WEBVTT - Mike DeVries on Designing Affordable Golf and Learning from Maxwell and MacKenzie 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.880 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:08.119 Today we have golf course architect Mike Davrees on the podcast. 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:10.959 We did an earlier episode a couple of years ago 0:00:11.000 --> 0:00:14.680 with Mike. Since then, I've played all of his North 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:18.040 American golf courses, so I felt like it was time 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:21.480 to talk to him since I've seen all his work 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:25.160 here and hopefully I'll go to see Cape Wickham sometime soon. 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:29.600 But Mike has designed some really good golf courses across 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:32.440 in North America. If you're in the Michigan area, there 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:36.120 is a tremendous Mike Divrees golf trip. He's got three 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:39.120 courses in the Grand Rapids area, He's got Gray Walls 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:43.040 and obviously then Kingsley Club up in Traverse City. Gray 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:45.920 Walls is up in the Upper Peninsula. So we talked 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.160 to Mike about about those projects, what else is going 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.480 on in his life? And uh, without further ado, here 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:53.400 is Mike Direes. 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:56.400 I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset when 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:58.520 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:58.600 --> 0:00:59.840 And when I find my ball. 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:05.479 In ag egg fried egg egg egg bright egg, Lie, 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:20.040 I'm about ready to run off the Well, I'll ask 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:23.959 you my favorite, you know, my favorite test question. What's 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:25.200 what's your favorite fruit? 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:34.520 Oh, let's see, it's interesting. Uh probably blueberries. 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:37.520 Blueberries, Yeah, I haven't ever gotten that. 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:42.480 Respond either, Well, it's either that or maybe black raspberries. 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:46.440 Black raspberries. I've never even seen a black raspberry. 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.040 It's like a red raspberry with black or really really 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:49.760 dark purple. 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:52.720 People probably confuse them for blackberries all the time. 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:56.720 Uh yeah, yeah, so and kind of similar with they 0:01:56.760 --> 0:02:01.080 grow in clusters a lot easier to like pick. So 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:03.920 when you're a kid and you're forced to go out 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:06.400 and like pick fruit with your you know, with your 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:08.920 mom in the summer because she's gonna make jam, which 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:11.079 is not a bad thing, but you know, as a kid, 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:13.200 you want to be doing something else. Well, when there's 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:15.840 black raspberries, you can grab a handful at once. It's 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.600 a lot better eating and a lot better war material 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:20.000 when you're you know, there with your brother. 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:25.320 I imagine life is a black raspberry is uh is 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:27.280 frustrating because they're always confused. 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:30.560 Probably, yes, very underrated. 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:33.720 That's that I haven't I haven't even heard of a 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:39.360 black raspery. I'm gonna have to do some investigator. So 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:44.079 you you've built I guess everybody likes to talk about 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:50.160 municipal and public golf and affordable public golf, and I 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:53.200 don't know if there's a living architect that's built more 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:58.880 affordable and compelling public golf with your work here in Michigan. 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:02.600 And I just I'm just curious that you know, you've 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:07.960 you've built Kingsley Club. Also you've built Cape Wickham and 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:11.880 you know, world class golf courses and gray walls obviously 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:14.400 I think falls in the same bucket. Is there anything 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:18.000 that you go about differently when you're building course like 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:20.679 say Diamond Springs from Kingsley. 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:25.280 Well, certainly, I mean you've got to consider getting people 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:27.240 around and if it's going to be public play and 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:32.160 there's a certain amount of play going on, you've got 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.880 to be cognizant of, you know, the flow of that 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:38.560 golf course, making sure that there aren't some you know, 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:42.520 unusual bottlenecks and things like that. And you can't always 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:46.000 predict that. You know, everybody has this formula. You know, 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:47.680 you have to start out and you can't have a 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:50.440 par three in the first three holes and stuff. Well, 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:52.720 there's a lot of great golf courses that blow that 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:56.200 out of the door. So that's maybe not necessarily the 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:58.880 best golf course, and is you know what's your priority 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:02.240 and how you're doing that. So I think for me 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:04.720 it's still everything has to be interesting and compelling. 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:06.960 That's the first thing. The golf has got to be 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:07.480 really good. 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:11.680 I mean, you could, you know, make something super cheap, 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:16.320 you know, inexpensive to maintain, inexpensive to play, gets people 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:19.560 around all the time. But if it's not interesting or 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:23.760 there's no intrigue at all and the golfer's part, not 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:25.600 many people are going to play it, so then that's 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:29.240 a failure. So you still have to keep For me, 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:31.240 you still have to make it interesting. You have to 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:35.080 do things that are really really good from a golf standpoint, 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:38.200 and that's that's number one, And then you've got to 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:40.520 figure out how to fit that other stuff in. 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:46.400 Yeah, that was something that I was really We did 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:49.800 Will Knights, who worked for the Frida Egg and I 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:54.120 did the the Grand Rapids Trio of your courses in 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:58.240 that area. I mean we were we were exhausted going 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.680 to Diamond Springs. It was our last stop on the 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:05.320 way back to Chicago, and I mean we both like 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:09.279 just were all of a sudden infused with energy by 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:13.080 the work there. It's one of the courses that's made 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:15.680 one of the biggest impacts on me since I started this, 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.960 because of not only the way it's the design of it, 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:21.400 but the way it was presented. But something I was 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:24.280 enthralled by was the work you did on the flat 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.120 property that you kind of kick the golf course off 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:31.000 on and you know, you have those beautiful ravines that 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:33.840 you kind of held from people for the longest time, 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:35.640 and you get through eight and then all of a sudden, 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:40.080 there's this unbelievable reveal. But those holes won through eight 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:44.400 on this flat land was almost just as you know, compelling, 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:48.520 if not more than the holes that play along that ravine, 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:51.480 which is absolutely stunning and reminded me a ton of 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:52.200 short acres. 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:54.080 Yeah. 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:59.880 So, well, first of all, Chris Schuemaker, he deserves a 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:02.840 lot of credit because it was his project. And after 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:05.000 we had worked at Pilgrim's Run together and he was 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:07.840 the superintendent there and kind of the coordinator for all 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:11.600 the owners, you know guys that worked for the owner stuff, 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.080 he ended up, you know, finding this other project and 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:16.919 wanting to do this and he sort of you know, 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:21.000 evolved into him you know, wanting to co design and 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:22.839 stuff like that. So he deserves a lot of credit 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:25.240 because he was the guy that built it. 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:30.159 You know, every day. I wasn't there every day, and. 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:35.159 So so a lot of the concept, like, for instance, 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:39.880 because he's a superintendent, he's focused in trying to figure 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:43.080 out how to maintain this golf course and do it 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:46.000 on a on a you know, a really tight budget, 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.160 and to make it simple to maintain but still make 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:52.039 it interesting. So the idea of having two cuts of 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:55.400 grass basically three quarters of an inch bluegrass wall the 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:58.800 wall and then bent grass greens you know, was his 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:01.240 and how to carry that kind of stepped out. So 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.960 uh that was something that you know that we worked with. 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:09.720 And you know, you have to figure out, Okay, here's 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:13.760 this big, wide playing space and the average golfer you 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:18.080 hit it anywhere, find his ball really quickly, take it, 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:20.720 you know, hit it, move it up, advance and whatever. 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:23.560 The really good player has to figure out exactly where 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:25.200 he wants to be to try and attack the hole, 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:27.880 you know, or what's you know what that strategy is. 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:31.440 So still you know, building in multiple levels of interest 0:07:31.680 --> 0:07:36.440 or playability or decision making I think is you know, 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:39.080 that's what makes compelling golf, and that's what makes it 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:44.320 more compelling for more people. So the thing that's really 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.400 cool about Diamond Springs properties, you have all these eskers 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:50.840 going across the property and basically an east west direction, 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:54.480 and the clubhouse sits sort of on one of those. 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:59.800 So you've got one T, the base of two green, 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:03.760 three T. 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:02.480 Ten T. 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:04.280 You know, all these things sort of feature off of 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:07.720 one of those, and then they play over and around 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:12.400 another one. So by utilizing those in different ways as 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:17.640 as T spots, green locations, six greens on one of them, 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:20.560 as a as a hazard to you know, drive over 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:22.600 like like on eight. 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:23.360 Yeah. 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:27.680 So all of that works to be really pretty simple, 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:32.520 but in the same breath, it is complex because you're 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:34.440 trying to figure out how to best utilize that. 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:35.920 So that's the fun. 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.280 That's a fun part of trying to figure out the 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:41.840 routing and how things best fit together. But it also 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.760 makes for you know, compelling simple golf. Yeah. 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:50.520 You know, I I couldn't help when I was when 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:52.640 we were playing it that I you know, I was like, 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:56.160 holy cow, Like the whole time I'm walking around the 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:59.360 golf course, thinking about, man, this this place, if you 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.319 gave it a a country high end country club budget, 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:06.839 would be absolutely incredible. But then as I thought more 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:11.080 and more about it, I became, you know, the way 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:15.360 it's presented and maintained is absolutely perfect for you know, 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:20.560 providing affordable and great golf. And the more I thought 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:23.079 about it, I was like, this is actually doing This 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:26.280 is the best iteration of itself in a way because 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:29.680 everybody can go experience it for less than fifty bucks, 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:33.800 which on you know, when you're looking at best values 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:35.679 in the country, that's one of them. And I think 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:39.400 obviously Chris, the way he maintains it is incredible, and 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:42.200 I think some people misunderstand. They go there and they're 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:46.080 expecting the shortcut, but it plays so perfectly, and you know, 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:51.080 the single row irrigation, the native there was essentially I'm 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:54.120 just dropping a fusive praise, but the native there was 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:58.000 what every country club wishes it had its native played like. 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:02.280 And I just I think that place is one of 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:08.199 the you know, the best public golf courses in America 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:12.640 for a lot of reasons, you know, and it's really 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:16.839 enthralling golf course. So something there you know, and I've 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.720 seen a lot of your golf courses. I really love 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:23.440 the the greens that you you there are a lot 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:26.240 of compelling greens in the idea you have a lot 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:29.480 of golf courses is playing away from the pin to 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:34.880 hit it close. Talk about that idea and how tough 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:36.960 it is to get you know, kind of buy in 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:39.400 on that from like the commercial golfer. 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:42.480 Well, I think it's. 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:46.320 You know, if that's the buy in from the commercial 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:50.480 golfer or someone who's going out to play, they may 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:54.360 be they're maybe just confused when they fire at the 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:55.800 pen and all of a sudden the ball moves away 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:58.439 because they didn't you know, they didn't know or they 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:02.080 you know, hadn't really experienced something like that. But I 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:06.240 think multiple plays, you know, over and over, they start 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:09.720 to understand that, Okay, there's a different way to do it. 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.960 There's a different option, or there's a different opportunity on 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.480 how to play golf. So that's how golf is in 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:19.400 the UK, right. So you know, when you're playing links golf, 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:21.680 one of those one of the things there is just 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:23.160 you're trying to figure out how to get as close 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:25.640 to the hole as possible and that's going to vary 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:29.920 depending on the speed of the ground, you know, the 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:32.680 time of year that it is and what's happening. So 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.920 getting the ball there, whenever you watch any old scotsman, 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.680 getting the ball to the hole isn't necessarily, you know, 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:43.800 a one dimensional shot. It's three dimensional. It's first of all, 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:46.880 where you hit the ball, how hard the ground is 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:49.000 when it hits, and then what it does on the 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:52.200 ground after that. So there's all these different factors that 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:55.079 are involved in that. And we can still do that 0:11:55.480 --> 0:12:00.719 even with our americanized maintenance, you know, sort of expectation level. 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:02.760 But I think what we've got to do is, you know, 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:05.240 people just have to be exposed to that, and they 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:07.520 have to like, you know, don't think of it as 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:10.559 tricked up, think of it as Okay, I've got to 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:13.400 think about what's the best way for me to get 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:15.960 the ball close to the whole. So when you can 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:19.360 do that, and when you can emphasize something like that 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:24.360 or give people ways of doing that, they just have 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.559 to experience it. You know, the experience at one time 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:30.640 it's like okay, the second time they get a little 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.760 bit more. The third time, you want their sort of 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:37.520 golf IQ or their experience level to sort of expand 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:38.400 every time they play. 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:41.440 That's the success to like, you know, the great courses. 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:48.400 That's why Marian's fascinating endlessly. You know all the great courses, 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:52.120 Pine Valley, Crystal Downs where I grew up, you know, 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.200 Royal Melbourne, the Old Course or whatever. Every time it's different, 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:59.160 there's something you learn. That's why it's great golf. How 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:02.280 can we bring a small part of that just to 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:07.280 you know, to regular, you know, everyday public public golf. 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:11.280 Yeah, the uh, what you were just talking about made 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:14.440 me think about that passage in the beginning of The 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.400 Links Robert Hunter's book where he talks about playing I 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:19.720 can't remember the guy's name he played with, the old, 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:22.800 you know, gritty player that knew all the ways to 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:24.520 get the ball close to the hole. And you would, 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:26.760 you know, you'd think you were going to beat him 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.000 in a match, and he'd just hit this ridiculous shot 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:32.200 that rolls his way in there. I guess, you know, 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:34.640 one of the things with with golf, I feel like 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:38.160 the world of golf is people are trying to see 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:42.280 everything and they're not, you know, and especially sometimes the 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:46.960 way golf courses are are rated in rankings. Is most 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:49.320 of these people have only played them one time and 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:52.360 and they're missing out on you know, that learning process. 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:54.480 Does that, you know, frustrate you at all? 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:59.240 Ever, well, you want him to play your courses more, obviously, 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:03.800 that's just the way that that's that's the nature of 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.520 the beast though, I guess because some of these places 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:11.200 are Cape Wickham's a destination and as remote as it 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:13.960 is for someone in the US, it's not remote for 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:17.880 someone in Australia because it's a forty minute flight from Melbourne. 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:20.520 So you know, if you think. 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:23.240 About that way, you got four or five six million 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:25.920 golfers there or you know people and a lot of golfers, 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.480 so they have a golf culture there. Same thing with Sydney, 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.080 you know, which is a little further away, but there's 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:34.120 a lot of you know, pretty easy access for people 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:38.800 doing that. So now for the international traveler that goes 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:40.320 and you know, it's a one off deal, they're going 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:42.360 to make one trip to Australia to play golf kind 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:44.760 of in their life. Maybe yeah, maybe they're only going 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:47.160 to play it at one time. They're going to want 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:49.560 to play it maybe more, you know, maybe they're going 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:51.520 to go there. That's why I always try and tell 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:54.920 people too. It's like, you know, try and spend a 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.080 night there, get you know, because it changes day to 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:00.320 day too. The weather changes day to day. Going to 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:01.920 have a blowy day and you can have like a 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:05.480 mildly blowy day, but if you're there for two days 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:08.160 or three days, you're going to get all different kinds 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.040 of sort of fields of the golf course just because 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:12.680 the weather and the weather changed from the morning to 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:16.120 the afternoon easily just depends on how it is. And 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:18.800 that's kind of the nature of links golf. You know, 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.880 squalls come through the ocean has its own sort of 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:24.480 deal and that that helps, and that makes it even 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:25.800 more variable and more fun. 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:29.600 Talk about a little bit, you know, designing with it. 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:31.640 Do you do you when you're laying out a golf 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:34.640 course or do you keep that weather in mind with 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.640 wind and stuff when you're you know, putting together you 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:38.360 know you're routing. 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.000 Yeah, well, first of all, you have trent, you have 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.600 you know what's the predominant wind. So okay, it's a 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:51.040 westerly or southwesterly, and you know it blows hard and 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:52.920 you know X amount of time or whatever you know, 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:55.840 some places are different than others, so you're always trying 0:15:55.840 --> 0:16:01.000 to think about that variable. But in reality, weather changes 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:06.000 so so here in Michigan because primarily because of Lake 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:09.320 Michigan and the fact, and you know what kind of 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:11.640 impact that has on our weather because most of the 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:15.200 stuff comes from the west or the southwest, and in 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:19.160 the summertime, probably sixty percent of the weather comes from 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:21.440 the wind comes from the south to the southwest kind 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:23.880 of pushing that way. But when you get to the 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:26.680 fall or the springtime, you know, it'll turn around and 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:29.440 it comes out of the north and northwest and pushes 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:31.520 hard that way. So that's maybe a third of the time, 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:34.960 you know, off season. So you have to think about 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:41.040 those those general sort of guidelines. And that's as relevant 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:44.600 as something that's right right on the coast, you know, 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:48.080 like Crystal Downs versus something that's that's inland, maybe only 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:52.240 twelve fifteen miles at Kingsley, or something that's even more interior, 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:54.800 like the courses in Grand Rapids, which are you know, 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:56.200 sixty miles away from the coast. 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:00.480 The routing process is interesting and what you know, one 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:04.359 of the courses there in Grand Rapids, the mind obviously 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:07.760 it was a situation where you had a lot of 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.560 obstacles to deal with road power lines. 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:13.280 In a way? 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:17.679 Do you feel like those how do you work around 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:22.000 big constraints like that? And do you feel like sometimes 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:24.639 that it yields you know, they're the famous line of 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:28.119 constraint yels creativity. Do you feel like it something you 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:31.880 learned something working at at sites that are a little 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:34.360 bit tougher to route right off the bat? 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:41.000 Well, well, you're're constantly learning, so yeah, and constraints do 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:45.720 they come in different in different ways? So big, huge 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:49.120 power you know lines, I mean the big, the big. 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:53.520 Things, not just like a regular and you know, at the. 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:57.359 Minds we're thinking, oh, you know visually that's so you know, 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:00.560 such as scar on the landscape. But for a while 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:02.680 you sort of become immune to that. It's like, hey, yeah, 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:04.720 they're just there, you know, and you kind of deal 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:08.200 with it. So is that like looking at the Southern 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:10.480 Ocean or you know the bass strade It No, it's 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:14.080 not the same thing, right, but but those you know, 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:16.600 you just figure out that, Okay, I've got to work 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:20.320 around those, and that's like a no, you know, no zone. 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:23.200 I mean, we could have put holes underneath those lines 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:25.399 and connected the sections of the property a little bit 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:27.800 better because there's kind of four sections, three for the 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.639 main golf course and then there's another another section down 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:34.480 near the range for a future part three hopefully. But 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:37.280 those are things that you know, I talked with the 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:38.919 owner about, you know, hey, do we want to have that, 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:42.320 and he's like, no, because we don't. Really that's our land, 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.160 but we don't really totally control it because the right 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:47.080 of way and they have to have access and stuff, 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.600 so we didn't we didn't utilize that part of the property. 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:53.400 You know, we just pass under it, which is kind 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:55.560 of a problem because you sort of go from one 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:58.240 section and then you you know, have this big long 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:01.160 walk or cart ride and then you go to another 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.960 section that you got to come back through. So that's 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:09.160 not perfect, it's not ideal, but you just you try 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:11.320 and figure out a way to do that and then 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:14.560 utilize those sorts of things to maybe give you a different, 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:17.520 different feel or different section. It's kind of you know, 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.359 it's an interesting start because you're on one side of 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:23.440 the road going this tunnel over and you play four holes, 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:27.480 four part fours, you know, back and forth. They're parallel 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.439 but the land is moving and changing and doing all 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:32.720 this stuff, and then you got across the road again. 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:35.280 So it's kind of disjointed, but at the same token 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:40.080 it works. And having four part fours to start works also, 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:43.440 just from the stan that they're all really different and 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:44.960 they have different sort of things that you have to 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:49.359 deal with. So the first holes, you know, sort of 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:52.000 semi blind t shot, but then you have this kind 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.399 of cool downhill. You know, look at the green that 0:19:55.480 --> 0:20:00.160 sits across this this gully, no no bunkers. Second holes 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:02.600 like kind of a big up and over Part three, 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:05.840 the third holes like a really difficult green to hit, 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:09.760 maybe too hard, and the fourth is like this short 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.760 driveable Part four, you know, with a pretty good sized 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:16.840 green but like a big valley in front of it, 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:19.359 so a lot of guys can drive the green. But 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:22.520 you know, it's a compelling kind of second shot too, 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:24.520 where you have a half wedge in your hand and 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:25.919 you're hitting up hill and you. 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:29.280 Know, semi blind if you're down below. 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:31.000 It, absolutely it's ale. 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.399 Yeah, So that opening stretch really makes you go wow, 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:38.560 And I mean that that's another great affordable golf course. 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:41.159 It's funny. I had a buddy who really got the 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:44.000 golf bug this summer. He's not, you know, a beginning, 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:47.879 beginning golfer, not like a you know somebody that's and 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:50.560 he was he works in Grand Rapids, you know, he 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.240 had his headquarter there, but he lives in Chicago. So 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:56.000 he goes up to Grand Rapids a ton and he 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:58.200 was telling me, oh, I'm playing in this court. I'm like, hey, 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:00.360 you should go check out the mines. And next time 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:02.960 I saw him, he's like, that place is unbelievable. And 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:05.000 he's like, and it's only like ten bucks more than 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:07.520 the place I was playing, And it was just it 0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:10.840 was just a cool moment to have, you know, where 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:14.159 he doesn't know why he likes the minds more than 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:16.359 the other course he was playing, but he knows there's 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:19.359 something different about it. And I think that's one of 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:22.359 the neat things with architecture. Even if people can't articulate it, 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:24.920 a lot of times they can they can under they 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:27.640 understand it at a at a you know, a core 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:30.040 level when they see something different. 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:33.720 So and he's a real beginning golfer, I mean just 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:36.400 kind of started playing, you know, picking the game up, 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:39.600 which is cool, which is neat to hear that. You know, Wow, 0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:42.480 I don't really understand why I like this, but this 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:45.480 is more compelling, you know. And maybe it's because of 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:47.640 the lands, because there are some cool landscapes and some 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:52.359 wild stuff there. But at the same token, you know, 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:55.760 ten bucks is ten bucks, right, So if he's just 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:57.840 trying to learn the game, that's cool that he's turned 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:00.640 on by something like that. I mean, to me, that's 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.160 like a super high compliment. That's that's fun to see 0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:03.680 that happen. 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:06.639 Yeah, it's funny. He like, you know, I must have 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:09.440 told him that Midsummer because he was like, I've played 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:12.919 the mines like fifteen times. When next time I saw him, 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:14.679 I was like, well you should try. He's like that 0:22:14.720 --> 0:22:17.679 one's a little too far away. But it's uh, you know, 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:21.840 the it is an interest from my perspective too, I 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:24.240 love you know, because you you listen to him talk 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:27.200 about it, and it's a different perspective than I would have, 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:30.520 you know, but it is uh, you know, ringing endorsement, 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:33.639 and that's what you're kind of looking for. So with 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:37.640 growing up at Crystal Downs and having seen a lot 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:40.200 of your work and now seeing a lot of Maxwell's work, 0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:45.280 it's it's very evident that you the influence that Perry 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:48.360 Maxwell had on your on your like just talking about 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:51.600 the first four holes that at the mines, it reminds 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:53.840 me a lot of some of Maxwell's holes and how 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:56.680 they kind of drape over the land and the blindness 0:22:56.680 --> 0:22:58.920 of the first shot and the way and then obviously 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:01.919 when you look at the greens, I'd love you know, 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:07.040 you consulted for years at Mackenzie's course Metal Club, and 0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:10.120 then you grew up working grounds at Perry Maxwell, at 0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:14.960 Perry Maxwell Mackenzie's Crystal Downs. Can you contrast the difference 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:19.320 between the mackenzie courses that Maxwell was, you know, essentially 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:22.160 the construction foreman and those with Hunter. 0:23:24.040 --> 0:23:24.879 Yeah, So the. 0:23:26.680 --> 0:23:28.680 It's a really well, it's a it's a small subset. 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:32.360 It's really Crystal Downs and the University of Michigan golf 0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:35.199 course where Maxwell was really more involved. I mean, he 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:37.000 may have done some other stuff, but that was that 0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:41.680 was sort of the major impact. So the bunkering style 0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:45.480 is a little bit different, the use of like you know, 0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:47.440 donut holes, which you see and it's like some other 0:23:47.480 --> 0:23:50.399 Maxwell stuff, you know, in donut bunkers you see that. 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:53.560 So that's a little bit different as far as how 0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:59.800 they do that stuff. I think he also, you know, 0:23:59.840 --> 0:24:02.040 he he's known for his severe greens and stuff that 0:24:02.080 --> 0:24:04.919 he did when he did renovation work. You know, he 0:24:05.000 --> 0:24:09.080 built heavily contoured greens. And you know, we weren't talking 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:11.680 about stimping at X Y or Z and things like that. 0:24:12.040 --> 0:24:15.040 But the things that's interesting about that also is that 0:24:16.080 --> 0:24:18.440 we talk about speed a lot, and we assigned this 0:24:18.480 --> 0:24:23.479 STEMP meter reading to him. We're just capable of of 0:24:25.080 --> 0:24:30.760 manicuring grass to you know, such a fine fine margin 0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:34.600 of error that that's really different than it was eighty 0:24:34.680 --> 0:24:38.480 or one hundred years ago. But downhill down green on 0:24:38.480 --> 0:24:41.000 one of those old greens was super fast. It was 0:24:41.040 --> 0:24:43.480 thirteen or fifteen on the stimpmeter and going uphill was 0:24:43.520 --> 0:24:47.000 like three. So there was there was a lot more variability. 0:24:47.040 --> 0:24:48.680 You had to kind of figure that kind of stuff 0:24:48.720 --> 0:24:52.439 out too. That's local knowledge. That's like knowing where to 0:24:52.520 --> 0:24:55.119 miss on the green because if I'm going downhill, I 0:24:55.160 --> 0:25:03.040 have no chance, right so I think and Metal Club 0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:06.080 being the first thing that they did in America that 0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:09.879 Mackenzie did in America, and that was kind of hitt 0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:15.040 the beginning of his evolution with Robert Hunter. You know, 0:25:15.080 --> 0:25:17.360 I think mackenzie was in you know, he was around more. 0:25:17.400 --> 0:25:19.560 He was more involved with the stuff in California because 0:25:19.560 --> 0:25:22.920 he was nearby than say it, you know, the stuff 0:25:22.920 --> 0:25:28.159 here in Michigan with with Maxwell. So Maxwell, maybe you know, 0:25:28.200 --> 0:25:33.200 he's executing or carrying out certain things with less direction 0:25:33.680 --> 0:25:38.520 or less direct injection maybe from from McKenzie. 0:25:38.640 --> 0:25:41.399 But I think. 0:25:42.720 --> 0:25:47.199 Robert Hunter also had you know, less experience, you know, 0:25:47.280 --> 0:25:50.919 he wasn't Maxwell was already doing stuff, so he was 0:25:50.920 --> 0:25:53.479 already involved and he was sort of already dabbling in it, 0:25:53.520 --> 0:25:57.560 and that's how he got it, got involved with with 0:25:57.560 --> 0:26:02.760 with Alister, and the Hunter's deal was, you know, it 0:26:02.840 --> 0:26:05.320 was more of this sideline and stuff like that. So 0:26:05.400 --> 0:26:09.200 I don't know, I don't know enough about Robert Hunter 0:26:09.320 --> 0:26:15.080 and how directly you know, he was implementing or or 0:26:15.800 --> 0:26:20.159 you know, personally like executing certain things. So that's a 0:26:20.160 --> 0:26:24.119 little bit different, whereas like Maxwell was the guy on 0:26:24.200 --> 0:26:27.120 the ground every day. He came to Michigan for three summers. 0:26:28.000 --> 0:26:30.720 The first year in twenty nine they built the Front nine. 0:26:30.760 --> 0:26:33.480 Then the crash hit, and then it took a couple 0:26:33.880 --> 0:26:35.480 you know, a couple more summers to build it just 0:26:35.520 --> 0:26:37.520 because of lack of labor funds. 0:26:37.560 --> 0:26:37.960 It sent me. 0:26:38.000 --> 0:26:40.680 It's a miracle that got it done. Now, there's also 0:26:40.680 --> 0:26:42.800 a rumor that, you know, he had a girlfriend up 0:26:42.800 --> 0:26:47.359 here because he was widowed, so so you know, maybe 0:26:47.400 --> 0:26:49.280 that was the incentive to come back for a couple 0:26:49.320 --> 0:26:51.720 more years. It's hard to say. 0:26:52.160 --> 0:26:56.760 And there's a similar story with tilling Hass in Minneapolis, 0:26:56.760 --> 0:26:59.200 Like why tilling Hass got to Minneapolis a few times, 0:26:59.200 --> 0:27:03.960 it is because he had either a mistress or a 0:27:04.000 --> 0:27:07.640 girlfriend there. I don't remember the exact story, but I never. 0:27:07.480 --> 0:27:09.440 I never heard about that about Tilly. Yeah. 0:27:09.800 --> 0:27:12.520 So, but that's why there's a few courses in Minneapolis 0:27:12.560 --> 0:27:16.880 that are telling Hals or Minnesota in general, because he had, 0:27:17.080 --> 0:27:19.000 you know, somebody that he was going to visit there 0:27:19.040 --> 0:27:24.040 all the time. Talk a little bit about of U 0:27:24.080 --> 0:27:27.119 of MS. Course I got to see that this summer 0:27:27.160 --> 0:27:32.200 and can it what's there now? And in some stuff 0:27:32.240 --> 0:27:35.040 that stands out in terms of of of what it 0:27:35.080 --> 0:27:35.560 could be. 0:27:37.280 --> 0:27:41.879 Uh well, again, it's a phenomenal set of greens, really 0:27:41.880 --> 0:27:45.880 really good greens. They're all a little bit smaller than well, 0:27:45.920 --> 0:27:49.879 with exception of ten, but ten's expanded in an section 0:27:49.960 --> 0:27:52.880 where it wasn't. So they're all a little bit smaller 0:27:52.880 --> 0:27:56.640 than they were originally, and some significantly smaller than they were. 0:27:56.920 --> 0:28:00.399 So they've lost a lot of that green and and 0:28:00.480 --> 0:28:02.840 hopefully we're going to be able to restore that. I 0:28:02.840 --> 0:28:09.320 did the plan in twenty eleven or twelve or something 0:28:09.320 --> 0:28:12.440 like that, and we need a donor, so anybody that's 0:28:12.440 --> 0:28:16.800 a big UFM fan and wants to donate. It seems 0:28:16.800 --> 0:28:19.400 like donors want to put their name on buildings, not necessarily, 0:28:19.440 --> 0:28:22.359 you know, for the golf course, So we need that 0:28:23.760 --> 0:28:25.639 and hopefully that's going to happen and it's going to 0:28:25.680 --> 0:28:29.440 be committed. But the greens are really exceptional. The ground 0:28:29.480 --> 0:28:31.840 is also a really interesting. 0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:31.880 Piece of lants. 0:28:31.960 --> 0:28:34.359 Yeah, this high point in the middle of the property, 0:28:35.080 --> 0:28:37.560 sort of low at the clubhouse where it's at, and 0:28:37.600 --> 0:28:39.720 then low at other portions where it goes down and 0:28:39.720 --> 0:28:44.440 then goes back up. So the thing that Mackenzie always 0:28:44.440 --> 0:28:47.280 did was that he worked around those landforms and he 0:28:47.360 --> 0:28:50.800 built things valley clubs like one of the best examples 0:28:50.840 --> 0:28:53.200 of that, one of the greatest routings here. You play 0:28:53.280 --> 0:28:56.000 one and two, you cross the road and then on 0:28:56.080 --> 0:28:59.920 that stretch of three through eleven. You've got two knobs, 0:29:01.040 --> 0:29:05.600 and like each knob effects four or five holes. You know, 0:29:06.000 --> 0:29:09.560 it's an amazing structure with how that works. Three greens 0:29:09.560 --> 0:29:11.640 at the base of a hill, four t's on that hill, 0:29:11.960 --> 0:29:15.200 five passes by that hill, seven green comes back to 0:29:15.240 --> 0:29:18.400 the base of that hill. Eight his tees off from 0:29:18.400 --> 0:29:21.680 one hill to the next hill, and then ten comes 0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:25.360 by and finishes on that afterwards too, So that one 0:29:25.440 --> 0:29:28.120 hill has three greens around and three sets of teas. 0:29:29.440 --> 0:29:32.040 I mean, it's amazing. It's just one little simple knob 0:29:32.040 --> 0:29:35.160 and everything else is kind of flat. So and he 0:29:35.200 --> 0:29:37.240 did a lot of that at the University of Michigan 0:29:37.280 --> 0:29:40.120 two where he came off of this central spine. So 0:29:40.160 --> 0:29:45.120 the tenth hole goes up the greens up there, seventy 0:29:45.640 --> 0:29:50.760 eighteen T, seventeen green, six green. Just on the other 0:29:50.800 --> 0:29:52.840 side eleven greens, So all of these things, those are 0:29:52.880 --> 0:29:56.160 all within one little section, and then off of the 0:29:56.160 --> 0:30:00.640 spine kind of draped down from that, you still have 0:30:01.000 --> 0:30:06.720 four T, three green, eight green at ninety So it's 0:30:06.760 --> 0:30:09.400 pretty impressive how you know you work off of that. 0:30:09.480 --> 0:30:12.000 It's it's a simple basics, I mean, just trying to 0:30:12.040 --> 0:30:13.520 do that and figuring out how to do that. But 0:30:13.560 --> 0:30:18.480 he did that better than most people. And Maxwell did 0:30:18.520 --> 0:30:21.440 a great job of, you know, of executing and doing that. 0:30:22.440 --> 0:30:25.040 What are some examples of your own work where you've 0:30:25.080 --> 0:30:29.400 taken that type of principle of you know, repeatedly using 0:30:29.960 --> 0:30:32.160 a feature that you liked on one of your sites. 0:30:33.680 --> 0:30:37.040 Well, Kingsley's a pretty good example of that, because like 0:30:37.080 --> 0:30:40.360 when you lead out and you go to to get 0:30:40.400 --> 0:30:42.880 to that South forty which is like holes two through 0:30:42.920 --> 0:30:48.160 seven T, that area there, you know, is really strong 0:30:48.200 --> 0:30:50.800 in itself and trying to figure out how that worked best, 0:30:52.720 --> 0:30:56.800 but to get to that that spine that's two green 0:30:58.320 --> 0:31:01.600 or two T six T. But then that goes across 0:31:01.640 --> 0:31:04.600 and goes further further to the east and that's you 0:31:04.640 --> 0:31:09.680 know two green, four green, three and three and five 0:31:09.840 --> 0:31:13.040 combination T and stuff. So how that sort of thing 0:31:13.200 --> 0:31:15.840 fits in and sort of divides the front nine you 0:31:15.840 --> 0:31:18.120 know from the first hole and then the south forty 0:31:18.200 --> 0:31:21.200 and the split coming down. So those types of things 0:31:21.680 --> 0:31:27.200 recurring and going to that that stuff's really important. Same 0:31:27.240 --> 0:31:29.840 thing kind of that that we think about diamond springs, 0:31:30.040 --> 0:31:33.480 where you use these eskers to like feed off of 0:31:33.520 --> 0:31:37.080 and play onto those particular things. So one goes out, 0:31:37.160 --> 0:31:39.920 two comes back greens at the base of that escer 0:31:40.000 --> 0:31:43.360 right near the clubhouse, which is a nice return. You know, 0:31:43.400 --> 0:31:46.120 if you have a private club and you know you 0:31:46.200 --> 0:31:47.840 just got to play a couple more holes or you're 0:31:47.920 --> 0:31:50.040 just going out, you know, it's nice to have little 0:31:50.040 --> 0:31:52.560 return routes that somehow fit back and come back to 0:31:52.600 --> 0:31:55.320 the clubhouse. It's a public golf so not maybe the 0:31:55.360 --> 0:31:57.200 same thing, but then the third t is right on 0:31:57.280 --> 0:32:01.000 that or the tenth d so you could literally play 0:32:01.040 --> 0:32:03.000 one too and then just skip to ten if you 0:32:03.040 --> 0:32:07.280 wanted to, you know, not play three through you know 0:32:07.360 --> 0:32:11.600 eight or whatever, or three through seven, because kind of ten, 0:32:11.680 --> 0:32:13.440 you could play down ten and you could play eight, 0:32:13.880 --> 0:32:15.880 you could go. I mean, there's different ways of doing that. 0:32:16.040 --> 0:32:19.040 So places that have different multiple routings where you can 0:32:19.120 --> 0:32:23.800 do certain things. I think that's you know, that's a 0:32:23.840 --> 0:32:27.880 complexity that you can add in or you can figure 0:32:27.840 --> 0:32:29.760 Out's like we were talking about with Mark the old 0:32:29.760 --> 0:32:35.920 course at Marquette earlier today, in that the original nine 0:32:35.920 --> 0:32:40.200 holes there is intermixed with the with the holes that 0:32:40.240 --> 0:32:44.280 were added in the mid sixties. So but we could 0:32:44.320 --> 0:32:47.280 go back to the original routing of the front nine, 0:32:47.400 --> 0:32:49.200 and we can have the you know, we can have 0:32:49.240 --> 0:32:52.200 the Langford holes for one set and then have the 0:32:52.240 --> 0:33:00.640 old then the newer nine, well fifty years old, so 0:33:00.680 --> 0:33:02.840 we could we could separate those and then keep them, 0:33:03.520 --> 0:33:05.320 or we could keep them intermixed kind of like they are. 0:33:05.960 --> 0:33:08.320 So it's it's interesting to be able to try and 0:33:08.360 --> 0:33:08.640 do that. 0:33:09.760 --> 0:33:13.200 Yeah, it's uh when you're when you're routing the course, 0:33:13.280 --> 0:33:16.480 I mean, I assume that and tell me if I'm wrong. 0:33:16.520 --> 0:33:20.160 You're thinking about like the cadence of a of a routing, 0:33:20.520 --> 0:33:23.040 you know, where where things kind of fall with relation 0:33:23.160 --> 0:33:26.880 to other holes and and such. And I'm say, say 0:33:26.920 --> 0:33:30.320 somebody just rerouted your course where you have multiple ways 0:33:30.320 --> 0:33:33.200 you could route it, would that kind of is there 0:33:33.360 --> 0:33:36.400 a story that kind of changes if somebody said just 0:33:36.520 --> 0:33:39.200 jumbled up your routing and you know, change the order 0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:41.840 of holes in which you play them. 0:33:43.360 --> 0:33:46.240 Oh, absolutely it does. It affects that a lot. 0:33:46.760 --> 0:33:50.800 So I'm always trying to think about how that cadence 0:33:50.840 --> 0:33:54.480 works from a human's scale, human standpoint and walking the 0:33:54.480 --> 0:33:57.960 golf course. So even if even if most people take 0:33:57.960 --> 0:34:00.400 a golf cart, you've got to think about how that 0:34:00.720 --> 0:34:03.880 flows from you know, someone walking and experiencing the game 0:34:03.920 --> 0:34:08.480 that way. And the interesting thing about that is a 0:34:08.520 --> 0:34:11.759 couple summers ago, I had some guys that came up, 0:34:11.760 --> 0:34:15.959 and these are young fit, you know, thirties. These guys 0:34:16.000 --> 0:34:17.719 go to the gym, they train, they do all this, 0:34:17.800 --> 0:34:19.520 and they take a golf card every time they play golf. 0:34:19.960 --> 0:34:22.160 So one of the guys is really good golfer and 0:34:22.200 --> 0:34:27.600 he's you know, he's gonna walk with me, right, And 0:34:27.640 --> 0:34:30.080 this other guy he's like, oh yeah, it takes it, 0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:32.880 and we're kind of like, you know, his friend started like, 0:34:32.920 --> 0:34:34.879 come on, you walk with us, man, you know, checking out, 0:34:34.880 --> 0:34:38.000 and he's like sort of finally badgered him into walking right. 0:34:38.840 --> 0:34:43.680 And after that day, my friend would tell me he's like, yeah, 0:34:43.719 --> 0:34:45.359 I guess what. He walks all the time. 0:34:45.400 --> 0:34:47.080 Though. He's like, you can't believe how good that is. 0:34:48.200 --> 0:34:51.480 So it's like, you know, he was he was experiencing 0:34:51.520 --> 0:34:53.400 something in a different way that he just hadn't been 0:34:53.400 --> 0:34:57.440 exposed to. So I think from the standpoint that when 0:34:57.440 --> 0:34:59.360 you're designing or you're figuring out the route, you have 0:34:59.400 --> 0:35:02.080 to figure out how that cadence works, because that's going 0:35:02.160 --> 0:35:02.760 to flow better. 0:35:03.560 --> 0:35:05.440 And I think you know. 0:35:05.600 --> 0:35:07.799 There are a lot of golf courses where you have restrictions, 0:35:07.800 --> 0:35:10.720 whether it's a mountain course and there's so much elevation 0:35:10.800 --> 0:35:13.560 that you're going to take a golf cart. But those 0:35:13.600 --> 0:35:17.040 things tend to get disjoined too because oh I got 0:35:17.040 --> 0:35:19.680 a big cart ride, or I'm going through development. You 0:35:19.719 --> 0:35:22.680 may have really a really good collection of holes, but 0:35:22.800 --> 0:35:24.880 that might might not be a really good golf course. 0:35:26.239 --> 0:35:28.480 You know, it's just sort of these separate individual kinds 0:35:28.520 --> 0:35:28.920 of things. 0:35:29.200 --> 0:35:29.480 Now. 0:35:30.280 --> 0:35:32.200 You could say that about the mines too, where we're 0:35:32.239 --> 0:35:34.200 divided up into these sections where you play a group 0:35:34.200 --> 0:35:35.720 of holes and then you've got to have a big walk, 0:35:36.000 --> 0:35:37.880 you know, because we're restricted by the power line of 0:35:37.920 --> 0:35:40.040 the road or something like that. So you try and 0:35:40.040 --> 0:35:41.799 figure out a way to make those things kind of 0:35:41.800 --> 0:35:46.520 work together or make that return a little more reasonable. 0:35:47.000 --> 0:35:48.640 So there, you play one through four, you go buy 0:35:48.680 --> 0:35:51.640 the clubhouse again, Hey, grab a drink or hot dog 0:35:51.719 --> 0:35:54.840 or something like that, and then you know, you go 0:35:54.880 --> 0:35:57.440 out to the back nine. You get this, you know, 0:35:57.520 --> 0:35:59.480 you play four holes, then you play five holes, you 0:35:59.520 --> 0:36:01.359 finish the US again. Then you go and you play 0:36:01.400 --> 0:36:03.520 the back night and you've got to break there where 0:36:03.520 --> 0:36:07.040 you've got to go through after eleven and after seventeen 0:36:07.080 --> 0:36:08.440 to across the power lines. 0:36:09.440 --> 0:36:11.239 Not ideal, but. 0:36:13.239 --> 0:36:15.880 You know that's we sort of were stuck with that, 0:36:16.000 --> 0:36:17.160 so that's what we got to deal with. 0:36:17.600 --> 0:36:20.840 Yeah, let's say, you know, it's an inherited problem with 0:36:21.000 --> 0:36:25.080 just having power lines in that case, as I remember, 0:36:25.120 --> 0:36:28.600 the walk out is a little bit more taxing than 0:36:28.640 --> 0:36:31.520 the walk back. Is that a way that you kind 0:36:31.520 --> 0:36:36.160 of mitigated the two walks from going by the power lines? 0:36:37.360 --> 0:36:40.160 Well, it just happens to be kind of how they fit. Yeah, 0:36:40.200 --> 0:36:45.360 because you're kind of you're more downhill coming back. Yeah, 0:36:45.520 --> 0:36:48.480 And there wasn't it wasn't an easy You had to 0:36:48.520 --> 0:36:50.480 sort of get to that point to sort of start 0:36:50.520 --> 0:36:55.080 the routing of the other holes twelve through seventeen and that. 0:36:55.360 --> 0:36:55.560 You know. 0:36:55.800 --> 0:36:58.279 But when you get there, though, even though it's a 0:36:58.280 --> 0:37:00.799 taxing walk, you kind of like, wow, that's a cool 0:37:00.840 --> 0:37:03.320 hole because you're standing on this hill and you're looking 0:37:03.360 --> 0:37:06.040 down at twelve and you know, you sort of got 0:37:06.040 --> 0:37:08.680 a little glimpse of seventeen when you were kind of 0:37:08.680 --> 0:37:12.560 coming up. There's some trees between them there, but you know, 0:37:12.600 --> 0:37:14.880 you get a sense of wow, Okay, this is this 0:37:15.000 --> 0:37:17.160 is worth it, right, this is neat and then you 0:37:17.200 --> 0:37:18.600 get down to the green and it's like, wow, this 0:37:18.640 --> 0:37:19.239 is really cool. 0:37:20.600 --> 0:37:22.640 That's a cool stretch of holes on that back part 0:37:22.719 --> 0:37:25.799 of the property. Yeah, it's funny when you talked about 0:37:25.880 --> 0:37:29.280 golf and walking. And I've got a lot of college 0:37:29.320 --> 0:37:31.759 buddies that got into the game in the last three 0:37:31.880 --> 0:37:34.880 or four years. And you know, it's funny how you 0:37:34.880 --> 0:37:38.279 know they play with me and I walk, and sure enough, 0:37:38.320 --> 0:37:41.960 like they all walk now, because I think it's almost 0:37:42.000 --> 0:37:45.480 like walking comes from like how you get introduced to 0:37:45.480 --> 0:37:48.880 the game in a way and it or like experiences 0:37:49.000 --> 0:37:53.120 where like you alluded to a king where somebody just 0:37:53.160 --> 0:37:56.680 saw his friend walking and you walking, and they they 0:37:56.719 --> 0:37:59.400 also started walking, And I think that's like really the 0:38:00.040 --> 0:38:04.279 you know, when you talk about people walking more, it's 0:38:04.400 --> 0:38:07.160 just a matter of someone in their peer group walking. 0:38:08.800 --> 0:38:11.319 Yeah, And you know, I grew up taking a golf cart, 0:38:11.680 --> 0:38:13.640 you know, I mean I walked, I mean by myself 0:38:13.680 --> 0:38:15.279 when I was playing like the little nine hole course. 0:38:15.320 --> 0:38:16.920 But when I went with my grandparents, you know, they 0:38:16.920 --> 0:38:20.160 were in a golf cart. So we're playing crystal downs, 0:38:20.200 --> 0:38:22.400 which is not an easy walk. I mean, there's a 0:38:22.440 --> 0:38:24.960 lot of elevation things like that. But we were always 0:38:25.000 --> 0:38:28.480 in a golf cart, and we didn't have caddies. When 0:38:28.480 --> 0:38:30.440 I worked in the pro shop, you know, it was 0:38:30.480 --> 0:38:33.600 basically caddies were gone, carts are in. And there were 0:38:33.719 --> 0:38:36.759 four guys that walked the golf course. They were all 0:38:36.800 --> 0:38:39.000 like eighty years old. It was this one for it 0:38:39.080 --> 0:38:42.440 some and they would come out and they'd pull the 0:38:42.520 --> 0:38:44.600 trolley or I think one of them carried their bag, 0:38:45.280 --> 0:38:48.520 and sometimes they'd walk the front and then ride the 0:38:48.560 --> 0:38:49.960 back or something like that. But they were the only 0:38:49.960 --> 0:38:52.239 guys that walked the golf course. And now we got 0:38:52.239 --> 0:38:53.759 a lot of people that walk the golf course, and 0:38:53.800 --> 0:38:56.200 we have a good caddy program and stuff. And my 0:38:56.320 --> 0:38:59.400 son who's worked in the backroom and caddied and stuff, 0:39:00.200 --> 0:39:01.680 when he goes out and then you know, they can 0:39:01.719 --> 0:39:03.880 grab a cart and you know, speed around and do 0:39:03.920 --> 0:39:08.040 whatever they want. But he walks, and and his buddies 0:39:08.360 --> 0:39:10.400 like walking. You know, they enjoy it. They like the 0:39:10.400 --> 0:39:12.920 camaraderie that you get with that too. When you're in 0:39:12.920 --> 0:39:14.600 a golf cart, you're kind of speeding to the next thing. 0:39:14.600 --> 0:39:16.640 You're only talking to the guy in the cart, and 0:39:16.640 --> 0:39:18.000 then you kind of meet at the greens and the 0:39:18.000 --> 0:39:19.760 t's with the other in your group. 0:39:20.120 --> 0:39:21.440 But if you're walking along. 0:39:22.160 --> 0:39:25.239 You know, and you know, two of you hit to 0:39:25.280 --> 0:39:27.319 the right and to you hit to the left, you know, 0:39:27.400 --> 0:39:29.880 and maybe it's switched different different guys. Doing that, you 0:39:29.920 --> 0:39:32.400 get to like sort of experience and talk about it. 0:39:32.440 --> 0:39:35.359 And golf's a social game, so you know, it makes 0:39:35.400 --> 0:39:36.759 it more enjoyable that way too. 0:39:36.880 --> 0:39:40.560 I think, yeah, there's such a greater sense of you know, 0:39:40.719 --> 0:39:43.399 you're playing with your you know, the guys in your 0:39:43.400 --> 0:39:45.799 group when you're when you're walking together, and that that 0:39:45.920 --> 0:39:49.279 you diverge less in that situation than rather you know, 0:39:49.400 --> 0:39:51.439 the just the guy that you're riding with in the cart. 0:39:52.880 --> 0:39:56.640 And it's it's also you know, walking is actually it's 0:39:56.719 --> 0:39:58.960 also really fast because you're going to your ball and 0:39:58.960 --> 0:40:01.839 you're playing your ball and you're moving on, whereas when 0:40:01.880 --> 0:40:03.759 you're in the cart, a lot of times guys are like, 0:40:04.080 --> 0:40:05.799 you know, they drive over the thing, then wait for 0:40:05.800 --> 0:40:07.719 the other guy. They don't like, leave their guy there, 0:40:07.719 --> 0:40:10.120 and then go to their ball and hit and come back. 0:40:10.680 --> 0:40:14.720 So you know, you can play just as fast unless 0:40:14.760 --> 0:40:18.480 you have these super long walks between you know, greens 0:40:18.520 --> 0:40:21.279 and teas. So it's actually very efficient too. 0:40:23.120 --> 0:40:26.480 Something that stands out to me with the court the 0:40:26.520 --> 0:40:30.840 courses that you've built in Michigan is the superintendents that 0:40:31.520 --> 0:40:34.360 work at them, like Craig Moore who is on the podcast, 0:40:34.480 --> 0:40:38.600 I mean total golf, not how how much goes into 0:40:39.320 --> 0:40:42.200 you know, the present. From that sense, have you had 0:40:42.520 --> 0:40:48.480 experiences where you know, a superintendent maybe less golf inclined 0:40:48.520 --> 0:40:52.640 than say Craig gets you know, the playing conditions, like 0:40:52.680 --> 0:40:57.440 the surfaces and the way it's presented is drastically different 0:40:57.480 --> 0:41:02.040 than say Craig at Gray Wall, where you know, you 0:41:02.080 --> 0:41:04.480 can tell he plays a ton of golf because of 0:41:04.520 --> 0:41:07.759 the way it's presented around and on the greens and 0:41:09.040 --> 0:41:11.640 what he thinks about when he talks about the golf course. 0:41:14.200 --> 0:41:18.360 Yeah, I mean it's yeah, there is a difference guys 0:41:18.400 --> 0:41:20.960 that play golf or you know, grew up playing golf 0:41:21.000 --> 0:41:24.080 and love golf. There's a different way that they sort 0:41:24.120 --> 0:41:27.400 of look at it. I guess I'm you know, I'm 0:41:27.440 --> 0:41:30.000 building the golf courses, you know, with these guys and 0:41:30.080 --> 0:41:32.920 hopefully they're on board, like you know, early on. So 0:41:33.760 --> 0:41:37.279 in Craig's instance, when we were building Kingsley. He was 0:41:37.360 --> 0:41:39.680 one of Dan's assistants and he'd worked with Dan before 0:41:40.280 --> 0:41:42.520 and so he was groomed, you know, kind of into 0:41:42.520 --> 0:41:44.280 that and we were building the golf course and stuff, 0:41:44.280 --> 0:41:47.520 so he saw that process. And when we built Gray Walls, 0:41:48.280 --> 0:41:51.839 he was he was there taking care of the old 0:41:51.880 --> 0:41:56.000 course while we were building it because the superintendent was 0:41:56.080 --> 0:41:59.800 kind of the project manager on that one. So and 0:42:00.000 --> 0:42:03.920 then he went back down state and was maintaining a 0:42:03.920 --> 0:42:06.400 golf course there. And a couple of years later, Pete, 0:42:06.480 --> 0:42:08.960 who was the superintendent that built the Gray Walls with us, 0:42:09.400 --> 0:42:12.880 left and they hired Craig, which was perfect for me 0:42:13.040 --> 0:42:15.719 because you know, he knew exactly what was going on 0:42:15.800 --> 0:42:19.600 and he knew how to dial things in. He's a 0:42:19.640 --> 0:42:22.520 great turf manager and stuff like that. So I think 0:42:22.560 --> 0:42:25.799 part of that has to do with the experience that 0:42:25.840 --> 0:42:29.200 they have, maybe if they're involved in the project early on, 0:42:29.760 --> 0:42:33.160 so they're getting they're getting exposure to what we want 0:42:33.239 --> 0:42:35.560 to do, how we want to do it, and why, 0:42:35.760 --> 0:42:37.680 and they have a lot of input into that too. 0:42:37.800 --> 0:42:39.680 I mean I'm always asking a lot of questions to them. 0:42:39.719 --> 0:42:41.680 You know, hey, I want to do this, how are 0:42:41.719 --> 0:42:46.719 you going to maintain that, and they're like, well, you know, 0:42:46.760 --> 0:42:48.799 if a guy just says no, I can't do that, 0:42:49.760 --> 0:42:53.200 he's probably not the right guy for the job. But 0:42:53.239 --> 0:42:56.480 if there's someone who's trying to figure out a way 0:42:56.520 --> 0:42:58.320 to do it and say, yeah, we could do that, 0:42:58.400 --> 0:43:02.719 but we got to do this, then yeah we can 0:43:02.760 --> 0:43:05.279 do that. You know, he's trying to figure out a 0:43:05.280 --> 0:43:07.279 way to do that. Great example of that is when 0:43:07.320 --> 0:43:10.200 we were doing Kingsley, the seventeenth Hole, which has this 0:43:10.800 --> 0:43:13.839 huge drop off from the ridge and in the landing 0:43:13.880 --> 0:43:16.080 area down in this valley. It's about sixty or sixty 0:43:16.080 --> 0:43:19.200 five feet down this hill. Great sledding hill by the way. 0:43:20.239 --> 0:43:23.440 I've been greywalls and probably sliding hill. 0:43:23.520 --> 0:43:23.800 Yeah. 0:43:23.840 --> 0:43:28.480 Yeah, absolutely. So there was an old gas line going. 0:43:28.520 --> 0:43:31.879 It was full mature, old forest hadn't been cut and 0:43:32.080 --> 0:43:33.879 there was a gas line and a trail that went 0:43:33.880 --> 0:43:36.759 through there, and so you could see this hillside and 0:43:38.160 --> 0:43:40.400 I walked through there with Dan and I said, you know, 0:43:41.040 --> 0:43:43.640 can you maintain this? And he says, you mean, like 0:43:43.719 --> 0:43:46.279 for a fairway And I'm like yeah, he goes, yeah, 0:43:46.320 --> 0:43:47.839 a four wheel drive, I can do that. But I'm 0:43:47.880 --> 0:43:49.319 going to have four wheel drive because all the other 0:43:49.360 --> 0:43:51.520 crazy stuff you're building. So that's okay, we can do it. 0:43:52.840 --> 0:43:55.239 So there you go, there's a solution, right, you just 0:43:55.320 --> 0:43:56.520 have to figure out a way to do it. 0:43:57.560 --> 0:44:02.239 Talk about the challenge of routing courses that are like 0:44:02.360 --> 0:44:06.040 heavily wooded where you can't when you walk around, you're 0:44:06.080 --> 0:44:09.520 looking at dense forest rather than you know, an open 0:44:09.560 --> 0:44:10.360 prairie setting. 0:44:12.800 --> 0:44:15.240 Well, you know, we have topo maps and things, and 0:44:15.320 --> 0:44:18.200 so I'm really good looking at squiggly lines, so that helps, 0:44:18.239 --> 0:44:20.719 but it's always there's always, no matter how good the 0:44:20.719 --> 0:44:23.680 topo maps are, there's always stuff in the ground that 0:44:24.880 --> 0:44:29.000 so Kingsley was it had been clear cut like fifteen 0:44:29.080 --> 0:44:31.800 twenty years before we were there. So it was a thicket, 0:44:31.920 --> 0:44:35.480 I mean it was it was tighten up brush. I 0:44:35.480 --> 0:44:37.279 mean it was im penetral. You couldn't get through it. 0:44:38.040 --> 0:44:41.000 Versus if you have like a full mature like that 0:44:41.080 --> 0:44:44.480 section on seventeen was an old forest that hadn't been cut, 0:44:45.080 --> 0:44:48.400 you can see, you know, kind of what's going on underneath, 0:44:48.440 --> 0:44:51.520 because you know, at that point, if you have mature trees, 0:44:51.600 --> 0:44:53.920 you have high branches and you don't really have a 0:44:53.960 --> 0:44:56.919 lot of low brush. So it's a difference in trying 0:44:56.920 --> 0:45:03.480 to looking at stuff gray walls fully forested, you know, 0:45:03.600 --> 0:45:05.240 some big you know, a lot of big old trees 0:45:05.280 --> 0:45:07.120 and things like that, and then there's all these rockout 0:45:07.120 --> 0:45:15.960 croppings and crazy stuff. So, you know, there we similar 0:45:15.960 --> 0:45:17.960 sort of thing trying to figure out. You know, we 0:45:18.040 --> 0:45:20.080 got up to kind of where the seventeenth Green was, 0:45:20.120 --> 0:45:22.359 which is this really crazy wild green, and there's this 0:45:23.000 --> 0:45:28.200 there's this valley that's left of the green, and that 0:45:28.400 --> 0:45:30.600 was kind of a bunch of hemlock trees up there, 0:45:30.600 --> 0:45:33.000 which are pretty dense, and they they maintained their lower 0:45:33.040 --> 0:45:35.799 branches a lot of times. And I was getting really 0:45:35.840 --> 0:45:39.520 excited looking at this thing. And Pete, the superintendent, was like, 0:45:39.719 --> 0:45:41.839 what do you what do you I'm like, see that 0:45:41.840 --> 0:45:44.200 that's gonna be really cool next to the green. He's like, 0:45:44.239 --> 0:45:46.080 I don't know, I any idea what you're talking about. 0:45:47.120 --> 0:45:49.319 But then when it got built, he goes, oh, now 0:45:49.360 --> 0:45:50.480 I see what you were saying. 0:45:51.120 --> 0:45:51.480 And so. 0:45:53.400 --> 0:45:56.759 Part of that sort of recognizing things finding things in 0:45:56.800 --> 0:46:00.879 the field, so you use the use atopoman. You spend 0:46:00.920 --> 0:46:03.839 a lot of time on the ground and then you 0:46:04.040 --> 0:46:06.520 try and you know, piece all that stuff together and 0:46:06.600 --> 0:46:08.000 figure out the best way for it to. 0:46:07.960 --> 0:46:12.800 Work with you alluded to like sometimes the topo maps 0:46:12.840 --> 0:46:17.239 that doesn't have everything. Is there an instance where you 0:46:18.400 --> 0:46:21.239 say clear cut trees and you found something that just 0:46:21.320 --> 0:46:25.040 made the hole infinitely better that wasn't on a topo map. 0:46:26.760 --> 0:46:27.640 Uh? Yeah. 0:46:27.640 --> 0:46:30.400 So at Kingsley, the thirteenth Green, which is the big 0:46:30.640 --> 0:46:33.640 crazy you know short part four with this huge green. 0:46:33.840 --> 0:46:36.759 The original concept for that was it was going to 0:46:36.840 --> 0:46:39.200 be in the bowl and behind the bowl that's left 0:46:39.200 --> 0:46:41.160 of the green was going to be on that ridge there, 0:46:41.160 --> 0:46:42.680 and it was going to be and that ridges. You 0:46:42.680 --> 0:46:45.279 know that that came up in the topo. I mean, 0:46:45.360 --> 0:46:46.920 we knew there was a bowl, and we knew there 0:46:46.960 --> 0:46:49.000 was this reach, but it was a thicket. It had 0:46:49.040 --> 0:46:52.799 been clear cut and it was really dense, and so 0:46:52.960 --> 0:46:55.239 I was just clearing where the green is. I was 0:46:55.280 --> 0:46:57.960 just clearing the brush off there, and all of a 0:46:57.960 --> 0:47:00.120 sudden there was a lot more micro. 0:47:00.080 --> 0:47:00.880 Stuff in there. 0:47:01.000 --> 0:47:03.320 So you just you're not seen a lot of times, 0:47:03.360 --> 0:47:06.080 depending on how dense the foliage is, and when they 0:47:06.120 --> 0:47:09.160 shoot it, a lot of times they can't. You know, 0:47:09.920 --> 0:47:12.160 there's the general land form, but you can't see the 0:47:12.200 --> 0:47:16.799 micro stuff. And so I'm like, hm, Wow, this is 0:47:16.840 --> 0:47:20.399 really cool. So, you know, I did a little manipulation there, 0:47:20.400 --> 0:47:22.320 but not very much at all. I mean that green, 0:47:23.200 --> 0:47:25.120 you know with the big dip in the middle, the 0:47:25.200 --> 0:47:28.520 dip was there. You know, the backshelf was there, and 0:47:28.600 --> 0:47:30.799 you know, we added little things in to make it, 0:47:30.840 --> 0:47:32.719 you know, to put in these little you know, pin 0:47:32.760 --> 0:47:34.000 locations and things like that. 0:47:34.480 --> 0:47:37.880 But I didn't. I didn't know it was that complex 0:47:38.000 --> 0:47:38.720 or that intricate. 0:47:39.360 --> 0:47:42.600 And basically after clearing it, I was like, Wow, that's 0:47:43.160 --> 0:47:44.000 that's just all green. 0:47:44.040 --> 0:47:44.839 We just got to do that. 0:47:44.960 --> 0:47:48.920 It's totally anti short part four. You know, you're supposed 0:47:48.920 --> 0:47:51.480 to have a small green, little target. It's like we're 0:47:51.520 --> 0:47:53.640 gonna have this huge green, but they're going to be 0:47:53.719 --> 0:47:56.799 small targets within the green. And so that works and 0:47:56.840 --> 0:47:59.839 you know makes it you know, highly variable every day, 0:48:00.400 --> 0:48:01.040 which is cool. 0:48:01.440 --> 0:48:06.160 Yeah, it's and it was like an improvisation in the field. 0:48:06.200 --> 0:48:09.400 Have you ever run into an instance where you know, 0:48:09.480 --> 0:48:12.680 you I'm assuming kind of this is the plan, and 0:48:13.200 --> 0:48:18.120 you've had pushback from a owner on implementing, you know, 0:48:18.560 --> 0:48:20.960 making a change to the you know, plan that they've 0:48:20.960 --> 0:48:23.799 agreed to because you saw something in the field like 0:48:23.840 --> 0:48:25.000 that sense situation. 0:48:28.320 --> 0:48:32.799 Yeah, I'm sure there. I mean there's a lot of 0:48:33.080 --> 0:48:35.400 there's a lot of information that goes back and forth. 0:48:36.000 --> 0:48:36.359 But I. 0:48:38.520 --> 0:48:41.680 You know, owners, you know, it's their baby too, right, 0:48:41.760 --> 0:48:45.239 It's not just my baby. So they certainly have a 0:48:45.239 --> 0:48:48.719 lot of input. And I think that's just a communication thing, 0:48:48.760 --> 0:48:51.640 that's just talking to them about you know, hey, I'm 0:48:51.680 --> 0:48:52.280 seeing this. 0:48:52.280 --> 0:48:54.920 This this doesn't seem to you know, work, and you. 0:48:54.840 --> 0:48:56.799 Know I want to try and you know, massage or 0:48:56.800 --> 0:49:00.160 manipulate this, and you kind of work through that. And 0:49:00.760 --> 0:49:02.719 you know, owners have certain things that they want to 0:49:02.760 --> 0:49:06.799 see and you know it's our it's our job to 0:49:06.840 --> 0:49:10.359 try and you know, achieve that and to give them 0:49:10.920 --> 0:49:13.880 all these things that they want and then also make it, 0:49:14.680 --> 0:49:16.440 you know, do all the stuff that we want to 0:49:16.440 --> 0:49:21.080 do right or something that might you know that we 0:49:21.160 --> 0:49:24.160 feel might make it better or you know, more more interesting, 0:49:24.160 --> 0:49:29.120 et cetera. So yeah, you have you know, there's little 0:49:29.160 --> 0:49:30.680 things here and there. But I got to say, I 0:49:30.760 --> 0:49:33.759 mean the owners I've had have been great. You know, 0:49:33.760 --> 0:49:37.120 they've been super people to work with, and a lot 0:49:37.200 --> 0:49:39.560 of them are you know, very good friends, you know, 0:49:39.760 --> 0:49:41.680 and people that you know that I talked to on 0:49:41.719 --> 0:49:46.040 a regular basis, So you know there's that side of 0:49:46.080 --> 0:49:49.520 it too, you know, and they you know, you build 0:49:49.600 --> 0:49:53.680 trust too, just like anything else. You know, they've probably 0:49:54.000 --> 0:49:57.240 most most owners have not been through the process ever before, 0:49:58.040 --> 0:50:02.120 so you know, they you don't really know what to expect, 0:50:02.560 --> 0:50:05.760 and you know, you when you start like blitzing trees 0:50:05.880 --> 0:50:09.760 left and right, you know, they're kind of like freaked 0:50:09.760 --> 0:50:12.719 out in some ways, and you've got to be like, 0:50:12.800 --> 0:50:14.799 you know, okay, well we've got to open this up. 0:50:14.800 --> 0:50:16.239 We've got to have room to play, we have to 0:50:16.239 --> 0:50:18.280 have sunlight for grat you know, there's all these different 0:50:18.280 --> 0:50:21.520 things that you have to do. In the case of 0:50:21.719 --> 0:50:26.960 number one at Gray Walls, they thought, well, we're going 0:50:27.000 --> 0:50:30.360 to have a tree lined you know, northern Michigan typical 0:50:30.400 --> 0:50:32.560 golf course, right, that's what we want because their other 0:50:32.600 --> 0:50:33.960 golf course is kind of wide open. 0:50:34.480 --> 0:50:35.520 You know, it's pretty gentle. 0:50:35.640 --> 0:50:36.960 There's a lot of movement, and there's a lot of 0:50:37.000 --> 0:50:40.719 cool stuff on the old Langford that I think that 0:50:40.760 --> 0:50:43.920 they didn't necessarily appreciate as much as maybe they are 0:50:44.000 --> 0:50:48.879 getting to now. But we're standing up on that big 0:50:48.960 --> 0:50:51.600 hill and I started clearing all the trees to the 0:50:51.680 --> 0:50:54.520 right of the tee because I know Lake Superiors right 0:50:54.560 --> 0:50:57.080 there and it's you know, it's a couple of miles away, 0:50:57.160 --> 0:50:59.879 but the view is fifty five miles all the way 0:50:59.880 --> 0:51:03.719 to Pictured Rocks. And they're like, oh, you got way 0:51:03.719 --> 0:51:08.400 too many. I'm like, we just got started. Come back tomorrow. 0:51:08.560 --> 0:51:11.440 And then they came back like a day or two later, 0:51:12.080 --> 0:51:13.879 and they said, okay, we'll shut up now. 0:51:16.480 --> 0:51:16.640 You know. 0:51:16.680 --> 0:51:17.880 It was a couple of guys on the board and 0:51:17.880 --> 0:51:20.320 they're really good guys and stuff, but they're like, okay, 0:51:20.360 --> 0:51:23.400 we we we have no idea what we're talking about. 0:51:23.760 --> 0:51:24.439 Just do your job. 0:51:27.080 --> 0:51:31.280 There's a similar story Trey Kemp who redesigned this Stevens 0:51:31.320 --> 0:51:34.719 Park down in Dallas. He cut down a bunch of 0:51:34.760 --> 0:51:37.919 trees and the condo owners behind this tea box were 0:51:37.960 --> 0:51:40.840 like outrage, and he was like, just just hold on, 0:51:41.239 --> 0:51:44.839 and he opened up this view of like the Dallas skyline. 0:51:45.239 --> 0:51:48.120 And it's so funny because he was telling me. He's like, yeah, 0:51:48.160 --> 0:51:50.640 and their property value went up a couple hundred thousand 0:51:50.680 --> 0:51:54.840 dollars and he's like, needless to say, they thank me later. 0:51:54.840 --> 0:51:58.560 Yeah, yeah, thanks for much. Here's a bonus another forty bucks. 0:52:00.320 --> 0:52:02.840 It's funny how like you know they're there are these 0:52:03.160 --> 0:52:06.640 that was an example of an unintended Consequently, like you know, 0:52:06.680 --> 0:52:08.960 they didn't know what was going to happen, and now 0:52:08.960 --> 0:52:12.400 they're they're sitting on you know, way more valuable property. 0:52:12.239 --> 0:52:14.640 That it talk about. 0:52:14.920 --> 0:52:20.040 You know with Greywalls, that dramatic land, you know versus 0:52:20.360 --> 0:52:24.840 a more subtle property. What what the you know what 0:52:24.960 --> 0:52:28.279 dramatic land allows you to do like the pros and 0:52:28.320 --> 0:52:31.640 cons versus a more subtle property where like you know, 0:52:31.800 --> 0:52:34.960 Diamond Springs with with the with the small kind of 0:52:35.160 --> 0:52:38.760 ridges that you were routed over versus you know, large 0:52:38.840 --> 0:52:39.640 scale movement. 0:52:42.280 --> 0:52:47.680 Well, Gray Walls has a lot of both. But it's. 0:52:49.760 --> 0:52:52.200 There's a lot of restrictions at gray Walls too because 0:52:52.360 --> 0:52:54.680 you know, we got granite rock walls and it's like 0:52:54.840 --> 0:52:57.160 we don't have a blasting budget. You know, they were 0:52:57.160 --> 0:52:59.799 not going to spend millions of dollars like creating holes 0:52:59.800 --> 0:53:03.640 out nothing. So you know those are sort of hard 0:53:03.719 --> 0:53:06.160 edges or restrictions and things like that. Just like at 0:53:06.200 --> 0:53:09.480 Diamond Springs, even though the ground is relatively flat and subtle, 0:53:09.880 --> 0:53:12.839 you know, there's the big gorge where the creek's going 0:53:13.080 --> 0:53:19.799 and the old mill pond area, that ravine. You know, 0:53:19.880 --> 0:53:23.319 that's a hard edge. Can't do anything in there, you know, 0:53:23.360 --> 0:53:25.320 we we can't get down. 0:53:25.200 --> 0:53:26.600 There and adjust it or do anything. 0:53:26.600 --> 0:53:28.239 So how do you work over how do you take 0:53:28.719 --> 0:53:31.839 that and make that an advantage something that you can 0:53:32.320 --> 0:53:36.400 utilize and make interesting and provide impact. 0:53:37.040 --> 0:53:37.600 And it does. 0:53:37.680 --> 0:53:40.640 It provides a lot of you know, at the end 0:53:40.640 --> 0:53:43.879 of the round, you're like, wow, saw that at night, 0:53:43.960 --> 0:53:46.200 and then like you go away from it again. Then 0:53:46.239 --> 0:53:48.840 you come back fourteen through eighteen and it's like, wow, 0:53:49.000 --> 0:53:51.960 you know, pretty cool for thirty dollars off course, right yea, 0:53:53.719 --> 0:53:57.799 So at Gray Walls and you've got, yeah, you've got 0:53:57.840 --> 0:54:00.960 a lot of elevation change two hundred feet elevation change 0:54:01.360 --> 0:54:05.640 on the property, and you've got these super hard ridges, 0:54:06.280 --> 0:54:08.759 vertical type stuff that you have to deal with. So 0:54:09.560 --> 0:54:13.279 that's something that you have to factor in and say, okay, 0:54:13.360 --> 0:54:16.640 here's a hard edge, how does something fit into that? 0:54:16.800 --> 0:54:18.319 And then you have to figure out kind of how 0:54:18.360 --> 0:54:21.480 to how to make that work. And I'd been working 0:54:21.560 --> 0:54:23.440 on the routing and trying to figure things out, and 0:54:23.440 --> 0:54:26.600 there were certain holes that I saw and stuff like that, 0:54:26.719 --> 0:54:33.960 and it kind of it basically kind of clicked. Fred Muller, 0:54:34.040 --> 0:54:36.880 who was the old pro at Crystal Downs and stuff, 0:54:37.320 --> 0:54:39.960 and we were up there and we were going we 0:54:39.960 --> 0:54:42.040 were driving back. We'd been up there for a few 0:54:42.120 --> 0:54:45.520 days and we were driving back. Fred was driving and 0:54:45.560 --> 0:54:47.040 I was in the car and I was like doodling 0:54:47.080 --> 0:54:50.160 trying to figure out this section of the property, and 0:54:50.200 --> 0:54:52.800 it kind of clicked. And that was like the majority 0:54:52.840 --> 0:54:55.640 of the routing. It's like made it work. It made 0:54:55.640 --> 0:55:01.080 it fit together. So sometimes, you know, it takes something 0:55:01.120 --> 0:55:03.040 like that where you know, one little piece of the 0:55:03.080 --> 0:55:05.120 puzzle makes the thing work, or you know, if we 0:55:05.200 --> 0:55:09.120 do this, if we impact that, you know, that makes 0:55:09.120 --> 0:55:11.840 the other stuff and trying to figure out those you know, 0:55:11.880 --> 0:55:15.120 sometimes it's one little piece. You know, where's that piece 0:55:15.760 --> 0:55:19.000 the thousand thousand thousand piece puzzle and like, you know, 0:55:19.400 --> 0:55:20.480 where's that one piece? 0:55:20.920 --> 0:55:21.920 What piece was that? 0:55:23.760 --> 0:55:27.560 I can't remember right now, I know exactly, I don't know. 0:55:27.680 --> 0:55:29.920 I mean it's probably I'm not saying that it was 0:55:29.960 --> 0:55:32.840 one piece there, but trying to get everything to jive, 0:55:32.960 --> 0:55:35.680 you know, where you're trying to make this corner work. 0:55:35.840 --> 0:55:39.080 So in some like one of the. 0:55:39.000 --> 0:55:41.919 Hard things there is that we're on this big high 0:55:41.960 --> 0:55:44.480 piece and we go down and then we play you know, 0:55:44.560 --> 0:55:47.759 basically one, two, three, four kind of on a level. 0:55:47.760 --> 0:55:49.359 We got to get back to that middle ridge when 0:55:49.360 --> 0:55:50.480 we got to get out, and we got to figure 0:55:50.520 --> 0:55:50.879 out how. 0:55:50.760 --> 0:55:51.120 To do that. 0:55:51.680 --> 0:55:54.600 And we got a property boundary edge over where number 0:55:54.600 --> 0:55:57.560 four whole number five is, and there was no property 0:55:58.360 --> 0:56:01.240 boundary line stake in the field or. 0:56:03.280 --> 0:56:03.920 On the map. 0:56:04.880 --> 0:56:06.959 And I was told, oh, no, you got like another 0:56:07.080 --> 0:56:08.960 hundred hundred and fifty feet over there. I'm like, I 0:56:08.960 --> 0:56:11.960 don't think so, because I was thinking. I was looking 0:56:12.000 --> 0:56:14.920 at the map and and thinking that, you know, I'm 0:56:14.920 --> 0:56:18.279 pretty close to the edge here. And we were trying 0:56:18.280 --> 0:56:20.239 to figure out how to get to that corner, and 0:56:20.560 --> 0:56:23.480 four could have been a five, or it could have 0:56:23.680 --> 0:56:25.320 it could have been the four that it is now, 0:56:27.000 --> 0:56:31.400 and so it ended up being a four and having 0:56:31.440 --> 0:56:33.359 sort of this jog back to the tee and then 0:56:33.440 --> 0:56:37.360 this you know, short part four that went up to 0:56:37.400 --> 0:56:39.239 the green with a big rock wall and all that. 0:56:41.080 --> 0:56:43.400 I would have preferred that that tea was over another 0:56:43.640 --> 0:56:46.000 one hundred hundred and fifty feet, but that's not our 0:56:46.000 --> 0:56:49.319 proper property lines pretty much right there. So but we 0:56:49.360 --> 0:56:53.279 still had to figure out how to do that and 0:56:53.280 --> 0:56:55.120 and that kind of you know, it sort of worked. 0:56:55.560 --> 0:56:57.799 It figured out a way for it to work. But 0:56:57.960 --> 0:57:01.120 it's to me, it's it's the most awkward drive there 0:57:01.200 --> 0:57:02.520 because you know, you got to hit it up so 0:57:03.640 --> 0:57:06.200 you know, so high. That's difficult for a lot of golfers. 0:57:07.480 --> 0:57:09.319 But it's still like super exciting and fun and some 0:57:09.360 --> 0:57:10.920 people are like, that's my favorite hole, you know, and 0:57:10.960 --> 0:57:13.920 it's pretty iconic when you got this sixty foot granite 0:57:13.920 --> 0:57:17.040 wall right next to the green and you know there's 0:57:17.880 --> 0:57:20.960 full white pine trees growing on top of that, and 0:57:21.000 --> 0:57:26.040 you know, agonomically figuring out we could actually grow grass 0:57:26.040 --> 0:57:30.320 there was important because there's a lot of airflow and 0:57:30.400 --> 0:57:34.840 it gets morning sun and late sun and the gap 0:57:34.920 --> 0:57:37.919 works to where it you know, functions because you'd think 0:57:39.120 --> 0:57:44.000 this that granite cliff is wall is on the southwest side, 0:57:44.040 --> 0:57:45.920 and you're thinking, how are you going to grow grass 0:57:46.480 --> 0:57:47.640 because it's going to be in shadow. 0:57:50.280 --> 0:57:51.000 But it does work. 0:57:51.400 --> 0:57:56.080 So it's, uh, yeah, that that is a thrilling stretch. 0:57:56.160 --> 0:58:00.520 It's well the uh that place everybody should go see. 0:58:00.680 --> 0:58:05.280 But we uh, we kind of wrap this here and 0:58:05.600 --> 0:58:10.240 we appreciate the time and we'll look forward to seeing 0:58:10.240 --> 0:58:12.240 more of your work here. I gotta get down to 0:58:12.280 --> 0:58:15.520 Australia and then i'll have I'll see all the original stuff. 0:58:16.080 --> 0:58:19.360 And uh gotta get there. I get there. Maybe maybe 0:58:19.400 --> 0:58:22.520 that's a trick, ye maybe from America. But it's worth it. 0:58:22.680 --> 0:58:24.760 I know. I just got to get on a plane. 0:58:25.840 --> 0:58:28.760 It's a month long journey, you know. Do it hit Australia, 0:58:28.920 --> 0:58:32.439 hit you know, hit New Zealand. Just think of all 0:58:32.640 --> 0:58:34.280 the podcasts you can do from down there. 0:58:34.520 --> 0:58:35.080 I know that. 0:58:37.320 --> 0:58:38.160 It was in the cards. 0:58:38.200 --> 0:58:41.680 We'll see if I get down there, all right, Thanks Mike. 0:58:41.840 --> 0:58:43.720 Thank you, thanks for having me. Appreciate it.