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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to a brand new episode of

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Speaker 1: You Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat and I

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Speaker 1: am the host. Welcome everybody, and welcome to people who

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Speaker 1: are new. Glad you're here. Like the usual, I like

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Speaker 1: to give a little disclaimer at the top of every

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Speaker 1: episode that although I am a therapist and we're talking

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Speaker 1: about some mental health things, um and things that you

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Speaker 1: might talk about in therapy, this podcast does not serve

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Speaker 1: as a replacement for mental health services or a substitute

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Speaker 1: for actual therapy. But it might help you get to

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Speaker 1: where you need to go. It might help, um you

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Speaker 1: find a therapist or find something you want to actually

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Speaker 1: go to therapy forre so um, or it might not

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Speaker 1: do any of those things, and you might just like

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Speaker 1: this podcast. That's also fine. Anyway, now that we have

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Speaker 1: that out of the way, I am pretty excited about

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Speaker 1: I feel like I say that all the time, which

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Speaker 1: I do because I am excited a lot about the

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Speaker 1: episodes that I put out. But I'm specifically excited about

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Speaker 1: this episode slash episodes because I had my friend Tara

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Speaker 1: Booker here and I met her and we talked about

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Speaker 1: this in the episode. So I won't go too long

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Speaker 1: winded into it. But I met her working at a

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Speaker 1: treatment center years ago when I was an intern, and

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Speaker 1: then I got a job there, and so I've known

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Speaker 1: her for a really long time. I've known her for

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Speaker 1: almost the entirety of my career as a therapist, and

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Speaker 1: she's pretty good at what she does. She has been

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Speaker 1: on the podcast before. UM, we've talked about spirituality together,

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Speaker 1: We've talked about trauma in general together. We've talked about

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Speaker 1: a couple of things, and we started talking about stuff

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Speaker 1: that we could do together more in ways that she

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Speaker 1: could actually help on the podcast more often, because she

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Speaker 1: does have one away with words when it comes to

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Speaker 1: mental health and therapy in general. And also she's an

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Speaker 1: expert expert therapist, like she's very good and anyway, so

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Speaker 1: she came over to record a couple episodes about a

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Speaker 1: couple of different things and what happened, which eventually you'll

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Speaker 1: hear it happen live on the on the podcast. UM,

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Speaker 1: I think in not this episode, but another one is

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Speaker 1: we decided that there is so much in what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about that it actually deserves to be kind of

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Speaker 1: a mini series. And what we do in this episode

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Speaker 1: and what we're going to continue to do is we

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Speaker 1: talk about some terms, some that just have to do

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Speaker 1: with mental health and some that are actual clinical terms.

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Speaker 1: We talk about them, we talk about kind of how

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Speaker 1: they've been misconstrued in popular culture and what they really

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Speaker 1: might mean. And it's a way for us to help

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Speaker 1: kind of give you guys more language to describe the

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Speaker 1: experiences that you're going through or having or seen. So

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Speaker 1: we don't use words that mean one thing for blink,

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Speaker 1: get statements or or experiences that actually means something else.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm really excited because there's a ton of

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Speaker 1: stuff that we can talk about. And the reason that

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Speaker 1: we're actually going to make this into a series is

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Speaker 1: in the second episode we were actually recording together, I

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Speaker 1: felt like I was like rushing it because I wanted

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Speaker 1: to get through a couple of things, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: wait a second, I don't really want to rush this,

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Speaker 1: because rushing this is what has got us kind of

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Speaker 1: in this place in the first place, this place where

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Speaker 1: we're not really clear on what things mean, but we

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Speaker 1: kind of might know enough. So we're just going to

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Speaker 1: use this word, or we're gonna um categorize this as this,

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Speaker 1: or we're not going to care that much about the

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Speaker 1: real meaning of this word, because it kind of fits

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Speaker 1: for this, and there's some harm being done to other people,

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Speaker 1: and there's some harm being done, I think, to ourselves

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Speaker 1: because we don't actually know what we're experiencing. So I'm

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Speaker 1: excited because this is really a series about empowering us

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Speaker 1: and giving us more language and more understanding about things

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Speaker 1: that we might be going through or our friends and

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Speaker 1: neighbors might be going through. So all that to let

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Speaker 1: you know that this is not just the beginning or

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Speaker 1: the only episode I have with Tara. This is actually

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Speaker 1: the beginning of um many episodes that I am going

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Speaker 1: to be having with her in the next couple of

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Speaker 1: weeks slash months. So I hope you like her, because

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Speaker 1: she will be back and she'll be back again. And

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Speaker 1: I just want to say thank you Tara for doing this,

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Speaker 1: because she does this because she loves actually being helpful,

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Speaker 1: which is really nice coming from a therapist, because that's

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Speaker 1: kind of our job is to be helpful in some way.

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Speaker 1: So thank you for taking the time to do this,

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Speaker 1: and thank you for being just like so brilliant at

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Speaker 1: what you you do and having such good language and

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Speaker 1: just away with explaining and expressing things that I know

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Speaker 1: I can get tripped up with because I get a

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Speaker 1: little bit anxious. Even on this podcast, even though it's

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Speaker 1: my own I get anxious kind of talking about certain

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Speaker 1: things because I want to make sure that I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: saying what I mean um and meaning what I say,

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Speaker 1: And sometimes this stuff is just a little bit tricky

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Speaker 1: and convoluted and very nuanced. So I hope you like this, Tara,

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being here and being a part of this,

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Speaker 1: and get excited for more conversations like this one with Tara.

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Speaker 1: If you have any questions, concerns, thoughts, feedback, you can

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Speaker 1: send up to me Catherine You Need Therapy podcast dot com.

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Speaker 1: But for now, I hope you just dive into this

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Speaker 1: episode and learn something because I know that I learned

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Speaker 1: something talking to Tara this day. So here to my

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Speaker 1: conversation with Tara Booker. All right, guys, welcome back to

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Speaker 1: a new episode of You Need Therapy Podcast. I have

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Speaker 1: a what do we call this your third time there?

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Speaker 1: Maybe fourth time, because you've been on some couch talks.

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Speaker 1: I have a repeating guest. You might be my most

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Speaker 1: frequent guest. I can't wait to see what I get

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Speaker 1: for I haven't thought about that yet. But terror Booker

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Speaker 1: is here, and she is somebody that I met. If

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Speaker 1: you haven't heard the episodes with her before we met,

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Speaker 1: but this beyond two thou so, yeah, that's six seven,

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Speaker 1: eight years ago. Okay, So she's also a licensed therapist.

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Speaker 1: Year background is clinical social work, which really isn't that different.

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Speaker 1: We want to literally do the same thing. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: she's here because I want to talk about and you

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Speaker 1: guys have heard me talk about this kind of stuff before,

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Speaker 1: but now it's nice to be here with another therapist

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Speaker 1: talking about this and getting her perspective. But we're going

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Speaker 1: to have a couple of conversations about some common misconceptions

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Speaker 1: in the mental health world. And like I've discussed before,

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Speaker 1: I think because we have more access to information, which

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Speaker 1: is a great thing, but we have more ways of

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Speaker 1: getting information out, whether that's through social media or podcasts

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Speaker 1: like this one, or there's more people writing books. It's

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Speaker 1: just we're trying to kind of reduce the stigma that

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Speaker 1: has been connected to mental health. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: because we're getting more information and it's more I think,

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Speaker 1: from my perspective, generalized and oversimplified, we get a little confused,

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Speaker 1: and that is for the most part, nobody's malicious fault.

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Speaker 1: It's just something that happens. And so we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about a couple of different things. Um, and then

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Speaker 1: we're going to actually break this into two parts. So

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Speaker 1: we're gonna do two of the things, which might end

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Speaker 1: up being like a lot of things under the things.

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Speaker 1: And then, UM, we're just gonna give you more information

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Speaker 1: and more language that might help you more accurately understand

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Speaker 1: or describe the things that you've been through, whether you

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Speaker 1: see or that your family and friends go through. Let's

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Speaker 1: do it. I want the audience to be like, Okay, cool,

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Speaker 1: we're going to fill in. Okay. So the first thing

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about, which is very overarching, is the

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Speaker 1: reality of it abuses, whether that's emotional abuse or psychological

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Speaker 1: abuse or spiritual abuse. I think I hear that word,

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Speaker 1: and I think I use that word a lot, and

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Speaker 1: you know, sometimes I might use it in the wrong way,

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Speaker 1: but I hear that word more than I've ever heard

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Speaker 1: that word. I feel like it used to be something

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Speaker 1: that and not to say this doesn't still happen, but

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Speaker 1: it used to be something that people didn't want to

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Speaker 1: use that word, and it was like, no, that's my

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Speaker 1: experience as a therapist. I think actually in the beginning,

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Speaker 1: we would work with clients and in my head a bit,

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Speaker 1: oh wow, this person has gone through a lot of abuse,

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Speaker 1: and that word was not wanted in that person's vocabulary.

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Speaker 1: But now I feel like I see, not even just

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Speaker 1: with my clients, it's more just in the world, every

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Speaker 1: other description of not great behavior is abusive. And so

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Speaker 1: I want to hear you and hear your thoughts on

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Speaker 1: how you've seen that kind of like abuse, the word

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Speaker 1: kind of transform in the past couple of years, and

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Speaker 1: then we can dive into like, okay, so what's abuse,

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Speaker 1: and then if it's not abuse, what is it? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's I mean this obviously we talked about this, but

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Speaker 1: it's such a delicate topic, right because I think what

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Speaker 1: happens with all things that we are like under educated,

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Speaker 1: or are neglecting as a culture, or are ignoring and

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Speaker 1: non addressing, like mental health has been for a long

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Speaker 1: time in Western society, then we do an overcorrection, We

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Speaker 1: like swing to the other end of the pendulum with

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Speaker 1: most things. Right, So it's like whatever rights issues that

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Speaker 1: were you know, denied it's like I'm swinging way over

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Speaker 1: here to where, well, specifically mental health, Like we didn't

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Speaker 1: talk about it. It was something that was taboo, stigmatized,

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Speaker 1: a bad thing or not a real thing, or all

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Speaker 1: the things that people would use. And then we swing

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Speaker 1: to the other side. People are like, no, it's real.

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Speaker 1: I'm making a stand. And I feel that's similar, like

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Speaker 1: abuse goes in that category where we didn't talk about

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Speaker 1: abuse of things people in power and people who were

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Speaker 1: oppressed and victimized, very neglected, and most population to experience

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Speaker 1: that because they're vulnerable populations, their marginalized populations for the

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Speaker 1: most part, you know, people of color, women, poor, impoverished people.

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Speaker 1: So people aren't voicing those people's issues. And so it's

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Speaker 1: like we swing to the other side and say everything,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is abuse. We're calling it abuse. This

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Speaker 1: is an issue, this is a problem, this is a problem.

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Speaker 1: That's a good way of describing it and painting the picture.

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Speaker 1: Because I was listening to talk about this podcast all

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Speaker 1: the time, the Man Enough podcast. I was listening to

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Speaker 1: the it's actually I think maybe this isn't like the

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Speaker 1: intro to their new season or their like episode intro,

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Speaker 1: but they talk about how somebody. The whole podcast is

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Speaker 1: about like how to like equality and undefining this like

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Speaker 1: very strange masculine, like this is the whatever. So one

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Speaker 1: of the hosts says, like, I think women are better,

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Speaker 1: and one of the other hosts says, well, no, that's

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Speaker 1: still not equality. That's not really what we're fighting for.

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Speaker 1: That's not really what we're working for. Going that, okay,

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Speaker 1: men are now under women does not fix the problem

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Speaker 1: that women feel like they're less than compared to men.

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Speaker 1: And that's kind of like the same thing. It's like

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Speaker 1: you're swinging this pendulum and it's like, wait a second,

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Speaker 1: we needed to put that kind of in the center.

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Speaker 1: We don't need to be on um one side or

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Speaker 1: the other. So where mental health was like taboo, now

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Speaker 1: it's like if you go to therapy, you just better

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Speaker 1: wear a sign on your forehead that says I go

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Speaker 1: to therapy, when like you could. But that doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: that that you have to or you need to. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think that is actually a natural part of change.

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Speaker 1: People who get sober, for instance, right, it's like they'se

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Speaker 1: change their whole world around. I. I can't do any

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Speaker 1: of these things. I live in this type box and

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Speaker 1: then they find their way to a middle as you

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Speaker 1: get better, and like, I think all change has to

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Speaker 1: kind of happen that way, where we have to swing

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Speaker 1: really hard out of something dysfunctional to kind of get

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Speaker 1: it out of our system and to normalize it. And

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Speaker 1: then hopefully this is a conversation because we've been a

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Speaker 1: few years in I like mental health is way more

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Speaker 1: open that we are, even us therapists starting to see

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Speaker 1: we need to come back to the middle and so

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Speaker 1: we can hopefully be a part of like Okay, yes,

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Speaker 1: now we're open about it, and let's put it in

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Speaker 1: its right place and its right size culturally, so okay,

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Speaker 1: the wrong way. Yeah, Okay, listen up if you've been

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Speaker 1: having these conversations with me too about when it comes

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Speaker 1: to like recovery, specifically in disorder recovery, because there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of confusion with that right now too, because the

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Speaker 1: anti diet culture all that movement has become very very

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Speaker 1: loud where it's also swinging the other way and it's

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Speaker 1: confusing people who are in their own recovery process that

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Speaker 1: then once they get in that for a while and

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Speaker 1: they're like, okay, wait a second, now I don't know,

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Speaker 1: if I'm making decisions because I have to be anti

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Speaker 1: diet culture, if I'm making decisions because I'm listening to

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Speaker 1: my body. And that's the same thing. When you're going

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Speaker 1: through eating disorder recovery. You have to like take out

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Speaker 1: a lot of parts of your life that somebody who

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Speaker 1: is just like moving along with their life who doesn't

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Speaker 1: have disordered eating or eating disorder doesn't have to do.

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Speaker 1: But once you kind of recalibrate that, then you get

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Speaker 1: to come back into this niddle ground. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's the part that we don't talk about is that, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we do this extreme thing, like think about like somebody

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Speaker 1: going to treatment, to whether it's for anything, you got

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Speaker 1: to treatment. You are cutting out so many things, like

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Speaker 1: socially just like you're not going to work, like you're

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Speaker 1: you're not many things out of your life. You aren't

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Speaker 1: supposed to live that way forever, but you need a

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Speaker 1: period of time where you can like clear up some

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Speaker 1: thing so then you can actually reintroduce the parts that

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Speaker 1: you want to reintroduce. So I think this is the

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Speaker 1: same thing of like we're opening up this box that

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Speaker 1: like abuse is something we should talk about. Abuse is

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Speaker 1: something we need to start to recognize because I think

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Speaker 1: for a long time, if it wasn't somebody when it

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Speaker 1: comes to physical abuse, if it wasn't or any abuse,

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Speaker 1: actually physical abuse was the only real abuse. And if

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Speaker 1: somebody wasn't pushing you down a flight of stairs and

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Speaker 1: giving you like broken bones, then like it's not that

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Speaker 1: bit of a deal, which is like feels ichy and

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Speaker 1: my body to even say that. But now we've kind

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Speaker 1: of opened up this box and now we need to

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Speaker 1: kind of bring it back into that middle ground, not

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Speaker 1: saying that some of the things people are experiencing aren't

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Speaker 1: bad or harmful, but it might not go into that

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Speaker 1: category of this is abusive behavior. Yeah, because the language

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Speaker 1: does matter. I mean, it's really all we have. It's

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Speaker 1: like one of our primary methods of like living in

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Speaker 1: the world. So I'm gonna be careful in the way

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Speaker 1: I say this, so I want you guys to hear

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Speaker 1: what I am trying to say. But language does matter,

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Speaker 1: and when we categorize human beings as abusive, we can't

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Speaker 1: really take that back because somebody's heard it, and so

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Speaker 1: not that I am trying to like victim blame or

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Speaker 1: like protect an abuser by any means, but it always

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Speaker 1: brings me back to that West Elm guy. What was

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Speaker 1: his name? I didn't get too deep into it, but

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Speaker 1: there's this jerk guy. I don't know too much, but like,

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Speaker 1: I think he was just being kind of like a uh,

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Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, douche bag to a

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Speaker 1: lot of people on like dating apps and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: And I'm saying this not knowing the whole story. So

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Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, somebody please correct me. But he got

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Speaker 1: categorized as and he became a huge thing. He was

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Speaker 1: all over like different platforms as this like narcissist, abuser

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Speaker 1: kind of person. And I read one article about it

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Speaker 1: and she was like, I think this guy was just

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Speaker 1: like a jerk, Like he was not like he didn't

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Speaker 1: have good intentions he x y Z. But now he

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Speaker 1: is literally labeled as this person with a personality disorder

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Speaker 1: and that's out there and people. Caleb did I say

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Speaker 1: that without the name? I said, I think what's west Elm?

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Speaker 1: Caleb was the story, but I used as an example

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Speaker 1: because I think that because we have a lack of language,

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Speaker 1: we want to be able to say and talk about

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Speaker 1: our experience and speak up for ourselves. And at same

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Speaker 1: time we have to be careful because it's affecting a

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Speaker 1: lot of people's lives. Yeah, I think, yeah, we could

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Speaker 1: talk about this forever. But another frame is like, if

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Speaker 1: we're just beginning to really understand educate and have it

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Speaker 1: as like a broader part of cultural awareness mental health,

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Speaker 1: then we're like babies, you know, like we're in elementary school,

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Speaker 1: and so our language has been representative of that. You know,

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Speaker 1: you think about the language that you learn to describe

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Speaker 1: certain things when you're like a smaller child versus it

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Speaker 1: grows and it expands, it gets more detailed and more specific,

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Speaker 1: But a child brain can't really differentiate all those things

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Speaker 1: at the beginning. You know. It's like that was main

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Speaker 1: is what you say when you're like very small, And

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Speaker 1: then you might say, well, you know that was selfish

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Speaker 1: or that you start to get more specific, and kids

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Speaker 1: can do that when they get older. So I just

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Speaker 1: think like we are at the beginning stage of like

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Speaker 1: it really being a known educational awareness sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna we're gonna grow. Okay, so let's talk

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Speaker 1: about this just in a more basic tense. Can you

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Speaker 1: tell us this doesn't have to be a exact like definition,

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Speaker 1: but I do want to hear from your perspective, how

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Speaker 1: do you differentiate between abusive behavior? And then I don't

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Speaker 1: want to like give away the other words yet or

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Speaker 1: something else. Sure, sure, well, I did some reading or

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Speaker 1: looked at some little notes about it, because it's kind

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Speaker 1: of can be an ambiguous thing to try to nail down.

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Speaker 1: And I think that is part of the struggle of

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Speaker 1: talking about it and why it can get kind of

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Speaker 1: co opted or misused or thrown around is because it

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Speaker 1: isn't always super specific. You named things like physical abuse

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Speaker 1: sexual abuse, which can get hairy, but also those are

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Speaker 1: categories that can feel a little bit easier to define,

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Speaker 1: so tangible they're like behavioral, whereas spiritual, emotional psychological are

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Speaker 1: not so specific to every time someone punches you in

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Speaker 1: the face, like that's physically abuses. We know that, we

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Speaker 1: know it, we get it. We can like put a

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Speaker 1: picture on that definition of a behavior that works pretty

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Speaker 1: much every time. I mean, I guess unless you're are boxing,

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Speaker 1: it's not abuse, but there's a context. We get it.

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Speaker 1: But things like emotional, psychological, spiritual, like they get kind

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Speaker 1: of confusing. But I think some of the things that

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Speaker 1: might come up for me, are like an explit explicit

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Speaker 1: manipulation of power of resource, Like if someone has a

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Speaker 1: different kind of resource than you, maybe that's literally a

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Speaker 1: physical They're bigger than you, they're stronger than you, um,

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Speaker 1: they make more money than you. They're in a cultural

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Speaker 1: position that's higher than you, like a male versus a woman,

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Speaker 1: or a boss versus an employee, a parent versus a child,

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Speaker 1: those different kind of advantages or privileges or resources, and

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Speaker 1: they are specifically using those kind of resources to cause

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Speaker 1: harm to I think that's a person to cause harm

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Speaker 1: because I think about like the word manipulation and the

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Speaker 1: word manipulate, like I can manipulate somebody, But am I

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Speaker 1: being abusive? Maybe not? And I even as like a therapist,

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Speaker 1: there could be an argument for sometimes I have an

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Speaker 1: idea of where I want to go with somebody, but

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Speaker 1: I'm going to kind of like scaffold them there and

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Speaker 1: and kind of like create a process that lets them

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Speaker 1: get there on their own. And yeah, would I be

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Speaker 1: manipulating the experience work because I have a knowledge or

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Speaker 1: or expertise or something like that, But in no way

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Speaker 1: am I doing that in order to control the person

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Speaker 1: long term? Right? So like, I'm actually trying to give

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Speaker 1: them more freedom, and I'm not trying to harm them.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to help them. So I think that where

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Speaker 1: somebody's coming from is really important. Now, if you're good

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Speaker 1: at manipulating, you can manipulate somebody's experience of being manipulated.

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Speaker 1: So you're right, it gets really hairy. But I think

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Speaker 1: it's important to look at, like what is the gain

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Speaker 1: of the person who is doing the manipulation. I get

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Speaker 1: no in my own life gain from a client, getting

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Speaker 1: to ex point, like that's that gain is for them

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Speaker 1: versus if I am in a position of power in

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Speaker 1: a church leadership role, and I might gain I've never

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Speaker 1: been in this role, but like I might gain a

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Speaker 1: larger following that might lead to money or notoriety, which

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Speaker 1: might lead to more avenues for me to have a

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Speaker 1: certain agenda that I want, Like think about politically, like, um,

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Speaker 1: I've might be pushing a certain agenda to get certain things,

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Speaker 1: and those feel very different to me. I think about

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Speaker 1: words like abuse are health like if we're putting it

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Speaker 1: next to addiction, so people um misuse and unhealthy relationships

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Speaker 1: with substances or with food or right, but people are

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Speaker 1: very very cautious to call those things an addiction unless

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Speaker 1: they are really high level disruptive to their lives. So

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Speaker 1: I think even abuse, you would want to look at

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Speaker 1: the consequences of the abuse that's happening to you. What's happened?

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Speaker 1: You know, what are the impacts on my life? Am

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Speaker 1: I literally not pursuing things that are good for me

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Speaker 1: or healthy for me? Am I isolated from my community,

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Speaker 1: from my friends, from my family? Have I abandoned jobs

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Speaker 1: and don't have my own financial kind of independence or security?

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Speaker 1: Am I becoming depressed? You know? Have I needed to

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Speaker 1: seek mental health, treat meant or medication or so? I

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Speaker 1: think you can look at like the severity of the

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00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 1: impact on the person who's being abused, and that would

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Speaker 1: really start to qualify this is abuse, you know what.

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Speaker 1: I like that descriptor because I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people don't want to classify their behaviors when it comes

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Speaker 1: to substances like that as abuse at all, and so

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00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 1: they might say like, oh, no, that's not abuse, But

402
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Speaker 1: then like, wait is saying it is affecting X y Z. Yeah.

403
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 1: I just like the way that that is actually giving

404
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 1: you more what's the word responsibility? Yeah, that's the difference, right,

405
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 1: And this is where again with all sensitivity, but we're humans,

406
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Speaker 1: and it might feel a little bit easier to name

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Speaker 1: a person as abusive instead of my relationship with a

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00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 1: substance abusive, because then who's the culprit? Oh my god,

409
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Speaker 1: the other person feels like the culprit instead of me,

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Speaker 1: And I'm only one who can change my relationship with

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00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 1: the substance, you know, like that's not a living, breathing thing,

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Speaker 1: so it feels a lot harder to reckon with that. Yeah,

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00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 1: that's yeah, that's a whole responsibility. And we've even talked

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Speaker 1: about having a conversation on here about just like being

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Speaker 1: a victim, and like, I think that I'm not gonna

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00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 1: We're not gonna go down this rabbit hole. But I

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Speaker 1: have to say this because it's just on my head

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Speaker 1: and I cannot. We think that we don't want to

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Speaker 1: be victims, and I think depending everybody has their own experience,

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Speaker 1: but there is also this large experience of we don't

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Speaker 1: want to be called victims. But it's actually feels nice

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00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 1: in certain situations to play a victim role because the

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Speaker 1: responsibility is then taken away from us. I say that

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Speaker 1: with many grains of salt, because a lot of people

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00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 1: do become victims and they don't choose that at all,

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Speaker 1: And it's actually really hard for some people to acknowledge

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00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 1: that they've been a victim of something. But it's interesting

428
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 1: of like what kind of victimhood do we want? I

429
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Speaker 1: don't want to be a victim of X y Z,

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Speaker 1: but I will play this role of a victim all

431
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: day long in my life. So that's a whole another podcast.

432
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 1: But it goes with responsibility. So okay, if we're now

433
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 1: identifying that there's more to it than just this is

434
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 1: not good, so now it's abuse or this is manipulative,

435
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: so now it's abuse. Lying right, we just go we

436
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: pocket them all and makes a critical remark to me,

437
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,199
Speaker 1: that's abuse, Like, we can't go that far in generalization.

438
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 1: That's not that's not really sifting things out well enough.

439
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 1: We'll think about like even the responsibility of a UM

440
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 1: supervisor or boss or I mean again, leader, there still

441
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 1: needs to be an ability to have critical conversations or

442
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 1: rather conversations with criticism in them. We need to be

443
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 1: able to give feedback. We need to be able to express, hey,

444
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,439
Speaker 1: this was not right, this is not okay, and we

445
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: need to be able to see that as the people

446
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 1: that might have a leader above us. But a lot

447
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 1: of times I think, and maybe it is twofold, has

448
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: to do with us not being properly trained on how

449
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: to give feedback and also trained on how to receive feedback.

450
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: Because feedback a lot of times, if it is like

451
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: criticism of some sort, which is doesn't mean it's bad,

452
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: it feels icky, at least it does to me. And

453
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 1: if I can disregard somebody's critical feedback of me by

454
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: the way that they gave it to me and say

455
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 1: that was manipulative or abusive or whatever, again, it takes

456
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: the responsibility for me to actually look at my behavior

457
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: and and my work and I'm just like, oh, I

458
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: get to disregard that. That's not to say that the

459
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: person gave the criticism to you. Well, so there's other

460
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: ways to say, Hey, my boss might not be abusive,

461
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 1: but maybe he was this, or maybe she was this,

462
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: or maybe the way she gave me the feedback was this,

463
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 1: And so I want to kind of talk about the

464
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 1: other ways we can talk about that. And let's say

465
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,239
Speaker 1: you have a relationship and it could be any kind

466
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: of relationship, romantic, any kind of family relationship, a boss,

467
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: and those relationships maybe are super unhealthy. Unhealth doesn't have

468
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: to equal abusive, it can be other things. So I

469
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: want to talk about those other things that we can

470
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: kind of use to describe things. Yeah, so a great

471
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: word is dysfunctional or harmful. Like someone maybe said something

472
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 1: to me that felt harmful. Maybe even the boss said

473
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,959
Speaker 1: it in a really crappy way, you know, maybe they

474
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: were abrupt and didn't offer like a little compliment sandwich

475
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: on the other side of it, or maybe they said

476
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: it with some judgmental words. Like the specific words that

477
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 1: they use were like judgmental towards my character, like you've

478
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: been really lazy about X projects. And that's not super

479
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: constructive feedback, because if you were a boss, you would

480
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 1: need to name what that means. You would want to

481
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: talk about, like, hey, you have not turned X and

482
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: on time this many times and if you continue to

483
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: behave that way, then you're not gonna be able to

484
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 1: work here. Like that might not feel good to hear.

485
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: But also if someone calls me lazy, I might say

486
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: that's harmful. I'm not a lazy person, you know, that's

487
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: not who I am that's an assaulting of my character.

488
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: So again, like that would be the difference between like

489
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,479
Speaker 1: a not healthy, harmful, or dysfunctional way of communicating something

490
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: to someone that wasn't versus abusive. Would be like I

491
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: did turn everything out on time, and my boss came

492
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: to me and says, if you don't do X, Y

493
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 1: and Z by the end of the week, then you're fired.

494
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: And that's not a part of my job description. And

495
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: that's not like those are abusive natures where I'm threatening

496
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: your livelihood and it's not in the nature of our

497
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: agreed upon like about like using any kind of black mail,

498
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 1: or like holding things above your head, or like the

499
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,719
Speaker 1: words threatening and putting you in a place where like

500
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: you don't actually get to even if you did everything correctly,

501
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 1: you can't win. If you disagree with them, you can't win.

502
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 1: If you agree with them, you can't win. That feels

503
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: very different asking you to basically to meet standards that

504
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 1: are not in the contract of the like the natural

505
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: original contract of the relationship. You also used the word

506
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: when we're talking earlier, like you can be injured in

507
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: a relationship, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you were

508
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: a victim of abuse. And I don't mean that in

509
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: the physical way, of course. So can you talk about

510
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 1: like an emotional spiritual injury? Yeah, I think you know,

511
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,479
Speaker 1: people can like here's a really common went like ghosting someone.

512
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Yes, you like if you're friends or

513
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: romantic interest. If you were someone was talking to you

514
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden they didn't they stopped,

515
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: they didn't show up, they didn't answer your text. This

516
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: is not respectful way to treat you beings. I agree

517
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: with that. I think if we're really respecting ble as people,

518
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: than we could just say what we need to say

519
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: and be upfront and say, hey, I'm not interested in

520
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: continuing to talk to you for that may be the

521
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: end of the sentence. You might give some reasons. Who

522
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: knows is disrespectful. It's certainly hurts. It injures my feelings,

523
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: my sense of dignity as a human being, that I

524
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: wasn't honored or thought of to be treated in a

525
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: more respectful way. And you know, just piecing out is

526
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: not necessarily an abuse that I'm oppressed by that I

527
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: now have like significant loss to to my needs being

528
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: able to be met, to the resources that I need

529
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,479
Speaker 1: to have access to in my life. So it's a

530
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: crappy way to behave and it's also not like think

531
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: about too like in a an emotional, psychologically, or spiritually

532
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: abusive experience, and I and more, my head is going

533
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: right now I'm thinking about like occult. My belief system

534
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: is slowly being changed about myself, my abilities, my capabilities,

535
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: and the same with that example with the boss of like,

536
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: then I'm going to constantly being doing like I can

537
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: never do anything right, Like I'm gonna eventually think, well,

538
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: this is my fault. He said, he told me exactly

539
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: what I need to do and I didn't do it correctly,

540
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,479
Speaker 1: and like because they're so convincing and what they're saying,

541
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: I told you to do this, even though like you're like,

542
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: I didn't think that you said to do that, but

543
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: I guess you did because you're so convincing of it.

544
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: And there's not in writing anywhere, but in an abusive

545
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: relationship like that, when you're in it, when you actually

546
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: really are in and you're feeling the effects of it,

547
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: you do change the way you think about yourself, your value,

548
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: your worth, you mentioning like my resources and my ability

549
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: to get my needs met well, like in an abusive

550
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: relationship like that. I think it's very confusing for people

551
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: who have never been in one of those. But a

552
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: lot of times you stay in them because there's that

553
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: part that's like, well, if I leave this, and I

554
00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: won't be able to get my needs met elsewhere. Think

555
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: about spiritual if you leave a spiritual group, like there

556
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: might be um, these beliefs that you're now holding onto

557
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: that if you do X, y Z, your higher power

558
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: will you'll be punished in some way because of that,

559
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: whether you're gonna be paid pain for that now or

560
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: in your afterlife. And so that's very different than somebody

561
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: being a jerk or somebody displaying poor behavior towards you,

562
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: or somebody again being a mean feels like not a

563
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: good enough word, but like yeah, like somebody being like

564
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: super mean and hurting your feelings and maybe having you

565
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: question I'm never I'm never enough or I'm not good

566
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: enough for this person. But a lot of times that

567
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: in dating circles has more to do with our just

568
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: own belief system outside these people. Yeah, what the baggage,

569
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: for lack of better word, that I brought into this

570
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: versus what I picked up all was in it, and

571
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: we have a responsibility. And I did do a whole

572
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: episode on cults, and I found it fascinating because I

573
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: did a deep dive on brainwashing and whether it's a

574
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: real thing, and there's no way to actually measure it,

575
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: so it's always going to be a question. And over

576
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: and over, I read like, it's so hard to really

577
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: actually hold onto the idea that we can be brainwashed,

578
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: because to be brainwashed, you have to have some desire

579
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: to believe what it is that you're in quotes choosing

580
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: to believe. And so if I come into a relationship

581
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 1: with a really damaged sense of self that believes that

582
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: to be good and to be worthy, I have to

583
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: have the approval of um, these kind of men, are

584
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: these kind of women or whatever I'm holding onto that

585
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: I have a desire to hold onto that belief for

586
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: whatever reason. Even I would call it an attachment more

587
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: than it's that's probably a better Yeah, totally, even are

588
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: like ikey weird beliefs. We talked about this too, this

589
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: secondary gain, there's something you get, even if it feels

590
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: weird to admit a lot of times when we're repeating

591
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: behaviors like that, or we're holding onto these or become

592
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: attached to these beliefs about ourselves. We get something out

593
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: of it, even if it's like doesn't really make logical sense. Yeah.

594
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: A good one to always I think that people can

595
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: understand really easily and that it's quick and easy is

596
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: if I'm getting critical criticism and that kind of treatment

597
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: from someone as a like natural part of the relationship,

598
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: I kind of I'm drawn to someone who like you know,

599
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: doesn't answer me, neglect that kind of thing, there's kind

600
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: of behaviors. Then if I was had a predisposition in

601
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: my attachment development to that's how I that's the only

602
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: attention I got was negative attention, then that's why might

603
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: I have an attachment to that sort of role that

604
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: sort of if I had an experience of not getting

605
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: you know, of a lot of neglect there, I am like,

606
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: that's how I know how to relate to people. That's

607
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: the role that I know how to play in relationships.

608
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: So I'm going to be with someone likely who isn't

609
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: very attentive and maybe ignores and forgets and doesn't show

610
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: up and doesn't answer, which, again, there's like a lot

611
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: of nuance in this because there could be both going

612
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: on to like, I have this part of me that's

613
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 1: attached to this belief system. And also maybe there are

614
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: people that are abusive that also find themselves abusing people

615
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,399
Speaker 1: with those types of attachments. So I say that just

616
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: so you guys know, we're not even saying this is

617
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: a this or this like you have to do a

618
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: lot of your own introspection, hopefully talking if you're experiencing

619
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: any of this stuff with somebody who can help you,

620
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: like a professional therapist, what have you. But really what

621
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 1: I want you guys to hear in all of this

622
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: is that there's more language that might help you more

623
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: accurately describe your experience. And there's a point to that,

624
00:34:53,800 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 1: and so why does that matter? We could go into

625
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: the abandoned mint word and then kind of answer that

626
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: on the back end of both, because I think it

627
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 1: would make sense of all of it. Okay, so you're

628
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: talking about, you know, calling it, calling it different things,

629
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: finding different language, and why something why we don't always

630
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: want to call certain harmful behaviors abuse, And it was

631
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: something we were talking about before, even in the victimization

632
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 1: and the roles and the ways we get into things

633
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: and what's the impact that it has on us. It

634
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: made me think about the abandonment word, and this comes up.

635
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: You and I think both work with adults only I

636
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: don't think either of us work with children. So this

637
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: is something we have probably more like of an encounter

638
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: specifically to this side of the issue than if people

639
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 1: were working with children. So you know, we'll hear clients

640
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: say something like so and so abandoned me, or I'm

641
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: afraid of being abandoned by my spouse or whoever I'm

642
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: in a relationship with my friend, and it's such a

643
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: important thing to start to break down for that person.

644
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: And similarly to I think using words like abuse abandonment,

645
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: it really puts the person who's on the other side

646
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: of the experience in a lower level position. It puts

647
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: you in the victim position. It puts you in the

648
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,240
Speaker 1: stuck place, It puts you in the powerless, helpless place.

649
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: If those words are accurate, there is a level of

650
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: reality and impact on the person experiencing them that's really

651
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:38,720
Speaker 1: really severe. If you have been abused by a partner

652
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 1: who was stronger than you physically and physically abused you

653
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 1: or sexually assaulted you, you were helpless. They had a

654
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: power over that they used against you to harm you.

655
00:36:54,080 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 1: If you were a child and your dad and mom

656
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: got a divorce and you saw your dad once a year,

657
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: you were abandoned by your father. He wasn't there to

658
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: give you the care that a father role. You're supposed

659
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: to have two parents, that's part of the deal, So

660
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,240
Speaker 1: you don't have one. You've a loss, you've been abandoned

661
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: in those needs that can only be met by one

662
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 1: of the two caregivers you were given is not going

663
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: to be met. So that's like a really big deal.

664
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: That's like a huge position to be put in, of helplessness,

665
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 1: of loss of I can't get myself what I need.

666
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 1: I can't, yeah, keep myself, I say, that's key, the helplessness, powerlessness.

667
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 1: I can't I don't have the ability to give myself

668
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 1: what I needed. That's right. And if we put our

669
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 1: like use words like I was abused or I was abandoned,

670
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 1: and we weren't actually completely at a loss for the

671
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 1: ability to get what we needed even amidst the injury.

672
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: You can have an injury amidst the ending of the relationship.

673
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: Then and if I could have gotten myself some of

674
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 1: the things I needed, if I still could you know,

675
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: provide finances, food, shelter for myself. If I could still

676
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: have friends or people that I could pick up the

677
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,720
Speaker 1: phone and call and utilize those things, that's really important

678
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: for me to be connected with those things. Those are

679
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: the things that will keep me afloat. And when we

680
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: put ourselves under a category of abandonment, then we start

681
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 1: to feel that, you know, it becomes a self fulfilling

682
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: prophecy of like, I don't I'm helpless. I can't care

683
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: for myself because I was dependent upon this person to

684
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: do that, and it creates a story of powerlessness and

685
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: helplessness when really you actually do have the ability to

686
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,439
Speaker 1: offer yourself or find it in some way what you need.

687
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: That whole thing that you just said is so important.

688
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 1: I think that's what I wanted to be expressed in

689
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: this because sometimes I do feel like, oh, I don't

690
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: want to invalidate somebody's experience, But it's not so much

691
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: about invalidating. Invalidating your experience is actually really invalidating to

692
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: you and your resources, your abilities, your relationships. When you

693
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: find yourself because of these words in a position where

694
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: you aren't actually in Yeah, okay, that's so important because

695
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: our goal as therapists empowerment, right, so people believe in themselves,

696
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: for people to find that their internal and external resources

697
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 1: to give themselves everything they need in their lives. Like,

698
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: that's what we want. So when when there's any kind

699
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 1: of block, whether it's real or perceived, to your finding

700
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 1: that in your life, then we want to try to

701
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 1: move those things out of the way. And if it's

702
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: a perception, then we're going to try to bust that

703
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: apart with you. So you can be left in a

704
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 1: relationship and that can hurt so bad, that can be

705
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 1: such a big injury and lost to you, and it

706
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: does not leave you helpless. Might feel that way, right, absolutely,

707
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 1: you get feelings are feelings about facts, they're they're an experience.

708
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 1: Like in the I think it's a Webster dictionary, there's

709
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: I looked up the definition of abandoned and it says

710
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: left without needed protection, care or support, for example in

711
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 1: abandoned Babies really says that literally says that, so you

712
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: need if you're in a state of needing care. So

713
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 1: there are some adults who would fit into this category.

714
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: If you were dependent, you were part of a vulnerable population,

715
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: you have a disability of some kind where you're dependent

716
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 1: on people to care for you in some way. That

717
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: can be mental, emotional, or physical. You are a child,

718
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: You're a dependent so you absolutely need people to give

719
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: you protection, care and support. Yeah, if I was, Because

720
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: I think this happens a lot. And when you said

721
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: I have a fear of being an abandoned, A lot

722
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: of that comes up in romantic relationships. It can come

723
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 1: up in other relationships as well, but that's the big

724
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 1: one that I hear a lot, and I think it's

725
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: one thing if like, let's say I am diagnosed with

726
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: something life threatening disease. Let's call it cancer for now,

727
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: just because that's easy one um to pull up in

728
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 1: my memory, not that I have a memory of being

729
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,720
Speaker 1: diagnessed with cancer for you guys, get what I'm saying. Anyway,

730
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: So I get diagnosed with cancer, and I am dependent

731
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: on my spouse for um, maybe finances or health insurance

732
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 1: and maybe just like I need home care, and he's

733
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 1: very much the person that does that. And let's say

734
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: he goes to work one day and he never comes

735
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: back and I never hear from again. That feels like abandonment,

736
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: right absolutely. That feels different than I'm in a relationship

737
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 1: with somebody and we're both fully functional human adults. To

738
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: make this easy, let's say we even both have jobs

739
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: that allow us to be financially independent from each other.

740
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 1: But let's say we're together for ten years and I

741
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,879
Speaker 1: love this person dearly, and one day he comes home

742
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 1: and he's like, I am not in love with you anymore.

743
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: I'm I'm actually going to move out this week. That

744
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: is going to hurt. I mean, I can't even I

745
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 1: don't even want to think about that happening, because that's

746
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 1: gonna hurt so bad. And I might feel like my

747
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 1: world is falling apart, and I very much might feel

748
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: abandoned by this person because we created this life together

749
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 1: and he's leaving me. I have not abandoned by him.

750
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 1: He's leaving me. What I want to go back to

751
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: is what Tara said is the importance of the difference

752
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: is I might feel in that moment powerless and helpless,

753
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: and I do have the ability to get my needs met.

754
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 1: But the more I believe that I'm powerless and helpless,

755
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: the less likely I am to actually get my needs met.

756
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 1: And so it creates that self fulfilling prophecy. So I

757
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: hope those examples. What I'm not doing is comparing the

758
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: impact that those might have in thetly on somebody, because

759
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: let's say, if I had cancer in my husband, who

760
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 1: knows how I might feel emotionally, I might be like

761
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 1: that ass whole, like I know whatever, And they're different.

762
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: So I don't want to compare the emotional impact and

763
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 1: experience of those, but I do want to just separate

764
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: the two so we can Those are two dramatic examples,

765
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 1: so you guys can see kind of the difference and

766
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: why the difference is important. Yeah, I was thinking about

767
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: the phrase feeling abandoned. I mean, it's interesting we usually

768
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: say that we say I felt abandoned rather than I

769
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 1: was abandoned. Yeah, I mean I think sometimes we might

770
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: when we're just talking kind of without thought, but it

771
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 1: does Actually that might even be more accurate to say

772
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 1: I feel if you're in the situation where you are

773
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: not completely unable to meet your own needs as an

774
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: independent adult, then you know, I mean, ultimately, I think

775
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: what you would what it sounds like to me, is

776
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 1: you feel incredible loss. Yeah, And like I think that

777
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: we all well I can't say we all, but I

778
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,280
Speaker 1: know for me, I've had an experience where I felt

779
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: abandoned by a person I was in a relationship with

780
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: to the point where like I had to stay at

781
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 1: my parents for a period of time, it was very

782
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: hard for me to do a lot of daily life tasks,

783
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: and the fact that I was able to actually with

784
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: the help of community, because I'm I do have people

785
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 1: and even if I have to, even if I need

786
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 1: to call upon other resources because I've lost I had

787
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 1: a loss this person that fulfilled these needs of mine.

788
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: I might have to fill those in different ways, but

789
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 1: I have the ability to go get those filled rather

790
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 1: than like you said, a child whose dad abandoned them, like, okay,

791
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: well that's their dad, and yeah, let's not there are

792
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: people that might come in eventually. You can't get another

793
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: biological father. You can get father figure, you can get

794
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: somebody that is very important to you and helps you

795
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: in those ways, but you can't get another biological father.

796
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's a loss. So I think that, like

797
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: we've had those experiences where it's felt like I will

798
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember googling it is so filed. I'm

799
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 1: sure you have experiences like this where like so wild

800
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: when you look back when you were in such a

801
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: like highly volatile emotional state. The things that as a therapist,

802
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: I was googling, like I'm not going to say them

803
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 1: because they don't feel like it's necessary. They thinks I

804
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,919
Speaker 1: was googling about this relationship and ending. I mean, I

805
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,399
Speaker 1: thought my world was never going to be the same,

806
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: and I'm okay, yeah, yeah, And I think what what

807
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: that word is pointing you towards is you're feeling lost.

808
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: You're probably feeling afraid. So like, what am I afraid

809
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: of right now? I might be afraid that I won't

810
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: have this kind of connection or love or support or

811
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: whatever in my life. Again, that might be the fear.

812
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: Like when I think about that's what it is, there's

813
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:57,919
Speaker 1: a core fear going on there that I'm like, ah,

814
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:03,720
Speaker 1: oh no, did ah right. So it gives you insight

815
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 1: into you might say, I lost this person and now

816
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: here's what I'm afraid of. Now here are the things

817
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: I'm grieving. That is also I think other words to you,

818
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: Like we were talking about finding other words for abandonment,

819
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: feeling loss, it's feeling fear, it's feeling lonely. Yeah, and

820
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 1: they heart going back when we look at things as

821
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: feelings because that's in that moment. What that is, Well,

822
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 1: our feelings can lead us to like needs. Right, So

823
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 1: if I'm afraid that I'm never going to connect with

824
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 1: somebody in this way again, or I'm afraid that I

825
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: whatever nobody else will love me, so that will lead

826
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 1: you to a need in that need might be different

827
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 1: for you from me. It was that like, there are

828
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: people in my life still that value me and see

829
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 1: me as worthy and would want me in their life

830
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: even when I mess up. And so if we can

831
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 1: actually look at things as they are and get down

832
00:46:57,760 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 1: to the feeling part of them, that actually leads us

833
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: where we need to go, So then we actually don't

834
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: become those people who literally feel like we're help us

835
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 1: and fulfilled that idea of I'm going to be in

836
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: this space forever. So okay, this is I feel like

837
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 1: there might be more things for you to say too,

838
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: but I feel like what I want to say over

839
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 1: and over again, and I'm just going to say it

840
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: one more time, is that I want you guys to

841
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 1: hear that this conversation that we're having is one that's

842
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 1: meant to more empower then um invalidate your experience, and

843
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 1: so you might be listening to this, and you very

844
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: much might have been abandoned. You very much might have

845
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: been abused what in whatever way you have been And

846
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,320
Speaker 1: so I don't want you to say because we're saying,

847
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 1: I don't want you to hear that, because we're saying

848
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 1: not everything we initially think is abuse and abandonment is

849
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 1: that might still be your experience. We're just trying to

850
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: help give more language that you guys can accurately look

851
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 1: at and and your experience and get what you need.

852
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: Anything else you want to say here. This was very

853
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: helpful for me personally. I think it's great. I was

854
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 1: thinking about like some of the ambiguous abandonment sort of

855
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 1: places like because when we say like dependent and have

856
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 1: the capability to get your own needs, mat that can

857
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 1: get a little you can get, you can get hairy.

858
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 1: I was thinking about like an adult, you know, who's

859
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:28,959
Speaker 1: maybe still financially dependent upon their parents, and their parents

860
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 1: all of a sudden cut them off and it gets

861
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: real sticky, right, because it's like, obviously there's a way

862
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,240
Speaker 1: of going about that that I think is a healthy

863
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: way of going about that. If your parents are and

864
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: you're like, I gotta set boundaries I'm not helping my

865
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: child grow. They need to go be responsible and independent,

866
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,319
Speaker 1: and I've got to make changes. There's a way to

867
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: go about that. I think that would be most appropriate,

868
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:59,399
Speaker 1: And in them doing that, I think ultimately hopefully there's

869
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 1: enough of of a bridge of them saying I want

870
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:05,240
Speaker 1: to move you out of dependence upon me into dependence

871
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 1: upon yourself. Hopefully you would do it that way, and

872
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 1: you probably at whatever level had happened where they were like,

873
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 1: we're not doing this anymore. Let's say they were had

874
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 1: some grace and they were like, by the end of

875
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 1: the month, you can't live here rent free anymore. Okay.

876
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 1: Then by the end of the month or whatever amount

877
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: of days I have, if as long as like my

878
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: capabilities work inside my body and my brain, like I'm

879
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 1: gonna go get a job, it might not be the

880
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 1: job you really want to get, absolutely okay. So I'm

881
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: glad you said that's actually really helpful for everybody, because

882
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 1: when you said that, my initial thought was a lot

883
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: of times when there is somebody who's struggling with addiction

884
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:50,439
Speaker 1: of any kind, there is a cut off, and very

885
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:55,439
Speaker 1: often I've experienced with families and clients and friends where

886
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: that cut off was the thing that actually really helped

887
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: them to and it may have been the hardest thing

888
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: in the world to do, and there might have been

889
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: a period of time where the person cut off was

890
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: piste off, felt abandoned all of the things. And it

891
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 1: is an attempt to not enable somebody anymore. And so

892
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,720
Speaker 1: that's a very extreme example. But what you're talking about

893
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 1: two is like, yeah, there might be times where we've

894
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 1: noticed that we've enabled friends or family members or whoever

895
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 1: it is, and we have a responsibility to not just

896
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 1: allow the same behavior to happen and then just be

897
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 1: annoyed by it even though we're part of the process.

898
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 1: So there's a way to go about that. Hey, let's

899
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: actually look at a plan to help you get on

900
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 1: your feet. I think what can be really when you're

901
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: in it, When you're the person who's then having to

902
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:46,919
Speaker 1: make changes, whether it's I have to get that job

903
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 1: that I don't want, it's really easy to go to

904
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,839
Speaker 1: that place of like I'm a victim of the their

905
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: poor behavior and their poor choices, and my mom kicked

906
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: me out or my dad kicked me out or right whatever,

907
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: when really it's about I don't want to be responsible

908
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,359
Speaker 1: for my life because being an adult is hard and

909
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,840
Speaker 1: sometimes we have to get jobs we don't want to

910
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: work and they're not fun and they feel like work.

911
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 1: And I think that has a lot to do with

912
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 1: the fact that we put out there that your job

913
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,320
Speaker 1: shouldn't feel like work. When work is work, and sometimes

914
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 1: you like it, sometimes you don't. But I think that's

915
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:18,800
Speaker 1: a huge part of that process. It's like, I don't

916
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:24,240
Speaker 1: want to take responsibility. And also with that because everything

917
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: is nuanced when you're you've lived this life of parents

918
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 1: doing everything for you, and all of a sudden they're like,

919
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 1: we're gonna make a plan. That's jolting. That's right, Like

920
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: you kind of set me up for this, right, And

921
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 1: there's responsibility on both ends. There are that there is.

922
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: I think that that's real. That doesn't mean yeah, just

923
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: because it isn't abandonment and you don't have resources that

924
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 1: you need to now tap into that you haven't been,

925
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that they don't have some could ability

926
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,800
Speaker 1: in getting all the build up to that point. So

927
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 1: you know, people are doing their best. Hopefully when they

928
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: want to correct it, they can do it with some

929
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 1: of that awareness, and if it can't, then your life

930
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 1: is up like getting like if someone else is this

931
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 1: is a problem with being in a dependent situation. If

932
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:18,280
Speaker 1: you have the resources not to do that in life,

933
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 1: it leaves you vulnerable. It leaves you vulnerable to not

934
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: having the things that you need when you need them,

935
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 1: if you aren't practiced at really getting your needs met

936
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: through your own resources, through your own ways. And you know,

937
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of nuances about finances and marriages and

938
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: all that stuff. We have courts, thankfully to like protect

939
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: people with those real life issues. That's why I think

940
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 1: we have a legal system around marriage and stuff like

941
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:49,400
Speaker 1: that is is because that's a real thing. And we

942
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 1: don't want women who are vulnerable to be abandoned and

943
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 1: not you know, because they were raising their children and

944
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 1: not making the money all that stuff. So there are

945
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 1: things that are that do acknowledge the dynamics of that

946
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: and in as many ways as possible. If if we

947
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: are really engaging in our own autonomy and our own agency,

948
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 1: then we're not so vulnerable to feeling like, oh no,

949
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 1: oh no, I'm abandoned. Um, Like, if if we're thinking

950
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 1: about even my own self esteem, if I'm doing a

951
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 1: lot of stuff to build my sense of value in

952
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 1: my own little world with other friends, with other activities,

953
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: with meditation, with therapy. Then when I lose a relationship

954
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: like a partner, I'm probably not going to feel so

955
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,759
Speaker 1: abandoned because that part of my esteem and value has

956
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 1: already been propped up with lots of other resources that

957
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 1: I'm using to fill that part of myself, so I

958
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 1: won't feel like that drastic it's all that sucked out

959
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 1: of my life. Now good add into that and again

960
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,719
Speaker 1: here that this is so nuanced, and take this information

961
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 1: and then tease through it like it doesn't have to.

962
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: I'm assuming we didn't lay out your exact experience, because

963
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 1: how could we do that, because every person is so different.

964
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 1: So you can look at it with people that feel

965
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:07,959
Speaker 1: safe to you, whether that is a therapist or somebody

966
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 1: in your life. If you're trying to figure out how

967
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 1: to identify your own experiences. Thank you for having this conversation.

968
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 1: Stay tuned, because you're going to have a similar conversation

969
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 1: about some other mental health things that have been a

970
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 1: little bit skewed in our current pop culture, and that

971
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:29,240
Speaker 1: will be I think in two weeks of Stay tuned.

972
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 1: It might be a fun game if you guys could

973
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 1: guess what they are actually, let's play that game. So

974
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 1: if you have an idea of some other things, or

975
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 1: you have an experience of some other things that have

976
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 1: been skewed um, whether the things that you actually experience

977
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 1: and you you see a lot in pop culture and

978
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 1: now and it's become a little bit harmful or painful

979
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:48,400
Speaker 1: for you to see. Or if there are things that

980
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 1: you just see put over and over and you're like,

981
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 1: this can't be what that means. It seems way too

982
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:56,800
Speaker 1: common or or too easily thrown out in the world.

983
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 1: Let us know what you think our next couple of things.

984
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 1: We're going to dive into our You can email it

985
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 1: to me or you can DM me. But the problem

986
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 1: with DM is I don't always see it. But you

987
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:09,400
Speaker 1: could play that game. You could roll those dice. But

988
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 1: if you want to email, it's Catherine at you Need

989
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 1: Therapy podcast dot com, and on Instagram it's at cat

990
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 1: dot de fata and at you Need Therapy Podcast. Also,

991
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 1: if you just have questions or you want to lay

992
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 1: out an experience and you kind of want to ask

993
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:26,360
Speaker 1: some questions about that experience, you can send that to

994
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 1: my email. I will say it's not really possible for

995
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 1: us to read an email about your experience and then

996
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,280
Speaker 1: be like this was this and this was that, because

997
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 1: there are so many details that you can't put an

998
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:41,720
Speaker 1: email and would not be inappropriate to put an email.

999
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 1: And we're also not in a relationship which I can

1000
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: give you mental health care over a podcast, So you

1001
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:50,320
Speaker 1: can give us an example or an experience, and you

1002
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 1: might want to hear our thoughts and what questions we

1003
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 1: might ask those that might be something we could do.

1004
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 1: I'm open to that, but I definitely want to know

1005
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,400
Speaker 1: what you guys think. The next a little bit topics

1006
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:01,880
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about are so that will be in

1007
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 1: two weeks. We have time to send those in. Thank you, Tara,

1008
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,839
Speaker 1: thanks Cat, anything else you would like to say. Just

1009
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 1: be easy on yourself with understanding these things. And also,

1010
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: everybody has permission to call things whatever they want to

1011
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 1: call them at the end of the day, whatever word

1012
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,879
Speaker 1: feels like the one you need for where you are

1013
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 1: in your own process. Because I think, like we talked

1014
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:27,799
Speaker 1: about before, some people need to get to the place

1015
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 1: where they call something abuse because they need to get

1016
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 1: honest about how harmful and truly oppressive something was in

1017
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 1: their life and the fact that it really did mess

1018
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,760
Speaker 1: their insides up and they need to give themselves permission

1019
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:46,200
Speaker 1: to work on that. So uh well that's the other side. Yeah,

1020
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: and thanks for saying that, because everybody is at a

1021
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:52,320
Speaker 1: different place in their journey, because we all have such

1022
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 1: different experiences of literally everything. So what I might not

1023
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,719
Speaker 1: call something, somebody might call and they might change that,

1024
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 1: and I might change that later in my life as

1025
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 1: I've rediscovered certain things. But I think just having the

1026
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 1: ability what we're doing again and power. We're trying to

1027
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 1: give you more information and we're trying to give you

1028
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 1: more options so that you can actually describe your experience

1029
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 1: with what it feels like to you rather than with

1030
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 1: the little options that you know, going back to that

1031
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 1: when you're a little somebody's mean, but really what you

1032
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 1: mean later in life might be like they were selfish.

1033
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 1: So that's what we're trying to do. We're not trying

1034
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 1: to tell you what to do. We're trying to give

1035
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 1: you more information so you can make it more informed

1036
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 1: decisions on your in life. So thank you and we'll

1037
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 1: be back in two weeks. Okay, Thanks