1 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: Nice earth. 2 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 2: Does that mean more close? 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, oh good. 4 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 2: First time I ever heard anything about Guyana it was 5 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 2: years ago in a pirate bar, Yes, a pirate bar 6 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 2: in San Francisco, drinking aged rum for the first time, 7 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 2: while a friend of mine told me about this new 8 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 2: gig he'd gotten promoting. A small South American country has 9 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 2: an ecotourism destination. Conservation efforts and ecotourism have been a 10 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 2: big thing in Guyana about as long as they've been 11 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: a thing, period. But now the country is known not 12 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 2: only for its pristine rainforest and hundreds of species of 13 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 2: native birds, but also for its burgeoning oil industry. I 14 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 2: wanted to know whether the ecotourism folks were annoyed by 15 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 2: the oil folks, whether they worried that having to fly 16 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 2: into an oil boomtown might dampen the ecotourism experience for people, 17 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 2: or whether they could just sort of ignore it all. 18 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 2: So we planned a trip to Kiman House, or as 19 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 2: Americans might say, at Cayman House. Coimon House is an 20 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 2: eco lodge and research center in the heart of Guyana's 21 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 2: Rupununi region. Unlike the rest of the interior of the country, 22 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 2: which is mountains and forest. The Rupununi is savannah. There 23 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 2: are cowboys there and wide open spaces, and it's way 24 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 2: closer to Brazil than it is to Georgetown. I was 25 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: excited to explore a different part of the country, and 26 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 2: then I messed up my flight plans and our producer 27 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 2: Sarah had to go alone, first on a tiny plane 28 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 2: to a city called Letham, and then on a two 29 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 2: hour drive in a pickup truck over dirt roads. 30 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 4: Hi. Hi, I'm Dilian, I'm Sarah Nice, Sarah Lay. 31 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 1: Would you welcome to you? Carrion thim In House. 32 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 3: Thank you. 33 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 2: Kimon House is primarily staffed by members of various local 34 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 2: indigenous tribes, which is quite common with ecotourism destinations in Guyana. 35 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 2: The country has provided a model for ecotourism that can 36 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 2: offer indigenous locals and income and visitors in immersive experience. 37 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: Sometimes eco lodges double as research stations, and that's definitely 38 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 2: true of Kiman House where they research yes kim in, 39 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,519 Speaker 2: specifically black kime in. If you've never seen one before. 40 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 2: They're the same family as alligators. A lot of kimen 41 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 2: are small, but the black kime in can be up 42 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 2: to fourteen feet long, so a little bit terrifying. The 43 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 2: boat a small metal one with a motor attached and 44 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 2: some benches to sit on heads out. At sundown, the 45 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 2: guy brings snacks and of course Guyana's famous El Dorado 46 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 2: aged rum. It's humid and sweaty, and there are tons 47 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 2: of mosquitoes, but serious says, it's so picturesque and gorgeous 48 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 2: just you and all these animals around you, that none 49 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 2: of that really matters, okay. 50 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 4: And then as nightfall we will come shaning. 51 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: If he has a bright art, he will come shaning 52 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: looking for bars or animal whatsoever we can see on. 53 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,839 Speaker 2: Can I have some water before we get on the boat. 54 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 5: Oh yes, if you want to have your urination, I'm sorry, 55 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:39,839 Speaker 5: you can use the bushit. 56 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: Okay, No, I'm actually okay, but thank you. 57 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: And it's not just time. And you'll see from the boat, 58 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: Guyana's forests and rivers are teeming with life. 59 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: Right here. 60 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 6: It's just the monkeys, the birds, the lucky enough you 61 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 6: see tupy swimming across or coffee barus and otters are. 62 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 4: Come on here. 63 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: When they do spot a kimen, they pull them up 64 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 2: to tag or check them, and sometimes they take guests 65 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 2: along for the ride. 66 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: J Yeah, they say, what is that? 67 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 4: That's how we get gen Along the way. 68 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 2: Guides like this one, who referred to himself interchangeably as 69 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 2: Josie and jose Id, birds by their call and tell 70 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: visitors all about the local area and customs. The founders 71 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 2: of Kiman House are an American couple who lived in 72 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 2: Guyana for a number of years because one of them 73 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,919 Speaker 2: was a researcher studying you guessed it, the Black Kymen. 74 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: They developed relationships with community members and created a library 75 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 2: for local school children. They even started to look after 76 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 2: the area's stray dogs, who now called Kimen House their 77 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: home and give the staff some extra mouths to feed. 78 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 2: Guyana has about a dozen of these sorts of eco 79 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 2: lodges all across the country, and people come from all 80 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 2: over the world to visit them. In twenty nineteen, Guyana 81 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 2: was named the planet's top eco tourism destination at ITB Berlin, 82 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 2: the largest tourism trade show in the world. Twenty nineteen. 83 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 2: That's the same year the country shipped its first barrel 84 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 2: of oil. That honor of top ecotourism destination is one 85 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 2: that Guyana had been working really hard to win for 86 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 2: close to twenty years. So I thought, surely there would 87 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 2: be some concerns about how becoming one of the world's 88 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 2: largest oil producers could impact that. But it turned out 89 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 2: tho opposie is true. That's our story today. I'm Ami 90 00:05:47,680 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 2: Westervelt and this is light, sweet crude. Guyana has had 91 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 2: a well deserved global reputation for conservation for a long time. 92 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 2: In two thousand and nine, it was one of the 93 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: very first participants in a UN program called RED which 94 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 2: stands for Reducing emissions from deforestation and forest degradation. Basically, 95 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 2: it lets high emitting global North countries pay low emitting 96 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 2: global South countries to preserve their forests. So Norway, an 97 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 2: oil rich country, committed to pay two hundred and fifty 98 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 2: million dollars to Guyana provided that Guyana could show certain 99 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: conservation metrics along the way. That deal was signed by 100 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 2: former President Brought jug Daeo, Yes, the same jug Dao 101 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:07,919 Speaker 2: that's Vice president today and the government's biggest supporter of 102 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 2: the oil industry. The payments from the Norway deal were 103 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 2: supposed to fund low carbon development. The idea was that 104 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 2: the money could help Guyana develop, but do so in 105 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 2: a way that would limit greenhouse gas emissions. It was 106 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 2: heralded as this great example of how we could value 107 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 2: ecological services, things like forest full of trees that capture 108 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: and store carbon dioxide, for example, or the preservation of biodiversity, 109 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 2: but it still had the whiff of colonialism about it. Norway, 110 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: a country that is tremendously wealthy from oil with a 111 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 2: trillion dollars Sovereign Wealth Fund, telling Guyana how to preserve biodiversity. 112 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 6: Okay, so you were saying you were going to get 113 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 6: X dollars if you maintain deforestation rate that point zero 114 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 6: five percent fifty million over five years. 115 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 2: Dane Gobin is the CEO of the IBACRAMA International Center 116 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 2: for Rainforest Conservation and Development, the crown jewel of Guyana's 117 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 2: conservation and ecotourism efforts. 118 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 6: But at the same time, what you're saying is that 119 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 6: you have to satisfy other criteria to get the money. Yeah, 120 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 6: so you're going to the shop to buy upound the butter, 121 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 6: and you pay for the butler, and the guy is saying, 122 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 6: so before I give you the butterer, you need to 123 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 6: tell me if you're taking care of your children, if 124 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 6: you wash your. 125 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 2: Car more than a decade before the Norway deal was signed. 126 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 2: Guyana created a three hundred and seventy one thousand hector 127 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 2: reserve called Uacrama in the middle of what's called the 128 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 2: Guyana Shield, an area with tremendous by diversity to the 129 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 2: northwest the Amazon Rainforest. The government established the Ebucroma International 130 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: Center there to research and pilot sustainable forestry and agriculture projects, 131 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 2: and they opened the Ewacroma River Lodge as one of 132 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 2: the country's first eco tourism destinations. Ebukroma has had loads 133 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 2: of international donors over the years. Its current patron is 134 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 2: King Charles. 135 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 6: And I'm saying, Hondan, the butter is a dollar, I'm 136 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:35,319 Speaker 6: paying you a dollar. What's this side of stuff? So 137 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 6: it's it's a challenge because the dough in a country 138 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 6: doing it, it's taxpayers money, so they have to do 139 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 6: it on the best practice. Quote governor's anti corruption targets 140 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 6: should be met and sun it's a donation, right, and 141 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 6: that's a challenge. So government is Saint Hondan, you're paying 142 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 6: for the forest. You've agreed that this is the rate 143 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 6: of defire station. We've maintained it. What's this about other stuff? Now, 144 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 6: this is a business transaction. The people who want this 145 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 6: have what they call steel ropes attached. It's not just 146 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 6: the protective forests. And it's actually condescending because especially on 147 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 6: the basis that you have destroyed your forest, but you're 148 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:23,079 Speaker 6: actually so you're giving me money to almost tell the 149 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 6: breed to the air that you breathe, but you're telling 150 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 6: us how to spend it. 151 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 2: Gobin says that he's been on the other side of 152 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:34,239 Speaker 2: this sort of situation too, with payments to local indigenous 153 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 2: groups around you, Acrama. 154 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,959 Speaker 6: We have had that at the level of the communities 155 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 6: and let me, I can understand from their perspective. So 156 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 6: when the communities aren't Timber and money's from us, we're 157 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 6: worried about how this money is going to be spent. 158 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 6: Will they go open a round shop? What will they do? So, 159 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 6: I mean, we'd like to see a school build, we'd 160 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 6: like to see scholarships, but this is their wood. We're 161 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 6: paying them for deer wood. We can't tell them. So 162 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 6: what we did with the communities, and it's a model, 163 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 6: and I don't think it will work at them bilaterals, 164 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 6: but we work with them. And he says, look, you 165 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 6: set up a committee to look at how the money 166 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 6: will be spent. 167 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 2: So in a way, there is no clean money. It's 168 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 2: always tied to something, which begs the question where do 169 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 2: you draw the line. For Gobin, there's little difference between 170 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 2: taking money from Norway or taking money from say Axon. Today, 171 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 2: the company has donated seven million dollars to EWACRAMA through 172 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 2: its foundation. 173 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 7: Guyana is part of a very important landscape known as 174 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 7: the Guyana Shield. It's actually one of the last remaining 175 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 7: intact force ecosystems. 176 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 2: In the world. 177 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,359 Speaker 7: This space offers a great opportunity for conservation. 178 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 2: Excellent's CEE may not have visited Euacrama yet, but it's 179 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 2: marketing team sure has. They've been busy making videos there 180 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 2: to promote the company's commitment to conservation in Guyana. 181 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 7: We really need to nurture it and ensure that we 182 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 7: have this re future generations to come, even while we 183 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 7: use it in a wise way. 184 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: Gobin is well aware of the optics and how people 185 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 2: might be irged by a conservation organization receiving millions of 186 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 2: dollars in donations from an oil company. 187 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 6: And yes, the obvious question is, you know, should we 188 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 6: be taking money from the oil company. And my question 189 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 6: to that is okay, oil will be there. We continue 190 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 6: to say, you know, if you read the papers, if 191 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 6: you read the chitro, you'll see, you know, exon stripping Ayana. 192 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 6: The question is if we've accepted that they're stripping for 193 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 6: a moment, they're giving you something back. It could be more, 194 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 6: but they're giving you something back. And if they didn't 195 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 6: give you, they would get knocked for not giving something 196 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 6: back when they're giving No, the question is should you 197 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 6: be accepting we are not advocacy. We're not advocates. Don't 198 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,119 Speaker 6: we run a rainforest. We don't get involved in politics. 199 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 6: But we have to take care of all people. And 200 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 6: if somebody is saying, here's a grant, you can do 201 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 6: capacity building and training, you can immove the livelhoods of Guyanese. 202 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 6: You could do all kinds of things, why should we 203 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 6: say no. 204 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 8: Dan's not stupid. Dan just doesn't tell. As long as 205 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 8: there's money. 206 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, remember Melinda Jenkie, the lawyer trying to stop the 207 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 2: offshore drilling project in court. For Jinkie, there is no 208 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 2: way to separate the money from its corporate influence. There 209 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 2: are always strings attached. 210 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 8: I find a lot of people in this conservation sector 211 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 8: in this country. It's not that interested in conservation, but 212 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 8: they are very interested in being given grants to do 213 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 8: what they term conservation work, which generally conserves nothing. 214 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: How does it concern nothing? 215 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 8: What do they do? Wf were They did the thing 216 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 8: off Surguyana and came back in rapturous about the wonderful 217 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 8: marine wildlife we had and that it's possible to do 218 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 8: oil and protect marine wildlife. I'm not entirely sure what 219 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 8: planet we can do that on, but it's not this one. 220 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: Pri But Exxon is dropping more than just money. 221 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 8: They are allowed to dump four thousand barrels of sewage 222 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 8: into the ocean every day. So four thousand barrels of 223 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 8: sewage every day adds up to, over the life of 224 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 8: the project, one point two billion gallons of sewage in 225 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 8: our pristine ocean. There's one point two billion bottles of 226 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 8: oil in that particular field, so we're getting roughly again 227 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 8: the ship for every bottel of oil they take out. 228 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 2: Exxon's money has those same steel ropes attached as other 229 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 2: international donors, but instead of requiring good governance and a 230 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 2: crackdown on political corruption, they're asking Euochrama staff to appear 231 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 2: in marketing videos and say that Exon is supporting important 232 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 2: conservation efforts. Some might say they want to greenwash. 233 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 6: This is not a personal benefit. This is a benefit 234 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 6: to Iwokrama, it's community partners and to the nation of Guyana. 235 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 6: And as I said, we could probably get some more. 236 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 6: But at the end of the day, you know what 237 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 6: the recognition is. I mean, it's something that I don't 238 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 6: think people on average realize. Exxon Mobile bet five or 239 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 6: billion dollars without knowing what was there. Shell left. Shell 240 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 6: was partner, and they left a few years after because 241 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 6: there was nothing. 242 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 2: Bobin is referring to the original contract that Exon had 243 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 2: with Guyana, which was signed in nineteen ninety nine. At 244 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 2: the time, Exon's exploration partner was Shell, but after the 245 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 2: two started exploring an earnest in two thousand and eight 246 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 2: and didn't find anything for a few years, Shell left 247 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 2: that partnership. 248 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 6: Now shouldn't they be given some kind of what recognition 249 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 6: for that investment in Guyana? Because if there was nothing there, 250 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 6: they would have walked away with a five billion dollar loss. 251 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 6: They stuck it out. And I'm not advocating for them. 252 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 6: I have no interest. Actually, I would not like to 253 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 6: see ail out there. But the reality is you look 254 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 6: at the way healthcare system, look at ouray education system. 255 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 6: Guyanese want to go to Harvard guy and wanted to 256 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 6: go with the year better school's bet the healthcare, So 257 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 6: who's paying for that? 258 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 2: We heard this from a lot of people in the 259 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 2: conservation space, this idea that oil is obviously not great 260 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 2: for the environment, but what's done is done, and they 261 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 2: may as well use the oil money to further conservation efforts. 262 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 2: I really wanted to hear from the one person everyone 263 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 2: I spoke with in Guyana told me to talk to 264 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 2: about conservation. Hi, I'm sorry, I'm early, so okay jet. 265 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 2: He reminds me of my not and that our June 266 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 2: runs the Guyana Marine Conservation Society. She shared some similarly 267 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 2: contradictory views while we were walking around her neighborhood near 268 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 2: the coast in Georgetown. 269 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 4: Oleander gardens are oleander plants, the orleander flowers, and this 270 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 4: area is called oleander gardens. But because of all the 271 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 4: old homes being bought out and demolished and replaced by 272 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 4: these high rising apartments, we now have chamberget Xon as 273 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 4: our neighbors. So I always tell people you are now 274 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 4: coming into Oily and the Gardens, which is you know, 275 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 4: a bastardization of or beautiful oleander flower. So welcome to 276 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 4: Oily and the Gardens. 277 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 2: But well, our June seems not so thrilled the idea 278 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,360 Speaker 2: that her neighborhood has been turned into condos central for 279 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 2: foreign oil execs. She's also happy that Guyanese property owners 280 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 2: and developers are benefiting from that change. 281 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: Now these are three. Each apartment has its own to 282 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: the bath. 283 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 2: Wow. 284 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: So there was those a couple of five that was 285 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 1: in the US for a month. Wow. And they're all 286 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 1: Guyanese business people. 287 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 2: And then renting out mostly to Yeah, it's all oil 288 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: and gas. 289 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: But then why was saying that they. 290 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 4: Carved back in terms of local content. They gave a 291 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 4: Guyanese opportunities in the real estate market, you know. So 292 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 4: this is Tracy's ten apartments there and another five year 293 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 4: all of them are already rented out. 294 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 2: Wow. 295 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: And I went to school with her in Barbados. 296 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 4: So lots of young people like our age as well, 297 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 4: are getting opportunities to become you know, food caterers, service providers, 298 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 4: logistics providers. 299 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 2: Right because they have to hire they have our June 300 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,400 Speaker 2: says when she first heard Axon was coming to Guyana, 301 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 2: she was worried. 302 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 4: I didn't know much about Exxon other than when there 303 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 4: was that New Yorker article that basically was, you know, 304 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 4: exposing their culture and reality of funding climate change denial 305 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 4: denial campaigns. That was the first time Exon came in 306 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 4: my radar. And and and to me, if you're your 307 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 4: you know, top tier of your company is doing something 308 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 4: as as insidious as that it was, it was terrible. 309 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 4: It was terrible for me because if you're, you know, 310 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 4: funding climate change denial campaigns, how could you be considered 311 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 4: environmentally responsible? So having all of the technology is one thing, 312 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 4: but that technology is useless if your culture is one 313 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 4: of of de sit. 314 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 2: She's also very clear eyed about the climate tax Guyana 315 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 2: is already experiencing and the role that fossil fuels play 316 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 2: and exacerbating those impacts. 317 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 4: And appeared that's supposed to be a tri season. You're 318 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 4: still having torrential downpour. You're having short torrential downport. I 319 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 4: will flood your city and in minutes. You know, all 320 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 4: of that, you're seeing that that that that was never 321 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 4: what our weather conditioned to be like in the past 322 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 4: and shell each way I worked, we had in in 323 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 4: cases parts of the beach we were losing like ninety 324 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 4: feet of beach per month. That is sort of unprecedented 325 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 4: erosion in terms of the rapidity of that as actually 326 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 4: as a result of that that that effect the community 327 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 4: of two hundred and eighty members of them had to 328 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 4: relocate inland to higher ground. So that was what in 329 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 4: my and I always refer to as my first experience of 330 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 4: climate change refugees. 331 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 2: But she doesn't necessarily see any of that as a 332 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 2: reason not to drill for oil offshore. She believes Exon 333 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 2: can and will do better in Guyana with respect to 334 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 2: environmental protections. 335 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 4: So for sure, I think Exxon has an opportunity of goal, 336 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 4: an opportunity to do what is right by the environment, 337 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 4: and if they don't, well, you know, we'll call them out. 338 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 4: And I think as well to the government also has 339 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 4: to hold it Exon accomfortable because Exxon gets away with 340 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 4: slackness if it's allowed by the administration. 341 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 2: And she sees whatever environmental degradation oil drilling might bring 342 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 2: as an acceptable trade off for money that could lift 343 00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 2: Guyanese out of poverty. Although she was eventually sent to 344 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 2: boarding school and taught to fly planes by her father. 345 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 2: Our June grew up in the indigenous village that her 346 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 2: mother was from, and she saw there up close the 347 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 2: poverty that a lot of Guyanese citizens still deal with today. 348 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 4: Guana it was a very poor country. And growing up 349 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 4: with my Amoronnian grandmother in a river in community where 350 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 4: there was a lot of poverty as well, including workin' 351 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 4: on shell Beach where you know people that eat sea 352 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 4: dartlet meat and eggs exists. Seeing poverty was a part 353 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 4: of my reality. 354 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 2: Shell Beach became the first place Our June's organization worked 355 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,199 Speaker 2: to conserve. Today she works with local residents there to 356 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 2: protect the turtles that they once had to eat to survive. 357 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 2: But she's also seen poverty force young people in the 358 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 2: area into sex work just to access daily necessities. 359 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 4: Seeing young girls who had no economic opportunities and would 360 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 4: have to have survival sex to be able to buy 361 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,479 Speaker 4: an underwear or buy a bra, or to eat as 362 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 4: part of my reality. So in terms of seeing, you know, 363 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 4: this country being blessed with so much natural resources, including 364 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 4: the recently discovered and produce oil, it made me. It 365 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 4: makes me realize that. Look, if you have, you know, 366 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 4: abundant natural sources, and you could use those natural resources 367 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 4: in a very responsible manner to help to help lift 368 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 4: your people out of poverty. That's what I support. 369 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: It makes a lot of sense. The looming question, of course, 370 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: is whether it will actually lift people out of poverty, 371 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 2: and whether it will do so before it destroys any 372 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 2: of the other natural resources that Guyanese people depend on. 373 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 2: That's where Janki, the attorney we heard from before, thinks 374 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 2: a lot of Guyanese people are engaging in magical thinking. 375 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 5: The global Norse has basically broken the global climate system 376 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,360 Speaker 5: as a result of greenhouse gas pollution, and I think 377 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 5: we should stop talking about emissions and call it what 378 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 5: it is, which is pollution from fossil fuels. It is 379 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 5: incredibly stupid for anybody to say, well, because you did 380 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 5: something bad and broke it, we now have a right 381 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 5: to do something bad and break it even further. The 382 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 5: global climate system is precisely what it says, it's a 383 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 5: global climate system. The idea that more money is going 384 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 5: to make things better again it. 385 00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 2: Is also false. 386 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 5: Gen is not a poor country, gain is an extremely 387 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,120 Speaker 5: rich country. It's the people who are poor, and they're 388 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 5: poor because it's the same set of people that have 389 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 5: governed this country and run it into the ground. So 390 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 5: the idea that more money will make any difference is 391 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 5: not based on any evidence whatsoever. All the evidence points 392 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 5: to the government, whichever government is, whichever party is in power, 393 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 5: it doesn't really matter. What it points to is squandering 394 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 5: of national income. And I think it's disingenuous to be 395 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 5: claiming to be a conservation organization and at the same 396 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 5: time trying to make allowances for the fossil fuel sector, 397 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 5: which is destroying the planet. Now, a marine conservation society 398 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 5: supposedly cares about turtles. They actually started off as a 399 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 5: gan a marine turtle conservation society. 400 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 2: That's the organization that on our June runs. 401 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 5: You only have to look at what oil does to 402 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 5: a turtle to realize that saying on the one hand 403 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 5: that you want to protect turtles and saying on the 404 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 5: other hand that fossil fuels can be beneficial in some 405 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 5: way are to completely contradictory positions. It's one or the other. 406 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 5: Either you protect the ocean or you support fossil fuels. 407 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,199 Speaker 5: There isn't any middle ground. 408 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 2: And Ewercrama Dean Gobin is still hopeful that selling ecosystem services, 409 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 2: both to oil companies and to other international buyers is 410 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 2: a potential path out of poverty for Guyana that keeps 411 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 2: the focus on conservation. When he talks about it, he 412 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 2: sounds very similar to Jankie. 413 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 6: Actually, so ecosystem services would be as very common as 414 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 6: carbon which people speak of as tourism. It's a service 415 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 6: from the ecosystem, the fires, the environment. But then you 416 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 6: get into the carbon hydrology, water major ecosystem services. They 417 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 6: say the next wars will be fought over water. Unfortunately 418 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 6: a lot of people have recognized forests for these ecosystem services, 419 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 6: but no one could put their value in it. Now, 420 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 6: if I got the loan from the band, I would 421 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 6: say we have arrived as far as managers, and I've 422 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 6: always believed we're in the conservation business. This is not 423 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 6: any fluffy thing. This is a business. You have a 424 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 6: car business, you have a stationary business, you sell hardware. 425 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 6: I sell ecosystem services. 426 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:41,239 Speaker 5: Give Guyana the respect and the admiration for being a 427 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:46,479 Speaker 5: carbon sink and starting that dialogue about how do we 428 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 5: actually make sure that this country stays as a carbon 429 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 5: sink Because that's the most important thing for the planet. 430 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 5: If every country was a carbon sink, we would not 431 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 5: be in the mess we are in now. 432 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 2: All right. 433 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 5: This is where people need to stand up and say, 434 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 5: there is a better future for Guyana, and we can 435 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 5: help you to do that. Get rid of these loans, 436 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 5: get rid of the debt, Stop lending money to governments 437 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 5: who then squander it and burden the population with it. 438 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 5: But simply pay us the people for that carbon sink service. 439 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 5: Pay us the people to create a marine protected area 440 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 5: over our exclusive economic zone and protect everything that's there. 441 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 5: That's good enough. 442 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 2: The key difference between the two is that Gobin sees 443 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: no problem with selling those services to Exon or its 444 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 2: partners to offset the emissions they're generating by drilling for 445 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 2: oil offshore. But for all of his faith in Guyana's 446 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 2: valuable ecosystem services and his acceptance of the oil industry 447 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 2: as a sort of necessary evil, Gobin also realizes that 448 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 2: a catastrophic oil spill would ruin all of it. Is 449 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 2: there any concern that something like an oil spill, for example, 450 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 2: if it was big enough, could impact the ecosystem services? 451 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 6: Definitely? Definitely, Yeah, And that's the worry you know, the 452 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 6: thing is, I wouldn't sit here and say it wouldn't. 453 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 6: I would sit here and says it can't happen. Yeah, 454 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 6: because chances are it's going to happen. 455 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of evidence around that, the 456 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 2: data speaks for. 457 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 6: So you know, again, the best the next best thing 458 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 6: to that is what planning and planning plan ahead. So 459 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 6: this is going to happen. It has happened before, it 460 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 6: will happen again. So if it happened, so I know, 461 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 6: government is very actively working with the companies to look 462 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 6: at plan to put in place mechanisms, emergency mechanisms to 463 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 6: save the coastline. And I'm comfortable that the board, government 464 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 6: and the companies are spending enough resources to be able 465 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 6: to deal with it. 466 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 2: But even as the country starts to build the skills 467 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 2: and resources required to deal with oil, another environmental danger 468 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 2: is looming. 469 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 3: We are outlining the gas to shore project and what 470 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 3: it will bring to our country. 471 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 2: That's Guyana's President Irfan Ali announcing a new project, one 472 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 2: that's separate from the offshore drilling and governed by different 473 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 2: contracts and arrangements entirely the gas to energy project. Now, 474 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 2: remember managing gas has been something of a problem for 475 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 2: the oil companies since the beginning of their production in Guyana. 476 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 2: It's a waste product they're supposed to be managing. Up 477 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 2: until late twenty twenty two, that mostly meant burning it 478 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 2: off what's called called flaring. But now that they've redesigned 479 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 2: their gas compressor, Excellon says it's back to reinjecting the 480 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 2: gas underground. However, the company has also repositioned gas from 481 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 2: a byproduct to another revenue stream. Now it's being presented 482 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 2: as a huge gift to Guyana. 483 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 3: The gas in this phase comes to the government and 484 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 3: people of Ghana free of costs, free of costs. 485 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 2: And as both oil companies and even some large environmental 486 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 2: groups have done all over the world, the gas is 487 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 2: being presented as a bridge to energy transition, a key 488 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 2: part of the President's low carbon development strategy. 489 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 3: We are taking the issue of environment and climate seriously. 490 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 3: Natural gas is far less polluting than fossil fuel and 491 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 3: a supply of energy, so this project also is part 492 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 3: of our climate Resilien's plan structural transformation. This project allows 493 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 3: us to have structural transformation. 494 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 2: And now it's time to talk about pultering again. Because, 495 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 2: of course, if your problem is methane emissions, it's helpful 496 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 2: to focus everyone's attention on carbon emissions. And it's true. 497 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 2: Gas does emit less CO two than coal or oil, 498 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 2: but it emits a whole lot of methane, which is 499 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 2: a greenhouse gas that's about eighty times more potent than 500 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 2: CO two over twenty years. And methane isn't just released 501 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 2: when people burn gas. It's emitted all along the way, 502 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 2: when it's extracted, when it's refined, when it's transported, and 503 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 2: when it's burnt. The industry refers to this as methane leaks, 504 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,959 Speaker 2: which sounds like an accident oopsie, But studies are piling 505 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 2: up that show it's just par for the course when 506 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 2: you're using gas for energy. In the past decade, scientists 507 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 2: have discovered not only that all of our existing gas 508 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 2: infrastructure emits a lot more methane than anyone previously thought, 509 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 2: and the whole lot more than the industry has ever admitted, 510 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 2: but also that it's worse for the atmosphere. It's also 511 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 2: really short lived, which is good news. That means if 512 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 2: we could dramatically reduce methane emissions now, it would buy 513 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 2: us some time to reduce all of the other greenhouse 514 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 2: gas emissions. But instead of doing any of those things, 515 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 2: the industry is pushing the world in the opposite direction, 516 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 2: most recently using the shortage of gas in Europe caused 517 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 2: by Russia's invasion of Ukraine as justification to lock in 518 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 2: gas for decades. Gas often gets talked about as being 519 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 2: a bridge to renewable energy, something we can just use 520 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 2: until there's enough renewables on the grid, or that can 521 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 2: help to stabilize solar and wind sources. But what we've 522 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,320 Speaker 2: seen in reality over the past twenty years is gas 523 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 2: being baked in as the dominant energy source. It's a 524 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 2: bridge to nowhere. And on top of all that, in Guyana, 525 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 2: there's the fact that there's actually a lot more gas 526 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 2: being produced than the country could ever possibly use for energy. 527 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 2: The fifty million cubic feet of gas that they're bringing 528 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 2: we only need for our electricity. 529 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 4: We only need about thirty. 530 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 2: But that's the first phase fifty. 531 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 3: They're going to be bringing one hundred and twenty million. 532 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 2: So it's four times what you actually use. 533 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 4: And they are consistent, well, we need to do something 534 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 4: with the gas, because. 535 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 6: If we don't do anything with the gas, then. 536 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 4: Eggxon would have no choice. 537 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 2: But to flare it. That's our story next time Light 538 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 2: Sweet Crude is a Drilled and Damages co production. Both 539 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 2: shows are Critical Frequency originals. Our editor and senior producer 540 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 2: is Sarah Ventry. Sound design, mixing and mastering by Martin 541 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 2: saltz Ostwick, Our fact checker is Anna Poujel Mazzini, and 542 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 2: our first amendment attorney is James Wheaton. The show is 543 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 2: reported and written by me Amy Westerveldt, additional reporting by 544 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 2: Keanna Wilberg in Guyana and Antonio Juhas in DC. We 545 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 2: had additional assistants in Guyana from Jamal Thomas, Salvador Deakerre's 546 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 2: Wilderness Explorers and the staff at Kaiman House. Special thanks 547 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,879 Speaker 2: to Michael McCrystal for his help as well. Our theme 548 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 2: song is Bird in the Hand by Foreknown sing, A 549 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 2: simple song was originally written by Sly and the Family Stone. 550 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 2: It's performed in this episode by the Young Ones of Guyana, 551 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:47,320 Speaker 2: licensed by BME Music. Additional music by Martin zaltz Ostwick. 552 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 2: Our artwork is by Matt Fleming. Marketing is handled by 553 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 2: the Great Maggie Taylor pr and Media outreach by the 554 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 2: wonderful folks at Tink Media, Lauren Passel, Ariel Nissenblatt, and 555 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 2: Devin Andrade. The show is supported in part by generous 556 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,880 Speaker 2: grants from the Doc Society, File Foundation, the William Collins 557 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 2: Kohler Foundation, and you are listeners. If you would like 558 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 2: to support our work, you can sign up for our 559 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 2: newsletter at drilled podcast dot com. You can also access 560 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 2: transcripts of the show there and additional information. Paid subscribers 561 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 2: also get access to ad free episodes, early releases, and 562 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 2: bonus content. It also really helps us if you would 563 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 2: please rate or review the podcast wherever you're listening and 564 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,359 Speaker 2: share it with friends. Thanks for listening, and we'll see 565 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 2: you next time.