1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: Why are brains superstitious? Would you wear a nice sweater 2 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: that belonged to a murderer? What does this have to 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: do with mind reading or our interpretation of coincidences, or 4 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: why kids often need their special blanket, and what any 5 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 1: of this has to do with the brain. Welcome to 6 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: Intercosmos with me David Eagelman. I'm a neuroscientist and author 7 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: at Stanford and in these episodes we dive deeply into 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: our three pound universe to understand some of the most 9 00:00:40,320 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: surprising aspects of our lives. So here's today's question. Why 10 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: do so many humans across time, across geography, even across 11 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: the levels of education. Why do they believe in things 12 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: they can't see and that presumably are not true, like 13 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: ghosts or guardian angels, or curses or telepathy, or sacred 14 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:26,119 Speaker 1: relics or vengeful gods or karma or lucky socks. Even 15 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: if you consider yourself totally unsuperstitious, you might still find 16 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: that you say something and then you knock on wood, 17 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: or maybe you dribble the ball three times before you 18 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: take a basketball free throw, or maybe you would hesitate 19 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: at the idea of moving into a house where a 20 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: murderer lived. Now this is all strange behavior, right, because 21 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: if you're a total rationalist, you'd say, look, no problem 22 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: moving into that house. Criminality doesn't rub off on the walls. 23 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: Those are totally separate issues. But somehow it's hard to 24 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: move into that house. We see examples of superstitious behavior 25 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: around us all the time. The tennis player John McEnroe, 26 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: he would always refuse to step on the white lines 27 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: of a tennis court between points. People cross their fingers, 28 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: They avoid walking under ladders, they avoid black cats. So 29 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: it probably won't surprise you that surveys consistently show that 30 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: belief in the supernatural is alive and well even in 31 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: highly secular, scientifically advanced societies. In the United States, a 32 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: majority of people believe in angels sixty nine percent according 33 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: to Gallup polls, And by the way, that's way more 34 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: than believe in the Big Bang theory forty nine percent, 35 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: and over twice as much as evolution by natural selections, 36 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: which is thirty two percent. And this is broader than 37 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 1: just the influence of religion. More generally, people believe in fate, 38 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: in manifesting energy, in spiritual healing, in meaningful coincidences, and 39 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: This all forms part of a rich, persistent global pattern 40 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: of supernatural thought. So where does this all come from? 41 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: This question about supernatural thinking has long fascinated scientists and philosophers. 42 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: Some people answer this in a social lens, for example, 43 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: that beliefs bind groups, and some researchers point to the 44 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: psychological benefits, like belief gives us a sense of control 45 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: in an unpredictable world. But there's also a deeper clue, 46 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: and it has to do with the fact that the 47 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: foundation of our supernatural beliefs is not taught to us. 48 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: It arises spontaneously. Our brains generate them over and over 49 00:03:54,960 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: from early childhood without instruction. Across cultures. The details change, 50 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: but the need to reach for invisible explanations is a constant. Why. Well, 51 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: it's because we don't see the world like we're passive 52 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: recorders of reality. Instead, we are pattern makers. We fill 53 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: the world with meaning. Our brains take incomplete data and 54 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 1: they infer causes. We hear rustling leaves in the forest 55 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: and we attribute agency. We hear a story about a 56 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: murderer's house and we attribute some essence to it. We 57 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 1: see a coincidence and we mark it up to destiny. 58 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: As we're going to see today, this sort of superstitious 59 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: thinking is actually a useful feature of the brain. All 60 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: this starts to make a lot more sense from the 61 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: neuroscience point of view, because these beliefs are natural outcomes 62 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 1: of how human minds work. So today's episode is about this, 63 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:06,119 Speaker 1: this strange and fascinating corner of our cognition, the super sense. 64 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: Super sense is a term coined by the developmental psychologist 65 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: Bruce Hood, who noticed something curious in his research with children, 66 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: even very young kids, before they're deeply exposed to cultural teachings, 67 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: they show supernatural thinking. They believe that people have invisible essences, 68 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: they recoil from bad objects, They believe in mind over matter, 69 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: or that thoughts can influence events. These behaviors emerge early 70 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: and automatically, so Bruce wrote a book called Supersense, Why 71 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 1: We Believe in the Unbelievable, in which he explores why 72 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: our brains are so naturally inclined toward the mystical, the magical, 73 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: the metaphysical. In the book, he digs into the biology 74 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: of belief, the brain mechanisms that underlie superstition and magical thinking, 75 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 1: and spiritual conviction. Why world class athletes have their rituals. 76 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: Why the belief that everything happens for a reason is 77 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: so hard to shake. Why you wouldn't accept a heart 78 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: transplant from a death row inmate. So the question is 79 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 1: why are these patterns so persistent and what do they 80 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: reveal about the human brain. So today we're going to 81 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: examine what happens when our ancient circuitry collides with the 82 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: modern world and why, even in an age of satellites 83 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: and particle accelerators, the supernatural never really goes away. So 84 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: here's my conversation with Bruce Hood. Okay, so, Bruce, you've 85 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: been intrigued by supernatural thinking. People often believe things that 86 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: defy rationality. So let's start with some examples of. 87 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 2: That, so familiar ones of ghosts and spirits, which form 88 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 2: the basis of a lot of storytelling in our culture. 89 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 2: But I'm also interested in the more obscure things, like 90 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 2: the rituals that people often engage in. That they might 91 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: have special things that they do sports rituals I think 92 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 2: are fascinating, that people have to touch certain things or 93 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 2: wear certain clothes. And then there are more obscure things 94 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 2: like this sense of being stared at most people think 95 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 2: they can tell where they're being watched, and that's an 96 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: interesting one because that doesn't sound supernatural to a lot 97 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 2: of people. But when you consider it from a scientific perspective, 98 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 2: then it's not really easy to understand how that could 99 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 2: be done by any natural process. So really it's all 100 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 2: those sorts of things which, in the cold light a 101 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 2: day and you look at them through the scrutiny of 102 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 2: a scientific lens don't stand up. 103 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 3: So anything like that is in the category. 104 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: And when you look at things like that, you realize, wow, 105 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: this actually cuts across cultures and as far as we 106 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: can tell, across time as well. Right, everybody seems to 107 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: do this, Yes. 108 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 2: And that's exactly one of the interesting things which suggests 109 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: it might be universal. Whenever you find aspects of human 110 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: behavior in different cultures that strongly suggests that it might 111 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 2: be something to do with our biology, rather than being 112 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 2: entirely culturally specific. There are, of course very specific cultural 113 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 2: supernatural beliefs, but if you look at them more closely, 114 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 2: you can see that they're very often based on the 115 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: very same premise. So for example, life after death, souls 116 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 2: and spirits and ghosts, you'll find it just about every culture. 117 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: And so you categorize this under the umbrella term supersense. 118 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: So give us give us understanding of what this means. 119 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 2: Well, the super sense term, it was really the almost 120 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 2: appealing to the intuitive nature, that these things seem like 121 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: they're something you can detect, or that they feel real. 122 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 2: I mean, this is the important point for many people 123 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: when you ask them, why do you believe in these things? 124 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 2: They say, well, I've had experience of it, or I've 125 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 2: had that sense of being watched, or I've sensed the 126 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 2: presence of people in houses or ghosts or whatever, that 127 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 2: uncanny kind of sense of reality. And so I wanted 128 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 2: to capture the supernatural term, but also a sense in 129 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 2: which these things feel correct, because ultimately in the book, 130 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 2: I argue that they really all really come from an 131 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 2: intuitive way of thinking, as we have as children. 132 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: And so this supernatural thinking, you argue that this is 133 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: rooted in our deep mental architecture. 134 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 2: So for me, supernatural phenomenon include anything like energies, forces, causes, entities, 135 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 2: anything which people use to explain the experiences that they've had. 136 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 2: So that also includes all the religious ones, but I'm 137 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 2: also more interested in the ones which are not obviously 138 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 2: derived from pure religion, and that includes everything else I 139 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, like superstitious rituals and personal kind of you know, 140 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: our attachment to objects and sentiments, mentality. These are things 141 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: which I find fascinating because I think they evoke the 142 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 2: same sort of underlying mechanisms, and those mechanisms really come 143 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 2: from a brain which evolved to make sense of the world, 144 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: and you can see this operating in children. I began 145 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 2: as a developmental psychologists, and so I've always been fascinated 146 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 2: in the way that children makes sense of the world. 147 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 2: So we talk about them having intuitive theories, which are 148 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 2: ways of understanding the world evoking causal mechanisms that are 149 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 2: not taught formally, and that's the important point. These are 150 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 2: things that children spontaneously come up with as their own 151 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 2: explanations for why the world is the way they are. So, 152 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 2: for example, when it comes to making a distinction between 153 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 2: living and non living things, they spontaneously think there must 154 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: be some sort of energy or life force in a 155 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 2: living thing which gives it sort of autonomy and self 156 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 2: propelled motions, as opposed to more inert things like. 157 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 3: Objects and wooden blocks and stuff like that. 158 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 2: So Jiennal already starting to draw a distinction between the 159 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 2: biological and non biological in the way that they think 160 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 2: about that. And once they've made that distinction, they then 161 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 2: also start to evoke the notions of intentionality. They start 162 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 2: to infirm minds having causes for making things do the 163 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 2: things they do. And that's the beginnings of mind body dualism, 164 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 2: which is a philosophical position, and that I think is 165 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 2: also the basis for a lot of beliefs in. 166 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 3: The body and mind being separate. 167 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 2: And if that's the case, then well, once the body's gone, 168 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 2: maybe the mind continues to exists, and therefore you have 169 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 2: the basis of spirit, souls, and ghosts and the afterlife. 170 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 2: So in kind of understanding the world around them, children 171 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 2: are evoking the kind of causal mechanisms or intuitive theories 172 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 2: which lay the foundation for what can become adult supernatural beliefs. 173 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: And I think that's the way that religions actually are working, 174 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 2: is that they kind of operate or their successful because 175 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 2: they tap into what our inclinations about what could be possible, ghosts, 176 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 2: life after death, and so on. 177 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: So the idea is you think, look, here's a living object, 178 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: but there's a mental state that's different. And so when 179 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: Grandma passes away, she still exists even though her body 180 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: is buried. Right, this is what dualism means. We have 181 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: the mental and the physical being separate, whereas the view 182 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: of modern neuroscience is that these things are linked. The 183 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: reason that's the view of modern neuroscience is because anytime 184 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: a person gets damage to the brain let's say, stroke, 185 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: at tumor traumatic brain injury, things like that, we see 186 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: very specific changes in who they are based on what's 187 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 1: happened with the brain. 188 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 2: As Pinker put it very aptly, said, the mind is 189 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 2: what the brain does. So it's a sort of I 190 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 2: hate the analogies of software and hardware, but yeah, the 191 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 2: mind is the operating system in many ways. And your science, 192 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 2: as you say, tells us that if you damage or 193 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 2: disease the brain or drug it, I'll change the concepts 194 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,199 Speaker 2: of the content of the mind. But the general point 195 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 2: is that most people would assume that the mind is 196 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 2: separate to the body, but neuroscientists tend to sort of 197 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 2: be more materialistic about that process. But let's just assume 198 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: that you've gone for the mind being separate from the body. 199 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 2: Then once the body's gone, then if you don't see 200 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 2: it as being tethered to the body. Then that allows 201 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 2: for a whole lot of beliefs. So it could be 202 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 2: things like astral planing, you know, leaving your body and 203 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 2: traveling around the world, or projection, all the sorts of 204 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 2: things that people readily acknowledge or identify with as being 205 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 2: phenomena that they think they've experienced. So there's a whole 206 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 2: lot of you know, there are a lot of natural 207 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 2: phenomena that people reinterpret us supernatural. It's not to say 208 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 2: that these things couldn't possibly happen. I mean, for example, 209 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 2: take telepathy. Telepathy in its current state, we would argue, well, 210 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 2: being able to read someone's mind without technology would be 211 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 2: a supernatural ability. But you know, you've worked with human interfaces, 212 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 2: it won't be long before you can actually start to 213 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 2: read the output of the brain, and maybe that could 214 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 2: be transmitted to another person and effect you could read 215 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 2: minds at a distance. So it's not impossible, but at 216 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 2: the moment it's just not as improbable given our current 217 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 2: understanding of the technology and our scientific theories. 218 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: Okay, so we just cover an intuitive dualism, this idea 219 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: that mind and body are separate. What else is bearing 220 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: in our cognitive architecture such that that leads to supernatural beliefs. 221 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: Okay, so my favorite is essentialism. This is something that 222 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 2: I've I continue to think about. It's something that I've 223 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 2: done research upon. Essentialism is that once you form an 224 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 2: emotional attachment to an item, you essentialize it. And that 225 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 2: can be you know, it can be an object, it 226 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 2: can be a possession, that can be another person even 227 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 2: But the point is essentialism is evoking a core identity 228 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 2: sort of if you like, a metaphysical property to a 229 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 2: physical entity that gives it its unique identity. 230 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: So give us an example. Just everyone understands what centialism is. 231 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 3: Okay. 232 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 2: One of my daughters formed a very emotional attachment to 233 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 2: a her blanket as she calls it, and I've heard 234 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 2: it's not uncommon. About two thirds of children in the 235 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 2: West form a strong emotional attachment to a teddy bear 236 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 2: or a blanket. Now, what starts off, I think is 237 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 2: a simple sensory support thing that helps them to get 238 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 2: off of sleep at night and add some sort of 239 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 2: security if you like this, sometimes called security blankets. 240 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 3: These objects soon. 241 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 2: Become irreplaceable and they're anthropomorphized. In other words, children treat 242 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 2: them as if they are entities which have thoughts and 243 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 2: feelings and get lonely. We did an experiment that children 244 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 2: who had attachment objects mentalized them. They thought that they 245 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 2: had mental states, and what makes them essentialize is that 246 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 2: they're irreplaceable. So we did other experiments with Paul Bloom, 247 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 2: the psychologists, where we create this illusion where we could 248 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: duplicate any object, a toy or a blanket or anything, 249 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 2: and we asked the children whether or not. 250 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 3: They were different or not. 251 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 2: And children were very happy for any object, any of 252 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 2: their favorite toys, to be duplicated. But once you offered 253 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 2: the opportunity to put their blanket, their unique sentimental object, 254 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 2: into a machine which appears to duplicate it, they were 255 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 2: really distressed by that. And I think that speaks to 256 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 2: the idea that they didn't like the idea that you 257 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 2: could somehow, you know, copy something which is authentic, and 258 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 2: that is actually a behavior which manifests in adults. When 259 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 2: you think about the value that we placed on authentic 260 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 2: objects and. 261 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 3: Works of art. 262 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 2: A work of art is valuable by its providence, by 263 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 2: its authenticity, by its origins. And if you had two 264 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 2: identical works of art that you couldn't tell the difference 265 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 2: between That would be really difficult for someone who really 266 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 2: has an emotional attachment to the original. So I think 267 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 2: it's a connection between are processing about objects and identity 268 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 2: and this emotional tag that we add to it, like 269 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 2: this internal metaphysical property which makes it unique and irreplaceable. 270 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: So give us you've got a great example about a 271 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: cardigan sweater. Give us that example. 272 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 2: So I think one of the best demonstrations, if you like, 273 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 2: of central reasoning is the contagion effect. So if I 274 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 2: was to offer you a cardigan sweater and say, David, 275 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 2: would you put this on for twenty dollars, you probably say, yeah, sure, 276 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 2: twenty dollars, I'll put it on, depending how how much 277 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 2: you need the twenty dollars. If I then say it 278 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 2: to you, well, would you still put this cardigan on 279 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 2: if you knew it belonged to Jeffrey Dahmer or Fred 280 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,919 Speaker 2: West or whatever cereal curry you can think of? And 281 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: then immediately people feel a revulsion and repugnance, a kind 282 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: of sense of disgust and the idea of coming into 283 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 2: physical contact with a cardigan as if it somehow contains 284 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 2: the essence of the former murderer. So I think that's 285 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 2: a fascinating demonstration that people evoke all sorts of ideas 286 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 2: or metaphysical notions about E manifesting or contaminating the physical world. 287 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 2: Now it turns out, of course, whenever I've done this, 288 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 2: it's not a real it's not really it doesn't really 289 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 2: belong to Jeffrey Dahmer, Fred West. But the mere mention 290 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 2: of that is enough to make people feel disgusted. So 291 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 2: you might say, oh, well, that's just simple association. As 292 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 2: soon as you say the names of famous serial killers, 293 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 2: of course people are going to feel revolted and disgusted. 294 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 2: But I think it's a really interesting counter example. So 295 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 2: for example, if I say would you hold a book, 296 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 2: and I give you a book, a cookery book, for example, 297 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,360 Speaker 2: you say, no problem with that cookery book. I said, 298 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 2: what have you discovered that actually this was the personal 299 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,479 Speaker 2: possession of Aldolf Hitler out of Hitler's cookery book. Then 300 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 2: people would go, well, that's rather disgusting, that's murder billy. 301 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 2: You don't want to have anything to do with that. 302 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 2: So it could be you could argue, well, maybe that's 303 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 2: because you've used the word of out of Hitler. But 304 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 2: if I was to offer you a biography of out 305 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 2: of Hitler, then you wouldn't feel the same discuss it's 306 00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 2: the personal contact that this supposed book has had which 307 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 2: triggers this kind of intuitive notion of essentialism. And that's 308 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 2: what I find very fascinating because it explains a lot 309 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 2: of our attitudes to contamination. It explains a lot of 310 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 2: explains a lot of prejudices about not coming into contact 311 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 2: with peoples are maintaining a certain distances is what they 312 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 2: do in traditional Indian societies with the cast system. There's 313 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 2: a notion in which people do not want to come 314 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 2: into physical contact, and I think that's because of a 315 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 2: kind of naive biological theory or germ theory that they 316 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 2: think is operating. 317 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 1: So we talked about dualism and we talked about essentialism. 318 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: In your book, you had one more pillar upon which 319 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 1: supernatural thinking lies. 320 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 2: Causal reasoning might be one of the issues, which is 321 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 2: theological that people think things happen for a purpose, so 322 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:49,719 Speaker 2: they evoke causal mechanisms, were causal determinists, so we can't 323 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 2: easily see randomness. In fact, the brain is not set 324 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 2: up for this. You'll know this is neuroscientist that we 325 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 2: invariably impose structure and order everywhere. So this explains why 326 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 2: people see patterns all the time and they infer causality. 327 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 2: And you know, if they have a dream about somebody 328 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 2: dying and by chance the person does die, they think 329 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 2: that's a prophecy. 330 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 3: And so people. 331 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 2: Immediately see all the coincidences as being auspicious, when in 332 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 2: fact we're surrounded in the sea of random chance and coincidence, 333 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 2: but we only ever notice the ones which seem to 334 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 2: be sort of important or poignant, and this leads us 335 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 2: to draw all sorts of sort of causal mechanisms about 336 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 2: how we can predict the future and so on. So 337 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 2: that's another example of a mechanism which is very common. 338 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 3: We can't help but see structure. 339 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 2: In order, and that's a good thing because that's one 340 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 2: of the ways that we make inferences in the world 341 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 2: when we see causality. 342 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: So give us an example of the kind of supernatural 343 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: thinking that we see coming out of that. 344 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 2: So one of the most common forms of that behavior 345 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,719 Speaker 2: is in sports rituals. So for example, let's say you 346 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 2: go into the you know, to the tennis court, and 347 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 2: you have a particularly great day so you start to say, 348 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:03,479 Speaker 2: what did I do differently? And I say, oh, I 349 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 2: was wearing that pair of socks, and you decide to 350 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 2: put them on the next sit. You don't normally wear 351 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 2: that pair of socks, so you're trying to make sense 352 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 2: of what happened, and you put them on another day 353 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 2: and guess what, you have another good day at tennis. 354 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 2: And soon, very quickly that becomes a ritual and it 355 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 2: becomes shaped by operating conditioning. This is from psychology, so 356 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 2: we know that you know animals and humans, their behavior 357 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 2: becomes shaped by reinforcement, and soon that becomes part of 358 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 2: your ritual. And what's interesting is that actually it does 359 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 2: work in some sense because it gives you a sense 360 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 2: of control. If you think about it. A lot of 361 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 2: the rituals that we have are often to do with 362 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 2: very important life events like birth's, deaths, starting a new business, 363 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 2: all the sorts of major transitions in life. We want 364 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 2: to try and control them, and that's why we have 365 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 2: all these additional rituals to provide a sense of control 366 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 2: over that. So, yeah, even though it may start off 367 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 2: as a spontaneous kind of quirk, it soon becomes part 368 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 2: of the whole habit preparing for that match, and that 369 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 2: might prepare or give the player as the confidence. 370 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: Something that's so fascinating is that it's so difficult to 371 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: shake this kind of intuitive reasoning that we do about 372 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: the world, even among philosophers or scientists. This is with us. 373 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: So as an example, I'm sure you know this question 374 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 1: about the Star Trek transporter, which is, if I were 375 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: to step into the Star Trek transporter and it degrades me, 376 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: it pulls me apart adam by adam, and reconstructs me 377 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: on the surface of the planet. 378 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 3: Is that me? 379 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: Because it's just a bunch of atoms that were put 380 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: together on the surface of the planet. So did I 381 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: die and someone else came about? And then there's a 382 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,479 Speaker 1: second version of this transporter philosophical question, which is, what 383 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 1: if the transporter breaks me down into all my atoms 384 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: and then shoots those atoms themselves over to the planet 385 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: and then it's reconstructed. And people often feel better about 386 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: the second scenario because it seems like, Okay, well, they're 387 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: my atoms and you're just putting them back together like 388 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: a jigsaw puzzle. So this is an issue of both 389 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 1: the essentialism and the dualism. But this proves really hard 390 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: for us to shake these sorts of cognitive architectures that 391 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: we've grown up on. 392 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I love that example of the transporter. It builds. 393 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 2: It's actually a modern version of the Ship of Theseus, 394 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 2: which was the parable or the story of the King 395 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 2: of Greece. When he died, they put a ship into storage, 396 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 2: and the shipwrights went back to look at it each year, 397 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 2: and they noticed that some of the planks need replacing, 398 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 2: so they eventually they replace the planks to the extent 399 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 2: eventually none of the original wood is left on show. 400 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 2: So the question is is it still the ship of Theseus? 401 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 2: And if that transition happens gradually, people think, oh, yeah, 402 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 2: it's just like you're just renovating or repairing a ship. 403 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 2: But it's still the ship of Thesius, even though it 404 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 2: doesn't contain any of the original material. And then you say, okay, 405 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 2: let's assume they never threw that wood away, are you. 406 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 2: Now they re construct a second ship, which is the 407 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 2: Ship of Thesis. And this really throws people because identity 408 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 2: and unique attachment that we have to thinks that we 409 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 2: care about evoke this essential notion and it is a 410 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 2: kind of metaphysical property. 411 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: And by the way, what I've read, I don't know 412 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: how to verify this, but what I read is that 413 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: about half of the philosophers in Athens at the time 414 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: felt that this was the original ship and half felt 415 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: that it was not. So this is great. Yeah, it's 416 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: been a problem for a long time. 417 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I was just going to add there was 418 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 2: another famous philosoph, Well he's not that famous, but his 419 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 2: name was dun Scottis, and that's where we get the 420 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 2: word dunce from Dune. Scottis was a medieval philosopher, and 421 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 2: he made the distinction between essences of a group and 422 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 2: essences for the individual. So what we've been talking about 423 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 2: is what he would call haseity, which is the unique 424 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,719 Speaker 2: essence which specifies a unique individual. But we also essentialize groups, 425 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 2: and this is how you get prejudiced. So you say 426 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 2: they're all alike or they've all got something like that, 427 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 2: and that's that's quidity. So within essentialism literature, there are 428 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 2: two distinctions. The essence of the group defines the membership 429 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 2: of that group, and then the unique individual, which is 430 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 2: the hasty. So all dogs have quidity because their dogginess 431 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 2: but your Fido, your pet dog, has his own sort 432 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 2: of hasity. So it's an interesting distinction to draw. But 433 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 2: of course hasity and quidity are metaphysical, they're complete concept 434 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 2: their conceptual. We just invoke them when we're categorizing and 435 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 2: drawing distinctions between groups and individuals and unique ones. 436 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: It sounds like he was a thoughtful person. Why did 437 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: the word dunce come from his name. 438 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 2: Because they thought he was just because it was he 439 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 2: was basically criticizing Plato. Plato was very much from the 440 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 2: sort of you know, the group identities really, so they 441 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 2: were I remember what was going on at the time, 442 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 2: but that's the origin of the word does. But it 443 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 2: was a whole the phosophers, you know what they're like. 444 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 2: There was arguing about these sorts of things. But the 445 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 2: point is that, and I always like to just mention this, David. 446 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 2: I always go back to the Lord of the flies, 447 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 2: The Lord of the flies, you know, the William Golding story. 448 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 3: Of course, of these sort of kids. 449 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 2: Abandoned on an island, and people ask me, well, you know, 450 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 2: are we teaching our kids all these belief systems? And 451 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 2: I say, well, just imagine a real Lord of the 452 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 2: fly scenario. Where you drop a bunch of kids on 453 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 2: an island and you give them no culture, what would 454 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 2: they do? And I would argue that they would spontaneously 455 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 2: generate the gods and the demons and the spirits and 456 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 2: all the sorts of things that we find in today's culture, 457 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 2: because that's how we make sense of the world, and 458 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 2: it's how we understand it, interpret it, and try and 459 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 2: gain a sense of control. So I think it's actually 460 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 2: part of the natural condition of the human mind to 461 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: generate all these extra you know, accounts and explanations. 462 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,360 Speaker 1: And what's your take about where we are right now 463 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: with artificial intelligence coming into its own and soon humanoid 464 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 1: robotics everywhere in terms of our desire to anthromorphize. 465 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 2: Well, athropromorphism is of course, again something that children will 466 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 2: spontaneously do. It's in our nature to kind of treat 467 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 2: things as intentional agents and see them as purposeful. The 468 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 2: late flosser Dan Dennett use the term the intentional stance, 469 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,479 Speaker 2: and he argued that when you infer intentionality is an 470 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 2: easy way to interact with a complex system because you 471 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 2: can see is goal directed, and all you have to 472 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 2: try and do is figure out what its goals are. 473 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 2: I think AI is going to play into that. So 474 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 2: I think we've got a new generation of people growing 475 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 2: up more familiar with the technology, and AI and the 476 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 2: large language models, as everyone's discovering, are incredibly good at 477 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 2: simulating human thought and human actions. So I think it 478 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 2: will be an interesting future with our interactions with these things. 479 00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:00,040 Speaker 2: I would imagine that there might be a premium for 480 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 2: having real human interaction, and maybe I don't know, as 481 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 2: the technology gets more indistinguishable from real humans, that might 482 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 2: present a real problem to our natural tendency to try 483 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 2: and identify with who we're speaking with. 484 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 3: So I think it will upset a lot of people. 485 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And I just did 486 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: an episode with our friend Alison Gopnik about her view 487 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: with some of her colleagues is that we should be 488 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: looking at these large language models as a cultural technology, 489 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: essentially like a library, a way of collecting lots of 490 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: information and disseminating in different ways. But it's precisely because 491 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: we're so prone to anthromorphizing that we can't help but 492 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: assume it is an intelligent agent and treat it like 493 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: a human. 494 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 2: Well, the interesting thing is, you probably remember The first 495 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 2: chat bought was Eliza, which was building back in nineteen 496 00:28:55,520 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 2: sixty seven, which was basically a low project to try 497 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 2: and stimulate Raggierian therapy where you just repeat the question back. 498 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 2: And what they found was even though the people working 499 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 2: on it in you it was actually a piece of software, 500 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 2: they nevertheless enjoyed interacting with it because it actually felt 501 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 2: therapeutic to talk to them to a program. 502 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 3: So, yeah, we are. 503 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 2: We're very biased towards nthropomorphism, and I think we can 504 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,719 Speaker 2: easily be fooled and seduced by it. 505 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, there's one more piece of that 506 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: that I'm just working on this now. But I'm even 507 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to phrase this. But I 508 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: recently wrote a substack article about AI bots that engage 509 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: in debate online and whether they can change the other 510 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: person's mind, And the answer is they're quite good. They're 511 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: much better at humans than changing the other person's mind. 512 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: In part this is because they argue genuinely and they 513 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: don't insult, and they try to be empathic and so on, 514 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: and so they actually have better debating skills because of that. 515 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: There's an interesting question that came up, which is can 516 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: we even use the term lying. So let's say the 517 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: AI bought pretends to be a black man arguing for something. 518 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: The question is is it lying. Well, it's not lying 519 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: anymore than if it pretended to be a white man 520 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: or any person, because it's been trained on the entirety 521 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: of humankind and so we can't even use words like 522 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: it's lying. Instead, it's just representing one facet of what 523 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: it is. 524 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 2: Well, of course lying, yeah, I guess. I mean what 525 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 2: we're doing when we're interacting with humans and interacting with 526 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 2: machines as we're inferring different levels of intentionality. 527 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 3: So a machine is. 528 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 2: Of just a very complex set of algorithms and data. 529 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 2: It doesn't have intentionality as such, whereas when you're interacting 530 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 2: with another sentient human then there's a whole set of 531 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 2: other factors that we're entering into. What is this is 532 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 2: a SoCal theory of mind that we evoke, which is 533 00:30:58,840 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 2: one of their goals? 534 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 3: What do they want? 535 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 2: And you know, with good cause we have reasons to 536 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 2: be sort of suspicious. Now, we can't be suspicious of technology, 537 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 2: but it's only as a proxy of someone who programmed it, 538 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 2: but not suspicious of the machine per se. Or whatever 539 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 2: the interface you're dealing with. So I guess what I'm 540 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 2: saying is that when you interact with what is another 541 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 2: sentient human, then I think we're much more Our guard 542 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 2: is up a lot, although we do tend, of course 543 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 2: to trust humans more than we trust machines. So I 544 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 2: suppose I'm kind of contradicting that to some extent, but 545 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,479 Speaker 2: I can see how the inference of intentionality is an 546 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 2: important premise upon which to kind of make a judgment 547 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 2: about whether lying is taking place. 548 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: That was my interview with psychologist Bruce Hood, and we 549 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: talked about why humans, all humans and all cultures in 550 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: all times hold irrational beliefs. We talked about dualism and 551 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: essentialism and our brains need to assign structure in order 552 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: to things that are actually random. The lesson that emerges 553 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: is that supernatural thinking is something that's not just restricted 554 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: to superstitious people, but instead it reflects a central feature 555 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: of how the human mind works. If you are a 556 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: regular listener to this podcast, you've heard me talk about 557 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: how the brain is locked in silence and darkness inside 558 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: the skull, and its job is to make sense of 559 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: the thin, little trickle of input that it's receiving. It's 560 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: all about meaning making. Our brains are shaped by millions 561 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: of years of evolution, and they aren't just passively recording 562 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: the world. They interpret, they infer, they guess, they imbue 563 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: the world with meaning. So what Bruce terms supersense is 564 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: the whole system working as it is supposed to. These 565 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: cognitive habits presumably helped our ancestors survive in a world 566 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: full of uncertainty. It is better to assume that there's 567 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: a predator lurking behind the bush and to be wrong, 568 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: than to assume you are safe when you're not. And 569 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: just note that the reflex to avoid a murderer's sweater, 570 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: or the feeling that someone's watching you, or the instinct 571 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: to believe in fate or signs or karmic retribution, these 572 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: don't happen because your parents taught them to you. They 573 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: emerge naturally from the architecture of the mind. These are 574 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: the shadows cast by a brain wired to detect threats 575 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:45,959 Speaker 1: and connections, to build invisible bridges between cause and effect. 576 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: Sometimes the wiring overshoots, and we see patterns where there 577 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: aren't any We feel intention where there's only randomness. We 578 00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: imagine essences and objects. We look at some visible event 579 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: and imagine invisible forces behind us. Now, that leads to 580 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: strange behaviors and beliefs sometimes, but from the brain's point 581 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: of view, that instinct is also what allows us to empathize, 582 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: to believe in justice, to tell stories, to imagine better worlds. 583 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,319 Speaker 1: In other words, the same circuitry that gives rise to 584 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 1: magical thinking is what allows us to wonder, to hope, 585 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: to hypothesize invisible forces like gravity, to fall in love 586 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: with things that don't technically exist, like nations or ideals, 587 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: or the person that someone might become. So it's hard 588 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: to say we'd be better off without it. Sometimes we 589 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: need beliefs. So even as science offers better explanations for 590 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: the world, like this disease was caused by germs instead 591 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: of a shaman's curse, we're still going to find ourselves 592 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: drawn to the invisible. Our brains are all we have 593 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: to view the world through. We are human, and we're flawed, 594 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: and even skeptical people still whisper wishes into birthday candles 595 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,280 Speaker 1: and still say something to their passed away loved ones 596 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 1: and quiet moments. So one lesson that emerges from Bruce's work, 597 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: I think isn't only about suppressing these impulses, but more 598 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 1: deeply understanding them. To see the brain as an engine 599 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: that generates meaning, one that sometimes creates ghosts and gods 600 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,760 Speaker 1: and other times creates music and literature and political ideas. 601 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: In the end, we're all navigating a world way too 602 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: vast and complex for us to fully understand. So your 603 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 1: brain does what it can. It connects dots in the dark, 604 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 1: it tells stories. So tonight, when you're lying in bed 605 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 1: and you hear a creak in the floorboards and you 606 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,839 Speaker 1: think you feel the weight of someone's presence even though 607 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: you're alone, pay attention. That's your brain humming its old tune, 608 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: the tune that kept your ancestors alive, and that allows 609 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: you to extrapolate ideas about what could be. Go to 610 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: eagleman dot com slash podcast for more information and to 611 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: find further reading. Check out my newsletter on substack and 612 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,359 Speaker 1: be a part of the online chats there. You can 613 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: watch the videos of Inner Cosmos on YouTube, where you 614 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 1: can leave comments. Until next time, I'm David Eagleman, and 615 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: this is Inner Cosmos.