1 00:00:06,790 --> 00:00:10,690 Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host, 2 00:00:10,869 --> 00:00:11,750 Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan. 3 00:00:14,230 --> 00:00:14,870 Speaker 2: Hey, everybody. 4 00:00:14,890 --> 00:00:18,810 Speaker 3: Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. Imagine being 5 00:00:18,850 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 3: a teenager who looks like she has a perfectly normal life. 6 00:00:23,060 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 3: Then she meets a charismatic stranger, joins his group of 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:31,220 Speaker 3: free-spirited young followers, and winds up taking part in one 8 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:35,210 Speaker 3: of the most horrifying murder sprees in American history. That 9 00:00:35,310 --> 00:00:38,170 Speaker 3: is the story of Leslie Van Houten, who was just 10 00:00:38,170 --> 00:00:42,820 Speaker 3: 19 when she helped murder Leno and Rosemary LaBianca on 11 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 3: the orders of Charles Manson. She spent more than five 12 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:51,940 Speaker 3: decades behind bars before being released in 2023. My guest 13 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 3: today is Greer Grammer, who played Leslie in Lifetime's Manson's 14 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 3: Lost Girls. We're talking about how Manson gained control of 15 00:01:00,300 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 3: these young women and the chilling reality behind the movie, 16 00:01:03,460 --> 00:01:07,890 Speaker 3: and the question that still divides people. How much responsibility 17 00:01:07,970 --> 00:01:10,490 Speaker 3: belongs to the follower and how much to the man 18 00:01:10,610 --> 00:01:11,590 Speaker 3: pulling the strings? 19 00:01:12,370 --> 00:01:12,970 Speaker 1: Hi, Greer. 20 00:01:13,090 --> 00:01:15,910 Speaker 3: Welcome to Killer Thriller. Thank you so much for talking 21 00:01:15,950 --> 00:01:16,580 Speaker 3: with me today. 22 00:01:16,590 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: Hi, of course. 23 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to be here. 24 00:01:20,100 --> 00:01:21,940 Speaker 1: So I am a big fan. 25 00:01:22,140 --> 00:01:24,580 Speaker 3: We've already chatted offline about the ways that we know 26 00:01:24,660 --> 00:01:28,110 Speaker 3: each or have mutual friends, and so I'm a very 27 00:01:28,330 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 3: big fan. And But today we are talking about Manson's 28 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 3: Lost Girls. Honestly, this could be like a decade long 29 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:43,100 Speaker 3: interview because there's so much to say. And I read 30 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:48,660 Speaker 3: that you were obsessed with Manson since you were 15. 31 00:01:48,660 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 4: Why? 32 00:01:49,180 --> 00:01:51,420 Speaker 3: Like what drew you to the case in the first place? 33 00:01:52,060 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 4: Oh my gosh. So it's like the most random story 34 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 4: and also in the most like theater kid way. I 35 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 4: went to a school called Idlewild Arts Academy, which was 36 00:02:02,300 --> 00:02:06,530 Speaker 4: like a boarding arts high school in Idlewild, California. And 37 00:02:07,230 --> 00:02:11,950 Speaker 4: we had a class musical theater rep and these two people, 38 00:02:12,010 --> 00:02:15,330 Speaker 4: my friends Preston and Tara, sang this beautiful duet called 39 00:02:15,430 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 4: Unworthy of Your Love from Assassins, from the musical Assassins. 40 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,940 Speaker 2: By Stephen Sondheim. And I was like, this is such 41 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,530 Speaker 2: a beautiful love song. They're singing to each other. It's amazing. 42 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:28,380 Speaker 2: And they were like, they're not singing to each other. 43 00:02:28,940 --> 00:02:32,170 Speaker 4: One of the characters is Squeaky Fromm, and she's singing 44 00:02:32,590 --> 00:02:35,130 Speaker 4: to Charles Manson in prison. And the other one is 45 00:02:35,190 --> 00:02:38,090 Speaker 4: John Hinckley Jr., and he's writing a letter to Jodie Foster. 46 00:02:38,610 --> 00:02:40,970 Speaker 4: And they're singing this. And it comes out like a 47 00:02:40,990 --> 00:02:42,930 Speaker 4: beautiful duet, but it's not. 48 00:02:42,970 --> 00:02:48,150 Speaker 2: And I was like, who's Squeaky Fromm? Who? who's Charles Manson? 49 00:02:48,310 --> 00:02:51,149 Speaker 4: And so immediately like went home, Googled and was like, 50 00:02:51,510 --> 00:02:55,710 Speaker 4: oh my gosh. And just became enthralled and like wrapped 51 00:02:55,889 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 4: up in it. Because I think the thing that draws 52 00:02:59,139 --> 00:03:02,139 Speaker 4: most people to the Manson case is just that like, 53 00:03:03,540 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 4: not that it was normal because it wasn't normal, but 54 00:03:05,740 --> 00:03:10,940 Speaker 4: for the sixties, these were like people from normal neighborhoods, suburbia, 55 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,750 Speaker 4: maybe that were, you know, cast away from their parents 56 00:03:13,850 --> 00:03:17,679 Speaker 4: or summer of love. Like experimenting with things but living 57 00:03:17,740 --> 00:03:20,900 Speaker 4: on a hippie commune like wasn't uncommon so it's like 58 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:25,610 Speaker 4: what drew these people to this man and what made 59 00:03:25,630 --> 00:03:29,950 Speaker 4: them do this incredibly heinous awful crime and how is 60 00:03:29,970 --> 00:03:31,450 Speaker 4: that different than you and so it's just like I 61 00:03:31,490 --> 00:03:35,530 Speaker 4: went down a whole rabbit hole and just became like 62 00:03:35,730 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 4: obsessed with it it was so fascinating to. 63 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: Me yep to me too and so so. 64 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 3: Essentially, for those who don't know much about Charles Manson, 65 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:45,820 Speaker 3: which I don't know if there is anybody who doesn't 66 00:03:45,860 --> 00:03:49,430 Speaker 3: know about Charles Manson, but how, so he was essentially a, 67 00:03:51,100 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 3: had spent most of his life in prison, was, had 68 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,470 Speaker 3: a terrible childhood, got out of prison, was a failed musician, 69 00:03:58,780 --> 00:04:00,530 Speaker 3: you know, was convicted criminal. 70 00:04:00,550 --> 00:04:01,990 Speaker 1: So how does somebody like. 71 00:04:01,870 --> 00:04:07,370 Speaker 3: That manage to attract so many young followers and particularly women? 72 00:04:08,300 --> 00:04:10,820 Speaker 2: I'm like, that's a really great question. 73 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,890 Speaker 4: When I'm asking myself every time I learn something new 74 00:04:13,910 --> 00:04:17,330 Speaker 4: about this case, I think, you know, he had that 75 00:04:17,690 --> 00:04:21,589 Speaker 4: thing for whatever reason that just made people feel seen. 76 00:04:21,850 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 4: Like he was really good. He read that book, How 77 00:04:25,100 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 4: to Win Front. 78 00:04:27,339 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: And Influence People? Yes. 79 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:31,500 Speaker 2: I think he read it in prison. 80 00:04:32,270 --> 00:04:34,110 Speaker 4: And so he learned a lot from there, but then, 81 00:04:34,630 --> 00:04:36,290 Speaker 4: you know, he just, he knew what to say to 82 00:04:36,330 --> 00:04:40,710 Speaker 4: these like girls. And I, I mean, I've been in 83 00:04:40,750 --> 00:04:43,530 Speaker 4: a toxic relationship. I know many of my friends have 84 00:04:43,570 --> 00:04:46,620 Speaker 4: as well. Like you fall for somebody that says like, 85 00:04:47,310 --> 00:04:49,790 Speaker 4: you're so beautiful and you're so amazing. 86 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,140 Speaker 2: And the world doesn't see you, but I see you. 87 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:55,300 Speaker 4: And it's so easy to get wrapped up in that, 88 00:04:56,100 --> 00:04:58,380 Speaker 4: especially when there's drugs involved. 89 00:04:58,500 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 2: Like it's easy in general, but also like they were, 90 00:05:02,330 --> 00:05:04,410 Speaker 2: on a, they were on a ranch, like they were 91 00:05:04,450 --> 00:05:06,330 Speaker 2: doing drugs. Yeah. 92 00:05:06,430 --> 00:05:10,850 Speaker 3: I think that part cannot be underestimated how, if you 93 00:05:10,910 --> 00:05:14,830 Speaker 3: are consistently on a regular basis doing heavy drugs and 94 00:05:14,870 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 3: hallucinogens and you have no outside influence, it's like, I mean, you're, 95 00:05:22,620 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 3: it's absolutely a big factor in this. And do you know, 96 00:05:26,700 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 3: so in terms of, so the spawn ranch is what 97 00:05:29,460 --> 00:05:32,900 Speaker 3: you're talking about where they eventually wound up. traveled from 98 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,660 Speaker 3: San Francisco and set up at this ranch that was 99 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,679 Speaker 3: an old movie ranch that I feel like I've shot 100 00:05:39,820 --> 00:05:44,140 Speaker 3: on this ranch before, or I've shot where maybe where 101 00:05:44,170 --> 00:05:45,110 Speaker 3: they shot the movie. 102 00:05:45,250 --> 00:05:47,690 Speaker 4: Yeah, we shot there, but the original spawn ranch is 103 00:05:47,930 --> 00:05:48,790 Speaker 4: in Chatsworth. 104 00:05:48,810 --> 00:05:50,750 Speaker 1: There's a lot of weird stuff that goes on in Chatsworth. 105 00:05:50,810 --> 00:05:51,510 Speaker 1: Let's be honest. 106 00:05:51,529 --> 00:05:54,930 Speaker 2: A lot of weird stuff that happens in Chatsworth. It's far. 107 00:05:55,089 --> 00:05:57,270 Speaker 1: It's an, it's a great psychic there though. 108 00:05:57,370 --> 00:06:02,270 Speaker 3: I will say, um, Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. But, um, aside 109 00:06:02,300 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 3: from that, a lot of weird things go on there. Um, 110 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 3: cause I don't consider that weird at all. 111 00:06:07,460 --> 00:06:09,820 Speaker 1: Uh, so the spawn ranch, so initially it. 112 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,740 Speaker 3: Looks like this idyllic escape, but did you, what did 113 00:06:13,779 --> 00:06:16,780 Speaker 3: you learn about kind of what the, the daily life 114 00:06:16,860 --> 00:06:20,020 Speaker 3: was like there? Like were, were the girls allowed to, 115 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,300 Speaker 3: to leave if they wanted to, were they allowed to 116 00:06:22,339 --> 00:06:23,300 Speaker 3: do whatever they wanted? 117 00:06:24,950 --> 00:06:25,310 Speaker 2: Yeah. 118 00:06:25,490 --> 00:06:28,350 Speaker 4: I'm, as far as I remember from my research, like 119 00:06:28,430 --> 00:06:34,070 Speaker 4: the girls went out, um, especially like Susan and Leslie 120 00:06:34,250 --> 00:06:36,900 Speaker 4: and Patricia, I think like they would go out, they would, um, 121 00:06:37,660 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 4: dumpster dive all the time. I feel like they had 122 00:06:39,940 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 4: a specific name for it. That wasn't dumpster dive. It 123 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 4: was something cooler. Um, but they would go and they 124 00:06:46,220 --> 00:06:48,979 Speaker 4: would like get food and bring it back to the ranch. 125 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 4: Like they would, you know, go rob people. Um, In 126 00:06:53,980 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 4: cutesy ways. I know that sounds not fun, but they 127 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:58,540 Speaker 4: didn't have a lot of money. They weren't working, so 128 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,930 Speaker 4: they would lure men in and just take their money 129 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 4: and have fun with it. 130 00:07:05,940 --> 00:07:06,970 Speaker 2: They were committing crimes. 131 00:07:07,089 --> 00:07:08,570 Speaker 4: I don't want to say they weren't committing crimes, but 132 00:07:08,589 --> 00:07:10,730 Speaker 4: they were intentionally trying to. 133 00:07:10,590 --> 00:07:14,030 Speaker 2: Rob and hold people up at gunpoint. They would go 134 00:07:14,130 --> 00:07:16,250 Speaker 2: out and do creepy crawlies. I know that was a 135 00:07:16,290 --> 00:07:17,730 Speaker 2: big thing, and we had that in the movie. 136 00:07:17,750 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, tell us what that is. 137 00:07:19,170 --> 00:07:22,210 Speaker 4: So the girls, I hate that I seem so excited 138 00:07:22,290 --> 00:07:26,910 Speaker 4: saying it because it's actually terrifying. The girls would go, 139 00:07:26,930 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 4: and I guess the guys too, would go into people's homes. 140 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 2: Notoriously, the 60s, people didn't lock their doors. 141 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 4: So they would go into people's homes in the middle 142 00:07:34,380 --> 00:07:38,660 Speaker 4: of the night and just move things around and move 143 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,340 Speaker 4: the furniture around, maybe take some stuff too. They would, 144 00:07:41,380 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 4: I'm sure, steal jewelry and valuables and cash that they 145 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,890 Speaker 4: could find, but they weren't intentionally... robbing the place. They 146 00:07:48,930 --> 00:07:51,030 Speaker 4: were just going in to mess with people. 147 00:07:51,210 --> 00:07:53,630 Speaker 3: Like sort of the thrill of that or something. 148 00:07:53,950 --> 00:07:55,430 Speaker 1: Yeah. 149 00:07:55,750 --> 00:07:56,030 Speaker 3: Right. 150 00:07:57,470 --> 00:07:59,470 Speaker 4: Going in the thrill of like maybe getting caught, but 151 00:07:59,530 --> 00:08:03,030 Speaker 4: like the fun of going in and like messing and 152 00:08:03,050 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 4: like moving a vase from one place to the next 153 00:08:06,180 --> 00:08:10,980 Speaker 4: and pulling chairs out and switching furniture around. 154 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 2: It's eerie. Like if you wake up in the morning. 155 00:08:15,300 --> 00:08:16,140 Speaker 1: It's very eerie. 156 00:08:16,220 --> 00:08:17,869 Speaker 2: Yeah. It's terrifying. 157 00:08:18,070 --> 00:08:19,330 Speaker 1: And then you can imagine how. 158 00:08:19,250 --> 00:08:25,610 Speaker 3: That sort of escalates, right? It's like, it is typical 159 00:08:25,670 --> 00:08:29,730 Speaker 3: cult-like behavior. You do these minor infractions, these little things 160 00:08:29,790 --> 00:08:32,590 Speaker 3: that seem maybe off, but oh, it's kind of fun. 161 00:08:33,410 --> 00:08:36,910 Speaker 3: And then that just becomes deeper and more serious and 162 00:08:37,170 --> 00:08:41,110 Speaker 3: worse and more dangerous and more violent. And so what 163 00:08:41,130 --> 00:08:46,850 Speaker 3: do you, what was Manson's most effective tactic for making 164 00:08:47,070 --> 00:08:51,780 Speaker 3: the followers feel chosen and special. Did the research you do, 165 00:08:51,980 --> 00:08:55,540 Speaker 3: you did suggest that his power came more from the 166 00:08:55,620 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 3: affection or intimidation or the drugs or a combination? 167 00:09:01,660 --> 00:09:02,750 Speaker 2: Combination for sure. 168 00:09:02,830 --> 00:09:06,729 Speaker 4: But I would definitely say the love and affection like 169 00:09:06,790 --> 00:09:09,650 Speaker 4: was the number one, especially, particularly with the girls. I 170 00:09:09,690 --> 00:09:12,310 Speaker 4: can't really speak to the male part of it. And 171 00:09:12,350 --> 00:09:15,670 Speaker 4: he did have men at the ranch that were followers. 172 00:09:17,550 --> 00:09:19,609 Speaker 4: But I would say with the women, it was really 173 00:09:19,670 --> 00:09:23,420 Speaker 4: like people that came from broken homes, people whose fathers 174 00:09:23,460 --> 00:09:26,099 Speaker 4: had left or whose parents had kicked them out because, 175 00:09:26,140 --> 00:09:28,599 Speaker 4: you know, maybe they got into a little bit of 176 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 4: trouble or were hanging out with the wrong people. 177 00:09:30,460 --> 00:09:35,229 Speaker 2: And I think it really was just this like, I 178 00:09:35,290 --> 00:09:37,290 Speaker 2: love you. I see you. You're beautiful. 179 00:09:37,309 --> 00:09:39,949 Speaker 4: I know I kind of said that earlier, but I 180 00:09:40,050 --> 00:09:43,510 Speaker 4: do think you know, come be here, come be with me, 181 00:09:43,590 --> 00:09:44,839 Speaker 4: come be a part of my family. 182 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 2: Like, I think people that not come from. 183 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,819 Speaker 4: Broken homes necessarily, but I think everybody to an extent 184 00:09:51,900 --> 00:09:55,090 Speaker 4: wants to feel seen and chosen and loved. 185 00:09:55,230 --> 00:09:58,330 Speaker 2: And like, especially if you don't have that paternal love 186 00:09:58,350 --> 00:09:58,730 Speaker 2: from your. 187 00:09:58,630 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 4: Parents, you know, you are seeking that out. 188 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 2: And if somebody says like, come be a part of 189 00:10:05,750 --> 00:10:07,910 Speaker 2: my family, come live with me, I'll take care of you. 190 00:10:07,929 --> 00:10:12,370 Speaker 3: And the entire culture at the time was saying like, 191 00:10:13,610 --> 00:10:15,230 Speaker 3: tune in, turn on, drop out. 192 00:10:15,850 --> 00:10:16,750 Speaker 1: Is that, did I say that right? 193 00:10:17,220 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 3: You know, that idea of the establishment is wrong about everything. 194 00:10:21,940 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: Vietnam is a disaster. 195 00:10:23,420 --> 00:10:28,020 Speaker 3: You know, and Squeaky Fromm famously keep like that, that 196 00:10:28,140 --> 00:10:31,150 Speaker 3: clip of her holding the gun and saying he stole 197 00:10:31,210 --> 00:10:34,330 Speaker 3: us from our parents and gave us back to ourselves. 198 00:10:35,510 --> 00:10:40,490 Speaker 3: And it's like, it's so terrifying considering what we know 199 00:10:40,630 --> 00:10:42,610 Speaker 3: actually happened. 200 00:10:43,030 --> 00:10:43,130 Speaker 2: Yeah. 201 00:10:43,150 --> 00:10:43,270 Speaker 1: Yeah. 202 00:10:43,740 --> 00:10:48,020 Speaker 2: And yeah, what did happen? Yeah, it was that time. 203 00:10:48,140 --> 00:10:51,580 Speaker 2: It was summer of love. And just, yeah, your parents 204 00:10:51,620 --> 00:10:54,460 Speaker 2: don't know anything. They're strict. They're rigid. They're 50s. 205 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,620 Speaker 4: The way that they grew up is not how we 206 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,630 Speaker 4: want to be. We've seen the light. We're seeing the 207 00:11:00,670 --> 00:11:01,030 Speaker 4: world for. 208 00:11:01,110 --> 00:11:01,590 Speaker 2: What it is. 209 00:11:01,630 --> 00:11:05,010 Speaker 4: We love each other. That was such an element. And 210 00:11:05,050 --> 00:11:06,710 Speaker 4: so it's like you feel found. 211 00:11:06,929 --> 00:11:10,670 Speaker 3: And Leslie in particular, she had a somewhat more kind 212 00:11:10,710 --> 00:11:13,130 Speaker 3: of solid family life. right? 213 00:11:13,290 --> 00:11:15,490 Speaker 1: And she just, she's spoken. 214 00:11:15,809 --> 00:11:20,230 Speaker 3: I'm like fascinated by her because, and she was just 215 00:11:20,410 --> 00:11:25,270 Speaker 3: recently released from prison. But when she talks, she talks 216 00:11:25,370 --> 00:11:30,230 Speaker 3: about how she sort of wanted something bigger than what 217 00:11:30,290 --> 00:11:31,730 Speaker 3: girls were allowed to be. 218 00:11:31,590 --> 00:11:32,110 Speaker 1: At the time. 219 00:11:32,130 --> 00:11:35,030 Speaker 3: Like, can you talk about that of what you learned 220 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:35,579 Speaker 3: about her? 221 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 222 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 4: Um, I, um, found such like a love for Leslie 223 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:48,110 Speaker 4: and who she was in her, like she's from Monrovia, um, California, 224 00:11:48,150 --> 00:11:51,110 Speaker 4: which is like right outside Los Angeles. Uh, she was 225 00:11:51,150 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 4: a prom queen, like just a pretty normal girl, but 226 00:11:57,740 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 4: wanted more. And, um, I think I'm like trying to 227 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,890 Speaker 4: think of like what I, um, learn about. I, the, 228 00:12:07,010 --> 00:12:09,550 Speaker 4: the big thing for me that I remember is that my, um, 229 00:12:09,830 --> 00:12:11,870 Speaker 4: college boyfriend at the time who I was dating, uh, 230 00:12:11,950 --> 00:12:12,850 Speaker 4: his mom went to. 231 00:12:12,790 --> 00:12:14,770 Speaker 2: School with Leslie and was friends with her little sister. 232 00:12:14,790 --> 00:12:18,090 Speaker 4: So I know, so I like, I was like, what? 233 00:12:18,110 --> 00:12:21,590 Speaker 4: So when I got the role, Claudia was like, Oh, I, 234 00:12:21,790 --> 00:12:22,770 Speaker 4: I knew Leslie. 235 00:12:22,809 --> 00:12:25,510 Speaker 2: I knew the Van Houten's like, it was so nice. 236 00:12:25,530 --> 00:12:26,250 Speaker 2: She was so normal. 237 00:12:26,270 --> 00:12:27,829 Speaker 4: She was like, I didn't hang out with her as 238 00:12:27,850 --> 00:12:30,059 Speaker 4: much because I was friends with her sister, but Um, 239 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,100 Speaker 4: she was always, she was so pretty and she was 240 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:33,819 Speaker 4: so nice and she was so sweet. 241 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:34,660 Speaker 1: Oh my God. 242 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:36,739 Speaker 3: This is like, he was such a great neighbor and 243 00:12:37,340 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 3: you know, he turned into a serial killer. 244 00:12:40,740 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think, I mean, with Leslie, it's, it's 245 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 2: hard because she always says that she didn't actually participate 246 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,900 Speaker 2: in hurting anybody at the LaBianca's and she, she famously 247 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 2: wasn't at the Tate murders. 248 00:12:56,610 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 4: So she wasn't a part of that, but she went 249 00:12:58,179 --> 00:13:00,949 Speaker 4: the next night. And, you know, she claims that she 250 00:13:01,330 --> 00:13:02,390 Speaker 4: it's like so gruesome. 251 00:13:02,429 --> 00:13:02,670 Speaker 2: Yes. 252 00:13:02,750 --> 00:13:05,069 Speaker 1: No, please. It's OK. That's on here. 253 00:13:05,670 --> 00:13:08,410 Speaker 2: But she stabbed, you know, postmortem. And it was mainly 254 00:13:08,429 --> 00:13:11,290 Speaker 2: because Tex told her everybody has to get their hands dirty. 255 00:13:11,370 --> 00:13:15,410 Speaker 2: That was Charlie's orders. So she and she's always stuck 256 00:13:15,470 --> 00:13:16,490 Speaker 2: to that and claimed that. 257 00:13:17,470 --> 00:13:22,010 Speaker 3: So she right. She's claiming that they were already dead. 258 00:13:22,270 --> 00:13:22,449 Speaker 1: Yeah. 259 00:13:22,510 --> 00:13:24,710 Speaker 4: She didn't kill anyone and she didn't participate in the 260 00:13:24,730 --> 00:13:29,550 Speaker 4: killing because it was like too much for her. But 261 00:13:29,610 --> 00:13:34,870 Speaker 4: that she had to stab one or two. 262 00:13:35,090 --> 00:13:40,970 Speaker 3: And we should say this is this incredibly random killing, right? 263 00:13:41,050 --> 00:13:43,770 Speaker 1: Like, why were these people chosen? Why was this particular 264 00:13:43,809 --> 00:13:44,490 Speaker 1: house chosen? 265 00:13:44,510 --> 00:13:50,620 Speaker 4: Yeah, the LaBiancas were chosen mainly because I think they 266 00:13:50,660 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 4: wanted to try to frame it so it looked like 267 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:59,390 Speaker 4: the Black Panthers were worked trying to, you know, incite 268 00:13:59,429 --> 00:14:03,190 Speaker 4: a race war. And they had done the Tate murders 269 00:14:03,250 --> 00:14:05,010 Speaker 4: the night before. 270 00:14:05,470 --> 00:14:07,470 Speaker 2: I want to say it was the night before. And 271 00:14:08,890 --> 00:14:10,579 Speaker 2: they wanted to make it seem like it was this 272 00:14:10,650 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 2: other thing and not them. And yeah, it was just 273 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,140 Speaker 2: a totally, they went and they found a random house 274 00:14:17,220 --> 00:14:22,370 Speaker 2: in Louisville as they drove around and they said that one. God. 275 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:22,860 Speaker 2: I know. 276 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: It's just, it's so terrifying. 277 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 3: Something else that I watched last night because I may 278 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,300 Speaker 3: or may not have been up to like one watching 279 00:14:45,540 --> 00:14:46,220 Speaker 3: these things. 280 00:14:46,900 --> 00:14:49,540 Speaker 1: But I watched your movie over the weekend. 281 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 3: But then I was like, oh, you just go down 282 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 3: the rabbit hole with these things. 283 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: But you know that some. 284 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 3: Of these women have deep remorse because they understand what happened. 285 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:04,330 Speaker 1: And some just don't. 286 00:15:04,570 --> 00:15:09,380 Speaker 3: Like Squeaky Fromm just says she's so honored to– have 287 00:15:09,460 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 3: known him. 288 00:15:10,820 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: And I don't understand. 289 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 4: Yeah. 290 00:15:14,420 --> 00:15:15,100 Speaker 2: It's so crazy. 291 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 4: And I mean, squeaky wasn't a part of the murder. 292 00:15:19,140 --> 00:15:21,979 Speaker 4: So I don't know if that clouds her judgment, not 293 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:26,870 Speaker 4: to give too much grace to people that were awful. 294 00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:29,710 Speaker 4: So I don't know if maybe because she doesn't have 295 00:15:30,270 --> 00:15:34,130 Speaker 4: those memories or those. 296 00:15:33,930 --> 00:15:36,750 Speaker 2: Experiences, you're like, you know, they're like, well, that wasn't 297 00:15:36,790 --> 00:15:40,290 Speaker 2: my experience. in today's world. 298 00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 4: And that's what I would imagine, like, someone that could say. 299 00:15:43,550 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 2: But it's so crazy. 300 00:15:47,900 --> 00:15:51,620 Speaker 3: Yeah, the group, one of the hardest things to understand 301 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 3: is the family, the whole group, preached this love and freedom, 302 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,140 Speaker 3: but all of the members, they were subject to Manson's demands, 303 00:16:01,230 --> 00:16:03,030 Speaker 3: and everything that he. 304 00:16:03,170 --> 00:16:06,870 Speaker 1: Said is what they did. So what was the sort 305 00:16:06,910 --> 00:16:07,510 Speaker 1: of the. 306 00:16:08,940 --> 00:16:13,370 Speaker 3: The clearest example of that contradiction of it's a total 307 00:16:13,430 --> 00:16:16,550 Speaker 3: love and freedom, but you have to do everything that 308 00:16:16,610 --> 00:16:20,310 Speaker 3: I say. I, it's so similar from all the other 309 00:16:20,370 --> 00:16:23,610 Speaker 3: like cults that I've researched or looked at or documentaries 310 00:16:23,650 --> 00:16:24,130 Speaker 3: I've watched. 311 00:16:24,190 --> 00:16:26,460 Speaker 2: Like, you know, I got really into the next CM 312 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:27,220 Speaker 2: case for real. 313 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 3: Don't even, I know I interviewed Sarah Edmondson. She's just 314 00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:36,220 Speaker 3: a phenomenal person. I'm, I'm just wildly impressed with her. 315 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:37,500 Speaker 2: Incredible. 316 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 4: And like, Everything that I've seen of her has been amazing. 317 00:16:41,860 --> 00:16:45,180 Speaker 4: You know, that was such a situation, but it's these 318 00:16:45,220 --> 00:16:48,260 Speaker 4: people who kind of give their full lives to somebody 319 00:16:48,820 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 4: and then they can't go back. So there's fear of, well, 320 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 4: now I've chosen you and this, and I can't go 321 00:16:57,380 --> 00:16:58,780 Speaker 4: back to my family and I can't go back to 322 00:16:58,820 --> 00:17:02,790 Speaker 4: my friends. And so now there's the other aspect of 323 00:17:02,910 --> 00:17:05,430 Speaker 4: not abandonment, but being kicked out and then having nowhere 324 00:17:05,450 --> 00:17:09,610 Speaker 4: to go. It's kind of tribe mentality, right? So it's– 325 00:17:10,170 --> 00:17:12,150 Speaker 4: that's where he gets you. It's like he lures you in. 326 00:17:12,170 --> 00:17:14,810 Speaker 4: He tells you you're loved and you're safe and you 327 00:17:14,830 --> 00:17:16,950 Speaker 4: can be a family here. And then all of a 328 00:17:16,970 --> 00:17:19,860 Speaker 4: sudden it switches to like, well, but if you don't 329 00:17:19,900 --> 00:17:22,379 Speaker 4: do what I say, then you're not a part of 330 00:17:22,420 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 4: my family and you don't love me and you don't 331 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 4: care for me the way that you've said you did. 332 00:17:26,140 --> 00:17:29,140 Speaker 2: And so you can get out and no one will 333 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,619 Speaker 2: have you or take you now. So that's kind of 334 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:38,570 Speaker 2: where all of those– It was similar with Jonestown. Like, 335 00:17:39,380 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of that thing of like you 336 00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:47,780 Speaker 2: get lured in under love and equality and we're all 337 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 2: going to be together. 338 00:17:48,540 --> 00:17:51,139 Speaker 4: And I see you and you're going to do such 339 00:17:51,180 --> 00:17:53,740 Speaker 4: great things and we're going to change the world. Because 340 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 4: that was also Charlie Manson's whole thing was he was like, 341 00:17:56,790 --> 00:17:57,810 Speaker 4: we're going to change the world. 342 00:17:58,030 --> 00:18:00,169 Speaker 2: I see what's coming. I see the race war. I 343 00:18:00,230 --> 00:18:03,629 Speaker 2: see the– he went on like environmental tirades like later 344 00:18:03,750 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 2: on in life when he was in prison. Yeah. And, 345 00:18:06,380 --> 00:18:07,730 Speaker 2: you know, we're going to be a part of it. 346 00:18:07,740 --> 00:18:09,350 Speaker 2: We're going to start it. We're going to help it. 347 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:09,990 Speaker 2: We're going to. 348 00:18:10,670 --> 00:18:12,390 Speaker 4: Come at, where did they, they found them in like 349 00:18:12,430 --> 00:18:15,229 Speaker 4: Death Valley in a bunker. And the whole thing was 350 00:18:15,250 --> 00:18:17,150 Speaker 4: that like the race war was going to happen. 351 00:18:17,170 --> 00:18:19,550 Speaker 2: And then they were going. 352 00:18:19,430 --> 00:18:21,830 Speaker 1: To rise from the bunker. 353 00:18:22,390 --> 00:18:23,750 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 354 00:18:24,390 --> 00:18:26,649 Speaker 4: And it's kind of like, and then we'll come and 355 00:18:26,670 --> 00:18:29,050 Speaker 4: we'll fix everything and we'll be the light and we'll 356 00:18:29,090 --> 00:18:34,550 Speaker 4: be the way. And you do just kind of believe 357 00:18:34,970 --> 00:18:36,430 Speaker 4: that when you're, Right. 358 00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:36,850 Speaker 2: In it. 359 00:18:37,369 --> 00:18:37,669 Speaker 3: Yeah. 360 00:18:39,150 --> 00:18:41,220 Speaker 4: And then once you're so far in it, you can't, like, 361 00:18:41,300 --> 00:18:43,060 Speaker 4: even when you start having doubts, because that was the 362 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,180 Speaker 4: thing with Linda Kasabian, right? 363 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: Yes. 364 00:18:45,580 --> 00:18:48,340 Speaker 4: She was the girl that was kind of like, I 365 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,180 Speaker 4: don't like this. But they had her kid and they 366 00:18:52,220 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 4: had her and she didn't have anyone to go to 367 00:18:55,619 --> 00:18:56,830 Speaker 4: and was kind of like, I don't know what to 368 00:18:56,890 --> 00:18:59,990 Speaker 4: do because I can't leave or they're going to come 369 00:19:00,010 --> 00:19:01,389 Speaker 4: kill me if I leave. 370 00:19:01,410 --> 00:19:06,419 Speaker 3: Right. So the movie is told through Linda Kasabian's essentially 371 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:11,459 Speaker 3: her story. So did you, how did the women relate 372 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 3: to one another in your research? Did the supposed sisterhood 373 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 3: make it harder for anyone to challenge Manson or leave? Like, 374 00:19:19,380 --> 00:19:23,110 Speaker 3: was there a jealousy aspect or a, you know, cause 375 00:19:23,130 --> 00:19:26,619 Speaker 3: all these things like I, I, this, these, these kinds of, 376 00:19:27,410 --> 00:19:31,810 Speaker 3: it really gets me this misogyny disguised as I. 377 00:19:33,369 --> 00:19:34,490 Speaker 1: Love women, you know? 378 00:19:35,020 --> 00:19:38,820 Speaker 3: It's because then inherently there's something in there where it 379 00:19:38,859 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 3: creates this jealousy of the women. 380 00:19:40,740 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: And like, can you talk about that a little bit? 381 00:19:43,020 --> 00:19:46,290 Speaker 2: Yeah, I absolutely think that that is what was happening. 382 00:19:46,390 --> 00:19:47,490 Speaker 2: I mean, I know that he. 383 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,900 Speaker 4: Had a very special relationship with Susan Atkins. I think 384 00:19:52,940 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 4: like that was kind of his number one, at least. 385 00:19:55,980 --> 00:19:58,020 Speaker 4: And that's the way that like our movie portrayed it. Um, 386 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,090 Speaker 4: research that I did, that was also what I found. Um, 387 00:20:02,690 --> 00:20:07,530 Speaker 4: and I think that there was jealousy in between, between 388 00:20:07,570 --> 00:20:07,850 Speaker 4: the girls. 389 00:20:07,910 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Um, put on with a fakeness of I'm happy 390 00:20:13,460 --> 00:20:20,490 Speaker 2: to share. There was a scene that got cut where I, 391 00:20:20,869 --> 00:20:24,190 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I think maybe Susan does something with Bobby 392 00:20:24,369 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 2: and Bobby and Leslie were, you know, together in the, 393 00:20:28,260 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 2: in real life and in the, at the, in the movie. 394 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 4: And it was kind of like a power play. Like I, 395 00:20:34,420 --> 00:20:37,619 Speaker 4: Susan tried to get with Bobby to piss Leslie off 396 00:20:37,660 --> 00:20:40,890 Speaker 4: because Leslie was I think had done something with Charlie 397 00:20:40,930 --> 00:20:44,690 Speaker 4: or Charlie chose Leslie to do something, not even sexually, 398 00:20:44,730 --> 00:20:47,659 Speaker 4: but just like praised her, you know, in a, in 399 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,460 Speaker 4: a group setting or something. And so there was kind 400 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,660 Speaker 4: of this jealousy and this, like, I'm going to be. 401 00:20:53,580 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 2: The one in good graces. So I'm going to sneak 402 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 2: around this way. 403 00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 4: So that then like, I get to be like, Oh, 404 00:20:59,780 --> 00:21:02,910 Speaker 4: but look at Charlie. Cause they all wanted his affection. 405 00:21:02,930 --> 00:21:04,590 Speaker 4: And that's the other thing with like, you know, there 406 00:21:04,609 --> 00:21:05,290 Speaker 4: were guys there. 407 00:21:05,350 --> 00:21:05,609 Speaker 2: Sure. 408 00:21:05,670 --> 00:21:09,390 Speaker 4: But, He was the leader, so you naturally wanted his 409 00:21:09,410 --> 00:21:11,090 Speaker 4: praise and affection and attention. 410 00:21:11,210 --> 00:21:13,710 Speaker 3: And we should say Bobby, you're talking about is Bobby Beausoleil, 411 00:21:13,750 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 3: who was really kind of one of the most violent, diabolical. 412 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,500 Speaker 1: Members of this cult. 413 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,540 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I definitely think that there were elements of 414 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 2: that in there. 415 00:21:28,740 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 3: And there's a really upsetting scene in the movie where 416 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:37,150 Speaker 3: someone comes to buy the car that they've... Stolen. Right. 417 00:21:37,369 --> 00:21:42,619 Speaker 3: And Charlie basically sells off one of the girls and says, 418 00:21:43,020 --> 00:21:44,590 Speaker 3: this is what you get with it. 419 00:21:44,660 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: Like, can you explain that scene? 420 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:47,300 Speaker 2: Yes. 421 00:21:47,580 --> 00:21:50,050 Speaker 4: There's basically like a, you have to go and you 422 00:21:50,090 --> 00:21:51,929 Speaker 4: have to do this because. 423 00:21:52,450 --> 00:21:52,590 Speaker 2: Right. 424 00:21:52,609 --> 00:21:55,409 Speaker 1: You have to go have sex with this random older man. 425 00:21:56,010 --> 00:21:57,390 Speaker 1: So it, Yeah. 426 00:21:57,410 --> 00:22:00,109 Speaker 4: And he says, I don't want to, like, I love you. 427 00:22:00,670 --> 00:22:02,490 Speaker 4: And he's like, well, this is how you prove your 428 00:22:02,510 --> 00:22:03,610 Speaker 4: love to me. Right. 429 00:22:03,670 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 3: He presented it like you have to have sex with 430 00:22:06,390 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 3: him as a sort of a bonus to the deal 431 00:22:08,980 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 3: or something. 432 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Cause yeah, he wanted, I think maybe they 433 00:22:15,220 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 2: didn't have enough money. 434 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:17,770 Speaker 4: And so it was like, okay, well then I'll take 435 00:22:18,430 --> 00:22:20,250 Speaker 4: what you have and I'll take that girl. 436 00:22:20,609 --> 00:22:23,310 Speaker 2: And, um, they were like, great. 437 00:22:23,369 --> 00:22:23,890 Speaker 4: You have to go. 438 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,820 Speaker 2: You have to go do that. 439 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: It's all so upsetting. I know. 440 00:22:31,980 --> 00:22:38,270 Speaker 3: So Manson took the group, including Leslie, to the LaBianca home. 441 00:22:38,650 --> 00:22:42,990 Speaker 3: He ties up the couple and then left and left 442 00:22:43,030 --> 00:22:46,650 Speaker 3: the others to kill them. Did you learn anything about 443 00:22:46,750 --> 00:22:50,390 Speaker 3: Leslie's state of mind during that trip? 444 00:22:50,990 --> 00:22:51,310 Speaker 2: Yeah. 445 00:22:51,369 --> 00:22:53,490 Speaker 4: I mean, I think from what I remember doing the 446 00:22:53,510 --> 00:22:56,730 Speaker 4: research of, she was– they were all on LSD or 447 00:22:57,970 --> 00:23:00,260 Speaker 4: at least that's what she said. 448 00:23:00,900 --> 00:23:03,780 Speaker 2: So she was absolutely high. 449 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,060 Speaker 4: And I, I do know that I think she, she 450 00:23:08,180 --> 00:23:13,860 Speaker 4: really want, she wanted to go because obviously the tape 451 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,590 Speaker 4: murders had happened the night before and they all watched 452 00:23:16,630 --> 00:23:19,470 Speaker 4: that on the news and saw the papers and it 453 00:23:22,150 --> 00:23:25,340 Speaker 4: feels sick to say like we're, proud of themselves and 454 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 4: had gel, especially because like they were proud of themselves 455 00:23:29,859 --> 00:23:32,090 Speaker 4: for the fact that like it was movie stars and 456 00:23:32,109 --> 00:23:34,250 Speaker 4: it made the news and it was this huge thing. 457 00:23:34,270 --> 00:23:37,050 Speaker 4: Cause a lot of the people at the ranch, like 458 00:23:37,130 --> 00:23:40,369 Speaker 4: I don't think Leslie knew who that they were going 459 00:23:40,410 --> 00:23:41,430 Speaker 4: to the Tate house. 460 00:23:41,450 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 2: Like they didn't know that Sharon, um, be there, which 461 00:23:45,940 --> 00:23:47,179 Speaker 2: is just horrifying. 462 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 4: So I think that, you know, people wanted to go 463 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,730 Speaker 4: and do the next one and they wanted to help because, um, Also, 464 00:23:53,770 --> 00:23:55,730 Speaker 4: they were told that this was going to be the 465 00:23:55,750 --> 00:24:02,540 Speaker 4: thing that starts Helter Skelter and starts the– not end 466 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:03,379 Speaker 4: of times, but. 467 00:24:14,340 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 3: But we're going to– it's black people are bad, but 468 00:24:18,060 --> 00:24:20,220 Speaker 3: they're going to start the race war. But then we're 469 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 3: going to hide from the race war. And then they're 470 00:24:23,140 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 3: going to kill themselves, but we're going to help do that. 471 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,140 Speaker 3: And then we're going to come back up and over– like, 472 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,179 Speaker 3: it doesn't– it's not a linear plan. 473 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 2: No, no, it's not. It's so crazy and makes literally 474 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,710 Speaker 2: no sense at all. 475 00:24:38,950 --> 00:24:42,570 Speaker 4: And I don't know why that was the thing that 476 00:24:43,070 --> 00:24:46,669 Speaker 4: he was– going with because even there's a scene that 477 00:24:46,850 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 4: we have in the movie where they're at dinner and 478 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 4: he's like oh have you heard the white album have 479 00:24:51,100 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 4: you been listening to the beatles like helter skelter they're 480 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,959 Speaker 4: saying that there's going to be this race war. 481 00:24:55,820 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 2: And this and that and the other guy's like uh 482 00:24:57,700 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 2: i didn't. 483 00:24:58,940 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: I didn't get that that's not what i heard not 484 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:01,820 Speaker 1: what i heard. 485 00:25:01,780 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 2: On that song so it is kind of weird how he. 486 00:25:06,460 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 4: Got that outside of just he just wanted to inside 487 00:25:08,540 --> 00:25:09,940 Speaker 4: as much violence as possible which. 488 00:25:09,869 --> 00:25:12,510 Speaker 2: Is really just right. 489 00:25:12,030 --> 00:25:15,310 Speaker 4: Yeah i think again they all believed in the message. 490 00:25:15,350 --> 00:25:17,830 Speaker 4: They all believed in what he was saying. They believed 491 00:25:17,930 --> 00:25:20,070 Speaker 4: that they had to start this thing that was then 492 00:25:20,109 --> 00:25:23,810 Speaker 4: going to end the world and then have, they were 493 00:25:23,830 --> 00:25:24,490 Speaker 4: going to come back. 494 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 3: It really is chilling also to see, you know, some 495 00:25:28,700 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 3: of the, the court proceedings. And I mean, I, seeing 496 00:25:33,859 --> 00:25:38,719 Speaker 3: these women, you know, behaving, they'd be in flowery dresses 497 00:25:39,660 --> 00:25:43,290 Speaker 3: and singing songs. And I think it was Leslie or 498 00:25:43,310 --> 00:25:46,609 Speaker 3: maybe it was, Diane who said that I think it 499 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:51,130 Speaker 3: was Leslie that said they would meet with Charlie every 500 00:25:51,150 --> 00:25:54,270 Speaker 3: day before which also I'm like why were they allowed 501 00:25:54,450 --> 00:25:58,010 Speaker 3: to meet with him when they were all in jail 502 00:25:58,070 --> 00:26:02,610 Speaker 3: and on trial but I guess things have changed but 503 00:26:02,630 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 3: that he would orchestrate everything like today you're going to 504 00:26:06,540 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 3: stand in front of them and you're going to raise 505 00:26:08,540 --> 00:26:11,630 Speaker 3: your hands in this certain symbol and Next day where 506 00:26:11,650 --> 00:26:14,710 Speaker 3: you're going to all shave your heads. And it really 507 00:26:14,820 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 3: created this chaos in the courtroom. It was such a 508 00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 3: spectacle of, you know, the Looney Tunes people are running 509 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 3: the mental hospital. 510 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 511 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 4: Well, and it was like, again, these people that had 512 00:26:32,220 --> 00:26:38,260 Speaker 4: done such heinous, awful crimes that the world saw. 513 00:26:38,700 --> 00:26:44,469 Speaker 2: Just acting so... silly and singing and funny. 514 00:26:44,790 --> 00:26:49,730 Speaker 4: And these girls, again, all seemed fairly normal, at least 515 00:26:49,810 --> 00:26:52,750 Speaker 4: from looks wise until they showed up with swastikas carved 516 00:26:52,810 --> 00:26:55,010 Speaker 4: in their heads and shaved their heads. 517 00:26:55,250 --> 00:26:58,970 Speaker 2: And, but it, it was like, people were like, what's happened? 518 00:26:58,990 --> 00:27:00,910 Speaker 2: Because it was so insane. 519 00:27:00,950 --> 00:27:03,620 Speaker 4: And it was, it was like people hospital just every 520 00:27:03,650 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 4: day doing a new thing, um, which, you know, it was, entertaining, 521 00:27:09,100 --> 00:27:10,740 Speaker 4: I guess to some, cause it was like, what. 522 00:27:10,660 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 2: Are they going to do next? These crazy people that 523 00:27:13,100 --> 00:27:13,939 Speaker 2: did these awful things. 524 00:27:15,369 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 4: And he would like speak in tongues on when he 525 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,550 Speaker 4: was on trial and like leash out of his seat. 526 00:27:21,590 --> 00:27:22,990 Speaker 2: Like it was crazy. 527 00:27:23,109 --> 00:27:25,310 Speaker 1: I mean, all those things are so similar. 528 00:27:25,330 --> 00:27:27,909 Speaker 3: It makes me think of NXIVM again, hit the followers 529 00:27:27,970 --> 00:27:31,190 Speaker 3: of Keith Vignery who were outside of the prison dancing 530 00:27:31,290 --> 00:27:33,010 Speaker 3: and singing and. 531 00:27:35,490 --> 00:27:38,790 Speaker 4: Like, Very similar to, like, what Sweetie Sama's doing outside 532 00:27:38,810 --> 00:27:41,270 Speaker 4: of the courthouse. Because she would sit outside and she 533 00:27:41,310 --> 00:27:44,169 Speaker 4: would say, you know, Charlie's innocent and you guys don't 534 00:27:44,190 --> 00:27:45,050 Speaker 4: know what's coming. 535 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,300 Speaker 2: And kind of displays him from outside the courthouse. And 536 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 2: they would all do that. 537 00:27:50,180 --> 00:27:52,859 Speaker 4: And it's very similar. I actually never made that connection. 538 00:27:52,900 --> 00:27:54,830 Speaker 4: That's very similar to what was happening with. 539 00:27:54,740 --> 00:27:55,490 Speaker 1: Keith and Erie. 540 00:27:55,510 --> 00:27:55,770 Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. 541 00:28:10,609 --> 00:28:13,669 Speaker 3: So you said that you considered reaching out to Leslie, 542 00:28:13,890 --> 00:28:17,330 Speaker 3: but decided that it wasn't appropriate. Can you say why? 543 00:28:17,390 --> 00:28:19,270 Speaker 3: And then what would you have asked her if you 544 00:28:19,310 --> 00:28:19,969 Speaker 3: had spoken to her? 545 00:28:19,990 --> 00:28:21,390 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. 546 00:28:21,650 --> 00:28:24,260 Speaker 4: Well, I think from everything that I had read that 547 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 4: I had learned about Leslie, recent interviews, or as recent as. 548 00:28:28,660 --> 00:28:33,100 Speaker 2: I could get at the time, she really didn't want 549 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,740 Speaker 2: to talk about it. She really was trying to move 550 00:28:35,780 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 2: forward with her life in prison as best she could. 551 00:28:38,740 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 2: And that's the reason why she ended up getting released. 552 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 2: I think for her knowing like that. 553 00:28:43,820 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 4: Someone's doing a movie and not glamorizing it because we 554 00:28:47,740 --> 00:28:51,380 Speaker 4: weren't doing that. But I think it's just, it's a 555 00:28:51,580 --> 00:28:54,940 Speaker 4: part of her life that she doesn't want to remember 556 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:56,420 Speaker 4: and want to dive into. 557 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,500 Speaker 2: And even though I would have loved to have talked. 558 00:28:59,270 --> 00:29:01,890 Speaker 4: To her and gotten to know her and her story 559 00:29:01,930 --> 00:29:04,350 Speaker 4: and who she is and who she was a little 560 00:29:04,370 --> 00:29:07,490 Speaker 4: bit more than what I knew just from what we 561 00:29:07,530 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 4: all know. It just didn't, feel right to talk to 562 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 4: her and be like I'm playing you in a movie 563 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 4: like it just felt a little I don't know if 564 00:29:19,860 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 4: sad is the right word or just because gross isn't 565 00:29:23,260 --> 00:29:26,050 Speaker 4: the right word either because I really would have loved 566 00:29:26,070 --> 00:29:28,710 Speaker 4: to have talked to her and gotten like the best 567 00:29:28,730 --> 00:29:30,730 Speaker 4: of intentions to be like I want to play you 568 00:29:30,750 --> 00:29:33,350 Speaker 4: honorably I want to know who you are. 569 00:29:33,290 --> 00:29:39,930 Speaker 3: Well it's respecting her wishes essentially if she doesn't want 570 00:29:40,030 --> 00:29:41,590 Speaker 3: to talk about it, you know. 571 00:29:42,410 --> 00:29:44,890 Speaker 2: So, you know, I just, yeah, I wanted to respect 572 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:45,950 Speaker 2: her in that way. 573 00:29:45,970 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 4: And the fact that, you know, she's trying to, she 574 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,140 Speaker 4: was trying to move forward as best she could with 575 00:29:51,180 --> 00:29:54,180 Speaker 4: her life and make amends and not relive something that's, 576 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 4: you know, such a terrible, dark thing for her. But 577 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:03,090 Speaker 4: I knew Mike and Chris, Mike Chesler and Chris Alberghini, 578 00:30:03,150 --> 00:30:06,430 Speaker 4: who are the showrunners on Awkward, they were actually friends 579 00:30:06,550 --> 00:30:07,370 Speaker 4: with Leslie. 580 00:30:07,430 --> 00:30:08,590 Speaker 1: Oh, you're kidding. 581 00:30:08,610 --> 00:30:12,890 Speaker 4: No, yeah, because they saw the Deadline article and we 582 00:30:12,910 --> 00:30:16,820 Speaker 4: were shooting the final, I think, episode of Awkward ever 583 00:30:17,540 --> 00:30:18,740 Speaker 4: when I was doing both. 584 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:19,740 Speaker 2: At the same time, actually. 585 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,860 Speaker 1: Talk about opposing projects. 586 00:30:25,450 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 2: I know. 587 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,780 Speaker 4: Well, and what's so funny and random is that one 588 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,940 Speaker 4: of the days we were shooting at the same place. 589 00:30:30,980 --> 00:30:35,020 Speaker 4: We were both shooting at Calamigos Ranch. So like literally 590 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 4: I showed up for work one day for Awkward, I think. 591 00:30:37,940 --> 00:30:40,090 Speaker 4: And I saw the Manson trailers. 592 00:30:40,010 --> 00:30:43,330 Speaker 2: Getting pulled out. Oh, wow. Which was so interesting. 593 00:30:43,490 --> 00:30:45,690 Speaker 4: And my hair was a whole thing because they wanted 594 00:30:45,710 --> 00:30:47,530 Speaker 4: to dye it brown. And I was like, you can't 595 00:30:47,550 --> 00:30:47,990 Speaker 4: do that. 596 00:30:48,010 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 2: Right. You should. 597 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,530 Speaker 4: I show where I'm notoriously blonde, but so I was 598 00:30:53,870 --> 00:30:55,630 Speaker 4: doing those things at the same time. And when the 599 00:30:55,670 --> 00:30:58,830 Speaker 4: deadline article came out, Chris and Mike approached me and 600 00:30:58,850 --> 00:31:00,910 Speaker 4: they were like, oh my gosh, you're, you're playing. We 601 00:31:00,930 --> 00:31:04,330 Speaker 4: know her, we know her and Pat. And I can't remember, 602 00:31:04,350 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 4: there were friends with John Waters befriended Leslie and Pat. 603 00:31:09,700 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 4: And I think they met her that way and they 604 00:31:13,820 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 4: would go and they would visit her and write her 605 00:31:16,460 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 4: letters and notes. 606 00:31:17,510 --> 00:31:20,110 Speaker 2: And so I got a lot of, Yeah. 607 00:31:20,170 --> 00:31:21,060 Speaker 1: What did they say? 608 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,260 Speaker 4: They just said that, you know, they said she was 609 00:31:23,300 --> 00:31:26,780 Speaker 4: the nicest person and, um, they were kind of like, 610 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,620 Speaker 4: it's a shame that she can't get out and probably won't. 611 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 4: Cause this was in 2015. Um, because she, they were like, 612 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:35,590 Speaker 4: she really is just like the loveliest person. 613 00:31:35,650 --> 00:31:37,590 Speaker 2: And, you know, she didn't. 614 00:31:37,610 --> 00:31:40,710 Speaker 4: Actually partake in the killing part of it. And I'm like, well, 615 00:31:40,870 --> 00:31:46,430 Speaker 4: we don't know that, but okay. Um, And they just 616 00:31:46,450 --> 00:31:48,590 Speaker 4: said that she was so nice and so sweet and 617 00:31:48,650 --> 00:31:52,300 Speaker 4: so lovely and kind and, you know, and that like 618 00:31:52,620 --> 00:31:56,820 Speaker 4: Pat felt really, Pat felt really bad, Patricia. 619 00:31:58,780 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 2: And, but that they were really nice. 620 00:32:00,580 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 621 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,390 Speaker 1: She, Patricia Cranwinkle has spoken a lot about it. 622 00:32:05,370 --> 00:32:10,170 Speaker 3: So the, the film implies much of the violence, which 623 00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:14,070 Speaker 3: I appreciate rather than graphically showing it. Was there a 624 00:32:14,090 --> 00:32:17,780 Speaker 3: scene that you thought became more disturbing because of what 625 00:32:17,820 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 3: the viewers did not see? 626 00:32:19,140 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 4: I mean, anything that has to do with Sharon Tate 627 00:32:22,980 --> 00:32:29,290 Speaker 4: is horrifying. And I do think you see or you 628 00:32:29,380 --> 00:32:33,270 Speaker 4: hear her say, don't kill my baby. 629 00:32:33,290 --> 00:32:34,570 Speaker 1: You hear her, yeah. 630 00:32:35,490 --> 00:32:37,030 Speaker 2: You hear her, and. 631 00:32:36,990 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 4: That's always horrific. Like, reading it is... horrifying, hearing it, 632 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 4: seeing it in any. 633 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:46,700 Speaker 1: And she was pregnant. 634 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,350 Speaker 3: That's, that's what she means by my baby for people 635 00:32:50,380 --> 00:32:51,070 Speaker 3: that don't know. 636 00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:51,490 Speaker 1: Yeah. 637 00:32:52,690 --> 00:32:53,230 Speaker 2: Might not know that. 638 00:32:53,410 --> 00:32:54,010 Speaker 1: Um, yes. 639 00:32:54,130 --> 00:32:54,330 Speaker 3: Yeah. 640 00:32:54,370 --> 00:32:57,130 Speaker 4: She was like nine months. I mean, she was basically 641 00:32:57,170 --> 00:33:01,750 Speaker 4: like weeks away from giving birth. Um, and you know, 642 00:33:01,790 --> 00:33:05,070 Speaker 4: they killed her, they cut open her stomach and the 643 00:33:05,130 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 4: baby was like so horrific and just to think of, 644 00:33:10,140 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 4: so like if you, if you know what happened, just 645 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 4: even hearing it is just chill. 646 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 2: Like it's chilling. It's chilling. 647 00:33:17,060 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's always the, that line there. 648 00:33:20,580 --> 00:33:23,300 Speaker 3: I think there are moments when we, it's important to 649 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:28,110 Speaker 3: be really confronted with an image of something. And then 650 00:33:29,190 --> 00:33:32,770 Speaker 3: there are many times when it is important to not 651 00:33:32,890 --> 00:33:35,990 Speaker 3: do that. And oftentimes I feel like that is that 652 00:33:36,230 --> 00:33:43,420 Speaker 3: fine line of exploitation and kind of trying to communicate 653 00:33:43,810 --> 00:33:47,530 Speaker 3: human issues. And yeah. 654 00:33:47,930 --> 00:33:51,130 Speaker 2: Well, cause I mean, she was a very real person. 655 00:33:51,170 --> 00:33:56,050 Speaker 4: These were very real people with very real families that 656 00:33:56,950 --> 00:33:59,450 Speaker 4: had to live this. And every time there's a new 657 00:33:59,490 --> 00:34:02,060 Speaker 4: movie and every time there's a new story, like the 658 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:03,460 Speaker 4: family has to go through it again. They have to 659 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:08,790 Speaker 4: be reminded as well as the public. And it's just, it's, yeah, 660 00:34:08,830 --> 00:34:12,390 Speaker 4: it's something that's really, really hard. And I think having 661 00:34:12,410 --> 00:34:15,350 Speaker 4: the human aspect of like, we don't need to show this. 662 00:34:15,390 --> 00:34:18,710 Speaker 4: We don't need to exploit this person's very real disturbed, 663 00:34:19,090 --> 00:34:19,790 Speaker 4: disturbing pain. 664 00:34:19,830 --> 00:34:21,750 Speaker 2: Like it's, you know, it's horrible. 665 00:34:22,070 --> 00:34:22,630 Speaker 1: Right. 666 00:34:22,830 --> 00:34:26,830 Speaker 3: And it is, you know, telling these, these stories in 667 00:34:26,870 --> 00:34:29,770 Speaker 3: a narrative way is, I'd say this all the time 668 00:34:30,010 --> 00:34:34,850 Speaker 3: is important in a, in an informative sort of a way. 669 00:34:35,070 --> 00:34:38,210 Speaker 3: And so to that end, like after everything that you learned, 670 00:34:38,780 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 3: And after Leslie's release, what do you most want younger 671 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:49,690 Speaker 3: viewers to understand about charismatic leaders, group pressure, and the 672 00:34:50,150 --> 00:34:54,070 Speaker 3: danger of surrendering, you know, your own personal judgment? 673 00:34:54,890 --> 00:34:55,210 Speaker 1: Wow. 674 00:34:55,850 --> 00:34:56,690 Speaker 2: That's a loaded question. 675 00:34:58,150 --> 00:35:01,219 Speaker 4: It's so hard because I felt this when watching the 676 00:35:01,260 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 4: NXIVM documentaries is like, these people are all searching for 677 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,540 Speaker 4: the same thing, which is love. And it's the same 678 00:35:08,580 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 4: reason why people get into religious cults as well. You know, 679 00:35:12,940 --> 00:35:15,090 Speaker 4: it's like a God shaped hole. It's this hole inside 680 00:35:15,110 --> 00:35:16,810 Speaker 4: of you that you feel. And so you're looking for 681 00:35:16,930 --> 00:35:22,089 Speaker 4: somebody to fill it. And I think it's so much 682 00:35:22,250 --> 00:35:24,350 Speaker 4: easier said than done to be like, you get to 683 00:35:24,370 --> 00:35:26,779 Speaker 4: be the person that fills that because at 19. 684 00:35:26,780 --> 00:35:29,380 Speaker 2: And that's the other thing we have to remember. 685 00:35:29,020 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 4: Is really young when this happened, they were like, 18, 19, 20, 686 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:35,259 Speaker 4: maybe 21. 687 00:35:35,260 --> 00:35:41,259 Speaker 2: Like they were young and impressionable. And you think you 688 00:35:41,300 --> 00:35:43,900 Speaker 2: have so much when you're that age and then you 689 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 2: get older and you realize I actually didn't know anything. 690 00:35:46,739 --> 00:35:49,359 Speaker 2: And I wish I wouldn't have done that because that 691 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 2: wasn't the thing that was going to fill me up. 692 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 2: Because really only you can do that and surrounding yourself 693 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,390 Speaker 2: with good people. And I guess it's really just about 694 00:36:02,550 --> 00:36:05,069 Speaker 2: knowing who you are. 695 00:36:05,090 --> 00:36:08,690 Speaker 4: I hate my high school had a saying that was, uh, 696 00:36:08,710 --> 00:36:10,290 Speaker 4: remember who you are and what you stand for. And 697 00:36:10,330 --> 00:36:11,570 Speaker 4: we had to say it at the end of every. 698 00:36:11,590 --> 00:36:13,750 Speaker 2: Um, all school meeting. 699 00:36:13,850 --> 00:36:16,670 Speaker 4: And it sounds so silly because it was so annoying 700 00:36:16,690 --> 00:36:19,609 Speaker 4: to have to say every Friday, but that is, those 701 00:36:19,630 --> 00:36:21,150 Speaker 4: are the words that are coming to me, which is like, 702 00:36:21,170 --> 00:36:23,259 Speaker 4: remember who you are and what you stand for and 703 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,660 Speaker 4: keep that like at the forefront of your brain, your heart, 704 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 4: your soul. Um, because when you see something going on 705 00:36:32,540 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 4: and you know that it's not right, like you have 706 00:36:37,340 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 4: to be able to overcome the feeling of being. 707 00:36:39,739 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 2: Liked and loved and. 708 00:36:41,500 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: And accepted. 709 00:36:42,260 --> 00:36:43,030 Speaker 3: And yep. 710 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:44,950 Speaker 2: That's the word I was like, appreciated isn't the word 711 00:36:44,969 --> 00:36:46,090 Speaker 2: I'm looking for accepted to. 712 00:36:47,790 --> 00:36:49,850 Speaker 4: Be able to say, no, I'm, I'm, I'm walking away 713 00:36:49,870 --> 00:36:51,609 Speaker 4: and this is wrong. Like you have to be able 714 00:36:51,630 --> 00:36:52,190 Speaker 4: to do that. 715 00:36:52,350 --> 00:36:58,010 Speaker 2: And it's so hard, but just to really like, no, 716 00:36:58,030 --> 00:37:00,219 Speaker 2: to know that that. 717 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:01,190 Speaker 3: Is, advice. 718 00:37:01,370 --> 00:37:01,810 Speaker 2: Yeah. 719 00:37:02,690 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: And that is such a hard, those years. 720 00:37:05,219 --> 00:37:08,859 Speaker 3: I mean, the youngest girl, as I said, Diane was 14, 721 00:37:08,860 --> 00:37:10,459 Speaker 3: which is a whole other, I have a 14 year 722 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 3: old daughter. 723 00:37:10,940 --> 00:37:17,170 Speaker 1: So the thought of that is just absolutely unimaginable to me. 724 00:37:17,190 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 3: But Those years, those teen years, it's just what you said. 725 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,339 Speaker 3: Like you think you know everything, but it's also you 726 00:37:25,820 --> 00:37:29,670 Speaker 3: want to define who you are and you're discovering things 727 00:37:29,770 --> 00:37:34,210 Speaker 3: about the world and you're leaving the constructs of high 728 00:37:34,250 --> 00:37:38,490 Speaker 3: school and growing up. And it's just so important to 729 00:37:39,190 --> 00:37:40,469 Speaker 3: not jump on a bandwagon. 730 00:37:41,050 --> 00:37:42,430 Speaker 1: That's what I would say. 731 00:37:42,450 --> 00:37:42,529 Speaker 2: Yeah. 732 00:37:45,170 --> 00:37:47,870 Speaker 4: And it sounds like, you know, we all hear the 733 00:37:47,890 --> 00:37:50,410 Speaker 4: saying of, like, if your friends jumped off a bridge, 734 00:37:50,430 --> 00:37:51,089 Speaker 4: would you do it? 735 00:37:51,820 --> 00:37:55,620 Speaker 2: And sometimes, like, as a teenager, I was like, no. 736 00:37:55,660 --> 00:37:59,420 Speaker 2: And then other times I was like, yeah, because, like, 737 00:38:00,140 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 2: is there a bunch of, like, you know, you make 738 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,850 Speaker 2: all these other excuses of, like, are we bungee jumping? 739 00:38:04,930 --> 00:38:08,609 Speaker 2: Is there a cord? Like, what are we doing? And 740 00:38:08,710 --> 00:38:12,830 Speaker 2: it's just really, like, yeah, you just have to know 741 00:38:12,850 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 2: to say no. No. 742 00:38:16,140 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 4: And it's so hard and so nuanced because it's something 743 00:38:20,540 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 4: that you learn and you just hope that it doesn't 744 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:24,420 Speaker 4: end up like this. 745 00:38:24,580 --> 00:38:27,219 Speaker 1: And I would also say maybe you don't do drugs. 746 00:38:27,820 --> 00:38:31,950 Speaker 4: And that's a really important one too. Don't do drugs, 747 00:38:33,469 --> 00:38:37,509 Speaker 4: especially like drugs that you don't know and that are 748 00:38:37,550 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 4: coming men on a ranch. Like that's just, you know, yeah. 749 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 4: Cause your brain is so. 750 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:45,140 Speaker 1: Right. It's not fully formed. 751 00:38:46,430 --> 00:38:50,150 Speaker 3: Well, Greer, you are such a treat. You're such a delight. 752 00:38:50,230 --> 00:38:53,030 Speaker 3: I'm so happy to meet you and talk with you. 753 00:38:53,050 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 3: And the movie is called Manson's Lost Girls and it 754 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:58,900 Speaker 3: is streaming online. 755 00:38:59,219 --> 00:39:02,060 Speaker 1: And thank you so much for talking with me. 756 00:39:02,860 --> 00:39:04,919 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. Seriously. This was like such 757 00:39:04,940 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 2: a treat. I, I, I love you and I love, 758 00:39:08,540 --> 00:39:09,259 Speaker 2: I love to shoot. 759 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:10,299 Speaker 1: Yeah. 760 00:39:10,610 --> 00:39:12,750 Speaker 2: And yeah, it's a, it's a good one. 761 00:39:13,310 --> 00:39:13,830 Speaker 1: Thank you.