaker 2: this case won't be complete until Tommy Ward is free.

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Speaker 3: We're very happy for Carl, and Tommy's very happy for Carl.

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Speaker 3: Of course, it shows hope for Tommy because a lot

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Speaker 3: of the things that the federal judge had come out

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Speaker 3: with it also falls under Tommy's case.

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Speaker 1: As of this recording, Tommy's still waiting behind bars for

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Speaker 1: his judge to decide whether he can walk free too.

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Speaker 1: Tommy's been waiting for that decision for thirty five years,

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Speaker 1: and God, we hope it's the right one.

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Speaker 3: I would guess Tommy would be dreaming about freedom.

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Speaker 1: Now in this case that started with a nightmare. There

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Speaker 1: are new things to hope for now, doors opening, chains

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Speaker 1: being removed, family embracing you and taking you home. These

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Speaker 1: are the things that all wrongfully convicted people hope for

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Speaker 1: until finally, one day those dreams come true.

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Speaker 3: I have more hope for Tommy now than I've had

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Speaker 3: in a long time. After thirty five years of knowing

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Speaker 3: that your little brothers in prison for something he didn't do.

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Speaker 2: You want him out.

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Speaker 3: We want him out bad, and he deserves to be out.

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Speaker 3: If there's any justice in this world, he'll be out

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Speaker 3: one of these days.

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Speaker 1: Fifteen years after author John Grisham started researching this case.

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Speaker 1: He still speaks with Tommy Ward all the time and

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Speaker 1: remains a strong advocate for Tommy's freedom.

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Speaker 6: Tommy prays for me, will not pray for him. I

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Speaker 6: will say, Tommy, relax, I'm okay. Worry about you. Sim

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Speaker 6: That's not the kind of guy is. He has a

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Speaker 6: long prayer list and he keeps a lot of people

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Speaker 6: on that list. And Tommy would probably go to work

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Speaker 6: helping people when he got out. When he gets out,

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Speaker 6: this is an innocent man. Get him out of prison.

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Speaker 6: That's what should happen.

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Speaker 3: Hello, this is a collect call from Tommy's war an

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Speaker 3: inmate at Connor Correctional Center.

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Speaker 1: You may start the conversation now. Hello, Hey Tommy, this

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Speaker 1: is Laura.

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Speaker 2: And this is Steve Tommy.

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Speaker 1: Hi Tommy, how are you doing?

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Speaker 5: Okay, it's the same my prayers that it's not Marv

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Speaker 5: be coming to an ends.

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Speaker 2: We sure hope.

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Speaker 1: So can you tell us how you pass your time

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Speaker 1: these days?

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Speaker 5: Well, I'm been trying to keep busy. You know, there's

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Speaker 5: a lot of bit of hobby crams for you know,

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Speaker 5: like Christmas presence or birthday presence and kind of case.

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Speaker 5: They're busy doing that.

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Speaker 2: You've had so many ups and downs over the past

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Speaker 2: decades that you've been locked up. Do you allow yourself

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Speaker 2: to think about what you're going to want to do

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Speaker 2: when you get out.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. I like woodwork, and I'd like to open up

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Speaker 5: my own wood shop. And I always thought of, you

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Speaker 5: know a lot of elderly people where I could go

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Speaker 5: in and maybe lower their cabinage for them and the answers.

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Speaker 5: It's like that, you know, make it like wheelchair accessible

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Speaker 5: where they can say at home longer instead of happening

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Speaker 5: to go to a nursing home.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be pretty meaningful work to do. Do

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Speaker 1: you get letters from people who have watched your story

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Speaker 1: on TV or who read the books?

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Speaker 5: Oh? Yeah, it's a blessing to hear from everybody that

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Speaker 5: has written Tommy. No one is to peck them after

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Speaker 5: they do care. So let's get pig more.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people care, Tommy, and just from talking

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Speaker 1: to you now, I can see that you deserve every

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Speaker 1: one of those blessings and a whole lot more. Hi listeners.

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Speaker 1: So here's your update on that breaking news we learned

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Speaker 1: just a few days ago. On December eighteenth, twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: there was a ruling in Tommy's case, and it's what

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Speaker 1: we've all been waiting for. The judge threw out Tommy's conviction.

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Speaker 1: Not only that, the judge dismissed the charges against Tommy

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Speaker 1: and ordered him to be released from prison. This is

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Speaker 1: a moment for celebration and joy. But believe it or not,

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Speaker 1: Tommy's case still isn't settled. Prosecutors have obtained a temporary

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Speaker 1: stay of Tommy's release while they prepare to appeal. So

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Speaker 1: for now, Tommy Ward is still behind bars. Steve and

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Speaker 1: I and the Center on Wrongful Convictions will be posting

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Speaker 1: updates on Twitter, so follow us for the latest. Tommy

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Speaker 1: Ward is now sixty years old. Will he finally be

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Speaker 1: able to reclaim what's left of his life as an

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Speaker 1: exonerated man? We hope. So, Tommy, we support you all

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Speaker 1: the way. Your dream of freedom is our dream too.

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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions is a production of Law for

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Speaker 1: Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one Special

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Speaker 1: thanks to our executive producers Jason Flamm and Kevin Wardis.

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Speaker 1: Our production team is headed by senior producer and Pope,

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Speaker 1: along with producers Joshi Hammer and Jess Shane. Our show

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Speaker 1: is mixed by Genie Montalvo. John Colbert is our intrepid intern.

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Speaker 1: Our music was composed by Jay Ralph. You can follow

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Speaker 1: me on Instagram or Twitter at Laura and I Wrider,

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Speaker 1: and you.

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Speaker 2: Can follow me on Twitter at s Drisen.

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Speaker 1: For more information on the show, visit Wrongful Conviction podcast

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Speaker 1: dot com. Be sure to follow the show on Instagram

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00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and

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Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction