1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 1: One Friday morning in nineteen ninety one, Nicki Zinger and 2 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 1: her boyfriend Daniel Rischer decided to drive down to Shreveport, Louisiana, 3 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: for the day. The couple were both in their twenties 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: and they lived in Magnolia, Arkansas. Daniel was in a 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: band and he needed to take his guitar amp to 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: a repair shop in Shreveport, about an hour and a 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: half away. They stopped off to pick up some magazines 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: at the home of Nicki's mother, Linda Holly. Linda was 9 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: already at work, so Nicki left her a note and 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: the two set off. When they got back that night, 11 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: they drove past Linda's trailer. 12 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: They mean because it was a little light. I figured 13 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 2: she was in the bed, because when we went by 14 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 2: the house the house was dark, but I thought the 15 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 2: car was in the front yard. 16 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: The next day, Saturday, Nicki called her mother over and 17 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: over but was unable to reach her. On Sunday, Nicki 18 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: and Daniel drove over to Linda's house and when they 19 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: got their cops were everywhere. 20 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 2: So when we pulled up and I asked what was wrong, 21 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 2: and when they tell me that my mom was dead, 22 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 2: I didn't understand why, because it just seemed make can 23 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 2: be sinned. She couldn't be dead because she wasn't dead 24 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 2: when I left. 25 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: Linda Holly had been viciously murdered, stabbed, and bludgeoned to death, 26 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: and Nicki and Daniel were soon the primary suspects. 27 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 2: My I mistaking danger and not being locked in for 28 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: thirty one years for crome. I have not committed. 29 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: From lov of for good. This is wrongful conviction with 30 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: Maggie Freeling today, Nicki Zinger. 31 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 2: To accept this free call breath one to refuse the 32 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: thank you for using securis. We may start the conversation now, Hi, Nikki, 33 00:01:59,320 --> 00:01:59,919 Speaker 2: are we ready? 34 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm here, It's Maggie. 35 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 2: Hey, we're a really neat talking kid home something us? 36 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 1: Nicki? Yeah, we do. But let's get this interview, okay, 37 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 1: and then we'll catch up because we don't want to 38 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 1: We don't want to miss this. Nicki Zinger has been 39 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: incarcerated at the McPherson Unit in Newport, Arkansas since nineteen 40 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: ninety two, and Nicki and I have been friends since 41 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: I first covered her case in twenty twenty for my 42 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: podcast on' Justin Unsolved. Nicki's story has haunted me since then, 43 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 1: and after listening to this episode, I think you will 44 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: hear why. All right, Niki, so let's start at the beginning. 45 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: Can you tell me about growing up. I know you 46 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,559 Speaker 1: were born in Chicago, but you moved to Arkansas. 47 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: My mom left my dad when I was just a baby. 48 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,679 Speaker 2: I mean, we went to live with my grandmother, who 49 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 2: lived in Magnolia at the time. 50 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: Nicki Zinger was born in nineteen sixty three. After they 51 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: moved to Magnolia, her mother, Linda Holly, raised Niki on 52 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: her own. 53 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: My dad was never a part of my life because 54 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 2: he was always drinking and drugging. He was mentally and 55 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 2: physically abusive to both. As I got older, he tried 56 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 2: to come see me a few but he was always drunk, 57 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 2: and my mother asked him, can you not come see 58 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 2: your only child sober? Because he was flushing me one 59 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 2: day and he pushed me out of the swings and 60 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: he just left me there. 61 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: Linda was a nurse and worked as a director with 62 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: the health department, but Nicki says she could have done 63 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: more with her life. 64 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 2: She was smart enough to be a doctor. She just didn't, 65 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 2: I think because of me, because of my problem I 66 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 2: was born with a club foot in a foot drawn 67 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 2: and I was born paralyzed and a throw from the marine. 68 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: And that meant that Nikki needed constant care. 69 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm in the hospital for like three four 70 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 2: months with my foot. I'm almost upside down because I 71 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,799 Speaker 2: gotta have pins in my pans and all my toes 72 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 2: and a cast, and I got an upside down so 73 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: I won't get a food cloth. So you really can't 74 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 2: do anything. I missed a lot of the child my 75 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: childhood being in the hospital. 76 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: Even when she was home in between operations, Nikki had 77 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: to wear a cast day and night. She rarely went 78 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: to school, so Linda homeschooled her. 79 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 2: I had no friends because I had to go every 80 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 2: o the year for so many years. If you're friends 81 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 2: with me one year and I'm out the next year, 82 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 2: you're not gonna keep you know, you're you're a child, 83 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 2: so you're not gonna keep trying to be my friend. 84 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 2: So I really never did get posted anybody because I 85 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 2: was never in school. 86 00:04:57,839 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: So tell me about growing up with your mom. You 87 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: guys really were each other's people. She was kind of 88 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: your best friend. She took care of you when you 89 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: were having all your health problems to tell me about that. 90 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 2: She was. She was my playmate, She was my everything. 91 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: I didn't know any other way. I mean, I couldn't work, 92 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: so you know, I stayed home and did the little things. 93 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying. We just got to do 94 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 2: and everything. If we went to the sonic or went 95 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: to the drive whatever drive through, we sitd in the 96 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 2: park a lot sometime and just have a big bas 97 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: and just watch everybody. If me and my mother traveled, 98 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 2: it was just me and my mother. She did it. 99 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 2: Lay in the bend and play video games with me, 100 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 2: or the TV or the movies, or just outside playing, 101 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying. And that was just happy 102 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: with me. 103 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: Nikki and her mom did everything together. They were happy 104 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: in each other's company. But still Linda wanted more for 105 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: her daughter, have. 106 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: A good career, have a good lie, not to worry 107 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 2: about things, you know what I'm saying. She didn't want 108 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 2: me to have to work hard like she did. She 109 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 2: didn't want me to have to worry about the things 110 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 2: that she worried about, or the man that she had 111 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 2: picked like my father. 112 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: As a teenager, Nikki was interested in boys. She was 113 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: curious about dating, but she wasn't quite ready to strike 114 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: out on her own, to. 115 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 2: Be honest with you, making my mother, making my mom 116 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 2: go and dragon so we could look at boys. She 117 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: would take me to Tonic. We would look just look, 118 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying, Just drive around and I 119 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: don't know. 120 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: Wait, so you didn't. I actually never do that. So 121 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: you and mom would go look for boys together. 122 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, just go look on my not. I didn't date 123 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: a lot because I always lived was so shy because 124 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: of the scars on my leg or because when leg 125 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 2: was bigger than the other. So my mom said, well, 126 00:06:59,120 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 2: let's just see this. 127 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 1: Then in her early twenties, NICKI did meet someone. When 128 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: they got married, she thought Larry would take care of her, 129 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: but that's not how it turned out. 130 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 2: I didn't know a lot of things about Larry until 131 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: after I got married. And he drank a lot. I 132 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 2: knew he drank some, I didn't know that he had 133 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 2: drank that bad. And he wouldn't want to leave and 134 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 2: come in late at two o'clock in the morning. I said, 135 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 2: we can't do that, this is my mom found. So 136 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 2: he when he did late, and he would try to 137 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 2: bang on the door, and my mother wouldn't let me in, 138 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 2: and he just got out of hand and he was 139 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 2: getting real verbal abusive and stuff like that, and so 140 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 2: I just just got a divorce. I don't ever regret it. 141 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: How long were you married for? 142 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 2: Not even six months? 143 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: With Larry out of the picture, Nicki and her mom 144 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: went back to their quiet life together. By now, they 145 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: had sold her grandparents' house and moved into a new place, 146 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: a brand new double wide trailer. 147 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 2: He had two bathrooms, two bedrooms, a living room, a 148 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 2: TV room, and then the master bedroom had his own bathroom, 149 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 2: home TV room, like a little apartment. 150 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: Linda continued with her job at the health center, and 151 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: Nikki pitched in by babysitting and working at a nursery 152 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: when she wasn't watching TV or listening to her favorite music. So, Nikki, 153 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: I know that you in your past maybe still are 154 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: a bit of a rocker. What kind of music did 155 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: you used to like? 156 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 2: Me? Yeah? You? Oh my god, I was like ACDCA 157 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 2: or Van Highland or Journey. That was back when I 158 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: was a little bit of a young person. 159 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: And then when Linda was forty five, something happened that 160 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: would upset the balance of their life together. Linda's struggle 161 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: with how to tell her daughter the devastating news. 162 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 2: And I happened to come home early, and I was like, well, 163 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 2: why is the PaperWorks sitting on my bed? So I 164 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 2: turned it on and it was her talking. That's when 165 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 2: she told me that she had cancer. I was devastated 166 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 2: because I had to know how to act and to 167 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: deal with the feelings because cancer makes you so through 168 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 2: so much. 169 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: Their lifetime roles were reversed and Nikki became her mother's caretaker. 170 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: What kinds of caretaking things did you have to do 171 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 1: for her? 172 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 2: I'd make the bed or cook. We went and got 173 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 2: her a wig. We learned how to eat better because 174 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:44,839 Speaker 2: she had to change the way she ate to get 175 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 2: the vitamin into that the chemotherapy and the radiation was 176 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 2: taken out of her. So we had bought a steamer, 177 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 2: so I learned to steam the vegetables that she liked. 178 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 2: So I'll just cooked. And she still worked because she 179 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 2: wanted to. Because she didn't she said she would drop 180 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 2: her cray see. So when she come in, I would 181 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 2: fix her bath, have her dinner ready and we would 182 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 2: just watch Tippie or whatever. She if she wanted to 183 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 2: go outside and walk some We would go out there 184 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 2: and walk down the road because we lived in the country. 185 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: Anyway, it was hard for NICKI to watch her mom 186 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: going through chemotherapy. 187 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 2: I don't know if the cure is worse than Kevin canthrope, 188 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 2: because you know, I'd watched my mom go through so 189 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: much final tab her hair coming out, losing one of 190 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 2: her breaths, which really upset her is very, very hard. 191 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 1: NICKI also had to process the fact that the worst 192 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: might happen, that she might lose her mother, her best friend, because. 193 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: By this time she had been through chemotherapy and radiation twice. 194 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 2: Sometimes she would feel better and sometimes you wouldn't. I 195 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 2: just couldn't think about this being the end of my 196 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 2: mom because I don't have any family. This is only 197 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 2: this has been my only mah long. I just didn't 198 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 2: thinking my life just staying after by Masel, you know. 199 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 1: And then when she was in her mid twenties, someone 200 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: new came into Nicky's life. She had met a few 201 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: people around the area and one day one of the 202 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: girls invited her to a party. 203 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 2: Held my mom a mad and she said, it was 204 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 2: like a heart you might meet somebody you I'm play 205 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 2: so I go and there was Daniel. 206 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: Nicky was twenty six and Daniel Rischer was four years younger. 207 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: She was attracted to him right away. 208 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 2: His hair was it looked like a legal haircut when 209 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 2: I first meet him. Dark brown is great. He had big, 210 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 2: puppy dow brown eyes. He was kind of shy like me. 211 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 2: He was just oh no, just different from everybody. 212 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 1: One day, not long after that, to Nicky's surprise, Daniel 213 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: showed up at their trailer. Linda was on her way 214 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: to work, but. 215 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 2: Who is this? And I introduced and everything she was 216 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 2: talking about she didn't want to leave me, and he said, well, 217 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 2: I bet if I just come up and keep recompany 218 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 2: during the day while you're at work. And that's what 219 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 2: he did, and that's where it started. 220 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: What stood out to you about him, It wasn't. 221 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 2: Like my ex husband, it was it was it was 222 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 2: sweet because it was like a slow build that makes 223 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 2: sense to you. It was this he helped with everything. 224 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 2: It was just it was just so natural. 225 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 1: Not only that Daniel was into rock music like Nikki. 226 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: Music was one of the things they bonded over. 227 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 2: You know. He played the guitar and he had his 228 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 2: own little personal band and he was good at it, 229 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 2: and I thought that was kind of neat to have 230 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 2: my boyfriend that played the band. You know what I'm saying. 231 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 2: It's kind of not necessarily a prestige or whatever you 232 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 2: want to say, but it was kind of neat. 233 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 1: Before long, Nicky and Daniel were inseparable. They went back 234 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: and forth between their homes, staying some nights at Linda's 235 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 1: place and others with Daniel's parents, Albert and Rachel. At first, 236 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: Nicky says, Rachel wasn't sure how she felt about her 237 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: son's new girlfriend. 238 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 2: When she got to know me, things changed because, you know, 239 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 2: she didn't think I was trying to take a betty 240 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 2: to her soon or anything else. She was. I was 241 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 2: really nice because I helped with the dishes, and I 242 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 2: helped cook when we all lay down there, I helped 243 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 2: everything that she did. 244 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: Did your mom like him? 245 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 2: I think so. Harry and Daniel really got along. She 246 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 2: had asked that, you know what I thought about maybe 247 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 2: was going on vacation one time, all of us together. 248 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,839 Speaker 1: Oh where would you have gone? 249 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 2: Well, my mom, she was a very history buff and 250 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: Glen went to Mississippi together and seeing no battlefields, and 251 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 2: she wanted to go to Dalamo. They see all the 252 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 2: stuff in Texas. As things progressed with me and him, 253 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 2: we talked about maybe getting married one day, maybe starting 254 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:09,319 Speaker 2: a family. 255 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: One Friday morning, about a year and a half into 256 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: their relationship, Daniel needed to take his guitar AMP to 257 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: a repair shop in Shreveport. It was about an hour 258 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: and a half away, and Niki decided to go along 259 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: for the ride and make a day of it. On 260 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: their way out, they stopped by Linda's to pick up 261 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: a few magazines for the drive, and Linda was already 262 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: at work. 263 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 2: I left her a note on the bar the Taylor 264 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 2: and we were going to Strappart. It was still daytime 265 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 2: when we got there, so we went to the amp 266 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: place and the city was closed for lunch, so we 267 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 2: went to the mall and he decided he was hungry, 268 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 2: so we went night a sandwich place and he bought 269 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 2: me some perfume a couple of balls apart few. 270 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: They walked around the mall for a bit, then went 271 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: back to the shop to drop off Daniel's AMP. As 272 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: it was starting to get dark, they headed back to Magnolia, 273 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: arriving in the late evening. 274 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 2: I don't know what time. It was exactly. We stopped 275 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 2: by Easy Mark, we had dinner at Sonic, and we 276 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 2: went home. 277 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: On the way, they drove past Linda's house. 278 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 2: I didn't think of myself because it was a little late. 279 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 2: I figured she was in the bed. I mean because 280 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 2: when we went by the house, the house was dark, 281 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 2: but I thought the car was in the front yard. 282 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: The next day, Saturday, Nikki called her mom and left 283 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: multiple messages. 284 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 2: But that's when she usually goes to the store. This 285 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 2: her day. She goes to the grocery store, to the 286 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 2: farmer's market, Kmart. Is just her day to do all that. 287 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 2: And now I didn't think of anything. 288 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: So John, can you introduce yourself for listeners. 289 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 3: Sure, my name is John Harden. I'm a private investigator 290 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 3: and four ten years as i rend the nonprofit Proclaimed Justice. 291 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: Can you walk us through what happens back on March eighth, 292 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one. What do we know that happened? Basically, 293 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: what we know. 294 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 3: Happened is on Friday March eighth, at four thirty five 295 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 3: o'clock something like that, Linda Holly was seen at her 296 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 3: mailbox by her neighbor Kara Lee Davis. She was in 297 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 3: her scrubs. She was checking her mail. They had a 298 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 3: brief conversation about maybe we'll go to the store together tomorrow, 299 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 3: do a little shopping tomorrow. And that's the last sighting 300 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 3: that we know for sure of Linda Holly alive. That's 301 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 3: on Friday afternoon. You fast forward to Sunday and Caro 302 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 3: Lee Davis, the neighbor, was concerned because she had left 303 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 3: a couple of messages for Linda that were not returned, 304 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 3: but her car was still there, so she Kara becomes concerned. 305 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 3: She calls her friend Jan Terrell, who is also Linda 306 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 3: Holly's friend, and they call a police officer who they knew, 307 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 3: named Buddy Height. The three of them go over. Buddy 308 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 3: enters enough to see that there's a bad scene going 309 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 3: on there, and he calls the police officers that who 310 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 3: were on duty. 311 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: So once the police arrive on the scene, what was 312 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: the investigation? 313 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 3: Like the first couple of officers, they don't know what 314 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 3: they're walking into. So they go through the back utility 315 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 3: room door of the trailer and they're walking through broken 316 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 3: glass or walking through blood, and you can't blame them. 317 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 3: They've got their weapons drawn. They don't know if somebody's 318 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 3: still in that trailer or not. They go in, they 319 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 3: find Linda dead. It was multiple stab wounds twelve stab wounds, 320 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 3: as well as blunt force trauma, some evidence of some 321 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 3: strangulation as well. 322 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 1: John says that the investigation was a mess from the beginning. 323 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 3: That crime scene was not secured at all. There were 324 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 3: very quickly, multiple people, multiple officers, kind of all over 325 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 3: the place there. Going in and out of the trailer 326 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 3: was sort of the first thing that went wrong with 327 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 3: this investigation. 328 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: So you guys on Sunday are calling her. She's not answering. 329 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: So at what point do you go over to the house. 330 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 2: I guess about lunch, maybe maybe a little after lunch. 331 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:16,719 Speaker 2: I come around the corner and there was a whole 332 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 2: bunch of cars in the yard and told them we 333 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 2: pulled up. Everybody was coming out from behind my house, 334 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 2: and I asked what was wrong, And when they told 335 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 2: me that that my mom was dead, I just remember 336 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 2: thinking that they're lying. So I run around behind the 337 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 2: house and they caught me and told me that I 338 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 2: told me that I couldn't. I couldn't go around there. 339 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 2: And by this time I was crying and I didn't 340 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 2: understand why because it just seemed making any sense that 341 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:49,959 Speaker 2: you're telling me that my mom was dead and she 342 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 2: couldn't be dead because she wasn't dead when I left. 343 00:18:54,080 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 2: I just know. That's when I just light on the 344 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 2: grass and I can do nothing because it was just 345 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 2: my whole life was gone. I have no life now 346 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 2: that didn't have anything no more. Who would do something 347 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 2: like this? I mean, I just didn't know anybody that 348 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 2: didn't like my mom my d You don't say I 349 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 2: still don't know. I know I didn't. Why would I 350 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: tighten my life away from me? 351 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. 352 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: You can listen to this and all the LoVa for 353 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 1: Good podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing 354 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: to LoVa for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Within days 355 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: of finding out her mother had been murdered, Nicky was 356 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: told that she had to leave their home. 357 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 2: Nobody was paying for it anymore. We had like ten 358 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 2: fifteen days to get everything out of the house, so 359 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 2: me and Daniel and my friend Davy went up there 360 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 2: and we would try to plan it up some during 361 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 2: the days and keep the things out that I wanted 362 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,479 Speaker 2: to keep. We would do to the day because I couldn't. 363 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 2: I couldn't do in there at night time. It stretched 364 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 2: me out too bad and I had not marriage from it. 365 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 3: The day after Linda was found murdered, Daniel and Nicki 366 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 3: were allowed to go into the home unsupervised. They're cleaning 367 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 3: all this stuff up from the murder before the crime 368 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 3: scene folks got there, before the State crime lab arrived, 369 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 3: three days before the State crime labl. 370 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: Nicky says that at one point officers asked her if 371 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: there was anything missing from the house, mcdona, what was missing? 372 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 2: Her gun was missing, hammer was missing, money was missing, 373 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 2: jewelry was missing, and they did not one thing about 374 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 2: any of that. 375 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: As it turns out, the detectives were concerned about something 376 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: else entirely. 377 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 3: They weren't looking for valuables that were missing or anything 378 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 3: like that. Officers testified at trial that immediately once they 379 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 3: found Linda Holly murdered in her home, they immediately started 380 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 3: looking for insurance and other important. 381 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: Papers Linda's two life insurance policies, which added up to 382 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 1: ninety thousand dollars. 383 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 3: And they all four said that there were all these 384 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 3: papers on the floor and scattered about and Nicky was 385 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 3: gathering papers and putting them in this box. The day 386 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 3: after Linda was murdered, they take them to daniel house. 387 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: At this point, the investigation had already begun to turn 388 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: towards Nikki and Daniel. 389 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 3: I guess the old adage that you always looked at 390 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,479 Speaker 3: those you know, they look at those closest to you 391 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 3: rings true to some degree here, and in that way, 392 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 3: you sort of can't blame me either. 393 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: So when did they start questioning you about what happens? 394 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: Tell me what you remember about when you started realizing, like, 395 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: oh shit, I think they might think I did this. 396 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 2: They interviewed me and Daniel maybe I don't remember. Right 397 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 2: after they let us go in the trailer the good things, 398 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 2: and then I think that day or that next day 399 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 2: they called SUP there they read Daniel's his rights, so 400 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 2: they never read mine. Robert Boram talked to Daniel, and 401 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,360 Speaker 2: GM talked to me. He told me that they had 402 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 2: a whole bunch of suspects, and then I'd ask him 403 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 2: who he wouldn't tell me, And he asked where we'd been, 404 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 2: and I told him where we'd been, and he said, 405 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 2: did I have any receipts? And I showed him. He 406 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 2: took my receipt from where he bought that perfume, and 407 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 2: I've never seen it since. They pulled hair out of 408 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 2: my head ten fifteen, maybe twenty friends of my hair, 409 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,479 Speaker 2: and I asked why are they doing that, and they 410 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 2: said they had to. I don't know why. It's this 411 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 2: very day. Did it match anything? Did not match anything? 412 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 2: They cut her fingernails off because they said they said 413 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 2: it was something under her finger nails. Did that match something? 414 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 2: What was it? I tried to find out, and no 415 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 2: one's told me. 416 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: On March fourteenth, officers got a warrant to search Daniel's 417 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,239 Speaker 1: parents home for evidence. 418 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 3: And they find this insurance box that, in my opinion, 419 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 3: is so when they came to form this theory that 420 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 3: it was done for insurance. And I honestly believe that 421 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 3: there's a strong probability that these officers conspired to testify 422 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 3: that they were immediately looking for insurance papers. So that's 423 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 3: why the insurance papers became so significant at trial. 424 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: In addition to the box with the insurance papers, they 425 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 1: seized a hunting jacket and some boots belonging to Daniel. 426 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: The investigators also zeroed in on Daniel's rock and roll lifestyle. 427 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 3: This is nineteen ninety one, this is at the height 428 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 3: of Satanic Panic era. It became a lot of this 429 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 3: stuff of Daniel was this weird, aggressive guy that listened 430 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 3: to all this heavy metal music, played heavy metal music, 431 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 3: that kind of thing. So I think that those things 432 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 3: are what sort of got the police's focus on them 433 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 3: to start with. 434 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: They also scrutinized things like Nikki's rock posters and an 435 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: Iron Maiden T shirt of Daniel's, which to them seemed 436 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: to suspect. 437 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 3: And in fact, some of that stuff was ses as evidence. 438 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 3: It wasn't used a trial, but shows you where their 439 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 3: minds were at as they were investigating. So there was 440 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 3: strong indication and even some comments made about this could 441 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 3: be something to do with the occult. Ultimately, what the 442 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 3: state decided on was that Daniel and Nicky murdered her 443 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 3: mother for a ninety thousand dollars life insurance payout. 444 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 1: About a month later, on April eighteenth, nineteen ninety one, 445 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: Nicky and Daniel were both arrested and charged with first 446 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: degree murder. What were you thinking when that happened. 447 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 2: I don't remember. I don't think I was thinking because 448 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 2: who does that? Who thinks that they would kill their mom? 449 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 2: Who really thinks that they would kill their mom? I 450 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 2: think that everybody was just putting out every all kinds 451 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 2: of rumors, and I think a lot of them come 452 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 2: from the sheriffs office. I do. 453 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: So when they arrest you, when they actually put handcuffs 454 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: on you, and you wind up in the jail and 455 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 1: you're waiting for trial. The only person you have now 456 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: at this point is Daniel, and were you even able 457 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: to talk to him? 458 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 2: They were letting me talk to Daniel, but they were 459 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 2: listening to everything that we said, just in case I 460 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 2: said something or he said something, or or they would 461 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 2: take him outside and they wouldn't take me. They did 462 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 2: a lot of horrible things to me in County jail, 463 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 2: trying to make me say that I did. And I 464 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 2: keep telling them, then, if I'm not going to say 465 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,360 Speaker 2: that I did now, why would I say I'm doing 466 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 2: it now? Because I haven't done anything wrong. I got 467 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 2: sick with walking pneumonia. They tell me it isn't take 468 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 2: me to the hospital, and then they wouldn't take me, 469 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 2: or they laugh at me, or they'd give me water 470 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 2: with crashing, and I got the poisoned him because the 471 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 2: food was rotten that they give me. They wouldn't take 472 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 2: me outside. They would put people in there and tell 473 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 2: me that I was going to die. They would make 474 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 2: fine noises like they was going to find me in 475 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,120 Speaker 2: the letture chair that I couldn't sleep, couldn't eat. 476 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: Sitting in jail awaiting trial, Nikki had nothing but time 477 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: to think about her mother's life and what happened to her. 478 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 2: First of all, I loved my mom very dearly, even 479 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 2: as broken as she was. I would have never traded 480 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 2: for nothing in the world when you don't have anything 481 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 2: and you were raised up like me with the day 482 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 2: that was so mean and hateful, and he's already destroying 483 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 2: one life, my mom, and she was trying to put 484 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 2: it all back together. And you have a child that 485 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 2: was born with such a terrible disability. You know, she 486 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 2: had to swallow her life because of mine, because she 487 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 2: couldn't be what she ended up being in six veins 488 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 2: all right, LEAs tried to where I could walk and 489 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 2: have a decent life, and it's just very hard. 490 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: In January of nineteen ninety two, Daniel and Nikki went 491 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: to trial. They were tried together, but with separate attorneys. 492 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: The trial lasted just three days. The most damaging testimony 493 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: for the prosecution came from Arkansas state criminologist Don Smith. 494 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: He had done lumino testing the camouflage, hunting jacket and 495 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: boots that have been taken from Daniel's home. 496 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 3: I'm sure your listeners know, but you know, luminol is 497 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 3: a chemical that is an agent that reacts with bloods, 498 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 3: but it reacts with a bunch of other materials too. 499 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 3: So if there's blood on something, you can spray luminol 500 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 3: on it, put a black light over it, and it 501 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 3: will essentially glow. Right. It doesn't tell you even if 502 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 3: it's blood number one, number two, it doesn't tell you 503 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 3: what species of animal the blood comes from, much less 504 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 3: whose blood it is if it's human's blood. So the 505 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 3: prosecutor really led him into this about the strong implication 506 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 3: without outright saying during his testimony that the blood that 507 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 3: reacted to luminol on Daniel's shoe and jacket was Linda 508 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 3: Hally's blood. That was the clear implication given to the jury. 509 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: In fact, Daniel has always maintained that the blood on 510 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: his hunting jacket came from a deer, but against the 511 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: expert criminologist testimony, all but saying the blood was Linda's. 512 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: It added up to a powerful argument for conviction. 513 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 3: In fact, I've interviewed multiple jurors since then, and that's 514 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 3: the first thing any of them ever brought up, was 515 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 3: the blood on the jacket. 516 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: Because besides that, I mean, what other evidence was there 517 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: against them? It was the life insurance, the. 518 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 3: Life insurance and the blood. I mean, that was it. 519 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 3: That was truly it. 520 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: The defense didn't seem to have much to present either, 521 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: although they did try to introduce the possibility of alternate suspects. 522 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 3: There was a man named Lewis Burris. He with regularity 523 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 3: would see people at Linda's home that he thought were 524 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 3: out of place. Let me put it that way. One 525 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 3: of them was the same guy that he would see 526 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 3: there very often, and he saw him there that morning, 527 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 3: saw him outside Linda's place on that Friday morning. 528 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: According to Nikki, Linda was dating a police officer at 529 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: the time and he sometimes stayed overnight. Both Lewis Burris 530 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: and Linda's neighbor Caro Leie Davis testified that they'd seen 531 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: a police car parked in front of her house on 532 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: a regular basis he would come at. 533 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 2: Light at night, because should I always say, if the 534 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 2: car's in the front yard, please yourself stop and come back. 535 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 2: And there'd be a lot of times his car would 536 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 2: be in the yard at that time. 537 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 3: Another set of people that Lewis Burris saw with regularity, 538 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 3: there were, as he described them, two black guys, the 539 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 3: same black guys that were there almost every Saturday morning, 540 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 3: is what he said. And I only really bring that 541 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 3: up because there was a similar crime that happened in 542 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 3: a town just thirty miles away, just a few days 543 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 3: before Linda Holly's murder, that was very similar and the 544 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,719 Speaker 3: strongest suspects in that case were some African American males. 545 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: That was the case of a woman named Bernice Rankin. 546 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 3: She was found murdered in her home, stabbed, bludgeoned, so 547 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 3: very similar crime, similar enough to the point where a 548 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 3: detective named Jimmy Morgan felt strongly that these two crimes 549 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 3: were similar enough that he wanted real work done in 550 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 3: comparing notes, comparing potential suspects, that kind of thing. 551 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: In fact, Jimmy Morgan came to the trial he was 552 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: prepared to testify about the similarity between those two murders, 553 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: but the prosecution objected. 554 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 3: The jury left the room, and you know, there was 555 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 3: an argument back and forth. Ultimately the judge decided that 556 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 3: he should not be allowed to testify in front of 557 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 3: the jury. The other thing that the defense did bring up, 558 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 3: Nicky was the primary beneficiary of that ninety thousand dollars 559 00:32:55,280 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 3: life insurance upon her mother's death. The secondary benefit, Sherry, 560 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 3: was a lady named Jan Terrell who was Linda's friend. 561 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: And Jen was one of the first people to go 562 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: to the house on that Sunday morning along with Carol Lee, 563 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: and later after Nicki was convicted, the ninety thousand dollars 564 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: went to Jen Terrell. 565 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 3: We don't know what she did with that money, we 566 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 3: don't know anything like that, but we do know she 567 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 3: was the beneficiary. 568 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,239 Speaker 1: So, in addition to Nicky and Daniel, John believes there 569 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: were several people in Linda's life that police could have 570 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: looked into, but they didn't. 571 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 3: She's a nurse for the county. There's strong rumor that 572 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 3: she would take prescription pads that were pre signed by 573 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 3: doctors and fill prescriptions for people for money. That's not 574 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 3: anything that we've ever been able to prove definitively, but 575 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 3: there is very strong indication that that's the case. So 576 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 3: you know that puts year around some shady people sometimes, 577 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 3: especially in Southwest Arkansas in nineteen ninety one. 578 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, do you have any thoughts on who might 579 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 1: have killed your mom? 580 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 2: My mom didn't always know the best people in her life, 581 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,879 Speaker 2: or didn't always sometimes pick the best people in her 582 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 2: life like me. I guess that's where I got it 583 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,720 Speaker 2: from a lot. I didn't always pick the best people 584 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 2: in the world either. Before Daniel, you know what I'm saying. 585 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 2: Sometimes there with people that would drive real, real slow 586 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 2: by the house at not time, or they would call 587 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 2: the house when's while we had to have her phone 588 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 2: number changed. 589 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 1: Who do you think that was? I mean, what kind 590 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: of people did your mom know? Was she involved in anything? 591 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 2: Well, she worked for the sheriff department when she wasn't 592 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 2: working for the health department. After she passed away, I've 593 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 2: had a few people tell me that, I guess just 594 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 2: the people that you work with, You know what I'm saying, 595 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 2: That she didn't necessarily hang with all the best people 596 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 2: in the world. But I've never heard anybody's. 597 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: Name on January thirteenth, nineteen ninety one, Nicky Singer and 598 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: Daniel Richard were both convicted of first degree murder and 599 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,320 Speaker 1: sentenced to life in prison. 600 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 2: When the realization comes in and I had a lot 601 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 2: of sentence, it was just I just quit. I stayed 602 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,720 Speaker 2: into bed. I didn't know eat, I didn't shower because 603 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,399 Speaker 2: I didn't know how I was going to do this. 604 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,359 Speaker 2: The first five years of my prison stay was really 605 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 2: bad because I had to learn how to survive. I 606 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:48,280 Speaker 2: learned that you couldn't be who you are. You don't 607 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 2: be nice to everybody. You can't give your shoulder or 608 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 2: try to say, you know, can I be here? You know, 609 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 2: do you need somebody that's ought to because I've learned 610 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 2: that they would sab people in the bag. I didn't 611 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 2: think I would ever survive as long as I have 612 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 2: because as the horrible things enough saying the people get 613 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 2: beat up or stabbed or pay and its breaked my 614 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 2: heart because I wasn't raced up that way. 615 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,720 Speaker 1: But Nicki turned out to be stronger than she ever knew. 616 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,800 Speaker 1: She did survive and even earned her ged while in prison, 617 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: and eventually she found herself becoming a mentor, helping others 618 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,719 Speaker 1: to adjust the way she wished someone could have helped her. 619 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,800 Speaker 2: When I first came to prison, I didn't have anybody 620 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 2: that was there for me, nobody to tell me that 621 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 2: it was okay, the pad on the bag, or I'm 622 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 2: very proud of you that you've survived another day. I 623 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,319 Speaker 2: try to be there and listen to him. I'll heel 624 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 2: many and I do it for the simple mind and 625 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,439 Speaker 2: if we all need peace of mind, because there's none 626 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 2: in here. And when we get something, we have to 627 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 2: hold it very dear. 628 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: Through the years, Nicky has tried to keep up on 629 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 1: how Daniel's doing. 630 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,800 Speaker 2: I would ask Rachel with the okay because I wasn't okay, 631 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 2: you know. I used to hear from Rachel all the 632 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:29,240 Speaker 2: time about Daniel. 633 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety three, Nicky and Daniel filed an appeal 634 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,359 Speaker 1: with the Arkansas Supreme Court, requesting a new trial, but 635 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: the court upheld the conviction. Daniel and his family continued 636 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: to pursue every avenue they could to prove their innocence, 637 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 1: which is how John Harden learned about Nicky's case in 638 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. 639 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,279 Speaker 3: So when we first launched Proclaimed Justice, I got a 640 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:01,280 Speaker 3: message from the cousin of Daniel Rischer, and she asked 641 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 3: us to look into it, and so I started looking 642 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 3: into it, really on Daniel's behalf, and that's what got 643 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:09,800 Speaker 3: me into the case to start with. But of course 644 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,280 Speaker 3: you can't investigate Daniel's case without investigating Nicky's. 645 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,320 Speaker 1: Daniel had already gotten the Innocence Project of New York involved, 646 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: and they had agreed to have DNA testing done on 647 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: the blood found on his jacket. The test results showed 648 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,800 Speaker 1: that it was not definitively human blood. 649 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,319 Speaker 3: And it's what Daniel's saying all along, it's my dearer 650 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 3: hunting jacket is dear blood. 651 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: And there's something else that John keeps thinking about the 652 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:39,240 Speaker 1: lack of a motive when she was killed. Remember, Linda 653 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: was still battling cancer. 654 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,279 Speaker 3: She had gone into remission and then the cancer had 655 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 3: come back. There was strong belief in indication that this 656 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 3: could very well be terminal cancer this time around. And 657 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 3: so if we're talking about the motive to murder her 658 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 3: mother to get ninety thousand dollars of life insurance, and 659 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 3: this sounds crasp, but if you want your mother dad 660 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 3: to collect ninety thousand dollars and she's got almost certainly 661 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 3: terminal cancer. Why not just wait it out and not 662 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 3: take a risk of being convicted and sent away for life. 663 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 3: So it's just illogical on its face. 664 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: In twenty sixteen, based on the new DNA findings, Daniel 665 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: and Niki were granted a parole hearing. 666 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:30,439 Speaker 3: The parole boarder unanimously recommended them for parole, which does 667 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 3: not happen very often at all. 668 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: No, and then they get denied by the governor. 669 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 3: That's right, Governor Asa Hutcheson denied parole. 670 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 2: Yeah. 671 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,320 Speaker 1: Proclaimed Justice was started by John Harden and Jason Baldwin, 672 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 1: one of the infamous West Memphis Three. John was a 673 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: pivotal member in helping to exonerate the three wrongfully convicted 674 00:39:55,120 --> 00:40:00,840 Speaker 1: men after eighteen years in prison. After Jason's release twenty eleven, 675 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: the two decided to start an innocence organization together. They 676 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: have worked on many wrongful conviction cases. One of the 677 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: most well known what's their work exonerating Daniel Viegis. But 678 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: after years of running a nonprofit, the pace was taking 679 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 1: its toll on John. In twenty twenty three, he made 680 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 1: the difficult decision to disband Proclaim Justice. 681 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 3: It was just time. I mean, it's fucking hard starting 682 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,240 Speaker 3: an organization and keeping it, you know, a several hundred 683 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,240 Speaker 3: thousand dollars budget together every year, and I'm still active 684 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,359 Speaker 3: in the investigations in our current cases. I'll be able 685 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 3: to keep some of my fundraising network in place to 686 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 3: do this kind of good work. 687 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,840 Speaker 1: And he has no intention on giving up on Nicki's case. 688 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 3: I promised Nikki. When I called her and explained what 689 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 3: was going on with me and proclaimed justice, she was 690 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,760 Speaker 3: very supportive of me on a personal level, just because 691 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,399 Speaker 3: she's sweet like that. She's kind and caring and compassionate, 692 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 3: and and she wants to make sure I'm okay, which 693 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 3: is always strange to hear from somebody who's dealing with 694 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 3: what she's dealing with on the inside. 695 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: You know, you and I talk about that, John, Like, 696 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 1: anytime Nikki calls, it's like, are you okay? Is her 697 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 1: first question? 698 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,399 Speaker 3: Absolutely, how are you doing? And so I know to 699 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 3: some degree she's mostly it's because she truly cares about me. 700 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 3: To some degree, it probably helps her just be thinking 701 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 3: about somebody else's life. So she's absolutely, one hundred percent 702 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 3: completely innocent of this crime. And we just can't rest 703 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 3: until we've got her out where we're at is we 704 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,320 Speaker 3: have to have a status hearing. We have this order 705 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 3: for all these items to be tested DNA tested. We 706 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 3: can't really proceed in the courts until we have a 707 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 3: decision on whether or not we can forego testing on 708 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 3: all those other ones ones. So now we're left with 709 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,600 Speaker 3: waiting on a judge's order telling us what we've got 710 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 3: to do. 711 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,799 Speaker 1: Nikki has been behind bars since she was twenty eight. 712 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 1: She's now sixty. Her health has never been great, but 713 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: she admits that as she gets older, things are getting 714 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: even harder. 715 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 2: I have diabetes, real bands, I have high blood pressure, 716 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 2: my headache to words crum sistress. I can't remember when 717 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,160 Speaker 2: the last time I feel good. Yeah, and it gets 718 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,560 Speaker 2: really pressing this time, and I try not to cry 719 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,759 Speaker 2: because I don't want anybody to boohoo or a baby thing. 720 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 1: What do you want for your future when you get out? 721 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:45,960 Speaker 1: What do you think about? 722 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,359 Speaker 2: I don't want a perfect life, because there's no such 723 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,759 Speaker 2: thing as perfect. I just want to learn to be 724 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 2: okay with me all over again, learn to be okay 725 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 2: with the world, because I don't even know what the 726 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 2: world looks like. I don't the world is so big now, 727 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 2: I don't know maybe travel may be, tell my story, 728 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 2: write a book. I just want people to get a 729 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,399 Speaker 2: chance to know who I am, to like who I am. 730 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,200 Speaker 2: I want know people to know that I'm capable of 731 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 2: doing things more than that I've ever thought about. I 732 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 2: don't even know what's out there to do exactly, but 733 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 2: I just want people to know that I want to 734 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:25,879 Speaker 2: have that chance to do it. 735 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 1: I got to know Nikki really well while covering her 736 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 1: case for Unjustin and Unsolved, and after learning about her 737 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 1: case in her life and speaking with her at length, 738 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 1: I felt compelled to be a friend to Nikki rather 739 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:46,360 Speaker 1: than just a journalist using her as a source. What 740 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 1: gives you hope? Nikki? You Maggie, Why did I know 741 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: you were going to say that You've heard me get. 742 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 2: This bad before, and you get over to me and 743 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,239 Speaker 2: tell me that you have obvious people out here just 744 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,839 Speaker 2: because you don't say I'm visitly or not there. Even 745 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,600 Speaker 2: if people in here, though, will tell me Dad it's okay. Nikki, 746 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,399 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say I'm a bad person. I would say 747 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 2: I've learned to be better person than I was before. 748 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:26,240 Speaker 2: My heart always hours. Yeah. 749 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,840 Speaker 1: Since Proclaim justice has closed its doors, Nicki is in 750 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,160 Speaker 1: need of a new team to pick up where they 751 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: left off. Please reach out if you can help or 752 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: can connect her with someone who can. It's been over 753 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:42,160 Speaker 1: thirty years now and it is time to get her out. 754 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 1: In the meantime, Nicki would love to have your support. 755 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,799 Speaker 1: A donation to help with prison expenses, or even just 756 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,359 Speaker 1: a letter or card to let her know you've heard 757 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:55,799 Speaker 1: her story would mean the world to her. There is 758 00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 1: also a fundraiser for Nicki. Since she doesn't have family 759 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: or friends put money on her commissary, it's up to us, 760 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,360 Speaker 1: so we will put that link and how to write 761 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:22,680 Speaker 1: her in the episode description. Thank you for listening to 762 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:26,360 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freelink. Please support your local innocence 763 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,280 Speaker 1: organizations and go to the links in the episode description 764 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,759 Speaker 1: to see how you can help. I'd like to thank 765 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 1: our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler, and Kevin Wortis, 766 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 1: as well as senior producer Annie Chelsea, producer Kathleen Fink, 767 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:44,719 Speaker 1: story editor Hannah Beal, and researcher Shelby Sorels. Mixing and 768 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,160 Speaker 1: sound design are by Jackie Pauley, with additional production by 769 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,720 Speaker 1: Jeff Cleiburn and Connor Hall. The music in this production 770 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,799 Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be 771 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,960 Speaker 1: sure to follow us on all social media platforms at 772 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,320 Speaker 1: Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also 773 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,200 Speaker 1: follow me on all platforms at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction 774 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,919 Speaker 1: with Maggie Freeling is a production of Lava for Good 775 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:17,279 Speaker 1: Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one