WEBVTT - #143 Jason Flom with Terrance Lewis 0:00:02.080 --> 0:00:04.400 In nineteen ninety six, a man by the name of 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.960 Hulan Bernard Howard allowed separate dealers to sell crack from 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:10.080 the front porch and basement of his home in the 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:14.040 crime ridden neighborhood of West Philadelphia, while his girlfriend Lena 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:17.479 Laws would buy crack from anyone she could. At around 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.800 ten thirty pm on August sixth, Miss Laws invited small 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:24.680 time dealer Jamar Gladden over to buy some crack. Just then, 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:28.280 another of mister Howard's dealers, Jamel Lawson, along with a 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:31.760 man known as Stink, entered the home, both armed to 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:34.960 settle a drug dead. They shot and killed mister Howard 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:38.559 and robbed their small time rival Jamar Gladden in the process. 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:41.519 With the eyewitness testimony of his Laws, who had just 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:45.240 smoked crack, investigators would manufacture a theory of events that 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:48.760 would place Jamar Gladden as acting along with the two 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:54.520 armed robbers Jamel Lawson and Stink. But who was Stink Well, 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:58.880 Jamar's childhood friend, Terence Lewis was known as Stink, and 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:03.200 an anonymous tip would name Terrence as the other arm robber. Surprise, 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:06.080 it didn't quite matter to the Philadelphia police that he 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:09.679 wasn't the right one. All three men were sent to 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:13.360 life without parole on the word of miss Laws. Eventually, 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:16.679 those several eyewitnesses, including both of his co defendants, would 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:20.800 come forward to deny Terrence's involvement. Two Supreme Court rulings 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:25.240 would also aid his cause, and then, working together, Terrence's 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.560 lawyers along with the Philadelphia Conviction Integrity Unit led by 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:32.560 Patricia Cummings, would uncover a serious Brady violation, revealing that 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:35.560 the police knew the real identity of Stink all the 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:40.160 way back in nineteen ninety six. This is Wrongful Conviction 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:54.559 with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:58.360 Today you're going to hear the story of Terence Lewis Terrence. 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.680 First of all, welcome to the show. I always say 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:02.840 I'm happier here, but I'm sorry you had to be 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:03.880 here in the first place. 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:06.280 Yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you, Jason. 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:08.960 Yeah. Man, I'm really excited to be able to share 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:12.600 your remarkable story and your humanity and your spirit with 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:16.360 our audience. So let's get right into it. So, first 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:17.400 of all, you grew up in. 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:20.320 Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PI. 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:23.240 Yes, I mean I know, having spoken with Meek Mill 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:26.079 on another episode of the show. Of course he's younger 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:28.360 than you are, but he talks about growing up in 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:31.160 the streets of Philadelphia and how trying to stay alive 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:33.600 was a challenge in and of itself. 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:36.799 You know, being exposed at a young age to murder, 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:41.480 the current police brutality that was norm you know for 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:45.040 those who are under privileged or come from you know, 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:46.560 all our poor neighborhoods. 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:50.080 You were as a young man subject to dodging not 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:55.359 only bullets from gangs, but also trying to avoid the 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:58.520 confrontations that have now become so much a part of 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:01.520 the public consciousness as we see in the era and 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:03.720 now where everyone has a video camera in their pocket. 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.200 But back then it was in the shadows. True, And 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:11.000 we're talking about the nineties when things were pretty crazy, 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:15.040 well everywhere, but in Philadelphia, especially especially as a young 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:16.960 black man growing up there. What was that like? 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:20.360 You know, in West Philadelphia where I grew up, it 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:23.840 was crime infested, you know, the war on drugs, and 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:28.200 the streets was in dis array. Me growing up in 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:34.120 a single parent household. My father was you know, overseas 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:37.520 and the military dedicated his life so I grew up 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:40.880 with me and my siblings underneath the care of my mother, 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.720 who was no other than a high school the Phona, 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:48.400 you know, tried to struggle and you know, and keep 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:50.960 a roof over our head. You know, I've been working 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:54.720 since nineteen ninety four, the legal age, with the consent 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:56.720 of my mother to be able to work as a 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:59.880 youth counselor so from ninety four all the way up 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.320 to my abduction, you know, I always work. 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:07.160 Let's fast forward to ten thirty pm, around ten thirty 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.320 pm on August sixth of nineteen ninety six. Is that 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:14.280 on that night, three young men entered the home of 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:19.120 a guy named Hulan Howard, and according to Howard's girlfriend, 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:21.800 Lena Laws, they were there to settle a drug debt. 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:24.760 One of the men fired a shotgun into the ceiling. 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:28.440 Again this is her version of events, before shooting and 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:31.359 killing mister Howard when he couldn't pay what he owed. 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:36.320 So she later changed that story because there were no 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.599 holes found in the ceiling and she changed the story 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:42.360 to that the man had loaded a shotgun shell. Then 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:44.440 another one of the men shot mister Howard with a 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:48.080 handgun and they stole twenty dollars from his Laws and 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:49.120 fled the scene. 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:53.480 You're right in regards to you know, her version of events, 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:57.360 whichever one, because there were many. One of her narratives 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:02.120 is that three guys arrived together. That's not true. One 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:06.279 of the three men, Jamar Gladden, is a victim himself, 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:09.400 and the record reflects this that when Jamar Gladden was 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:14.440 summoned by Lena Laws to come near, unfortunately Jamel Laws 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:18.440 and his cohort also arrived there. Freak chance, right, but 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:23.200 nonetheless true story, and the Philadelphia Police Department intertwined and 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:26.760 weave a whole case together and killed three birds with 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:27.800 one stone. 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:30.479 Although you know you were the bird that wasn't even 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:35.000 in the nest. Exactly so, Miss Laws. According to her, 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:38.120 she knew one of the men, a guy named Jamel 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:41.120 Lawson you mentioned as Mellow. His nickname was Melo, and 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:43.320 he had dell drugs out of the basement of the 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:46.760 guy who was murdered, mister Howard. She also knew the 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:49.920 guy with the shotgun by his nickname, which was Stink. 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:55.520 Exactly when Lena Laws was telling the police what happened 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:57.960 at night, what transpired, she didn't want to tell the 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.719 narrative that I called Jamar Gladden and it come. She 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:03.640 just said, hey, look, three guys came and she said 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.720 who was Jamar Gladden? Jamel Lawson? And then they say 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:10.960 who is this third other individual? They said goes by 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:13.360 the name of State, who we come to find and 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:15.680 know was a day Muhammad and the cops knew this 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:18.080 the second day after the interviewing. 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:20.120 Lena last, did you know any of these people? 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:24.960 Jamar Gladden is a childhood friend of mine who, sad 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:28.800 to say, but true, was a petty drug dealer back then. 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:33.320 Him and Lena Laws had a personal drug relation, and 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:37.839 unfortunately for him, he so happened to get involved with 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:41.359 that crack house mister Howard home. He was running like 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.960 a crack enterprise and he had some individual sell from 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:48.160 the porch and he had Jamel Laws and sell from 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:53.359 the basement, and that created a rivalry. So when Jamel 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:59.640 Lawson heard that Jamar was also peddling drugs out of 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:02.800 what he deemed to be his enterprise because he had 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:06.400 more drugs and he was the neighborhood drug dealer, an aggressor, 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:11.120 he came there with another armed individual to confront mister 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:15.120 Howard and Jamel lost and then his coht you know, 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:17.240 robbed everybody. 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:21.120 This scenario that you just painted is given me like 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:24.560 anxiety just thinking about it. You have the two different 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:26.960 guys showing up at the same time, one of them 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:30.280 brings another guy with him in this drug den, there's 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.880 all sorts of different tensions. There's a competition for the 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:38.400 drug trade at the time. There's money that's owed, there's guns. 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:43.160 There's the woman who's almost certainly high at the time. 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:46.960 And the record reflects that she smoked crack cocaine fifteen 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:51.000 minutes prior to the actual murderers up. 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.520 You know, I can remember being drunk or high at 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:55.720 different times, but how high do you have to be 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:59.240 to mix up whether or not somebody shot a shotgun 0:07:59.240 --> 0:07:59.960 into the ceiling. 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.920 That was one of the statements that was made. Remember 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:06.800 I was the guy allegedly with the shotgun, But she 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:10.640 had told a different officer at the time, Sergeant Mandela, 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:14.520 that the guy who fired the shotgun in the air, 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:18.840 he turned and he shot mister Howard and the guy. 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:19.920 Was named Mellow. 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:22.800 This is a whole other different version of events in 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:25.040 regards to what happened in one. Like you said, never 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:28.280 was no shotgun fired in the ceiling, nor was mister 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:32.120 Howard killed from a shotgun from his back. Now, mind you. 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:36.240 Lena Laws also said that she don't know one gun 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:38.640 from another. However, when it come to find out it's 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:40.600 no shotgun in the ceiling, she said, oh no, he 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:44.160 didn't fire it. Stinkthdened fire. Terrence didn't fire it. He 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:47.280 racked it. So my lawyer was smart enough and wise 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:49.840 enough to say, well, where did you learn the term rat, 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:52.319 because prior to that you believe he fired it, right, 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:55.719 She said, yeah, yeah, I learned the term rat from 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:58.199 the detectives. This is all in the record. This is 0:08:58.720 --> 0:08:59.800 in the trial transcripts. 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:02.920 Yeah. So they just scripted it like a play. They 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:06.360 gave her the lines to say, and she said them exactly. 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.200 So it's obvious that she lied. But we don't know 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:13.120 the details in regards to why or to what extent 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:15.960 the Philadelphia Police Department to hersty but we do know 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:19.600 for effect they help her piece together a story. Why, 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:21.880 we don't know, I mean, other than to close the case. 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:25.320 Over the summer of nineteen ninety seven, so this is 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:29.280 sometime after the crime police arrested Jamar Gladden, who was 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:33.240 nineteen and Jamel Lawson, who was twenty two, And the 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:38.120 investigation grew cold after that until an anonymous tip came 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:41.240 into the Pennsylvania Crime Commission and that's where you got 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:45.040 wrapped up in at seventeen years old. Somebody called in 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:48.360 and said that you were sometimes known by the nickname 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:52.280 of Stink, and you were arrested. Now this is almost 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:54.320 a year and a half after the crime on December 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:57.880 twentieth of nineteen ninety seven. Had you ever been known 0:09:57.920 --> 0:09:58.640 as Stink? 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:02.679 My grandma there said as a child, I used to 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:06.400 stink my diaper. So this those thinks think, but yeah, 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.040 I was. That was my name. So the police say, 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:13.280 you know what, Jamar knows a guy named Stink as well. 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:18.400 And that's how I was involved because they said, well, hey, Terrence, 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:23.559 he knows Jamar Gladden. So if he's from amongst that neighborhood, 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:28.520 and if he knows of individuals that do wrong, then 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:30.880 he is an evil seed himself. And it was an 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:33.320 open shed case for the Philadelphia Police Department. 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:36.120 It took a lot of people to sort of go 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:38.720 along with this, and any one of them could have 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.560 stood up and said, wait a minute, this doesn't make 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:44.199 any damn sense. Why are we listening to this woman? 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:46.400 And do you have an anonymous tip that maybe or 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:49.240 maybe not you were called stink? But was there any 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:51.840 other evidence connecting you to this crime? 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:59.160 No other evidence whatsoever. My life hinged on testimony of 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:03.480 admitted crack user who was high literally fifteen moments before 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:05.720 it happened. But in addition to that, like you know, 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:08.200 we can't forget, what added to, you know, my wrong 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:12.240 incarceration The fact that at that time, Jason, the culture 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:16.840 of Philadelphia DA Office as well as police department, it 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:18.800 was the war on drugs. They was at war. They 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:22.000 was at war, so I became a casualty of war. 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:26.120 The evidence pointed to something other, but generally speaking, the 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:30.120 Philadelphia Police department it was getting over time to solve cases. 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:33.160 And the more cases they saw, the more overtime they get, 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:36.280 so it made sense to flip cases quicker. And this 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:39.120 was what they did up until this day, what we 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.920 witnessing now. I was poor, I was it was nothing. 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.920 I was a peon, I was black. I can be discarded, 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:51.439 But forgive me for dropping off. Like I said, I 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:56.720 getting emotional when I think of how they just destroyed 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:08.760 my life you know, growing up in the projects. I 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:12.200 remember how the police used to swarm the neighborhood drug 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:17.319 dealers and beat them senseless. There was no cameras at 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:19.720 that time. When they left after they got finished kicking 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:21.480 a hole and they were trying to kick a hole 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:23.600 in the head, they just sometimes they wrest them and 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:25.680 sometimes they used to just leave him here. And I 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:27.760 said that to say, because I used to witness this, 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:30.240 you know, a couple of times a week. And you know, Jason, 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:33.880 this was the way and culture at that time of 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:37.720 the Philadelphia Police Department. If they wasn't bashing the guys 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:41.120 heads in, then they was definitely penny cases on them 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:44.599 and locking them up. So when I look back in retrospect, 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.079 all I can do now still is to shake my head. 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:50.240 And when I look, you know, at what's going on 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:54.439 around us with George Floyd. This has it's been going 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:57.000 on forever, you know. Mind you A whole case was 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.480 manufactured against me at the age of seventeen and spent 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.199 twenty one years of my life. So this is why 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:05.200 I want to tell my story now. 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:10.079 The arrests happened, and the charges are extremely serious. Lawson 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:13.960 and Gladden were both charged with first degree murder, armed robbery, 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:18.120 and criminal conspiracy, and you were charged with second degree murder, 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:20.120 arm robbery, and criminal conspiracy. 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:22.800 When my attorney came to visit me, he only visited 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:26.040 me twice doing this, and again I was facing second 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:28.960 degree murder and I already been sitting, I believe for 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:33.840 seventeen maybe nineteen months at the county jail, and I 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:35.840 got a whole case. They said that I was there 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:37.880 and I racked the shot and said when myway finally 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:40.160 came to see me one of the two times, he said, hey, 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.800 look they got nothing on you. And I'm letting them know, 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.480 like yet this is made up. This lady is lying, 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:48.000 He says. The defense were going to show that, with 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:51.960 all her numerous inconsistencies, that this is impossible. Whichever version 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:55.680 of jury so choose to believe. So okay, fine, and. 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:58.439 They put you all on trial together in May of 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.959 nineteen ninety nine. Basically you had a snowballs chance in 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:04.040 hell of proving your innocence. 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:06.760 That's where the monkey wrench came in, I believe, is 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:08.920 that they tried me, you know, I mean with Jamal Lawson. 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:11.040 They had it right with one of the guys. You 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:12.679 know what I mean that he was actually there. He 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:14.160 was a drug dealer. You know what I mean, he 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:14.959 was the trigger man. 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:19.120 The state's case, and this is important, rested entirely on 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:23.920 the testimony of his laws at trials. She identified you, 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:26.680 Glad and Lawson as the three arm and that entered 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:30.280 the home to settle the drug debt with Hulan Howard. Initially, 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:34.360 again she had said that the shotgun was carried by Stink, 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:37.560 was fired into the ceiling and then used to kill Howard. 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:40.120 Then at this point she changed her account of events, 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:44.080 You holding the shotgun, loading the shotgun shell but not firing, 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:46.440 and then she fingered lost and with a handgun as 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:50.160 to shoot her. I mean, she couldn't keep her gun straight, 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:54.200 her story straight, her people straight. And she also testified 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:56.920 that the three of you had sold cocaine from the 0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:59.640 home for the fifty days leading up to the shooting. 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:04.000 Now again this is important, right, no weapons were ever 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:09.000 recovered and no forensic evidence linked you to this scene. 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.320 But nonetheless, on May twenty fourth and nineteen ninety nine, 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:15.880 all of you were saying to life in prison without parole, 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:19.080 what the hell was that? Like? I mean, here you 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:20.120 are You're still a kid? 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:24.920 Right, Yeah, I'm still a kid. I'm still a kid reliving. 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:33.160 That is definitely troublesome, to say the least. I'm sitting there. 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:39.040 The verdict came down guilty, guilty of all charges, second 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:45.080 degree murder, and it's like like my soul, my soul 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:47.680 had lifted out of my body, like my soul had 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.720 hovered because I knew for being in the county for 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:53.320 seventeen months or I think it was nineteen excuse me. 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:55.880 One of the two that I seen guys, they was 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:59.560 just sending them away. This is why now due to 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:02.640 the rushing of the DA office with the Conviction Integrity Unit, 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:05.360 Miss Patricia Cummins, you know, she's right in a lot 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:09.600 of wrongs, I seen a lot of individuals go to 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:13.920 jail for life, literally for crimes that they didn't commit. 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:18.360 Right once they said guilty, I knew that I had 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:21.160 an uphill battle. I knew I had an uphill battle. 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:27.640 So nineteen months in jail and that's just jail before 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.800 the trial, and then of course twenty one and a 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:35.000 half years in prison. Can you explain to us, though 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:40.160 Terrence jail in prison, what was life like in the jail, 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:44.000 first of all as a teenager and then spending you know, 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:46.160 really half your life in prison. 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:49.680 Yeah, and thank you too for that, Jason, because it's 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:52.360 definitely a difference. When I was in jail during the 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:58.600 nineteen months, it was the most miserable time of my life. 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:03.840 My son was my son was just born. I had 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:07.399 to watch, you know, all them sunny days, true sunny days. 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:12.120 They would gloomy for me, especially after, like I said, 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.840 witness and everybody else be railroaded, anticipating like then, what 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:18.719 is my fate as a child like you said I was, 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:20.520 You know, I was a kid by then. I was 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:23.199 nineteen years old, you know, never had a brush in 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:25.760 with the law. I ain't. No, I ain't know nothing 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.280 from nothing. I ain't and I didn't. I ain't know 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.600 who to trust in there, you know. And I was 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.040 facing a life sentence, and I was taken away from 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:35.119 you know, my son, I was taking away from my family, 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.840 taking away from my mother. I was just empty. That 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:41.960 was jail. That's the best way I can describe jail. 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:45.399 When I went to prison. After I went in prison, 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:48.000 they already put a hole in my heart, taking me 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:50.160 away from my baby boy, you know, when I went 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:57.240 to prison. Yeah, it was jail put a hole in 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:04.200 my heart. Prison took it, took it. Prison took it, 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:07.480 and it could have destroyed me, but it didn't. You know, 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:11.119 I still have a level of grease with me. But 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:17.400 the trauma and the experience of prison, you can't google 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:20.240 that for me to be able to tell it to 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:22.639 where you can actually fill me and relate. It was 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:26.600 every negative emotion that you can possibly think of. I 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:31.400 experienced it in prison, you know, true, true resentment, true anger. 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:35.880 They were real emotions that I was introduced to in prison, 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:39.680 you know, because of the people, you know, staff of 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:43.560 you know, see out here, we have police in prison, 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:48.240 they called CEOs, but they are police. Same thing goes 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:50.639 on what goes on out here, and I had to 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:56.439 navigate through that at a young age. So yeah, I 0:18:56.480 --> 0:19:01.320 guess I'm not an average Joe because there isn't like 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:05.720 a layer of my soul. It desensitized me to a lot. 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:09.640 But due to my natural disposition, I am who I am, 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:12.760 you know before I got here and before I went 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:17.040 in there, you know. So that's what prison was. It 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:20.439 was a horrible experience. Damn prison. 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:27.480 I'm glad you brought that up because I've been saying 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:32.000 anybody that will listen that while we are all experiencing 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:38.080 the same anger and grief and outrage at these killings 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:43.920 that we see on video, the George Floyd's and all 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:48.200 the others, we can't forget that there's all the other 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.160 ones that are taking place behind the walls, and that 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:55.720 we can't see those they're not on video. But we 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:59.480 know that approximately five thousand people die in our jails 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:03.120 in prisons in America every year, and not a lot 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:04.440 of those are from old age. 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:09.200 I remember working the Mr Shop maintenance repair shot. This 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:13.240 is when I was at sci Pittsburgh and the jail 0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:20.199 was closing down two thousand and four, and it was 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.960 a box of photos. It's a box of photos and 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:26.160 I'm cleaning this out, so I'm looking at I'm looking 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:28.119 at a box to see what it is. It could be anything, 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:29.439 you know. I want to see how heavy it is. 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:33.040 And it was a bunch of pictures. It was Polaroid pictures, 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:36.840 pictures from back in the day, the eighties, pictures from 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:42.120 the seventies. Was a box and all these photos were 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:46.600 pictures of dead bodies. I can't make this ship up. Well, 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:52.240 it was pictures of dead bodies either with some sheets 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:55.560 wrapped around their net as if they hung themselves. I 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:58.199 don't know. I wasn't there, right, so maybe they did, 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.520 maybe they didn't. I don't know, although I'm just telling 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:05.280 you what I've seen. I seen the sheets wrapped around 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:07.920 these guys. Next, of course, you know there were pictures, 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:10.600 you know. I mean, we're all types of wounds, you know, 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:14.320 some stab wombs and stuff like that. But a lot 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:18.400 of that from the history with the institutions, the penitentiaries, 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:20.800 you know, which some of the guys in there called 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:24.360 the modern day plantations, right, and they got an argument 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:28.679 to stand on with calling it that that there. Jason 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:32.000 just reminded me of it. Yeah, them holes in them 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:36.440 individuals wasn't due to old age. And the sheets wrapped 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:40.399 around their neck wasn't due to old age, you know. 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:43.680 And I remember when I was there, the guards, it 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:47.159 was like some back in the day Colosmo type stuff. 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:50.960 The guards, if they didn't like you, they ain't like 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:56.800 I'm glad I navigated successfully through that experience that I 0:21:56.840 --> 0:21:58.920 went through. If the guards ain't like you, and you 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:01.680 was a smart ass, he was hard up. They pay 0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:07.240 someone give them extra whatever, extra pisa to do what 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:09.639 I've seen on those pictures. I know for a fact 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:12.520 because when I was there, the guards were still you know, 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:15.520 from amongst their culture, their tradition, that they wanted some 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:18.160 entertainment and they ain't like a guy or they'd put 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:20.600 his case out there. This guy raped such and such, 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:23.640 this guy did this, and they're turn a blind eye 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:27.120 and the guys that get I'm talking about the work 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:29.639 that was. I seen a guy get his head split 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:32.480 wide open with a lock and sock. You'd be amazed 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:36.760 at what a lock and sock can do. So, yeah, Jason, 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:39.000 you're right. This is the stuff that goes on behind 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:42.760 them walls that falls on the deaf ears out here. 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:48.240 Up until now with the recent injustice that's being exposed. 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:54.920 It's a slow moving tragedy, disaster, human rights catastrophe that 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:58.320 you know, we treat people behind bars as if they're 0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:01.000 not human. In fact that as soon as they get arrested, 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:04.920 you become something else other than just a regular person. 0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:08.600 And mind you, this is nothing new. You know, if 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:13.200 you trace it back the origin of what's now mass incarceration, 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:15.439 it go all the way back to you know, the 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:20.120 Black Colds, and convict lease. And you know, slavery then 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:24.080 literally it morphed, you know it morphed or it was 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:28.680 given a different name, but arose by any other name 0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:33.320