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Speaker 1: On the Dog Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef invest start

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Speaker 1: changing it with the bec Del cast. Hey Jamie, Hey Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: it's your birthday, So I brought you some hard boiled eggs.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to kiss and then have sex in

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Speaker 1: my bathroom? Um, let's see where things go. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: was a lot to ask. I appreciate. I appreciate. I

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Speaker 1: think people should be a little more direct. Um. And

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Speaker 1: I'm just being clear with my intentions, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I will say like, I just want to make sure

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Speaker 1: that me, like accepting the egg isn't like a metaphor

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Speaker 1: in your eyes. And it's just a validation that I

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Speaker 1: am hungry and and I'm never gonna turn down a

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Speaker 1: free egg. That's so fair, honey, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: turn it out a free I go to any circumstances

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Speaker 1: someone for set sweet. That's like a disgusting free food

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Speaker 1: to offer. Oh, I got I got eggs with the

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Speaker 1: brain recently. Oh I heard a wild story about eggs

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Speaker 1: the other day. Okay, but that's what I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: off pod. Well, you listeners can just wonder what jabel

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Speaker 1: egg story was. The intrigue friend told me a really

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Speaker 1: long story about eggs and it was disgusting, disgusting. Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: I can't wait to hear about it. Well, anyway, this

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Speaker 1: is our podcast in which we should we that past,

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Speaker 1: that past. Oh my gosh, look at us passing the

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Speaker 1: Bectel test on your birthday to have been talking about

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Speaker 1: an egg anecdote because I wasn't specific about the gender

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Speaker 1: of the person who had the egg experience. True, and

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Speaker 1: eggs are feminist icon eggs, so icon the egg. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's a great I'm a big fan of YouTuber Jenny

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Speaker 1: Nicholson and she made a video about the Lamb Before

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Speaker 1: Time movies and singles out this song in like Lamb

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Speaker 1: Before Time forty seven where they ran out of ideas

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Speaker 1: and like the fourth one, and so in the one,

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Speaker 1: the villain is like a raptor who loves eggs and

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Speaker 1: he sings a song about eggs. Okay, yeah, I love

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Speaker 1: that egg culture. Culture is really strong. Um. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: this is our podcast. It's my birthday, It's your birthday,

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Speaker 1: Happy birthday. Jamie thinks a few things right at the top.

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Speaker 1: So this is our show in which we examine movies

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Speaker 1: through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test as

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Speaker 1: a jumping off point. We can chat about that in

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Speaker 1: a moment, but I just want to point out that

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Speaker 1: this is our second attempt at doing this episode on

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Speaker 1: the shape of water. What if we failed again? That'd

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Speaker 1: what if the egg thing was what took first? It

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Speaker 1: was the three eleven. Yeah, let's tell let's let's tell

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Speaker 1: them what happened because it was I think as it

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Speaker 1: was happening, we were having so much fun, but we

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Speaker 1: were also like a little we're scaring ourselves a little

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Speaker 1: bit because it's never happened, unprecedented truly. So what happened

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Speaker 1: is that we were all set to record an episode

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Speaker 1: on the shape of water, totally prepped. It wasn't a

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Speaker 1: matrix situation. The intentions were clear and we were going

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Speaker 1: to do it. We however, both had a heart out.

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Speaker 1: We only had about ninety minutes to record, and so

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Speaker 1: we start recording. We started talking and we were silly.

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Speaker 1: We were feeling silly. We hadn't recorded an episode in

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Speaker 1: a while because I am on tour in Europe, so

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Speaker 1: you know, we were just catching up. The vibes were loose,

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Speaker 1: and they were so loose that you got an email

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Speaker 1: about a three eleven the music group cruise, which I

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Speaker 1: still don't quite know what this could be. Three eleven

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Speaker 1: the band? Yeah, yeah, and so are they do they

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Speaker 1: perform on the cruise? Is it three eleven Themes? Okay,

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Speaker 1: all of you above, Okay, Yeah, they're definitely there. I

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Speaker 1: don't think that they have anything anything else going on.

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Speaker 1: Needlessly cruel, needlessly cruel. They're on the cruise, as the point, right,

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Speaker 1: So this, like this alert that you got about this cruise,

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Speaker 1: sent us on a spiral in which we did not

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Speaker 1: recover from and we spend a full hour and may

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Speaker 1: never we will never recover from it. So I believe

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Speaker 1: at the time of the release of this episode on

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Speaker 1: the Shape of Water, Matrons will have been exposed to

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Speaker 1: the episode that we are talking about right now. This

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Speaker 1: kind of we went off the rails and had a

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Speaker 1: silly time episode. I don't think, and and and just

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Speaker 1: to plug the Matrion while we're while we're here, hello,

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Speaker 1: I think it's been a while since we've had truly

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Speaker 1: off the rails Matreon episode. It's that's not usually how

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Speaker 1: it goes. We usually, you know, use the Matrion to

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Speaker 1: cover popular requests. We don't usually have guests on the Matreon.

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Speaker 1: It's a more loose format, but it's the same Bechtel

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Speaker 1: cast flavor. But occasionally, I would say, maybe once a

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Speaker 1: year there's an episode that is just like what's happening,

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Speaker 1: and this is that episode, and we hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 1: But but nonetheless, we had prepared for an episode, so

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Speaker 1: we're doing it now. So I don't know, I know,

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Speaker 1: I feel focused, I feel good. The egg thing, we

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Speaker 1: were in danger for a second, but I I texted

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Speaker 1: you the egg anecdote, I think, and so now you

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Speaker 1: have it, and now I released that perfect So from

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Speaker 1: my mind, we can move on to talking about what

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Speaker 1: the Bechtel Test is, which is a media metric created

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Speaker 1: by Queer cartoon is Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel

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Speaker 1: Wallace Test. Our version is this, two characters of a

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Speaker 1: marginalized gender must have names, they must speak to each other,

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Speaker 1: and their conversation has to be about something other than

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Speaker 1: a man, and ideally it's a substantial, meaningful conversation. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so that's the criteria, Like two women discussing eggs exactly

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Speaker 1: is an example that's not the Let's be clear, there's

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Speaker 1: other ways that That's not the only way the test

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Speaker 1: can work. Yes, absolutely, um So, today's episode is on

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Speaker 1: the Shape of Water and this is your big birthday episode, Jamie. So,

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Speaker 1: why don't you tell me, tell us all the listeners

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Speaker 1: out there in the world your relationship with this movie. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess I am mostly telling newer listeners of the

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Speaker 1: podcast because you you were there for my Shape of

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Speaker 1: Water face, and um so were many of our Day

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Speaker 1: one rider dies I had a whole thing. I did

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Speaker 1: a stand up joke about it for years. Really loved

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Speaker 1: the Fisherman for the Shape of Water, was like, why

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Speaker 1: is this horny? Slash? I love how horny this is?

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Speaker 1: Slash Wow. Doug Jones like, that's a Pandora's box of

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Speaker 1: my favorite thing in the world, which is obscure details

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Speaker 1: about character actors, Like, there was just a lot of

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Speaker 1: elements of this movie that was tick tick tick tick ticking.

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Speaker 1: For me. Um. I love del Toro, and I also

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Speaker 1: love like I'll tend to skew more towards um del

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Speaker 1: Toro's sentimental side of his catalog mainly just because not yeah,

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Speaker 1: mainly just because I'm not much of an action person,

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Speaker 1: so I'm very excited. It's like, oh, this is maybe

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Speaker 1: the most sentimental one. Yeah, I really enjoyed this movie

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Speaker 1: when it came out. I didn't think about it critically

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Speaker 1: very much. I know, I feel like when it came out,

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Speaker 1: I feel like it was like people generally liked it,

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Speaker 1: but it was I think maybe considered to be a

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Speaker 1: bit overrated in terms of how much awards attention it generated.

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Speaker 1: But I didn't really care. I mean, I was like,

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Speaker 1: Del Toro won an Oscar for this, and I feel

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Speaker 1: like people never win the Oscar for the movie they're

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Speaker 1: supposed to the point is that they get it, So

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Speaker 1: would it maybe have made sense for him to win

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Speaker 1: for another movie? Sure, La Brenth Pansla exactly. Um, I

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Speaker 1: remember seeing a lot of takes and that I'm like,

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Speaker 1: you're not even wrong, but I just, you know, leave

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Speaker 1: Leaf Deltara alone. Where they that was all the same

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Speaker 1: year to get Out came out. They're like, get Out

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Speaker 1: should have one best picture that's the most impactful, memorable,

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Speaker 1: good picture. You might be right about that, I think,

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Speaker 1: I mean, certainly cultural impact and good okay, but we're

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Speaker 1: not here to talk about I don't want to hit

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Speaker 1: the boys against each other. I love Shape of Water.

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Speaker 1: It makes me cry. It was It was interesting too

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Speaker 1: prepare this episode because I do think that there is

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Speaker 1: a lot to talk about in terms of the subjects.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't do well on or or UM. I think that,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the five years, I can't believe it's

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Speaker 1: been five years since I was seeing Titania and or

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Speaker 1: Shape of Water in theaters every day. I guess also,

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Speaker 1: I do think that this is a thing like where

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Speaker 1: end of a bit of a low for for your girl,

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Speaker 1: you know, Jim, and I feel like, you know, the

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Speaker 1: movies that you become attached to when you're at a

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Speaker 1: bit of a low in this era, Shape of Water,

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Speaker 1: in Titania, they're just always a little special to you.

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Speaker 1: But like, yeah, well, I think that there's a huge

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Speaker 1: um conversation about disability, in particular in the portrayal of

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Speaker 1: disability in big movies that needs to be had About

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Speaker 1: this movie, I'm excited to get into it, and I'm

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Speaker 1: excited to get horny for the fish Man again. It's

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Speaker 1: been a while. I remember how much you loved his

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Speaker 1: fish but and fish abbs, I think you were really

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Speaker 1: isolating certain parts of his fish body and I was

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Speaker 1: objective hying him fish thigh gap, I want to say

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Speaker 1: as well, he did have it. Oh my god, I

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Speaker 1: forgot not the thigh gap. I forgot that. I was

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Speaker 1: really fixated on the thigh gap. Yes, wow, I wonder

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Speaker 1: what's happened to because I wasn't. Maybe maybe I'm making

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Speaker 1: progress on my own body issues because the thigh gap

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Speaker 1: didn't leap out at me this time, so progress question mark.

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Speaker 1: We don't know. Could be that said, yes, the sexty

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Speaker 1: fish does have a thigh gap, um, and that's just

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Speaker 1: those are beautiful truth. I don't think that they ever

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Speaker 1: ended up making an action figure of him, which I

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Speaker 1: feel like I need to check. But I feel like

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Speaker 1: it was that was amissing. It was kind of just

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Speaker 1: like much like I was waiting for the Babu Frick

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Speaker 1: Plushy to come out. You're guess it's going to happen.

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Speaker 1: It's just a matter of time. I thought that the

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Speaker 1: having the fishman in my home would be inevitable, but

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Speaker 1: it hasn't happened. Well, maybe you have to open your

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Speaker 1: birthday present from me just kidding. Life Dug just pops

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Speaker 1: out of a cake. I don't want to make any

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Speaker 1: promises I can't keep. So maybe what's your history with

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Speaker 1: the Shape of What Terror? I saw it in theaters

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Speaker 1: I think only one time. Unbelievable. I think my favorite

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Speaker 1: thing about this movie is the production design, and I

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Speaker 1: like the story generally, but it's not my favorite of

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Speaker 1: Del Toro's and I just didn't feel that much of

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Speaker 1: an attachment to it. I was kind of flabbergasted that

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Speaker 1: it one best picture. Yeah, I thought there were other

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Speaker 1: movies that were far more deserving, and I was so

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Speaker 1: I kind of like ended up having some resentment toward

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Speaker 1: it because of that, and then I never engaged with

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Speaker 1: it again. So I don't I like this movie. I

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Speaker 1: don't love it. It's just I feel kind of maybe

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Speaker 1: even neutral, I suppose about it these days. Um, but

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Speaker 1: it was interesting revisiting it. I noticed, Um, do you

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Speaker 1: remember when we covered a little princess and there was

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Speaker 1: like this green motif and everyone was like, what does

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Speaker 1: green mean in this movie? A Fonso Koran, what are

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Speaker 1: you What are you trying to say with the green?

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Speaker 1: And he was like nothing, I just like green and

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Speaker 1: I found I think maybe del Toro was doing the

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Speaker 1: same kind of thing because so much of this movie

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Speaker 1: is green or like little objects are just little flourishes

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Speaker 1: in the movie are green, and it has a very

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Speaker 1: similar like yeah, just like color palette and like lighting

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Speaker 1: scheme as a little princess. And I guess other of

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Speaker 1: his movies. I mean, he's like pretty consistently like visually

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Speaker 1: consistent in his work, and yeah, I think that's a

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Speaker 1: major strength of his Again, but um, I was like,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of green in this movie. What does

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Speaker 1: the green mean? And I just want I'm hoping that

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00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,440
Speaker 1: someone asks Garmo about it and then he's just like nothing,

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Speaker 1: I just like green. We can't get into it here

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Speaker 1: because this is another yet another, I think, the other

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Speaker 1: major derailer of our last episode. But the timing of

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Speaker 1: this episode is kind of fun, not intentionally, but because

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Speaker 1: the new trailer for Garamos, why am I okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: not on a first name. Garmo dels Horos Pinocchio movie

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Speaker 1: just came out. We can't talk about Pinocchio anymore, No,

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Speaker 1: we cannot today, And if you don't know why, it's

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Speaker 1: because we accidentally talked about Pinocchio instead of the Shape

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Speaker 1: of Water for four to five minutes. Yes, wow, I

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Speaker 1: it's like genuinely like my chest tightened a little bit

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Speaker 1: because I still want to talk about Pinocchio Gate. Look

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Speaker 1: it up out of the Pinocchio is coming to the

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Speaker 1: Matrian this November. Okay, shape before Okay, so we both

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Speaker 1: saw it in theaters. I really was attached to it

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Speaker 1: at the time. I haven't watched it in a couple

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Speaker 1: of years. Honestly, the moment passed for me. Unlike Titania,

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Speaker 1: which I still watch constantly, I don't watch The Shape

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Speaker 1: of Water constantly, So it was interesting to revisit it

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00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,600
Speaker 1: with a few years distance. Still, I mean, the cast

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Speaker 1: of this movie is rather wild. Character actor after character

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Speaker 1: actor just top marks across the world casting wise. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about the movie. Let's do it. Let's take

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Speaker 1: a quick break first and then come back and talk

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Speaker 1: about the movie. Okay, we'll be right back. Splash blash,

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Speaker 1: and we're back. So shall we get into what's going on?

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Speaker 1: And what do we ever figure out? Do we figure

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Speaker 1: out what the shape of water? Oh? Like what literally

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00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,800
Speaker 1: like the answer to that question, like, what is the

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00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,160
Speaker 1: shape of water? Is it just the shape of Doug

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00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:13,240
Speaker 1: Johns oh with his butt and abs and is it

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Speaker 1: just that shape? Because I'm fine with that? Could be

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00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,720
Speaker 1: that it could be something a little more poetic, like

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Speaker 1: what isn't the shape of water or something? You know?

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Speaker 1: Whoa what it? And the shape of water could be?

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Speaker 1: Didn't ask that question? The shape of water is an

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00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:35,680
Speaker 1: idea to lie? You tell here? Oh my gosh, okay, sorry,

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00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,760
Speaker 1: what happens in the movie? Okay, So we open on

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00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,920
Speaker 1: an image of like the interior of an apartment that's

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00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,280
Speaker 1: completely underwater. We're also getting voice over from someone who

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00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:53,640
Speaker 1: tells us about yes, uh this tale of love and

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00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:58,960
Speaker 1: loss and a monster. And then we meet Eliza. That's

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Speaker 1: Sally Hawkins k Mrs Brown from Paddington. It is so

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Speaker 1: wild we forget. I think we mentioned this in our

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00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,800
Speaker 1: Paddington episode with Demio di Jui bay Um, that you

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Speaker 1: get to see Mrs Brown's nipples in this movie. It's

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Speaker 1: very alarm mantelis Paddington. Imagine Paddington seeing shape of water.

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Speaker 1: I don't think he's allowed. Oh my god, how old

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Speaker 1: is Paddington? Paddington is a child? Question mark? And why

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Speaker 1: does he have the voice of an adult man because

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Speaker 1: bears and why can't you? And then he can't be

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Speaker 1: a child. Wait, hold on, he can't be a child

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Speaker 1: because he goes to adult jail and he has the

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Speaker 1: voice of an adult man. He's an adult, he's but

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean he should see his mother's nipples. I'm

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Speaker 1: just saying, Yeah, these are some interesting questions, much like

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Speaker 1: what is the shape of water? How old is Paddington's

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00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,600
Speaker 1: will never know? They should have sent Paddington, They would

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00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,200
Speaker 1: have sent him to Juvie, which I also would have

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00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:06,360
Speaker 1: been interesting. Okay, we're getting into derailing territory. We're gonna

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00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,760
Speaker 1: focus up again. Okay, Okay, So we meet Eliza. We

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00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,040
Speaker 1: are in I don't know if it's like the late

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, early nineteen sixties, it's like Cold War era USA. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: post World War Two. It seems like we're in the

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Speaker 1: trenches because there's a lot of Eastern European space race

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Speaker 1: specific stuff. Yes, yes, and we are in Baltimore, Maryland.

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Speaker 1: Ever heard of it? Oh? With nineteen sixty two sixty two?

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00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:39,920
Speaker 1: Okyonically got it. So we see Eliza wake up and

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00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,600
Speaker 1: go about her morning routine, which is that she boils

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00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:48,240
Speaker 1: an egg, she draws herself a bath, she jerks herself off,

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00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:53,680
Speaker 1: and then she pays a visit to her neighbor Giles

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00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,640
Speaker 1: played by Richard Jenkins, and all of his cats as well.

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00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,280
Speaker 1: A lot of cat visibility in the movie, a lot

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00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:06,359
Speaker 1: of cat nipples as a result, a lot yes uh,

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00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,080
Speaker 1: and then one cat casualty, which is the worst part

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00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,840
Speaker 1: of the movie. Can't believe that's in the movie. Okay,

294
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:19,120
Speaker 1: of all the things to cut that could be it, Yeah, yeah, Okay.

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00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:24,280
Speaker 1: It becomes clear that Eliza does not speak with like

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Speaker 1: verbal language. She uses sign language to communicate. She then

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00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,199
Speaker 1: gets on a bus and heads to work. She and

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00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,560
Speaker 1: her co worker Zelda played by Octavia Spencer, work the

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00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:45,160
Speaker 1: night shift cleaning some kind of like science slash government facility.

300
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Speaker 1: And then, while Eliza and Zelda are working the kind

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00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,800
Speaker 1: of like scientists and lab technicians, various other personnel bring

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00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:59,120
Speaker 1: in this super secret, super important asset that is going

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00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,880
Speaker 1: to be housed at this facility, and whatever it is,

304
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,280
Speaker 1: it's alive, and it's in a large tank of water,

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00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,840
Speaker 1: and it's a sexy fish guy. And then it turns

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00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,920
Speaker 1: out to be a very sexy fish guy. Eliza is

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00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:18,520
Speaker 1: very curious about Eliza is very curious about what this

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00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,720
Speaker 1: might be, and she kind of like makes a ton

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00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,120
Speaker 1: of little bit of contact with it. We like see

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00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,320
Speaker 1: its hand, but then it's kind of like whisked away

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00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,760
Speaker 1: and the crowd goes wild. I saw this in theaters

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00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,520
Speaker 1: several times, and you know, like you could tell who

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00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,639
Speaker 1: was there for certain reasons. And I guess that's all

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00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,600
Speaker 1: I have to say about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So

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00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,359
Speaker 1: we also meet Dr hoff Stetler, who's played by Michael

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00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,080
Speaker 1: Stallbarg And I don't know if we have covered a

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00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 1: movie with Michael Stallbarg in it, but now I know

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00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:59,280
Speaker 1: that cat friend of the cast, Katherine Leon, yes um

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00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,400
Speaker 1: of This by Kids episode. Of course. Yeah, she had

320
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,360
Speaker 1: like a Michael stallbarg newsletter for a while, Is that correct? Yeah,

321
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,280
Speaker 1: the Daily Barg in which she would just stick to

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00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:14,920
Speaker 1: Daily Bark send out a photo of Michael Stallberg to

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00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,960
Speaker 1: any subscribers of this newsletter just to say, hey, here's

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00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:26,760
Speaker 1: another photo. Is it still active? I don't think so. Ah, yeah, sad,

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00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,720
Speaker 1: there's I mean, the this movie's Michael game is very strong,

326
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,679
Speaker 1: because we're about to get Michael Shannon playing his in

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00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:39,159
Speaker 1: his iconic role Patriarchy the one guy, which is a

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00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 1: role he plays often and well, yes, yes, indeed, So

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00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 1: Michael Stallberg is Dr. Hoff Stetler, who is the kind

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00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:54,480
Speaker 1: of lead scientist overseeing this asset, and Michael Shannon plays Strickland,

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00:20:54,880 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 1: who is a very sinister man overseeing the security of

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00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,120
Speaker 1: this asset. Yeah. Then we cut to the next day

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00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 1: and Eliza and Giles go out for some pie. Is

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00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 1: mostly so that Giles can try to flirt with the

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00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 1: cute guy who works at the pie place. Then the pie.

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00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,480
Speaker 1: I love how the pie is disgusting, like no matter,

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00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,919
Speaker 1: like the pie is objectively bad and the only reason

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00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 1: that he's getting businesses because there's a crush and there's

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00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 1: a there's a crush. I mean, how much money have

340
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 1: we all spent because of a crush? I don't want

341
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,760
Speaker 1: to talk about it. Oh my god, I went to WrestleMania.

342
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:39,240
Speaker 1: What anyways? Okay, another story for another time because now

343
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 1: just chew on that. But the pie is green. The

344
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 1: green motif is starting green green chemical Google. Yes, So

345
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 1: we see Eliza at another day at work. Something happens

346
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,639
Speaker 1: in the lab and Strickland rushes out with some of

347
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: his inger's missing, and Eliza and Zelda are called in

348
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 1: to clean up the bloody mess. And in this lab

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00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:13,639
Speaker 1: there's a large pool of water that the asset is

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00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 1: maybe living in, swimming in um. And then Eliza meets

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00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,199
Speaker 1: this quote unquote asset, which turns out to be a

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00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 1: sexy fishman played by Doug Jones, and the crowd goes wild. Yes,

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00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 1: we love him, he's so handsome. What a review. It

354
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 1: is a great reveal. That is such an iconic scene.

355
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 1: I feel like, even if you don't like the movie,

356
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,199
Speaker 1: or you think the movie is like a little bit

357
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 1: forget well whatever, some of the common criticisms of this movie,

358
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,680
Speaker 1: that's just like not his best. The little peak that

359
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 1: the fish guy does when he's looking at the egg

360
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,639
Speaker 1: and they're logan eye and you're like, this rocks. That

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00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 1: happens in a in a couple of scenes from now okay,

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00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 1: sorry with sorry, I getting ahead of myself, because it's

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00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,479
Speaker 1: my favorite scene in the whole movie when they I

364
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 1: love a meat cute and this is a real this

365
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 1: is a stressful beat cute, but it's good. Michael Shannon

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00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 1: is a Leo that I guess that makes sense. He

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00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 1: know comes his birthday. By the time you're hearing this,

368
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: he'll be it'll be his birthday. Yeah, it's and it's

369
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,120
Speaker 1: Leo season. I was going to make a hilarious joke

370
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: that it's not a meat cute, it's a fish cute,

371
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: because in this case, meat is like an e a t.

372
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 1: It's a past paste cute, and Leo something to think about,

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00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 1: something you think about. So in this first little encounter here,

374
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 1: Eliza and the Fishman have kind of a little moment,

375
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,679
Speaker 1: but they are interrupted when someone comes in and he

376
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: disappears into his tank of water. Um. So, the next day,

377
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 1: Eliza goes back into the lab and comes used to

378
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 1: face with the fishman. This is the scene you're talking about.

379
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 1: And at first he's like raw, but then she offers

380
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 1: him one of her hard boiled eggs and then he's

381
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 1: like raw. He's like what now, and he grabs it

382
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: and then he dives off into the pool. Yeah. Then

383
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: Strickland has a talk with Eliza and Zelda. He points

384
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: out the scars on Eliza's neck and we learn that

385
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: they are from an injury she sustained when she was

386
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 1: a baby and it's why she is not able to speak. Right. Then,

387
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: Eliza continues to visit the fish Man under the guise

388
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: of like cleaning the lab, but basically there's a montage

389
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: where she brings him a bunch of eggs, she plays

390
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: music for him, she teaches him some sign language. They're

391
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 1: falling and it gets pretty flirty. You're falling in love.

392
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 1: She dances and he's like, who, good dance. It's getting

393
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: it's getting pretty spicy in the lab. And who sees

394
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:14,479
Speaker 1: this but Dr Hoffstetler. And then it's revealed that he

395
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: is a Russian spy who gives information about the Fishman

396
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: to his Soviet comrades. But his helpful thing is like, yeah,

397
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: I'm a spy, but also I love science, and I

398
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 1: think this fishman should be protected and like studied, and

399
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: you know, he's not like other spies. He's not like

400
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 1: the other spies. And we'll I don't know if I

401
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 1: like figured out a way exactly to work this into

402
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: the recap. But the whole reason that they have captured

403
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 1: this fish man is that he is able to kind

404
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: of switch his breathing mechanisms from like breathing with gills

405
00:25:53,880 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 1: underwater to breathing presumably with lungs above water like the air.

406
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: And they're studying this because again, both the US and

407
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union are in this space race, and they're

408
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: trying to figure out, oh, can we like use the

409
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: anatomy of this fish man and kind of replicate that

410
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: so that we can like kind of use like how

411
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: do astronauts breathe in space kind of thing? So they're

412
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: like studying that. Any Way, I didn't really recognize that

413
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 1: that was what they were studying. And I've seen this

414
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: movie ten times. There's a lot of things that just

415
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: kind of whoop right over your head, and that's okay,

416
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: I don't go kinda come to this movie for science, alright.

417
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: So one day Eliza sees Strickland torturing the Fishman and

418
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 1: then some military personnel come in, and oh, this is

419
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: when we find out that, like they're studying him to

420
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: give the Americans an edge again the Soviets in the

421
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 1: space race. So Strickland wants to basically kill the Fishman

422
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: and dissect it. Dr Hoffsettler is like no, and Eliza

423
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 1: overhears all of this, so she starts to hatch a

424
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: plan to rescue the Fishman because she feels this very

425
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 1: intense connection with him. Not only have they been like

426
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: flirting romantically, but she feels that they are very similar

427
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 1: in that they can't speak with like verbal language, but

428
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: they can still communicate with each other, and she feels

429
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: that he sees her for what and who she truly

430
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 1: is in a way that she doesn't feel other people

431
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: see her exactly. So she begs for Giles to help

432
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 1: her with this rescue mission, which he refuses at first,

433
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: but then he changes his mind and agrees to help.

434
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 1: So they start to plan out this like high slash rescue,

435
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: and then it's time to execute it. Dr Hoffstetler realizes

436
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 1: what Eliza is doing and decides to help her get

437
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: the fishman out of his tank, but Strickland starts to

438
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: figure out that something's going on, as does Zelda, who

439
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 1: was like, Eliza, what are you doing? But then she

440
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: helps Eliza. Yeah, Strickland does the opposite. Meanwhile, Michael Shannon's

441
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: fingers are rotting off of his body and you're like,

442
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: it's a metaphor of it's still nasty to look at

443
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: yucky yucky, and then you're just like, Wow, who's the

444
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: real I mean, it's like this movie you very much

445
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: like know where it's going and what I was trying

446
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: to tell you but I kind of enjoy a lot

447
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: of parts of it. When you see the fingers start

448
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: to fall off, you're like, he's the bad guy. Wait

449
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: a second, is this say and he's the monster? This

450
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: is this a version? Yes? Yeah. So Eliza and Giles

451
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: successfully get the Fishman into this van that Giles is

452
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: driving and they escape, but Michael Shannon is like, who,

453
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: what is what's happening? Bang bang, and he's like firing

454
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: after them, but he doesn't know who has committed this

455
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: robbery of the fishman. It reminds me very much. Did

456
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: you ever know you you wouldn't have watched Hainold's right, Um,

457
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: I know of I know, I know it, but I didn't.

458
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: I didn't really watch it. The scene where they're getting

459
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: the fish Man out of the lab reminds me very much,

460
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: and I doubt that this was an inspiration at al

461
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: Toros is just similar. But one of my favorite episodes

462
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: of Hey Arnold, Shout Out, Hey Arnold Heads is when

463
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: Arnold's grandma, who's like kind of this renegade, they go

464
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: to the aquarium and they see a a big sea

465
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: turtle and like there's graffiti all over Michelle. He's not

466
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: being well taken care of. He's really sad, and then

467
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: they helped the sea turtle escape into the sea, and

468
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: it's a similar heist and it's also a similar like

469
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: he was read to be captive, how is he going

470
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: to survive in the wild? That TV show is capturing

471
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: heavy themes for children. Seriously, there's a whole section on

472
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: Wikipedia scholarly journal Wikipedia where it's like various people accusing

473
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: del Toro of plagiarism because apparently there are several existing

474
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: movies or plays or things like that that have very

475
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: similar stories to what degree to like people having sex

476
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: with a fish, because that might just be parallel thinking, right,

477
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: And I mean every everything was like concluded as it

478
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: was just parallel thinking and that like he didn't played

479
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: wise anything, but like one of them, for example, is

480
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: I think it was a movie about a cleaning lady

481
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: who helps a dolphin escape from a facility. I forget

482
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: what the other ones were, but helping helping any captive

483
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: animal escape zoo aquarium type situation, that's a pretty common theme.

484
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: It's just that you're not usually like dating them. I

485
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: think that's kind of the X factor. Yeah, I'm pretty

486
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: sure no one had sex with Willie in the movie

487
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: Free Willie. But that's what that movie. I haven't seen

488
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: that Willie escape, but we don't know. I forgot. I

489
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: forgot about Free Willy, who's in Free Willie. I feel

490
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: like there's like, you know what I will It's probably

491
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: like Devin saw Wall or something. I actually never saw

492
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: Free Willie. I feel like, probably see me. I've probably

493
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: been in the room and Free Willy was on, but

494
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: Free Willy was like not really my jam And I'm like,

495
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: I don't even know what I'm saying when I say that,

496
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: I don't know where I got stars Jason James Richter,

497
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: who Dad Lori Petty is in it? Um, Yeah, I

498
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: don't know where I got Devin Salwa. I feel like

499
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: anybody was probably just like and with all due respect

500
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: to Jason James Richter, Um, you know a young man

501
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: with banks, I feel like that's Devin Sawa Codd. I

502
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: understand where you were going. It was the nineties, after

503
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:34,719
Speaker 1: all that Infinity bang, that Cowlick. Where did that go?

504
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: How did everyone suppress? Now? I still have mine? I

505
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: still have mine. It's a problem that I also wanted

506
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: to say really quick on the topic of um fish

507
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: sex stories. There was another piece of popular media that

508
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: came out around the same time about a woman falling

509
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: in love with the fish. I Believe a fish Man

510
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: the Pisces, which is a book by Melissa Broder. I

511
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: haven't read it, but it was like a pretty popular

512
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: novel that came out a couple of years ago. So,

513
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: for for whatever reason, this is on the minds and

514
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: hearts of the collective. Beautiful. Yeah, that's a beautiful story.

515
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: Thank you. I didn't write um when are they? Oh no,

516
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: I was gonna say something, but it's going to derail

517
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: the episode. Wait and say it really quick though, Okay,

518
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: and then we just have to move on. When is

519
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: the biopic coming out about me watching the animated movie

520
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: Legend of Titanic and falling in love with tentacles, the

521
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: giant optoples, not tentacles. You can't just bring up tentacles.

522
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: You're soul, right, That does derail everything. Tentacles. Okay, really

523
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: really really really really quick again. Listeners of the Matreon

524
00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: will already know Tentacles is kind of fatal pass cannon.

525
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: So there's an animated movie about Titanic. It was made

526
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: in like five different countries. It's very kind of dissonant

527
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 1: in terms of it is like a mix of an

528
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: American tale because there's there's mice on the Titanic. Then

529
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: there's also the plot of the movie Titanic sort of

530
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: happening as well, and then what's the third movie. There's

531
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: like a third it's like sort of vaguely Little mermaid

532
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: ish but like not really, but you do see a

533
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: lot of like the Tentacles part. Yeah, yes, there's a

534
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: lot of underwater characters, like major characters like sharks and

535
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 1: the sharks bullies. Look, they weren't thinking too hard, like okay, yes,

536
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: So it's like the Little Mermaid story, the American Tales story,

537
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:46,919
Speaker 1: and then just regular Titanic and it's all taking place

538
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: on the Titanic. It is sensory overload. The bullied in

539
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,879
Speaker 1: this movie The Titanic. It doesn't go the way you're

540
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: expecting because we've been we've been gassed up with this

541
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 1: for the most of the movie. Seemingly unrelated story of

542
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 1: gigantic octopus who kind of fluctuates in size throughout the movie.

543
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: Sometimes he's it's the size of a regular octopus. Sometimes

544
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,359
Speaker 1: he's the size of the Empire state building, or let's

545
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,720
Speaker 1: say the Titanic or Titanic. So anyways, he's getting bullied,

546
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,280
Speaker 1: but then he, like Belie, learns to believe in himself.

547
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: His name's Tentacles full and then he um, he whole.

548
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: He's so he's Titanic sized when it suits him, and

549
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 1: he ends up holding the Titanic together with all of

550
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 1: his His ticles are so mostly all and he's also

551
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 1: like fleshy colored. He's pink, yeah, he's. And so in

552
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: this version of the Titanic narrative, there are no casualties.

553
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: Everyone on Titanic survives because he holds the ship together

554
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:58,959
Speaker 1: after it hits the iceberg and then breaks in half.

555
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: But he's like no, no, no, no, on my watch, Tentacles,

556
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: and then he saves everyone. So anyway, that's legend of Titanic.

557
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 1: It's on YouTube if you want to watch it, which

558
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: you should. Back to Shape of Water, I would watch

559
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 1: that movie if that you described, though, thank you me

560
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 1: falling in love with Tentacles, which I have done. So

561
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 1: where's the biopic? Alright, So Tentacles Eliza brings the fishman

562
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: back to I think they're in giles apartment and they

563
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 1: put him in the bathtub. So he's like kind of

564
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: chilling there, and Eliza's plan is to release him into

565
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: the ocean on the tenth of the month, when the

566
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: water in the canal will be high enough from the

567
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: rains to spill into the ocean. So they're going to

568
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: release him when that happens. So back at the facility,

569
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,760
Speaker 1: Eliza and Zelda have to just like play it cool.

570
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: They have to pretend like they don't know what's going on,

571
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 1: which works out pretty well because the people who work

572
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: at the facility thing a like highly trained special forces

573
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: like Soviet group of people pulled off this heist, although

574
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: Strickland is like suspicious and he's like something doesn't add

575
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 1: up here, and he's also fixated on um for for nasty,

576
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: exploitative reasons. He's fixated on Eliza. Yes, So back at

577
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: Giles is the Fishman ventures out of the tub and

578
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 1: he does eat one of Giles's cats, which Giles does

579
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: not really have much of a reaction to. I will say,

580
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: he really takes his stride in a way that it's

581
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: like I don't think it would have been inappropriate or

582
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 1: even mean to have a bigger reaction than that. I

583
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: think he's he he's great about it, but you're like, wow,

584
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,240
Speaker 1: did you even like, did he just kill your least

585
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 1: favorite cat? Because he does have like five cats or

586
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: something like that. Brutal, brutal, that's very like Victorian era

587
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: approach to having children vibe where you're like, well, I

588
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: still have enough laborers for the farm. You're like, jeez,

589
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: seems a little callous. So he eats one of Giles's

590
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: cats and then he scratches Giles's arm and then runs away.

591
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: So Eliza rushes home and finds the Fishman in the

592
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: nearby movie theater. She brings him back, puts him in

593
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: the bathtub, and then they have this sexy little moment

594
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 1: and then Eliza gets naked and gets into the bathtub

595
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 1: with him. Cut to her on the bus with a

596
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: big smile on her face, and then at work she

597
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: uses sign language to explain to Zelda that the Fishman

598
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: has a fish dick that comes out of a little

599
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: opening in his thigh gap. Top tier reaction from Octavia Spencer, Uh,

600
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: he got that, it's she's she's I wish that her

601
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 1: role was um it's I mean, it's like pretty big

602
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 1: at this movie, but I wish I wish it was

603
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:14,879
Speaker 1: even bigger um. But that that reaction alone, I mean, yeah,

604
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: what can you say? It's perfect? No notes. So then

605
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: Eliza goes home again, and this is when we get

606
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: the famous scene where Sally Hawkins fills the entire bathroom

607
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: with water and Fox the fish Man on screen, which

608
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: causes all of this leaking, and Giles was like, what

609
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: the fund and he opens the door and all the

610
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 1: water gushes out, very similar to a scene in Paddington

611
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: when Paddington's in the bathroom full of water high Jinks

612
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: and Sue and then the door opens and all the

613
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: water comes gushing out, only this time, which I'm like,

614
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 1: in this movie, is that a metaphor for like them orgasm? Ng?

615
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: Not sure, it's just to wow, makes you think it

616
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: could be, could be? And then so Giles is like

617
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: what And then Eliza is like hugging the fishman and

618
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 1: then she just kind of like smiles and shrugs. She's like,

619
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: it is what it is. Also, it turns out that

620
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: the Fishman has healing powers, and I didn't always forget

621
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 1: that he has healing powers. Yeah, because it's introduced kind

622
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:29,479
Speaker 1: of late into the movie, and I'm sure we'll mention

623
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: this in in the discussion. But at one point we

624
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 1: learned that some entity was like digging for oil in

625
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: the Amazon rainforest. They found this fish man and brought

626
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: it back to this facility. But they described that this

627
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: fishman was like revered as a god by the indigenous

628
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 1: people living in the Amazon, and it could be that

629
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 1: he was like revered as a god because he has

630
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: these healing powers. This is all kind of like very

631
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 1: gloss stover and if like you get up to go

632
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: to the bathroom during that scene, like you will entirely

633
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: miss this part. But basically, he has these healing powers.

634
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 1: He heals giles is scratch on his arm. He also

635
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 1: grows some hair on giles bald head, which we know

636
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: that he's very self conscious about. And then I forgot

637
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,879
Speaker 1: I always forget about that as well. And then something

638
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: I always forget about. There's this like kind of fantasy

639
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 1: scene where Eliza speaks and then she starts singing, and

640
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,800
Speaker 1: then there's like this whole like black and white fantasy

641
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: song and dance scene between her and the fishman and

642
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 1: they're dancing and it's like very like classic Hollywood. There

643
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 1: are some issues with that kind of thing. That's another

644
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: thing where I was just like, mmmm, there are better

645
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:52,359
Speaker 1: ways to Yeah. Anyways, um, well we'll get to that too.

646
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: Yeah kind of. That was like heavily featured in the

647
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: marketing for this movie, but I kind of forget about

648
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: it because it's such a I think, uh huttable moments,

649
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 1: throw away moment. Yeah, you're like, oh, this is a

650
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 1: very expensive cutaway. Right. Meanwhile at the lab, everyone is like,

651
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: where's the fish. We gotta find the fish, and the

652
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: Soviets are like, hey, Michael Stallberg, where's the fish? We

653
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 1: wanted its dead body? So everyone's looking for the fish.

654
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: Hashtag where's the fish is trending in Twitter. Yeah. Then

655
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 1: we realized that the Fishman's health is failing and he

656
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: needs to be released into the ocean a sap. There's

657
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:42,800
Speaker 1: a scene where hoff Stetler's Soviet comrades shoot him, but

658
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 1: then Strickland shows up and he kills the comrades and

659
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: he's like, what the fuck, hoff Stetler, you're a spy.

660
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: You were speaking Russian. And then as hoff Stetler is dying,

661
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,240
Speaker 1: he lets it slip that it was the cleaning crew

662
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 1: who stole the Fishman, and Strickland realizes, oh, it must

663
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: have in Eliza and Zelda. Yeah, he wanted I wanted

664
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: to vibe check on this. I was sort of like

665
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 1: feeling betrayed by Hofstetler at the end because like he's dying,

666
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,720
Speaker 1: why sell them out at that point? Like for what reason?

667
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: I had the same thought. I feel like that was

668
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 1: a little bit of narrative convenience of like, we need

669
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: to get Michael Shannon his info. But I felt like

670
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 1: that was like undercutting who we had grown to find

671
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: that character to be like a complicated like he wouldn't

672
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: give away the agendas of people who's like who he

673
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: felt were good in acting towards the greater good, and

674
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: that was like his whole journey because Octavia Spencer, because

675
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: this movie is like really let you know how it

676
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: feels about things, like Octavia Spencer literally says to his face,

677
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: you are a good man, and then he does that.

678
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 1: It was dissonant. I agree, it just felt like a

679
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 1: plot device, almost hum Anyway, it's not the biggest deal,

680
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: but I was I always like, I that's another moment

681
00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 1: that I forget about, where you're just like, couldn't he

682
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: have like found some evidence instead of like undercutting that

683
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 1: whole Because I thought that was like a really good

684
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 1: job by Michael Stillbar too. I wonder what the Daily

685
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: Bark had to say about it. I don't remember. Unfortunately,

686
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to guess positive. But yeah, no, I had

687
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 1: the same thought. But this allows Strickland to like kind

688
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: of figure out that it was Eliza and Zelda who

689
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 1: had something to do with the Fishman being stolen. So

690
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 1: first he goes to Zelda's house to question her, and

691
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: her husband tells Strickland that it was Eliza who was

692
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: responsible for this, you know, the stealing of the fishman.

693
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: So then Strickland goes to Eliza's but she and Giles

694
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: have already left to go release the Fishman into the water.

695
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: But Strickland figures out where they're headed because they're going

696
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: to the docks, and he goes after them. Cut to

697
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 1: the docks, Eliza and the fishermen are saying goodbye, Strickland

698
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 1: shows up. He shoots the fish man, he shoots Eliza,

699
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: but then the Fishman uses his healing powers to heal himself.

700
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:14,720
Speaker 1: He slashes Strickland's throat, and then he takes Michael Shannon

701
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 1: line that you're like, he's really delivering this line that

702
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: you're like what he's like you are? I can't wait

703
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 1: for Tann out of time. Do you remember how Michael

704
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,720
Speaker 1: Shannon was literally an eight mile Sometimes I just forget

705
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: how deep his filmography is. No, I don't remember that

706
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 1: in Kangaroo Jack and eight Mile. What a career? Wow?

707
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 1: I know what can't he do? His early filmography is

708
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 1: really funny because he was just in like he all

709
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 1: over the place, CEC Will Be Demented, Pearl Harbor, Vanilla Sky,

710
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 1: eight Mile, Kangaroo Jack, Bad Boys Too. He was in

711
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: a movie Whoa because he calls they have bony Man.

712
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 1: What a legend. Wow. It's a short film, but he

713
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 1: played Walt the Sam bony Man. WHOA. I wonder if

714
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: that's about a man and who gets bitten by a

715
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 1: radioactive zamboni. That would be really wait wait, hold on,

716
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: we have to collaborate INNA's because it gets turned into

717
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: like an ice situation. Well yeah, oh my gosh wow.

718
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 1: I was just looking at his filmography to just confirm

719
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: that it was in fact him and that I remember

720
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 1: seeing an eight years ago. Yeah, I guess you're right.

721
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: Was um okay? So Strickland is murdered by the fish

722
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 1: Man and then the fishman takes Eliza's limp body and

723
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:37,280
Speaker 1: jumps into the water with her. She seems to be dying,

724
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: but he turns the scars on her neck into gills,

725
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 1: and then she seems to come back to life and

726
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: she's healed. Although so one interpretation is that she's alive

727
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: and they live happily ever after underwater together. Another interpretation

728
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: is that that's kind of like a fantasy and she

729
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: actually dies, kind of like how Pan's Labyrinth ends, where

730
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: the main character in that movie dies, but then she's

731
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 1: kind of like reborn as this princess in Labyrinth World. Um. Anyway,

732
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: so different interpretations of the end, but that is how

733
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: the movie ends. So let's take another break and we

734
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 1: will come back to discuss. And we're back. I just

735
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: had a during the break, I you know, dipped in

736
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: my little pool, my little tank of water, and I

737
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: had a little bath, the tank of water, the tank

738
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 1: of water. Okay, where shall we begin? I would if

739
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: it's a city, I would like to start with talking

740
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:55,919
Speaker 1: about I think the main criticism surrounding this movie that

741
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 1: is extremely value. I even trying to like put my

742
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: self in brain. I remember this being discussed when the

743
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 1: movie came out, but it was not central discussion at all,

744
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 1: And so I want to talk a little bit about

745
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: how disability is portrayed in this movie. As always, we're

746
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: interested if, if, if we have listeners with disabilities that

747
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 1: would like to share their perspective. I've seen kind of

748
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: a wide variety of takes on it, but I mean

749
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: the first the first issue is one that we've discussed

750
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: on the show before, which is, you know, Eliza does

751
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: not speak, she has a disability, as she's not played

752
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 1: by a disabled actor. So this is something that happens

753
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 1: all the time. I feel like it's very often presented

754
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 1: as like, obviously there are many, many, many talented disabled

755
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 1: actors that would have been more appropriate for this role.

756
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: But I feel like instead there's I read a lot

757
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 1: to this effect, and we've just gotten on the show before.

758
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 1: There's sometimes like disabled parts are taken by able bodied

759
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 1: actors as like a challenge and it's kind of an

760
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 1: Oscar It's been sort of framed as like an Oscar

761
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 1: baity thing to do, definitely, and I think that in

762
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 1: the case of Sally Hawkins, that's um exactly how it

763
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 1: played out right, And I think a lot of people

764
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 1: have commented on her good performance. I don't know, like,

765
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's the right word, but I mean,

766
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: I do think that she does a good job in

767
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,240
Speaker 1: the movie. But although a lot of people have also

768
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 1: pointed out that it's pretty obvious that she is not

769
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: fluent or even very good at sign language, I was

770
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 1: also having trouble confirming if she uses American Sign language.

771
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: I saw some people saying that the sign that she

772
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 1: uses in the movie is not entirely a s L,

773
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 1: but like some of it is. But then other people

774
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: have confirmed that she is using a s L. I

775
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: don't know enough about it to know firsthand, so I

776
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:15,280
Speaker 1: couldn't confirm if that is the type of sign she's using.

777
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: I was also, yeah, I was saying criticism around it,

778
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: but I couldn't find specificity. So if there's if there's

779
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 1: anyone listening that could answer that, I mean, I'm very curious.

780
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: I just wasn't. Yeah, I wasn't able to find it. Yes,

781
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: So that's the first problem of and again we've talked

782
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,760
Speaker 1: about this a lot on the show, of a non

783
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 1: disabled actor being cast to play a character who is disabled,

784
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:42,839
Speaker 1: And I think that is one of the problems because

785
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: basically everyone who worked on this movie is an able

786
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 1: bodied person and as far as like consultants being brought in,

787
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: that didn't really happen. So it was like I wasn't

788
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:01,240
Speaker 1: I was looking for any indication that that had happened,

789
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 1: and it had, which is I mean, I think for

790
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: in particular, I was pretty surprised at that seems like

791
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:14,240
Speaker 1: a really glaring mistake. You would have thought, right, So

792
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:19,959
Speaker 1: I'm pulling this from a huff Post piece entitled how

793
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 1: the Shape of Water makes People with disabilities feel less

794
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: human by at least Juan Shell. It basically says that

795
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 1: huff Posts reached out to Fox Searchlight to ask whether

796
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: there were any disabled consultants involved with the film, and

797
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 1: a representative of the film said that, like basically in

798
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: response that question said that to a s L coaches

799
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: were involved during the production, but that appears to be

800
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: the only consultants so right, which this seems like a

801
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 1: pretty clear cut case of um, there should be that,

802
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 1: like you, you would need to have consultants involved from

803
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: the very very beginning, not just as it pertains to

804
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: working with actors, which is definitely important. And it sounds

805
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: like maybe Sally Hawkins didn't have enough time to even

806
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 1: get to where she needed to be on that front, um,

807
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: which I wasn't aware of because I don't I don't

808
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: know as L, and so I that seems really frustrating

809
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 1: for someone who who does speak as L to see

810
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 1: it presented in this kind of like sloppy way, which

811
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's the fault of the consultants, who knows,

812
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: but it's like, you know, if del Toro wants to

813
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: have a disabled protagonist, great, but even you need to

814
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:48,760
Speaker 1: bring in a consultant or even better, a co writer

815
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 1: who can shape that story from the jump and not

816
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 1: just you know, the script shouldn't be locked without consulting,

817
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: like yes, And because that did not appear to happen,

818
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 1: there are some issues with the way disability is represented

819
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: in the movie. Um. Yeah, there seemed to be a

820
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 1: lot of conflicting feelings from a lot of members of

821
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 1: the disabled community, because on one hand, there's like, oh,

822
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 1: you know, we're seeing um, a disabled woman with sexuality

823
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: on screen that never happens. But then there's a whole

824
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 1: a lot of other criticism that we will get into. Um.

825
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 1: I would recommend everyone read a piece by Elsa yes,

826
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: Johnson Henry, I'm I'm not sure if pronounced that correctly. Yes. So,

827
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:47,840
Speaker 1: she's a speculative fiction author and editor who is legally

828
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,439
Speaker 1: blind and deaf. She wrote a piece about this movie

829
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 1: entitled I Belong Where the People Are Disability in the

830
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 1: Shape of Water on tour dot com t o R

831
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 1: dot com tours my pub the publisher of the Hot

832
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: Dog book famously Oh my gosh, no way, wow, congrats.

833
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 1: So she wrote this great piece and I want to

834
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 1: pull some quotes from it. I have. I feel like

835
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 1: I basically copy pasted the assay into my notes because

836
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,839
Speaker 1: it's really really like thoughtful and comprehensive. It's great, for sure.

837
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:25,319
Speaker 1: Let's exchange quotes, shall we see it? So? The first

838
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:29,760
Speaker 1: one I wanted to share is this Elsa says, quote

839
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 1: the first time in years that I have seen a

840
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: disabled woman sexually desired and indeed sexually active and loved

841
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 1: in a film is by a monster. Monster. Hood and

842
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 1: disability are an extra. And oh no, this word, I

843
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:53,439
Speaker 1: never can say it. And inextricably inextricably yeah it's it's

844
00:54:53,520 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: you gotta really enter it with coxtricably inextricable. Killed it. Wow? Okay,

845
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 1: so inextricably linked in our genre. Characters like Smoke are

846
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 1: barely human. Smoke from Star Wars are barely human, their

847
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 1: faces marred by scars, which signal that they are evil.

848
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: Disability and disfigurement are tied together. As one, Elsa's scars

849
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 1: on her neck have been read as gills by some,

850
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 1: a hint that her disability is in fact monster hood

851
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 1: all on its own unquote. So that's and this is

852
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 1: something that we've talked about a fair share on the podcast,

853
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 1: especially when it comes to horror movies, because horror is

854
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 1: a genre that it's very very guilty of this. But

855
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 1: it's not limited to horror movies, like you know that

856
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 1: genre at all. This is something that spans across genre

857
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 1: where disability or disfigurement will be linked to a villainous behavior. So, um,

858
00:55:55,200 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 1: that's kind of like where the movie, and it depends

859
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: on how you interpret things, but like, this is definitely

860
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,879
Speaker 1: one kind of reading of the film. Yeah, I want

861
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 1: to share a quote from that essay as well, because

862
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:13,760
Speaker 1: I I do think that it's like the core issue

863
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: because I and I do want to, like, yeah, acknowledge

864
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 1: that a lot of what I was reading around this movie,

865
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:22,360
Speaker 1: and I think we should talk about this more in

866
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: detail when we get to talking about sex anyways, But

867
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:31,759
Speaker 1: you know, having uh, like, I think that it's Elsa Shenson,

868
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:35,800
Speaker 1: Sir Johnson Henry who wrote that like she had never

869
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 1: seen a mainstream movie where a woman with a disability

870
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:45,280
Speaker 1: was centered as being sexually desirable, as like initiating sex

871
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 1: and like, which I think is kind of a cool

872
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:54,080
Speaker 1: element of their relationship is it is very motivated by Eliza.

873
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 1: Kristin Lopez wrote a piece in The Hollywood Reporter in

874
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 1: which this is like a a big talking point of

875
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 1: her piece of like the sexuality of disabled characters and

876
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 1: how it's very rare to see. So yeah, but yeah

877
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 1: we can. We'll we'll cover that more when we talk

878
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 1: about sex, babyc sex. Let's talk about fish sex baby. Um.

879
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 1: But I just want to share that, Yeah, Like the

880
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 1: the use of Eliza's disability seems to be strictly not strictly,

881
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: but a lot of it is used as a metaphorical

882
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 1: purpose versus just representing a disabled character in the world,

883
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 1: which is patronizing. As many writers as have um mentioned,

884
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 1: you know, I I'm not saying that I think that

885
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 1: del Toro intended it that way, but it's definitely you know,

886
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 1: he presents this movie as a fairy tale, and fairy

887
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 1: tales very often do this kind of stuff, So I

888
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 1: want to share a little more of elsa stunts and

889
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 1: Henry's as a that you know, sort of lands on

890
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 1: like it's ultimately you know, Eliza isn't loved by a

891
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 1: member of her own species, and the only way that

892
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 1: she's able to find acceptance is through possibly dying and

893
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 1: definitely being with someone who is not other own species.

894
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 1: So she writes, quote, society says that disability makes us lesser,

895
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:24,440
Speaker 1: makes us uneven humans. The worst of humanity looks at

896
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 1: me with my one clouded eye and my one hearing year.

897
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 1: It looks at me and says, I am half of

898
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:31,600
Speaker 1: what I could be. This isn't a projection. I don't

899
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 1: feel less than whole. I've had people tell me that

900
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,440
Speaker 1: I am lesser than them, that they couldn't imagine what

901
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:38,680
Speaker 1: it would be to inhabit my body, that they would

902
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:41,120
Speaker 1: rather die than experience what it is like to live

903
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: in a disabled body unquote. And it does feel to me.

904
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 1: And this came up in a couple of essays that

905
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 1: I read that Eliza says that directly in that speech

906
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 1: that she gives to Giles of why she loves the

907
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: fish span so much, is like she says, he doesn't

908
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:07,560
Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing, but it's something like he doesn't know what

909
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 1: I lack. So she's explicitly saying that she views her

910
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 1: own disability as her lacking something versus that being this

911
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 1: is the messaging that society has projected at her her

912
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 1: whole life. But it's like the way that it's written

913
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 1: makes it canonically she views her own disability as being deficient,

914
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:32,640
Speaker 1: a lack she also, I think in in the movie

915
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 1: Eliza says that she is incomplete, which, again, if you

916
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 1: had consultants disabled consultants on the movie, a line of

917
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 1: dialogue like that, I don't think would be in the movie.

918
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:52,080
Speaker 1: It would be Yeah, Eliza's feelings about her disability, I

919
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 1: think would be framed very differently if it were coming

920
00:59:55,360 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 1: from the perspective of actual disabled people, who would have

921
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 1: just a more informed perspective on how disabled people view

922
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 1: and feel about their disabilities. So there's a quote from

923
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 1: h writer named Amy Lowe in CBC Shout Out Canada

924
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,440
Speaker 1: um that I thought sort of like tied that together

925
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 1: pretty well. She said, quote I found that really unfortunate

926
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 1: because it sort of reproduces the stereotype that nonverbal people

927
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 1: can't express themselves in a way that's actually comfortable or

928
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 1: natural for them. And then it also reproduces the stereotype

929
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 1: that disability is like a cage unquote. So I think

930
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 1: that the I mean, alliwes this whole storyline kind of

931
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:46,920
Speaker 1: lends itself to viewing her disability as a metaphorical storytelling

932
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 1: tool rather than an element of who she is as

933
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 1: a person. And the other moment that seems to draw

934
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 1: the most criticism we've already talked about briefly, which is

935
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 1: the like old Hollywood flashback thing, which I would hazard

936
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 1: to guess was like del tour. I feel like, you know, like,

937
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:10,960
Speaker 1: oh tour is often like romanticized past Hollywood stuff by

938
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 1: a lot, and it's probably just like, oh, wouldn't this

939
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:17,360
Speaker 1: be cool? But the text of that scene is that

940
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 1: Eliza is sitting across from the fish man, overcome with

941
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 1: how much she loves him, and then for one scene

942
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 1: she quote unquote sheds her disability and is able to

943
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 1: use her voice to sing, and they dance and like

944
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 1: it's this like fantasy sequence, but the core of the

945
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 1: fantasy is like romanticizing her shedding her disability instead of

946
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 1: I feel like you can still have that same unmemorable

947
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 1: sequence of them in a way that doesn't right exactly

948
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 1: like it without it romanticizing like, oh she would be

949
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 1: I feel like it implies that she would be so

950
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:02,600
Speaker 1: much happier if she could speak. But yeah, and and

951
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 1: that was on. I mean, that's not something that occurred

952
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 1: to me the first time I saw the movie, but

953
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 1: it's like absolutely true. And again, like you're saying, like

954
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 1: if there had there been consultants or co writers and

955
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:16,280
Speaker 1: during the writing process, I think that that would have

956
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 1: been a very very easy thing to catch. And again,

957
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:25,120
Speaker 1: like another good reason to cast actors who have the

958
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:29,360
Speaker 1: disabilities that you're portraying on screen, because then, I mean,

959
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 1: that's not to say that like because oftentimes when actors

960
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 1: try to advocate for themselves, they're labeled as difficult and

961
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:39,439
Speaker 1: then they might get fired. But at least you would

962
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 1: have yet another perspective saying, well, that doesn't really jive

963
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 1: with how people actually feel about things. So and I

964
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 1: want to believe that, like del Toro is an empathetic

965
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 1: enough filmmaker to be able to receive that, right. I'm

966
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 1: just fort in my mind, but I'm like, I feel

967
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 1: like he would be up to I just am like,

968
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:07,880
Speaker 1: but it's it is so so wild that I feel

969
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:10,120
Speaker 1: like this is you know, it's it's theotour thing again,

970
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:13,520
Speaker 1: you know where it's just like some people, no matter

971
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:18,240
Speaker 1: how iconic incredible, need to be given notes, and people

972
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 1: don't give them to them because they're um special directors,

973
01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 1: too many yes men out there. Um. I would argue

974
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 1: that the way the movie ends is also just kind

975
01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:34,720
Speaker 1: of very telling of the representation of disability in this story, because,

976
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:40,040
Speaker 1: as I often tell my screenwriting students who, the way

977
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 1: a movie ends does a lot to say how this

978
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 1: movie feels about like the story it was telling, or like,

979
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:50,600
Speaker 1: you know, the kind of the theme of the movie

980
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 1: is usually very clearly communicated in the final images and

981
01:03:56,960 --> 01:04:01,479
Speaker 1: final moments of the movie. So like, what you're trying

982
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:04,760
Speaker 1: to say with your narrative usually is like very clear

983
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:07,240
Speaker 1: at the very end. So what happens at the end

984
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:13,400
Speaker 1: is Eliza is well maybe dies but also maybe is

985
01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:17,200
Speaker 1: turned into a fish person and then lives hapfully ever

986
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:22,200
Speaker 1: with her fish boyfriend under the sea, So, um, let's

987
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:28,200
Speaker 1: see do let's go with that interpretation, which, going back

988
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:32,960
Speaker 1: to Else's piece in Towards dot Com, she kind of

989
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 1: comments on how the end suggests that like disabled people

990
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:43,160
Speaker 1: should go and be with their own kind and says quote,

991
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 1: I wish that I could just say, well, that's fantasy

992
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 1: and move on, but I can't. Not when I've literally

993
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:52,920
Speaker 1: never seen a movie in which a disabled woman is

994
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:56,640
Speaker 1: desired by a non disabled partner. Not when I know

995
01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 1: that my body is seen as less than desirable. Not

996
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,920
Speaker 1: and I know that subconsciously this film it means she

997
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:07,760
Speaker 1: deserves a freak like her, not a human like her unquote.

998
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 1: And then, um, just to share one more quote from uh,

999
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 1: this piece also says quote, The conflict for me is

1000
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 1: here that, on one hand, I have always known in

1001
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:21,440
Speaker 1: my soul that able bodied people see me as half

1002
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 1: of them, that they see me as less than whole,

1003
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:28,120
Speaker 1: which is why I hate that in media such as this,

1004
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:31,200
Speaker 1: we can only be desired by those who don't know

1005
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:36,040
Speaker 1: any better unquote. So the way the movie ends, the

1006
01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 1: whole romance between Eliza and the fishman, these are the implications. Yeah,

1007
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:46,800
Speaker 1: it's the ending. And also this is kind of a

1008
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 1: movie that, like I don't always remember how it ends,

1009
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 1: and like, after not saying it for a couple of years,

1010
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 1: I was like, oh yeah, oh no, they die like

1011
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:58,360
Speaker 1: it's it kind of reminds me. I feel like it

1012
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 1: that is a atronizing ending for a disabled character, and

1013
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:06,560
Speaker 1: it also is giving me a little like another like

1014
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 1: classic tragic fairy tale element where like the Little Mermaid

1015
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 1: turns to foam at the end of the story, where

1016
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 1: it's just it also feels like there's maybe a whiff

1017
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:24,480
Speaker 1: of misogyny mixed in there as well, which is again

1018
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:28,600
Speaker 1: like a confusing thing to happen in a movie that

1019
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:32,240
Speaker 1: seems to be really wanting to present itself, and the

1020
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 1: way it was marketed and the way it was like

1021
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:39,080
Speaker 1: Awards seasoned, was as a progressive reimagining of a fairy tale.

1022
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 1: So if that is the tack you're taking in promoting

1023
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:49,440
Speaker 1: your movie, um, a glaring kind of turning turning away

1024
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:54,240
Speaker 1: when it comes to disability, is I think, you know,

1025
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 1: kind of irresponsible and worthy of further discussion because it is,

1026
01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:01,160
Speaker 1: I mean, and we've been guilty of this in like

1027
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 1: the early backdel cast days. Disability is so often left

1028
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:09,479
Speaker 1: out of film criticism and discussion, and for a movie

1029
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:12,640
Speaker 1: that's marketing itself as like, you know, because this movie

1030
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:16,200
Speaker 1: does try to, and I think successfully in many cases,

1031
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:21,840
Speaker 1: address a lot of society's prejudices. And I think it does.

1032
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:26,360
Speaker 1: Think it's saying something about disability, but it rings patronizing

1033
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:29,520
Speaker 1: because it's like, oh, look, she got accepted by somebody,

1034
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 1: and like by a big old fish, and you're like, well,

1035
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:35,480
Speaker 1: fuck you kind of and but like this this movie does,

1036
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 1: I guess I'm kind of transitioning into a different bucket

1037
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:45,160
Speaker 1: of discussion. This movie does at least touch on racism

1038
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:47,760
Speaker 1: because this is happening in nineteen sixty two, around the

1039
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:51,800
Speaker 1: Civil rights era that we see an example of just

1040
01:07:51,840 --> 01:07:54,280
Speaker 1: in general, I mean, like people of color in this

1041
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 1: movie are treated as lesser than and then most explicitly

1042
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 1: in that scene in the pie shop that just all

1043
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 1: of a sudden, like what I mean, I'm not I

1044
01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:06,320
Speaker 1: don't even mean this as a criticism, but like it

1045
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:10,520
Speaker 1: turns out like Pieman is evil, um like really abruptly

1046
01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 1: like he because we've just seen him as like, hey,

1047
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:15,960
Speaker 1: welcome to the pie shop. I'm that hot guy who

1048
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:18,360
Speaker 1: sells pies. And then it was like, I'm homophobic, and

1049
01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:20,200
Speaker 1: then he's like, and I'm racist, and then the scene

1050
01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:24,599
Speaker 1: is over and it's I mean nineteen sixty two, and

1051
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:28,559
Speaker 1: now there are certainly people like that. I was just like, whoa, whoa,

1052
01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:31,360
Speaker 1: and then the scene is over and it doesn't come back. Um,

1053
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:36,240
Speaker 1: I have so here here are my thoughts on the matter.

1054
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:40,439
Speaker 1: So a lot of people point out when discussing this

1055
01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:45,840
Speaker 1: movie that like, yeah, it's it's an inclusive movie where

1056
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:51,439
Speaker 1: you know, you have Uh, the protagonist is a disabled woman. Um,

1057
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:54,519
Speaker 1: her best friend is a black woman, her other best

1058
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 1: friend is a queer man. And I think the movie

1059
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:02,400
Speaker 1: is suggesting it like these are people who were on

1060
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:06,040
Speaker 1: the fringes of society in the sixties. Like these are

1061
01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 1: marginalized people who became friends because of the kind of

1062
01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:14,680
Speaker 1: this common ground they share of being marginalized by you know,

1063
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:20,000
Speaker 1: like white, able bodied just had to row Michael Shannon patriarchy.

1064
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:23,000
Speaker 1: Mr Michael Shannon in the case of this movie specifically

1065
01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:28,120
Speaker 1: Michael Shannon. Yes, so that you have this like quote

1066
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:35,120
Speaker 1: unquote diverse cast of main characters. However, I felt that

1067
01:09:35,280 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 1: the way some of these characters were portrayed and characterized

1068
01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 1: in the movie felt like it was leaning into some

1069
01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:48,200
Speaker 1: stereotypes where if you look at Zelda played by Octavia Spencer,

1070
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 1: I mean, she's doing an incredible job and she's you know,

1071
01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:54,000
Speaker 1: doing as much as she can with what she's given.

1072
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:56,600
Speaker 1: But I like this very much falls into the like

1073
01:09:57,360 --> 01:10:01,120
Speaker 1: black friends supporting a white protagonist, and also I would argue,

1074
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:05,360
Speaker 1: like the sasty black friend stereotype. Yeah, I think that

1075
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:07,360
Speaker 1: this movie like attempts to give her a little bit

1076
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:11,920
Speaker 1: more characterization with a subplot with her husband, which I

1077
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:15,759
Speaker 1: feel like doesn't really cut cut the mustard in that case,

1078
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:17,960
Speaker 1: Like the only background you're going to be given is

1079
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:22,640
Speaker 1: that she appears to be in an emotionally volatile relationship

1080
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:26,519
Speaker 1: with her husband. Um right, Like that's all you're going

1081
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:28,800
Speaker 1: to give us for a background for a character that,

1082
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 1: as you're saying, like does not as aggressively as many movies,

1083
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:37,000
Speaker 1: but does fall back on some tropes. This movie feels

1084
01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:41,439
Speaker 1: very like because I mean because it was released early

1085
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:46,320
Speaker 1: into the Trump years, and you can like I can't

1086
01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:49,280
Speaker 1: quite like put my finger on like how but you

1087
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:52,800
Speaker 1: can you can feel that right in a way that

1088
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 1: like I don't even need to be like disparaging towards

1089
01:10:55,479 --> 01:10:58,560
Speaker 1: the filmmakers, but it's just like they're trying to be inclusive.

1090
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:01,880
Speaker 1: They want to like make a statement, but it's like

1091
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:06,639
Speaker 1: not really quite there, but they really think they're doing something.

1092
01:11:06,720 --> 01:11:09,519
Speaker 1: It just it feels like a lot of early into

1093
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 1: the Trump years media, especially because this was trying to

1094
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:16,240
Speaker 1: say everything at once and kind of saying not much

1095
01:11:16,439 --> 01:11:20,520
Speaker 1: and not executing it very well or very like intersectionally.

1096
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:24,880
Speaker 1: Um right, because like this movie came out in but

1097
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:28,080
Speaker 1: it would have been shot, you know, over the course

1098
01:11:28,080 --> 01:11:32,040
Speaker 1: of many months, if not like a full year before that.

1099
01:11:32,160 --> 01:11:35,760
Speaker 1: It would have been written and developed probably a couple

1100
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:38,680
Speaker 1: of years even before that. So like but by the

1101
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:41,960
Speaker 1: time the movie comes out, Del Toro is like speaking

1102
01:11:42,439 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 1: with specificity about this where um, I think he presented

1103
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:51,680
Speaker 1: also because um as like a story with parallels to

1104
01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:56,640
Speaker 1: the immigration experience, he said in an interview for this,

1105
01:11:56,760 --> 01:11:58,360
Speaker 1: which I think was like a lot of what he

1106
01:11:58,439 --> 01:12:00,760
Speaker 1: was touching on and was had to do with his

1107
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:04,680
Speaker 1: personal connection to the story as well as you know,

1108
01:12:04,720 --> 01:12:08,360
Speaker 1: the really clear parallels between old monster movies Creature from

1109
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:13,799
Speaker 1: the Black Lagoon specifically obviously, but so he says, quote,

1110
01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:15,920
Speaker 1: I feel it as an immigrant that has been received

1111
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:18,719
Speaker 1: by this country, but I feel there is a sort

1112
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:22,000
Speaker 1: of the demonization of the other very present. I needed

1113
01:12:22,040 --> 01:12:24,880
Speaker 1: to talk about the beauty of the other. So the

1114
01:12:24,920 --> 01:12:27,439
Speaker 1: way that he talks about this movie, I think he

1115
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 1: leans more on Doug Jones Fishman versus Eliza and Zelda

1116
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 1: and Giles, which I think is perhaps part of the

1117
01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:43,800
Speaker 1: reason that they are kind of softly stereotyped in some ways,

1118
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:47,839
Speaker 1: where it's like the focus is we want the audience

1119
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:51,360
Speaker 1: to empathize with the Fishman because he represents the monster

1120
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:55,000
Speaker 1: the other that has been used throughout cinematic history. To

1121
01:12:55,680 --> 01:13:01,439
Speaker 1: look at me saying cinematic is happy birth the Yeah, mensa,

1122
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:06,280
Speaker 1: it's kind of not. But and I get and I

1123
01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:08,400
Speaker 1: and I like it. Seems like it was at the

1124
01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:12,759
Speaker 1: core of his mission to take this monstrous quote unquote

1125
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:17,040
Speaker 1: character that has been used as coding for a lot

1126
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:21,800
Speaker 1: of marginalized groups over the years, and to flip that

1127
01:13:22,320 --> 01:13:27,599
Speaker 1: and use this group of marginalized characters who see that

1128
01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:31,960
Speaker 1: in the Monster empathize with him and encourage audiences to

1129
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:35,000
Speaker 1: do the same. So he's encouraging people to look at

1130
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:38,160
Speaker 1: media from the past a little more critically, even if

1131
01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:41,599
Speaker 1: you love it, always supportive of that like, I feel

1132
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:44,120
Speaker 1: like I understand what his core mission is. I think

1133
01:13:44,160 --> 01:13:47,599
Speaker 1: it's like a good, righteous mission to have that fits

1134
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:50,160
Speaker 1: into his body of work really well, because you could

1135
01:13:50,200 --> 01:13:52,519
Speaker 1: even you could argue that for a fucking hill boy, right,

1136
01:13:52,600 --> 01:13:55,960
Speaker 1: Like this is like a through line in his work

1137
01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:58,280
Speaker 1: that I think is really cool. But it's like we're

1138
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:01,479
Speaker 1: saying it's it's in the execution of like that message

1139
01:14:01,520 --> 01:14:03,320
Speaker 1: is kind of ring a little hollow if you're falling

1140
01:14:03,320 --> 01:14:07,600
Speaker 1: back on trope for the marginalized characters that are like

1141
01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:11,840
Speaker 1: surrounding the fish guy, right, Because like, again going back

1142
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 1: to Zelda, you have, like I feel like she's pretty

1143
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:17,840
Speaker 1: one dimensional, and then the kind of one attempt to

1144
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:20,519
Speaker 1: give her a little bit more dimensionality is with this

1145
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:23,800
Speaker 1: like subplot with her husband, which also just ends up

1146
01:14:23,840 --> 01:14:28,040
Speaker 1: playing into stereotypes of kind of like a deadbeat husband.

1147
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:32,120
Speaker 1: It gives her this moment of empowerment over him because

1148
01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:34,000
Speaker 1: like because she stands up to him at the end,

1149
01:14:34,040 --> 01:14:36,679
Speaker 1: but like she has a girl boss moment. But that's

1150
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:38,840
Speaker 1: also the scene where that happens is the first time

1151
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:42,599
Speaker 1: we are like really meeting that character. So ultimately it's

1152
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:46,400
Speaker 1: hard to like I'm rooting for Zelda to have more

1153
01:14:46,439 --> 01:14:49,120
Speaker 1: of a character to work with, but it's like the

1154
01:14:49,160 --> 01:14:51,200
Speaker 1: movie makes it hard for you to be like woo

1155
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:53,599
Speaker 1: who in that moment because we've never seen this guy before.

1156
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:57,160
Speaker 1: We just about him in passing. And then the other

1157
01:14:57,280 --> 01:15:01,880
Speaker 1: black characters in the movie are either you only get

1158
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:05,080
Speaker 1: tiny glimpses of them, you really learn nothing about them,

1159
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:06,720
Speaker 1: and it feels like a lot of times they're just

1160
01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:11,479
Speaker 1: used to show that another character is racist, or there's

1161
01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:14,840
Speaker 1: that there's a weird scene where Eliza is watching a

1162
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:22,080
Speaker 1: newscast about civil rights protests and like violence enacted against protesters,

1163
01:15:22,120 --> 01:15:25,800
Speaker 1: and Giles just like turn that off, and it's like, what,

1164
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:29,679
Speaker 1: why is that? Why is I was kind of curious

1165
01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:33,320
Speaker 1: what the message was behind that, because I'm just like, right,

1166
01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:38,200
Speaker 1: you know, I would hear the writers out, but I'm

1167
01:15:38,240 --> 01:15:40,639
Speaker 1: just like, why include that? Like it just just really

1168
01:15:41,040 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 1: I think that that was just like again, a really

1169
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:46,240
Speaker 1: lazy like way to remind you, like the era that

1170
01:15:46,280 --> 01:15:48,920
Speaker 1: this is taking place. And but it makes Giles seem

1171
01:15:49,080 --> 01:15:53,559
Speaker 1: very dismissive towards the struggles of black Americans, which is

1172
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:55,880
Speaker 1: doesn't appear to be canonical to his character at all,

1173
01:15:56,080 --> 01:15:59,960
Speaker 1: because later he is like fuck you to the home

1174
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:04,719
Speaker 1: a phobic racist, right. It just feels like a way

1175
01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:09,640
Speaker 1: for the movie to acknowledge that that was what was

1176
01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:12,840
Speaker 1: happening at the time this movie takes place, because a

1177
01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:17,000
Speaker 1: lot of movies period pictures from that time or movies

1178
01:16:17,040 --> 01:16:20,840
Speaker 1: that made in that time didn't acknowledge it. So it's

1179
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:23,080
Speaker 1: like this movie is like, we're acknowledging that this was

1180
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:25,920
Speaker 1: taking place, but it doesn't want to like engage with it.

1181
01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:28,720
Speaker 1: Really it is. It does feel maybe this is like

1182
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:32,439
Speaker 1: closer to the Trump era movie thing where it's like

1183
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:36,080
Speaker 1: this movie I think has good intentions, but it's like

1184
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 1: biting off more than I can chew, and it's trying

1185
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:42,439
Speaker 1: to like not like solve obviously, but it's like trying

1186
01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:48,320
Speaker 1: to address every societal ill and like especially really something

1187
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:51,160
Speaker 1: that can be done in a two hour movie, especially

1188
01:16:51,200 --> 01:16:55,400
Speaker 1: in the Michael Shannon character, because like, my god, literally patriarchy.

1189
01:16:55,439 --> 01:16:59,200
Speaker 1: The guy, Yeah, he's racist, he's a misogynist. He wants

1190
01:16:59,280 --> 01:17:01,840
Speaker 1: his wife to be silent during a sex scene that

1191
01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:06,160
Speaker 1: is for some reason in the movie, also sexually harasses Eliza.

1192
01:17:06,680 --> 01:17:09,599
Speaker 1: He's like one of those like America number one guys.

1193
01:17:09,640 --> 01:17:13,599
Speaker 1: He like very clearly has a very fragile male ego.

1194
01:17:14,120 --> 01:17:16,519
Speaker 1: He's very classist to the point where and I think

1195
01:17:16,560 --> 01:17:20,439
Speaker 1: there's like interesting commentary here that like no one even

1196
01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:24,360
Speaker 1: considers he's amazing at playing this role. Like Michel Shannon

1197
01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:28,559
Speaker 1: as Patriarchy the Guy, he's very good at it. But

1198
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:31,240
Speaker 1: it's like, like we've been talking about on the show

1199
01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:34,879
Speaker 1: four years now, beginning with Our Girl the Dragon Tattoo

1200
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:38,120
Speaker 1: episode question Mark, Like that's just kind of and I

1201
01:17:38,320 --> 01:17:41,360
Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, I can like hear defenders

1202
01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:44,479
Speaker 1: of this movie, which I have a lot of love for.

1203
01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:47,000
Speaker 1: For the record, I chose it from my damn birthday movie.

1204
01:17:47,320 --> 01:17:49,360
Speaker 1: I can hear defenders of this movie being like, well,

1205
01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:51,559
Speaker 1: it's a fair it's a fairy tale, so the characters

1206
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:54,760
Speaker 1: tend to be a little broad. True, But like I

1207
01:17:54,800 --> 01:17:57,479
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, kind of cherry picking, like what

1208
01:17:57,720 --> 01:18:00,679
Speaker 1: we're subverting and what we're not. Patrio Archy the Guy

1209
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:02,920
Speaker 1: is just not an effective storytelling tool. I feel like

1210
01:18:02,920 --> 01:18:05,720
Speaker 1: at this point that should be obviously maybe I mean,

1211
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:08,479
Speaker 1: but also I think that there was an element of

1212
01:18:09,880 --> 01:18:14,519
Speaker 1: cathartic energy behind Patriarchy the Guy as a character early

1213
01:18:14,600 --> 01:18:19,840
Speaker 1: in the Trump administration. Um only because I, in my opinion, Um,

1214
01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:22,200
Speaker 1: this movie came out I think it came out post

1215
01:18:22,240 --> 01:18:26,280
Speaker 1: Me Too, but was certainly produced Prey. But you know,

1216
01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:31,120
Speaker 1: because there were not a ton of public discussions about

1217
01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:37,840
Speaker 1: misogyny that were treated as culturally serious. Seeing patriarchy, the

1218
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:40,759
Speaker 1: guy taken down a peg and killed and blah blah blah,

1219
01:18:40,840 --> 01:18:43,680
Speaker 1: like there was some sort of I feel like there

1220
01:18:43,720 --> 01:18:47,360
Speaker 1: was a cathartic element to it at that time, but

1221
01:18:47,439 --> 01:18:50,320
Speaker 1: now that things have moved on, it's just like, even

1222
01:18:50,360 --> 01:18:53,080
Speaker 1: if it is a cathartic storytelling tool for some people,

1223
01:18:53,160 --> 01:18:55,639
Speaker 1: I'm kind of over and honestly, like, I just don't

1224
01:18:55,640 --> 01:18:59,200
Speaker 1: think it's a very effective way to make any commentary because,

1225
01:18:59,320 --> 01:19:02,080
Speaker 1: like we've talked about a million times, it's far more

1226
01:19:02,160 --> 01:19:08,080
Speaker 1: likely to experience, you know, discrimination of many kinds from

1227
01:19:08,680 --> 01:19:11,760
Speaker 1: a guy that is just kind of a guy. And

1228
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:15,200
Speaker 1: that is the problem. And that's like why prejudice is

1229
01:19:15,240 --> 01:19:18,360
Speaker 1: so proudicious, because it's just cooked into people that you know,

1230
01:19:18,439 --> 01:19:23,240
Speaker 1: it's not like, I mean, there are you know, bigoted

1231
01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:27,080
Speaker 1: supervillains out there, unfortunately, and it seems like there's more

1232
01:19:27,160 --> 01:19:30,599
Speaker 1: all the fucking time, But it just doesn't feel like

1233
01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:34,240
Speaker 1: the most powerful storytelling tool to wrap up every single

1234
01:19:34,240 --> 01:19:37,240
Speaker 1: prejudice in one guy and then kill that guy and

1235
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:40,760
Speaker 1: be like we did um yeah, yeah, I was. I

1236
01:19:40,800 --> 01:19:43,240
Speaker 1: was certing to say that, I think the most the

1237
01:19:43,280 --> 01:19:46,640
Speaker 1: way that his characters is or maybe not even his

1238
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:50,479
Speaker 1: you can't even attribute this to his character specifically, But

1239
01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:55,519
Speaker 1: the most effective use of commentary when it comes to

1240
01:19:56,280 --> 01:20:00,879
Speaker 1: people's prejudices in this movie is that no one even

1241
01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:09,000
Speaker 1: suspects Eliza as being the fishman heister like Steeler because

1242
01:20:09,040 --> 01:20:13,960
Speaker 1: of her like class and position, and no one even

1243
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:17,080
Speaker 1: considers that it could be you know, like a cleaning

1244
01:20:17,120 --> 01:20:20,320
Speaker 1: person could pull this off sort of thing. But other

1245
01:20:20,400 --> 01:20:22,559
Speaker 1: than that, yeah, I didn't. I thought that was like,

1246
01:20:22,680 --> 01:20:25,720
Speaker 1: that was one of the more effective Yeah, that's what

1247
01:20:25,760 --> 01:20:28,760
Speaker 1: I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. Everything else was like, yeah, this

1248
01:20:28,880 --> 01:20:32,840
Speaker 1: just feels too cartoonish. Yeah, like it's it's very broad,

1249
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:35,880
Speaker 1: I think. Also, I just wanted to single out because

1250
01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:39,479
Speaker 1: Michael Shannon represents so much in this world, I just

1251
01:20:39,479 --> 01:20:41,360
Speaker 1: wanted to like single out a few things that I

1252
01:20:41,400 --> 01:20:47,360
Speaker 1: found particularly evil about him. He is openly racist to

1253
01:20:48,320 --> 01:20:52,480
Speaker 1: Zelda's character, like treats her as if she is like uneducated,

1254
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:55,400
Speaker 1: to the point where she is not able to understand

1255
01:20:55,479 --> 01:20:57,639
Speaker 1: what is going on. Around her, or that she couldn't

1256
01:20:57,640 --> 01:21:02,599
Speaker 1: possibly understand what the people of higher class who are

1257
01:21:02,640 --> 01:21:07,720
Speaker 1: mostly white like could be doing. It's like incredibly patronizing.

1258
01:21:08,560 --> 01:21:15,320
Speaker 1: He fetishizes Eliza for her disability and patronizes her for it,

1259
01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:19,959
Speaker 1: and you know, attempts to like he he assaults multiple

1260
01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:23,960
Speaker 1: people throughout the movie. Um, I would say that that

1261
01:21:24,160 --> 01:21:26,759
Speaker 1: sex scene with his wife, I mean, it's very fucking gross,

1262
01:21:26,760 --> 01:21:29,479
Speaker 1: but I think it also like really tiptoes up to

1263
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:34,000
Speaker 1: the fucking line of fucking marital rape because he's like

1264
01:21:34,120 --> 01:21:36,680
Speaker 1: bleeding on her face and she's like, can you not

1265
01:21:36,760 --> 01:21:40,880
Speaker 1: bleed on my face? And he's like shut up. Didn't

1266
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:42,800
Speaker 1: need that scene, But I guess we just need this

1267
01:21:42,840 --> 01:21:44,759
Speaker 1: to be the most evil guy in the entire world.

1268
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:47,679
Speaker 1: He represents America or whatever America's were on in Corpse.

1269
01:21:47,680 --> 01:21:49,840
Speaker 1: I don't disagree, but like I don't need to see

1270
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:54,360
Speaker 1: him you know, harass, you know, like sexually mistreat his

1271
01:21:54,400 --> 01:21:58,320
Speaker 1: own wife. And also also she did this thing that

1272
01:21:58,400 --> 01:22:02,160
Speaker 1: did you catch this? She like smel his hand before

1273
01:22:02,240 --> 01:22:03,880
Speaker 1: she would have sex with him, which I think it

1274
01:22:03,920 --> 01:22:06,080
Speaker 1: means to imply that he is a serial cheater and

1275
01:22:06,160 --> 01:22:11,400
Speaker 1: comes home smelling like vagina. I didn't make that connection,

1276
01:22:11,479 --> 01:22:15,840
Speaker 1: but I can see it. It's just that marriage. I

1277
01:22:16,439 --> 01:22:19,000
Speaker 1: feel for his his wife. I feel for that character.

1278
01:22:19,200 --> 01:22:22,639
Speaker 1: We don't get to know over very well. Um. But yeah,

1279
01:22:22,760 --> 01:22:25,400
Speaker 1: like I just want to single out especially like his

1280
01:22:26,080 --> 01:22:30,200
Speaker 1: fetishizing Alliesa's disability. I just think it's like it really

1281
01:22:30,240 --> 01:22:34,240
Speaker 1: grows certainly something that I know happens in the world.

1282
01:22:34,320 --> 01:22:37,559
Speaker 1: But it just seems like again another like big issue

1283
01:22:37,680 --> 01:22:40,920
Speaker 1: to like take a bite out of and then essentially

1284
01:22:41,439 --> 01:22:44,639
Speaker 1: make no meaningful statement about outside of like this is wrong,

1285
01:22:45,479 --> 01:22:47,000
Speaker 1: which is more than a lot of movies do. But

1286
01:22:47,040 --> 01:22:49,640
Speaker 1: it's just I don't know, Yeah, movies that try to

1287
01:22:49,680 --> 01:22:53,439
Speaker 1: attack every single um problem in the world. There, it's

1288
01:22:53,520 --> 01:22:57,000
Speaker 1: just there's not the bandwidth. I guess not in the

1289
01:22:57,080 --> 01:23:01,200
Speaker 1: shape of water. Uh. Going on the continuing on that

1290
01:23:01,400 --> 01:23:06,320
Speaker 1: line of thinking, I wanted to touch on queerness in

1291
01:23:06,360 --> 01:23:10,280
Speaker 1: the movie, specifically when it comes to Giles's character Richard

1292
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:15,479
Speaker 1: Jenkins icon love him, love all of his cats. His

1293
01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:18,400
Speaker 1: character's cats are I P the one r I P.

1294
01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:21,800
Speaker 1: I forget what the cat's name was, but he just

1295
01:23:21,840 --> 01:23:33,200
Speaker 1: like soantly. Yeah. He literally was like Richard Jenkins is

1296
01:23:33,280 --> 01:23:37,040
Speaker 1: like the fishman ate my cat and the cat has

1297
01:23:37,080 --> 01:23:39,439
Speaker 1: a name? Does that pass the back to the new dog,

1298
01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:42,599
Speaker 1: ate my the new dog, ate my homework, the fish,

1299
01:23:42,680 --> 01:23:44,960
Speaker 1: and ate my cat. I can't come to work today.

1300
01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:48,400
Speaker 1: What was the cat's name? It was like it wasn't Sophocles,

1301
01:23:48,439 --> 01:23:50,559
Speaker 1: but it was like something like that. Anyway, it was, yeah,

1302
01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:54,120
Speaker 1: something like that. So Giles is a queer character, and

1303
01:23:55,600 --> 01:23:59,719
Speaker 1: we see him be rejected. We see he's a lonely person.

1304
01:23:59,800 --> 01:24:02,880
Speaker 1: He constantly talks about how lonely he is all the time,

1305
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:06,439
Speaker 1: and that's not coming from nowhere, you know, Like feelings

1306
01:24:06,439 --> 01:24:09,800
Speaker 1: of isolation and loneliness are certainly something that a lot

1307
01:24:09,800 --> 01:24:13,920
Speaker 1: of queer people have experienced throughout history. It's also implied

1308
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:18,920
Speaker 1: that he is a recovering alcoholic covering alcoholic, and that

1309
01:24:19,040 --> 01:24:24,080
Speaker 1: he maybe was fired from his job, possibly for his alcoholism,

1310
01:24:24,160 --> 01:24:27,360
Speaker 1: but also possibly for being gay. That's yeah, and that's

1311
01:24:27,400 --> 01:24:31,599
Speaker 1: never made explicitly. Like his side quest, you get more

1312
01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:35,720
Speaker 1: with Drials than with any other secondary character, but it's

1313
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:39,160
Speaker 1: still like doesn't land in a very satisfying way because

1314
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:43,160
Speaker 1: you're like, was he fired for? Like why even include

1315
01:24:43,479 --> 01:24:48,439
Speaker 1: addiction issues? If? Like it just was confusing again, too much,

1316
01:24:48,479 --> 01:24:51,040
Speaker 1: too much, biting off more than it can chew. Yes,

1317
01:24:51,360 --> 01:24:53,960
Speaker 1: So for me, like to have your one queer character

1318
01:24:54,160 --> 01:24:57,160
Speaker 1: in the movie where like the movie goes out of

1319
01:24:57,200 --> 01:25:00,960
Speaker 1: its way to show him be rejected by crushed, and

1320
01:25:01,040 --> 01:25:05,320
Speaker 1: that only happens to motivate his choice to help out

1321
01:25:05,439 --> 01:25:08,519
Speaker 1: the straight protagonist and although like can we even call

1322
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:12,519
Speaker 1: her straight when her sexuality includes being attracted to fish people?

1323
01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:17,600
Speaker 1: My point is I felt like his queerness was just

1324
01:25:17,680 --> 01:25:23,519
Speaker 1: kind of used in the way that like racism and

1325
01:25:23,560 --> 01:25:26,479
Speaker 1: like the acknowledgment of the civil rights movement is just

1326
01:25:26,560 --> 01:25:29,519
Speaker 1: sort of like used to be like, well, yeah, we're

1327
01:25:29,560 --> 01:25:32,920
Speaker 1: touching on these things. Yeah, we're being inclusive, but like

1328
01:25:33,280 --> 01:25:35,920
Speaker 1: not meaningfully or not in a way that felt like

1329
01:25:36,040 --> 01:25:40,400
Speaker 1: and only like tragically, like it's yeah, yeah, no one

1330
01:25:40,439 --> 01:25:43,760
Speaker 1: gets a satisfying romantic Like all the relationships in this

1331
01:25:43,800 --> 01:25:48,240
Speaker 1: movie like don't end very well because like Eliza and

1332
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:52,800
Speaker 1: the fish Man have it best and they die, uh,

1333
01:25:53,400 --> 01:25:58,920
Speaker 1: like Giles gets rejected. Zelda gets like one up on

1334
01:25:59,160 --> 01:26:03,920
Speaker 1: her emotionally volatile husband who doesn't respect her, but presumably

1335
01:26:03,960 --> 01:26:07,400
Speaker 1: they are. She's still stuck in that marriage. Hard to say,

1336
01:26:07,520 --> 01:26:11,360
Speaker 1: we know, really nothing's not like she's going to leave him.

1337
01:26:11,400 --> 01:26:14,320
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like no idea. I guess maybe the

1338
01:26:14,680 --> 01:26:17,840
Speaker 1: only person who wins is Michael Shannon's wife because he dies,

1339
01:26:17,960 --> 01:26:20,760
Speaker 1: Because he dies enough, she's free from him. But she

1340
01:26:20,840 --> 01:26:23,240
Speaker 1: seems to really be into him and confused in a

1341
01:26:23,320 --> 01:26:27,640
Speaker 1: confusing way. It seems like she well confusing. Yeah, it

1342
01:26:27,720 --> 01:26:32,120
Speaker 1: just seems like relationship wise, um, it's all really sad

1343
01:26:32,120 --> 01:26:36,760
Speaker 1: at the very bleak um. But yeah, that's that's kind

1344
01:26:36,800 --> 01:26:39,000
Speaker 1: of all I had. Did you have anything else you

1345
01:26:39,040 --> 01:26:43,320
Speaker 1: wanted to discuss? Um? I just wanted to quickly. I

1346
01:26:43,360 --> 01:26:45,960
Speaker 1: mean we we sort of talked about it really quick.

1347
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:50,720
Speaker 1: But the fishman, I love him. I do think that

1348
01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:54,120
Speaker 1: the criticism of like do we understand why these two

1349
01:26:54,200 --> 01:26:58,440
Speaker 1: characters fall in love with each other outside of metaphorical purposes?

1350
01:26:58,960 --> 01:27:02,439
Speaker 1: Not really, I would have to have seen more. Um.

1351
01:27:02,479 --> 01:27:06,560
Speaker 1: I also think it's like kind of very like fantastical

1352
01:27:06,680 --> 01:27:10,920
Speaker 1: and like whatever, turning one culture into like a monolith

1353
01:27:11,040 --> 01:27:13,800
Speaker 1: to be like, oh, he's a South American god and

1354
01:27:13,840 --> 01:27:18,160
Speaker 1: you're like what, um again? Like yet another of like

1355
01:27:18,479 --> 01:27:22,880
Speaker 1: it's clear that you know Americans are mining this area

1356
01:27:23,000 --> 01:27:25,600
Speaker 1: for oil. It's like the movie trying to comment on

1357
01:27:25,640 --> 01:27:29,600
Speaker 1: another societal ill but but not really doing much with it,

1358
01:27:29,840 --> 01:27:32,800
Speaker 1: glossing over it. Yeah, I do think that like the

1359
01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:37,800
Speaker 1: way that the Fishman is characterized is generally pretty cool.

1360
01:27:38,080 --> 01:27:40,200
Speaker 1: Like I know that he is supposed to be canonically

1361
01:27:40,320 --> 01:27:45,439
Speaker 1: a movie monster, but I don't view him that way

1362
01:27:45,479 --> 01:27:49,719
Speaker 1: because we are like encouraged to empathize with him so much. Um,

1363
01:27:49,840 --> 01:27:53,120
Speaker 1: we know that he's been through a lot. We see,

1364
01:27:53,240 --> 01:27:57,920
Speaker 1: you know, how brutally mistreated he is and that being

1365
01:27:57,960 --> 01:28:03,360
Speaker 1: treated with compassion, and I really love him. I get

1366
01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:08,120
Speaker 1: the issues surrounding the character. Um, but I thought it

1367
01:28:08,160 --> 01:28:13,479
Speaker 1: was like he and Eliza, you know, they fuck and

1368
01:28:13,880 --> 01:28:18,200
Speaker 1: we celebrate that, and that is that whole sexual relationship

1369
01:28:18,560 --> 01:28:22,120
Speaker 1: felt to me like, you know, she initiated, which is cool.

1370
01:28:22,120 --> 01:28:25,519
Speaker 1: You don't see that in a movie a lot. And um,

1371
01:28:25,560 --> 01:28:29,120
Speaker 1: you know iconic that there's an Oscar winning fish sex movie.

1372
01:28:29,320 --> 01:28:32,759
Speaker 1: That is really you can take that from something you

1373
01:28:32,800 --> 01:28:37,240
Speaker 1: simply can't forget. I do. I love the female masturbation

1374
01:28:37,560 --> 01:28:41,680
Speaker 1: is represented on screen because it rarely is as a

1375
01:28:41,680 --> 01:28:45,000
Speaker 1: normal part of a morning routine. I love how horny

1376
01:28:45,160 --> 01:28:48,439
Speaker 1: that character is and just to um and it is

1377
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:52,360
Speaker 1: normalized and it's normalized. And again shout out to Kristin

1378
01:28:52,439 --> 01:28:55,280
Speaker 1: Lopez's peace in The Hollywood Reporter will link to it

1379
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:59,639
Speaker 1: as well. Um But Kristen writes about how disabled characters

1380
01:28:59,640 --> 01:29:04,720
Speaker 1: and media are often presented as lacking sexuality or not

1381
01:29:04,800 --> 01:29:09,200
Speaker 1: having any sexual desires, and that media about characters with

1382
01:29:09,240 --> 01:29:13,479
Speaker 1: disabilities tends to focus on straight white men. So Shape

1383
01:29:13,479 --> 01:29:16,599
Speaker 1: of Water presents kind of an interesting subversion to these

1384
01:29:16,640 --> 01:29:22,080
Speaker 1: tropes because it focuses on a disabled woman and allows

1385
01:29:22,080 --> 01:29:25,559
Speaker 1: her to be a very sexual being. So, you know,

1386
01:29:27,240 --> 01:29:31,920
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. I appreciate a horny woman on screen.

1387
01:29:32,280 --> 01:29:35,519
Speaker 1: I also liked that the movie didn't get like into

1388
01:29:36,240 --> 01:29:39,559
Speaker 1: her past sex life, because I feel like that is like,

1389
01:29:40,400 --> 01:29:43,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, I just this movie is so chaotically

1390
01:29:43,720 --> 01:29:46,280
Speaker 1: trying to address everything that it's like, we don't really

1391
01:29:46,280 --> 01:29:48,360
Speaker 1: know what her sexual past is, but we know that

1392
01:29:48,439 --> 01:29:50,800
Speaker 1: like she lets when she's like interested, she's going to

1393
01:29:50,920 --> 01:29:54,200
Speaker 1: let you know. And it seems like consent was above

1394
01:29:54,240 --> 01:29:56,120
Speaker 1: the board. Again you're like, it's a fish bed, So

1395
01:29:56,160 --> 01:29:58,840
Speaker 1: we don't know, but if it's felt, it felt like

1396
01:29:58,920 --> 01:30:03,360
Speaker 1: there was some thought and care put into that. Yeah,

1397
01:30:03,360 --> 01:30:06,120
Speaker 1: this movie is I don't know if it's if it

1398
01:30:06,200 --> 01:30:09,760
Speaker 1: quite goes into my guilty pleasure category, but you know,

1399
01:30:09,880 --> 01:30:11,599
Speaker 1: on the right on the right day and the right

1400
01:30:11,640 --> 01:30:15,040
Speaker 1: mood shape of water. You know, it's it's it's a

1401
01:30:15,080 --> 01:30:18,160
Speaker 1: movie that I'll turn on sure because the cast is

1402
01:30:18,200 --> 01:30:20,559
Speaker 1: so good. The score also, that's like kind of out

1403
01:30:20,560 --> 01:30:22,840
Speaker 1: of our purview, but I think the score is so beautiful.

1404
01:30:25,080 --> 01:30:27,599
Speaker 1: With the fish and the egg, yes, it's I mean

1405
01:30:27,640 --> 01:30:30,120
Speaker 1: it's a beauty. It's a deultura movie. It's like beautiful,

1406
01:30:31,240 --> 01:30:36,920
Speaker 1: and the fishman hot loves eggs and sex and has

1407
01:30:36,920 --> 01:30:40,679
Speaker 1: a thigh gap and really tight a little. But yeah,

1408
01:30:41,800 --> 01:30:45,280
Speaker 1: So ultimately I would say that it does pass the

1409
01:30:45,320 --> 01:30:49,080
Speaker 1: Backtel test, yes, in a way that but often don't

1410
01:30:49,120 --> 01:30:53,080
Speaker 1: come across on the buttle on. It passes the Backtel

1411
01:30:53,080 --> 01:30:55,240
Speaker 1: tests in a way that we don't often come across

1412
01:30:55,320 --> 01:30:59,920
Speaker 1: because we are used to seeing like verbal spoken communication

1413
01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:04,600
Speaker 1: and between characters of marginalized genders when it comes to

1414
01:31:04,640 --> 01:31:08,960
Speaker 1: a movie passing. But for example, many scenes, well, actually

1415
01:31:09,560 --> 01:31:12,880
Speaker 1: a lot of the conversations between Eliza and Zelda are

1416
01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:19,160
Speaker 1: either about the fish man, Zelda's unappreciative husband, or Michael

1417
01:31:19,160 --> 01:31:23,559
Speaker 1: Shannon's character. Um, so they talk about men a lot.

1418
01:31:23,640 --> 01:31:27,599
Speaker 1: I think there are like isolated conversations where they are

1419
01:31:27,640 --> 01:31:30,280
Speaker 1: you know where they are not talking about a man

1420
01:31:30,720 --> 01:31:33,519
Speaker 1: um but communicating in a way that again, like we

1421
01:31:33,520 --> 01:31:36,920
Speaker 1: don't often see on screen because we don't often see

1422
01:31:37,800 --> 01:31:41,720
Speaker 1: sign language being used as as a way of communication. UM,

1423
01:31:41,840 --> 01:31:45,040
Speaker 1: So just pointing that out that it's nice to see

1424
01:31:45,640 --> 01:31:52,280
Speaker 1: representation of of the Bechtel test being passed via sign language. Yes, yeah,

1425
01:31:52,280 --> 01:31:55,920
Speaker 1: I think that that is a rare pass. I also

1426
01:31:56,040 --> 01:32:00,360
Speaker 1: wanted to shout out that there is um there are

1427
01:32:00,360 --> 01:32:03,519
Speaker 1: two writers credited on this movie, obviously Girima del Toro,

1428
01:32:03,760 --> 01:32:08,679
Speaker 1: but also Vanessa Taylor. She's written a ton she wrote

1429
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:13,759
Speaker 1: the Divergent movie, she wrote on the new Aladdin movie,

1430
01:32:14,080 --> 01:32:18,720
Speaker 1: which was not her fault, ums Shape of Water, she

1431
01:32:18,760 --> 01:32:22,639
Speaker 1: wrote on Game of Thrones, like she's you know, cool,

1432
01:32:22,800 --> 01:32:25,240
Speaker 1: and she also this is they don't leave unless she

1433
01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:30,360
Speaker 1: wrote pabaliology likes, well, look, she's what I'm saying is

1434
01:32:31,000 --> 01:32:33,680
Speaker 1: I think that it is a net positive that you

1435
01:32:33,680 --> 01:32:38,360
Speaker 1: know there that del Toro had a woman as a

1436
01:32:38,479 --> 01:32:42,479
Speaker 1: co writer. So there you go. There is you know,

1437
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:46,599
Speaker 1: it's not just totally men men, men, men, men, men, men, men,

1438
01:32:46,680 --> 01:32:50,920
Speaker 1: men across the board and that was a what is

1439
01:32:50,920 --> 01:32:52,280
Speaker 1: the name of that start? Two and a half men.

1440
01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:57,679
Speaker 1: I almost had two Broke Men two and a half men. Yeah,

1441
01:32:57,720 --> 01:33:00,320
Speaker 1: that's the name of that show Men Men Men. Admit

1442
01:33:00,439 --> 01:33:02,960
Speaker 1: that's like the theme song, is it. I've never watched

1443
01:33:02,960 --> 01:33:07,200
Speaker 1: an episode Bravely, Oh well I had. Yeah, my my

1444
01:33:07,240 --> 01:33:09,920
Speaker 1: grandfather would have that show on in the background sometimes.

1445
01:33:10,080 --> 01:33:12,920
Speaker 1: And yeah, the theme song is just saying men like

1446
01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:17,599
Speaker 1: twenty times. Very cool, very cool. Um, anyways, two broke Men,

1447
01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:21,840
Speaker 1: let's write it. Um yeah, yeah, so let's let's go

1448
01:33:21,880 --> 01:33:23,960
Speaker 1: to the let's hit the nipple scale, shall we. Let's

1449
01:33:23,960 --> 01:33:26,960
Speaker 1: do it zero to five nipples. Based on looking at

1450
01:33:27,000 --> 01:33:31,200
Speaker 1: the movie through an intersectional feminist lens for me, as

1451
01:33:31,240 --> 01:33:36,000
Speaker 1: we've discussed the del Toro's intentions are clear. He wants

1452
01:33:36,040 --> 01:33:41,599
Speaker 1: to He wants to subvert the traditional monster movie, especially

1453
01:33:41,640 --> 01:33:45,840
Speaker 1: because there's been so much kind of like racist and

1454
01:33:46,080 --> 01:33:52,000
Speaker 1: other prejudice coding of monsters in monster movies throughout history.

1455
01:33:52,600 --> 01:33:55,479
Speaker 1: There is so I don't know if you can hear

1456
01:33:55,479 --> 01:34:02,839
Speaker 1: this very European sounding siren because I'm in Amsterdam, barrack.

1457
01:34:04,479 --> 01:34:09,040
Speaker 1: Um so cool. Sorry, that's had to be awesome. I

1458
01:34:09,080 --> 01:34:13,840
Speaker 1: can't even hear it's so awesome. Yeah, sorry for for

1459
01:34:13,880 --> 01:34:17,600
Speaker 1: whatever is happening. But um, yeah, the the the intentions

1460
01:34:17,600 --> 01:34:20,599
Speaker 1: are clear, and it's clear that Garmo do Toro wanted

1461
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:24,639
Speaker 1: to make a progressive story that subverts a lot of

1462
01:34:24,720 --> 01:34:30,560
Speaker 1: harmful tropes and he wanted to be inclusive in his narrative. Unfortunately,

1463
01:34:30,600 --> 01:34:34,519
Speaker 1: the execution of a lot of these things just doesn't

1464
01:34:34,720 --> 01:34:39,759
Speaker 1: quite land or hit the mark. You. You have various

1465
01:34:39,800 --> 01:34:44,200
Speaker 1: ablest implications, you have kind of a lot of tropes

1466
01:34:44,240 --> 01:34:50,760
Speaker 1: as it relates to race and queerness in characters. Just

1467
01:34:50,920 --> 01:34:54,759
Speaker 1: a lot of things that again not executed very well,

1468
01:34:55,320 --> 01:35:01,000
Speaker 1: which makes rating this tricky. Um because the intentions are good, Uh,

1469
01:35:01,040 --> 01:35:04,760
Speaker 1: the execution isn't great. I guess I would give this

1470
01:35:04,800 --> 01:35:07,559
Speaker 1: like two and a half nipples to me. It's one

1471
01:35:07,600 --> 01:35:11,240
Speaker 1: of those like split on the middles. I agree with you. Yeah,

1472
01:35:10,720 --> 01:35:13,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do two and a half as well, because

1473
01:35:13,760 --> 01:35:16,439
Speaker 1: because of the reasons you are describing where it's like.

1474
01:35:16,439 --> 01:35:18,599
Speaker 1: I do think that there was a lot of good

1475
01:35:18,640 --> 01:35:22,120
Speaker 1: intentions behind this movie. I think, even five years later,

1476
01:35:22,320 --> 01:35:28,360
Speaker 1: the kind of gaps in consulting the gap side gaps,

1477
01:35:28,840 --> 01:35:32,639
Speaker 1: the fish thigh gap first of all, an attack, uh

1478
01:35:33,000 --> 01:35:39,400
Speaker 1: fight or flight trigger activated. But yeah, like I just

1479
01:35:39,439 --> 01:35:41,599
Speaker 1: a movie that had good intentions that bit off way

1480
01:35:41,600 --> 01:35:44,479
Speaker 1: more than I could chew, and uh didn't do the

1481
01:35:44,479 --> 01:35:49,800
Speaker 1: consulting necessary to attempt to chew question mark. Right. But

1482
01:35:50,000 --> 01:35:53,520
Speaker 1: it's a sweet movie with it with a good intention,

1483
01:35:54,080 --> 01:35:57,000
Speaker 1: and so I feel like split down the middle makes sense.

1484
01:35:57,640 --> 01:35:59,639
Speaker 1: Who are you given your nipples too? I will give

1485
01:36:00,320 --> 01:36:07,880
Speaker 1: one to Giles's Cats, one to Mrs Brown in the

1486
01:36:07,880 --> 01:36:14,600
Speaker 1: movie Paddington, and I will give my half nipple. Oh no,

1487
01:36:14,880 --> 01:36:18,599
Speaker 1: I want to give a nipple to Octavia Spencer because

1488
01:36:18,840 --> 01:36:22,559
Speaker 1: she's incredible and she's often cast in roles that her

1489
01:36:22,560 --> 01:36:25,679
Speaker 1: full potential is like, we don't we don't see her range.

1490
01:36:25,720 --> 01:36:28,000
Speaker 1: We don't see what she's capable of as an actor

1491
01:36:28,080 --> 01:36:32,040
Speaker 1: because many of the roles that she's cast in are

1492
01:36:34,040 --> 01:36:40,280
Speaker 1: just kind of fish food if you will. Um, But

1493
01:36:40,360 --> 01:36:42,040
Speaker 1: she's great. So I'll give her one of my nipples,

1494
01:36:42,040 --> 01:36:45,400
Speaker 1: and then I'll give my half nipple to Mrs Brown

1495
01:36:45,520 --> 01:36:50,400
Speaker 1: in Paddington. Okay, um, yeah, I'm gonna give all my

1496
01:36:50,479 --> 01:36:53,920
Speaker 1: nipples to myself because it's my birthday. Oh my gosh,

1497
01:36:54,040 --> 01:36:58,720
Speaker 1: happy birthday, Jamie. Do you have anything that you would

1498
01:36:58,720 --> 01:37:02,599
Speaker 1: like to plug? I would like to plug my birthday.

1499
01:37:03,400 --> 01:37:08,280
Speaker 1: I would like to plug. Um. Yeah, you know, listen

1500
01:37:08,360 --> 01:37:12,040
Speaker 1: to Ghost Church listen a little listen A listen to

1501
01:37:12,680 --> 01:37:17,360
Speaker 1: my other stuff and Cathy Lolita, mensa, all the all

1502
01:37:17,400 --> 01:37:19,240
Speaker 1: the friends are here. I would say, priorder the hot

1503
01:37:19,240 --> 01:37:22,559
Speaker 1: Dog book, but it's not possible yet. But oh believe

1504
01:37:22,960 --> 01:37:26,400
Speaker 1: will I be harassing you about that? I would say,

1505
01:37:26,439 --> 01:37:29,800
Speaker 1: mainly for a birthday present for me in advance. Just

1506
01:37:29,840 --> 01:37:32,000
Speaker 1: remember to be kind and patient to me when I

1507
01:37:32,040 --> 01:37:35,800
Speaker 1: inevitably don't shut the funk up about the Pinocchio Wars

1508
01:37:35,840 --> 01:37:40,080
Speaker 1: in November. There's two Pinocchios coming out this year. I

1509
01:37:40,160 --> 01:37:43,600
Speaker 1: think that it's I can already feel a real fixation

1510
01:37:43,680 --> 01:37:47,200
Speaker 1: coming on, and uh, it's just gonna be something that's

1511
01:37:47,200 --> 01:37:49,799
Speaker 1: gonna be a lot on my mind in the coming months.

1512
01:37:49,840 --> 01:37:53,879
Speaker 1: So please bear with me as I really get into

1513
01:37:54,200 --> 01:37:56,719
Speaker 1: There's so many Pinocchio adaptations, and I can feel myself

1514
01:37:56,760 --> 01:37:59,519
Speaker 1: getting ready to watch maybe all of them. I want

1515
01:37:59,520 --> 01:38:03,080
Speaker 1: to go into the Pinocchio Wars with eyes wide open. Um.

1516
01:38:03,120 --> 01:38:06,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I want to be a true witness. Welcome

1517
01:38:06,400 --> 01:38:10,480
Speaker 1: to the legal the legal observer for the Pinocchio Wars.

1518
01:38:10,479 --> 01:38:13,280
Speaker 1: It's I'm on the sidelines and I'm keeping score. Wow,

1519
01:38:13,720 --> 01:38:19,080
Speaker 1: Tom Hanks, geppetto versus, who's the other Geppetto. Wait, no,

1520
01:38:19,160 --> 01:38:24,880
Speaker 1: I don't remember Geppetto, not because he's he's no, he's

1521
01:38:24,920 --> 01:38:28,400
Speaker 1: Giminy turny Cricket. God, damn it, I don't remember. You're right.

1522
01:38:28,880 --> 01:38:31,640
Speaker 1: Oh god, I'm going to have a meltdown. Was I

1523
01:38:31,680 --> 01:38:33,479
Speaker 1: think it's like maybe a character actor that we don't

1524
01:38:33,800 --> 01:38:38,719
Speaker 1: see very much, probably Doug Jones. Honestly, that would be iconic.

1525
01:38:38,760 --> 01:38:42,000
Speaker 1: I would not forget. It's it's a it's a British

1526
01:38:42,000 --> 01:38:48,440
Speaker 1: guy Garama del Toros Pinocchio versus Roberts a Mexasis. David Bradley.

1527
01:38:48,680 --> 01:38:55,360
Speaker 1: David Bradley is Geppetto, He's filch In Harry Potter. Okay, alright,

1528
01:38:55,560 --> 01:38:57,720
Speaker 1: well we gotta go. Yes. I can't wait for you

1529
01:38:57,800 --> 01:39:01,360
Speaker 1: to enter the Pinocchio verse. Jamie, Happy birthday, Love you

1530
01:39:01,400 --> 01:39:07,680
Speaker 1: so much and follow us, uh the the instagrams and

1531
01:39:07,720 --> 01:39:12,639
Speaker 1: stuff Matreon. You're gonna wanna listen to that just off

1532
01:39:12,760 --> 01:39:15,840
Speaker 1: the wall Matreon episode in which we attempted to talk

1533
01:39:15,880 --> 01:39:18,080
Speaker 1: about shape of Water and we never got around to it.

1534
01:39:18,160 --> 01:39:22,040
Speaker 1: Five dollars a month gets you tubonus episodes, merch at

1535
01:39:22,080 --> 01:39:25,280
Speaker 1: t public dot com, slash the Epectel Cast, and with

1536
01:39:25,479 --> 01:39:27,360
Speaker 1: that it's my birthday, so we have to go to

1537
01:39:27,400 --> 01:39:30,759
Speaker 1: medieval times. Yeah yeah, bye bye