1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, this is Danish Schwartz. You probably noticed this 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: is not a normal episode of Noble Blood, and that's 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 1: because I was a guest on the podcast Significant Others, 4 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: hosted by the incredibly fun and charming Liza Paul O'Brien. 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: We just had a blast talking about well significant others 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: in history, famous spouses of monarchs and nobles, which has 7 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: been a topic that we've covered on this show, but 8 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: it was just so fun to be able to chat 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: about it casually with Liza. So I really hope you 10 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. And of 11 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: course your regular episode will be coming Tuesday. 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Significant Others. I'm Liza Powell O'Brien, and 13 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: just because I'm deep in research for season two doesn't 14 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 2: mean we have to stop bringing you stories of interesting 15 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 2: plus ones. In the first of these bonus episodes, Stacy 16 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 2: Schiff and I talked about her new book, The Revolutionary, 17 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 2: which is all about Samuel Adams and his wildly underreported 18 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: role in the birth of America. So check that one 19 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: out if you haven't already. And as royal relationships are 20 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 2: very much in the media these days, even more than usual, 21 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 2: I thought it would be interesting to delve a little 22 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 2: bit into the idea of a royal marriage in general, 23 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 2: since there really isn't anything else like it, and to 24 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 2: talk about a few of the more significant examples of 25 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 2: what that kind of a marriage can look like. So 26 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 2: I reached out to the Absolute Queen no pun intended 27 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 2: of such information, historian, author and host of the delightful 28 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 2: podcast Noble Blood, Dana Schwartz. Dana, thank you so much 29 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 2: for talking with us today. For anyone who's listening who 30 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 2: might not already be familiar with your podcast, could you 31 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about it. 32 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. It's a scripted podcast where I research and 33 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: write episodes, every episode exploring sort of a lesser known 34 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: story from the lives of royals throughout history. Some are 35 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: sort of lesser known stories or aspects about really famous 36 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: people like Marie Antoinette or Anne Bolin, but I also 37 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: try to capture, you know, fascinating stories about people that 38 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: maybe American listeners might not have even heard about, Like 39 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 1: I just recorded an episode about this Portuguese princess named 40 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: Annez di Castro queen actually but sort of her gruesome 41 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: and tragic death. So yeah, a lot of perhaps surprising 42 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: amount of royal stories and in gruesome deaths, but that's 43 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:32,119 Speaker 1: part of the fun. 44 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 2: It's so addictive your podcast, I have to really, honestly, 45 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 2: it's almost problematic because I'll start listening to them and 46 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 2: then i realize four hours have gone by and I've 47 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 2: done I've attended to no children, I've cooked no meals. 48 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 2: So you have to limit your intake. That's how good 49 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: it is. 50 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: The highest phrase. 51 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 2: So in this podcast, we focus on intimate relationships. Sometimes 52 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 2: parents are friends of historical figures. You ually it's a spouse. 53 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 2: That's because I've always been really personally fascinated by intense, 54 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: one on more relationships, especially marriages. And one of the 55 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 2: things I find especially interesting in marriages is power dynamics 56 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 2: and how they differ, and when it comes to royal marriages, 57 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 2: which is sort of falling under your umbrella of expertise, 58 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: I find that to be so specific because there's such 59 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 2: an inherent power imbalance baked in from the beginning. Absolutely, 60 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 2: and I have just observed myself that there's a whole 61 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 2: range of responses that humans throughout history have had to 62 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 2: this condition of being put in the position of being 63 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: a royal spouse. And you know, everything from totally compliant 64 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 2: to completely revolutionary, and I thought you might be the 65 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 2: best person to walk us through some of those examples. 66 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 2: So I'm just wondering if you can whatever comes to 67 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 2: you in response to that idea of like, what are 68 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 2: the different ways that this kind of relationship has played out? 69 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: Absolutely, I think the power dynamic that you're pointing out 70 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: is so important when we're talking about royal marriages. One 71 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: because traditionally, let's say, for several hundred years, it would 72 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 1: be a man in charge of any marriage, you know, 73 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: any family relationship, and then to give someone the power 74 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: of you know, absolute rule, God's vessel on earth, that 75 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: power sort of takes on an even bigger light. I 76 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: think when we're talking about royal wives, the first thing 77 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 1: that pops into most people's heads is King Henry the 78 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: Eighth and his six wives, and what a fascinating saga 79 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: that is because of the way he went from woman 80 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: to woman, and I think in the stories these women 81 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: sort of are unfortunately always sort of seen in response 82 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: to him. And I think it's been a modern movement, 83 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: like in the musical six to try to reclaim their 84 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: own agency and sort of the narrative potential of them. 85 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: I mean, you think of someone like Henry the Eighth's 86 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: first wife, Catherine of Aragon, who was his loyal wife 87 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 1: at his side for twenty plus years. I mean, this 88 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: is a woman who was a princess in her own right, 89 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: the daughter of two of the most important monarchs in Europe, 90 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: the aunt of the Holy Roman Emperor. Like the most 91 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: connected and powerful individual a woman can be at this time, 92 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: really right, like she's the Queen of England, her parents 93 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: are a king and a queen. Her family is massively 94 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 1: powerful throughout Europe. Her you know, nephew. At a certain point, sachs, 95 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: the Vatican has the Vatican under his control. She has 96 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: all the mechanisms of power. And yet because this woman, 97 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: even though she's been a loyal, loving wife for twenty 98 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: plus years, even though the kingdom loves her, you know, 99 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: she's seen as this pious woman because she hasn't provided 100 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: Henry with a son, he does everything in his power 101 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: to dispose of her. And he he does. I mean, 102 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 1: even though, again, like the stop gaps in place to 103 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 1: prevent a man just from saying I don't want to 104 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: be married to you anymore. At this point, are I mean, 105 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: he's the head of the church and she's a subject, 106 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: a subject, but they're Catholic, right, Like, he can't divorce. 107 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: He will literally separate from the Catholic Church, become excommunicated, 108 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: start the Church of England. He will do everything in 109 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: his power to undermine their marriage, and she has she 110 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: plays all of her cards and it doesn't work like that. 111 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: I think the tragedy of that is so emblematic of 112 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: the way that a man has power over his wife 113 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: in certain ways. But then and again, not too monologue 114 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: and ramble because. 115 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: I love already, give me the popcorn, I'm ready to go. 116 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: You put a microphone in front of me and I start, 117 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, and then you have a situation 118 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: like Catherine the Great who it's this very strange different 119 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: dynamic where Catherine the Great is a German princess from 120 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: a low born family is sort of brought in to 121 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: marry the heir to the Russian throne because they think 122 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: she's sort of going to be easily controlled. Again, she 123 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: has none of the entrenched political power that someone like 124 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: Catherine Bergen would have had. But over the course of 125 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: her marriage to Peter, Katherine ingratiates herself to the Russian people, 126 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: converts to Russian orthodoxy in a way that like the 127 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: people fall in love with learns the Russian language. There's 128 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: a story about her she catches still very early on 129 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: in her marriage and the store, and she's bedridden, and 130 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: the story that sort of spreads that feeds into her 131 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: legend is that she was up at night pacing on 132 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: the cold floor studying Russian and that's why people like 133 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: fall in love with her. And her husband is such 134 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: an ineffective, bad emperor in so many ways that six 135 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,239 Speaker 1: month into his reign, even though she wasn't Russian born, 136 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: even though she wasn't heir to the throne, even though 137 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: she really has no claim to the Russian throne in 138 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: any legitimate way. We might imagine through lineage, she rallies 139 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: the the armies behind her, the people behind her, the 140 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: church behind her, and overthrows her own husband. 141 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 2: So she was ambitious. So it's sort of like there 142 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 2: are these that Catherine Verragon. I don't know how ambitious 143 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 2: she might have been. Amberleyn as always protat and prigade 144 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 2: is very ambitious, yeah right, And I don't again, I 145 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 2: don't know so much. Myth has been made about all 146 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 2: of Henry's well Henry himself and all of his wives. 147 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 2: And I don't know, I sort of love the idea 148 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 2: of Amboleyn as like a you know, a schemer. I 149 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 2: don't know how much it was the right place, right time, 150 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 2: you know. 151 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: I mean, it's she she had a very limited opportunity, right, 152 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: It's like her family is saying, like, do this thing. 153 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: This is the one thing you're supposed to do. This 154 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: is how to advance as a woman. I mean, in 155 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: the fifteen hundred's, advancing as a woman. 156 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: Was yeah yeah, and then not getting beaded. 157 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: And if the king wants you your you're you have 158 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: fewer cards to play than than maybe people think. And 159 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: I my Anne Boleyn hot take is I think she 160 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: played her cards magnificently and if she had happened to 161 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: have a son, she would have been fine. And because 162 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: she didn't, uh, these things, yeah yeah, these things, these 163 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: things haven't but like it was an impossible situation, right, 164 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: And then the patriarchy does that to us. 165 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 2: So when was the first appointed royal spouse who was male? 166 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I guess it depends on if we're going 167 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: to count Empress Matilda. So there's are you watching the 168 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: new Game of Thrones by chance? 169 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 2: I'm not. 170 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: I'm not okay. So for people who are watching House 171 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: the Dragon, the character Raniera, like the young princess who 172 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: is claiming queen, is sort of based on this figure 173 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: named Empress Matilda, who, depending on who you ask, counts 174 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: or doesn't count as a monarch of England. So she 175 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: was the daughter of King Henry the First. His only 176 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: legitimate son, William, died in a ship disaster, a ship 177 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: crashed against some rocks, and so her father said, my 178 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: daughter Matilda is my heir. Of course, then her father dies, 179 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: and a lot of people in eleven hundred England say, no. 180 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 2: We do not. 181 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: I know, we swore for fealty to her when your 182 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: father is alive. But your father is not alive anymore, 183 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: and so there becomes a civil war in England known 184 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: as the Anarchy, and her nephew cousin, nephew, I'm going 185 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: to get this wrong, and so I hope no one 186 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: angrily corructs me a relative, either a cousin or nephew. 187 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 1: Stephen is sort of the counter faction who then claims power. 188 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: But Matilda, who was fighting in the civil war, for 189 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,719 Speaker 1: her right to the throne. Had her husband, Jeffrey, who 190 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: was focused on conquering Normandy, which was also considered part 191 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 1: of the English crown's power at that time, so that 192 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: that's sort of an interesting husband fascinating There's there are 193 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: other few sort of interesting dynamics where a wife has 194 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: technically higher claim at a given time, Like Mary, Queen 195 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: of Scots was married to a Prince of France who 196 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 1: then became the King of France. But at the time 197 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: that they were married, she was the Queen of Scotland. 198 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: Her mother was ruling in her stead and her half 199 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: brother was sort of ruling while she was in France. 200 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: But she was the independent queen of a country married 201 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: to the Duffaut France, and that had its own interesting 202 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: political called dynamics because being but unfortunately, as Mary Queen 203 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: of Scott's learned, like her marriages only ever really diminished 204 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: her power. She makes the terrible decision to marry this 205 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: man named Lord Darnley, who she had been charmed by 206 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: but was a terrible match. He dies in mysterious uh 207 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: an explosion that was, and then he was found strangled 208 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: like there was a murder attempt because he was awful, 209 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: and Mary, Queen of scott was sort of like, oh, no, 210 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: my husband died, that's so sad. I'm you know, I'll 211 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 1: definitely look into what happened. But the people of Scotland 212 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: at the time see that and don't like that. That's 213 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: her reaction. And then she marries, in her third marriage, 214 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: the man who was implicated in her second husband's death, 215 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: which the people of Scotland absolutely hate. Some historians say 216 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: she didn't have a choice in that matter, that you know, 217 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: he raped and kidnapped her. Some say that, you know, 218 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: she just made a terrible calculation. But either way, those 219 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: were two matches that ultimately diminished her power, and someone 220 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: like her cousin, Elizabeth the First of England, realized that 221 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: she's already queen. Marrying a man is only gonna compromise 222 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: compromise her power, thank you exactly. 223 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 2: And so is she the only example? She's the most 224 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 2: obvious example of an unmarried female monarch. Is there other? 225 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 2: Is there anyone else who did. 226 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: That in England? No, I'm sure around the world there are, 227 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: and I just off the top of my head can't recall. Uh, 228 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: it's definitely absolutely several African monarchs and queens, but in England, 229 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: no queen. Elizabeth made the calculation of ruling as a 230 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: virgin queen. But there's a benefit of that, right, which 231 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: is that she doesn't have to submit to a man. 232 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: But the cost of that is it's the end of 233 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: the Tudor dynasty because she doesn't have airs. And at 234 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: the end of the day, the purpose of a of 235 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: a monarchy is to create your dynasty, have it keep going, 236 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: create airs. And I think part of the problem also, 237 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: especially in the fifteen hundreds, if we're talking about Elizabeth 238 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: the first childbirth is is a is a very dangerous prospect? Sure, 239 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: so it's that's it's very much a bodily risk. 240 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 2: That's right. So to put the monarch through that kind 241 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 2: of a trial from which what percentage of women didn't 242 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 2: you know emerge successfully at thirty percent? You know? Sure, Yeah, 243 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 2: I'm totally making that and I'm like. 244 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: That that sounds right. I don't know if the top 245 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: of it, it's very it's dangerous, right, you're putting the 246 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: monarch in, that's right, a very vulnerable position. 247 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 2: Right in terms of the selection process, for lack of 248 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 2: a better phrase, for these royal partners. You know, we 249 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 2: know sort of in pop culture what the story is about, 250 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 2: you know, the current royal family in England or the 251 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: most recent generation. But was there like, was it selected 252 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 2: by the ruling monarch, was there a council? Was it 253 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 2: the family? Was it all of the above? How did 254 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 2: that work? 255 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: The family in most cases? Because you are absolutely correct 256 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: that these are not decisions very often made for love. 257 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: These are strategic decisions. The role of marriage for a 258 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: lot of you know, Western history from a certain you know, 259 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: from at least as long as we have, like the 260 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: English monarchy recorded, it was to secure alliances. It was 261 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: to secure political or religious alliances, to combine land dowries 262 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: were important, and so yeah, love was sort of a 263 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: something reserved for poor people, I. 264 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 2: Suppose, right, like almost a luxury that the monarchy couldn't afford, right, Yeah, 265 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 2: and I can't worry about that. 266 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: It was very much understood, especially in France at the time. 267 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: Royal mistress was an official position, right with a salary 268 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: and the apartments that you lived in. It was yeah, 269 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: that's the ticket, right, So it was the thing of 270 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: it akin to I mean, it wasn't marriage obviously, because 271 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: marriage was considered this very political, legal, religious, institution, but 272 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: it was almost a marriage of sorts because by appointing 273 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: someone your royal mistress, they have an official position in 274 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: your life. And so I think in France it was 275 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: very much understood that your wife is to fulfill this 276 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: certain role and your mistress is to fulfill another role. 277 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: And I actually think, now you've gotten me on my 278 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: high horse. This is sort of a pet subject of mine. 279 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: It was to Marie Antoinette's detriment that her husband never 280 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: did take a mistress. Her husband, Louis the sixteenth, was 281 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: sort of awkward. It took them seven years to consummate 282 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: their marriage. He was not a very sexual person. I 283 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: think sometimes people like to think, what was he gay? 284 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: And I think no. I think more likely he just 285 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: was maybe closer to asexual. He just wasn't very sexual. 286 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: And Marie Antoinette, because he never had an official royal 287 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 1: mistress to sort of defer court attention and gossip and 288 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 1: the more frivolous aspects of courtly life, Marie Antoinette was 289 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: in this unfortunate position of being forced to do both, 290 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,199 Speaker 1: where she was both the one that everyone looked to 291 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: for fashion and style and gossip, but also at the 292 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: same time, she was expected to be, you know, the 293 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: royal mother and the queen and honor that position with 294 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: the dignity they expected. There's a famous example of a 295 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: portrait that was painted in seventeen eighty three of Marie 296 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: Antoinette in a simple Muslim gown, like a chemise style 297 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: gown that was meant to evoke farm simplicity. She was 298 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: doing seventeen eighty's cottage Corps, and that was very fashionable 299 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: at the time for rich people to sort of play 300 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 1: at simplicity, you know, the way I think people kind 301 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: of do on TikTok today, like baking bread. But at 302 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: the time this portrait was so scandalous that it was 303 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: pulled from display because the first response was that it 304 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: was too sexual, that it looked like she was in 305 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: her undergarments, that it was so casual, and that as 306 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: a queen, she she you know, she was dishonoring the 307 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: position as queen, the status, the title, the status that 308 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: she held. 309 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 2: She was sullying herself, selling the position of queen. 310 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: And also, you know, imagine she's trying to put the 311 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,239 Speaker 1: French silk merchants out of business by now wearing a 312 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: silk gown and so it was this sort of horrible 313 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: thing where it backfired on every count where. I think 314 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: common people in France saw her as being condescending, you know, 315 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: sort of like slumming it where they're like, what are 316 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: you doing? You know the way that I think if 317 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: we saw, you know, a celebrity today making rice and 318 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: beans and being like, oh I love eating or whatever, 319 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 1: you know, some like very casual food where you're like, what, Like, 320 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 1: that's not what you are. But then the rich people 321 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: were like, you are sellying your position as queen, and 322 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 1: so it fully backfired on every account. 323 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 2: Where did this line up with her farm that she 324 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 2: famously created behind Versailles. 325 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: We are exactly there. You absolutely nailed it. She had 326 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: people also make fun of this a lot. She had 327 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: this thing called the Queen's Hamlet, which was a working 328 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: It was a model farm, but it was a working 329 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: dairy farm where she went to escape because Versailles was 330 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 1: like being in a fish bowl. You are always watched, 331 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: and every step from the order in which you get 332 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: dressed in the morning to your meals is watched and 333 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: perfectly choreographed. And so of course, like you imagine, like 334 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: she just wanted like a breather like a minute, just 335 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: to like be by herself and just hang out. And 336 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: this was actually very common in the late seventeen hundreds 337 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: of nobles building these sort faux farms to evoke as 338 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: simplicity homie exactly. So, yeah, she had a fake working farm, 339 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: and she was sort of dress up like a you know, 340 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: in more casual clothes and just spend time with her children, 341 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 1: which was also considered a very weird thing she did, right, 342 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: It was like, why are you spending all this time 343 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: parenting your children? Don't you know you can pay people 344 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: to parent your children for you. 345 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:35,959 Speaker 2: That echoes with Lady Diana and her interests. Also, you 346 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 2: said something that I have been very curious about since 347 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 2: I listened to your episode on The Mad King. King 348 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 2: George the Third. We're talking about how he, whatever his 349 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 2: affliction was, was sort of at bay for many years, 350 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 2: and he became ill later in his life, but there 351 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 2: was a long period of time where he was sort 352 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 2: of managing the royal business fairly well, and he had 353 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 2: all these siblings who were sort of crazy. I mean, 354 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 2: they were all acting insane, and nobody was marrying who 355 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 2: they were supposed to marry. And I was just thinking 356 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 2: about like, you know, I don't hear much just as 357 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 2: a lay person, and I don't know how big an 358 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 2: area of scholarship it is. But of these royals who 359 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 2: you know, were with this incredibly strict and conventional idea 360 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 2: of marriage and partnership in that way, Like what what 361 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 2: of the you know, the queer royals through history? Like 362 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 2: do we know anything about any of them? And you know, 363 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 2: I'm sure their fate was complicated if it was recorded 364 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 2: at all, But do you know anything about any of that? 365 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, we have a few interesting stories. So there was 366 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: King Edward the Second of England and this is now 367 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: in the late twelve hundreds, and there was a man. 368 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: I mean because so much of it isn't recorded the 369 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: way that I think modern sources would want it to 370 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: be recorded. And I think these these things are complicated 371 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: because I don't think these the character characters. The people 372 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: at the time wouldn't have called themselves gay or queer. 373 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: That vocabulary didn't exist. And so I, as like an 374 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 1: untrained historian, I am always like wary to put these 375 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: labels on people. But King Edward the Second of England, 376 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 1: who was you know, king of England? This is late 377 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: twelve hundreds early thirteen hundreds had a favorite, Pierce Galveston, 378 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 1: who sort of had exclusive access to the king. It 379 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 1: was heavily implied this was a romantic relationship. I mean, 380 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: I would argue that it absolutely is romantic, if not sexual, 381 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: but medieval chronicler, so even at the time people were 382 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 1: writing that this relationship is sexual. Christopher Marlow, the playwright 383 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: sort of a contemporary of Shakespeare, basically says as much 384 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: in the play Edward the Second, and some modern historians 385 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: I think disagree on the extent of the sexual relationship, 386 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: but he was very much his favorite and tragic story 387 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 1: I mean basically that other nobles don't like this favoritism, sure, 388 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: and they retaliate against him, and they retaliate against peers, 389 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: and like, this is a time when even being king 390 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: could only go so far at certain points, because again, 391 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: marriage at this time is not about happiness. It's about 392 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:26,239 Speaker 1: securing this religious political alliance and having heirs and a 393 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: lover of the same sex. In I think it was 394 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: sort of a sometimes a don't ask, don't tell policy 395 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: of certain monarchs, and sometimes it really was politically damaging. 396 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: I mean, part of what led to Marie Antoinette's downfall 397 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: was the incredible amount of political propaganda against her, which 398 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,479 Speaker 1: were cartoons of her engaged in sexual lesbian acts with 399 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 1: her closest ladies in waiting. And so I think it 400 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: is a challenge of historians today to sort of tease 401 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: out when these relationships were sex because obviously gay people existed, 402 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: because people existed, but yeah, the sources are tricky, and 403 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 1: I think because for so much of European history Christianity 404 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: was so deeply ingrained in exactly so, queer relationships were 405 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: both powerful tools of propaganda because accusing some of it 406 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: someone of it was obviously incredibly damaging, but also something 407 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: that someone would have kept a secret. 408 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 2: You also have that great episode on the person whose 409 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 2: name I am not going to remember the French, yes exactly, 410 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 2: which is such a great story. 411 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 1: It's so interesting to untangle it, and I won't go 412 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: into the whole story, but it is. I like to 413 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: think of a person who chose of her own free 414 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: will to live as a woman, and even though we 415 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: wouldn't have had or they wouldn't have had the vocabulary 416 00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: to call themselves trans I think it's so interesting to 417 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: remind people that know, for hundreds of years people made 418 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: these decisions. 419 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 2: Right, Is there a time that you can peg it 420 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 2: to in terms of when, I don't remember when the 421 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 2: sort of modern sensibility about what romantic love is and 422 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 2: how it plays into marriage. I can't remember when that 423 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 2: sort of entered the society in the Western world anyway. 424 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 2: But in the sense of royal marriages, I don't think 425 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 2: they are any more meant to be about international alliances, 426 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 2: at least again in Europe. 427 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, they still had that. Now their success rate is 428 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: just through the roof. We set away with that and 429 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: they all work all the problems. 430 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, but was there a moment where it shifted. 431 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: I think one of the key moments, at least in 432 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: my understanding, is the relationship between Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. 433 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 1: This was a situation where Victoria fell head over heels 434 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: in love and she was devoted to Albert to a fault. 435 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: I mean, she loved her husband so much that when 436 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: he died, she spent the rest of her life in mourning. 437 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: I mean it's so funny because obviously the Victorian era 438 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 1: is so powerful, and we imagine her as such a 439 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: large I mean, she's tiny, She's like you know, four 440 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: foot ten, but a larger than life figure in English history. 441 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: And she was obsessed with her husband to a degree 442 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: that I think, like nowadays people would be jealous of 443 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: the I'm like, oh my god. She hated having children. 444 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: They had you know, ten children, and she absolutely hated 445 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: having children. But she just loved being intimate with her husband. 446 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: And no one taught her about birth control, so you know, 447 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: she was like, say lovey, they. 448 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 2: Were do what you gotta do. 449 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: You do what you gotta do. I mean she had 450 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: This is a young woman who had a very very 451 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: controlled childhood. When she was born, she was the basically 452 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: heir apparent eventually after her father, after her uncle died, 453 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: she was She's the only legitimate granddaughter of King Charles 454 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 1: the Third, King Jesus Christ, King George the third. King 455 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: Charles the Third is right now. He has a lot 456 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: of vide. She's the only legitimate granddaughter of King George. 457 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: She is born and she's this precious thing, and so 458 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: she's raised under this incredibly strict system called the Kensington system, 459 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: with where her mother like basically doesn't let her be 460 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: a person until she actually is literally Queen of England, 461 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: and so by falling in love and marrying this man. 462 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: It's sort of her her active rebellion and freedom. She 463 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: sort of pushes her mother and her mother's adviser out 464 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: of her orbit and focuses all of her attention on 465 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 1: on Albert. And they have an incredibly by all accounts, 466 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: happy marriage and life for the you know, for the 467 00:27:58,560 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 1: years they have together. 468 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 2: She empower him in an unusual way. 469 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: They had a partnership. Really, I mean, I guess the 470 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: question is, what is it's unusual at all that it 471 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: was in a late eighteen hundred's marriage where the woman 472 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: had a more important job than the man. 473 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, and probably also relatively rare for a marriage 474 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 2: steeped in romantic love to be successful, because most people 475 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 2: had nothing, and so most people had a very hard life, 476 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:30,959 Speaker 2: and so even if they were in love with their spouse, 477 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 2: it may not have played out so great, you know, 478 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 2: through all the years. But I'm of course contrasting it 479 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 2: to the popular understanding or fantasy about Queen Elizabeth and 480 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 2: Prince Philip's relationship, where you know, from what I can 481 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 2: gather and certainly what I imagine to be true, that 482 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 2: it was tough for a man to be second to 483 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 2: his female spouse. And I don't know if there's any 484 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 2: you know, if there was any agitating on Albert's parter, 485 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 2: if the autoration was enough for him, if it was 486 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 2: just you know, I'm here for you because you're so 487 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 2: wonderful to me, and together we will you know, found 488 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 2: many museums to have all these babies and have a 489 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 2: great life. 490 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: I think, you know, it's hard for me to get 491 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: into these people's heads. So a lot of this is guesswork. 492 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 2: Sure. 493 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: I think Victoria was so deferential to Albert that he 494 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: felt okay, you know, and I think it was a 495 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: little bit harder, weirdly for Philip, because again, this is 496 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: like the nineteen fifties, right, this is like when the 497 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: idea of masculinity is at its real mad Men peak, 498 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: and here's a situation where, you know, under Victoria, she 499 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: was an empress. This is like, okay, the monarchy is 500 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: at the height of its actual power, whereas like Queen Elizabeth, 501 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: like this is a symbolic role largely at this point. 502 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: And so it's you know, maybe he had less of 503 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: a inherent deference reverence, and so I think it might 504 00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: have been a little harder when they got into the 505 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: argument that they did have where he was like, wait, 506 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: so my kids aren't going to have my name. She's like, no, 507 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: are you? I mean she's like she didn't say this, 508 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: but if it was me, I would have been like, 509 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: are you efing kidding me? They're gonna have like my 510 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: last name. That's a Queen Victoria's last name. They're kind 511 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: of your made up German last name, Like what are 512 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: you talking about? 513 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 2: Well, I think that would have gone very well if 514 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 2: you'd be like that, I. 515 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 1: Would have been great to be married to him. I 516 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: would have been like are you are you absolutely kidding me? 517 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 2: And I have to think that the era of sort 518 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 2: of media awareness that they existed in would have made 519 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 2: it much more difficult too, because he's getting, you know, 520 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 2: feedback from everyone about their relationship rather than just managing 521 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 2: it privately. 522 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: Just just a lot harder, right, He's hearing every comment 523 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: of someone saying like, oh, can you believe this guy 524 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: walking one step behind his wife? Where also Queen Victoria 525 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: was so deferential to her husband, where even though she 526 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: was the queen, like I mean, she's she's using a 527 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: lot of eighteen hundreds language and talking about how she 528 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: like worships and obeys her husband, and so I feel 529 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: like he would have been okay with that, you know, 530 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: colored it she covered it because this is again she 531 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: is so obsequious and deferential to him that it would 532 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: have been hard for him to get mad. Where it's 533 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: like Queen Elizabeth. This is a sort of trickier situation, 534 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: just as the monarchy is that there's a weird like 535 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: modernizing crux like feminism and masculinity, and the patriarchy is 536 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: changing in the twentieth century. 537 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. I feel like we can't not talk about 538 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 2: Walla Simpson just a little teeny bit, and I think 539 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 2: most people probably know exactly who Walla Simpson is, but 540 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 2: just in case they missed it, can you do a 541 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 2: quick overview of that? 542 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: Sure? King George the Fifth had two sons and the 543 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: oldest son obviously is in line to inherit the throne 544 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: and he becomes King Edward the eighth. But he falls 545 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: in love with a divorced American actress named Wala Simpson, 546 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: and as the head of the Church of England, it's 547 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: against church laws to marry a divorce if their spouse 548 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 1: is still alive. She's a divorce with a living spouse. 549 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: That's big of me, like, you can't do that. And 550 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: also for a bunch of other reasons, like he fundamentally 551 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: was ill suited to being king, and he was a 552 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: Nazi sympathizer, which we won't go into because I'll just 553 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: get mad. 554 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 2: But he. 555 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: Abdicates the throne in favor of his younger brother, who 556 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: becomes George the sixth, who is Queen Elizabeth the Second's father, 557 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: and so that's why we have the line we have now. 558 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: But Wala Simpson was this, yeah, divorced American woman who 559 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: scandalized the royal family by falling in love with David, 560 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: but who took the regnal name King Edward the eighth, 561 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: And yeah, he abdicated the throne and they they instead 562 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: of being King and Queen, they went with the Duke 563 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: and Duchess of Windsor. She never got her royal highness, 564 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: which is sort of like an honorary title, because that 565 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: was sort of them sticking it to her. And they 566 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: lived sort of the rest of their lives in France, visited, 567 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: you know, chumming it up with Hitler, thinking well, maybe 568 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: if this Hitler chap wants to put us back on 569 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: the throne, that would be fun, wouldn't it. 570 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't realize there was that element to that relationship. 571 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: It was sealed until very recently. This is a sort 572 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 1: of thing that the Royal family has not broadcasts broadcasts, 573 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: but there are, yeah, photographs, and when you have a 574 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: photograph smiling next to Hitler, it's not a good look. No, 575 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: but no that especially during the Second World War obviously 576 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: when Germany was the enemy, the British Royal Family tried 577 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: very hard to make sure that it was suppressed that 578 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: Wallace and David were cozying up or had been cozying 579 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: up with them. But yeah, they sort of had this 580 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: I think what they characterized as this love story that 581 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,399 Speaker 1: he was willing to give up the throne for her, 582 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: But I think for a lot of other reasons he 583 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: was ill suited to being king, and I'm glad he wasn't. 584 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:22,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, no kidding. Is there another example of that happening 585 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 2: that you know of, of someone falling in love and 586 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 2: giving up their seat of power? 587 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:34,320 Speaker 1: Well, if we're also talking also about possibly queer monarchs, 588 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,959 Speaker 1: there was a queen of Sweden named Queen Christina, who 589 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:44,280 Speaker 1: some people argue was lesbian or would have been she 590 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: she favored men's dress. She was, you know, Queen of Sweden, 591 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: but resigned for whether it was religious reasons. She refused 592 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: to marry, which was its own scandal, then converted to 593 00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:59,280 Speaker 1: Catholicism secretly. 594 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 2: Wow. 595 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: I think she's buried in the Vatican and is either 596 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: the only woman buried in the Vatican or one of 597 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: only a few women buried in the Vatican. But she's 598 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: someone who gave up her throne not for a man, 599 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: but for a lack of man. 600 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,399 Speaker 2: I just wanted to add that in the realm of 601 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 2: people who are significantly influential, I have to say that 602 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 2: your podcast. Without it, I don't know that I would 603 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:29,839 Speaker 2: have ever thought to do what I'm doing. Not that 604 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 2: that's any great shakes for the world, but I'm grateful. 605 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,959 Speaker 2: I'm so grateful that you do what you do, and 606 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,760 Speaker 2: I feel you're a trailblazer and I personally have benefited 607 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 2: from that. So thank you. 608 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that is the truly, the genuinely kindest 609 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: thing anyone has said. I feel very lucky that people 610 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: let me rant into a microphone about historical figures I 611 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: find interesting and I am I love when that exists. 612 00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: More in the world. So I'm very excited for what 613 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: you're doing. Well. 614 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Do you have anything that you 615 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 2: want to You're working on a couple of books. I 616 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 2: don't know if you have anything that you want to 617 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 2: plug or promote or send us to. 618 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that would be great. I have a 619 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,280 Speaker 1: new book coming out in February called Immortality, a love Story. 620 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: And if you're interested in historical royals, I have a 621 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,439 Speaker 1: few cameos. I have Princess Charlotte of Wales appears, Lord 622 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: Byron appears a few other characters I've talked about on 623 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: my podcast. But it's available for pre order. 624 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 2: No, that book sounds amazing Too late for this Christmas, 625 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 2: but definitely in time for Valentine's Day. 626 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Thank you so much. This is such a pleasure. 627 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening, and thanks again to 628 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 2: Dana for joining us. If you haven't already, please check 629 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 2: out her podcast, Noble Blood wherever you get your podcasts. 630 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 2: I promise you won't be disappointed. We'll continue to release 631 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 2: bonus episodes while we work on season two, so be 632 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 2: sure to hit the subscribe button, and as always, we 633 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 2: welcome any and all suggestions for upcoming episodes. You can 634 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 2: email us at significantpodat gmail dot com.