1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly john Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: today's best minds. And Elon Musk, who is not a secretary, 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 1: will attend the first Trump cabinet meeting with all the secretaries. 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: We have such a great chow for you. Today, The 6 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: Atlantic's George Conway talks about illegality in the Trump administration 7 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: and how it will continue to dog them. Then we 8 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: will talk to Pro Publica's Lizzie Presser about the horrifying 9 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: rate of sepsis in women in Texas in the years 10 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: since Texas enacted its abortion ban. 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 2: But first the news. 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 3: So last night, Mollie, the Republicans in Congress first didn't 13 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 3: do so hot at passing their budget, but then got 14 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 3: it through. It looks very bad. 15 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: I mean, they're so excited that they got something past. 16 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: And look, let's give them a minute here. If Mike 17 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: Johnson is very bad at math and his vote counting, 18 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: he's not known as a whipper versus Nancy Pelosi, so 19 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: it is kind of incredible that he got anything done. 20 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: So perhaps that's something. 21 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: Of course, he did make almost every Republican, with the 22 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: exception of Thomas Massey. Welcome to the resistance, Thomas Massey, 23 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: and I'm kidding that's ironic. Vote for eight hundred and 24 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: eighty billion dollars in Medicaid cuts and two hundred and 25 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: thirty billion dollars in cuts two food stamps. So, yes, 26 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: they did make a lot of cuts. That means that 27 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: people like everyone's favorite Republican Mike Lawler, who thinks he's 28 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: going to be governor of New York, he. 29 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 2: Just had to vote for an eight. 30 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: Hundred and eighty billion dollar cut to Medicaid. That means hospitals, 31 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: nursing homes, poor women who they don't even need to 32 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: be poor, right, women who don't have the insurance, can't 33 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: afford insurance, or can't afford insurance on the exchanges. 34 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 2: These women, why should they. 35 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: Have anything less than what Trump has wanted for them. 36 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: So this is House Republicans, and they are trying to 37 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: cut a little bit from the budget so that they 38 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: can keep these tax cuts in place. 39 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 2: Representative Drypole tweeted. 40 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,399 Speaker 1: Last night after this past ninety nine percent of House 41 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: Republicans voted to gut Medicaid so they can lower taxes 42 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: for the richest one percent. Yes, I am shocked to 43 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: know that an administration almost entirely stocked with billionaires and 44 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: trillionaire you know, and millionaires that that crew voted to 45 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: keep their own taxes down. And you know who's going 46 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: to suffer MAGA voters. 47 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 3: Yikes. Yeah. I particularly appreciate how Thomas Massey came out 48 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 3: of the first vote and dog did talked about how 49 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 3: much it's adding to the debt, and then look at 50 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:57,119 Speaker 3: that they got it done. 51 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: Ah. 52 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 2: Yes, I am very imp and not very surprised. 53 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 3: So now in every one of these we turned to 54 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 3: the bizarre, which was Trump posting an unhinged AI video 55 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 3: of his vision for Trump Gaza, which included bearded ladies, 56 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 3: which I did not think that the Republican constituency was 57 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 3: a big fan of. 58 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's talk this through for a minute. 59 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: He is saying that he's going to make Gaza a 60 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: trumpy development. 61 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 2: There are many reasons why this is bad. 62 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: I don't think we should even I mean, like, obviously 63 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: there's no world in which this is actually going to 64 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: be happening. But I think there's a real game of 65 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: chicken here that Donald Trump is engaging in. I think 66 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: it's worth remembering for a minute that there were a 67 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: lot of Democratic voters who did not come out, including 68 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: like Muslim voters in Dearborn who voted for Trump with 69 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: the thinking that Trump would somehow be better on Gaza 70 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: than Democrats, And well, the Democrats made a lot of 71 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: mistakes when it comes to Middle East. I think it's 72 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: hard to imagine anything a Democrat cooked up being as 73 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: batshit as this. You know, these people live there, and 74 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is sort of pitching this idea of just 75 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 1: completely kicking them out. 76 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, nice stuff. So Maai, it's beginning to look a 77 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 3: lot like recession. According to some economists who are starting 78 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 3: to seriously worry about Trump's actions on the economy. 79 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: A really good example of this is just like the 80 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: NIH cuts right Alabama, red state filled with trumpers, the 81 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: University of Alabama at Birmingham, biggest employer, the University of 82 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: Alabama system in the state. They're cutting NIH funding. Those 83 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: NIH funds will be cut. Where we'll see this is 84 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: that there'll be less money flowing into red states like Alabama. 85 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: Then you cut Medicaid, so you're going to cut more 86 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 1: funding that goes into these red states. Then you cut 87 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: food stamps and snaps, you cut like these people have 88 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: less money to spend on food, Like, I don't think that. 89 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: One of the things that I'm not sure Elon understands 90 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: about how the economy works is that if people have 91 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: less money to spend, they spend less money. And if 92 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: they spend less money, less money goes through the economy. 93 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: And if less money goes through the economy, the economy 94 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: starts to get smaller. And when the economy starts to 95 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: get smaller, the GDP goes down. And when the GDP 96 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: goes down, you end up in a recession. Right. This 97 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: is a question of a growing economy versus a stalling economy. 98 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: And when you start cutting government spending, that's where you go. 99 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: And look, you know a lot of people are scared 100 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: of Trump, so they don't want to say the truth. 101 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: One of the interesting things is there's a hedge fund 102 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: manager called Steve Cohen, and he's very, very rich. Probably 103 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: I would have a hard time imagining he's a Democrat, 104 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: but maybe who knows owns The METS warns that TARA, 105 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: slowing immigration, and cost cutting could lead to a market 106 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: correction and or solar economic growth because cutting tears make 107 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: things more expensive, slowing immigration makes labor more expensive, so 108 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: goods are more expensive, labor's more expensive, and the government 109 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: is spending less money, all of which mean that the 110 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: economy will shrink. He suggests that while tariffs and government 111 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: inefficiencies post risks, their ultimate impact depends on execution. And 112 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: you know, the guy with the chainsaw, he may not 113 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: be so incredibly careful when trimming the federal budget. 114 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 3: Yes, you know how chainsaws are known for their calculated 115 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 3: cutting and really precise, So as I would imagine what happened, 116 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 3: I could have predicted this headline after last week Friend 117 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 3: of the Show John Allen is reporting that House Republicans 118 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 3: have hit the brakes on town halls after blowback of 119 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 3: Trump's cuts. 120 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: Yes, who could have seen it coming, certainly not me. 121 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: Turns out, if you go and you protest, and these 122 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: are organic protests. 123 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 2: Some of them are organized, but a lot of them 124 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: are organic. 125 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: It turns out that a lot of these members of 126 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: Congress don't like it when you scream at them. And 127 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: you know, this is what happened in Trump one point 128 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: zero was that they had these town halls and people 129 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: came and screamed at them, and they did not like it. 130 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 2: And now we're seeing it again. 131 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 3: Kind of seen it coming. 132 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 2: George Conway is a contributor to the Atlantic. 133 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, your friend and mine, George. 134 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 4: Conway, I I'm back. 135 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 2: So here's my question for you, Legal or illegal? 136 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 4: Illegal? I just play percentages. I don't have to hear 137 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 4: the question. I mean, I have my own podcast and 138 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 4: we used to call it the latest in the legal 139 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 4: trunk legal news, but it's now we call it the 140 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 4: latest in illegal news because Pat covers it mostly. 141 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: So let's talk this for so nih fund freezes legal 142 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: or illegal. 143 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 4: The only way to know exactly whether something is illegal 144 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 4: or legal is to actually go to the appropriations bills 145 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 4: and see to what extent any of this you know 146 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 4: is discretionary in unwers. And I've never been working in Congress, 147 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 4: and I never read an appropriation's bill. But generally speaking, 148 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 4: if Congress has allocated money for a specific purpose, and 149 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 4: the language is such that it can be determined that 150 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 4: it is that a reasonable reading of it is that 151 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 4: it's mandatory that the government shall spend X, then the 152 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 4: government shall spend X. And it's not for the president 153 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 4: to say, well, you say I want to spend X, 154 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 4: but I don't want to spend X, I don't want 155 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 4: to do that, and you can't do that. And there's 156 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 4: a there's a nineteen seventy five I think, a Supreme 157 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 4: Court case called Train versus New York, where the Supreme 158 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 4: Court basically says, look, if the statute says the president 159 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 4: has to spend money, the president has to spend money. 160 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 4: And then on top of that, before Train versus the 161 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 4: United States, this law didn't apply to Train. But there's 162 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 4: something called the Impoundment Act that Congress passed to respond 163 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 4: to President Nixon's refusal to spend money on various things, 164 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 4: and it says, it's very very specific about the conditions 165 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 4: and procedures by which the president can decline to spend money. 166 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 4: He has to jump through lots of hoops, and as 167 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 4: you know, he can't jump very correct. Also can't read. 168 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 2: Wait say more about how Donald Trump can't read? 169 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 4: Well, what's there to say? I mean, he can't spell, 170 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 4: he can't read. He's got a lot of problems, but 171 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 4: thankfully he's got somebody who can tell him what to do. 172 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 4: A genius who is that? Maybe? 173 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 2: Long? 174 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 1: What do you think you know all of these people, 175 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: or at least you know some of these people? 176 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 2: It seems like the. 177 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: Big conflict right now is the law versus Donald Trump, 178 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: and more specifically the judges and the courts. 179 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,559 Speaker 2: So I want you to sort of talk us through. 180 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: Where we are here with like they keep going to 181 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: the courts, they keep losing. We're seeing Mike Lee and 182 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk and some of the Rain Trust saying like, 183 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: you have to go against the judges, you have to 184 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: impeach the judges, you have to fight against the law. 185 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: Play this out for me. 186 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 4: All right, here's my take on this. I mean, generally speaking, 187 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 4: there are always going to be inter ranch conflicts. There 188 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 4: are always happen There would be going to be circumstances 189 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 4: where an administration pushes an interpretation of the law that 190 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 4: others may not share and that the courts may not 191 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 4: ultimately share. And there's that that's a natural push and 192 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 4: pull between Congress, who writes the laws, the President, who 193 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 4: administers the laws and to some extent interprets them, and 194 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 4: then the courts, which end up have always been since 195 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 4: Barbary against manisl which we all learn in. 196 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: In law school. I learned about it in law. 197 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 4: School, Oh, high school or earlier. 198 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: You speak for yourself, learned about it in law school. 199 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: Go on, did you run law school? 200 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: I didn't go to college. Oh I'm a degenerate gangster. 201 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 4: But yes, continue, okay, all right, yeah, you just drove 202 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 4: around in your limousine. 203 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 5: Liberal I mean. 204 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 4: Limits, I'll have you know. 205 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 2: I have a master's degree. 206 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 4: Like, let me know, Europe, you're a very liberal person. 207 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 4: You have a book coming out, but everyone, absolutely everyone 208 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 4: should buy it. 209 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 2: Yes, people love that book. Do you want to outsend 210 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 2: you a PDF if you want by? 211 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 4: I would love to. I would would It would make 212 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 4: the adat Okay, So to go back to that, I 213 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 4: mean so there's always been this push and pull. But 214 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 4: the bottom line is what has kept us going as 215 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 4: a constitutional republic for now, well for two hundred and 216 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 4: what thirty seven years or so whatever it was in 217 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 4: seventeen eighty nine, is that, ultimately, when the court say 218 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 4: the law means ex the president has complied. There have 219 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 4: been circumstances where presidents have threatened not to comply, like 220 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 4: Andrew Jackson saying let those courts enforce their rulings, But 221 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 4: generally presidents have complied. The executive branch has complied with 222 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 4: four orders. Now you have a president and an administration 223 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 4: that does not appear to give much of a shit. 224 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 4: Is an important legal term about following the laws or 225 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 4: following what Congress has said, and a perfect example of 226 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 4: that are these spending cases that you started the discussion with. 227 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 4: Another example is doge, which relates to that, but also 228 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 4: writes the more fundamental notion about whether or not somebody 229 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 4: with the power that Elon Lusk is exercising is someone 230 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 4: who has to be appointed to an office that is 231 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 4: created by Congress. And since he's basically running around as 232 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 4: essentially the chief operating officer of the United States, telling 233 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 4: cabinet agencies what to do, the Constitution requires that somebody 234 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 4: exercising such authority, as essentially he's ahead of the reports 235 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 4: to nobody else but Trump. If anything Trump may report 236 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 4: to him, that person has to be sentate confirmed. And 237 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 4: they're ignoring that very basic element of the Constitution. They 238 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 4: are running roughshod over laws to see what they can 239 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 4: get away with, and see what they can get away 240 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 4: with before courts tell them to stop. And they're doing 241 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 4: it with such frequency and such alacrity that you have 242 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 4: to wonder why should they obey a court oral if 243 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 4: they don't care about what Congress has to say if 244 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,839 Speaker 4: they don't care about the laws and the constitution. And 245 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 4: the constitution for example, a great example of that is 246 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 4: Birthright citizensp, where a constitution says, in words of one syllable, 247 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 4: but if you are born or naturalized in the United 248 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 4: States of America, you are a citizen. And there are 249 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 4: no exceptions to that other than four children or foreign diplomats. 250 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 4: They don't care about the law. So what does anyone 251 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 4: believe that they are going to obey court orders? And 252 00:13:55,679 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 4: when you add to that the nuts and bulls how 253 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 4: court's orders are enforced, it becomes even more showing. Because 254 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 4: courts do not have their They do not have soldiers, 255 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 4: they do not have police officers except for the Supreme Court, 256 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 4: which has police officers who patrol the plaza to make 257 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 4: sure there are people don't throws eggs at the court. 258 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 4: But they have no independent way of enforcing their orders. 259 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 4: The way that an order gets enforced is let's say 260 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 4: I assue you and the court orders you to stop 261 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 4: doing something, whatever it is, and you just keep doing it, 262 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 4: and so I file emotion saying, hey, Molly's not obeying 263 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 4: your judgment. And if you don't obey the judgment, the 264 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 4: court can hold you in what's called civil contempt, meaning 265 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 4: the court can incarcerate you until you comply with the order, 266 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 4: or can find you one thousand dollars a day, and 267 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 4: sometimes they even have these exponentially increasing fines two thousand 268 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 4: to second day, four eight and so on to compa 269 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 4: tell you to obey the court order. But here's the rub. 270 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 4: What mechanism does the court use to enforce those orders 271 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 4: to haul you in, to arrest you on the street 272 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 4: or at your house, or to attach your property. It's 273 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 4: something called the United States Marshal Service. And they are 274 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 4: fine people, and they are sworn to uphold the law 275 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 4: and to obey the court orders and to assist the courts. 276 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 4: But they are an agency of the United States Department 277 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 4: of Justice. They are part of the executive branch. The 278 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 4: President gets to say who the head of the United 279 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 4: States Marshall Service is. Then the Attorney General gets to 280 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 4: tell the head of the United States Marshal Service what 281 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 4: to do. So what if the order comes down saying 282 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 4: that any court orders that are directed at or contempt 283 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 4: orders whatever that are directed at members of this administration 284 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 4: shall be referred to the head of the United States 285 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 4: Marshall Service. And I suppose, you know, the head of 286 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 4: the United States Marshall Service is a you know, a 287 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 4: friend of Cash Bettels and Dan Bungino's and completely beholden 288 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 4: the Trump and he decides, oh, here's a nice contempt 289 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 4: order against Elon Musk. I'm not going to give it 290 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 4: to a United States Marshall to go out and force 291 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 4: and to arrest must Okay, So there is no mechan 292 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,479 Speaker 4: no now, and it's going to be hard now. Obviously 293 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 4: the point that others have made, I've been having this 294 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 4: discussion of a lot of ladies as well. The marshals 295 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 4: really want to obey orders. They want obey they have 296 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 4: they've sworn to all the constitutions. But but if nobody 297 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 4: tells them, here's the order you're going to enforce, and 298 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 4: nobody gives it to them, who's going to tell them, 299 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 4: who's going to go out there and do it? They're 300 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 4: just there is no mechanism by which we can force 301 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 4: the government, the executive branch to obey court orders at 302 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 4: the end of the day, which is why if they 303 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 4: don't obey the courts, the only thing that we've got 304 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 4: going for us is to flood the streets with people. 305 00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 2: What does it mean to flood this treats? 306 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: So when will we know, because what you're talking about 307 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: is a constitutional crisis. We're not there yet, but we 308 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: probably will be soon. So when will we know we. 309 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 2: Are in a constitutional crisis? 310 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 4: Well, we are in a constitutional crisis in a sense already. 311 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 4: It's kind of like you're going from defcon. Was it 312 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 4: five to one or one to five? I don't know 313 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,719 Speaker 4: what order it is, but we are in the early 314 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 4: stages of this, and I do believe that the government 315 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 4: is already not complying with court orders by saying, oh, gosh, 316 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 4: we don't know who's running doors. They did they play 317 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 4: a game for a few days, and they are saying, Okay, 318 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 4: we're going to obey this court order. And then it 319 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 4: turns out the right hand doesn't know what the left 320 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 4: hand is doing, and they say, ooh, somebody else was 321 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 4: doing this. We weren't able to turn that off. They're 322 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 4: using the fact that the government is big and balky 323 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 4: to kind of, you know, play like a four corners 324 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 4: defense on the courts, which is a dangerous play because 325 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 4: it really pisses off federal job is. We're at that 326 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 4: level of potential defiance, which can be a mistake for incompetence, 327 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 4: but also it's not like they're trying that hard. The 328 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 4: true constitutional crisis that you're asking about occurs when the 329 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 4: executive branch basically says, fuck you, okay, we don't agree 330 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 4: with that order, and we think that's an incorrect interpretation 331 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 4: of the law, or we think that's an incorrect interpretation 332 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 4: of the constitution, or the president, because he's president, is 333 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 4: the ultimate arbiture of what the constitution is, not the courts. 334 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 4: And this is something that we are starting to hear 335 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 4: people in and around the administration say, for example, J. D. 336 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 4: Vance said just the other day, basically, we should stop 337 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 4: obeying court orders and basically doing Andrew Jackson sentence, tell 338 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 4: the courts that you go force your awarders. And I 339 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 4: think the degree first of all, psychologically, he doesn't have 340 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 4: any respect for the law. 341 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 2: Trump right, No, No, Certainly. 342 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,880 Speaker 4: Musky's going out there now threatening saying these judges all 343 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 4: need to him be impeached. So they're threatening the judges. 344 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 4: And Trump hates the judicial system because the judicial system, 345 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 4: you know, puts people in jail who are criminals, and 346 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 4: he is a criminal, and he almost got put in jail. 347 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 4: He would be soon in jail if he hadn't gotten 348 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 4: that lucky draw in Florida with that crazy judge, Judge Cannon. 349 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 4: So it is difficult for me, and I hope I'm wrong. 350 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 4: I've never more hope to be wrong than I am 351 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 4: now about what I'm about to say. But I believe 352 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 4: that it is inevitable that this administration will openly start 353 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 4: to find court orders, and once that happens, we are lost. 354 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 4: As a there is no rule of law. If the 355 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 4: government can't bail, why the hell should anybody else? Why 356 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 4: should we pay our taxes? Right, that's the problem we face. 357 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 2: And let's go down this road for a minute. 358 00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: Because Janet Mals, the governor of May, in a meeting 359 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: with Trump and the governors, and he said, you know 360 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: you're not going to get federal funds if you let 361 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: the one trans kid go in the sports. 362 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 4: Then we know that there are any trans kids in 363 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 4: the state of Maine playing like college and Caa says 364 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 4: there were only six in the entire country playing NC. 365 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: Probably not, but anyway, the point is, so he says, 366 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: you're not going to get any federal funds, and she 367 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: actually said some the effect of, like, maybe you're not 368 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 1: going to get any federal. 369 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 4: Funds, she said, she said, we'll see you in court. 370 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 2: Right, she said that. 371 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: But she also said later on, like the question of like, 372 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 1: should we all be paying federal taxes if the federal 373 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: government is going to withhold aid, that's a road that 374 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: we could be going down. 375 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I certainly would not advocate that that's 376 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 4: a massive violation of law. But on the other hand, 377 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 4: if you have a government that has basically forsaken the 378 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 4: rule of law, and like, you know, if tomorrow the 379 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 4: government said we will have no further elections, wants to 380 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 4: destremantle the irs, who's going to fucking after anybody? And 381 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 4: when that happens, not only do you have a collapse 382 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:13,959 Speaker 4: of the civil order, the economic effects will be absolutely 383 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 4: devastating to the world. Who's going to buy a United 384 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 4: States Treasury bond? 385 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's a real question. 386 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 4: We don't know how bad this. I mean, this could 387 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 4: get really really bad unless somebody over there wakes up 388 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 4: and realizes that they're playing with fire. But they're all 389 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 4: you know, these people are psychos. 390 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 2: So are there any grown ups in the room? 391 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: Is there anyone in there who would say, maybe we 392 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: don't want to crush the federal government. 393 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 4: There may be this fellow Scott descent is by all accounts, 394 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 4: maybe there's more to him. I mean, anybody who takes 395 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 4: a job in this administration you have to have some 396 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 4: doubt on it. But the guy understands how the financial 397 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,479 Speaker 4: markets work and the global economic system works. By all accounts, 398 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 4: he's a very intelligent. But you tell Trump this, and 399 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 4: Trump's gonna say, well, you know, Trump doesn't think he 400 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 4: has to run for anything anymore, even like to serve 401 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 4: a third, four fifth, sixth, and seventh terms illegally, as 402 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 4: I keep saying, And some people think I'm out there, 403 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 4: but the shrinks all agree with me and the people 404 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 4: who have been listening for a while. And he is 405 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 4: a malignant narcissist, a narcissistic sociopath. In deep down, they 406 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 4: want vengeance over everybody and everything who has that has 407 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 4: wrong them. They want to exercise their control and power 408 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 4: over the world. And one way they get to do 409 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 4: that is to create destruction. Okay, I think of Hitler's 410 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 4: neuro order, think of there are so many examples these 411 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 4: people think of Pouted, the amount of damage he's caused 412 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 4: to his own country by this senseless war in Ukraine. 413 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 4: The hundreds of thousands of them Russians or other people 414 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 4: who are you know who have died? These people that 415 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 4: they are the worst of the worst. Trump has every 416 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 4: fits the psychological profile of somebody who is associopath and 417 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 4: a sadist. I don't think he cares. I think this 418 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 4: is his chance to seek. Everything he wants to do 419 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 4: is vengeful, everything from the trivial like the takeover of 420 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 4: the Kennedy Center to the destruction of the North Atlantic 421 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 4: Treaty Organization, which I think the Europeans have to face 422 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 4: up to the fact there is no more NATO. I 423 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 4: don't know that he's going to all of a sudden 424 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 4: wake up one morning and say, oh gee, maybe I 425 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 4: shouldn't have Elon Musky shutting down the government because people 426 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 4: are going to get mad. I don't think he gives it, damn. 427 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 4: I think all he cares about is doing harm to 428 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 4: the people he feels have disrespected him, which is basically 429 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 4: everyone higher world. 430 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 2: Game this out for me. How do you think this goes? 431 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: You think somebody eventually says like you got to stop 432 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: doing this, or you think he just keeps going and 433 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 1: then they. 434 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 4: Are going to be some cases he wins, They're going 435 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 4: to be some cases he loses. They're going to be 436 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 4: some cases he wins at the early stage. Like there 437 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 4: was this case the other day where a temporary restraining 438 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 4: order was denied. I think it was one of the 439 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 4: Doge cases. But I think he's ultimately going to lose 440 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 4: that case. I think he's going to lose most of 441 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 4: these cases, not all, so you know, are like I 442 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 4: think the Hampton Dalladier case is one he's going to win, 443 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 4: but he's going to lose a bunch of these cases. 444 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 4: And he's going to lose the Doge cases I think 445 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 4: in particular, and the Doge case is going to be 446 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 4: He's got two choices there. One is he can just 447 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 4: comply with it on the theory that Doge has done 448 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 4: enough damage already that it's done his job, so who cares? 449 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 4: Or he could say no, Elon's going to keep doing 450 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 4: what he's. 451 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 2: Doing, right, why do I care? 452 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 4: No, we don't know which case it's going to be, 453 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 4: but there are so many of them that I can't 454 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 4: help but think that a man who is showing and 455 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 4: an administration that is showing, and you know, You've got JD. 456 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 4: Vanc yea law school graduates, saying this should happen. I 457 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 4: think that at some point they're just going to say 458 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 4: we're not going to agree with the courts. And some 459 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 4: people says, well, we know the real problem is the 460 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 4: Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court's going to do ruin 461 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,479 Speaker 4: his favor, saying I don't think that's true. I think 462 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 4: they're going to rule against him in some significant cases 463 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 4: and he's going to tell them to go pounce in too. 464 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 4: And once that happens, once he is in open defiance. 465 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 2: Right, that's when you have to take to those trades. 466 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 4: That is when we moved from Poland to Hungary to Russia. 467 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 2: Thank you, George, thank you. Lizzie Presser is. 468 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: An investigative reporter for Pro Publica. Welcome to Fast Politics, Lizzie. 469 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 5: Pressler, I'm happy to be here. 470 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: Molly, please talk to us about what's happening in Texas. 471 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 5: We analyze seven years of hospital data in the state 472 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 5: of Texas, and what we saw was that when we 473 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 5: focused in on the second tremester and looked at women 474 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 5: who were experiencing miscarriages in the hospital, their rates of 475 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 5: sepsis spiked fifty percent after the first abortion band has 476 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,199 Speaker 5: put into place in twenty twenty one. And it's this 477 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 5: kind of crazy chart because the rates of sepsis are 478 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 5: really quite steady previous to the abortion law among this 479 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 5: Paesian population, and then almost immediately they shoot up. So 480 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 5: a lot of doctors who looked at the data and 481 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 5: talk to us about our methodology said, this is most 482 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 5: likely an indicator that these women are experiencing really dangerous 483 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 5: delays in the hospital when they show up experiencing a miscarriage. 484 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: So I want you to stop and explain to our 485 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: listeners what sepsis is. Talk us through kind of why 486 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 1: you think that there's such a rise in sepsis. 487 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 5: So, sepsis is the body's reaction to an infection. It's 488 00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 5: super dangerous. It can damage permanently every organ in the body. 489 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,479 Speaker 5: It can lead to apartment can need damage, permanent brain damage, 490 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,360 Speaker 5: It can rob a women of her ability to bear 491 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 5: children in the future, and it can rapidly lead to 492 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,120 Speaker 5: a dangerous drop in blood pressure and death. And what 493 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 5: we are hearing from doctors across the state is that 494 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 5: when a woman is experiencing a miscarriage and her water 495 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 5: breaks early or her cervix is dilated, she's at a 496 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 5: much higher risk of contracting an infection, and if that 497 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 5: infection is not treated properly, the risk is that it 498 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 5: will develop into sepsis and ultimately septic shock. And doctors 499 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 5: when they are seeing these women, because of the law 500 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 5: and their interpretation of the law, are being asked to 501 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 5: wait for one of two things to happen. Either the 502 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 5: fetal heartbeat needs to end and they need to be 503 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 5: able to document that, or the patient needs to show 504 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 5: signs of a life threatening condition like sepsis. We're hearing 505 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 5: from women who are saying that they're doctors who they trust, 506 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 5: are saying to them when they come in miscarrying, I'm 507 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 5: so sorry, but I can't touch you. I can't do 508 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 5: anything for you until you can track sepsis, which is 509 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 5: quite likely to happen if I don't treat you. And 510 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 5: so these women are being asked to wait until their 511 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 5: bodies develop a condition that could threaten their lives, and 512 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 5: their partners are being asked to sit by them and 513 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 5: wait for this to happen as well. 514 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: Sepsis is an infection of the whole body, and to 515 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: a certain extent, if you get far enough along in sepsis, 516 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 1: you can die, right, So you're asking these women to 517 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: roll the dice at dying because Republicans are so incredibly 518 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: anti choice. There's no good outcome from sepsis, right, Like, 519 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: talk me through this. 520 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 5: There's only danger and there's only risk when it comes 521 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 5: to developing sepsis. I mean, I think the other thing 522 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 5: that's important to know is that doctors will tell you 523 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 5: that it's extremely difficult to get ahead of sepsis once 524 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 5: it sets in. So as soon as you document this 525 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 5: life threatening condition, you're on a back foot as a doctor. 526 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 5: You're trying to make sure that it doesn't kill your patient. So, 527 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 5: I mean, we wrote about one girl last fall, Nadia Crane, 528 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 5: who was eighteen years old and kept showing up to 529 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 5: the hospital because she was sick and developing and infection 530 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 5: and kept getting turned away, and on her third visit 531 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 5: she had sepsis and she looked like she had sepsis. 532 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 5: But you have to wait for those labs to come 533 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 5: back before you say this is definitely sepsis, So you 534 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 5: have this waiting time, and in that waiting time, the 535 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 5: doctor said, we're not going to do anything until we 536 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,239 Speaker 5: can confirm fetal demise, and he made this eighteen year 537 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,479 Speaker 5: old girl who was extraordinarily sick. And the doctors from 538 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 5: the me medical notes know that this looks like sepsis, right, 539 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 5: wait an hour and a half for a second ultrasound 540 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 5: to confirm fetal wize and but by the time that 541 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 5: they confirmed it, it was too late to rush her 542 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 5: to the operating room. She had already developed such intense 543 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 5: internal bleeding that they couldn't operate, and she died with 544 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 5: her baby still in uterow Jesus, So, this is the 545 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 5: risk of sepsis. It is such a rapidly developing condition 546 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 5: that you're asking women to gamble with their lives. And 547 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 5: you're also asking doctors to wait until your patient is 548 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 5: so sick that you could lose them. It's moral hazard 549 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:14,719 Speaker 5: for them as well. 550 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: It's so this is just such an insane way to 551 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: practice medicine in this country. I mean, we shouldn't be 552 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: shocked because this is what we knew was coming. Just 553 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: explain to us, like, how sort of outside the norm 554 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: this is. 555 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 5: This shouldn't be happening. Molly and I think that when 556 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 5: we were writing these one off stories where we were 557 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 5: investigating deaths of pregnant women who were dying after they 558 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 5: experienced delays and care that followed the abortion bands. You know, 559 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 5: people would come back to us who didn't believe that 560 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 5: this was a widespread issue and say, you know, maybe 561 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 5: these are isolated events, Maybe these are bad doctors, maybe 562 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 5: this is malpractice. And so to see these numbers and 563 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 5: this data across the state of Texas at a time 564 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 5: when no state officials in any state that we know 565 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 5: of is doing work to identify the health effects of 566 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 5: these bands, and to have to confront that this is 567 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 5: not isolated. This is a state wide trend where the 568 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 5: danger for these women of being pregnant is rising dramatically. 569 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 5: It just adds to a body of evidence and to 570 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 5: a lot of anecdotal reports just how much we are 571 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 5: asking the women of this country to suffer, to gamble 572 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 5: with their lives when they get pregnant. 573 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: It feels to me like a lot of this is 574 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: about delaying treatment so that these women they sort of 575 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: have to prove that they're going to die by the 576 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: time you get to that moment. 577 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 2: A lot of times it's too light a miscarriage. 578 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 5: It's a process. That process can be hours, it can 579 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 5: be days, it can be weeks, but it. 580 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 2: Is not one moment. 581 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 5: So women are coming to the emergency room or they're 582 00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 5: going to a beeze means sent to the hospital, and 583 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 5: they their water has broken, or their cervix is dilating, 584 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 5: or they're experiencing bleeding. And whereas before these bands, the 585 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 5: standard of care would have been that these doctors who 586 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 5: they're seeing would say to them, Okay, you have three options, 587 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 5: wait and see what happens, and here are your risks 588 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 5: based on your condition. I can give you medication that 589 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 5: will help speed up the process of emptying your uterus. 590 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: And those medications are very wildly available, usable and have 591 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: been on the market for many decades and. 592 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 2: Are very safe. 593 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 5: Yes, I can give you these medications that will help 594 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 5: speed up the emptying of your uterus. Here are the 595 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 5: risk of benefits. Or I can do a procedure like 596 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 5: a even an induction, and here are the risks and 597 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 5: benefits of that. What we are hearing is that in 598 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 5: states like Taxis and other abortion band states, that option 599 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 5: of number two at number three, here's medication and here's 600 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 5: a procedure, many doctors don't even want to mention it 601 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 5: because they can't provide them untail they can document either 602 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 5: fetal deay or a life threatening illness, and so they're 603 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 5: just asking women to wait and see until they get 604 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 5: extremely sick. I mean women. They're telling women, go home 605 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 5: and check your temperature every two hours and if it 606 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 5: hits one o'q one, come back in. Go home and 607 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 5: wait for your discharge to smell so rancid that you 608 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 5: want to vomit. When doctor told a patient I spoke to, 609 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 5: it's just horrible like that, It's horrific to imagine being 610 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 5: the person I spent to. One person who is sitting 611 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 5: in a hospital room with amiotic fluid is leaking out 612 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 5: onto her thighs, right, which before fetal viability. What your 613 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 5: doctor is telling you is your feets will not survive. 614 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 5: Their lungs are relaxing, and I can't do anything for you, 615 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 5: even though I know that what's going to happen is 616 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 5: you are going to contract an infection. 617 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: Right, that's it. Texas is the first state that had 618 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: an abortion ban. It had a year before Roe was overturned. 619 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: It had SBA. So it really is the state where 620 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: we are seeing all of this happen first, right, because 621 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: it's had an abortion ban for longer than other places. 622 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: So you're seeing more and more of this in Texas 623 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: because A it's a really big state and B it's 624 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: because they've had a ban for longer. Now we're going 625 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:08,919 Speaker 1: to see this in other states. 626 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 5: Right, we have no reason to believe we won't. And 627 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 5: that's exactly everything you're saying about Texas is part of 628 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,439 Speaker 5: why we focus some of our attention there. A lot 629 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 5: of the laws in you know, the thirteen other states 630 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 5: that have abortion bands, maybe it's fourteen now, including Florida 631 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 5: that's six weeks or before, are written like nearly identically, 632 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 5: So we don't have any reason to believe that the 633 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 5: outcomes we're seeing in Texas are substantially different from outcomes 634 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 5: that we might see in other states with bands. Now, 635 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 5: I will say that there's a piece of this that 636 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 5: I think really warrants further investigation, which is how the 637 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 5: hospitals are responding to legal risk. And even in Texas, 638 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 5: We've spoken to doctors across the state, and some doctors 639 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 5: will say, oh, our hospital allows us to intervene in 640 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 5: a case like a condition called p PROM for example, 641 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:02,439 Speaker 5: which is pre viable premature rupture of membranes, your water 642 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 5: breaks early before viability. 643 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: That's a situation where there's zero chance that you will 644 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: produce a viable fetus. 645 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 5: There's very minimal chance, and even if you were to 646 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 5: have a live birth, the chances that that child would 647 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 5: survive very long are extraordinarily So some doctors are saying, 648 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,240 Speaker 5: our hospitals have said, we'll protect you. You go forward 649 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 5: with the standard of care, We'll protect you. And other 650 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 5: doctors have said that their hospitals have said, I can't 651 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 5: protect you. We don't feel comfortable as a legal team 652 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 5: to protect you, so don't go forward with that. What 653 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 5: is so troubling to me as a reporter is that 654 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 5: there's no transparency around this. And even when we as 655 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 5: journalists reach out to hospitals across the state, asked and 656 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 5: for their policies, they don't want to give us anything. 657 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, because they're scared. 658 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,760 Speaker 5: And how are as a patient, how are you supposed 659 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 5: to know you're playing Russian rulette with your life? How 660 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 5: do you know what hospital to go to and who's 661 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 5: going to treat you and who's going to give you 662 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 5: the standard of care and who's going to withhold it. 663 00:35:58,480 --> 00:35:59,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a good point. 664 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: So I'm curious when you talk to these women two 665 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: three years ago, we didn't have horror stories like this. 666 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: What is their take like, are they like, we're going 667 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: to go to blues states? Are they like, we're too 668 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:16,879 Speaker 1: poor to go to blue states? I mean, you have 669 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: women who can't get medical care. I mean, like talk 670 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: us through sort of what their take on this is. 671 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,720 Speaker 1: Do they feel like Texas is the rest of the world. 672 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:30,760 Speaker 1: Do they understand that they're being penalized for like political beliefs? 673 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: I mean, do they get sort of how unusual this 674 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: is and if they lived in a normal state or 675 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: a normal country, they wouldn't be asked to make these 676 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:41,320 Speaker 1: kind of choices. 677 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,359 Speaker 5: Anyone I've spoken to who has been put through this 678 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 5: in Texas is deeply alarmed, deeply angry. But many of 679 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 5: them going into the experience hadn't ever considered how these 680 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 5: laws would affect them. They had wanted children, These were 681 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 5: wanted pregnancies. They never wanted to lose the pregnancy, and 682 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 5: so the first bit of news they're getting when they 683 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 5: go to the doctor is you're losing something that you 684 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,760 Speaker 5: have dreamed of, and so they're kind of in grief. 685 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 5: Layer it on top of that is this shock that 686 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,240 Speaker 5: they can't get the help that they need. And many 687 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 5: of the women I've spoken to who have gone through 688 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 5: kind of horrific experiences like the ones I'm describing have 689 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 5: either left the state or are saving up to leave 690 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 5: the state. Certainly they're trying to think about what to 691 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 5: do if something happen, like what do you do if 692 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 5: you live two of hours away from a good hospital system? 693 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 5: Trying to be more proactive. 694 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, are you seeing prosecution of doctors or are they 695 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,359 Speaker 1: just sort of complying in advance? And obviously I'm not 696 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: saying this, you know, I know that this is a 697 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: lot of pressure on doctors and that they are in 698 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,880 Speaker 1: a terrible position, but I'm just curious, like what this 699 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: sort of like, are you seeing people get prosecuted? 700 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 2: What are you seeing there? 701 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 5: We've see no prosecutions of doctors in. 702 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: Texas, so it's just they're just scared that they might 703 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:01,879 Speaker 1: get prosecuted. 704 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 5: But let's just be clear, this isn't a compliance in advance. 705 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 5: It is illegal for them to intervene in these miscarriacs 706 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 5: unless they can document. One needs to be document according 707 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 5: to the law. 708 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. So interesting and also so profoundly important and terrifying. 709 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,439 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us. 710 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 5: Thank you for having me. 711 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 2: No pecto Jesse Cannon. 712 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:33,959 Speaker 3: Hi junk Fast. Ever since Peter Thiel secretly funded Hulk 713 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,839 Speaker 3: Cogan's casingg In Schwalker, we kind of knew the Republican 714 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 3: playbook would be to try to sue media into silence 715 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,359 Speaker 3: and compliance. And sure enough, we got some comments from 716 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 3: Trump this week that show that's where the way this 717 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:47,280 Speaker 3: is headed. 718 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's not a fan. 719 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 1: The ironic thing here is that while Trump hates the 720 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: mainstream media, he also is obsessed with the mainstream media. 721 00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: So he's saying that he wants to end anonymous versus. 722 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: These guys love the Second Amendment, but wait till they 723 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: hear about this First Amendment because it's going to blow 724 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 1: their minds. Now, look, it doesn't involve guns, so that's 725 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: very sad. But my guess is that this is not 726 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: going to fly. But you know, look, they're going to 727 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 1: try everything right, and even if they just get some 728 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,319 Speaker 1: of it through, they're going to be happy. So you 729 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 1: should not be surprised when you see more and more 730 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 1: anti democratic language coming out of this admin. 731 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 2: It's a feature, not above. 732 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 3: Yep, that's how it is. 733 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: Every time that's it for this episode of Fast Politics. 734 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 1: Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday to hear 735 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 1: the best minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. 736 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: If you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a 737 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: friend and keep the conversation going. 738 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.