Speaker 1: The volume. This is Prime Cutch, the best of the
Speaker 1: Colin Coward Podcast. Jason Timp host of Hoops Tonight. Here
Speaker 1: on the volume, we react to the Nuggets championship and
Speaker 1: predict what's going to happen to Denver and Miami moving forward.
Speaker 1: Plus great pod this week with John Middlecoff, not only
Speaker 1: on the NFL, but some thoughts on the US Open.
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Speaker 3: Colin, does that ever get old for you? Watching a
Speaker 3: team hoist the Trophy.
Speaker 1: Uh No, you know, tension makes movies and sports better.
Speaker 1: It was sloppy. I mean Denver was really tight. Even
Speaker 1: Mike Malone at one point said it were tight. I
Speaker 1: mean they couldn't hit free throws, they couldn't hit threes,
Speaker 1: but you know what, they hit their gimmes. You know
Speaker 1: they're they're good in the paint. I thought Michael Porter
Speaker 1: redeemed himself with a couple of big moments, and I
Speaker 1: also thought, you can say that, you know, Denver's not
Speaker 1: this defensively, I thought they were pretty good and the
Speaker 1: fourth quarter I thought they were relentless. I thought they
Speaker 1: were kind of dictating, kind of pushing, running Miami off
Speaker 1: the line, no cheap baskets, made everybody work for everything.
Speaker 1: Like you know, they always say offenses talent and skill,
Speaker 1: defense's effort.
Speaker 2: Like Denver can be good defensively.
Speaker 1: They're so good offensively, they don't have to be great defensively.
Speaker 1: But on a night when they couldn't hit anything, I
Speaker 1: thought their defense in the fourth quarter was really strong.
Speaker 1: They wrote to a really high level.
Speaker 3: You know, it's funny. I was digging into this coming
Speaker 3: into tonight, obviously, as I kind of expected as I'm
Speaker 3: sure you did as well for Denver to hoist the trophy.
Speaker 3: And one of the biggest story lines is this is
Speaker 3: big basically, the first non defending champion in decades to
Speaker 3: win the title without a top ten defense in the
Speaker 3: regular season. It's a significant achievement. It's kind of a
Speaker 3: break of the mold, so to speak. But what's interesting
Speaker 3: is as you dive into it, their defense has been
Speaker 3: excellent in this postseason run. Coming into tonight, their defensive
Speaker 3: rating in the postseason was only about two points worse
Speaker 3: than Golden State last year, who was an outstanding defense
Speaker 3: during the regular season and continued to be so during
Speaker 3: the postseason. Now, some of it, I do think it
Speaker 3: was about matchups, and this is kind of the beauty
Speaker 3: of basketball is like it's not necessarily how great of
Speaker 3: a defense you are in a vacuum, it's how well
Speaker 3: can you guard the Lakers? How well can you guard Miami?
Speaker 3: How well can you guard Phoenix? And with those particular teams,
Speaker 3: you know, Phoenix didn't quite have the amount of rim
Speaker 3: pressure they needed. The Lakers didn't quite have the amount
Speaker 3: of off ball shooting they needed. Miami had all the
Speaker 3: off ball shooting in the world. But they didn't have
Speaker 3: the real high level shot creation that they needed. And
Speaker 3: that's the thing is, like again in the NBA, you
Speaker 3: don't have to be It's not about being that great
Speaker 3: defense the grand scheme of things. It's about your specific matchup.
Speaker 3: And they took it very seriously in this particular postseason run.
Speaker 3: Mike Malone harped on it constantly. They all talked about
Speaker 3: it constantly after that game, too ugly loss to Miami.
Speaker 3: And you know what's interesting is they were missing threes
Speaker 3: like crazy. This was a classic Eric Spolsure game. They
Speaker 3: ran about forty possessions of zone in the first two
Speaker 3: games of the series, then almost completely abandoned it in
Speaker 3: games three and four, and then that was almost all
Speaker 3: they did tonight, and it did a great job of
Speaker 3: disrupting Denver's rhythm. And they were missing a lot of
Speaker 3: open shots. And what's interesting in basketball is you can't
Speaker 3: control shot result, Like if you're getting good looks, you
Speaker 3: fire away and you just hope they go in right,
Speaker 3: But you can control the defensive end of the flour.
Speaker 3: And I thought their second half was probably their best
Speaker 3: stretch of defense in this entire postseason. Hell, they had
Speaker 3: Jimmy Butler, pump baking at ghosts and not wanting to
Speaker 3: shoot the basketball. Bam and a boy was missing everything
Speaker 3: around the paint. It was their defense that got it done,
Speaker 3: and that's what I enjoyed about it. It is like,
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, it was some of
Speaker 3: the traditional things that ended up winning in the end.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they went from a good team to
Speaker 1: a very good team. And you wonder when you look
Speaker 1: at Jokic and Jamal Murray's playmaking ability on top of
Speaker 1: the points, are they potentially a great team? You know,
Speaker 1: Murray is a scorer and Jokic is a score and playmaker,
Speaker 1: that's a very good team. But when Murray adds the element, oh,
Speaker 1: I can make plays for others along with Jokic, Gordon
Speaker 1: an elite defensive team all time, great size, then you
Speaker 1: start going, Wow, they got a lot of things here,
Speaker 1: like Pippen. You know, Michael wasn't a playmaker, he was
Speaker 1: a great score. Pippen wasn't a playmaker, he was a
Speaker 1: great defender. You know, Like like Chicago didn't have a
Speaker 1: lot of that hybrid stuff where you could do both, right,
Speaker 1: Even Shaq and Kobe known as scores so Jokic and
Speaker 1: Murray both become ten plus assist guys. You know, the
Speaker 1: outther thing is when you're when you're a really great team,
Speaker 1: you not only win championships, but you often change the game.
Speaker 1: The Warriors changed the game Denver. Now with their length,
Speaker 1: are they putting it into small ball? You can't really
Speaker 1: play small ball with them. You have to have an
Speaker 1: enormously successful shooting night. They're just too long, they're just
Speaker 1: too big. And I think to myself, great teams not
Speaker 1: only win. The Kansas City Chiefs not only surpassed New England,
Speaker 1: they've made that sort of defense first game, that kind
Speaker 1: of game doesn't match up with Kansas City. You just
Speaker 1: can't stop Kansas City if you give them twelve possessions,
Speaker 1: you just can't. And so, not only is Kansas City
Speaker 1: now better than New England, they've kind of ended the
Speaker 1: idea of ball control because Mahomes needs thirteen seconds and
Speaker 1: he can drive down the field. And I think what
Speaker 1: Denver's doing? Are they ending small ball? Do we look
Speaker 1: at now? Miami's a pretty small team. If bands done
Speaker 1: on the floor, Golden State, they just don't match up.
Speaker 1: They just can't get anything down low and I also
Speaker 1: think it was a throwback series. Denver's very much points
Speaker 1: in the paint, a lot of guys hitting twos. They
Speaker 1: won a championship on a night they couldn't hit free
Speaker 1: throws or threes. I kind of like the old school stuff.
Speaker 1: I got to tell you, people are going to watch them,
Speaker 1: and I think people are going to say, Okay, the
Speaker 1: small ball. Remember Houston for years chased the Warriors small
Speaker 1: ball and they could never win. They were shooting thirty,
Speaker 1: forty fifty threes. You sort of look at Denver and think, oh,
Speaker 1: there is another way length twos playmakers. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I find Denver captivating to watch. I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: watching a little seventies and eighties and twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm watching a little of both.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they represent some proven methods that win in the
Speaker 3: NBA and some new methods. You know. And what's interesting
Speaker 3: is Golden State last year was kind of a small team.
Speaker 3: But if you look back, like size has been winning
Speaker 3: in the NBA lately, like this Denver team, Gigantic, that
Speaker 3: Milwaukee Bucks team in twenty one, Gigantic, that Lakers team
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty, Gigantic, that Toronto Rafters team in twenty
Speaker 3: nineteen massive, Even that Warriors team with Kevin Durant, when
Speaker 3: you really put Kevin Durant with Andre Gudala and Raymond
Speaker 3: Green on that front line, they were massive. They're just
Speaker 3: you have to win with size in the NBA. And
Speaker 3: what was so interesting with this particular Denver team, and
Speaker 3: this is what actually your Kansas City Chiefs reference kind
Speaker 3: of makes sense to me. Like I can't tell you
Speaker 3: how many times over the years as a toward Cowboys fan,
Speaker 3: I'd be watching, like Aaron Rodgers put together these long,
Speaker 3: drawn out drives and then it just felt like the
Speaker 3: Cowboy offense could never get in a rhythm. And the
Speaker 3: three and out is almost just as much of a
Speaker 3: product of the rhythm as it is the defense, just
Speaker 3: because there's a flow to football in the same way
Speaker 3: there's a flow to basketball, and it's when you see
Speaker 3: a team that's going to get a million offensive rebounds
Speaker 3: and they're going to score consistently, get back in transition
Speaker 3: and force you to attack their set defense. Sometimes denver
Speaker 3: best defense is their offense, just by the way they
Speaker 3: beat you up on the interior of the other end
Speaker 3: of the floor. I do not on the One of
Speaker 3: the weird subplots of this series is Jimmy Butler and
Speaker 3: bam Adebayo could not make a shot in the paint
Speaker 3: to save their life like they were. They were awful,
Speaker 3: awful shooting inside the paint in this series. And a
Speaker 3: big part of that is those dudes are banging with
Speaker 3: Aaron Gordon into Kola Yo Kitschall series and it just
Speaker 3: wears on you. And so that's a big part of
Speaker 3: their attack. And then as you go down the roster,
Speaker 3: you mentioned Jamal Murray, and that's such an important part.
Speaker 3: His playmaking has been a revelation in this playoff run.
Speaker 3: He's averaging over seven assists a game. That means Jokich
Speaker 3: and Murray are giving you almost twenty assists a game. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and then you've got the Murray, the KCP Michael Porter
Speaker 3: Junior element, in the Aaron Gordon element. All these guys
Speaker 3: are coming back. This to me feels like a team
Speaker 3: that could just as easily make four or five consecutive
Speaker 3: Western Conference Finals and win multiple championships. That becomes an
Speaker 3: interesting exercise to kind of think about what the rest
Speaker 3: of the league does from here, because I think it's
Speaker 3: gonna in a bunch of different ways. You talked about
Speaker 3: small ball, nine hundred percent agree, Like, there's just there's
Speaker 3: no doubt that if you try to march into a
Speaker 3: series against the Denver Nuggets next year and you want
Speaker 3: to play four dudes that are below six eight, then
Speaker 3: you're going to be up against it from the standpoint
Speaker 3: of competing on the glass and in the physicality areas
Speaker 3: of the game. I mean, Miami did about as good
Speaker 3: as you possibly can do because of how well coached
Speaker 3: they are, but even they looked physically overwhelmed at times,
Speaker 3: and look at what ended up. Most of the pivotal
Speaker 3: plays at the end of this game were offensive rebound
Speaker 3: putbacks and Jokics just mauling dudes around the rim. It
Speaker 3: was their size that got them beat at the end. Now,
Speaker 3: as I look around the league, though, like everyone's got
Speaker 3: to make significant improvements, Like I think Phoenix had some
Speaker 3: real success with pull up jump shooting against this Denver team,
Speaker 3: But they need to confront their size issues. That's gonna
Speaker 3: be something they have to confront. Yeah, oh absolutely. And
Speaker 3: then the Lakers ironically were the by far the most
Speaker 3: successful offense against the Nuggets. That was so weird about
Speaker 3: that series. You go in there and you're like, Lakers
Speaker 3: are the best defense, They're gonna be great. Denver cooked
Speaker 3: La more than they cooked any of the other teams,
Speaker 3: Like it didn't make any sense. And then on the
Speaker 3: offensive end of the flour, we all talked about the
Speaker 3: Laker offense all season. The Lakers were actually the most
Speaker 3: successful offense against the Nuggets, in large part because of
Speaker 3: Lebron James rim pressure, ruey Ha Mura rim pressure. They
Speaker 3: were actually able to attack the paint in a way
Speaker 3: the Miami Heat couldn't. But they have to make so
Speaker 3: many improvements in terms of their perimeter athleticism because guys
Speaker 3: like Bruce Brown and Jamal Murray just absolutely destroyed them,
Speaker 3: and so all these teams have to make significant improvements.
Speaker 3: You're going to see. I think you're going to see
Speaker 3: a lot of teams get really aggressive this offseason because
Speaker 3: they know they're not good enough yet. And I think
Speaker 3: you're going to see a couple centers get some big
Speaker 3: paydays that don't make a ton of sense, as guys
Speaker 3: try to throw money at an extra body to throw
Speaker 3: at Jokic. I think you're going to see a guy
Speaker 3: like Dwight Howard back in the league, Like it's going
Speaker 3: to be this whole summer is going to be like,
Speaker 3: how do we deal with this team who's bringing all
Speaker 3: their guys back, and it's going to be an interesting chount.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean for years and years the Spurs had
Speaker 1: Robinson and Duncan and then the Lakers have always had
Speaker 1: bigs and you know, I mean, it's it's why Portland
Speaker 1: goes out and drafts of Greg Odin, right, you sort
Speaker 1: of you start looking around the league and you're like,
Speaker 1: you know, you see it all the time in all sports.
Speaker 1: Who's in your in the NFL, and when Peyton Manning's
Speaker 1: in your division, everybody drafts edge rushers. Like that's the
Speaker 1: way the sport works. Jokic is just now moving into
Speaker 1: his prime. He's got six more years of it. He's
Speaker 1: in the best shape by the way he's.
Speaker 2: Been in in his career.
Speaker 1: So, I mean, if you really go back at the
Speaker 1: end of the year, Jokich I think sat five of
Speaker 1: their last seven games, so they went on kind of
Speaker 1: a losing streak at the end of the year. Year
Speaker 1: they're not gets to the regular season, they didn't play starters, right,
Speaker 1: if you take that out. I mean this team, I
Speaker 1: mean trade deadline on. We should have seen it coming.
Speaker 1: They just thump people all the time, home road thump people,
Speaker 1: and it's I gotta tell you, I like new stuff.
Speaker 1: I'm not a rearview mirror guy. I love having a
Speaker 1: new potential dynasty. I don't know if they are, but
Speaker 1: it has the makings of one. I mean, when Lebron
Speaker 1: went down to Miami, you felt like, oh, this could
Speaker 1: be special. But d Wade was always a guy that
Speaker 1: hit the floor a lot aged very quickly. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like a running back not many years, and so
Speaker 1: you could see by like year two, it was like
Speaker 1: d Wade wasn't as good on back to back. She
Speaker 1: kind of said there's going to be an expiration date
Speaker 1: pretty quickly on this run. But I look at I
Speaker 1: look at Denver, and I'm like, at least for three
Speaker 1: more years, at least three more handful, because I think
Speaker 1: I think, to be honest, Murray, Jokich, Porter and Gordon
Speaker 1: a right smack dab in the middle of their prime,
Speaker 1: like not near the end of it, like three years
Speaker 1: from now, let's come back and talk about it. Then
Speaker 1: they're closer to the end of it, but this will
Speaker 1: be fun. By the way, I also love KCP bubble team.
Speaker 1: This team hit a big three in this game. I
Speaker 1: loved the game. I love guys like that. There's every
Speaker 1: championship team's got a guy. I love the KCP. He's
Speaker 1: had an interesting career. He goes to the free throw line, ladies,
Speaker 1: talking to all these guys, settle down, settled out like
Speaker 1: kcp's like telling everybody, Hey, I've been here, so I
Speaker 1: just nothing I didn't like. And by the way, we
Speaker 1: all love Miami, but they need Dame. They need a score,
Speaker 1: they need another player. So the good news for Miami
Speaker 1: is they lost. They were overwhelmed, but you know exactly
Speaker 1: what they need. They need a score.
Speaker 3: From the standpoint of Denver in a potential dynasty, the
Speaker 3: part that makes it so possible is Jokich's durability and
Speaker 3: what he's capable of doing when the other guys are
Speaker 3: not available, because both Michael Porter Junior and Jamal Murray
Speaker 3: are constantly dealing with nagging injuries in one way, shape
Speaker 3: or form, and like even Jamal Murray this year, like
Speaker 3: he got back to where he needed to get in
Speaker 3: this postseason, which was one of the biggest storylines coming
Speaker 3: out of the regular season, it's like, can Jamal Murray
Speaker 3: be what he was in twenty twenty And he ended
Speaker 3: up eating way better than that, even but he was
Speaker 3: dealing with some nagging stuff with his knee. Michael Porter
Speaker 3: Junior and his back issues flare up from time to time.
Speaker 3: But what's great about the Jokic thing is like you
Speaker 3: can just throw four dudes out there with him, and
Speaker 3: he's winning fifty regular season games, so like you, you're
Speaker 3: not going to suffer in the standings, you're not going
Speaker 3: to struggle. You can buy rest for Jamal Murray during
Speaker 3: the season and buy rest for Michael Porter Junior. And
Speaker 3: then when those guys are available in the postseason, it's
Speaker 3: the simple fact of you better find a way to
Speaker 3: score on them easily on the other end, because there's
Speaker 3: just nobody ever really truly bothered them in this postseason.
Speaker 3: And that's just going to be a recurring theme as
Speaker 3: far as Miami goes. And this is what is so
Speaker 3: interesting from the same point of continuity. And I actually
Speaker 3: wanted to bring this up because it was something I
Speaker 3: talked about a lot after Game four. But I do
Speaker 3: think it's really interesting that from like twenty seventeen to
Speaker 3: twenty twenty one. It was kind of like the Mercenary era, right, Like,
Speaker 3: the Warriors signed Kevin Durant outright and they win a
Speaker 3: couple championships in a row. The Raptors trade their continuity
Speaker 3: for Kawhi Leonard, a mercenary comes in, they win a title.
Speaker 3: Lebron James sh saw off a half decade of draft
Speaker 3: prospects in the Lakers to bring back Anthony Davis. They
Speaker 3: immediately win a title. The Bucks coming off of a
Speaker 3: really disappointing loss to Jimmy Butler in the Bubble, they
Speaker 3: go out and they trade for Drew Holliday. The immediately
Speaker 3: win a title. That was kind of like that era.
Speaker 3: But now we're in this era where it's like, suddenly,
Speaker 3: you saw last year a Celtics group with Marcus mar
Speaker 3: Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum and Al Horford that had
Speaker 3: a ton of reps together that made it to the finals.
Speaker 3: And then you saw a Warriors team with a bunch
Speaker 3: of dudes who've been playing together forever make it to
Speaker 3: the finals. This year, the Heat and the Nuggets teams
Speaker 3: that had been together for a while, and my theory on.
Speaker 3: This is like there's so much talent in the league. Now,
Speaker 3: every team has two stars. It's like Philly's like the
Speaker 3: tenth best team in the league. It's like they got
Speaker 3: Harden and Embid and Tyree Spacsi. It's like everyone's got
Speaker 3: two stars. Everyone's got good role players. So it's the
Speaker 3: groups that play the best basketball that end up winning.
Speaker 3: And so you have to learn how to play good
Speaker 3: basketball over years. And so I do think it's interesting
Speaker 3: how continuity has taken center stage.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's also the the league is cyclical, Like
Speaker 1: you know, you see this all the time. People copied
Speaker 1: the Warriors for years, even when they didn't have great
Speaker 1: three point shooters. It was just like, okay, we've got
Speaker 1: to become that, and you're like, no, you can get twos.
Speaker 1: You know Denver. Denver was so confident in its ability
Speaker 1: to get twos. They can shoot threes and they're good
Speaker 1: at it, but they're not beholden to it. And and
Speaker 1: so you know, champions usually have people that copy them, right, Like,
Speaker 1: it's it's cyclical. So Lebron and Durant move and they
Speaker 1: have success, so everybody thinks that's that's Kevin Durant and
Speaker 1: Lebron are two of the twelve best players in league
Speaker 1: history or fifteen best players. You can move around the
Speaker 1: league all you want, it's not gonna You're not gonna
Speaker 1: duplicate their championships. So I think Denver I do think
Speaker 1: people will look at Denver and try to get bigger
Speaker 1: to combat them. It was like when the Spurs had
Speaker 1: you know, early in the Spurs, when they have Robinson
Speaker 1: and Duncan, It's like, wow, like this is this is
Speaker 1: a lot, And I think people will try to combat that.
Speaker 1: But I think a lot of what Denver does is
Speaker 1: unique to them. There's just not many guys like Aaron
Speaker 1: Gordon in the league that big. I mean just I
Speaker 1: saw him the other days. He was doing something after
Speaker 1: a game and he had like a sweater on and
Speaker 1: he was at the microphone and I'm like that ain't
Speaker 1: sit ups and deadlifts. That dude is just built, not
Speaker 1: like any human I've ever met, Like six ' ten
Speaker 1: broad He's just not on the market.
Speaker 3: Right like YA game against him, I'm aware he's huge.
Speaker 1: So Jokic is not on the market like some of
Speaker 1: great teams have. Steph Curry's not on the market. You
Speaker 1: can try to duplicate it. Lebron wasn't on the market,
Speaker 1: so you're gonna see some imitators and people try to
Speaker 1: get bigger. But you know, great teams everywhere. Mahomes isn't
Speaker 1: on the market, right, you can try to duplicate so
Speaker 1: much of it. Denver's unique. I think they're going to
Speaker 1: alter the game. I think they're going to have copycats,
Speaker 1: and I think they're going to be around for years.
Speaker 1: I was so happy for the city because I've always
Speaker 1: said Detroit and Denver don't get the love. But everything
Speaker 1: works in Detroit. They like bowling. I've seen the ratings
Speaker 1: college basketball. You know, New York City is a great
Speaker 1: sports city, but they don't love college football, they don't
Speaker 1: love NASCAR. Detroit loves everything. Denver's the same way. Denver
Speaker 1: loves everything. Every star was out the night in Denver,
Speaker 1: every coach, every player, it was like it was it
Speaker 1: meant so much to the city.
Speaker 2: And it's the fans there are.
Speaker 1: You know, I grew up with the Orange Crush, and
Speaker 1: you know that was the loudest place in the league.
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I just I felt, I really felt.
Speaker 1: I was so happy for Denver. It meant so much
Speaker 1: to the city. I mean, you see Peyton Manning moved there.
Speaker 1: Right after he played, he said this story, I want
Speaker 1: to I want to be the rest of my life.
Speaker 1: And he's biting his lip and he's sweating, and I'm like, god,
Speaker 1: it meant so much.
Speaker 2: It was such a joy to watch.
Speaker 1: I mean, it was.
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 1: It was one of the great quarters of intense, sluggish
Speaker 1: it open jumper missing basketball in a long time, like
Speaker 1: it was. You kept saying to yourself, Okay, Denver doesn't
Speaker 1: deserve to win. You can't miss free When when Brown
Speaker 1: missed two free throws, Christian Brown missed two free throws,
Speaker 1: I'm like, bro.
Speaker 2: Come on, you can't do that. You can't win a
Speaker 2: title like that.
Speaker 1: But uh, I just have a feeling of elevation tonight,
Speaker 1: Like I'm really happy for Denver.
Speaker 3: I love competitive basketball like that. It's funny. There was
Speaker 3: a quote from jeff A. Gundhi during the game when
Speaker 3: he was talking about Max Strew's playing through his struggles
Speaker 3: and he's like, he's like every coach loves a player
Speaker 3: that is competitive when he's struggling, because a guy who's
Speaker 3: struggling but his competitive will attempt to find ways to
Speaker 3: affect the game even when he's not making shots. Like
Speaker 3: do you remember that ridiculous chase down block that Max
Speaker 3: Shrew's had in the fourth quarter with like four minutes
Speaker 3: left where I think it was. I think it might
Speaker 3: have been Jamal Murray. Somebody had a breakaway layup and
Speaker 3: he was Christian Browning and yeah, yeah, and he came
Speaker 3: flying in and blocked it. And I was like, that
Speaker 3: is just sheer force of competitive will when he can't
Speaker 3: buy a bucket. And there was literally like ten of
Speaker 3: those dudes out on the court tonight because nobody could
Speaker 3: really make anything, you know, even Jokic missed one of
Speaker 3: his late little push shots that he always makes. So
Speaker 3: I wanted to talk about a little bit about Yokic
Speaker 3: in his place atop the league because I think even
Speaker 3: as we talk about the tier that you had mentioned,
Speaker 3: which is Luka, Janis, Jokic, and Steph, I think that
Speaker 3: Jokic has demonstrated a level of offensive I don't know
Speaker 3: what it's called, like inevitability, like like consistent shot creation
Speaker 3: that's even a level above some of those guys. This
Speaker 3: kind of reminds me a little bit of Lebron in
Speaker 3: the early twenty tens where there's kind of like the
Speaker 3: changing of the guard where it's like Kobe's tailing off
Speaker 3: right and Duncan's tailing off, and so Lebron's kind of
Speaker 3: filling that void, and then some of the younger guys
Speaker 3: like kd just wasn't quite there yet. Steph Curry's not
Speaker 3: quite there yet. That's kind of the way I'm looking
Speaker 3: at this right now, Like Jokic feels like he's at
Speaker 3: the absolute peak of his powers here in his late twenties,
Speaker 3: and Giannis is like dealing with some flaws in his
Speaker 3: game in the half court, and Steph just didn't quite
Speaker 3: shine through against that dominant Laker defense the way that
Speaker 3: Jokic did. And Luca's struggling in the margins of basketball,
Speaker 3: like he's unbelievably great, but he's struggling defensively, and he'struggling
Speaker 3: with his attitude, and he's struggling with kind of maintaining
Speaker 3: the flow of a team with how kind of ball
Speaker 3: hockey he can be sometimes, And so like, do you
Speaker 3: do you potentially see Jokic starting a run here where
Speaker 3: he's the best player in the world for a while.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think The best player today is Jokic,
Speaker 1: Jana's second, Luca third. Yanna struggles with free throws, confidence late,
Speaker 1: and Luca struggles with playing with somebody ball dominant. Those
Speaker 1: are real factors. Jokic doesn't really have that, and so
Speaker 1: I do think I do think he feels different. He
Speaker 1: also and this is really a thing, and there's more
Speaker 1: than one way to do it, but there's an ego
Speaker 1: lesseness to him, meaning he'll be easy to play with.
Speaker 1: Kobe wasn't. I mean, Kobe won force of just a wilfulness,
Speaker 1: and then with Shaq and then with Gasol, like Kobe
Speaker 1: willed his way to a championship, a lot of that
Speaker 1: was Jordan. Jordan wasn't always easy to play with. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of different ways to do it. Then you
Speaker 1: get Magic and Lebron where they make everybody better. I
Speaker 1: feel like Bill Russell, Magic Johnson, Lebron, and Jokich feels
Speaker 1: similar to me that stylistically they're all different, but their
Speaker 1: ability to make minus players plus players B minus player
Speaker 1: A B plus C minus player A C plus Like
Speaker 1: I mean, Murray was an A player in this. I
Speaker 1: always thought of him kind of as an A minus
Speaker 1: A B plus and I'm like, no, he was an
Speaker 1: a player with some A plus knights and he's not
Speaker 1: doing that without the screens. Inevitability is a good word,
Speaker 1: like Russell Magic Lebron. It wasn't just them. I've said
Speaker 1: this before to you. Is the greatest stat Lebron's basketball
Speaker 1: careers in high school where he averaged like twenty six
Speaker 1: a game. As a junior, he scored He could have
Speaker 1: scored fifty a game. As a senior he scored twenty seven.
Speaker 1: That told me all I think all I needed to
Speaker 1: know about Lebron is junior and senior year he averaged
Speaker 1: like a point and a half more. That's never been
Speaker 1: Lebron games to outscore people. It's always been about elevating
Speaker 1: others because he knows he can get his points. And
Speaker 1: it's like that told you what Lebron was. He I
Speaker 1: mean the Lebron James best basketball playerrever. If I said,
Speaker 1: what do you think he averaged his last year of
Speaker 1: high school, you'd be like forty eight, like no one
Speaker 1: more point than his junior year. And I think that's
Speaker 1: the key. I think free agents and people are going
Speaker 1: to look Jason at Jokic and be like Denver's not
Speaker 1: a bad place to live, right, Harden, Luca. It's like, man,
Speaker 1: am I going to get the shot?
Speaker 2: Am I going to get? Looks? You watch Jalen Brown
Speaker 2: explode in New York, Jalen Brunson explode in New York,
Speaker 2: You're like, Holy God, Luca got in his way.
Speaker 1: Man. There's a lot of guys, a lot of Kevin Loves,
Speaker 1: a lot of Chris Sposhes had really big careers, gave
Speaker 1: up a lot of numbers and said I want to
Speaker 1: play with that dude. All right, I'm going to bring
Speaker 1: in my buddy, John Middlecoff Three and Out podcast, former
Speaker 1: NFL scout on the Volume Sports Network also hosts Go Low,
Speaker 1: our golf podcast US Open in Los Angeles. Everybody here's
Speaker 1: fired up. Everybody I know is going except me because
Speaker 1: I'm doing a podcast. All right, John, I want to
Speaker 1: start with something. In the last twenty four hours, I
Speaker 1: do kind of a pre camp standings and we're through
Speaker 1: the draft, coaching free agency OTAs, and my only woe
Speaker 1: was I put in Miami in first, in Buffalo and second,
Speaker 1: and I had two reasons for it. I think Vic
Speaker 1: Fangio is the most underrated coach assistant in the league.
Speaker 1: I think he's a great defensive coordinator. Between he and
Speaker 1: Jalen Ramsey, I think their defense is going to be
Speaker 1: a handful. Secondly, I like the momentum of Mike McDaniel
Speaker 1: and Tua. I think they get better and better and better.
Speaker 1: I watched them out Coach Sean McDermott two of the
Speaker 1: three games last year, clearly and arguably three of the
Speaker 1: three games. And also the Stefan Diggs story. Something's amiss
Speaker 1: five years in, they can't solve the offensive line. They've
Speaker 1: added more defensive linemen at all over gotten extension. I'm
Speaker 1: not anti defensive Coach Pete Carroll, Tomlin Belichick obviously very capable.
Speaker 1: Where what do you make of the Stefan Digs? A
Speaker 1: lot of the Instagram stuff, it just for that stuff
Speaker 1: to go public. What did you make of it?
Speaker 2: Well, you know he's had issues before he was he's
Speaker 2: a winning diva. You know, he won in Minnesota, was
Speaker 2: a very productive player, and they're good teams, but he
Speaker 2: was a lot for them, and they got rid of them,
Speaker 2: and they made one of the great trades in recent memory,
Speaker 2: essentially straight up for a draft pick that turned right
Speaker 2: into justin Jefferson right, So it was a pretty seamless
Speaker 2: transition for them, and Digs has been excellent for the Bills.
Speaker 2: I heard you, I think yesterday or two days ago,
Speaker 2: kind of on the Sean McDermott experience, and I was
Speaker 2: thinking about it over the last twenty four hours. I
Speaker 2: think a lot of times. And the works for offensive
Speaker 2: coaches too, And now Shawn's technically the defensive coordinator. You are,
Speaker 2: your success is very predicated on the other side of
Speaker 2: the ball who you hire, So just look at some
Speaker 2: of the offensive coaches right when did Andy Reid? Obviously
Speaker 2: Mahomes was a big element of this got rid of
Speaker 2: I think Bob Sutton was the defensive coordinator. Spagnola last
Speaker 2: five years, three Super bowls in their defense has been
Speaker 2: dramatically better with often young players, Kyle Shanahan back to
Speaker 2: back defensive coordinators become head coaches. They've been awesome. And
Speaker 2: now he hires Steve Wilkes. Everyone's really high on Sean McVay.
Speaker 2: Excellent defensive coordinators, so you need help on that side
Speaker 2: of the ball. When were the Bills really good for
Speaker 2: that three or four year stretch? Brian Abel turns out
Speaker 2: he's a star maybe Ken Dorsey. I mean, we're gonna
Speaker 2: there's gonna be a lot of pressure on him because
Speaker 2: they got a little loosey goosey last year with Josh Allen,
Speaker 2: who just is kind of a loosey goosey player. His
Speaker 2: talent is just so elite right now. The thing with
Speaker 2: the team building and I know you talked about the
Speaker 2: offensive line with the Bills. Their GM has a lot
Speaker 2: of juice Brandon Bean, you know, and they have invested
Speaker 2: heavily in the defensive line, which no one really like.
Speaker 2: That's a smart thing to do, but it's like, have
Speaker 2: they hit on the right guys. I like von Miller
Speaker 2: fifty five million dollars for a guy thirty three years old.
Speaker 2: It was a lot of money. Yes, it was a
Speaker 2: lot of money, and he was having a really good
Speaker 2: season last year. But what happened he got hurt. You know,
Speaker 2: older guys. You saw JJ Watt a couple of years ago. Again,
Speaker 2: elite guy, champion. It's hard to overpay those guys. John.
Speaker 1: I didn't like the von Miller deal. I thought the Rams,
Speaker 1: much like the Chiefs did with ju Ju Smith Schuster
Speaker 1: incentive laden deal comes in. It's Patriots overpay. I thought
Speaker 1: Von Miller for the Rams was a home run. I
Speaker 1: think Buffalo overpaid. I think at his age and injury history,
Speaker 1: it was a mistake.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think when you're giving the you know, astronomical
Speaker 2: deals when you're a championship level team, they got to
Speaker 2: be year guys. When you go shopping in free agency,
Speaker 2: you just you pay what a twenty thirty percent premium
Speaker 2: just on the fact that you're bidding against other teams,
Speaker 2: the prices go up. So I think they regret that one.
Speaker 2: But I do think their success. You know, Sean mcdermoy
Speaker 2: has proven to be a good defensive coordinator when he
Speaker 2: was with the Carolina Panthers and Ron Rivera, like, he
Speaker 2: knows what he's doing to coach the defense. So let's
Speaker 2: just say their defense a little bit better. What if
Speaker 2: their offense, like what if Ken Dorsey? I mean, for
Speaker 2: every counse Shanahan and Sean McVay, there are a lot
Speaker 2: offensive coordinators that turn out to not be that good.
Speaker 2: So that would be my biggest concern if I was
Speaker 2: a Bills fan. The thing with the Dolphins, though, Colin
Speaker 2: doesn't the quarterback concern you. I mean, you Cushing away
Speaker 2: from like missing the season.
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, two is put on about fifteen pounds.
Speaker 1: You can see it in practice in the OTA. Like
Speaker 1: he got thick. He did a Jalen hurts Lamar did
Speaker 1: it two years ago. You're like, he's got traps, he's
Speaker 1: got he got thick. So Tua's kind of come to
Speaker 1: terms with you can't. You can't play light at that position.
Speaker 1: You can in college when you have Bama's offensive line,
Speaker 1: you can't in the NFL. You got to put putting on.
Speaker 1: You got to put weight on.
Speaker 2: He's the ground two when she hits the fan, you
Speaker 2: can't try to be a hero. He's not big enough
Speaker 2: or fast enough to do that.
Speaker 1: So I've said if he plays fifteen games, I do
Speaker 1: think Jalen Ramsey Vic Fangio. I think if you look
Speaker 1: at Shanahan's system with Matt Ryan, it's in year two
Speaker 1: that a quarterback. It's complicated that a quarterback really hits
Speaker 1: it with Shanahan. Often it's been year two. I think
Speaker 1: year two McDaniel and Tua. I think the division's really good.
Speaker 1: If de Andray Hopkins signed with New England, I think
Speaker 1: that's that's like substantial. But I have the same quarterback worries.
Speaker 1: I I just don't like the way Buffalo is trending.
Speaker 1: And the other thing is with Aaron Rodgers and the Jets.
Speaker 1: I know Aaron's going to be fine, and I think
Speaker 1: he's using He's smart, he knows the narrative on in
Speaker 1: Green Bay was his buddies were the old guys Bachtiari
Speaker 1: and Cobb. He didn't work with young guys. So in
Speaker 1: New York he's made a point to put his arms
Speaker 1: around the young I love these young players. He's smart,
Speaker 1: he sees It's like I've said before, when you get
Speaker 1: divorced and remarried, you're like, what was I really bad at?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 1: I got to get better at dealing with kids. I
Speaker 1: get to get better with money. Like you know what
Speaker 1: you're bad at, you correct it. He's he's course corrected
Speaker 1: on the young guys. But it's still a shaky O
Speaker 1: line the wide receiving corps. Alan Lazard's more of a three,
Speaker 1: Garrett Wilson's young. I still I don't think they I
Speaker 1: think most of their talents and the defensive front and
Speaker 1: in corner. So I if I said to you, so,
Speaker 1: Miami's my woe pick. I think Carolina has a chance
Speaker 1: to win their division, mostly because it's a bad division.
Speaker 1: Is there a woe pick for you at this point
Speaker 1: a division that I.
Speaker 2: Would go, Man, I didn't see that coming. Well, I
Speaker 2: guess you could see it coming. But everyone's going to
Speaker 2: pick the Bengals. I do think the Steelers are really
Speaker 2: coming on at the end of the year last year.
Speaker 2: We know how well they draft, we know how much
Speaker 2: talent they have on their team. You know TJ. Watt,
Speaker 2: remember missed a lot of last season. He's yes a
Speaker 2: lot like Nick Bosa that if he's playing seventeen games,
Speaker 2: he's getting you close to twenty sacks and dominating every
Speaker 2: game he plays. In good point. Their culture, you know
Speaker 2: their quarterback. I'm not a huge like. I don't really
Speaker 2: like those type players because I think they're ceilings pretty low.
Speaker 2: But physically you get to go to a place that's
Speaker 2: just kind of equipped with a running back, weapons, a defense.
Speaker 2: He's an older, younger player. I mean, it's not out
Speaker 2: of the realm possibility they win twelve or thirteen games,
Speaker 2: right if they maximize and stay healthy and they're in
Speaker 2: that division. No one's intimidated, especially Baltimore and Pittsburgh by
Speaker 2: the Cincinnati Bengals, right, even though Bengals have been beating them,
Speaker 2: but they will view of healthy that they should win
Speaker 2: the division. So I'd say the Steelers are a team
Speaker 2: that I might lean to pick. I'm definitely gonna pick
Speaker 2: to make the playoffs, but to potentially win the North
Speaker 2: Well and the other thing.
Speaker 1: Very much like New England defensive culture, defensive coach. They
Speaker 1: get a Mac Jones, a Kenny Pickett, lower ceiling. But
Speaker 1: if you kind of look at what Belichick, Brady was
Speaker 1: viewed as a lower ceiling guy or I got better
Speaker 1: over time, yep. And so the truth is Belichick Belichick
Speaker 1: doesn't want Lamar Jackson running out of his place either,
Speaker 1: just Shanahan either. Just you know, Tomlin sometimes was frustrated
Speaker 1: with big bends, you know, ad libbing, kind of refusal
Speaker 1: to audible in and out of trouble. And so I
Speaker 1: kind of look at Kenny Pickett and I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I don't love him. His ceiling maybe seven and a half.
Speaker 1: But you know, with Tomlin's defense, with a culture that
Speaker 1: can win a division, it really can.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And listen, I think coaches, you talk to these
Speaker 2: guys GMS every year is a new year, so the momentum,
Speaker 2: especially when you miss the playoffs, doesn't carry over. But
Speaker 2: that is an organization whose standards so high and they're
Speaker 2: so used to like ending on success will carry over.
Speaker 2: I think for a lot of these guys, I think
Speaker 2: the Saints are another team. You know, I know you've
Speaker 2: always been a supporter of Derek and I've known him
Speaker 2: since Fresno State. I think for the first time in
Speaker 2: his career he was really kind of told like essentially,
Speaker 2: you suck get out here. Yeah, you know, like you're
Speaker 2: not good enough to play here. They've left, he left
Speaker 2: the building the last couple of weeks. That's a team
Speaker 2: that what's crazy is that the end of the Sean
Speaker 2: Payton era in New Orleans, they had a really good
Speaker 2: defense and they still have a lot of physical pieces.
Speaker 2: They've been a physical team. Yeah, then Drew's career kind
Speaker 2: of ends, and obviously they go into this court. They
Speaker 2: don't have a quarterback. Derek does not have to be
Speaker 2: Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes. If he can just play
Speaker 2: like the tenth eleventh best quarterback in you know, the NFL,
Speaker 2: they could especially winnu factor in their division. Their strength
Speaker 2: of schedule, like why couldn't they win ten eleven games?
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting you you touched on Sean Payton.
Speaker 1: I want to dive a little bit into Denver here,
Speaker 1: so I thought it probably more the best guest I've
Speaker 1: ever had on my show reoccurring as Sean Payton. I
Speaker 1: did him Mondays fifteen times last year. Seawan and I
Speaker 1: would talk five minutes before he went on, twenty minutes,
Speaker 1: twenty five when he was on five after. I learned
Speaker 1: so much much to dinner a couple of times. I
Speaker 1: learned so much from Sean Payton. I could tell after
Speaker 1: about four or five meetings with him, there's no way
Speaker 1: he was going to stay out of the league. He
Speaker 1: just he's so curious, he's such a good storyteller. He's
Speaker 1: so he's just he's like intellectually twitchy, like he needs
Speaker 1: to work right. He can only golf so much. You've
Speaker 1: met guys like this.
Speaker 2: He's too good of a coach to not be coaching,
Speaker 2: that's right.
Speaker 1: And he didn't have the burnout yet of a Jimmy
Speaker 1: Johnson who could have coached for years more. But Jimmy
Speaker 1: was burnt out, and Sean, unlike Jimmy. Maybe it has
Speaker 1: a good social life. I mean, Sean's gonna go rip
Speaker 1: it up and have a good time, beautiful young wife
Speaker 1: like Sean gets away from the sport. But I watched
Speaker 1: Denver and seven of the base eight best offensive lines
Speaker 1: according to PFF last year were offensive head coaches Harbaugh
Speaker 1: and seven offensive head coaches. They figure out the O line.
Speaker 1: It wasn't lost on me that he goes out and
Speaker 1: gets Mike mcglinchy right tackle, Ben Powers at guard. They
Speaker 1: already have, they have Garrett Bowles coming back, who's their
Speaker 1: best onlinement, and they do have an interior guard they
Speaker 1: like on the roster, and so I think we're going
Speaker 1: to see a significant upgrade on their O line. And
Speaker 1: Sean told me a couple of times off the air
Speaker 1: and on with Russell Wilson, he said he's got to
Speaker 1: go back to leaning into what he does and that
Speaker 1: is basketball on grass. He's got to move, that's what
Speaker 1: he is. What do you in vision? I think they're
Speaker 1: going to take a big leap. What do you envision
Speaker 1: with them?
Speaker 2: I didn't love the O lineman signings for the price point,
Speaker 2: but ultimately mcglinchy's a good example like, do you love
Speaker 2: buying a house at the peak of the market. Sometimes
Speaker 2: not ideally, but he need somewhere to live, right, So
Speaker 2: do I want to pay fifty million dollars for McGlinchey. No,
Speaker 2: but who's going to play right tackle? And it's not
Speaker 2: like he's coming from the worst team in the league.
Speaker 2: He's been a five year starter on the forty nine ers.
Speaker 2: So it's listen, maybe I'm too close to the sun.
Speaker 2: I've seen him, but he's he is a starts every
Speaker 2: game for you at a very very critical condition. I'm
Speaker 2: with you. I mean, what made Russell Wilson so special?
Speaker 2: And I've seen him live several times in his heyday,
Speaker 2: he was just a magician. He kind of had this
Speaker 2: Steve Young flair, obviously the deep ball, and he looked
Speaker 2: like a shell of himself. And you know, I think
Speaker 2: most of us, if you're going to be bullish on
Speaker 2: his comeback, he'd be like, well, Nate Hackett dysfunction. And
Speaker 2: then if you were going to be bearish on the
Speaker 2: situation and be like, well, he's a lot of miles
Speaker 2: on those tires right running around. You can't play like
Speaker 2: that forever. He's probably him and Aaron Rodgers are probably
Speaker 2: the two most fascinating situations this year for just high
Speaker 2: level Hall of Fame level guys in new scenarios. Obviously,
Speaker 2: Russell's been there a year, but now gets Sean Payton
Speaker 2: no longer he's in charge. I think some of the
Speaker 2: stuff was overblown, Like Peyton Manning had an office at
Speaker 2: the facility right in Indian Denver. No one cares about
Speaker 2: that stuff when you're winning. It just gets weird when
Speaker 2: you're not. Now, Peyton like Tom are just better dealing
Speaker 2: with guys one on one. Like, I don't know if
Speaker 2: that's something you change. I mean some of the question
Speaker 2: marks with Russell just being a little different. You know,
Speaker 2: that's not something you usually flip a switch at it.
Speaker 2: Thirty two, thirty three years old. Like, I'm pretty confident
Speaker 2: Sean Paige. You talk to people in the NFL that
Speaker 2: he's viewed as one of the best offensive minds and
Speaker 2: just schemers of his generation, so offensively like the scheme,
Speaker 2: He's going to figure it out. It's just Ken Russell.
Speaker 2: Is he still the athlete and if his athleticism is
Speaker 2: let's say it was once a hundred percent, is now
Speaker 2: sev not eighty eight percent. That's a big problem for
Speaker 2: a smaller player who's not ever going to play like
Speaker 2: a Brady or Maning in the pocket.
Speaker 1: Right. You know, it was interesting. I started thinking, why
Speaker 1: wouldn't Russell run last year because it was really abrupt,
Speaker 1: like he wove movement, wouldn't And I did wonder this
Speaker 1: is that that Russell wanted to be viewed as a
Speaker 1: pocket passer because he wanted to be viewed as an
Speaker 1: all time great. And Brady was winning super Bowls and
Speaker 1: MP and Lamar Jackson was new in the league. Lamar
Speaker 1: was running around, and I had this thought that that
Speaker 1: Russell watched all of this and thought, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to be Lamar. I'm not going to be Kyder Murray.
Speaker 1: I'm not those guys. I want to establish my guy
Speaker 1: myself as a pocket guy, because it was almost as
Speaker 1: if he was stubborn not moving. If you watch their games,
Speaker 1: when he moved, he moved the chains. He's not a
Speaker 1: great pocket passer. Jalen Hurts isn't yet a great pocket passer.
Speaker 1: Lamar's better than people think. He's not Burrow. And I
Speaker 1: thought it was almost one of those where Sean Payton
Speaker 1: said this to me.
Speaker 2: He goes.
Speaker 1: I got to convince Russell, let's go back to basketball
Speaker 1: on grass. I think Russell can move. I think Russell
Speaker 1: made a decision he did not want to be branded
Speaker 1: as run around guy because Kyler had come in and
Speaker 1: was a little quicker, Lamar was faster, Josh Allen was
Speaker 1: leaping over people, and Russell was thinking, I don't want
Speaker 1: to be the seventh best running quarterback in this league.
Speaker 1: That was my interpretation because when I watched, I'd think, Russell,
Speaker 1: every time you run in these games, twice a game,
Speaker 1: you pick up a first down run. He's still very elusive.
Speaker 1: So sometimes, you know, people have told me this before
Speaker 1: in my career. Sportscasters like, lean into what you are.
Speaker 1: You know, if you're a storyteller, be a storyteller. If
Speaker 1: you're funny, be funny. If you're a great journalist, lean
Speaker 1: into it. I think Russell needs to lean back into Russell.
Speaker 1: So I want to go from there to a team
Speaker 1: you know very well, the forty nine ers. I think
Speaker 1: it's impossible to yank a player that went aight, and
Speaker 1: Zho is a starting quarterback.
Speaker 2: I don't think, so what is not happening? So it
Speaker 2: doesn't you know, they want guy, what do you do
Speaker 2: with Trey Lamps? Well, I actually think he can earn
Speaker 2: a lot of creditibility back and I think he has
Speaker 2: a little bit in the OTAs. But this fall, if
Speaker 2: he just beat Sam Darnald out, like he went from
Speaker 2: the number three pick in the draft and traded for
Speaker 2: three first round picks to two years later not the
Speaker 2: starting quarterback because mister irrelevant is and competing with Sam
Speaker 2: Donald who's playing for three million dollars to be the
Speaker 2: backup quarterback. So I do think there's a lot on
Speaker 2: the line come August. Right in training camp, they have
Speaker 2: some joint practices the preseason games. My take is though,
Speaker 2: I just the forty nine ers thought that they could
Speaker 2: have their cake and eat it too and this player,
Speaker 2: and they realized he needed so much work and he
Speaker 2: got hurt that they were just a ready made machine.
Speaker 2: It's why they always kind of went back to Jimmy Garoppolo.
Speaker 2: And then when they just they didn't luck into Brock
Speaker 2: party because they he made the team last year out
Speaker 2: of training camp. Like they what he did in training camp,
Speaker 2: Kyle kind of fell in love with They really liked him.
Speaker 2: Now they didn't think he was in end up being
Speaker 2: a starting quarterback, but through injuries, his play through whatever,
Speaker 2: the end of the season and then those couple of
Speaker 2: playoff games before. I guess the Dallas game was hard.
Speaker 2: I mean their defense was playing really well. The Eagle
Speaker 2: game didn't even happen. That he was a more explosive
Speaker 2: player than Jimmy Garoppolo. And we know the weapons they have, right,
Speaker 2: and I think now that they have Christian McCaffrey, they
Speaker 2: just go, we don't need because I'm not asking you
Speaker 2: to play like Patrick Mahomes. We run the ball a lot,
Speaker 2: we throw a lot of quick screens, we throw a
Speaker 2: lot of wheel routes. We are not bombs away like
Speaker 2: the Buffalo Bills or the Bengals. That's not the way
Speaker 2: we play. So we just need a guy to be
Speaker 2: very very accurate basically, like the ten yard window, passed
Speaker 2: the line of scrimmage right, and perty was awesome at that.
Speaker 2: Of course he was. He's been a four year starter
Speaker 2: at Iowa State. He's a multiple All big twelve guy.
Speaker 2: He had a lot of experience, very confident, and it's
Speaker 2: just an accurate player. I mean that's his strength and
Speaker 2: that's not Trey's strength. And you know, the Bills several
Speaker 2: years ago were like, screw it, We're going to figure
Speaker 2: it out with Josh Allen and learn through it. And
Speaker 2: they weren't even close to being a super Bowl contender
Speaker 2: at the time he started when he got there. That's
Speaker 2: the opposite with the forty nine er. You could argue
Speaker 2: it would have been an easier landing spot if he
Speaker 2: just went to a shitty team and just got to
Speaker 2: screw up on the fly and figure it out. That
Speaker 2: was I think the forty nine ers thought the opposite,
Speaker 2: and then once they got it, they're like, yeah, we can't.
Speaker 2: And the players last year were kind of grumbling because
Speaker 2: they're thinking, we can't win ten games if this guy's
Speaker 2: not accurate, right, we can't figure it out on the fly.
Speaker 2: We're twenty five to twenty eight year old guys in
Speaker 2: our prime right to roll. And yeah, I mean if
Speaker 2: he doesn't win the backup job. They do have the
Speaker 2: three quarterback rule, you know, they change it. Technically they
Speaker 2: keep them, but to me, it's not out of the
Speaker 2: realm possibility. They just maybe trade him at the end
Speaker 2: of training camp if Sam Donold like beats him out right,
Speaker 2: because once you can't have a guy nine million dollars
Speaker 2: being your third, You know.
Speaker 1: Can you get can you get a fourth round pick
Speaker 1: for him?
Speaker 2: I think it depends how he plays in training camp
Speaker 2: right now. You could not Now if he looks good
Speaker 2: in training camp and Sam's just better. They have a
Speaker 2: joint practice with the Raiders. What Jimmy Garoppolo, they're baking
Speaker 2: on him being healthy? I mean he can't. He can't
Speaker 2: pass a physical in June for the second time in
Speaker 2: two years, So I mean that that could be a disaster.
Speaker 2: What if he's good against the Raiders Mark Davis Vegas
Speaker 2: Knights champion. You can't just be a relevant in Vegas.
Speaker 2: They don't have a and if Jimmy is injured, I
Speaker 2: mean that they be Brian Hoyer would we wouldn't just
Speaker 2: trade a fourth to just see what you got to
Speaker 2: take your chances because there's some pressure on just being
Speaker 2: relevant if you're the Raiders. So I think there would
Speaker 2: be a couple teams if he shows signs of life.
Speaker 2: If he doesn't, uh, yeah, his value is very very
Speaker 2: small because he makes he's a third overall pick, he
Speaker 2: makes him cash. Right.
Speaker 1: I just saw this. There was a rumor the Patriots
Speaker 1: tried to trade for Rogers and he blocked it. Do
Speaker 1: you believe that rumor?
Speaker 2: I would bet Bill sniffed around because he was obviously
Speaker 2: pretty down on Mac Jones over the last twelve months.
Speaker 2: The Patriots don't have any offensive weapons. It's not really
Speaker 2: an enjoyable place to go once it's not guaranteed you're
Speaker 2: gonna win. I mean, one of the reasons guys were
Speaker 2: taking pay cuts because you were guaranteed at minimum to
Speaker 2: go to the AFC Championship Game and like an eighty
Speaker 2: percent chance you were going to the Super Bowl. So
Speaker 2: once it's like, well we might win nine games, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm not playing for that curmudgeon. You've been on this
Speaker 2: forever and listen. I think Bill's an awesome I mean,
Speaker 2: he's an all time great coach any sport, any era,
Speaker 2: at anytime. But the offensive game last year was an
Speaker 2: embarrassment to go with Patricia Right and Joe Judge. I mean,
Speaker 2: that situation that's beyond like arrogance or whatever. That's just crazy.
Speaker 2: I mean it was universally like this is insane again,
Speaker 2: not a mac Jones guy. I do understand. If I'm
Speaker 2: mac Jones, like what he's been at Alabama, he knows
Speaker 2: what normal looks like, and that ain't normal.
Speaker 1: You know what it's I often use sports to guide
Speaker 1: me through some of my business stuff. And you know,
Speaker 1: like I watched Greg Popovich refuse to embrace the three pointer.
Speaker 1: I watched Bill Belichick refuse to pivot, unlike Saban, to
Speaker 1: a more offensive quarterback friendly team. And it is interesting
Speaker 1: in the business books that I peruse over the course
Speaker 1: of a year. I like business. I always have. Not
Speaker 1: necessarily a business person, but I enjoy reading about the
Speaker 1: structure of it and the architecture of businesses and the
Speaker 1: ascension of a business, especially since I created the volume
Speaker 1: and almost too a business. The successful companies that fail,
Speaker 1: people don't get dumb, They just get arrogant, and they
Speaker 1: start believing John in the culture more than talent. You know,
Speaker 1: Mike Krzyzewski got very precious on the One and Done.
Speaker 1: Remember for years, Duke would not hang your jersey unless
Speaker 1: you graduated. And then, you know, Mike finally said that
Speaker 1: all these one and done guys, they all beaded me.
Speaker 1: Mike was like, Okay, I'm pivoting. Saban pivoted when he
Speaker 1: got laying Kiffin on the staff. That program first seven
Speaker 1: years was built on linebackers safe these corners. Then they
Speaker 1: went all in on five star wide receivers and quarterbacks
Speaker 1: on left tackles. Is that when I look at Bill Belichick,
Speaker 1: he didn't get dumb. He but when you fall in
Speaker 1: love with your culture. I remember when I started the
Speaker 1: volume I talked to I emailed a couple of different people,
Speaker 1: successful business guys, and almost three people, a woman and
Speaker 1: two men, and very successful people, and they all said
Speaker 1: the exact same thing. Separately. I said, give me one
Speaker 1: piece of sage advice, and they all said, be willing
Speaker 1: to pivot, don't fall in love with your ideas of
Speaker 1: your culture. Whatever works, double down what doesn't get off
Speaker 1: it immediately. And when I watch the Patriots, I mean,
Speaker 1: you're a former scout, you have people in the building.
Speaker 1: That's why I think DeAndre Hopkins is sort of an
Speaker 1: acknowledgment in Juju Smith Schuster. Hey, I got to get
Speaker 1: this right, like I fed up last year. That's what
Speaker 1: d hot feels like to me. Well, I think there's
Speaker 1: some tangible pressure. I mean there's always been rumors in
Speaker 1: NFL circles. Bill doesn't exactly treat the.
Speaker 2: Craft family normal like coach ownership hierarchy, maybe an equal
Speaker 2: or maybe in some instances even above. Yeah, that's that works.
Speaker 2: When you're going fourteen and two every year, right, and
Speaker 2: win the Super Bowl every other season and win in
Speaker 2: six and whatever seventeen years, going to ten AFC championship games.
Speaker 2: It's a different story when you're struggling to make the
Speaker 2: seventh wild card, right, and when you do, you lose
Speaker 2: by seventy five points to the Bills, or you don't
Speaker 2: make the playoffs, and you look around and you start
Speaker 2: making moves like that. I was also thinking about I wonder,
Speaker 2: you know, the older you get, especially some of these
Speaker 2: coaches or even business people in their seventies, it's probably
Speaker 2: harder if you kind of lean negative. And Bill can
Speaker 2: be a little negative curmudgeon. Think about some of the
Speaker 2: successful guys right now, Andy Reid mid sixties, kind of happy, right,
Speaker 2: Pete Carroll a little more positive. There's something to just
Speaker 2: be positive every day. It's a little harder is now
Speaker 2: we're several years removed from Tom Brady. A lot of
Speaker 2: the guys that were around Tom Edelman, mccordy, they're gone.
Speaker 2: So these guys don't know what twenty sixteen was like.
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean anything to a lot of the guys
Speaker 2: on the Patriots, right, And then you got this coach
Speaker 2: who just is a hard ass every day driving you
Speaker 2: through one thing with Nick Saban just there's a churn
Speaker 2: in college and he hasn't had the lows. I mean
Speaker 2: his low is like eleven wins, losing in the SEC
Speaker 2: championship game, right or something. You know, bill last couple
Speaker 2: of years. For their standards, there's a it's like a
Speaker 2: Grand Canyon wide gap. And I don't think he just
Speaker 2: not that he's not an optimistic Obviously he knows what
Speaker 2: he's doing, but he's tough man to be around on
Speaker 2: a daily basis. The negativity people handled it because they
Speaker 2: also don't pay as much in terms of coaches assistant
Speaker 2: coaches historically. You know, they try to be cheap with
Speaker 2: the players historically. And it's like it's one thing when
Speaker 2: you're winning, just like in any industry, if you're going
Speaker 2: to be part of a lot of success and you're
Speaker 2: eventually going to benefit on the back end, you're like,
Speaker 2: I can handle this, right, I can handle this crime.
Speaker 2: But when it's not working, like what am I doing
Speaker 2: this for? You started looking at yourself in the mirror
Speaker 2: and a lot of people turn on you.
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to pivot US Open. In Los Angeles,
Speaker 1: John hosts our golf podcast, Go Loo Podcast, Cool Merch.
Speaker 1: John is his real passion. He just happens to be
Speaker 1: great at football. His real passion is golf, and you
Speaker 1: can tell when you listen to him. So I'm going
Speaker 1: to lean into you on this. There are certain courses
Speaker 1: that benefit certain players. So in the when I think
Speaker 1: of US Open, I think of the rough as deeper.
Speaker 1: This is the American Championship.
Speaker 2: You're going to have to earn it.
Speaker 1: Are there players? When you look at the US Open,
Speaker 1: give me a couple of guys who are built to
Speaker 1: win and.
Speaker 2: Open well kepka is I mean you typically it's really
Speaker 2: really hard. Based on Thursday, it was relatively easy. Now
Speaker 2: they can trick it up really quick. You know, they
Speaker 2: cannot water greens. They can they have the ability to
Speaker 2: grow grass at rapid rates. I mean the rough can
Speaker 2: you know change quickly? You saw Ricky Fowler. One thing
Speaker 2: is and I haven't played much golf. I haven't played
Speaker 2: any golf in Florida. There's a huge differs in the
Speaker 2: way grass your club received at the highest level. I
Speaker 2: mean me, you the average guy, even if they're shooting
Speaker 2: in the seventies, can't tell. But at the pro level.
Speaker 2: It's why California guys typically have success on the California Swing,
Speaker 2: Pebble Beach, Tory Pines. This today, Ricky Fowlers, Andershoffley born
Speaker 2: and raised in southern California. Last before we hopped on,
Speaker 2: Phil Mickelson was like fourteen holes. He was three hunderd
Speaker 2: par California guy still lives out here, so you're very
Speaker 2: comfortable with the grass. Now, this isn't your typical where
Speaker 2: if you're off the fairway, you're dead. They've never played
Speaker 2: this course before. You see Zilloy The Spelling mansion is
Speaker 2: on Hoole fourteen. It's for sale right now for one
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty five million dollars. So the monthly payment
Speaker 2: is close to a million dollars. The monthly taxes are
Speaker 2: like one hundred and twenty grand. But this is somewhat
Speaker 2: of a unique venue because they've never been here and
Speaker 2: they might never come back. But I think typically it's
Speaker 2: it's guys that are smart. There is a kind of
Speaker 2: like a belichicker, and you've got to have strategy. Tiger
Speaker 2: was the greatest strategist ever. Phil could be a little
Speaker 2: loosey goosey. It's why he's never won a US Open
Speaker 2: and blown it a couple of times. I think Koepka,
Speaker 2: you know, it's weird. He looks like like a football
Speaker 2: player something, but he's actually a pretty boring golfer. Hits
Speaker 2: a lot of fairways, hits a lot of greens, doesn't
Speaker 2: screw up. It's why he wins these big tournaments. Rory
Speaker 2: one of the knocks on him for being one of
Speaker 2: the most talented guys ever, a little phillish, not always
Speaker 2: the greatest decisions, you know, the talents there, And I
Speaker 2: think US Opens historically, we'll see how this thing plays out.
Speaker 2: It usually kills you when you make a bad one hole,
Speaker 2: can ruin your tournament.
Speaker 3: Right this.
Speaker 2: You know, you're down there right now. It looked a
Speaker 2: little overcast today, so the sun's not baking, which maybe
Speaker 2: actually can lead to softer courses. Usually when that sun,
Speaker 2: you know, bakes, hardens out the fairways, hardens out the green.
Speaker 2: But these guys, these superintendents, these people that run these
Speaker 2: courses now, especially in a place like that, that they
Speaker 2: will not like these low scores, they're gonna want to
Speaker 2: They're gonna want to hump of these guys, you know,
Speaker 2: eighty five Bears style the next couple of days. So
Speaker 2: it'll be very fascinating Friday Saturday if they if they
Speaker 2: try to hit them in the teeth with them curveballs.
Speaker 1: So the players that didn't defect to the Live Tour,
Speaker 1: you know, like Rory McElroy, My take was always that
Speaker 1: Phil Mickelson complained for years, as did Greg Norman, about
Speaker 1: the treatment of star players every other entertainment business, NBA, music, Sony,
Speaker 1: movie studios. You take care of your stars golf too,
Speaker 1: So you know, it wasn't a shock when Phil bolted
Speaker 1: to the Live Tour. If I would have guessed who
Speaker 1: would have bolted, I would have said Greg Norman's gonna
Speaker 1: run it. Phil's gonna bolt. But for the players that
Speaker 1: didn't defect going forward, what do you think is reasonable
Speaker 1: compensation to show up because you have to take care
Speaker 1: of some of these guys, especially now that the PGA
Speaker 1: scolded golfers that departed and defected and now took the money.
Speaker 2: You know, it's weird. A lot of the reaction over
Speaker 2: the last ten days has been those guys got screwed.
Speaker 2: I don't think the top end guys regret making their decision.
Speaker 2: You know, Roy McElroy, John Rahm, Jordan Speith, these guys
Speaker 2: were worth nine figures, so the money at their level,
Speaker 2: not that it wouldn't have Justin Johnson likes his life,
Speaker 2: but Dustin Johnson was kind of over it. Keopka didn't
Speaker 2: play that much beside the majors and care ever, So
Speaker 2: what I think is going to be fascinating is that
Speaker 2: it was not sustainable the way it was going. Right.
Speaker 2: It's a little like the NBA. You know, ten to
Speaker 2: fifteen players. We talk a lot about like the top
Speaker 2: ten players, it's really the top three or four to
Speaker 2: carry the league. Right in golf it was It's always
Speaker 2: been the top three or four guys in any era
Speaker 2: that carry the sport. And then you create stars by
Speaker 2: the next seven to twenty guys when they battle those guys,
Speaker 2: and if you ever beat them, you become a star.
Speaker 2: Like Jokic, how do you become a star certain knocking
Speaker 2: off the top guys and now we view him as
Speaker 2: an equal. But without his ability to beat those top guys,
Speaker 2: we wouldn't quite know how to gauge it. So the
Speaker 2: splintering of golf, which is much more niche than our
Speaker 2: team sports in America, it was never gonna work. And
Speaker 2: they're going up against an entity with unlimited money. So
Speaker 2: I have a buddy that works in Wall Street that
Speaker 2: text me. He's like, you know that the Saudi's have
Speaker 2: like sixteen trillion in untapped oil. I mean, their wealth
Speaker 2: is unlimited, and golf I think they overextended themselves to
Speaker 2: try to compete against because they were going to their sponsors,
Speaker 2: who are some of the biggest companies in America, asking
Speaker 2: them to double down, and the guy's like, well, you're
Speaker 2: not producing double the why would I give you double
Speaker 2: the amount I'm already giving you, which is a lot
Speaker 2: of money. It wasn't adding up. So the merger and
Speaker 2: as you see j Monahan, I don't know if you
Speaker 2: saw the headline the last twenty four hours, but he
Speaker 2: took a leave of absence probably I mean stress you know,
Speaker 2: this is something I think that was There are so
Speaker 2: many variables on this, but ultimately I don't know, like
Speaker 2: what are you just going to put everyone on salary?
Speaker 2: Which might be which might have and now that they're
Speaker 2: no longer in a I think it's called a five
Speaker 2: oh one CE for tax benefits, which they're not going
Speaker 2: to do any and they haven't been able to just
Speaker 2: put Tiger Phil Rory, you know, pay him like I
Speaker 2: don't know, Steph for Lebron or Aaron Judges, pay them
Speaker 2: thirty thirty five million dollars a year and then whatever
Speaker 2: else you win. And that's the Sadis had the ability
Speaker 2: to do. But I also think some of those guys,
Speaker 2: like the thing with golf, to have a legit tournament,
Speaker 2: you have to have access to the courses, and the
Speaker 2: Sadis were never going to have access to any good
Speaker 2: course because of the country clubs were all in a
Speaker 2: weird way integrated with the money guys and they didn't want,
Speaker 2: they don't need the Sadis. And then the public courses,
Speaker 2: the PGA Tour, the pebble beaches you go around the
Speaker 2: country are in business with the PGA Tour.
Speaker 1: All I know is this, there's like four golfers in
Speaker 1: this country, Phil Brooks, Rory and then Dustin Johnson. If
Speaker 1: they're competing Sunday, I'm in and And now I'd theorize
Speaker 1: if Tiger was in his prime, you maybe don't have.
Speaker 2: To merge, and he's an all time outlier. You're right,
Speaker 2: given the sport, I mean, Michael Jordan's more likely to
Speaker 2: come again than in golf. We ever see a Tiger Woods.
Speaker 2: It was not sustainable, the model, the volume,