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Speaker 1: Hi, everybody. Robert Evans here and my novel After the

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Speaker 1: Revolution is available for pre order now from a k

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Speaker 1: press dot org. Now, if you go to a k

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Speaker 1: press dot org you can find After the Revolution. Just

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Speaker 1: google a k press dot org After the Revolution you'll

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Speaker 1: find a list of participating indie bookstores selling my book.

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Speaker 1: And if you pre order now from either these independent

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Speaker 1: bookstores or from a k Press, you'll get a custom

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Speaker 1: signed copy of the book, which I think is pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: You can also pre order it in physical or in

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Speaker 1: kindle a form from Amazon or pretty much wherever books

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Speaker 1: are sold. So please google a k press after the

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Speaker 1: Revolution um or find an indie bookstore in your area

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Speaker 1: and pre order it. You'll get assigned a copy and

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Speaker 1: you'll make me very happy. Welcome back to what is

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Speaker 1: either Behind the doll Up or doll Up the Bastards,

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Speaker 1: a podcast that, no matter what name we choose for

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Speaker 1: it is about tickling. Absolutely this, finally, is that's how

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Speaker 1: you make us feel at home. Thank you. Do you

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Speaker 1: think anyone has ever tickled Kissinger? I can't imagine. I

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Speaker 1: cannot picture it in my head. This is the way

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Speaker 1: he would laugh. Stop that. I'm going to work my

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Speaker 1: pants that I just try to imagine him whispering into

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Speaker 1: the ears of a sexual partner something about the business

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Speaker 1: I'm about. Then I'm going to know it would be

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Speaker 1: more like I'm going to end this cannot say burned

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Speaker 1: corps and that one of us makes it out a lie.

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Speaker 1: I actually did. While we were taking a break in

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Speaker 1: between episodes, I had a moment where I actually did

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Speaker 1: for the first time in my life, I felt a

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Speaker 1: profound sense of solidarity with Henry Kissinger. My cat is

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Speaker 1: named Saddam Hussein, and as I was feeding him during

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Speaker 1: the break, I realized, like Kissinger did at one point,

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Speaker 1: he's gotten much bigger. Saddam has gotten much larger than

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Speaker 1: I ever thought he would. You know this is I

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Speaker 1: did not anticipate this. Yeah, well that's because a lot

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Speaker 1: to love what you just said. Both make the same mistake.

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Speaker 1: Oh so uh, let's uh, let's get get right back down.

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Speaker 1: What is for Kissinger memory Lane, and is what for

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Speaker 1: everyone else is Nightmare Avenue. Um, because this is the

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Speaker 1: story about why Vietnam lasted an extra half decade. Um,

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Speaker 1: good time, We're gonna have a fun one here. So.

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Speaker 1: One of the many downsides of an intellectual upbringing, like

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Speaker 1: the one Henry Kissinger experienced, is that he spent a

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Speaker 1: lot of time surrounded by people you might call political technologists. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is a term I first heard in Ukraine from

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Speaker 1: civilians describing Paul Manafort. That's what they called them. Political

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Speaker 1: That's yeah, yeah, these like hired guns who come in

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Speaker 1: and help anybody who just happens to like have government money,

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Speaker 1: like doing literally anything. Right. Um, they're guys like his mentor,

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Speaker 1: Professor Elliott, and like Harvard economist Thomas Schnelling, who advised

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Speaker 1: powerful elected leaders, and like they all of the way

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Speaker 1: in which they think about the mechanisms of government are

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Speaker 1: very mathematic and inhuman, right, Um, those are the people

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Speaker 1: that Kissinger patterns him self off of. Now, Schnelling, who

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Speaker 1: are Shelling? Who we just Thomas Shelling, who's a Harvard

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Speaker 1: economists we just introduced, was one of Kissinger's other mentors,

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Speaker 1: um and Shelling. At the same time as he's he's

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Speaker 1: working at Harvard and mentoring Kissinger is advising the Eisenhower

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Speaker 1: administration on moral calculus in the early stages of the

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Speaker 1: Cold War. Shelling argues that calculus, moral calculus, have you

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Speaker 1: never you never talked about that with anybody. He's not

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Speaker 1: a com no sorry no, I mean I was terrible

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Speaker 1: at calculus. I was a world So well, you can't

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Speaker 1: be moral and no calculus, which is why you know,

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Speaker 1: like pole pot, I'm going to eventually set all of

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Speaker 1: my listeners after people who know math. That's that's the

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Speaker 1: right there. How did we get We're not sure, sir,

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Speaker 1: No idea, no way in calculable. People keep trying to

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Speaker 1: tell us, and we just kill him. Adam to the

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Speaker 1: pile someone at two numbers, but we were unable to

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Speaker 1: We can't negotiate it. So Shelling is advising the Eisenhower

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Speaker 1: administration on moral calculus in the Cold War, and Shelling's

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Speaker 1: argument is that whether you were quote deterring the Russians

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Speaker 1: or your own children, the proper tactic was to figure

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Speaker 1: out the right ratio of threat to incentive. Already, Shelling

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Speaker 1: might be the quickest I've ever described a person and

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Speaker 1: had it be clear like, well that's a bastard. That's

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Speaker 1: not okay obviously, So since I have no human feelings,

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Speaker 1: I have to figure out this and children and yeah,

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Speaker 1: children in the Soviet government only understand one thing, threats.

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Speaker 1: Can I have more ice cream dead. Put your hand

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Speaker 1: in the drawer and find out. Now, I'm gonna tell

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Speaker 1: you something, Jimmy, you go for that ice cream. I

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Speaker 1: have a loaded thirty eight on the table table. Now

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Speaker 1: one of the chambers is empty, Jimmy. So if you

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Speaker 1: get that ice cream, I just want to go to bed.

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Speaker 1: I don't like dessert. Just feel like moral calculus is

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Speaker 1: not the way to go with the ice crea. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you could just say no if you don't want him

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Speaker 1: to have dessert. Any dad can say no. I'm learning.

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Speaker 1: So while Henry was teaching at Harvard, and this is

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Speaker 1: before he gets me into the last episode of getting

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Speaker 1: that gig with the Council on Foreign Relations writing about

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Speaker 1: nuclear policy. In the period before that, when like Shelling

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Speaker 1: is his mentor, Henry learns a lot from him, and

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Speaker 1: he walks away from their relation and ship with the

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Speaker 1: belief that quote bargaining power comes from the capacity to hurt,

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Speaker 1: to cause quote sheer pain and damage. She means its

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Speaker 1: fucking Christ where you're just kind of waiting for this

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Speaker 1: person to step into the vacuum essentially right like you're

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Speaker 1: waiting for someone to be like, you know, there's actually

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Speaker 1: a bottom that's under the bottom, like, oh, oh my lord,

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Speaker 1: it's like this ship Like if that were true, We're

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Speaker 1: all watching this situation unfold between Russia and Ukraine where

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Speaker 1: you've got like a lot of people with the ability

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Speaker 1: to hurt a lot of people on both sides, and

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Speaker 1: you know what, it doesn't seem like negotiations are going great. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: not really. Maybe that's not a good basis to proceed

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Speaker 1: from anything. Yeah, I mean, I just I can't believe that.

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Speaker 1: It's it's the craziest fucking idea. It's not. It's not.

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Speaker 1: It's not negotiating. You go into negotiations, you're like, I'm

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Speaker 1: probably not going to get what I want. We're going

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Speaker 1: to try and get the best we can. And he's

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Speaker 1: just like, how much can I fucking hurt you? And

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Speaker 1: you give me if you spend enough time like I

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Speaker 1: do around like gun culture people on the right in particular,

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Speaker 1: there's these folks who like usually have never done anything

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Speaker 1: like in the military themselves, but they read a bunch

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Speaker 1: of like books by Navy seals and ship and they'll

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Speaker 1: say ship, like you should have a plan to kill

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Speaker 1: everyone in every room you walk into, and like their

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Speaker 1: frame is that like the world's dangerous. You gotta be ready.

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Speaker 1: And I think any reasonable person is like, well, you

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Speaker 1: are someone who should not have a gun. You should

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Speaker 1: not have a gun. You are out of your entire

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Speaker 1: damn mind. It's a guy who should never be negotiating,

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Speaker 1: absolutely not ready to kill someone. Is like, you know what,

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Speaker 1: don't go into rooms. That's just gonna be your thing.

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Speaker 1: You know, don't stay in your house. You got a

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Speaker 1: one room. You know, I could I could tell your throat,

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Speaker 1: I could reach across the table, tell your throat out

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Speaker 1: and stab you in the ice with ice picks. I'm

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Speaker 1: just we're just talking about what he wants cream her

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Speaker 1: ice cream. Dan. So, Henry gets his gig at the

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Speaker 1: at the sea a far and so he's the thing

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Speaker 1: he's he's producing for the Council on Foreign Relations for

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Speaker 1: his his buddy the Rockefeller. It's supposed to be like

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Speaker 1: a report on how the US is it like it

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Speaker 1: should use nuclear weapons, different ways in which they could

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Speaker 1: approach it. Right. And while he's writing this report, because

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Speaker 1: it's it's with this thing takes a very very long

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Speaker 1: process getting this out, he also starts working privately on

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Speaker 1: a book of his own titled Nuclear Weapons. And foreign policy.

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Speaker 1: And this book is a version of the stuff he

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Speaker 1: wants to write, and this thing he's like fighting to get,

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Speaker 1: yeah kind of. But also it's it's actually very smart

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Speaker 1: what he does, well, it'll take us a second to

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Speaker 1: get there. So this book that Kissinger writes, that's his

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Speaker 1: like own project, criticizes US threats of full nuclear scale

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Speaker 1: nuclear attack in response to Soviet aggression. Nil Ferguson sums

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Speaker 1: it up in this way quote with his skill for

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Speaker 1: simplifying and expressing complex ideas, Kissinger put the issue starkly.

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Speaker 1: The dilemma of the nuclear period can therefore be defined

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Speaker 1: as follows. The enormity of modern weapons makes the thought

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Speaker 1: of ward repugnant, but the refusal to run any risks

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Speaker 1: would a'm out to giving Soviet rule as a blank check.

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Speaker 1: Kissinger's conclusions were not original. The study group at the

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Speaker 1: Council was almost unanimate as Senate's desire to find some

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Speaker 1: alternative to Eisenhower's stated policy in Many defense intellectuals, most

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Speaker 1: notably Bernard Brodie and Basil little Heart, had also written

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Speaker 1: on the subject of limited nuclear war. Kissinger's book demonstrated

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Speaker 1: his talent as a creative synthesizer of their ideas, drawing

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Speaker 1: out the implications of their work and arguing that for

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Speaker 1: America's Cold War diplomacy to have any real substance, the

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Speaker 1: US had to accept the possibility of the limited use

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Speaker 1: of nuclear weapons. That Kissinger's own solution of limited nuclear

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Speaker 1: war was also highly problematic, was less important to many

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Speaker 1: contemporary observers than that it broke free from the strait

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Speaker 1: jacket of the Eisenhower administration's policy. So, but where does

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Speaker 1: he describe, like where you would use it. It's like

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Speaker 1: it's like a tactical battlefield book. It's like to win

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Speaker 1: battlefield victories to like in Vietnam, he will briefly flirt,

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Speaker 1: well not even know all that briefly, but he will

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Speaker 1: consider using nuclear weapons to cut off access between Vietnam

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Speaker 1: and China, which isn't like as a as a layman,

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Speaker 1: you can cut off trains in another way, presumably, right,

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Speaker 1: I've seen the general with buster kat and you can

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Speaker 1: throw some bogs on it. There there are these other

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Speaker 1: things called bombs, just bombs. Yeah, so it really, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it is kind of just itchy trigger figure and it

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Speaker 1: is like if you live in the realm of this

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Speaker 1: sort of dark thinking, how are you not going to start,

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Speaker 1: you know, thinking of ways that are just even more

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Speaker 1: vicious brutal. He's basically saying, they need to think we're

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Speaker 1: a chained mad dog. And if we let the dog

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Speaker 1: off the leash once and he attacks the postman and

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Speaker 1: then and then everyone's gonna fucking then you can get

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Speaker 1: me anymore. Yeah, but then you stop. We've bombed to

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Speaker 1: pane already, Like everyone gets already of course, oh my god. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not like it's this theoretical weapon that's never been

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Speaker 1: used him and it worked pretty well as far as

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Speaker 1: making people be like, god, damn, they are out of

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Speaker 1: their minds. Yeah, the ship. Um. But it's also there's

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Speaker 1: a there's a factor here. A part of me wonders

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Speaker 1: if he even really believed about this or cared about

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Speaker 1: whether or not nukes should be used tactically, and if

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Speaker 1: it was more a matter of this is a big

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Speaker 1: debate of the day, and if I publicly take the

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Speaker 1: most contrarian thing intellectuals who don't really care about what works,

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Speaker 1: but who care about who's thinking creatively, right, Like that's

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Speaker 1: the thing He's like, Well, it's not about whether or

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Speaker 1: not his plan would work. It's about we're getting out

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Speaker 1: of this straight jacket. Eisenhower's put us in and it's like, no,

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Speaker 1: that's not all that matters. Yeah. Um, you know it's

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Speaker 1: really funny, just ironic about this is that funny places

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Speaker 1: like the Heritage Foundation for years have been have been

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Speaker 1: saying that Putin would use tactical battlefield nukes and that's

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Speaker 1: why he's unhinged. That's one of the reasons. You imagine,

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Speaker 1: I would say, anyone who would do that, he's crazy.

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Speaker 1: Imagine now, and I'll keep him on as an advisor. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that that's my feeling on nukes. Um, don't shoot them

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Speaker 1: at people ever bad. Maybe an Independence Day kind of situation.

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Speaker 1: I'll be honest. When I watch Independence Day, I think, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I might shoot some new I might at that point

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Speaker 1: try an grow too. Yeah, but you have Randy Quaid

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Speaker 1: I do. I do hang out with him a lot. Um.

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Speaker 1: That's my main plan. Things go wrong, Randy getting the plane.

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Speaker 1: He lives in my basement. That actually tracks from the

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Speaker 1: Instagram videos I've been saying. So. Kissinger's book was published

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Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty seven, and it almost immediately sold seventeen

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Speaker 1: thousand copies, which is a lot for a wonky book

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Speaker 1: on nuclear warfare. It is on the New York Times

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Speaker 1: bestseller list for fourteen weeks. Jesus Christ, Yeah it's not great. Now,

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Speaker 1: He's timing is perfect. He puts this book out right

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Speaker 1: as the Soviets make two big advances in Hungary, there's

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Speaker 1: like a revolution that they kind of crush, and then

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Speaker 1: in the Suez where like brings the British and the

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Speaker 1: Soviets are like stop or we'll do something bad, and

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Speaker 1: NATO like backs the funk off. Right, So the Soviets

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Speaker 1: have like two big kind of foreign policy wins in

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Speaker 1: this period, and Americans can't look at this as like, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe the fucking NATO shouldn't have been sucking

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Speaker 1: around the Suez, and yeah that ship in Hungary's sucked up,

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Speaker 1: but like maybe we can't do anything about it. They're like,

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Speaker 1: we should listen to the guy who says, what if

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Speaker 1: we nuked them? You know? Yeah, that's that's where people go, right, Um,

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Speaker 1: they don't. They they're they're Americans. They don't take the

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Speaker 1: rational route. Now they hate us for our nuclear freedom. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they listened to the critiest person in the room about this.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of things that you could say about

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Speaker 1: both what happened in Hungary and the Suez Crisis that

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Speaker 1: are not Why don't we use nukes more often? By

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Speaker 1: God kissing your knows his audience, you know, um Kissinger

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Speaker 1: writes this book, and The New York Times in their

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Speaker 1: review of it, right, for the first time since President

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Speaker 1: Eisenhower took office, officials at the highest government levels are

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Speaker 1: just playing interest in the theory of the little or

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Speaker 1: limited war. The theory of massive retaliation is re examined.

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Speaker 1: I love that those are that those go together, those

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Speaker 1: are the options. Yeah, and then it's like the little

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Speaker 1: war war is the nuclear war, Like it's the baby

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Speaker 1: war for us. Yeah, hit me out, hear me out,

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Speaker 1: baby nukes, slim tiny nukes. It's it's like if someone's like, look,

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Speaker 1: we got to decide if one of which of these

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Speaker 1: is going to be legal, Sarah nerve gas bombs for

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Speaker 1: civilians or or chlorine gas bombs for civilians. One type

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Speaker 1: of poison gas bomb has to be legal. Like we

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Speaker 1: all we have to have access. Everyone has to be

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Speaker 1: able to have one kind of poison gas is crazy.

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Speaker 1: What if nobody has those? God, that's not you know,

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Speaker 1: that's not where things go here. Um. So President Eisenhower

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Speaker 1: is given a summary of of Kissinger's book, because you know,

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Speaker 1: he's a president. They don't they don't read books. He gets, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he gets a cliff notes and he recommends it to

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Speaker 1: his Secretary of State John Foster Dullas, who we have

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Speaker 1: talked about quite a lot of God, yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: who like if if he's the rational mind, us is

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Speaker 1: being like this dude seems a little out of his

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Speaker 1: big problem. That's yeah, that's not great because John Foster

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Speaker 1: Dulas fucking monatic. So the vice president at this point

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Speaker 1: is a little dude you might have heard of called

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Speaker 1: Richard Millhouse Nixon. He gets photographed with a coff copy

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Speaker 1: of Henry Kissinger's book, which is not great. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's actually great for shats just not writing a screenplay.

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Speaker 1: This is great. Really, this is like season one of

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Speaker 1: The Nixon Show, and you just like see him with

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Speaker 1: Kissinger's book, right right, yeah, yeah, good television, you know.

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Speaker 1: So the book is successful enough that it provokes Rockefeller,

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Speaker 1: who gotten him the job at the CFR, to rush

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Speaker 1: out the report that Nixon had been or that Kissinger

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Speaker 1: had been making um and yeah, yeah, the report from

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Speaker 1: the CFR concludes, the willingness to engage in nuclear war

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Speaker 1: when necessary is part of the price of our freedom. Wow,

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Speaker 1: I mean the price of our freedom is pretty good price,

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Speaker 1: isn't it? It's expensive? Man? How can we how can

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Speaker 1: we live if we're not dead? Yeah? How can we

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Speaker 1: live without nuclear fallout? It's it's and it's amazing that

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Speaker 1: it like it all like if it was part of

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Speaker 1: his plan or not. Like you said, the timing is

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Speaker 1: just pretty remarkable to release this book and then it

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Speaker 1: actually shifts the way that they view this To me, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's actually he's got a really good point

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Speaker 1: in his best selling book of about how nukes are cool.

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Speaker 1: I am. I am excited for Ben Shapiro's book on

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Speaker 1: the same subject to lead to the annihilation of Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna live underground. So that's a good idea. So

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Speaker 1: this report is a weird like weirdly popular. Like again,

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Speaker 1: this is a report from the Center or the from

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Speaker 1: the CFR, from the Council on Foreign Relations, which is

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Speaker 1: like not you don't expect that to go viral, right,

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Speaker 1: you know read this pamphlet. Have you read this on

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Speaker 1: this link study by the CFR. I mean, American never

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Speaker 1: lets you down when you're like, oh, that won't happen,

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Speaker 1: that won't happen, that won't go. It does. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: Rockefeller actually goes on the Today Show to talk about

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Speaker 1: this report the CFR, like with Kissingers, I know, it's

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Speaker 1: it's amazing Macaroni castrole. So next, so he gives people

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Speaker 1: on the Today Show an address where they can write

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Speaker 1: for a copy of this report. They get forty requests

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Speaker 1: the first day and the next Hell's Post Office is overwhelmed.

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Speaker 1: The media, the US media called this report quote the

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Speaker 1: answer to Sputnik, which is like, hey, the Russian sent

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Speaker 1: in sent an unarmed ball into space to further exploration.

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Speaker 1: We should we this book about how everyone should be

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Speaker 1: nuking everyone. It's the answer to that. We're thinking that

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Speaker 1: this report on nuclear weapons will actually show the Russians

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Speaker 1: thout and not go to space. Yeah, that's space. If

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Speaker 1: you get rid of Russia, they can't go to space.

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Speaker 1: Do you understand? Yeah? And it is it's worth noting

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Speaker 1: because I think, like in our popular history, the answer

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Speaker 1: to Sputnik is the Apollo missions and it's framed beauty,

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Speaker 1: which you know did eventually happen. But no, the first

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Speaker 1: answer to Sputnik was a report about how we should

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Speaker 1: be nuking each other more often. They put a ball

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Speaker 1: in the orbit, So we should we should blow up.

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Speaker 1: We should be ready to drop thirteen nuclear warheads on

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Speaker 1: Berlin at a second's notice. That's what I showed him.

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Speaker 1: So this makes Henry kissing You're famous? Um, he is

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Speaker 1: all over the part. This is his? Is this? We've

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Speaker 1: become famous like some guy. Some guys watched the Today's

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Speaker 1: Show and he buys the book so we can tell

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Speaker 1: everybody at the Elk Club that we need to use nukes.

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Speaker 1: Someone give this accountant a soccer ball. Some people get

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Speaker 1: famous because their dad is one of O. J. Simpson's lawyers.

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Speaker 1: Some people get famous because they write a book about

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Speaker 1: how nuclear warfare is not that bad. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: just in fame. It's a crapshoot. Absolutely fuck. I mean,

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Speaker 1: imagine being an anti nuke person at this point, You're

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Speaker 1: just like, wait, what is what is going on? Read?

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Speaker 1: Have you read the report? It's so good. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: show him if what they should not be going to space. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: next time they put a satellite up, we're gonna kill

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Speaker 1: everyone in Paraguay. What we need to there is a

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Speaker 1: radiated country. So on July fourteenth, ninety eight, Mike Wallace

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Speaker 1: gives Henry Kissinger his first big break into the public sphere.

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Speaker 1: So it's happening, It really is. It really is just

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Speaker 1: fucking disgusting because I look, there's all the time on

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Speaker 1: our show where I'm like, it is the same ship.

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Speaker 1: But again, it's just media using its platform irresponsibly to

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Speaker 1: normalize things that are fucking batship. Yeah, it's great, like

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Speaker 1: sixty minutes having a whole segment on the Havanna fucking

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Speaker 1: sound Come on, Dave, you know that's real. I suffered

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Speaker 1: from that for two years. Those crickets. Oh man, I

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Speaker 1: I will say, like, the stupidest joke that I laugh

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Speaker 1: at every time is, yeah, I got Havanna syndrome. Having

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Speaker 1: another beer never doesn't get a chuckle out of me.

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Speaker 1: But we've we've done, We've had sixty it's come on,

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Speaker 1: six minutes. Did the the Satanic Scare ship? Well, yes,

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Speaker 1: they were big gamble and like they just run with

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Speaker 1: ideas that are crazy there, I mean because for for

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Speaker 1: people who are at the level Mike Wallace is, the

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Speaker 1: definition of journalist is not afflict the comfortable and comfort

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Speaker 1: the afflicted. It's be a giant ship head, right, a

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Speaker 1: huge ship head. Oh man. So Mike Wallace introduces Henry Kissinger,

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Speaker 1: the guy whose one achievement is a book about how

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Speaker 1: nukes are cool. By saying this, in the field of

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Speaker 1: foreign policy and military affairs, Dr Kissinger, You're acknowledged to

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Speaker 1: be one of the most penetrating minds in the country.

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Speaker 1: He's penetrating. Yes, penetrating like an Atlas missile penetrates the

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Speaker 1: cloud cover above a city full of women and children. Yeah. Wow. Now,

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Speaker 1: during the interview, Kissinger expressed that quote a capitalist society,

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Speaker 1: or what is more interesting to me, a free society,

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Speaker 1: is a more revolutionary phenomenon the nineteenth century socialism. I

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Speaker 1: think we should go on the spiritual offensive. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: spiritual spiritual with a nuclear extension with nukes. So he's connecting.

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Speaker 1: He's connecting nineteenth century socialists, member capitalism, current day capitalism,

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Speaker 1: and nukes. Those are the options. Yeah, and Mike Wallace

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Speaker 1: just empty headed least goes like I really love your property. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just smiles. And behind his eyes as a dial tone.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god. So this earns him finally the job

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Speaker 1: at Harvard that he'd coveted. This is why they give him.

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Speaker 1: Shut shut up. It's like whenever simple, I can't, I

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Speaker 1: cannot get over how fucking evil Harvard is. It's so good.

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Speaker 1: It is monstrous from it's the beast. It is a

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Speaker 1: horrific some of us with their uh anti Harvard action.

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Speaker 1: So he gets his Harvard job and he keeps writing.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty what's he doing at Harvard. He's like

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Speaker 1: teaching some ship you know, kissing your stuff type classes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: talking about Spangler a lot. Yeahs. Nukes are awesome too.

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Speaker 1: Nukes are awesome. Freedom is requires an absence of morality,

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Speaker 1: teaching kids good stuff, you know, teaching kids good things.

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Speaker 1: So in nineteen sixty one he publishes a book titled

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Speaker 1: The Necessity of Choice, which is his manifesto on how

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Speaker 1: the United States should approach foreign policy in the nineteen sixties.

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Speaker 1: It is not an optimistic piece of writing. Quote, the

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Speaker 1: United States cannot afford another decline like the one which

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Speaker 1: has characterized the past decade and a half, fifteen years

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Speaker 1: of more of a deterioration of our position in the

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Speaker 1: world such as we have experienced since World War Two,

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Speaker 1: would find us reduced to fortress America in a world

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Speaker 1: in which we had become largely irrelevant. Our margin of

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Speaker 1: survival has narrowed dangerously. What in the fund is he

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Speaker 1: talking about America losing influence? No, this is like the

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Speaker 1: height of American power, obviously to anyone who's not. But

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Speaker 1: but Kissinger is, he knows this is bullshit. He is

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Speaker 1: part of a group of people who are pushing if

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Speaker 1: you guys heard the term missile gap. No, in the

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Speaker 1: the early stages of the Kennedy administration, there is suddenly

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Speaker 1: this huge and this is both like in conversations that

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Speaker 1: people are having in d C and in like the media.

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Speaker 1: There's this constant talk of a missile gap, this idea

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Speaker 1: that these Soviets have outpaced us in missile development and

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Speaker 1: in the number of missiles they have, And there's talking

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Speaker 1: about like there's bomber gaps, there's tank gaps. There's talk

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Speaker 1: about like these gaps between this idea that is totally bullshit,

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Speaker 1: Like not that the Soviets have not made a lot

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Speaker 1: of weapons, so the Union makes plenty of weapons, but

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Speaker 1: the United there is no point in the Cold War

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Speaker 1: in which the United States is like out fucking gunned

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Speaker 1: to any degree that like has could be anyone reasonable

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Speaker 1: could call a missile gap. It just does not happen.

424
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 1: It feels like we're still responding to that today. To

425
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 1: be liked, you do first biolog shot, yea, and yeah,

426
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 1: it's it's it's this, it's it's this. It's not I

427
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: would say unhinged, but it's very reasonable because the the

428
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 1: argument comes primarily out of the Defense Department and the

429
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: growing defense industry, who it's great for them if everyone

430
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,399
Speaker 1: thinks there's a missile gap, like of course, yeah, you

431
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 1: gotta build a lot more weapons. We'll sell them to you.

432
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: I thought it's the place you can get Khaki's on

433
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 1: your rockets. But you have a missile Thank you, thank you,

434
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 1: welcome and we'll be right back. You know what. Yes,

435
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 1: actually this is time for an ad break. So you know,

436
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,199
Speaker 1: if you're looking for a way to dress up your

437
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 1: r n I n X knife missile before firing written

438
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 1: into some guys, car um, check out the missile gap.

439
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: We are back. So it's bullshit. The idea of the

440
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 1: missile gap and kids, and you're is smart enough to

441
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 1: know this. But he is one of the major proponents.

442
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: He's not one of the there's other guys who are

443
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: more influential pushing it, like actually within the halls of power, right,

444
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: because he's not super within the halls of power yet,

445
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: but he is. He's all over TV and ship like

446
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: he's a guy that you call now like once you

447
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: get in the rolodex of media people, you stay there.

448
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 1: You know, he's the new guy guy, a positive new guy.

449
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: There's people that you got the negative new guy and

450
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: the positive guys. And he's the guy who says we

451
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: don't have enough. You know the thing, We've ever not

452
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: had enough of nuclear weapons. Um. He is a big

453
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: part of why we have so many fucking nukes, um,

454
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: and why the Russians have so many nukes because once

455
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: the US, like, once you start this like we have

456
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: to build a lot more nukes, they're gonna build even

457
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: more nukes and like then you're gonna get to build

458
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 1: any more nukes because you can say they built so

459
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 1: many more nukes, we don't have enough nukes now, and

460
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: then you wind up with twelve thousand of them in

461
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: the world. I have a name for that, I can

462
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 1: I've come of the right now, nuclear arms race. That's cool,

463
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: and that's that's a neat one. Um, we finally a

464
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: term for it. We should nuke him. I mean that

465
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: would just be like the one thing. I would just

466
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 1: nuke him, Crockett handheld miss whatever we can do. What

467
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: about just a little a little tiny nuke that we

468
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: shoot into him and it explodes, But it's just a

469
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 1: little guy, just enough to take out Kissinger, just a

470
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: Kissinger clear weapon. Yeah, but he would just ingest And

471
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: I am now more Now I'm bigger and more upset.

472
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: It is. It is amazing to think about how seriously

473
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 1: this guy gets treated by everyone immediately, and how much

474
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: influence he's allowed to have on an incredibly dangerous thing.

475
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: And this is the same guy who got tricked by Tharainos,

476
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 1: the same by the fake blood lady and the turtleneck.

477
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: It's really amazing. Yeah, it's so funny. It's so funny.

478
00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: So uh, Kissinger is not again, he doesn't come up

479
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: with the idea of the missile gap, but he's like

480
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: a very influential voice in pushing this idea. Right, He's

481
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 1: a he's a part of this Um, So he doesn't

482
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: get there's if we could out honestly do a whole

483
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: episode on like why there's so many fucking nukes that

484
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: this would be a part of. But he is, he's

485
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 1: a factor in this massive arms build up. Um. And

486
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: he also starts, uh. But but he's also like he's

487
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 1: he's just doing this for careerism reasons because it gets

488
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: him in good with people who are in power. And

489
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 1: part of how you know that is that Kennedy not

490
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: a guy I'll give a lot of credit to. But

491
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: one of the things Kennedy says is that like, limited

492
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 1: nuclear war is insane, Like fuck you, Henry Kissinger. Um.

493
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: He doesn't say that, but he it. It gets made

494
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: clear the connections that Kissinger has in the in the

495
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 1: Kennedy administration make it clear that like, JFK does not

496
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: buy your attitudes on limited nuclear war, And so he

497
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,959
Speaker 1: stops talking about that to get he wants to become part.

498
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: He doesn't believe in ship, but he wants to be

499
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: in the JFK administration, right, So he stops pushing this

500
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: thing that makes him famous and saying other ship because

501
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: he'll get it'll get him close to power. And that's

502
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: all Henry Kisinger really cares about. So I wonder if

503
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: like the Today Show is calling up and he's like, yeah,

504
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: I'm not really doing nukes anymore. No, he comes on. Yeah,

505
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: the quote I'm gonna uote actually from Nil Ferguson. Here

506
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: he explains like what he starts doing on the Today

507
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: Showy Kissinger now advocated a convention alarms build up, since

508
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: the dividing line between conventional and nuclear weapons is more

509
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: familiar and therefore easier to maintain. He continued to insist

510
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: that the United States developed smaller nuclear weapons, but he

511
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: moved his own position to where he thought Kennedy's was.

512
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: In effect, the necessity of choice was something of a

513
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: job application, and Kissinger hoped Kennedy would make an offer.

514
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: So like, again, so doesn't really I mean, it's it's

515
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: just Marjorie Taylor Green. I mean it is the same

516
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: ship essentially, and it's like, you know, the sensationalism that

517
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: gets you the headlines and then once you're fit and

518
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 1: it's any it's really any form of our our pop

519
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: culture entertainment. Now, just get your name in the fucking

520
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: headlines and then define who you are, and then you

521
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: can like figure out what you actually and can actually

522
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: believe or how you're going to ride that to power,

523
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: but just make a bang. It's the it is, it's

524
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: it is like the political equivalent of a comedian like

525
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: saying a racial slur and then listening to the audience

526
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: to determine whether or not they're joking. Like that's like,

527
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: that's what he's doing. He's it's yeah, yeah, I mean

528
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: show up to a club, take your dick out, and

529
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: then write your hour. Yeah it's called it's Luis k backwards. Yeah,

530
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: it's the it's the Casey. I'm not going to figure

531
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: out what the it's Casey still. So this he does

532
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: not get exactly what he wants, but he gets part

533
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: of what he wants. His buddy, uh Nelson Rockefeller is

534
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: able to give him a part time consulting gig for

535
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: the National Security Advisor. So it's not but it's not

536
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: everything he wants. But he is now he's he has

537
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: like he's cracked his way, you know, like you you

538
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: start your way in and and it's unless you really

539
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: funk up. And by funk up, I mean don't get

540
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: a lot of people killed. You'll just get closer and

541
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: closer to power because that's how our system works. Um.

542
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: So you know, Kissinger is is obviously very conservative. Rockefeller

543
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: is not. Again, he's part of the Kennedy administration. This

544
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: is what I don't understand. Yeah, well, I we'll talk.

545
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: We're actually we're gonna talk shitload about that over the

546
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: next couple of episodes because this is like a consistent,

547
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: weird thing about him. Um. But like one of the

548
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: things Kissinger does is he oils Rockefeller with effusive claims

549
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: that Kennedy's inaugural a speech, which Rockefeller had helped with,

550
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: was so good he quote might become a registered Democrat, right, Like,

551
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: that's the kind of shit he says that, Like, I'm

552
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: almost a Democrat now because how good jfk speech was

553
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: so good. He doesn't believe in ship, Like he just

554
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: can't over emphasize that. Other than that, Henry Kissinger should

555
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: be very close to power. He believes strongly in that. Um,

556
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: and he believes in that as much as anyone's ever

557
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: believed in the Bible. Right. Um. He does not believe

558
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: in ideas at possible. I saw that Maryland did and

559
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: a sort of testament the present day. Would you like

560
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: to see where they called me Kissinger. Oh, I'm not

561
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: standing over this event. And look at what they're doing

562
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: to my sports club. See that's the fan art I

563
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: would him just like trying to fuck JFK with every

564
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 1: bit of charm in his German body. Oh dude, nobody

565
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: told me subway go over event. Look at this, you're

566
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: going to see everything goes my nuke. So JFK is

567
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: eventually assassinated by Bernard Montgomery Saints and l b J

568
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: takes over. Oh yeah, I mean history is is a

569
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: I got to read this banquet. I've got a pamphlet

570
00:32:54,000 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: for you myself. That's my length. So lb J is

571
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: the president now and and and lb J is like

572
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: between l G M j K. It's like a decade.

573
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: You know that the Democrats are in power, and lb

574
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: J is very good at exercising power, right, Um, And

575
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: he's also not super into Henry Kissinger. Um, he's not

576
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: against Henry Kissinger either, But Henry kind of is kept

577
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: in this weird like he's on the margins of power

578
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: during this period of time, right, which is yeah, well

579
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: not really because well he's there's no breath, there's there's

580
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: no good to hear. Um. While he's kind of on

581
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: the not you know, on the margins. He's able to

582
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: build connections with his many Republican lawmakers in their rights

583
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: as he does with Democrats, right, Like, that's what he's

584
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: doing while he's doing these like part time gigs with

585
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: the NSC and stuff, is he's he's making friends with

586
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: everybody he can. There is nobody's just he is just

587
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: a supreme networker. There is so much. When I was

588
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: a kid in speech and debate, one of the other

589
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: kids in the debate team with me was obsessed with Kissinger,

590
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: like read his books and stuff. Thought he would And

591
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: this was this thing that I heard too from like

592
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: family mers and stuff that like, well he was you know,

593
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: he wasn't always right, but it was he was doing

594
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: the hardest job anyone's ever had, and he was just

595
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: this really genius man and you can't really argue with him.

596
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: If you read about what he was saying, it's like, no,

597
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: he didn't believe in ship. He was he was a

598
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: genius at making people like him and that allowed him

599
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: to terrible things. Yeah, um, which I guess, like anyone

600
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: who's really dangerous in politics is that's as a version

601
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: of that guy right, like like that's that's all of them. Um.

602
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 1: But he's he's an interesting kind of that guy and

603
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 1: as a result, probably the most toxic kind of that

604
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: guy we've ever had in the United States. Um, which

605
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:57,439
Speaker 1: is saying something bad, Why don't um? But yeah, so yeah,

606
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: he makes all these connections. Um. He cutivates him, and

607
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: he keeps his name in the news. Right, that's a

608
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: big part of why he's able to do what it is. Later,

609
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: he keeps going on TV, keeps being on the radio,

610
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: he keeps being quoted and like cited and interviewed by

611
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 1: journalists for articles. Henry makes it known that like, if

612
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: you're a journalist, I'm easy to reach. I will give you,

613
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,760
Speaker 1: always give you a quote. You can always reach Henry

614
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: Kissinger for like a line or two on this thing,

615
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: you know, um, which is very smart of him. It's

616
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: it's very dumb and shameful and uh horrible for the journalists.

617
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: But like, God that they've learned. God, that doesn't happen anymore. Now.

618
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 1: I turned to the New York Times story published today

619
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: that described Nazis assaulting a book club as men with

620
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: a swastika flag. Someone pointed out, well, the the article

621
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: calls them Nazis. It's just all of the social media

622
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 1: they describe them that way. And I was like, oh,

623
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: I can't explain to you why I feel worse about that,

624
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: but I do. Yeah, it was not just it was

625
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: not just the dumb error. It was calcular. Yeah, moral calculus.

626
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 1: It's yeah, moral calculus, right, good good ship. Um. So

627
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: the professor cultivates connections, Yeah, he gets and he also

628
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 1: he goes to Vietnam at one point, and he makes

629
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: connections with a bunch of people in Vietnam who are

630
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: able to talk to not just the South but the

631
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: North Vietnamese government. Like that's the thing he consciously does

632
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: is like I want to be able to like be

633
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: able to take the temperature of like guys, which is

634
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 1: not like I would say, actually, like the most reasonable

635
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: thing he does. If you think you're going to be

636
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 1: in power, like, yeah, it's good, you probably want to

637
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: be able to talk to those guys. Even though we're

638
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: fighting with him. That's not an unreasonable thing. He will

639
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: use it badly. Who's he's doing that on the part

640
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: of it just himself? Yeah, well he he is working.

641
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: He has a gig with a guy he's like an

642
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 1: advisor to the National Security Council, and he's a known academic.

643
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: You know, he's probably being like, you know, I'm I'm

644
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: an academic. I'm trying to understand the dimensions of this

645
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 1: and like I want to talk to everybody. I'm a

646
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: very fair minded man. I don't let ideology get in

647
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: the way. YadA YadA, YadA um. Like one of the

648
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 1: things about Henry Kissinger too, like he's as good he

649
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: can he's he's fucking his buddies with maw, Like he's

650
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: great at talking with people who are communists and stuff.

651
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: As long as you like Henry Kissinger and what he's selling,

652
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 1: he'll sell it to anybody. You know, it's so crazy,

653
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: it's wild that like he must have eyes that just

654
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: start spinning and hit, Like you just have to get

655
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 1: close to notice that he's got hypnotic eyes. You're like,

656
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: he isn't so bad now that I'm you know, let's

657
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: think about Vietnam for a second, Right, if you're going

658
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: to war in Vietnam, Gareth, Right, if you decide, Gareth Reynolds,

659
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to war in Vietnam, how long

660
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: do you think it would take you to realize that

661
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: was a bad idea. It would be I mean, I

662
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: Gareth Reynolds, it would be instantaneous, quickly, very quickly. I mean, David,

663
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 1: can I okay, can I just can I ask the question?

664
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 1: Which side am I fighting on? The not Vietnamese side? Okay?

665
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: Then really quick? Yeah, really quick. I feel like you could.

666
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:52,959
Speaker 1: I feel like you could. You could take Vietnam. David

667
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 1: not going to see They're not going to see it coming.

668
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: I would certainly be the guy who they'd be like,

669
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: we broke him. We broken before, We've shouted at him,

670
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: and I'm sorry. I didn't mean to show up with

671
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: pants that were already pissed in. I know I know

672
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: one thing about me, and that's if things got really

673
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: really chaotic and bad that I I kind of thrive

674
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: in that embarkment. Yeah, Dave, you'd be like, Dave, we

675
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: don't have time to eat their brains and be like,

676
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: shut up, I'm figuring out what they know. It's like

677
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 1: Doctor Manhattan ending the Vietnam War. Both sides surrendered to

678
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: Dave in the mid sixties, which is fairly early on

679
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: considering how late the Vietnam War goes. It is clear

680
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 1: to people, especially a lot of people protesting in the

681
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: United States that like ship, this ain't going great, right,

682
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 1: Like it's not hard for people. There are people who

683
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 1: buy into the US propaganda, but like people who are

684
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: actually privy to information on the war are aware that

685
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: it is not going well, Kissinger still decides we should

686
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: escalate things. And I'm gonna quote again from Kissinger's Shadow

687
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: by Greg Grandon. Upon returning from his first visit to

688
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: South Vietnam in late nineteen sixty five, Kissinger threw himself

689
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: often do a campaign to build public support for ongoing intervention.

690
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: In early December, he joined a hundred and eighty nine

691
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: other scholars from Harvard, Yale, and fifteen other New England

692
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: universities in an open letter expressing confidence that Johnson's policies

693
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: would help quote people of South Vietnam determine their own destiny.

694
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 1: A Vietcam victory will spell disasters, said the letter. Then

695
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: later that month, he led a Harvard team against a

696
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,280
Speaker 1: group of Oxford opponents of the war, and a debate

697
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: held in Great Britain and broadcast nationally in the United

698
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,720
Speaker 1: States on CBS. Kissinger passionately defended the bombing of northern Vietnam,

699
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: insisting that it was not a violation of international law.

700
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: He invoked the analogy of World War Two, saying Washington's

701
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 1: actions in Indo China were as righteous and justified as

702
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 1: they were in Nazi Germany. Bob Schroom, who went on

703
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: to become a Democratic political consultant, was on Kissinger's team

704
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 1: and says that when he today watches a recording of

705
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: the debate, he is quote amazed by two things. How

706
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 1: long we how young we look, even Kissinger, and how

707
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 1: wrong we were. So first of you don't feel bad enough.

708
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: I don't know how bad you feel about this. It's

709
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: not enough. Your first reactionly be like, god, we were kids,

710
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 1: were young, we were young. There's like some Vietnam's dude

711
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: next to him thinking about like bombs raining down on

712
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: the jungle. And we had kissing Jerry. Oh my god

713
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 1: is jewls. Yeah, he's only got one jowl at that time.

714
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: That's before he got the eight Our hair looked so stupid?

715
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: Am I right? Am I? Right? Where did your legs go?

716
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: By the way, before Henry kissing your looked like weird science.

717
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: After things go wrong, it's amazing, like and it's it's

718
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: there's a lot in that paragraph both like, of course,

719
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,280
Speaker 1: when the debate starts to build, like should we escalate

720
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 1: this nightmarish war, the first thing, one of the first

721
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 1: things that happens is that a bunch of fucking New

722
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: England universities decided to have a debate about right, that's

723
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 1: the right wrest Let everyone here, let's have the best

724
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: arguments of both sides about whether or not the experience. Yeah, like,

725
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 1: first off, fuck everyone involved in this, even the people

726
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 1: arguing against the war a little bit like just don't

727
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 1: do that's is bad? Yeah, um less so certainly, I

728
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know. Maybe like it made sense

729
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 1: virgins debating which position is the best to fucking yea,

730
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: what the hell? Why is this instead of the debate

731
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 1: like hey, why are we there? Like really why why

732
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: that's we're not we're not debating that debate and it

733
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: is again it's like and you can see just about

734
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 1: how comprehensively wrong these people are that like number one,

735
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: this idea that this will help the people of South

736
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: Vietnam determine their own destimony, which is Vietnamese government was

737
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: a dictatorship the entire time the war was going on.

738
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: It's not any more democratic in any meaningful sense than

739
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: than the Northern Vietnam. And also like a v Cong

740
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 1: victory will spell disasters. Like there's plenty of things to

741
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: criticize the Vietnamese government for, but like broadly on an

742
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 1: international level, it's fine. A country seems seems to be

743
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 1: doing all right, like better than a lot of places.

744
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: It's fine. Yeah, did a pretty good job at COVID,

745
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 1: like you know it did. It didn't seem like a disaster.

746
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: Maybe if we hadn't killed five million people, um, things

747
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: would be even better. It seems like it couldn't hurt um.

748
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: Yeahs Again, they're wrong about everything, Like Kissinger in this period,

749
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: everything that he said, like that's he has, this reputation

750
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: is such an intellectual titan, and he's like so constantly

751
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:43,919
Speaker 1: fucking wrong. But there's always like yeah, it's the same

752
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 1: as today, all of these people that are constantly fucking wrong.

753
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: Just yeah, keep on getting position media and they're always

754
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: fucking wrong. And there's this ship like people will will

755
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: bring up like well, but there's this nuclear arms treaty

756
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 1: he helped make, and there's this like peace deal he

757
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 1: negotiated in the Middle East, and like all of these things, Yeah,

758
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 1: but that was like two percent of the ship that

759
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 1: he did, and it was largely because other people that

760
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: he wanted to stay in good with. We're pushing for

761
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: that kind of ship too. Like Henry Kissinger, whenever he

762
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 1: has expressed an idea that is his legitimate idea is

763
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:22,359
Speaker 1: like really really disastrously wrong. Yeah, amazing, Yeah, nobody cares. Yeah,

764
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: nobody cares. He's gonna get to invest in Thereino still

765
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: supposed to being the one victory, the one victory weekend.

766
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 1: That's why we should pardon her. Yeah. Yeah, look, you

767
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: stole a lot of money, but you made Henry Kissinger

768
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: look gonna release you to come up with another scheme

769
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 1: to take more money from this bag of ship. You

770
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: don't get to make a company anymore. But we're gonna

771
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: have cameras fall leaving you think Frank Show. Yeah, have

772
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 1: you seen Punked? They're talking, but it's just every week Kissinger.

773
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: You gotta put on mustaches and like fake wigs, and

774
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: you just gonna try to find telling me this is

775
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: a way for me to get a longer spine. I mean,

776
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: a little money popcorn has zero calories. What I'm here.

777
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 1: But you know what's awesome about that story is that

778
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: she's a younger female kissinger. Yeah, yeah, how to percent,

779
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: She's like blood kissing everyone. Everyone's super into her, and

780
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 1: she was just saying whatever people wanted to hear, and like, yeah,

781
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 1: it's amazing because there's there's the the good grifters and

782
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: the evil ones. We just finished our four partner on

783
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 1: the Czar and talked about the fact that, like before resputing,

784
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: there was another spiritualist grifter who pretended to talk to

785
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: like ghosts and stuff named Philippe, who like got a

786
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: bunch of money for them, tricked the Czarina into thinking

787
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 1: she was pregnant, and then bounced with a bunch of

788
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: their money. And the last thing he did before he

789
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: left was like, I'm gonna come back in another form

790
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: as another spiritual he should trust whatever I said. Very funny,

791
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: took all the money and ran, and when he died,

792
00:44:57,840 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: it was found out that he had been paying for

793
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 1: the more egages and rentals of like fifty two impoverished families,

794
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: like the perfect guy for like the opposite of kissing ship. Yeah,

795
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: just taking money from the Czar to help pour people out.

796
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 1: What a dude be great if he showed up again, right, yeah. Yeah,

797
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: let's put that guy in front of Kissinger, Let's see

798
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: what he can do. So in private, Kissinger admitted already

799
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: while he is doing all this, while he's a part

800
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: of this big debate, you know, while he's taking the

801
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,359
Speaker 1: side that we should escalate, in private, in his conversations,

802
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: he admits to his friends that Vietnam is an unwinnable

803
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 1: disaster of a war. Oh my fucking god. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

804
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 1: He defended it in public though, because there was at

805
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: least a fifty percent chance the Democrats were going to

806
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: stay in power after the next election, and he he

807
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 1: didn't want to give up on a chance of having

808
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:50,879
Speaker 1: a job. You know, I think it a lot of times,

809
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: you just you do. I guess he's a little different

810
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: because he's such a shape shifter, but you know there,

811
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: I think it's just the way he are. You are, like,

812
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 1: they can't just be that base evil yeah, but he yeah, yeah,

813
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: it's something. It's something I was thinking about climate change,

814
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: is that people can't represence on the fact that there

815
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 1: might be a significant portion of rich people in control

816
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 1: who actually want everybody to die. Yeah yeah, or at

817
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:24,240
Speaker 1: least don't care, because what really matters is like maintaining

818
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 1: their level of relative power, and it's just like, what

819
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,399
Speaker 1: are they going to do? Call themselves out? Yeah, it's cool,

820
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,399
Speaker 1: so obviously, And it's one of those things. I don't

821
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,720
Speaker 1: actually know that he really believed that Vietnam was a disaster,

822
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: because he may have been lying to his friends when

823
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: he said because he wants to keep like he wants

824
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 1: to keep a bridge to the other side open, you know,

825
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 1: like it's impossible to say because he's fucking Henry Kissinger.

826
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: Is it possible there's two Kissingers? Yes, Okay, what if

827
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: there's six? They ever touched Cambodia will be oh, yeah,

828
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: you know what. So the fact that Kissinger in private

829
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, at Nam, what a funk up, and

830
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: in public would be like, let me bin Shapiro about Vietnam,

831
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: that really piste off a lot of his friends, including

832
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: the political scientist Hans morgan Thou. Kissinger head admitted to

833
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: morgan Thou that the war was unwinnable, unwinnable, even while

834
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: he continued to go on in the media and advocate

835
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: expanded saturation bombing. Morgan Thou found this deeply disappointing, but

836
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: Henry was increasingly tailoring his public statements to the ear

837
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 1: of a man who was already a fan of his work,

838
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 1: Richard Millhouse, Nixon, can we get like, yeah, sound effects,

839
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:43,359
Speaker 1: lightning whips across the stream in a screen house, which

840
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,959
Speaker 1: will do a whole Nixon episode one of these days.

841
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,720
Speaker 1: A lot of our Kissinger series will also be about Nixon,

842
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: because you can't unwrap the two men. You know, A yeah,

843
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: they're one of them is Richard Nixon. So by the

844
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: end of nineteen sixty eight, as the presidential race between

845
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: Vice President Hubert Humphrey and former Vice President Richard Nixon

846
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 1: heats up, Kissinger's profile had raised enough that he was

847
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: seen as the front runner for a serious foreign policy

848
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: job in either potential administration. Either yeah, he's got a gig,

849
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:20,240
Speaker 1: no matter what. Maybe it's just he's the raytheon of people.

850
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 1: So as time goes on, though, he increasingly leans towards Nixon,

851
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 1: which surprises his friends, whom he had told, quote, Richard

852
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: Nixon is the most dangerous of all the men running

853
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: to have his president. But I want him to give

854
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 1: me a gig. I need jobs. So he was heartbroken

855
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: when his friend Rockefeller lost to Nixon, and he commented,

856
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 1: Now the Republican Party is a disaster, and Nixon is

857
00:48:54,360 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: not fit to be president. Oh my god, and over

858
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: and oh this is what they said about this. Okay, yeah,

859
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: it's always the same calculus. This is true. But Kissinger

860
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: didn't let his complete contempt for Nixon stop him from

861
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 1: trying to get a job with the man. To explain why,

862
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 1: here's the New Yorker. It took Kissinger's close contemporary, the

863
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: political theorist Sheldon Wolan, another son of Jewish emigres who

864
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: fought in the War and studied at Harvard with William

865
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 1: Yandel Elliott, to fully dissect Kissinger's careerist instincts. On the surface,

866
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 1: Woland r observed Kissinger would have appeared a mismatch for

867
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: the anti elitist Nixon, but the pairing was perfect. Nixon

868
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: needed someone who could elevate his opportunism to a higher

869
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 1: plane of purpose and make him feel like a great

870
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 1: figure in the drama of history. As Wolan wrote, what

871
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 1: could have been more comforting to that barn and inarticulate

872
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 1: soul than to hear the authoritative voice of doctor Kissinger,

873
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: who spoke so often and knowingly about the meaning of history.

874
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:59,720
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just an empty sack and an evil sack,

875
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 1: the evil sacs, Like I can feel you yelled. Somebody's

876
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 1: trying to throw me off. Somebody's gonna load me with something.

877
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: He's not gonna do it. Put all that black piled on.

878
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 1: Oh boy, Gareth, he doesn't call him Hank, but we'll

879
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: get to that later. It's a lot worse than that, Garrett. Alright,

880
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: So in nineteen sixty eight, the Johnson administration was carrying

881
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 1: out an extensive series of negotiations between South and North

882
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: Vietnam and an attempt to secure an into the war.

883
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 1: Lb J wants credit for his legacy, right, I'm not

884
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 1: going to give LBJ credit for like caring about human

885
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: death and suffering, because he's also a monster. Not trying

886
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,919
Speaker 1: to make him seem good by comparison, But he sees

887
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 1: ending the war both as a way to like, I

888
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 1: want to go out on a good note, and also

889
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 1: this is gonna if he could, if he could even

890
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 1: secure a significance like ceasefire, that would help Humphrey get reelected. Right,

891
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 1: because nobody's in the US is very pro the Vietnam War.

892
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 1: Uh within the majority of most voters are very anti it. So,

893
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: so that's kind of the play that that LBJ is making.

894
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 1: He wants to in the war in order to help

895
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: Humphrey win. Over the course of the election year, his

896
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: Secretary of State, National Security Advisor, and his Secretary of Defense,

897
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 1: Clark Gifford, became aware that something was amiss. Some of

898
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 1: the moves that the South Vietnamese government made which threatened

899
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 1: the negotiations seemed bizarre. They would like take these wild

900
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 1: changes where it's like, suddenly South Vietnam is not willing

901
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 1: to negotiate, Like what the funk? We had like worked

902
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 1: all this out. Why are you guys pulling out at

903
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: the last minute with Vietnam? Noam's willing to come to

904
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: the table. In the trial of Henry Kissinger, Christopher Hitchens writes,

905
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:44,839
Speaker 1: quote from his seat in the Pentagon, Clifford, who's again

906
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 1: the Secretary of Defense, had actually been able to read

907
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,800
Speaker 1: the intelligence transcripts that picked up and recorded what he

908
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: terms a secret personal channel between President Thu and Saigon.

909
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: In the Nixon campaign, the chief interlocutor at the American

910
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 1: end was John Mitchell, then Nixon's Camp Haine manager and

911
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: subsequently Attorney General. He was actively assisted by Madame Anna Chanal,

912
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 1: known to all as the Dragon Lady, A fierce veteran

913
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: of the Taiwan Lobby and all purpose right wing and triguer,

914
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 1: she was a social and political force in the Washington

915
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 1: of her day. So lbj's administration, this is suspicious as fuck.

916
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: Let's bug the Nixon campaign, right, which is not illegal obviously,

917
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 1: like you have it is an act of fucking treason

918
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 1: to try an extend a war by sabotage negotiations. This

919
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 1: is one of the very few cases we're like, yeah,

920
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 1: you should wire tap those people, you should tap you

921
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,800
Speaker 1: should tap the funk out of those phones. Um. But

922
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 1: it's also this is they don't want this to get

923
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 1: lb J doesn't want this ship to get out at all. Um.

924
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 1: This would be number one hanging crime. You get executed

925
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 1: for doing this kind of ship like on paper at least, right, um.

926
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 1: And So lbj's administration, while they're wire tapping Nixon and

927
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 1: getting evidence about like this would increasingly becomes clear as

928
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:57,320
Speaker 1: a conspiracy, keeps fucking quiet about it because they're worried

929
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,320
Speaker 1: that revealing this would create a crisis of con fidence

930
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 1: in the American government. Fucking fucking liberals. Liberals, this is

931
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: how how many fucking times bustole two elections? This is

932
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: what they did. This is what they fucking did. It's

933
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: really it really is. I mean it's just it's I

934
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 1: mean the eye that is so fucking crazy to put

935
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 1: the clubhouse, Yeah, I mean above it. It is. It

936
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 1: is like the one time wherefore president had had his

937
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 1: political opponents hanged, it would be like, yeah, that's what

938
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 1: you should have done, and you have to that one

939
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: session of hangings really would have gone a long way

940
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 1: with this country would be in so much a better

941
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 1: position if they'd hung Nixon and several other people were

942
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: about to talk about it would also give a Nixon

943
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 1: good posture. Finally, yeah, finally I knew about that Nixon

944
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:57,879
Speaker 1: had done. I did not know that that they knew.

945
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 1: I didn't know they knew at the time. Like that

946
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 1: fucking insane the liberal mind. I always think about this

947
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 1: story about when the junta took over in Chile before

948
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 1: Pinochet got into power, and they asked all the they said,

949
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 1: we want to have interviews with people, and the liberals

950
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 1: so believed in government that they went and lined up

951
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 1: for the secret police interviews because they're like well, this

952
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 1: is what we do. And they're like, no, they're taking

953
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: your names down to possibly kill you. But they lined

954
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 1: up because they're like, well, this is we don't want

955
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 1: to mess up the system, like we're supposed to get

956
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 1: interviewed by the government, like it's a hunta like it

957
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 1: just the mindset of just this is how our constitution works,

958
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: and this is what we're supposed to do. And you're like, no,

959
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:52,800
Speaker 1: it's literally not working. The thing isn't working. This is

960
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 1: a great This is one of the best examples ever

961
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: of yet. And this is the germ of truth in

962
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 1: Kissinger's whole ideology that conflict is that if you are

963
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 1: in a conflict with someone who was willing to throw

964
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:06,800
Speaker 1: down and you aren't, they're going to win, right, Like

965
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 1: that is a truth of history, right, It's a truth

966
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: of fighting fascists. Right. It's not enough to say, like

967
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 1: punching them isn't the entirety of it. But if you're

968
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: not willing to throw down, they will win, right um.

969
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 1: And that is a thing that has often taken exactly

970
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 1: the wrong way at the geopolitical level. But like you

971
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 1: see in this that like lb J was not willing

972
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: to throw down and Nixon was, and everything we're going

973
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:30,800
Speaker 1: to talk about in the rest of this series happens

974
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 1: as a result. And it's like lb J loved throwing down.

975
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 1: But yes, it's amazing that he does. I think that's

976
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 1: the craziest thing is that, Like that was the fucking

977
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 1: big dick. I'm gonna take a ship and you're gonna

978
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 1: listen to me guy, like he gave no fox and

979
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,880
Speaker 1: threw down with everybody. You know what I think it is, Dave.

980
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 1: I think for all of his many, many, many flaws

981
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 1: and evil acts committed, I think lb J believed in

982
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:58,320
Speaker 1: things and Nixon and kissing you down. He wouldn't throw down,

983
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:05,359
Speaker 1: but he would throw two ads. Yeah I would, because

984
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 1: you know, lb J was famous for whipping his dick,

985
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 1: which he called jumbo, out at all times. He wants

986
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 1: piste on a Secret Service agent at a party because

987
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 1: he couldn't get to the bathroom easily enough. Yeah, all

988
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,399
Speaker 1: of our sponsors are the same, and that their dicks

989
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 1: are called jumbo and they do piss on the Secret Service.

990
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 1: Every one of our sponsors pisses on the Secret Service.

991
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: That's a promise. So we're back, ah boy, good times.

992
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 1: So South Vietnam pulls out of the negotiations, right. I

993
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 1: think they're happening in Paris, uh, And I'm being I

994
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 1: haven't really gotten into the tail about what happened up

995
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:48,880
Speaker 1: to this point because those details are very obscure to

996
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: the American people. What is publicly possible, like known, is

997
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 1: that North Vietnam and South Vietnam are supposed to come

998
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 1: to the table, have this big negotiation to try to

999
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 1: come to like some way in which the war can

1000
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 1: come to an end, and South Vietnam, after a bunch

1001
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 1: of like throwing a bunch of like wrenches in the process,

1002
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: finally just backs out entirely, right, and so the negotiations

1003
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,839
Speaker 1: don't happen, and the war continues. That's what everybody sees,

1004
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 1: you know, if you're just like a dude paying attention

1005
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 1: on the news, that's what you're aware of happening here.

1006
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 1: Um lb j's administration knows something sketchy is going on

1007
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 1: between Nixon and the South Vietnamese government, but even for them,

1008
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 1: they don't know precisely what happened. Here's what happened. As

1009
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 1: part of the negotiations, lb J offered the North Vietnamese

1010
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: a bombing halt. Now you can see why this is

1011
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 1: very enticing for Hanoi, right, because being bombed is not pleasant,

1012
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 1: and the US was doing a lot of it. Um,

1013
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 1: so this is like what lb J is like, Hey,

1014
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 1: I will fucking stop bombing Vietnam if you guys will

1015
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 1: come to the table and talk about stuff. And the

1016
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 1: North Vietnamese government not being made entirely of soulless cockroaches

1017
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: is like, well, okay, Like that's a pretty good offer. Actually,

1018
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 1: we were bombings. Are we actually chopped John McCain. Yeah,

1019
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 1: we did drop John McCain, and you guys might have

1020
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 1: caught him. You can keep him for a while. Um,

1021
00:57:57,520 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: he'll come back into the picture. It'll be a big problem.

1022
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 1: He'll also, weirdly enough, be the least objectionable Republican elected

1023
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 1: leader for a long time. So that's our future hero. Yeah.

1024
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 1: He and Jesse the Body Venschera will be the only

1025
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 1: conservative voices against torture. So heads up. It is amazing

1026
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 1: watching that old clip of Jesse Ventura on the view

1027
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 1: being the most reasonable American in fucking early two thousands

1028
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: next to Gilbert Godfried at least. Um, it's actually so yeah,

1029
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 1: this is very enticing offer for Hannoy that the bombing cessation,

1030
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 1: and it's good enough if like, if you won't bom

1031
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 1: us anymore, Yeah, maybe we can concede on some stuff

1032
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 1: if you're not murdering people in mass like, yeah, of

1033
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 1: course we'll negotiate with that. Nixon cannot let this happen.

1034
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 1: This would be a disaster. But Vietnam not getting bombed,

1035
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 1: he sees, is like the worst case scenario, even though

1036
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 1: he is campaigning on ending the war. By the way,

1037
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 1: that's promise, I'm going to get us out of there.

1038
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 1: But yeah, on my watch, that happens before what am

1039
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 1: I campaigning on? So Nixon uses his back channel to

1040
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 1: the South Vietnamese government to get them to torpedo their

1041
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 1: end of the negotiations because the government of South Vietnam

1042
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 1: is frightened obviously that the US is going to stop

1043
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 1: bombing North Vietnam. Um, So if you're following along, something

1044
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 1: should be obvious at this point. Since the Johnson administration

1045
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 1: was negotiating secretly with North Vietnam, there should have been

1046
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 1: no way for the government and Saigon to know that

1047
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 1: lb J had proposed a bombing halt. But obviously Saigon knew,

1048
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: which means there was a secret informant within the Johnson

1049
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 1: administration passing information to the Nixon administration and sharing a

1050
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 1: lot of top secret data with Saigon. Um. So the

1051
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 1: big question is who possibly be so deep into both camps?

1052
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:55,040
Speaker 1: But he could feed information the forest. Oh my god,

1053
00:59:55,520 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 1: that's right, baby, absolutely should be executed for treason, my god. Slowly, yeah,

1054
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:10,480
Speaker 1: slowly executed. Yeah, it should be that incompetent dude who

1055
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 1: hung the Nazis at Nuremberg and like kept sucking up

1056
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 1: and making it worse. Bring that dude back, all right?

1057
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 1: Can I just let me try one more time before

1058
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:19,720
Speaker 1: you guys get out. We should have frozen that motherfucker

1059
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 1: and carbonite to break out when the nation needed him. Yeah,

1060
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 1: that's amazing. How you guys wake ing me up to

1061
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 1: kill me? No, we actually we're drunk, and do another

1062
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 1: hang huge fans, We've got you a handle of gin

1063
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 1: here and this is a grey Kissinger. Shut off. Just

1064
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 1: do whatever. You just kill him as fast as you can.

1065
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:45,880
Speaker 1: That's the all they know. But I took a lot

1066
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 1: of notes from him back in the day. He's great,

1067
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 1: he's great. Just kill him. I don't think he could

1068
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 1: die though I will say I don't think that guy

1069
01:00:55,040 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 1: could read so. Obviously, Kissinger is the back channel who

1070
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 1: was spreading this information. Now when his own memoirs, Nixon

1071
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 1: later admitted to hearing about the proposed bombing halt through

1072
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:13,680
Speaker 1: what he termed as a highly unusual channel, Christopher Hitchins continues,

1073
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 1: it was more unusual even that he than he acknowledged.

1074
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 1: Kissinger had until then been a devoted partisan of Nelson Rockefeller,

1075
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 1: the matchlessly wealthy prince of liberal Republicanism. His contempt for

1076
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 1: the person and policies of Richard Nixon was undisguised. Indeed,

1077
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 1: President Johnson's Paris negotiators, led by Avril Harriman, considered Kissinger

1078
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 1: to be almost one of themselves. He had made himself

1079
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:38,560
Speaker 1: helpful as Rockefeller's cheap foreign policy adviser by supplying French

1080
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 1: intermediaries with their own contacts in Hanoi. Henry was the

1081
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 1: only person outside of the government that we were authorized

1082
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 1: to discuss the negotiations with, says Richard Holbrook. We trusted him.

1083
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 1: It is not stretching the truth to say that Nick

1084
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 1: the Nixon campaign had a secret source within the US

1085
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 1: negotiating team. So the likelihood of a bombing halt, wrote,

1086
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 1: Nixon came as no real surprise to me. He added,

1087
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 1: I told Haldeman that Mitchell she stay continuous liaison with Kissinger,

1088
01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 1: and that we should honor his desire to keep his

1089
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 1: role completely confidential. This is all on the open now. Yeah.

1090
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 1: He also, I mean Nixon really just never shut the

1091
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:13,240
Speaker 1: funk up. I mean he should didn't. He really just

1092
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 1: he was like the drunk guy at a party who

1093
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 1: would just sort of tell you whatever. Like honestly, he's

1094
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,000
Speaker 1: the guy Donald Trump might put a hand and be like,

1095
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 1: hey man, you're saying you say, it's some stuff that

1096
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 1: you probably shouldn't right now. I think you might not.

1097
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 1: I think you might regret this sticks. But I'm just

1098
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 1: saying a lot of stuff you probably shouldn't. And I'm

1099
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: on Twitter. Yeah that's so. That is just so crazy

1100
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 1: and just says it all, you know, and this is

1101
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 1: and it's gotten worse. I mean, it's just fucking bonkers. Now.

1102
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:45,640
Speaker 1: The bombing halt was planned for October twenty three, but

1103
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:48,000
Speaker 1: thanks to Kissinger, the Nixon campaign was able to lobby

1104
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:51,120
Speaker 1: South Vietnam to increase their demands. Suddenly, at the bargaining table,

1105
01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 1: which wrecked attempted agreements being made with North Vietnam. This,

1106
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 1: you know, there's a process. This happens back and forth

1107
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 1: until the bombing halt is completely scuttled and peace negotiations

1108
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 1: fall apart. Since all this was happening behind closed doors,

1109
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:05,080
Speaker 1: Humphrey never got to present the possibility of a bombing

1110
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 1: halt to the American people. Nixon avoided having to take

1111
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:10,400
Speaker 1: into stance of any kind on the issue because obviously,

1112
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:12,320
Speaker 1: as the peace candidate, he couldn't say you shouldn't do

1113
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 1: it right. He didn't even want it to come up

1114
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 1: at all. Um. The Johnson administration made one final attempt

1115
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 1: to push through a bombing halt at the end of October,

1116
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 1: but the South Vietnamese government, warned by Kissinger via Nixon,

1117
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 1: preempted this with a surprise boycott of the peace talks. Now,

1118
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 1: while all this is happening, Kissinger is also advising the

1119
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:33,920
Speaker 1: Humphrey campaign, and it's so respected there that he was

1120
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 1: considered a shoe in for a senior job if they'd

1121
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 1: managed to win. There's three of them. Democrats are so

1122
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:44,640
Speaker 1: fucking stupid. I know there's three of them. There's three Kissingers,

1123
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 1: just free walking around. I got my buddy Henry's I'm

1124
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:51,880
Speaker 1: gonna give him a good old job. That's our party

1125
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 1: you're talking about, Mr. And then I can never get

1126
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 1: over the fact that Hilary walked around with him during

1127
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:03,640
Speaker 1: the campaign. It's really walking to be fair day. He

1128
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:07,080
Speaker 1: fucking is. He's like one of those episodes of Frasier

1129
01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:08,960
Speaker 1: where he's dating two women at the same time and

1130
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:13,919
Speaker 1: trying to keep it secret. That's the same rest Jack Trapper. Yeah,

1131
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 1: it's very funny, except for all of the millions and millions.

1132
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 1: Do you have the numbers on where the deaths were

1133
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:30,400
Speaker 1: at in Vietnam where they ended up? Like, yeah, I'll

1134
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 1: get you that in a minute. Why did I ask? Yeah.

1135
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:37,200
Speaker 1: Nixon by also like grows in convinced of Kissinger's value

1136
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:39,000
Speaker 1: during this period of time too, and he becomes a

1137
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 1: shoe in for a senior job there. He was particularly

1138
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 1: impressed by the school with which Kissinger protected his identity

1139
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 1: as the leaker from the Humphrey campaign. Nixon later wrote,

1140
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:50,520
Speaker 1: one factor that had most convinced me of Kissinger's credibility

1141
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 1: was the length to which he went to protect his secrecy.

1142
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:57,560
Speaker 1: What terrible, I mean, that's just not a good personality train.

1143
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 1: It's really not. It's actually not, but doubt is. But

1144
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:04,440
Speaker 1: not this guy. This guy is the best double agent.

1145
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 1: He's so fucking great. And this guy's an unbelievable ship

1146
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:15,360
Speaker 1: bag liar. Yeah, I mean, honestly, it makes sense that

1147
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:18,080
Speaker 1: like Nixon would be super ended. All. Yeah, wow, this

1148
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:21,200
Speaker 1: guy's a real piece of ship. I'm jick Nixon. This

1149
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 1: this guy can lie to you. Let me tell you

1150
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:36,920
Speaker 1: as a liar. Oh fuck, it's it's fucking amazing. It's bad. Um.

1151
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 1: Clark Clifford, who would later was again the Secretary Defense

1152
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 1: of the time, would later blame the fact that the

1153
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:43,920
Speaker 1: war did not end in nineteen sixty eight and the

1154
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:46,320
Speaker 1: loss of the Humphrey campaign in that election on the

1155
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:50,000
Speaker 1: schoolduggery of the Nixon campaign, which was orchestrated in part

1156
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:53,439
Speaker 1: by Henry Kissinger. Quote. The activities of the Nixon team

1157
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:56,360
Speaker 1: went far beyond the bounds of justifiable political combat. It

1158
01:05:56,440 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 1: constituted direct interference in the activities of the executive branch

1159
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:01,920
Speaker 1: in the response abilities of the chief executive, the only

1160
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 1: people with authority to get to negotiate on behalf of

1161
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 1: the nation. The activities of the Niction campaign constituted a gross,

1162
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:10,600
Speaker 1: even potentially illegal interference in the security affairs of the

1163
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 1: nation by private individuals, which is the polite political wonk

1164
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:17,920
Speaker 1: way of saying it. In the book, Kissinger's shadow, Greg Grandon,

1165
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:21,120
Speaker 1: is even more pointed the fact that Kissinger participated in

1166
01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:24,120
Speaker 1: an intrigue that extended the war for five pointless years

1167
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:26,880
Speaker 1: seven if you count the fighting between the nineteen seventy

1168
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 1: three Paris Piece Accords in the nineteen seventy five Fall

1169
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:33,520
Speaker 1: of Saigon is undeniable. Adding to the evidence is Kissinger himself.

1170
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:36,760
Speaker 1: He's been caught on tape twice on recordings recently released

1171
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:41,400
Speaker 1: admitting he passed on useful information to Nixon. Jesus Christ,

1172
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:46,240
Speaker 1: my god. It's like killing him isn't enough. He should

1173
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 1: be gibbited. I said, so it would. We need to

1174
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 1: bring back gibbeting and just hang that motherfucker somewhere in

1175
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 1: a in a nice cage box, like, yeah, leave him

1176
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:56,840
Speaker 1: out there, leave him out, Let people pelt him with stuffy.

1177
01:06:57,440 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 1: Let's kill him by drawing potatoes at it, right, because

1178
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 1: he's not that strong anymore and you wanted to last

1179
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 1: a whit? Yeah, yeah, Um, So we'll talk a bit

1180
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:11,800
Speaker 1: later about how we got caught on tape and why

1181
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:14,560
Speaker 1: we know about all of this, because that's a fun story, guys,

1182
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:17,960
Speaker 1: and involves a different series of crimes. But Grandon makes

1183
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:21,680
Speaker 1: another point that's worth acknowledging here. Well, Kissinger definitely had

1184
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:24,280
Speaker 1: inside information from the Johnson campaign, which he passed on.

1185
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 1: He also didn't have as much information as he pretended

1186
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 1: to know when he talked to the Nixon campaign. Quote.

1187
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:34,280
Speaker 1: Even with access to Johnson's negotiating instructions, he couldn't have

1188
01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:36,600
Speaker 1: had exact information about the decisions being made at the

1189
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:38,720
Speaker 1: White House. He had to have been winging it, at

1190
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 1: least to some degree, guessing at what others knew, imagining

1191
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:44,160
Speaker 1: what others would do with that, guests playing the angle,

1192
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:47,200
Speaker 1: sussing out the chance, well, giving the appearance of composure

1193
01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:55,320
Speaker 1: and certainty, he was right winging it. Yeah, an absolute

1194
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 1: fucking psychopath. Like that's the kind of ship. Like he said,

1195
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:01,800
Speaker 1: if you're dating to women, you're trying to figure it

1196
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:05,080
Speaker 1: out and get through some stinky situation. But he's doing

1197
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:10,959
Speaker 1: this with fucking Vietnam and to presidential campaigns. I don't craziness.

1198
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:17,960
Speaker 1: The absolute lack of a soul is dounding he is

1199
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:23,519
Speaker 1: pure blackness inside. Yeah, Dave, let me push back for

1200
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:33,320
Speaker 1: a second. God, wow, yeah, you can't. I mean, it's

1201
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:36,519
Speaker 1: it's it's hard to even speak to it because it's

1202
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:40,960
Speaker 1: like to look, I'll kill five people for a job,

1203
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:47,120
Speaker 1: but at some point you have that's regular. Yeah, but

1204
01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:51,000
Speaker 1: but to to let I mean, to just I don't know,

1205
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 1: it's he is he killed, he killed? I mean, how

1206
01:08:55,080 --> 01:08:59,479
Speaker 1: many Vietnamese died after that? Like so many? But we're

1207
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 1: talking to uh, you know, wasn't like a million died

1208
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 1: in the whole wars more than no, I mean it

1209
01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:07,280
Speaker 1: is because you also have to include the people who

1210
01:09:07,360 --> 01:09:12,200
Speaker 1: died in um, Cambodia and and in in Vietnam. We're

1211
01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:14,040
Speaker 1: we're gonna get into more of this an episode three,

1212
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:19,360
Speaker 1: but conservatively an additional couple of million deaths as a

1213
01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:22,280
Speaker 1: result of this, in addition to an additional twenty thousand

1214
01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:24,800
Speaker 1: US dead. Um, it's kind of hard the death toll

1215
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:27,400
Speaker 1: to get precisely like a couple million, like in the

1216
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:32,160
Speaker 1: millions aditional dead because to this day, by the way,

1217
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:37,960
Speaker 1: because he was just gonna say because he wanted a job,

1218
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:42,439
Speaker 1: this was he wanted a gig. He's essentially lying in

1219
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:44,840
Speaker 1: a job in a view like you would if you

1220
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:48,439
Speaker 1: were had no fast food experience and where del Taco

1221
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 1: except millions of people are dying. Yeah, it's awesome. Holy

1222
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:59,479
Speaker 1: the crazy such a bad person, the crazy that that's

1223
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:02,880
Speaker 1: the thing you done here is you've you've you've humanized

1224
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:08,760
Speaker 1: the situation for me because, like, I can understand that

1225
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:11,240
Speaker 1: there's evil people out there and they do stuff like

1226
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 1: they want to bomb Camp Cambodio, they want to do

1227
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:17,160
Speaker 1: this other stuff. But when you take it to a

1228
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:20,639
Speaker 1: level where it's a guy winging it in a meeting,

1229
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:23,800
Speaker 1: it takes on a whole different flavor of evil. That

1230
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:26,240
Speaker 1: is something because now that's something we can all understand.

1231
01:10:26,280 --> 01:10:28,360
Speaker 1: We've all been a situation where like ah, yeah, this

1232
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:31,600
Speaker 1: guy did a thing, and then I did a and

1233
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:34,400
Speaker 1: you're just trying to get through a situation we've all

1234
01:10:34,439 --> 01:10:37,800
Speaker 1: experienced that none of us have experienced given the green

1235
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 1: light to you know, dropping bombs and killing people. But

1236
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:45,400
Speaker 1: that I get and I feel in my bones of like, well,

1237
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:47,439
Speaker 1: holy sh it, but you're doing that with millions of

1238
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:49,600
Speaker 1: people's lives on the line. It is. It is this

1239
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:52,040
Speaker 1: thing where the idea I had always had before I

1240
01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:53,680
Speaker 1: really got into with that, Like, well he did you know,

1241
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:55,400
Speaker 1: he was involved in all of these horrible things that

1242
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:57,439
Speaker 1: I knew he was involved in, but like I assumed

1243
01:10:57,479 --> 01:10:59,759
Speaker 1: it was from a wonky perspective of like he believed

1244
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:02,400
Speaker 1: wrongly in the need to fight these wars and that

1245
01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:05,000
Speaker 1: anything was justified, and so he did these horrible things

1246
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:07,280
Speaker 1: because he believed we were in this like civilizational struggle

1247
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:08,960
Speaker 1: in certain things were necessary in that. And like he

1248
01:11:09,040 --> 01:11:11,599
Speaker 1: had all of these different kind of very complex moral

1249
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:13,880
Speaker 1: beliefs that he wrote dozens of books about explaining why

1250
01:11:13,960 --> 01:11:15,320
Speaker 1: he did the things. At the end of the day,

1251
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:19,160
Speaker 1: no motherfucker wanted a gig. Yeah, And by the way,

1252
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:21,960
Speaker 1: it's not like he would have been out of politics,

1253
01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:25,280
Speaker 1: like not even in his downtime. He was like, you know,

1254
01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:28,080
Speaker 1: he was gigging. Like it's just like he would have

1255
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:33,360
Speaker 1: been patiently waiting for another administration, working whatever, like you know,

1256
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:36,960
Speaker 1: you know, he didn't don't want to work. He didn't

1257
01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:38,519
Speaker 1: want to work at Uncle Chuckle Fox. He wanted to

1258
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:40,760
Speaker 1: gig at Charlie Goodnights, Like he doesn't want to work

1259
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:45,360
Speaker 1: at the Premier Club. He literally like did the like

1260
01:11:45,439 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 1: that's the thing. He didn't just do this for a job.

1261
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:48,880
Speaker 1: He did this for like one of the two jobs

1262
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:51,920
Speaker 1: and the one he kind of didn't want as much. Yeah,

1263
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:58,679
Speaker 1: fucking conscionable. Yeah, it's really hard to like, it is hard,

1264
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:01,320
Speaker 1: and like it's at it's easier to understand now what

1265
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:03,760
Speaker 1: he did. It's hard to like judge him adequately in

1266
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:06,880
Speaker 1: mortal terms that are even like comprehensible because it's so

1267
01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:10,240
Speaker 1: much out it's hard to process. It really is one

1268
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:11,920
Speaker 1: of those like say what you will about the tenants

1269
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 1: of nihilism, dude. At least it's an ethos moments where

1270
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:16,920
Speaker 1: it's like I'm thinking about like people like fucking Saddam

1271
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:19,040
Speaker 1: or whatever, where it's like, yeah, that was a piece

1272
01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:22,639
Speaker 1: of ship. There were definitely some things he believed though,

1273
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:27,080
Speaker 1: like like there's pieces of ship out like sucking out there,

1274
01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:31,840
Speaker 1: who like there are things they believe, and Kissinger just

1275
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 1: believes he should be close to power. Yeah yeah, he's

1276
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:38,599
Speaker 1: like all doctrine was Kissinger. He's like, I'm really smart.

1277
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:41,120
Speaker 1: I should be in the top game, and yeah, I

1278
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 1: just want to be there. It's awesome. Yeah, Like I

1279
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:50,320
Speaker 1: like how he thinks his childhood didn't funk with him. Yeah, yeah,

1280
01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:53,320
Speaker 1: you don't be even better if he if all this

1281
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:56,320
Speaker 1: was happening and it was just because like he's like,

1282
01:12:56,479 --> 01:12:58,120
Speaker 1: I know, I can get so many more chicks if

1283
01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:00,800
Speaker 1: I'm in the White House, because that was the whole

1284
01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:02,240
Speaker 1: reason for it. He's just like, I just want to

1285
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:06,280
Speaker 1: get laid. It is not a non factor. Wait is

1286
01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:08,639
Speaker 1: he Is he married right now? Or is he single?

1287
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:13,479
Speaker 1: Who knows? He's still think he gets married at some point.

1288
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:15,560
Speaker 1: But he's also like, you know, well, I don't know.

1289
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:17,720
Speaker 1: Actually he's kind of like a bachelor dude. We'll talk

1290
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:20,840
Speaker 1: about that later. I'm still working on those episodes. Um,

1291
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:23,599
Speaker 1: because there's a whole thing to be said about Kissinger

1292
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:27,920
Speaker 1: and women in sex appeal. Um, he gets he was married.

1293
01:13:28,320 --> 01:13:30,479
Speaker 1: He definitely was married at points, but he's also like

1294
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:33,800
Speaker 1: kind of a playboy. Um. I'm gonna go back in

1295
01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:35,800
Speaker 1: time a little bit and talk about some of that later.

1296
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:39,160
Speaker 1: He was married, his first his first marriage was nineteen

1297
01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:42,519
Speaker 1: forty nine to nineteen sixty four, So I don't think

1298
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:45,519
Speaker 1: he's and then he's not remarried again until seventy four.

1299
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:49,519
Speaker 1: Sounds right. He's married in this little hall. I wonder

1300
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:55,919
Speaker 1: why she left him. Yeah, he's the only guy who

1301
01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:59,080
Speaker 1: comes black I haven't written the episode yet, but I

1302
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:01,759
Speaker 1: have several page is that people talking about Henry Kissinger's

1303
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:05,160
Speaker 1: sex appeal on the news that are real real black

1304
01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:14,479
Speaker 1: pilling is the kids say not good. So Nixon wins

1305
01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:17,400
Speaker 1: the sixty eight election. Obviously, he gets inaugurated in nineteen

1306
01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:21,240
Speaker 1: sixty nine. The Vietnam War continues on for half a decade.

1307
01:14:21,479 --> 01:14:25,400
Speaker 1: Ish uh. This was an almost incalculable humanitarian tragedy as

1308
01:14:25,400 --> 01:14:27,800
Speaker 1: well as disastrous for the future stability and cohesion of

1309
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:29,680
Speaker 1: the United States. But it was dope as hell for

1310
01:14:29,720 --> 01:14:32,880
Speaker 1: Henry Kissinger, who was appointed. Nixon like to put out

1311
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:35,280
Speaker 1: there that my uncle went to Vietnam and it totally

1312
01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:36,719
Speaker 1: you know, he had to kill a lot of people

1313
01:14:36,760 --> 01:14:39,280
Speaker 1: and then totally run his life and he watched and stuff.

1314
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:43,160
Speaker 1: So thank you Richard Nixon, Thank you Richard Nixon. Everybody

1315
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:46,080
Speaker 1: who went to Vietnam after sixty eight saya. Thank you

1316
01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:50,120
Speaker 1: to Richard for Nixon and Kissinger for um. You know,

1317
01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:52,880
Speaker 1: all of the trauma and the trauma that in some

1318
01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:55,920
Speaker 1: cases some of you passed on to your family members, um,

1319
01:14:56,680 --> 01:14:59,160
Speaker 1: and the trauma that has been passed on societally based

1320
01:14:59,240 --> 01:15:01,599
Speaker 1: on our attitudes words war because of how Vietnam went

1321
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:03,519
Speaker 1: and the ways in which some people were always looking

1322
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:05,240
Speaker 1: for a rematch, and it got us into other you know,

1323
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:09,960
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Good stuff.

1324
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:13,280
Speaker 1: Imagine if like that had been the end of Vietnam,

1325
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:16,640
Speaker 1: that like there was actually a president realized, you know,

1326
01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:18,760
Speaker 1: the foolishness of a conflict, and we went to the

1327
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:22,800
Speaker 1: table and like negotiations were made. And I don't think

1328
01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:26,960
Speaker 1: I don't think the first Iraq war happens, the Panama

1329
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:29,479
Speaker 1: doesn't happen. You would think that for how long Vietnam

1330
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:32,320
Speaker 1: dragged on, that that would have actually been a lesson

1331
01:15:32,479 --> 01:15:40,000
Speaker 1: to not go into conflicts, you aimless conflict. But I

1332
01:15:40,040 --> 01:15:42,760
Speaker 1: guess the problem is we're thinking there's people should learn

1333
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:46,640
Speaker 1: lessons countries. Well, that war is in any way like

1334
01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:49,960
Speaker 1: a moral decision or like actually comes from a place

1335
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:55,439
Speaker 1: of actual you know, uh, savior mentality, anything like that. Yeah,

1336
01:15:56,000 --> 01:16:00,559
Speaker 1: it's good stuff. Getting disappointment is national secure. The advisor

1337
01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:04,479
Speaker 1: required a lot more politicking from Kissinger, including spreading rumors

1338
01:16:04,520 --> 01:16:08,000
Speaker 1: to Nixon before his inauguration that Johnson planned either deposed

1339
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:10,759
Speaker 1: or killed the president of South Vietnam before he left office.

1340
01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:14,679
Speaker 1: Kissinger pushed this rumor to the President elect via regular

1341
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:19,519
Speaker 1: Bastards pod side character and Rhodesia enthusiast enthusiast William F. Buckley,

1342
01:16:20,400 --> 01:16:28,759
Speaker 1: Buckley's middleman delight to Nixon translator. Yeah, William F. Buckley,

1343
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:33,439
Speaker 1: whose son went on to write honestly a pretty fun book. Um.

1344
01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:38,000
Speaker 1: But we don't need to think too much about that. Um.

1345
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:42,160
Speaker 1: Great Aaron eck Art performance in the movie. So Nixon

1346
01:16:42,240 --> 01:16:45,599
Speaker 1: appreciated Kissinger's hutzpat and connections enough that when he put

1347
01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:47,960
Speaker 1: him at the head of the National Security Council, he

1348
01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:50,760
Speaker 1: ordered the professor to reorganize it in order to take

1349
01:16:50,840 --> 01:16:54,360
Speaker 1: foreign policy control away from the State in defense departments.

1350
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:57,479
Speaker 1: This means that Nixon gave Kissinger it was very close

1351
01:16:57,520 --> 01:16:59,920
Speaker 1: to a blank check to take total control of US

1352
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:03,600
Speaker 1: foreign policy. Obviously, Nixon wanted this because he was a

1353
01:17:03,640 --> 01:17:06,080
Speaker 1: paranoid control freak. He did not win any kind of

1354
01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:08,519
Speaker 1: separation of powers. He certainly did not want to have

1355
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:11,080
Speaker 1: a Secretary of State who could do things that Nixon

1356
01:17:11,200 --> 01:17:14,519
Speaker 1: might not be explicitly ordering. But the result of this

1357
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:17,080
Speaker 1: was that Kissinger found himself in a position where he

1358
01:17:17,160 --> 01:17:20,960
Speaker 1: could exercise near absolute power in foreign policy as long

1359
01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:25,880
Speaker 1: as the President kept liking him. Justice Kissinger had little

1360
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:29,360
Speaker 1: love for Nixon. Our buddy Dick Millhouse was not particularly

1361
01:17:29,400 --> 01:17:31,200
Speaker 1: warm to his new right hand man. Now you had

1362
01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:34,760
Speaker 1: given a couple of um spanky Hank. Yeah, you want

1363
01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:38,960
Speaker 1: to notice real nickname for jew boy? Oh my god,

1364
01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:44,800
Speaker 1: she says christ it is Nixon. But it's like, I mean,

1365
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:46,639
Speaker 1: I thought we would be jumping off of the name

1366
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:48,719
Speaker 1: a little bit. He's just like, what am I gonna

1367
01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:55,040
Speaker 1: call you? Spanky Hank? No, little drew boy, good lord?

1368
01:17:55,640 --> 01:17:57,880
Speaker 1: And again it says a lot about Henry Kissinger that

1369
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:05,479
Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, all right, that's the funny that mans,

1370
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:11,240
Speaker 1: not childhood have no effect on me today, not what

1371
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:17,840
Speaker 1: So there must have been an element of Nixon then

1372
01:18:18,080 --> 01:18:22,080
Speaker 1: who knew what an ass kissing little bit he was?

1373
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:28,120
Speaker 1: Because he's belittling him to his face and he'll stick around.

1374
01:18:28,320 --> 01:18:30,800
Speaker 1: It's why you get hired for these jobs, because it's

1375
01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:34,160
Speaker 1: just like it's not you know, and an empty vacuum.

1376
01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:36,560
Speaker 1: Who is going to be your right hand man is

1377
01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:39,919
Speaker 1: they'll you know, there's security in that, there's there's secrecy

1378
01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:42,320
Speaker 1: in that he's like a vacuum Gareth, and that he'll

1379
01:18:42,400 --> 01:18:44,760
Speaker 1: suck Nixon's dick, but he's also like a toilet and

1380
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:47,960
Speaker 1: that he'll take Nixon Ship. You know, that's very kissing chair.

1381
01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:56,080
Speaker 1: He's he's a dick. Yeah, yeah, he's like the total

1382
01:18:56,120 --> 01:18:57,960
Speaker 1: toilet is pretty effective. But have you ever had a

1383
01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:04,320
Speaker 1: dick sucking toilet? Come either way, I'm ready for it, baby,

1384
01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:07,320
Speaker 1: Henry kissing her? So be can the title be Henry

1385
01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:16,799
Speaker 1: Kissinger dick sucking toilet? Speaking speaking of dick sucking toilets,

1386
01:19:16,880 --> 01:19:22,080
Speaker 1: it is time for a commercial break. That is who

1387
01:19:22,160 --> 01:19:30,200
Speaker 1: sponsors our podcast, Raytheon's new dick sucking toilet. Well, it

1388
01:19:30,400 --> 01:19:32,519
Speaker 1: is going to fire a missile little bus loaded children.

1389
01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:35,800
Speaker 1: But that's that's just the Raytheon. You know, we can't

1390
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:40,120
Speaker 1: avoid it. We're contractually obligated. Yeah, it's how it works.

1391
01:19:41,960 --> 01:19:46,280
Speaker 1: So Nixon announced Kissinger's appointment as the National Security Advisor

1392
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:48,880
Speaker 1: before he had even picked a Secretary of State, which

1393
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:52,040
Speaker 1: is an unprecedented move. He announced Henry as quote and

1394
01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:54,719
Speaker 1: this again in his like public announcement to the country

1395
01:19:54,960 --> 01:19:57,360
Speaker 1: as quote, a man who is known to all people

1396
01:19:57,400 --> 01:19:59,800
Speaker 1: who are interested in foreign policy is perhaps one of

1397
01:19:59,840 --> 01:20:02,920
Speaker 1: the major scholars in America and the world in this area.

1398
01:20:03,320 --> 01:20:05,800
Speaker 1: And he acknowledged that while Kissinger had never held a

1399
01:20:05,840 --> 01:20:09,160
Speaker 1: full time government job before, he had Nixon's confidence to

1400
01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:12,439
Speaker 1: bring in a whole new foreign policy team quote newman

1401
01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:15,920
Speaker 1: to develop new ideas. Now. The conservative media of the

1402
01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:19,479
Speaker 1: day immediately roared into gear halan Henry Kissinger as an

1403
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:23,439
Speaker 1: unprecedented policy genius, the man necessary to get America back

1404
01:20:23,520 --> 01:20:26,200
Speaker 1: on track after nearly a decade of disastrous war under

1405
01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:30,600
Speaker 1: Democratic presidents. William F. Buckley wrote, not since Florence Nightingale

1406
01:20:30,640 --> 01:20:37,320
Speaker 1: has any public figure received such universal acclamation. William F.

1407
01:20:37,560 --> 01:20:48,639
Speaker 1: Buckley ship fantastic. Yeah, it's amazing. But even ostensibly liberal

1408
01:20:48,720 --> 01:20:52,639
Speaker 1: figures were wooed by Kissinger's court titanic intellect and Henry

1409
01:20:52,680 --> 01:20:56,759
Speaker 1: Kissinger and American power, Thomas Schwartz, writes. The liberal historian

1410
01:20:56,920 --> 01:20:59,559
Speaker 1: Arthur Schlessinger Jr. Simply referred to it as the best

1411
01:20:59,640 --> 01:21:02,639
Speaker 1: appoint meant so far. The New York Times columnist Tom

1412
01:21:02,720 --> 01:21:05,559
Speaker 1: Wicker noted the collective scient of relief that went up

1413
01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:09,439
Speaker 1: from the liberal Eastern Establishment and the Ivy League fearing

1414
01:21:09,520 --> 01:21:12,040
Speaker 1: Nixon's cold warrior image, most shared in the sentiment of

1415
01:21:12,120 --> 01:21:16,479
Speaker 1: Kissinger's Harvard colleague Adam yr Yarmolinsky. Will all sleep a

1416
01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:18,960
Speaker 1: little better each night. No mean, Kissinger is down there,

1417
01:21:19,200 --> 01:21:21,720
Speaker 1: you mean, and the toilet getting ready to suck bit.

1418
01:21:22,920 --> 01:21:26,479
Speaker 1: You know. Again, it's exactly what happened with Trump. Yes,

1419
01:21:26,640 --> 01:21:30,000
Speaker 1: and it's it's like it's the way that I mean again,

1420
01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:35,519
Speaker 1: it's people's natural reaction is normally kind of there. It's

1421
01:21:35,600 --> 01:21:38,960
Speaker 1: just the fears are assuaged by people who they consider

1422
01:21:39,080 --> 01:21:43,360
Speaker 1: to be, you know, the compass, and they're just not.

1423
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:46,320
Speaker 1: And so when when you're told that there are the

1424
01:21:46,439 --> 01:21:50,160
Speaker 1: good guys inside the bad camp, it's like, it's just

1425
01:21:50,560 --> 01:21:53,920
Speaker 1: never fucking true. It is rot from the core. Yeah,

1426
01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:57,400
Speaker 1: and it is. These liberals are also are also impressed

1427
01:21:57,400 --> 01:21:59,360
Speaker 1: by him and so comforted by him because they think

1428
01:21:59,400 --> 01:22:01,920
Speaker 1: he's smart, because he's good at quoting smart dead people. Right.

1429
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:04,519
Speaker 1: It is the same thing that happened with Maddie. Maddie Thankfully,

1430
01:22:04,520 --> 01:22:07,360
Speaker 1: it's not nearly as toxic a person as Henry Kissinger.

1431
01:22:07,560 --> 01:22:09,840
Speaker 1: But like, if you actually look at Mattie's background, one

1432
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:11,360
Speaker 1: of the things he did in the Iraq War was

1433
01:22:11,479 --> 01:22:13,920
Speaker 1: cover up a war crime. Like he's not a not

1434
01:22:14,040 --> 01:22:16,040
Speaker 1: a man to be like, I mean, and he was.

1435
01:22:16,160 --> 01:22:18,519
Speaker 1: He was, like he was very popular among people who

1436
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:20,400
Speaker 1: served under him, which is part of like why there

1437
01:22:20,520 --> 01:22:22,719
Speaker 1: was this kind of collective relief. But it's this idea

1438
01:22:22,760 --> 01:22:25,120
Speaker 1: that he's like the warrior monk, right. They love the

1439
01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:28,000
Speaker 1: idea that like, well, this guy who's president is a maniac,

1440
01:22:28,160 --> 01:22:30,760
Speaker 1: but this dude reads books that he hired, so that'll

1441
01:22:30,800 --> 01:22:33,400
Speaker 1: it'll be okay, And you know it's never okay. You

1442
01:22:33,479 --> 01:22:37,759
Speaker 1: continue to lower the bar more and more. You're obvious,

1443
01:22:37,840 --> 01:22:40,120
Speaker 1: like the people that you're bringing back are part of

1444
01:22:40,200 --> 01:22:43,519
Speaker 1: a lower bar. But because the bar is even lower,

1445
01:22:43,880 --> 01:22:46,400
Speaker 1: it seems and feels a little higher. But it is

1446
01:22:46,520 --> 01:22:52,280
Speaker 1: all just it's just this is exactly what happened with

1447
01:22:52,360 --> 01:23:00,439
Speaker 1: Colin Powell. Evil We did exactly, Yeah, over it up,

1448
01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:04,680
Speaker 1: sucking the massacres and fucking Vietnam. That's like when he

1449
01:23:04,840 --> 01:23:08,439
Speaker 1: started out like terrible human being. But the press did

1450
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:12,439
Speaker 1: the same. Ship. If you can quote old books and

1451
01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:15,800
Speaker 1: smile and you're willing to give journalists time, they will

1452
01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:18,920
Speaker 1: talk about you as being the secret reasonable person within

1453
01:23:19,000 --> 01:23:21,679
Speaker 1: the war crimes party. You know, like that's all it takes.

1454
01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:25,280
Speaker 1: It's great. It's just the same thing as if you're

1455
01:23:25,360 --> 01:23:28,160
Speaker 1: a Nazi who reads books. You can get a time

1456
01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:33,160
Speaker 1: file addressed nicely. Yeah, or you'll get on sixty minutes

1457
01:23:33,280 --> 01:23:37,479
Speaker 1: or whatever. You know. Um, it's it's don't trust people

1458
01:23:37,600 --> 01:23:40,280
Speaker 1: who want you to think they're smart. That's never a

1459
01:23:40,320 --> 01:23:42,800
Speaker 1: good sign smart. It's the same thing. It's the same

1460
01:23:42,840 --> 01:23:44,799
Speaker 1: thing with like people who want you to believe they're dangerous.

1461
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:47,400
Speaker 1: If they want you to believe something specific about them,

1462
01:23:47,439 --> 01:23:49,840
Speaker 1: they're lying about it. That's how people work. And and

1463
01:23:50,120 --> 01:23:52,680
Speaker 1: if a if a doctor wants to get on the

1464
01:23:52,800 --> 01:23:55,719
Speaker 1: news to talk about COVID and be famous on the news,

1465
01:23:56,040 --> 01:23:58,200
Speaker 1: that's actually not a doctor you should listen to. Had

1466
01:23:58,200 --> 01:24:01,200
Speaker 1: a great guy also, I mean it's you know, it's

1467
01:24:01,280 --> 01:24:05,280
Speaker 1: from the same publications and the same networks. It the

1468
01:24:05,479 --> 01:24:09,479
Speaker 1: idea that you continue to listen to these sources about

1469
01:24:10,439 --> 01:24:13,360
Speaker 1: what is right and what is wrong just because they

1470
01:24:13,439 --> 01:24:17,080
Speaker 1: have fancy terms like senior policy advice. It's like it's

1471
01:24:17,120 --> 01:24:20,959
Speaker 1: all fucking it's it's days of our lives. It's their actors.

1472
01:24:21,280 --> 01:24:24,200
Speaker 1: These are tele prompters. Yeah, and they don't know any

1473
01:24:24,280 --> 01:24:27,120
Speaker 1: more than you about anything that matters. As a general rule.

1474
01:24:27,200 --> 01:24:28,760
Speaker 1: Every now and then you get but like even like

1475
01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:32,240
Speaker 1: within agencies that are heavily like medical oriented, like the CDC,

1476
01:24:32,360 --> 01:24:33,680
Speaker 1: where you would expect them to have a lot of

1477
01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:36,439
Speaker 1: specialized knowledge. It doesn't necessarily mean they're going to do

1478
01:24:36,439 --> 01:24:44,240
Speaker 1: a good job. Much times comfortably lied about Iraq. Yeah,

1479
01:24:44,800 --> 01:24:48,040
Speaker 1: it's it's not great. So during the transition from the

1480
01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:51,559
Speaker 1: Johnson to Nixon administration, US Military Command began to act

1481
01:24:51,640 --> 01:24:54,439
Speaker 1: under what General Creighton Abrams described as a total war

1482
01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:58,840
Speaker 1: mindset against the infrastructure of the Vietcong insurgency. This began

1483
01:24:58,920 --> 01:25:00,720
Speaker 1: with a six month operation and to clear the Meet

1484
01:25:00,760 --> 01:25:04,479
Speaker 1: Kong Delta code named Operations Speedy Express. This would prove

1485
01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:06,920
Speaker 1: to be the first major military operation that both Nixon

1486
01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:10,360
Speaker 1: and Kissinger oversaw, and it was a titanic blood bath.

1487
01:25:10,720 --> 01:25:13,040
Speaker 1: There is a good article on this operation in the

1488
01:25:13,240 --> 01:25:16,160
Speaker 1: Nation and the title of the article is A my

1489
01:25:16,400 --> 01:25:21,240
Speaker 1: Lie a month, Oh my God. Yeah, so it's it's

1490
01:25:21,280 --> 01:25:25,519
Speaker 1: all god. Now, the Myli massacre had occurred in nineteen

1491
01:25:25,560 --> 01:25:27,800
Speaker 1: sixty eight, before Nixon or Kissinger were in power. You

1492
01:25:27,840 --> 01:25:29,960
Speaker 1: know that ain't on them, uh, and seymour Hurst didn't

1493
01:25:29,960 --> 01:25:31,800
Speaker 1: like break the story until sixty nine, which is the

1494
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:33,840
Speaker 1: year that they come to power. And this slaughter of

1495
01:25:33,880 --> 01:25:37,120
Speaker 1: five hundred civilians by US troops was horrific enough, but

1496
01:25:37,240 --> 01:25:39,880
Speaker 1: within a few months of taking power, speedy express had

1497
01:25:39,920 --> 01:25:43,920
Speaker 1: exceeded it many times. Quote from the Nation, an inkling

1498
01:25:44,000 --> 01:25:45,960
Speaker 1: that something terrible had taken place in the Meet Kong

1499
01:25:46,040 --> 01:25:49,040
Speaker 1: Delta appeared in a most unlikely source, a formerly confidential

1500
01:25:49,080 --> 01:25:52,680
Speaker 1: September nineteen sixty nine senior officer debriefing report by none

1501
01:25:52,680 --> 01:25:55,120
Speaker 1: other than the commander of the Ninth Division, then Major

1502
01:25:55,200 --> 01:25:57,800
Speaker 1: General Julian Ewell, who came to be known inside the

1503
01:25:57,840 --> 01:26:00,400
Speaker 1: military as the Butcher of the Delta because of his

1504
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:03,760
Speaker 1: single minded fixation on body count. In reports, copies of

1505
01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:05,880
Speaker 1: which were sent to Westmoreland's office and to other high

1506
01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:08,760
Speaker 1: ranking officials, you will candidly noted that while the Ninth

1507
01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:12,200
Speaker 1: Division stressed the discriminate and selective use of firepower, in

1508
01:26:12,280 --> 01:26:15,080
Speaker 1: some areas of the Delta, where this emphasis wasn't applied

1509
01:26:15,160 --> 01:26:18,679
Speaker 1: or wasn't feasible, the countryside looked like the Verdun battle fields,

1510
01:26:18,960 --> 01:26:21,439
Speaker 1: the site of a notoriously bloody World War One battle.

1511
01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:24,800
Speaker 1: That December, a document produced by the National Liberation Front

1512
01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 1: sharpened the picture. It reported that between December first, nineteen

1513
01:26:28,040 --> 01:26:30,720
Speaker 1: sixty eight and April first, nineteen sixty nine, primarily in

1514
01:26:30,760 --> 01:26:33,960
Speaker 1: the Delta provinces of Kanhua and Din twong, the ninth

1515
01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:37,000
Speaker 1: Division launched an express rate and mopped up many areas,

1516
01:26:37,200 --> 01:26:40,679
Speaker 1: slaughtering three thousand people, mostly old folks, women and children,

1517
01:26:40,720 --> 01:26:43,639
Speaker 1: and destroying thousands of houses, hundreds of hectares of fields

1518
01:26:43,680 --> 01:26:47,200
Speaker 1: and orchards. But like most in Left reports of civilian atrocities,

1519
01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:50,320
Speaker 1: this one was almost certainly dismissed as propaganda by US officials.

1520
01:26:50,520 --> 01:26:53,439
Speaker 1: A United Press International report that same months and month

1521
01:26:53,520 --> 01:26:55,840
Speaker 1: in which US advisors charged the Vision with having driven

1522
01:26:55,880 --> 01:26:58,759
Speaker 1: up the body count by killing civilians with helicopter gunships

1523
01:26:58,800 --> 01:27:03,599
Speaker 1: in artillery was all so largely ignored. And it's because

1524
01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:06,240
Speaker 1: they're saying they're soldiers, that they're shooting from a distance,

1525
01:27:06,320 --> 01:27:09,080
Speaker 1: and then they just have like Colin pal justified it

1526
01:27:09,160 --> 01:27:12,920
Speaker 1: by saying, well, they're they're providing food for the enemy,

1527
01:27:13,320 --> 01:27:17,599
Speaker 1: so there's no difference. Yeah. By the time Speedy Express

1528
01:27:17,640 --> 01:27:19,720
Speaker 1: comes to an end, US forces had killed more than

1529
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:23,040
Speaker 1: ten thousand people. The vast majority of these were claimed

1530
01:27:23,160 --> 01:27:26,040
Speaker 1: to have been insurgent fighters, but extensive mop up after

1531
01:27:26,160 --> 01:27:28,840
Speaker 1: operations after the fact found less than eight hundred weapons

1532
01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:34,040
Speaker 1: on all these bodies they share. That is fucking crazy. Yeah,

1533
01:27:34,320 --> 01:27:40,120
Speaker 1: I mean, like we can't even frame them competentity now.

1534
01:27:40,840 --> 01:27:46,040
Speaker 1: And you also remember you're taking guys that you drafted. Yeah, yeah, right,

1535
01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:48,880
Speaker 1: yeah right, you know to do this. Yeah, I mean,

1536
01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:51,200
Speaker 1: like you said with your uncle, I mean it it is,

1537
01:27:51,280 --> 01:27:55,120
Speaker 1: it's like the generational ripple through that and the lifetime

1538
01:27:56,240 --> 01:27:59,240
Speaker 1: you know what what it does? It really? I mean yeah,

1539
01:27:59,479 --> 01:28:05,320
Speaker 1: just it's pretty beyond who dies, who doesn't live again? Yeah, yeah, exactly,

1540
01:28:05,520 --> 01:28:09,080
Speaker 1: and what you know, what do people take back with them? Um? Now,

1541
01:28:09,160 --> 01:28:10,920
Speaker 1: it is fair and necessary to note that this began

1542
01:28:11,000 --> 01:28:13,160
Speaker 1: in the December before Nixon and Kissinger took office. This

1543
01:28:13,240 --> 01:28:14,840
Speaker 1: is not entirely on them. Some of the blame for

1544
01:28:14,880 --> 01:28:17,720
Speaker 1: this ghost on the LBJ administration as well, obviously, but

1545
01:28:17,840 --> 01:28:21,200
Speaker 1: it continued under them. This paragraph, written by Christopher Hitchens,

1546
01:28:21,280 --> 01:28:23,479
Speaker 1: gives you some idea of the savagery of what occurred

1547
01:28:23,520 --> 01:28:26,080
Speaker 1: in the early days of the Nixon administration's control of

1548
01:28:26,120 --> 01:28:29,640
Speaker 1: the Vietnam War. The people who still live in pacified

1549
01:28:29,720 --> 01:28:32,959
Speaker 1: Kinhoa all have vivid recollections of the devastation that American

1550
01:28:33,040 --> 01:28:35,720
Speaker 1: firepower brought to their lives in early nineteen sixty nine.

1551
01:28:36,080 --> 01:28:38,400
Speaker 1: Virtually every person to whom I spoke had suffered in

1552
01:28:38,520 --> 01:28:40,800
Speaker 1: some way. There were five thousand people in our village

1553
01:28:40,800 --> 01:28:43,280
Speaker 1: before nineteen sixty nine, but there were none in nineteen

1554
01:28:43,400 --> 01:28:46,680
Speaker 1: seventy one. Village elder told me the Americans destroyed every

1555
01:28:46,720 --> 01:28:49,240
Speaker 1: house with artillery airstrikes or by burning them down with

1556
01:28:49,320 --> 01:28:52,040
Speaker 1: cigarette lighters. About a hundred people were killed by bombing,

1557
01:28:52,080 --> 01:28:55,000
Speaker 1: others were wounded, and others became refugees. Many were children

1558
01:28:55,080 --> 01:28:57,439
Speaker 1: killed by concussion from the bombs, which their small bodies

1559
01:28:57,479 --> 01:29:02,080
Speaker 1: could not withstand, even if they were hiding underground. So

1560
01:29:03,760 --> 01:29:06,200
Speaker 1: Nixon's plan at the beginning, you know, when his people

1561
01:29:06,280 --> 01:29:08,800
Speaker 1: had derailed the peace negotiations in sixty eight, was that

1562
01:29:08,840 --> 01:29:12,519
Speaker 1: he would win election and then make peace with with Vietnam. Right,

1563
01:29:12,560 --> 01:29:14,160
Speaker 1: then he's going to do the thing that he promised

1564
01:29:14,160 --> 01:29:16,360
Speaker 1: to do. But it swiftly became clear that peace was

1565
01:29:16,439 --> 01:29:18,679
Speaker 1: a messy prospect. One of the things he's worried about

1566
01:29:18,720 --> 01:29:21,080
Speaker 1: is that, like, well, if we withdraw them with Vietnam,

1567
01:29:21,680 --> 01:29:24,840
Speaker 1: the Saigon government's probably going to fall, right because there

1568
01:29:25,280 --> 01:29:29,320
Speaker 1: we're just barely propping up this shitty dictatorship. Um, and

1569
01:29:29,439 --> 01:29:32,120
Speaker 1: that'll be it will make me look weak, right, And

1570
01:29:32,360 --> 01:29:33,720
Speaker 1: so I can't do it because it will make me

1571
01:29:33,760 --> 01:29:39,200
Speaker 1: look weak if um, Yeah, and then I won't win

1572
01:29:39,280 --> 01:29:42,040
Speaker 1: re election in nineteen seventy two, and that's unacceptable. I

1573
01:29:42,080 --> 01:29:44,599
Speaker 1: mean that and that and that. I mean obviously keeps

1574
01:29:44,640 --> 01:29:48,040
Speaker 1: going over and over like it's you get into office

1575
01:29:48,080 --> 01:29:50,200
Speaker 1: and then you're like, well what about re election instead

1576
01:29:50,240 --> 01:29:53,080
Speaker 1: of going like the best direction for it is one

1577
01:29:53,120 --> 01:29:55,080
Speaker 1: of the few things I'll give Biden some credit for

1578
01:29:55,280 --> 01:29:57,479
Speaker 1: because he had the same calculus with Afghanistan. A lot

1579
01:29:57,520 --> 01:29:59,880
Speaker 1: of criticisms to make about the poet from Afghanistan, but

1580
01:30:00,040 --> 01:30:02,519
Speaker 1: he did not make the same decision Nixon and Kissinger did.

1581
01:30:02,680 --> 01:30:06,920
Speaker 1: He did fucking get out. Yeah, I would like to

1582
01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:09,800
Speaker 1: be I have a much more darker outlook on that,

1583
01:30:10,040 --> 01:30:15,160
Speaker 1: and I mean it's yeah, it's he knew that Ukraine

1584
01:30:15,320 --> 01:30:17,639
Speaker 1: was was kicking off because that's been kicking off since

1585
01:30:17,880 --> 01:30:21,560
Speaker 1: um he actually two thousands one election, but you know

1586
01:30:21,640 --> 01:30:26,040
Speaker 1: it was Zelinski was largely for peace until all of

1587
01:30:26,040 --> 01:30:28,120
Speaker 1: a sudden Biden got elected and then he flipped and

1588
01:30:28,200 --> 01:30:30,720
Speaker 1: I was like, I want today to all this ship. So, uh,

1589
01:30:30,960 --> 01:30:33,080
Speaker 1: you know, if you can pull out of Afghanistan, if

1590
01:30:33,120 --> 01:30:37,800
Speaker 1: you know there's another area cooking up, I mean negative, yeah, yeah,

1591
01:30:37,880 --> 01:30:40,360
Speaker 1: it's probably too complicated to want to get into here. Um,

1592
01:30:40,800 --> 01:30:45,120
Speaker 1: because that's a whole another several it's worth of stories.

1593
01:30:45,160 --> 01:30:49,160
Speaker 1: It's a ship hole of just unbelievable garbage all over

1594
01:30:49,240 --> 01:30:52,800
Speaker 1: the place. Yeah. So withdrawing from Vietnam and Saigon is

1595
01:30:52,840 --> 01:30:54,519
Speaker 1: going to fall, with the government's gonna fall, and that

1596
01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:56,560
Speaker 1: will be bad in the seventy two elections, and it

1597
01:30:56,640 --> 01:30:59,240
Speaker 1: might push Kissinger and Nixon out of power. Neither of

1598
01:30:59,320 --> 01:31:01,599
Speaker 1: them can accept this. And this description of a meeting

1599
01:31:01,600 --> 01:31:04,960
Speaker 1: from December nineteen seventy by H. R. Haldeman shows Kissinger's

1600
01:31:05,080 --> 01:31:07,840
Speaker 1: role in pulling back from peace. Kissinger came in and

1601
01:31:07,880 --> 01:31:10,519
Speaker 1: the discussion covered some of the general thinking about Vietnam

1602
01:31:10,720 --> 01:31:13,360
Speaker 1: and the president's big peace plan for the next year,

1603
01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:15,880
Speaker 1: with Kissinger later which Kissinger later told me he does

1604
01:31:15,920 --> 01:31:18,240
Speaker 1: not favor. He thinks that any pullout from next year

1605
01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:20,519
Speaker 1: would be a serious mistake because the adverse reaction to

1606
01:31:20,600 --> 01:31:22,960
Speaker 1: it could set in well before the seventy two elections.

1607
01:31:23,280 --> 01:31:25,760
Speaker 1: He favors instead of continued winding down and then a

1608
01:31:25,800 --> 01:31:27,960
Speaker 1: pull out right at the fall of seventy two, so

1609
01:31:28,040 --> 01:31:29,880
Speaker 1: that if any bad results follow, they will be too

1610
01:31:30,000 --> 01:31:35,560
Speaker 1: late to effect the election. Yeah, And it's you know,

1611
01:31:35,800 --> 01:31:39,040
Speaker 1: that's what our wars always are they're all about Yeah,

1612
01:31:39,439 --> 01:31:44,200
Speaker 1: they're all about elections. They fucking always are. It's you know,

1613
01:31:44,439 --> 01:31:49,160
Speaker 1: I mean there. Yeah, this led to Republicans thinking that,

1614
01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:51,000
Speaker 1: you know, they had to get war back on track

1615
01:31:51,080 --> 01:31:55,080
Speaker 1: at some point. Yeah, but you know it's always it's

1616
01:31:55,280 --> 01:31:59,280
Speaker 1: it's never it never works like it's it's just such

1617
01:31:59,320 --> 01:32:02,519
Speaker 1: a crazy idea. And you also, like people are watching

1618
01:32:02,560 --> 01:32:05,720
Speaker 1: bodybags go home, like no one's happy about anything that's

1619
01:32:05,760 --> 01:32:09,760
Speaker 1: going on. No, and it um this they just kind

1620
01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:11,439
Speaker 1: of I mean this part of why it keeps going

1621
01:32:11,800 --> 01:32:14,679
Speaker 1: is um this kind of craven knowledge that like, well,

1622
01:32:15,800 --> 01:32:18,960
Speaker 1: the worst thing that could happen is we don't get reelected. Yeah.

1623
01:32:19,160 --> 01:32:20,880
Speaker 1: At no point is he thinking about any of the

1624
01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:24,360
Speaker 1: human beings involved, even any of the American human beings involved.

1625
01:32:24,439 --> 01:32:27,479
Speaker 1: It's just like, well, we can't be losing reelection. You know,

1626
01:32:27,760 --> 01:32:30,840
Speaker 1: imagine if Kissinger was damaged from his childhood, how bad

1627
01:32:30,920 --> 01:32:38,080
Speaker 1: things would get bad. It's like, you know, actually, when

1628
01:32:38,120 --> 01:32:40,400
Speaker 1: we talk about the story of like American presidents making

1629
01:32:40,439 --> 01:32:43,880
Speaker 1: craven political decisions, one of the reasons FDR did not

1630
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:47,559
Speaker 1: approve more effort being taken to evacuate Jewish refugees from Germany,

1631
01:32:47,560 --> 01:32:49,000
Speaker 1: as he did not want to be seen as pro

1632
01:32:49,160 --> 01:32:52,720
Speaker 1: Jewess the socialist policies and stuff that we're going through.

1633
01:32:52,760 --> 01:32:54,479
Speaker 1: He knew that that could hurt him. There were a

1634
01:32:54,560 --> 01:32:56,519
Speaker 1: number of other reasons, but like, yeah, they're like they

1635
01:32:56,600 --> 01:32:59,160
Speaker 1: did not that is like there is there were things

1636
01:32:59,280 --> 01:33:02,080
Speaker 1: that were done that led to the US government saving

1637
01:33:02,160 --> 01:33:04,479
Speaker 1: fewer Jewish people from the Holocaust that we're done for

1638
01:33:04,600 --> 01:33:07,439
Speaker 1: craven political reasons by the FDR administration. Let me hear

1639
01:33:07,479 --> 01:33:13,200
Speaker 1: this Kaiser pitch again. It actually big hat, I learned

1640
01:33:13,280 --> 01:33:17,000
Speaker 1: the hat. This hat you've ever seen big, very spiky

1641
01:33:17,640 --> 01:33:28,960
Speaker 1: now loves his mom's hands. But god, So the fun

1642
01:33:29,080 --> 01:33:31,240
Speaker 1: thing about this episode is that everything we're going to

1643
01:33:31,320 --> 01:33:33,160
Speaker 1: talk about in part three is even worse because in

1644
01:33:33,240 --> 01:33:36,240
Speaker 1: part three we're going to talk about fucking Cambodia. UM.

1645
01:33:37,439 --> 01:33:43,759
Speaker 1: So you guys want to plug anything after my ears

1646
01:33:44,560 --> 01:33:48,000
Speaker 1: three hours? Yeah, I'm going to be I'm going to

1647
01:33:48,120 --> 01:33:53,000
Speaker 1: be in a toilet trying to get clean. You can

1648
01:33:53,360 --> 01:33:56,599
Speaker 1: go to the Dollar go to Dollar podcast dot com

1649
01:33:56,680 --> 01:34:01,360
Speaker 1: for tour information and my website ads dot com. I'm

1650
01:34:01,400 --> 01:34:04,680
Speaker 1: on tour, but not like tours of duty, just like

1651
01:34:04,840 --> 01:34:08,320
Speaker 1: stand up and podcast tours. UM with the aim of

1652
01:34:10,040 --> 01:34:13,559
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk like that anymore, Dave, Dave,

1653
01:34:13,600 --> 01:34:18,160
Speaker 1: shut your mouth and you can just listen to you

1654
01:34:18,720 --> 01:34:25,719
Speaker 1: just fucking murdered the whole fucking face. Like you left

1655
01:34:25,840 --> 01:34:29,600
Speaker 1: unexploded ordinance in the crowd they tripped over. Should have

1656
01:34:29,640 --> 01:34:35,320
Speaker 1: been over fifteen minutes earlier. And like with unexploded ordinance

1657
01:34:35,400 --> 01:34:38,240
Speaker 1: in law of the people who loved your jokes, after

1658
01:34:38,280 --> 01:34:41,920
Speaker 1: the said ended, we're children no more. There'll be no

1659
01:34:42,040 --> 01:34:48,160
Speaker 1: more relating. There'll be no more correlating. Yeah, anyway, that's

1660
01:34:48,200 --> 01:34:50,400
Speaker 1: part two. You've got two more weeks of Henry kissing

1661
01:34:50,439 --> 01:34:52,720
Speaker 1: your ahead of you folks, to strap in gets a

1662
01:34:52,800 --> 01:34:55,960
Speaker 1: lot uglier. But also we'll be talking about his sex life.

1663
01:34:56,000 --> 01:34:59,320
Speaker 1: So you know, I was going to say something to

1664
01:34:59,400 --> 01:35:04,479
Speaker 1: look forward too, but like not, Yeah, yeah, come back

1665
01:35:04,600 --> 01:35:07,080
Speaker 1: next week for more of the dick sucking toilet Henry

1666
01:35:07,120 --> 01:35:13,200
Speaker 1: kissing Jerre look a pretty good title. So if he's

1667
01:35:13,200 --> 01:35:15,080
Speaker 1: not happy with no, so, if he's not on board,

1668
01:35:15,640 --> 01:35:21,960
Speaker 1: I don't love it. But you know, all right, Hi, everybody,

1669
01:35:22,080 --> 01:35:24,800
Speaker 1: Robert Evans here and my novel After the Revolution is

1670
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Speaker 1: available for pre order now from a k press dot org. Now,

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Speaker 1: if you go to a k press dot org, you

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Speaker 1: can find after the revolution. Just google a k press

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Speaker 1: dot org after the revolution you'll find a list of

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Speaker 1: participating indie bookstores selling my book. And if you pre

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Speaker 1: order now from either these independent bookstores or from a

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Speaker 1: K Press, you'll get a custom signed copy of the book,

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Speaker 1: which I think is pretty cool. You can also pre

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Speaker 1: order it in physical or in kindle a form from

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Speaker 1: Amazon or pretty much wherever books are sold. So please

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Speaker 1: google a k press after the revolution um or find

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Speaker 1: an indie bookstore in your area and pre order it.

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Speaker 1: You'll get as signed a copy, and you'll make me

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Speaker 1: very happy.