1 00:00:01,639 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: Hey guys, this is Dani Schwartz. You probably noticed this 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: is not a normal episode of Noble Blood, and that's 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,479 Speaker 1: because I was a guest on the podcast Significant Others, 4 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: hosted by the incredibly fun and charming Lizapaoulo O'Brien. We 5 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: just had a blast talking about well significant others in history, 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: famous spouses of monarchs and nobles, which has been a 7 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: topic that we've covered on this show, but it was 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: just so fun to be able to chat about it 9 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: casually with Lijah. So I really hope you enjoyed this 10 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: conversation as much as I did. And of course your 11 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: regular episode will be coming Tuesday. Welcome back to Significant Others. 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: I'm Liza Powell O'Brien, and just because I'm deep in 13 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: research for season two doesn't mean we have to stop 14 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: bringing you stories of interesting plus ones. In the first 15 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: of these bonus episodes, Stacy Schiff and I talked about 16 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,959 Speaker 1: her new book, The Revolutionary, which is all about Samuel 17 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: Adams and his wildly underreported role in the birth of America. 18 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: So check that one out if you haven't already. And 19 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: as royal relationships are very much in the media these days, 20 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: even more than usual, I thought it would be interesting 21 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: to delve a little bit into the idea of a 22 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: royal marriage in general, since there really isn't anything else 23 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: like it, and to talk about a few of the 24 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: more significant examples of what that kind of a marriage 25 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: can look like. So I reached out to the absolute 26 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: Queen no pun intended of such information, historian, author and 27 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: host of the delightful podcast Noble Blood, Dana Schwartz. Dana, 28 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: thank you so much for talking with us today. For 29 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: anyone who's listening who might not already be familiar with 30 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: your podcast, could you tell us a little bit about it? Yeah. Absolutely. 31 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: It's a scripted podcast where I research and write UM episodes, 32 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: every episode exploring sort of a lesser known story from 33 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: the lives of royals throughout history. Some are sort of 34 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: lesser known stories or aspects about really famous people like 35 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: Marie Antoinette or Inn Boleyn, but I also try to capture, 36 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: you know, fascinating stories about people that maybe American listeners 37 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: might not have even heard about. Like I just recorded 38 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: an episode about this Portuguese princess named in Nez de Castro, 39 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: queen actually um but sort of her her gruesome and 40 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: tragic death. So yeah, a lot of um perhaps surprising 41 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: amount of of royal stories and in gruesome deaths, but 42 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: that's part of the fun. It's so addictive your podcast, 43 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: I have to really honestly, it's almost problematic because I'll 44 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: start listening to them and then I realized four hours 45 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: have gone by and I've done I've attended to no children, 46 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: I've I've cooked no meals. Um So you have to 47 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: limit your intake the highest phrase um So. In this podcast, 48 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: we focus on intimate relationships. Sometimes parents are friends of 49 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: historical figures, you sually it's a spouse. That's because I've 50 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: always been really personally fascinated by um intense one on relationships, 51 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,679 Speaker 1: especially marriages, And one of the things I find especially 52 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: interesting in marriages is power dynamics and how they differ, 53 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: and when it comes to royal marriages, which is sort 54 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: of falling under your umbrella of expertise, I find that 55 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 1: to be so specific because there's such an inherent power 56 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: imbalance baked in from the beginning. Absolutely, and I have 57 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: just observed myself that there's a whole range of responses 58 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: that humans throughout history have had to this condition of 59 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: being put in the position of being a royal spouse 60 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: and you know, everything from totally compliant to completely revolutionary, 61 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: and I thought you might be the best person to 62 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: walk us through some of those examples. So I'm just 63 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: wondering if you can what whatever comes to you in 64 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: response to that idea of like, what are the different 65 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: ways that this kind of relationship has played out? Absolutely, 66 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: I think the power dynamic that you're pointing out is 67 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: so important when we're talking about royal marriages. One because traditionally, 68 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: let's say for several hundred years, it would be a 69 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: man in charge of any marriage, you know, any family relationship. 70 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: And then to to give someone the power of you know, 71 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: absolute rule, God's vessel on earth, that power sort of 72 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: takes on an even bigger light. I think when we're 73 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: talking about royal wives, the first thing that pops into 74 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: most people's heads is King Henry the Eighth and his 75 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: six wives, and what a fascinating saga that is because 76 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: of the way he went from woman to woman, and 77 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: I think in the stories these women sort of are 78 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: are unfortunately always sort of seen in response to him. 79 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: And I think it's been a modern movement, like in 80 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: the musical Six to try to reclaim their own agency 81 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: and sort of the narrative potential of them. I mean, 82 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: you think of someone like Henry the Eighth's first wife, 83 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: Catherine of Aragon, who was his loyal wife at his 84 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: side for twenty plus years. I mean, this is a 85 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: woman who was a princess in her own right, the 86 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: the daughter of two of the most important monarchs in Europe, 87 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: the aunt of the Holy Roman Emperor, like the most 88 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: connected and powerful individual a woman can be at this time, 89 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: really right, like she's the Queen of England. Her parents 90 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,919 Speaker 1: are are a king and a queen. Her family is 91 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 1: massively powerful throughout Europe, her you know, nephew. At a 92 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: certain point, sachs, the Vatican has the Vatican under his control. 93 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: She has all the mechanisms of power. And yet because 94 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: this woman, even though she's been a loyal, loving wife 95 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: for twenty plus years, even though the kingdom loves her, 96 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: you know, she's seen as this pious woman because she 97 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: hasn't provided Henry with a son. He does everything in 98 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: his power to dispose of her. And he he does. 99 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: I mean, even though again, like the stop gaps in 100 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: place to prevent a man just from saying I don't 101 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: want to be married to you anymore at this point 102 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: are I mean, he's the head of the church and 103 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: she's a subject subject but they're Catholic, right, Like, he 104 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 1: can't divorce. He will literally separate from the Catholic Church, 105 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: become excommunicated, start the Church of England. He will do 106 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: everything in his power to to undermine their marriage, and 107 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: she has she plays all of her cards and it 108 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: doesn't work like that. I think the tragedy of that 109 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: is so emblematic of the way that a man has 110 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: power over his wife in certain ways. But then and 111 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: again not to monologue and ramble because already, like give 112 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: me the popcorn, I'm ready to go. You put a 113 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: microphone in front of me and I start, you know, 114 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: I mean, and then you have a situation like Catherine 115 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,799 Speaker 1: the Great who it's this very strange different dynamic where 116 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: Catherine the Great is a German princess from a low 117 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: born family um is sort of brought in to marry 118 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: the heir to the Russian throne because they think she's 119 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: sort of going to be easily controlled. Again, she has 120 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: none of the entrenched political power that someone like Katherine 121 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: Bergan would have had. But over the course of her 122 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: marriage to Peter, Katherine ingratiates herself to the Russian people, 123 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: converts to Russian orthodoxy in a way that like the 124 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: people fall in love with learns the Russian language. There's 125 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: a story about her she she catches still very early 126 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: on in her marriage and the store, and she's bedridden, 127 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: and the story that sort of spreads that feeds into 128 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: her legend is that she was up at night pacing 129 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: on the cold floor studying Russian and that's why people 130 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: like fall in love with her. And her husband is 131 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: such an ineffective, bad emperor in so many ways that 132 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: six months into his reign, even though she wasn't Russian born, 133 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: even though she was an heir to the throne, even 134 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: though she really has no claim to the Russian throne 135 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: in any legitimate way. We we might imagine through lineage, 136 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: she rallies the the armies behind her, the people behind her, 137 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: the church behind her, and overthrows her own husband. So 138 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: she was ambitious. So it's sort of like there are 139 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: these Catherine Varragon. I don't know how ambitious she might 140 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: have been. A Bolen is always proteted. Prichette is very ambitious, right, 141 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: And I don't again, I don't know so much myth 142 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: has been made about all of Henry's well Henry himself 143 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: and all of his wives, And I don't know. I 144 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 1: sort of love the idea of Amberleyn as like a 145 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: you know, a schemer. I don't know how much it 146 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: was the right place, right time, you know. I mean, 147 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: it's she she had a very limited opportunity, right. It's 148 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: like her family is saying, like, do this thing. This 149 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: is the one thing you're supposed to do. This is 150 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: how to advance as a woman. I mean, in the hundred's, 151 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: advancing as a woman was marrying, yeah, and then not 152 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: getting be added. And if the king wants you, you're you're. 153 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: You have fewer cards to play than than maybe people think. 154 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: And I my anvioln hot take is I think she 155 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: played her cards magnificently and if she had happened to 156 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: have a son, she would have been fine. And because 157 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: she didn't, these things, yeah, these things, these things happen, 158 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: but like it was an impossible situation, right, and then 159 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: the patriarchy does that to us. So when was the 160 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: first appointed royal spouse who was male? Oh gosh, I 161 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: guess it depends on if we're going to count Empress Matilda. 162 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: So there's are you watching the new Game of Thrones 163 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 1: by chance? I'm not. I'm not okay. So for people 164 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: who are watching, how's the dragon? The character um Rania, 165 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: like the young princess who was claiming queen, is sort 166 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: of based on this figure named Empress Matilda, who, depending 167 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: on who you ask, counts or doesn't count as a 168 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: monarch of England. So she was the daughter of King 169 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: Henry the First. His only legitimate son, William died uh 170 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: in a ship disaster, a ship crashed against some rocks, 171 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: and so her father said, my daughter Matilda is my heir. 172 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: Of course, then her father dies, and uh, A lot 173 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: of people in eleven hundred England say, no, we do not. 174 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: I know, we swore for fealty to her when your 175 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 1: father is alive. But your father is not alive anymore, 176 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: and so there becomes a civil war in England known 177 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: as the Anarchy. And her nephew cousin nephew, Um, I'm 178 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: gonna get this wrong, and so I hope no one 179 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: angrily corrects me. A relative, either a cousin or nephew, 180 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: Stephen is is sort of the the counterfaction who then 181 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: claims power. But Matilda, who was fighting in the Civil 182 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: War for her right um to the throne, had her 183 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: husband Jeffrey, who was focused on conquering Normandy, which was 184 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: also considered part of the the English crowns power at 185 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 1: that time, so that that's sort of an interesting husband fascinating. 186 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: There's there are other few sort of interesting dynamics where 187 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: a wife has technically higher claim at a given time, 188 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: Like Mary, Queen of Scott's was married to a Prince 189 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: of France who then became the King of France. But 190 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: at the time that they were married, she was the 191 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: Queen of Scotland. Her mother was ruling in her stead 192 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: and her her half brother was sort of ruling while 193 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: she was in France, but she was the independent queen 194 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: of a country married to the Dafa France uh and 195 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: that had its own interesting political called dynamics because being 196 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: but unfortunately, as Mary Queen of Scott's learned like her 197 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: marriage is only ever really diminished her power. She makes 198 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: the terrible decision to marry this man named Lord Darnley, 199 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: who she had been charmed by but was it was 200 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: a terrible match. He dies in mysterious uh, an explosion, 201 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: that was and then he was found strangled like there 202 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: was a murder attempt because he was awful, and Mary, 203 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: Queen of scott was sort of like, oh no, my 204 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: husband died. That's so sad. I'm you know, I'll definitely 205 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: look into what happened. But the people of Scotland at 206 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: the time see that and don't like that. That's her reaction. 207 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 1: And then she marries, in her third marriage, the man 208 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: who was implicated in her second husband's death, which the 209 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: people of Scotland absolutely hate. Some historians say she didn't 210 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: have a choice in that matter, that you know, he 211 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: raped and kidnapped her. Some say that, you know, she 212 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: just made a terrible calculation. But either way, those were 213 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: two matches that ultimately diminished her power, and someone like 214 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: her cousin, Elizabeth the First of England, realized that she's 215 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:13,119 Speaker 1: already queen. Marrying a man is only gonna gonna compromise 216 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: compromise her power, thank you exactly. And so is she 217 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: the only example? She's the most obvious example of an 218 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: unmarried female monarch. Is there other? Is there anyone else 219 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: who did that? In England? No, I'm sure around the 220 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: world there are and I just off the top of 221 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: my head, can't can't recall. Uh, it's definitely absolutely several 222 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 1: African monarchs and queens, but in England, no queen. Elizabeth 223 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: made the calculation of ruling as a virgin queen. But 224 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: there's a benefit of that, right, which is that she 225 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: doesn't have to submit to a man. But the cost 226 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: of that is it's the end of the tutor dynasty 227 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 1: because she doesn't have airs. And at the end of 228 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: the day, the purpose of a of a monarchy is 229 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 1: to create your dynasty, have it keep going, create airs. 230 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: And I think part of the problem also, especially in 231 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: the fifteen hundreds, if we're talking about Elizabeth, the first 232 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: childbirth is a is a very dangerous prospect. So it's 233 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: that's it's very much a bodily risk, that's right. So 234 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: to put the monarch through that kind of a trial 235 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: from which what percentage of women didn't you know, emerge successfully? 236 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: You know? Sure, Yeah, I'm totally making that and I'm 237 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: like that that sounds right. I don't know, it's very 238 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: it's dangerous, right, You're putting the monarch in, that's right, 239 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: a very vulnerable position, right. Um, In terms of the 240 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: selection process, for lack of a better phrase, for these 241 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: royal partners. You know, we know sort of in pop 242 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: culture what the story is about, you know, the current 243 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: royal family in England or the most recent ration. But 244 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: was there like was it selected by the ruling monarch? 245 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: Was there a council? Was that the family? Was it 246 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: all of the above? How did that work the family? 247 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: In most cases? Because you are absolutely correct that these 248 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: are not decisions very often made for love. These are 249 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: strategic decisions. The role of marriage for a lot of 250 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: you know, Western history from a certain you know, from 251 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: at least as long as we have, like the English 252 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: monarchy recorded, it was to secure alliances. It was to 253 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: secure political or religious alliances, to combine land dowries were important, 254 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: and so yeah, love was sort of a something reserved 255 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: for poor people, I suppose, right, like almost a luxury 256 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: that the monarchy couldn't afford, right, Yeah, and I can't 257 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: worry about that. It was very much understood, especially in 258 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: France at the time. Royal mistress was an official position 259 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: with a salary and apartments that you lived in. It 260 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: was right, So it was akin to I mean, it 261 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: wasn't marriage obviously, because marriage was considered this very political, legal, 262 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: religious institution. But it was almost a marriage of sorts 263 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: because by appointing someone your royal mistress, they are they 264 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: have an official position in your life. And so I 265 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: think in France it was very much understood that your 266 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: wife is to fulfill this certain role and your mistress 267 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: is to fulfill another role. And I actually think, now 268 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: you've gotten me on my on my high horse. This 269 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: is sort of a pet subject of mine. It was 270 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: to Marie Antoinette's detriment that her husband never did take 271 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: a mistress. Her husband, Louis the sixteenth, was sort of awkward. 272 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: It took them seven years to consummate their marriage. He 273 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: was not a very sexual person. I think sometimes people 274 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: like to think, well, was he gay, and I think no. 275 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: I think more likely he just was maybe closer to 276 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 1: a sexual He just wasn't very sexual. And Marie Antoinette, 277 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: because he never had an official royal mistress to sort 278 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: of differ court attention and gossip and the more frivolous 279 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: aspects of courtly life. Marie Antoinette was in this unfortunate 280 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: position of being forced to do both, where she was 281 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: both the one that everyone looked to for fashion and 282 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: style and gossip, but also at the same time she 283 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: was expected to be, you know, the royal mother and 284 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: the queen and and honor that position with with the 285 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: dignity they expected. There's a famous example of a portrait 286 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 1: that was painted in three of Marie Antoinette in a 287 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: simple Muslim gown. It's like a chemist style gown that 288 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: was meant to evoke farm simplicity. She was doing seventeen 289 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: eighties cottage corps, and that was very fashionable at the 290 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: time for rich people to sort of play at simplicity, 291 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: you know, the way I think people kind of do 292 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: on TikTok today, like baking bread. But at the time 293 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: this portrait was so scandalous that it was pulled from 294 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: display because the first response was that it was too sexual, 295 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: that it looked like she was in her undergarments, that 296 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: it was so casual, and that as a queen, she 297 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: she you know, she was dishonoring the the position as queen, 298 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: that the status, the title, the status that she held. 299 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: She was sullying herself, sullying selling the position of queen. 300 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 1: And also you know, imagine she's trying to put the 301 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 1: French silk merchants out of business by now wearing a 302 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: silk gown, and so it was this sort of horrible 303 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: thing where it backfired on every account where I think 304 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: common people in France saw her as being condescending. You know, 305 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: that's sort of like slumming it where they're like, what 306 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: are you doing? You know, the way that I think 307 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: if we saw, you know, a celebrity today making rice 308 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: and beans and being like, oh I love eating or whatever, 309 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: you know, some like very casual food where you're like, 310 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 1: what's like, that's not what you are. But then the 311 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: rich people were like, you are selly in your position 312 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: as queen, and so it fully backfired on every account. 313 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: Where did this line up with her farm that she 314 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: famously created behind Versailles, We are exactly there. You absolutely 315 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: nailed it. She had people also make fun of this 316 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: a lot. She had this thing called the Queen's Hamlet, 317 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: which was a working It was a model farm, but 318 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: it was a working dairy farm where she went to 319 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: escape because Versailles was like being in a fish bowl. 320 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: You are always watched, and every step from the order 321 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: in which you get dressed in the morning to your 322 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: meals is watched and perfectly choreographed, and so of course, 323 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,959 Speaker 1: like you imagine, like she just wanted like a a breather, 324 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: like a minute, just to like be by herself and 325 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,479 Speaker 1: just hang out. And this was actually very common in 326 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 1: the late seventeen hundreds of nobles building these sort of 327 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: faux farms to evoke a don't simplicity homey exactly. So yeah, 328 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: she had a fake working farm, and she was sort 329 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: of dress up like a um, you know, in more 330 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: casual clothes, and and just spend time with her children, 331 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: which was also considered a very weird thing she did. 332 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: It was like, why are you spending all this time 333 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 1: parenting your children? Don't you know you can pay people 334 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: to parent your children for you. That echoes with Lady 335 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: Diana and her interests. Also, Um, you said something that 336 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: I have been very curious about since I listened to 337 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: your episode on The Mad King. King George the third. 338 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: We're talking about how he, whatever his affliction was, was 339 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: sort of at bay for many years, and he became 340 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: ill later in his life, but there was a long 341 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: period of time where he was sort of managing the 342 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: royal business fairly well, and he had all these siblings 343 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: who were sort of crazy. I mean, they were all 344 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: acting insane, and nobody was marrying who they were supposed 345 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 1: to marry, and and I was just thinking about, like, 346 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: you know, I don't hear much just as a lay person, 347 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: and I don't know how big of an area of 348 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 1: scholarship it is, but of these royals who you know, 349 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: were with this incredibly strict and conventional idea of marriage 350 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: and partnership in that way, like what what of the 351 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: you know, the queer royals through history? Like do we 352 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: know anything about any of them? And you know, I'm 353 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: sure their fate was complicated if it was recorded at all, 354 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: But do you know anything about any of that? Yeah, 355 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 1: we have um a few interesting stories. So there was 356 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: King Edward the second of England and this is now 357 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: in the late twelve hundreds, and there was a man. 358 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 1: I mean because so much of it isn't recorded the 359 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: way that I think modern sources would want it to 360 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: be recorded. And I think these these things are complicated 361 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: because I don't think these the character characters. The people 362 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: at the time wouldn't have called themselves gay or queer. 363 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: That vocabulary didn't exist. And so I, as like an 364 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: untrained historian, I'm always like waried to put these labels 365 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: on people. But King Edward the Second of England, who was, 366 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: you know, King of England. This is late twelve hundred's 367 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: early thirt hundreds had a favorite, Pierce, Pierce Gaveston, who 368 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: sort of had exclusive access to the king. It was 369 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 1: heavily implied this was a romantic relationship. I mean, I 370 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: would argue that it absolutely is romantic, if not sexual, 371 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 1: but medieval chroniclers, so even at the time people were 372 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: writing that this relationship is sexual. Um. Christopher Marlowe, the 373 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 1: playwright sort of a contemporary of Shakespeare, basically says as 374 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: much in the play Edward the Second, and some modern 375 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: historians I think disagree on the extent of the sexual relationship, 376 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: but he was very much his favorite, and it's a 377 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: it's tragic story. I mean, basically, the other nobles don't 378 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: like this favoritism, and they retaliate against him, and they 379 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: retaliate against Pearce, and like, this is a time when 380 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 1: even being king could only go so far at certain points, 381 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: because again, marriage at this time is not about happiness. 382 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: It's about securing this religious political alliance and having airs 383 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 1: and a lover of the same sex. And I think 384 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: it was sort of a sometimes it don't ask, don't 385 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: tell policy of certain monarchs, and sometimes it really was 386 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: politically damaging. I mean, part of what led to Marie 387 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: Antoinette's downfall was the incredible amount of political propaganda against her, 388 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: which were cartoons of her engaged in sexual lesbian acts 389 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: with her closest ladies in waiting. And so I think 390 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: it is a challenge of historians today to sort of 391 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: tease out when these relationships were set told because obviously 392 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: gay people existed, because people existed, um, But yeah, the 393 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: sources are tricky, and I think because for so much 394 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: of European history, Christianity was so deeply ingrained in Yeah, exactly, 395 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: So queer relationships were both powerful tools of propaganda because 396 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: accusing some of it someone of it was obviously incredibly damaging, 397 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: but also something that someone would have kept a secret. 398 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: You also have that great episode on the person whose 399 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: name I am not going to remember the French um, yes, yes, exactly, 400 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: which is such a great story. It's so interesting to 401 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: untangle it and and I won't go into the whole story, 402 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: but it is. Um. I like to think of a 403 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: person who chose of her own free will to live 404 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: as a woman and even though we wouldn't have had 405 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: or they wouldn't have had the vocabulary to call themselves 406 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: trans I think it's so interesting to remind people that know, 407 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: for hundreds of years people made these decisions. Is there 408 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: a time that you can peg it too? In terms 409 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: of when, I don't remember when the sort of modern 410 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: sensibility about what romantic love is and how it plays 411 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: into marriage. I can't remember when that sort of entered 412 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: the society in the Western world anyway. But in the 413 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: sense of royal marriages, I don't think they are any 414 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 1: more meant to be about international alliances. At least again 415 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: in Europe they still have that. Now their success right 416 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: is just through the roofs. Getherway with that, and they're 417 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: they're that all works. Yeah, but was there a moment 418 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: where it shifted. I think one of the key moment, 419 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: at least in my understanding, is the relationship between Queen 420 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: Victoria and Prince Albert. This was a situation where Victoria 421 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,959 Speaker 1: fell head over heels in love and she was devoted 422 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 1: to Albert to a fault. I mean, she loved her 423 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: husband so much that when he died, she spent the 424 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: rest of her life in mourning. I mean it's so 425 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: funny because obviously the Victorian era so powerful, and we 426 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: imagine her as such a large I mean she's tiny, 427 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: she's like, you know, four ft ten, but a larger 428 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: than life figure in in English history. And she was 429 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: obsessed with her husband to a degree that I think, 430 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: like nowadays people would be jealous of. I'm like, oh 431 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 1: my god. She hated having children. She they had you know, 432 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: ten children, and she absolutely hated having children. But she 433 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: just loved being intimate with her husband. And no one 434 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: taught her about birth control. So you know, she was like, say, lovey, 435 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: they were what you gotta do, You do what you 436 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: gotta do. I mean, she had a this is a 437 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: one a young woman who had a very very controlled childhood. 438 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: When she was born, she was the basically air apparent 439 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 1: eventually after her father, after her uncle died, she was 440 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: she's the only legitimate granddaughter of King Charles the Third, 441 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: King Jesus christ Um, King George the Third. King Charles 442 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: the Third is right now, he has a lot of whatever. 443 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: She's the only legitimate granddaughter of King George. She is 444 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: born and she's this precious thing, and so she's raised 445 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: under this incredibly strict system called the Kensington system, with 446 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 1: where her mother like basically doesn't let her be a 447 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: person until she actually is literally Queen of England. And 448 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 1: so by falling in love and marrying this man, it's 449 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: sort of her her act of rebellion and freedom. She 450 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: sort of pushes her mother and her mother's adviser out 451 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 1: of her orbit and focuses all of her attention on 452 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: on Albert, and they have an incredibly by all accounts, 453 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: happy marriage and life for the you know, for the 454 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: years they have together. She empower him in an unusual way. 455 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: They had a partnership. Really, I mean, I guess the 456 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 1: question is, what is a new It's unusual at all 457 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: that it was in a late eighteen hundreds marriage where 458 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: the woman had a more important job than the man. 459 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, and probably also relatively rare for a marriage 460 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: steeped in romantic love to be successful, because most people 461 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: had nothing, and so most people had very hard life, 462 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: and so even if they were in love with their spouse, 463 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: it may not have played out so great, you know, 464 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: through all the years. But I'm of course contrasting it 465 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: to the popular understanding or fantasy about Queen Elizabeth and 466 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: Prince Philip's relationship where you know, from what I can 467 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: gather in certainly what I imagine to be true that 468 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: that it was tough for a man to be second 469 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: to his female spouse. And I don't know if there's 470 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 1: any um, you know, if there was any agitating on 471 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: Albert's part, if the if the adoration was enough for him, 472 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: if it was just you know, I'm here for you 473 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: because you're so wonderful to me, and together we will 474 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, found many museums have all these babies and 475 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: have a great life. I think, you know, it's hard 476 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: for me to get into these people's heads. So a 477 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: lot of this is guesswork. I think Victoria was so 478 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,479 Speaker 1: deferential to Albert that he felt okay, you know, and 479 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: I think it was a little bit harder, weirdly for Philip, 480 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,479 Speaker 1: because again, this is like the nineteen fifties, right, This 481 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: is like when the idea of masculinity is at it's 482 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: real mad men peak. And here's a situation where you know, 483 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: under Victoria she was an empress. This is like, Okay, 484 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: the monarchy is at the height of its actual power, 485 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: whereas like Queen Elizabeth, like this is a symbolic role 486 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: largely at this point, and so it's you know, maybe 487 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: he had less of a inherent difference reference reverence, and 488 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: so I think it might have been a little harder 489 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: when they got into the argument they did have where 490 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: he was like, wait, so my kids aren't going to 491 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: have my name. She's like, no, are you? I mean 492 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: she's like she didn't say this. But if if it 493 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: was me, I would have been like, are you effing 494 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: kidding me? They're going to have like my last name, 495 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: that's the Queen Victoria's last name. They're kind of your 496 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: made up German last name. Like, what are you talking about? Well, 497 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: I think that would have gone very well. If you 498 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: would be like that, I would have been great to 499 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: be married time. I would have been like are you 500 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: are you absolutely kidding me? And I have to think 501 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: that the era of um sort of media awareness that 502 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: they existed in would have made it much more difficult 503 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: to because he's getting you know, feedback from everyone about 504 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: their relationship rather than just managing it privately. Just just 505 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: a lot harder, right, He's hearing every comment of someone 506 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: saying like, oh, can you believe this guy walking one 507 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: step behind his wife? We're also queen Victoria was so 508 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 1: deferential to her husband, where even though she was the queen, 509 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: like I mean some she's she's using a lot of 510 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds language and talking about her She like worships 511 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: and obeys her husband, And so I feel like he 512 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: would have been okay with that. You know, she covered 513 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: it because this is again she she is so obsequious 514 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: and deferential to him that it would have been hard 515 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: for him to get mad. Where it's like Queen Elizabeth. 516 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: This is a sort of trickier situation, just as the 517 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: monarchy is that this is a weird like modernizing crux 518 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: like feminism and masculinity, and the patriarchy is changing in 519 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: the twentieth century. I feel like we can't not talk 520 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: about Wallis Simpson just a little team of good and 521 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: I think most people probably know exactly who Wallis Simpson is, 522 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: but just in case they missed it, came to do 523 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: a quick overview of that. Sure um, King George five 524 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: had two sons, and the oldest son obviously is in 525 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: line to inherit the throne and he becomes King Edward 526 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: the eighth, but he falls in love with a divorced 527 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: American actress named Wallace Simpson, and as the head of 528 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: the Church of England, it's against church laws to marry 529 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: a divorce if their spouse is still alive. She's a 530 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: divorcee with a living spouse. That's big of me, like, 531 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: you can't do that. And also for a bunch of 532 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: other reasons, like he fundamentally was ill suited to being king, 533 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: and he was a Nazi sympathizer, which we won't go 534 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: into because I'll just get mad. But he abdicates the 535 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: throne in favor of his younger brother, who becomes George 536 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: the six who is Queen Elizabeth the Seconds father, and 537 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: so that's why we have the line we have now. 538 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: But Wallace Simpson was this uh yeah, divorced American woman 539 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: who scandalized the royal family by falling in love with 540 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: uh with David, but who took the regular name King 541 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: Edward the Eighth, and uh yeah, he abdicated the throne 542 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: and they they instead of being King and Queen, they 543 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: went with the Duke and Duchess of Windsor. She never 544 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: got her royal highness, which is sort of like an 545 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: honorary title, because that was sort of them sticking it 546 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: to her, and they lived sort of the rest of 547 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,239 Speaker 1: their lives in France, visited, you know, chumming it up 548 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: with Hitler, thinking well, maybe if this Hitler chap wants 549 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: to put us back on the throne, that would be fun, 550 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't it. Oh. I didn't realize there was that element 551 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: to that relationship. It was sealed until very recently. This 552 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: is a sort of thing that the royal family has 553 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: not hize broadcast, but there are yeah, photographs, uh, and 554 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: when you have a photograph smiling next to Hitler, it's 555 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: not a good look. But no, that especially during the 556 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: Second World War obviously when Germany was the enemy, the 557 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: British Royal family tried very hard to make sure that 558 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: it was suppressed that that m Wallace and and David 559 00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: were cozying up or had been cozying with with the Amon's. 560 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, they they sort of had this I think 561 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 1: what they characterized as this love story that he was 562 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: willing to give up the throne for her, but I 563 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: think for a lot of other reasons he was ill 564 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: suited to being king, and I'm I'm glad he wasn't. Yeah, 565 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: no kidding, is is there another example of that happening 566 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: that you know of of someone falling in love and 567 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: giving up there seat of power. Well, if we're also 568 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: talking also about um, queer possibly queer monarchs. There was 569 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: a Queen of Sweden named Queen Christina who uh some 570 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: people argue was lesbian or or would have been. She 571 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: she favored men's dress. Uh, she was, you know, Queen 572 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:54,359 Speaker 1: of Sweden, but but resigned for whether it was religious reasons. 573 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: She refused to marry, which was its own scandal, then 574 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: converted to Catholicism secretly. And oh, I think she she's 575 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,720 Speaker 1: buried in the Vatican and is either the only woman 576 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: buried in the Vatican or one of only a few 577 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: women buried in the Vatican. But she's someone who gave 578 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: up her throne not for a man, but for a 579 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 1: lack of man. I just wanted to add that in 580 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: the realm of people who are significantly influential, I have 581 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 1: to say that your podcast. Without it, I don't know 582 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,479 Speaker 1: that I would have ever thought to do what I'm doing. 583 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: Not that that's any great shakes for the world, but 584 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: but um, but I'm grateful. I'm so grateful that you 585 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,800 Speaker 1: do what you do. And um, I feel you're a trailblazer. 586 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: And I personally have benefited from that, so thank you. 587 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that is the truly, the genuinely kindest 588 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: thing anyone has said. I feel very lucky that people 589 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: let me rant into a microphone about historical figures I 590 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 1: find interesting and I am. I love when when that 591 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: exists more in the world. So I'm very excited for 592 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: what you're doing. Well. Thank you so much. Um. Do 593 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: you have anything that you want to be working on 594 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: a couple of books? I don't know if you have 595 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,359 Speaker 1: anything that you want to plug or promote or send 596 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: us to, Oh my gosh, that would be great. I 597 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: have a new book coming out in February called Immortality, 598 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: a Love Story. And if you're interested in historical royals, 599 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 1: I have a few cameos. I have Princess Charlotte of 600 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: Wales appears, Lord Byron appears, a few other characters I've 601 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: talked about on my podcast. But it's available for preorder. No, 602 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 1: that book sounds amazing. UM. Too late for this Christmas, 603 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 1: but definitely in time for Valentine's Day. Absolutely, thank you 604 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: so much. This is such a pleasure. Thank you so 605 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: much for listening, and thanks again to Dana for joining us. 606 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 1: If you haven't already, please check out her podcast, Noble 607 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,359 Speaker 1: Blood wherever you get your podcasts. I promise you won't 608 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 1: be disappointed. We'll continue to release bonus episodes while we 609 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 1: work on season two, so be sure to hit the 610 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 1: subscribe button, and as always, we welcome any and all 611 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: suggestions for upcoming episodes. You can email us at significant 612 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: pod at gmail dot com