1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Will robots conquer the world and take away hundreds of 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: millions of jobs from humans. It's not looking likely anytime soon. 3 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: That's because right now there are more job openings than 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: there are unemployed workers. So how do we keep the 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: economy running smoothly with all these unfilled jobs. Maybe the 6 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: answer isn't robots, but keeping older workers employed and hiring 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: those who want a job. Welcome to Benchmark. I'm Scott Lanman, 8 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: economics editor with Bloomberg News in Washington. Returning to the 9 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: show as guest co host is Chris Condon. He's a 10 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: Bloomberg reporter here in d C who covers the Federal 11 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: Reserve in the US economy. Chris, Welcome back to Benchmark. 12 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,279 Speaker 1: Glad to be back, Scott. So Chris, We're coming off 13 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: a pretty strong U s employment report last week. The 14 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: US added another two hundred twenty three thousand jobs in 15 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: May and the unemployment rate ticked down to three point 16 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: eight percent. But one thing that struck me is that 17 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: the participation rate among people age sixty five and over 18 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: is that ninetent, and that means that about one out 19 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: of every five Americans that age either has a job 20 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: or is actively looking for one, and that's almost double 21 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 1: the level from twenty years ago. Chris, why has this 22 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: been important to the Feed? Well, Scott, I think it's 23 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 1: safe to say that this helps to complicate the job 24 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: that the FED has to do. As you know there 25 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: they've got two jobs assigned to them by Congress, and 26 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: that's to maximize employment in the United States but also 27 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: try to keep inflation balanced as close as possible to 28 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: two percent. And sometimes those things come into conflicts. So 29 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: they're very especially at times when unemployment, as it has 30 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: been recently, has been dropping, they have to anticipate when 31 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: is that tighter labor market going to result in higher inflation. Now, 32 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: when older workers start behaving differently, that starts to change 33 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: that calculus. If if older workers represent a greater pool 34 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: of available workers who perhaps will stay in the labor 35 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 1: market or can be incentivized to come back in to 36 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: the labor market, either full time or part time, that 37 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: starts to complicate that that calculation that FED policy makers 38 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: have to do about, Uh, what at what level will 39 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: unemployment really begin to trigger inflation? I think when it 40 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: comes to particularly the on the lower income side, more 41 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: older people making themselves available for work, that starts to 42 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 1: to delay that point in which low unemployment will trigger inflation, 43 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: so more older workers staying in are coming back in 44 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: you know, basically means a larger labor pool that overall 45 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: whole down wages and inflation, and you know, keeps interest 46 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 1: rates lower for longer, all else being equal. Right, On 47 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: the other hand, if there are in the middle and 48 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: upper income brackets, if older workers stay in the labor 49 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: market longer, there they are disrupting the process by which 50 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: they may retire and are replaced by new folks just 51 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: out of school. Say that has a disinflationary impact, and 52 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: they're disrupting that. So in a way, it can work 53 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: in both directions, and as I said, makes it more 54 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: complicated for the FED. It is complicated, like you said, 55 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: And uh, I wanted to say that our interest in 56 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: this issue was piqued by a Bloomberg opinion column by 57 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: economist Tyler Cowen. You can check it out at Bloomberg 58 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: dot com. Now to get some context, we spoke recently 59 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: with two guests about this issue. Later, we'll hear from 60 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: an ex ecutive with a utility company that one recognition 61 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: for its policies aimed at retaining older workers, but First, 62 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: here's our interview with Gene sets Fan, senior vice president 63 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: of programs at a RP, the nonprofit group that represents 64 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 1: thirty eight million Americans aged fifty and older. Gene, thanks 65 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: for joining us on Benchmark. Thanks for having me. So 66 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 1: I'm going to read a little bit of what Tyler 67 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: Cowen wrote in his recent column, and I quote here. 68 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: I would suggest that the ability to spot, mobilize, and 69 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: deploy older workers is the next biggest source of competitive 70 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: advantage in the US. The sober reality is that many 71 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: companies should retool their methods to fit better with the 72 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: experience and sound judgment found so often in older workers. 73 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: That also will involve a retooling of the glamour notion 74 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: to valorize the young less and the idea of maturity. More. 75 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: HR departments may have to work harder to help older 76 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: workers keep up with new technologies. Gene, can we talk 77 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: a little bit about what he said about the glamor 78 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: notion to valorize the young. How is it possible in 79 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: our modern society to overcome some of these ingrained cultural notions. Well, 80 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 1: first of all, I want to sort of reach out 81 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: and hug Tyler for what he wrote. I think he 82 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: is fought on in terms of tapping into this whole 83 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: notion of the experience class or what we call older workers. 84 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: I think the first thing we need to really do 85 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: with employers, in particular HR staff and employers is to 86 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: kind of underscore the fact that there is a business 87 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: case to be made for experienced workers. If you look 88 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: at some of the studies that we've done in the past, 89 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: we actually did a business case together with a on Hewitt. 90 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: We actually found sort of hard facts that show that 91 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: for older workers, they are more motivated than their younger counterparts, 92 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: they're more engaged. Um, both of those things really tanslates 93 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: into higher productivity. And you couple that quite frankly with 94 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: studies that have been done particularly by sort of German 95 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: researchers around the multi generational workforce. When you actually have 96 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: multiple generations in the workplace, it does if all age 97 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: groups actually increase in their overall productivity. So I think 98 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: there is first and foremost the need to actually look 99 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: at the hard facts in terms of what this will 100 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: bring for employers that there's a lot of positive aspects 101 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 1: of having older workers in the workplace. And when we 102 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: talk about older workers, what kind of age are we 103 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 1: actually talking about here? Is it fifty sixty? Well, there's 104 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: a lot of breakdowns right from different definitions brought by 105 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: Department of Labor standards. They usually look at older workers 106 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: as fifty five and above. The typical sort of retirement 107 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: age is usually sixty five and above. All in all, 108 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: I think what we're saying is we're actually seeing overall 109 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: trends in terms of the older cohort of workers increasing 110 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,679 Speaker 1: in terms of growth. And if you look at again 111 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: sort of the labor statistics with population growth of the 112 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: older segments growing more but than the younger we're gonna 113 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: see by four again this is based on from the 114 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: Labors numbers, by the fifty five plus segment will be 115 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: roughly about of the workplace and that's probably the largest 116 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: age coport of all across the board. She and why 117 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: would you say the participation rate of Americans over sixty 118 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: five has been increasing and in fact it's been increasing 119 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: since the nineteen eighties. What's the short answer for why 120 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: that's happening. I think, first and foremost, we have sort 121 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: of the longevity bonus. I think all of us are 122 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: living longer and health You're lives so that's one aspect 123 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: of it um and because of that, I think there's 124 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: two things that's play here. Because you're living longer, you 125 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: have more productive years. At the same time, you have 126 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: more years to actually fund from the retirement standpoint. So 127 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: I think both of those factors is certainly what we 128 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: see in our surveys as the reasons why people want 129 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,679 Speaker 1: to work longer. But is it more because people want 130 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: to work or because they have to work in order 131 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: to make ends meet as their retirements or not their retirements, 132 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: but their um their lives are lasting longer. As you 133 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: mentioned again, our surveys have been relatively consistent on this 134 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: front and financial needs from a worker's perspective. In terms 135 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: of wanting to work longer, it is financial reasons that 136 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: are the main drivers. But I also find what some 137 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: interesting sort of stats out there when we actually look 138 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: at retirees to actually work, both in terms of our 139 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: surveys as well as the Retirement Confidence Survey does again 140 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: launched two ball studies. When you actually look at what 141 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: retirees are saying and why they actually go back to 142 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,599 Speaker 1: work or working part times, it really is that productivity 143 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: aspect of trying to stay more engaged that is the driver, 144 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: which I find interesting. Right, Um, if truly retirees are 145 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: having a hard time funding their retirement, I would suspect 146 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 1: that we would see that financial would still be the 147 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: main driver. But that's not necessarily the case right now, Geane, 148 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: How can employers be persuaded to embrace this to retain 149 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: and higher older workers that should they be incentivized in 150 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: some way or is there education involved? Well? I like 151 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: to think about it this way. UM. We've actually run 152 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:49,719 Speaker 1: programs for many years trying to highlight employers who have 153 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: done this well, and we've seen that in certain industries 154 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 1: there are some employers that do this well because they 155 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: have a chronic skill shortage. So if you like get 156 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: for example, healthcare, some from academia as well as financial 157 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: institutions where there's a chronic skill shortage, they actually do 158 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: a very good job in having sort of this age 159 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: diverse workforce UM and really focusing on retention UM workplace 160 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: policies and practices for experience workers. So I think really 161 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 1: having employers kind of underscore the true business value in 162 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: in having a age diverse workforce is one aspect of this. 163 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: What it is interesting to mean the whole notion of 164 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: education that I think we should really underscore is on 165 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: the talent acquisition side. What we don't see a lot 166 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,839 Speaker 1: of is intentional hiring of experienced workers across the board, 167 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: and a little bit of a of this, I think 168 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: to your point around education, I think we could go 169 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: a long way again reinforcing, particularly among recruiters the benefits 170 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: of UM again multi generational workforce, and also figuring out 171 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: where best to tap the talent because I'm, like, you know, 172 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: already made scalable pools of new applicants in college grads. 173 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: For graduate school grads, I think it's probably a little 174 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: bit harder to kind of find UM experience workers on 175 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: math gene. I wanted to talk about a phrase I 176 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: heard you just say. I heard you say intentional recruitment 177 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: of older workers. And you know, often when we hear 178 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: about this topic, it's more in the context of age 179 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: discrimination and how to deal with that issue. And I'm wondering, 180 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: is age discrimination in the US today, has it gotten 181 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: worse in recent years or is it better, you know, 182 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: say than ten years ago or twenty years ago. It's 183 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: hard to tell, I'll say that, but we just celebrated 184 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: the fiftie anniversary of the Aged Combination Employment Act, And 185 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: unfortunately it's very much out there in terms of the trends. Again, 186 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,079 Speaker 1: it's a little bit hard to tell for a couple 187 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:14,079 Speaker 1: of reasons. We definitely see basically the same number of reports, 188 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: I would say, but in recent years it's harder for 189 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:24,479 Speaker 1: particularly employees to file an age discrimination case because of 190 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: the Supreme Support ruling against the growth case. So age 191 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: discrimination compared to other discriminations is almost a second class discrimination. 192 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: There's a higher claim. In other words, if you want 193 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: to file an age discrimination case, it has to be 194 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: the sole force behind the disperate impact. So but for 195 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: anything else, that was the main reason why you were 196 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: treated differently, onelike other factors where it's more of a 197 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: motivating factor or contributing factor. So it's again hard to 198 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: say whether it's worse or not, but it's certainly it 199 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: is harder for employees to fight against this notion. Now, 200 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: older workers can run into some other barriers, Gene, how 201 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: often would you say that when they're looking for a job, 202 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: they're not necessarily disqualified because they're too old, but because 203 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 1: the perhaps the employer thinks they're salary or requirements are 204 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: too high, or because the position is more of a 205 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: junior posting those types of barriers. How how important is 206 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: that our surveys don't exactly ask exactly the question that 207 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: you ask, but we do have fielded this question focused 208 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: on negative impacts based on age, and our studies again 209 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: over the source of many years, it's been pretty consistent 210 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: and seeing that either one in six or one in 211 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: five folks will tell us that they weren't hired as 212 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: a result of their age. And we also have seen 213 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: recently with another case UH with Cliber case out of 214 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 1: the Eleventh Circuit Courts of Appeals where there's a favorable 215 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: ruling where for a while it was unclear whether job 216 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,559 Speaker 1: applicants were covered under the A D A Age Discrimination 217 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: Employment Acts or whether it was a full time employee 218 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: if you're how to be a part of that company already, 219 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: but currently it's There was an appeals case where the 220 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: gentleman Mr. Fliber was looking for a job that definitely 221 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: qualified for positions that was soliciting for applicants that had 222 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: no more than seven years experience, and so he um 223 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: sued against the company. At first it was he was 224 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: overalled and um but in the quarter of deals in 225 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: the seventh one circuits. I apologized they found in his favor, 226 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: saying that job applicants are also covered under a d A, 227 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: so that is favorable ruling on behalf of job applicants 228 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: a Geen, you guys have a vast store of information 229 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: on this topic and it's been really fascinating speaking with 230 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: you about this. Gene sets Fans of a r P, 231 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us on Benchmark. 232 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. That was our interview with 233 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: Gene sets Fan, senior vice president at A RP. Now 234 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: for a corporate perspective, here's our talk with Keith Hutchison. 235 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,239 Speaker 1: He's the senior vice president of HR and chief Diversity 236 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: officer for National Grid u s A. That's the American 237 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: division of the UK based electric utility. He joins us 238 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: from their offices in Massachusetts. Keith, thanks for coming on 239 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: Benchmark with us. Thanks for having me so. National Grid 240 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: recently won an award from Columbia University's Public Health School 241 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: for employers that excel at hiring and retaining workers over 242 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: age fifty. What would you highlight that sets National Grid 243 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: apart in this regard? So, one of the things that 244 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: sets National Grid apart is a couple of things actually. 245 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: Um Firstly, we are a long term asset business, so 246 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: the work that we do, the services that we provide 247 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: for our customers are based on installing assets which are 248 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: intended to last four decades. Many of the gas pipes 249 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: and electric lines that provide energy needs to our customers 250 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: today have either been installed or built many many years 251 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: ago by employees who have attained long service with our company, 252 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: and so it's really important for us to be able 253 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: to retain the experience around managing and maintaining those assets 254 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: for our customers. And as a result, our offering that 255 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: we have term employees is based on the fact that 256 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: you join National Grid and there is a long term 257 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: career path for you with our company, and we celebrate 258 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: that by having career milestone awards for employees that exceed 259 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: forty years of service with our company. And that's crucial 260 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: for us because they have the knowledge of the equipment, 261 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 1: the assets that we have in the ground overheadlines that 262 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: need to be maintained every single day to provide a 263 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: safe and reliable service to our customers. So this is 264 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: we are in a different industry from others and that 265 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: we rely on the long term skills of our of 266 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: our workforce, and we value incredibly Keith, would you say 267 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: that it's becoming increasingly important to National Grid these these 268 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 1: workers that are say over fifty. It is. On one hand, 269 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: you could look at it and say that, you know, 270 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: retirement for a lot of our workers are is inevitable 271 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,199 Speaker 1: and that we just have to accept that fact and 272 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: plan for it. We take a different view at National Grid. 273 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: We say, actually, there is a that is a really 274 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: important role to for for experienced workers to play in 275 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: our company. For example, there is a war for talent 276 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: in the market. You know, you've seen the recent unemployment 277 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: numbers issued recently, unemployment is going down, which means that 278 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: the availability of talent and resources in the market is 279 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: becoming incredibly competitive. And so for us, we are looking 280 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: at the next generation of workers that need to be 281 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: trained in how to do the work at National Grids 282 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: and that requires us to look at STEM related career 283 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: paths for new hires. But we need the workers, the 284 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: experienced workers, to be part of the training and the 285 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: knowledge transfer to those new folks coming into National Grid 286 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: because it's many of the career paths that we have 287 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: in our company require training and development for five or 288 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: six years to be fully competent. That's a long time 289 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: to join the company before you become fully competent to 290 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: do a role. The role that an experienced worker plays 291 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: in our company, not just doing the work, but mentoring 292 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: and training the next generation is incredibly important. So in 293 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: our view, given the fact that we will be recruiting 294 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: more people in advance of many of the retirements that 295 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: are planned over the next ten years, means that the 296 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: role that they will play for our company is more 297 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: critical now than ever. So are you recruiting people that 298 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: are older or is it really you bring in people 299 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: when they're younger and just work on making sure they 300 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: stick around for a long time. So it's a combination 301 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 1: of the two. I think typically we have always looked 302 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: at recruiting folks at a younger age and then training them. Actually, 303 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: in recent years we've taken a different approach and and 304 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: that's generated a number of the initiatives that we have 305 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: in Flight now, which is looking at how might we 306 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: attract folks who are more experienced, who might be at 307 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: the midpoint in their career in other companies around other 308 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: industries that can be retrained so that it's actually not 309 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: just being fully reliant on people selecting engineering as a 310 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 1: discipline or as a career path and join the national 311 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: goods so that we can train them. It's actually saying 312 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: there's tremendous value in us attracting folks who might be 313 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: who might have had a successful career elsewhere that we 314 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: want to bring over to National Grid. So it's a 315 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 1: combination of the two. And actually one of the challenges 316 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: that we have that we're grappling with at the moment 317 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: is how do you make it attractive for somebody to 318 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: leave an organization if they've been there for twenty years 319 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 1: or so, to join National Grid. At that point, it's 320 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: a different proposition than going out to the graduate market 321 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: and saying start your career with National Grid because we 322 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 1: offer you X, Y, and z. It's a completely different 323 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: attraction challenge that we will have for attracting experienced workers. 324 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 1: But it's one that we see the value in and 325 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: one that we're prepared to invest in. Do you have 326 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: any estimates or hard numbers, Keith, on what proportion of 327 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: your workforce is over fifty and perhaps is that do 328 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: you know whether that is increasing? It is increasing, So 329 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: at the moment. In our US business, forty one cent 330 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: of our employees are over the age of fifty and 331 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: number is increasing um it is increasing every year um so. 332 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: And we have both management employees and represented employees as well, 333 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: and the numbers are broadly the same. For management employees 334 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: it's around fort and for our union workforce it's it's 335 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: about so broadly the same, averaging forty one. Now, Keith, 336 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 1: you've worked in different parts of the business. Is there 337 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: anything that you've personally learned in your career or any 338 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: particular experiences you've had, you know, with mentors or older 339 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: workers in your career. Absolutely, I mean I every I've 340 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: been very fortunate enough to have moved around the business. 341 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: I've worked supporting both our transmission gas distribution side of 342 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: the business US and UK. And the one thing that 343 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: I have always valued tremendously about National GRIDZE is the 344 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: incredible importance that history has in both our values but 345 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: in also how we develop people's career paths. So we 346 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: have a tremend this history. We are We're not a 347 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: company that is UH that has only been around for 348 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: a few years, and a lot of our workers value 349 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: that and a lot of our learning about where we're 350 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: going in the future is rooted in where we've come 351 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: from and the best place to get that. And then 352 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: my personal experience through getting mentors is how has the company, 353 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: what what is the company experienced up to this point, 354 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: and what does that tell us about where we need 355 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 1: to go next. That can be either in the HR 356 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 1: profession or it can be within the operations profession. And 357 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: I see it being incredibly important on both sides of that. Now, Keith, 358 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: as you know, unemployment in the US has dropped below 359 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: four We hear a lot of reports of employers struggling 360 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: to fill open positions, particularly skilled positions. How is National 361 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: Grid responding to that, perhaps partly with wage increases if 362 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: that's the case. And on this subject that we're talking about, 363 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: do you do anything in particular to incentivize older workers 364 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: to stay on us to the point where they might 365 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: have retired. Sure. Well, let me first say, I mean, 366 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: it's a great time to be a candidate in the market. 367 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: You know, with unemployment so low, there has never been 368 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: a better time to be a candidate because you're you're 369 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 1: now going to be having companies and industries touting for 370 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: your skills. So so, and we're acutely aware of that. 371 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: We know that what we offer in terms of compensation 372 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: and benefits in some areas needs to be competitive, but 373 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: we also have an obligation to our ratepayers. You know, 374 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 1: we are a regulated utility, and we have an obligation 375 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: to be able to show that what we pay the 376 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: benefits that we offer can be justified as being value 377 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: added to our to our customers. Every bit of income 378 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: that we get is given to us by customers who 379 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: pay their bills, so we cannot be frivolous. So we 380 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: have to do a lot of work to analyze what 381 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: are our competitors doing, what are the movements in the market, 382 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: and how do we respond accordingly, What have we done 383 00:23:54,680 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: specifically around benefits. Well, we are we've recently launched, in fact, 384 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: yesterday we launched a caregiver program. We're looking at a 385 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: suite of benefits in the company now that are looking 386 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: at targeting people at different points in their career with 387 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 1: the company. The caregiver benefits cover people who have just 388 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: started out a family who need support around childcare, but 389 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: it also extends to people who may be caring for 390 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: an elderly or sick relative. Because we know that given 391 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 1: the fact that society is aging, not just our workforce. 392 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: The chances are that most of our employees will at 393 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: some point be required to care for an elderly or 394 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: sick relative in their life, and we we recognize that, 395 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: and we want to be able to provide support to 396 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: people so that they can continue to flourish in their 397 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: career but get the support that they need outside of 398 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: work as well. And we recognize that, and we're looking 399 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: at a number of other solutions around benefits that will 400 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: help people to make choices about their career rather than 401 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: give up work early when they're simply not ready to 402 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: do that. One of the things that we recognize in 403 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: our workforces, many of our field workers feel compelled that 404 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: they have to return, that that's the only option available 405 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: to them. We don't agree with that, and we're challenging 406 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: that conventional thinking. We think, let's have a conversation early 407 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: on with our employees that says you are reaching nearing 408 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: retirement age, but let's have a conversation about what you 409 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: want to do, because it is tremendous value you can 410 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: continue to add to our business, whether it be retraining, 411 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: whether it be going into a back office position within 412 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: the company, so that actually we can help them facilitate 413 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: a phased retirement rather than what many employees have traditionally experienced, 414 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: which is they reached the retirement age and they have 415 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 1: no choice but to retire. And we think that challenging 416 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: those conventional wisdoms of the of the past is really 417 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: where the value can be in getting the most out 418 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: of our workforce long after they reach retirement eligibility. Last question, Keith, 419 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: I wanted to take a little bit more of a 420 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,199 Speaker 1: global perspective. Obviously, our listeners can tell from your accent 421 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: that you're not from Massachusetts. You're from Scotland, right, I am, yes, 422 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 1: And I wanted to commend you because I heard you 423 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: say X, Y and Z before and your countrymen might 424 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: might not appreciate that, but but you've adapted pretty well 425 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: to America by not saying X, Y and Z, so 426 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: I wanted to give you credit for that. But you know, 427 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 1: National Grid is a longstanding UK company. I believe you've 428 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: worked in both places. Can can you explain any differences 429 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: between the US and UK on on the issue of 430 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: employing older workers? Are they in pretty similar situations? Firstly, 431 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 1: thank you for recognizing my my transition to the US. 432 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: I work very hard and get a lot of pressure 433 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: from my colleagues to adapt to the lingo. So I'm 434 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: glad to get the recognition. I don't believe there is 435 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: much of a difference, and I think it's more of 436 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: an industry challenge, and I think that's not unique to 437 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: the United States. I think it's the same challenge in 438 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: the UK. The amount of investment that we placed in 439 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: the skilled work force, the high skilled and capable workforce 440 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 1: that we have in the U S and the UK 441 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: requires years of investment. And our assets are the same. 442 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,479 Speaker 1: You know, they made different design but ultimately they are 443 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: assets that have been designed to withstand and exist for 444 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 1: many decades to come. And many of the assets that 445 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: we management that we maintain today have been around for 446 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 1: for decades as well. And that's the same in the UK. 447 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: Um our workforces are are broadly similar in terms of 448 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: their career trajectory and age profile. I would say that 449 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: we have a larger workforce here in the US and 450 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: so we are probably facing a more acute challenge around 451 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: that than the UK, but the but the path is 452 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,199 Speaker 1: is very similar. I would say that one of the 453 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: things that we are spearheading for the company in the 454 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: US is looking more at experienced workers. We've got an 455 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: initiative at the moment which is looking at how we 456 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 1: can attract and retain experience workers more in National Grid, 457 00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 1: and we're going to start that work off in the 458 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 1: US because our workforce numbers are greater in the US 459 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,479 Speaker 1: and unemployment is coming down rapidly as well. Any learnings 460 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: that we have or that we're able to take from 461 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 1: that work we will absolutely apply to the UK and 462 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: help the business in the UK do that. But the 463 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: great thing is we can test and trial an experiment 464 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: with some of these ideas and initiatives in the US 465 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: because there's such a great opportunity to do that, and 466 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 1: the UK will will undoubtedly take any best practice that 467 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 1: we can offer. All right, Keith Hutchison of National Grid, 468 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: thanks so much for your time. Thank you as my pleasure. 469 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 1: Benchmark will be back next week. Until then, you can 470 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: find us on the Bloomberg terminal, Bloomberg dot com or 471 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: Bloomberg app and podcast destinations such as Apple Podcasts, Spotify 472 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen. We'd love it if you took 473 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: the time to rate and review the show. So more 474 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: listeners can find us. You can also check us out 475 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: on Twitter. Follow me at scott Landman Chris. You're at Chris, 476 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: Jake Garanton. Our guest, Gene sets Fan from a r 477 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: P is at J S E t Z, and our 478 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: guest Keith Hutchison from National Grid is at h U 479 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: T C h I S O n k R. Benchmark 480 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: is produced by tofor Foreheast. The head of Bloomberg Podcasts 481 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: is Francesca lev Thanks for listening, See you next time.