WEBVTT - Sheila Nevins: TV Trailblazer 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.000 All my bosses were men. I didn't know women could 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:11.920 be bosses. I just didn't know. That's why this would 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:14.560 have leaned forward, leaned back, lean up. I'm not sure 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:17.640 that I was born at a time when you could 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:19.840 lean forward. I think had I leaned forward, I would 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:26.600 have toppled right over. That was Shela Evans, the president 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:31.200 of HBO Documentary Films, No surprise. That was the world 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:34.839 she became accustomed to when she set out to make 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:38.920 a name for herself in the nineteen sixties. Brian, you 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:42.800 know how my business cards say badass. I think Sheila 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:47.120 nevans business card should say f O n Force of Nature. 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:51.800 She is quite a character, isn't she. She's amazing and 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:54.160 as you said, not just a great writer, but a 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:59.080 really interesting, insightful, soulful talker, one of the best I'd 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:02.120 ever heard. Sheila came by to talk about a book 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:05.119 she's written, really a book of essays about her life 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:08.600 called You Don't Look Your Age and Other fairy Tales. 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:12.160 And I think that title is very emblematic of the 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:15.520 tone of this book, Brian, because it's sort of a 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:21.640 funny romp through her personal and professional life. And she 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:24.240 has had such an interesting life, much of it spent 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.080 doing documentaries. And I know you love documentaries as much 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:29.840 as I do, Brian. Yeah, And I don't even have 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:32.440 time to watch half the documentaries that are coming out 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:34.080 these days. There's such a glood of them. But when 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:37.120 I think about the best documentaries, I often think about 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:41.520 what's on HBO, like Going Clear about Scientology or the 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:45.720 Jinks in which Robert just basically confessed to multiple murders 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.280 on film. I mean, it was just unbelievable. Citizen for 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:52.320 about Edward Snowdon. So it was great to hear from 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:56.240 her about her perspective on that business and about the 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:59.480 lessons that she's learned over the course of her of 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:03.640 her long like she's seventy eight years old, and I think, 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:06.600 in many ways is a microcosm of the feminist movement, 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:11.560 and her stories are so I think, intensely personal and 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:16.359 really reflect the times uh that she was living in 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.480 and that we continue to live in, and painfully honest 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:22.239 by the way she talks about getting an illegal abortion, 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:25.320 she talks about having a facelift, she talks about how 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:28.160 her mother doesn't really love her, she talks about her 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:31.360 handicapped son, She she touches so many hot buttons and 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:34.639 a lot of topics that I think most writers avoid. 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:37.600 We've talked to so many fascinating people, Brian, but I 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:39.600 think this is one of my favorites. So I hope 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:43.600 you all enjoy hearing from Sheila Nevin's as much as 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:48.600 we enjoyed talking to her. Sheila, what has it been 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:54.080 like for you to share really very intensely personal stories 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:58.359 with a mass audience of people who don't really know 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:02.480 you and don't necessarily know your history or anything about you. 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:07.360 Has it been weird? It's been um very strange to 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:11.480 be public, because I've dealt my whole life with people 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:14.240 who are public or stories that are public, but I've 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:17.160 never really been public. Not that I'm public that you know, 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:19.520 I can film medicine, square Garden, don't get me wrong, 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:24.320 but it's really odd. It's very odd to sort of 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:30.919 be anonymously personal or personal anonymously, and I'm not sure 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:34.040 I enjoy it. It makes me think, in a very 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.000 small way, what celebrity must be like. Not that I 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:42.200 am a celebrity, but how incredibly the encroachment of the 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:45.960 lack of oxygen when you're just trying to sell a book. 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:48.600 You know, who wants to talk? I don't want to talking. 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:51.280 It's not something I would repeat. I really no, I 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:55.320 would never do it again. Really, And what what it been? Well, 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:57.320 first of all, I don't have any other stories left. 0:03:57.360 --> 0:03:59.800 I told them all. And second of all, I in 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:04.400 joy anonimity. I didn't know I enjoyed it, um, but 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.080 I didn't have it until well, I don't I actually 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:08.920 have it. I mean, I can go to the supermarket, 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:12.320 it's okay. But what I mean is it I don't 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:16.400 enjoy the tiny little bit of celebrity that a book brings. 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:19.560 I don't enjoy it. I don't enjoy it. I'm surprised 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:22.080 by it. And you know, it's so late in my 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:24.880 life that I would have that. But it's I see 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:26.960 why I have hid from it for so long. And 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:29.640 so if you didn't want attention and you didn't want recognition, 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.600 what motivated you to to write this? I'm told stories, 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:36.480 you know, I think I I said in the beginning, 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:38.240 I had spent so much of my life, or have 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:41.360 spent so much of my life asking people their stories 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:43.640 that I thought it was time to write mine. But 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.960 I'm not sure that's totally accurate. I think it was 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:50.279 like there were things that I had experienced, things that 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:53.080 I knew, things that I I you know, that I 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:55.880 hadn't told, things that I wanted to talk about. And 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:59.680 I thought it seemed like one of the steps want 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:01.760 to take on the way to eternity. And I thought, 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:04.200 what the hell, I'll write a book. What was the hardest? 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:09.520 You know? I mean, I really loved your unflinching honesty, 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:13.520 whether you're talking about sort of quiet moments that are 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:18.280 shared experience but never discussed, or talking about your decision 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:22.240 to get a facelift with such humor and candor and 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:27.640 something that women are never usually willing to talk about. Um. 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:31.400 But when when you sat down in front of your computer, 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:34.320 Sheila and said, I'm going to write a chapter on blank, 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:39.839 what was the hardest blank you had to tackle? Nothing 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:44.280 was hard? Nothing nothing was hard because I've heard so 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:46.880 many people tell me their stories for so long that 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:49.600 I think I I was, you know, it's sort of 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:52.200 like bursting at the seems to tell it. No, nothing 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:55.640 was hard. If it had been hard, I probably wouldn't 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:58.360 have written it. Um. It was easy to say what 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:00.480 was true, and it was easy to say what I 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:03.360 was thinking, and I didn't really care about judgment. I've 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:07.680 been around too long. What I didn't expect was personal judgment. 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:10.120 You know, I expect to feel like it, they won't 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:11.840 like it. I didn't think someone's gonna say, well, you 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:16.040 are fat, or they would say, um, you look your age, 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:21.200 or I would get these these horrible you know Instagram 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.320 Twitter responses that were like attacks. I didn't know. I 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:27.480 didn't expect that. Welcome to my world. Oh it's horrible. 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.720 How do you tolerate it? I block a lot of them? Yeah, 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:36.880 and uh, it is, actually, sweetheart, it's so psychically depleting, 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:40.599 depleting and really hard. It is hard. It is hard, 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:43.520 and you're like wow. And also, why would someone say 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.000 something like why did they care enough to say I 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:48.120 read two pages and I was so bored, don't waste 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:50.560 your money? Why would they say that? First of all, 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:52.360 the first two pages, I probably would have closed the 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:54.720 book too, But give the book a shot, you know, 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:57.120 And then they're a lot, you know, keep it to yourself, 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:00.560 and it's just you feel because I think it's easier 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:04.960 to criticize than it is to congratulate anonymously, and that's 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:07.520 what social media gives you anonymity, and I think that 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:12.400 anonymity allows the devil to come out in some way. UM, 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:14.760 because I don't think those people would face me and 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:18.280 say those things. It's very disturbing, But most of the 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:20.680 stuff is very favorable. I'm just the kind of person 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:24.679 who remembers the stuff that isn't favorable. That's my treasure 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:28.080 drove of punches. I like those. I stepping back a 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:31.080 little bit. I'm sorry to interrupt. You go ahead, and 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:35.000 one always interrupts me. I never stopped talking. So can 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:36.800 we back up for a second and talk a little 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.520 bit about your about your personal story for people who 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:42.280 don't have the context. One of the major facts of 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:45.320 your life is that your mother suffered from this disease 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:47.440 which I had never heard of before, called ray nodes, 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:51.600 which affects circulation, and ultimately she had a leg and 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:56.880 arm and three fingers amputated. How did that affect your 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.520 childhood and your perception of yourself growing up? Well, these 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:04.160 things were gradual, So it started with fingers, and you know, 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:05.920 so I would have all sorts of I always have 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:09.400 manicures to this day. Um. If I chip a nail, 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:12.960 I get very anxious. Um. But it started with fingers, 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:14.800 So I've always had a finger thing. I've always been 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:17.360 able to look at people's hands and see how tired 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:19.640 they are, you know, see if they're chipped. Let me 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:24.600 see your fingers. Yeah you're tired. Did you cut your 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:28.720 finger on that? Hid? I actually bit my cuticle off, 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:35.040 and I bite my nails. You do, yeah? You know, 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:39.160 I feel like it's so interesting. Well, can I just say, 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:46.560 Sheila dear listeners has beautiful hands and perfectly manicured fingernails, 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:50.080 And you know, I feel like nobody looks at people's hands. 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:52.040 I look at hands all the time because my mother didn't. 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:55.800 Because the first thing I experienced was, you know, the 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:58.000 tip of her finger coming off. It would get black 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:01.439 and it would really smell badly and it would literally 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:04.280 chip off and it wouldn't ever get that couldn't heal 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:07.480 because there was no circulation. It's a disease of circulation 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:10.000 in your extremities and it starts to you know, it's 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:13.440 kind of a circulatory leprosy in its most severe cases, 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.400 but it depends how serious. And obviously hers was very 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:21.400 serim serious and um from about the time I was 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:25.280 ten of eleven, she started having smaller amputations, you know, 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:27.920 the tip of a finger, and I was very embarrassed 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:30.840 about it because you know, there was like that nobby 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:33.920 end of a finger and I always hate to remember 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:35.840 that took her hand at, you know, hand out, or 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:39.040 took it out of gloves, and then it was another finger, 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.200 and then you know it was it just kept going. 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:44.959 It was like it was just horrifying you. I want 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:47.360 to interrupt for two seconds, because, um, you have a 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:52.480 whole constellation of people who for the audio version of 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.400 this book, she'lla read your essays, and I was very 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:59.559 flattered to be among them. But Meryl, Meryl reads an 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:04.920 essay that your mom, let's play it. Our sandwiches came 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:08.760 and the perfect coffee, hot on a hot day, but 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:14.400 perfectly so. Mom rested her stump on the counter. Her 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:17.920 shortened arm was heavy to lift and too short to 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:23.120 hide below the counter. Suddenly, from the other side of 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:26.360 the s shaped counter, a middle aged woman with a 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:31.439 kinky permed bob and harlequined glasses, who was fanning herself 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:34.760 with a newspaper, yelled out, please, ladies, I'm eating. It's 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:37.160 rude to expose that arm. It makes me want to 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:43.400 throw up. That's what she said. Do you remember how 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:47.040 you felt when that happened. You know, the thing about 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:49.720 someone is brilliant and genius in one of a kind, 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:53.080 as Meryl Streep is it. She sounded like my mother 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.360 when she read it, and it was, you know, not 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:57.360 a woo woo kind of person. But I have to 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:01.160 say it freaked me out when she read it because 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:05.880 I wrote it without crying. I rewrote it many times 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.960 without crying, but when Meryl Street read it, I cried. 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:12.000 It was something in the way that she read it 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:16.680 that she sounded like my mother. She just sounded like it. 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:18.440 And I felt that I was in chock full of 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.080 nuts and that I was They're all over again. And 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:23.360 I guess that's the genius of great acting, which is 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:26.480 that you immerse yourself and roll so much. But I 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:29.680 was almost afraid to say goodbye to her after the 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.960 record session was over, because I felt that we were 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:35.839 very intimately engaged, and yet I don't really know her 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:39.160 that well. So it's a very strange experience. But I 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:41.600 do remember that it was so many years ago, but 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:43.960 I remember being terrified that the woman would beat me 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.520 up or hurt me, which was a very I think 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:49.840 in retrospect a sort of a normal reaction, because she 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:53.280 was so hostile and the arm was such an affront 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:56.120 to her that I felt that she was going to 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.520 hurt us, hurt me, not that I hadn't already been 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:03.400 hurt by the amputation itself. But um, I remember it, 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:05.640 you know, I remember it, especially when I hear that 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:09.160 little clip. I remember it. And yet you know it 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:13.079 sounds like obviously it was very upsetting for you, but 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.720 it did you feel protective of your mom in that instance? 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.840 Because I think that no, I felt ashamed ashamed. I 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:22.600 felt ashamed, and I have spent a lot of time 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:24.840 thinking about that in my life, which has been a 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:30.479 long one, which is, um, why was I ashamed of disability? 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:35.960 Maybe disability brings with it its own in addition to 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:39.560 the imperfection of not having a particular limb or having 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:42.840 some imperfection, it also brings a kind of embarrassment and 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:46.160 not being like other people. And I hate that feeling. 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:50.720 I hate that feeling of, you know, of of being 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:54.079 ashamed of a disability rather than proud that you're surviving 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:56.440 with that disability. And so I think that I have 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.480 worked very hard to be proud of difference and to 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:06.040 assert difference, especially in docues, as something that is something 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:09.200 to be to feel very strongly about that. To be 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:11.319 like everybody else is not always the best thing in 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:14.080 the world. And to survive and affliction is probably one 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:16.320 of the great things of the world. And to say 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.280 this is me. I don't have an arm you know, 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:21.160 this is me. You know I have an illness. This 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.840 is me. You know I can't see you, but I 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:27.280 can feel your presence. I think those are very important 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:31.120 stories to tell, um, because everybody has a disability somewhere. 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:34.319 Certainly the woman with the harlequin glasses was much more 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:36.760 disabled than my mother as a human being, which I 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.920 guess is the greatest disability at all. So you know, 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.760 I do remember it and it influences me. It's interesting 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:49.160 because your son Um had Tourette's um and you you 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:54.320 write about that and his his childhood struggle. Rosie o'donnald 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:56.400 read this essay in the audio book. So let's listen 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.400 to that and then we'll talk about it. Sheila, why 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:01.240 does my do you do what I don't want it 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:05.800 to do? He asked, So came the useless explanations that 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:08.400 I deemed suitable for a now seven year old boy. 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:10.920 A body sometimes misses up David. You know, then it 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:13.920 gets better and the body's brain can be very, very 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:17.720 very smart, or so I hoped that Jumble would explain it. 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.720 You see, sometimes the body mixes up messages like getting 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:24.960 the wrong male. You're not make it sense, Mom, I 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:30.600 wasn't making sense. I was there alone into et Land. 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:36.440 I didn't really know the answer. How did your experience 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.840 with your mom, Sheila sort of affect how you parented 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:44.040 your son? It was interesting. I my mother was dead 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:50.000 before my son arrived, and UM, I felt somehow that 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:53.840 this was my role in life, that I was somehow 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:57.440 to be the caretaker of the wounded UM. Although David 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:01.840 is certainly outgrown his true as at that particular point, 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:06.400 from five till about ten, prepubescent, he had a very 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.400 pretty severe case UM. But I felt as if I 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.720 had gone from one caretaker to another caretaker. The difference 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:16.080 was I always felt my mother had friends and adults 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:21.160 and enough um help from the outside to leave me alone, 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.240 Whereas I thought it was my role to take care 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:28.280 of David lovingly and caringly, and it was the most 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.480 important thing in my life. And I didn't feel I thought, 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:34.000 this is irony, right, I'm going from my mother to 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:37.040 my son as a caretaker. But in one case it 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:39.480 was obligatory, and in the other case it was out 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:42.680 of you know, just sheer love and passion and sorrow 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.240 and wanting him to be better. So it was, but 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.240 it was a very strange confluence of of you know, 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:51.160 sort of like a cutout doll. I was like cut 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:55.000 out for caretaking. But I'm not taking care of you now. 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:57.520 I have to say, I think you're a beautiful writer. 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:02.040 I love really and and you can see why because 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:06.640 I think you're a beautiful speaker too. No, I really 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:12.080 mean that, and I don't isn't it nice? So naturally, 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:14.120 but if I close my eyes I can tell a story. 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:17.360 If I keep them open, I have a hard time. Well, 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:19.680 when we come back, I want to talk more, and 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:23.200 I know Brian's interested in this as well, about really 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:29.840 your legendary career supporting and making documentaries and um, what 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:32.960 it's been like to be a woman in this business 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:36.560 all these years, something I'm particularly interested in as well. 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:38.600 So we'll be back with more from Shell and Evans 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:54.200 right after this. We're back with Sheil and Evans, which 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:56.520 is a real treat because you know, Sheila, you can 0:16:56.560 --> 0:17:00.040 be a sort of um modest and self effaced in 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:02.720 as you want. But I think what what strikes people 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:06.920 about this book is that you're writing about real stuff, right, 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.760 So I think when things resonate with us and people 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:12.800 can say, oh, I know what that feels like, or 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:15.199 I can relate to that. When you were at the 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:19.920 Literary Partner's dinner and you were talking about your facelift, 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.400 you know, I was thinking, Ship, you know, I kind 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:25.080 of need a facelift. I need to. I don't know 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.400 what I ever do that. I you know, I'm feeling 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:33.280 like I'm getting older and less attractive, and it's a 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:36.040 hard thing to to go through the whole thing to do. 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:38.879 It's better both sides of it. I was what the 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:43.280 facelift aging in general? No aging, I can tell you crappy. 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:45.720 But I would say that a facelift, I could say, 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:48.800 if it makes you feel better, it's low risk, although 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:50.919 it is risk. Ull surgery is risk. Do what if 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:52.680 it makes you feel bit On the other hand, I 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:56.639 would say it's a superficial, unnecessary thing. You haven't been 0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:59.280 hired as a rocket, you've been hired because you're bright 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.280 and smart and make something happen, So just shut up 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.040 and get old. So I I would say that there's 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:08.080 there's two there are two people here, but I want 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:10.920 to be a rocket. I'm just kuddy. I don't there 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:15.760 are openings at the ARP. That would be sad. That 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:20.919 sounds like a really bad made for TV movie. Yes, definitely, 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.080 but but but it was so funny hearing you talk 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:28.119 about it. I can't be I can't, I can't what 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:30.960 can I say? I can't endorse it because I endorse 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:33.160 it because I did it. I can't endorse it because 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:35.680 I'm not so proud that I did it. But I'm 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:37.919 proud that I could talk about it and say, you 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:42.440 know what a fool I am. You know, it's it's ridiculous, 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:44.520 ridiculous when you think about it. I mean, you know, 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:48.000 a plastic surgery was really invented after Hiroshima when the 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:51.800 Maidens came, and they really not exactly invented, but it 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:56.400 became a profession which was repairing wounded faces, war faces, 0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:01.200 you know, tortured faces from you know, napem and and 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:08.200 bombs and burns and um from it emerged this vanity sphere, 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:11.480 which you know, it seems to be getting going down 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:14.560 to younger and younger people. Then came chemicals that could 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:18.920 fill up holes, you know, botox, which was used for uh, 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:23.000 you know, paralysis of certain ticks. Suddenly they thought, oh 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:24.960 my god, not only does it stopped the tick, but 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:29.000 it also make smooths out to wrinkle. So suddenly this 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:35.960 whole industry, which I support readily and almost embarrassingly um emerged. 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:38.679 But you know, I never said I was trying to 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:42.120 think of an artful way of getting me out of this. Yeah, 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.320 there's no sege. I was trying to think of an 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.680 artful segue about sleeping with your bosses. But I don't 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:49.919 know how I can go from You didn't read it 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:53.000 very carefully. It was a boss okay. In an interview, 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:54.560 you said, I don't know that I slept my way 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:57.040 to the top, but I didn't not sleep with my 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:00.560 bosses plural in the early days when they wanted me. 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:03.639 And then the interviewer asked, and how is that different 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:05.359 from sleeping your way at the top, if you slept 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:09.119 with your bosses, this interview responded, there weren't that many. 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:13.560 This was this was also in that CBS interview. Yeah, Jesus, 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:15.840 she's really And so do you regret that or no? 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:21.000 I don't regret. I don't regret anything. I mean, I'm 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:23.199 you know what, am I going to regret that I 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:25.040 slept with my boss? Didn't mean anything to me. It 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:28.320 obviously meant a lot to him. He promoted me, So 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:31.560 you know I didn't demote him. I just paid no 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:34.080 attention to him once he promoted me. So who lost 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:37.080 him or me? But you talked about how you changed 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:39.880 your view on this subject. I was interested very much 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:43.600 by Glorious Dinham. But I'm not Glorious Dinham. I'm not 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.879 as I'm much more superficial. But I actually didn't know 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:49.480 there was another way. I really didn't know. I was pretty. 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:52.920 I was young. I wanted to advance. All my bosses 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:55.320 were men. All my bosses at the l Drama School 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:59.200 there were nine or ten people in the directing program, 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:04.200 one as a woman, um, and the rest of you're 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:07.480 all men. All my teachers were men. I I all 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:09.920 my jobs were men. I never you know, I didn't 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:11.720 have a woman boss. I didn't. I didn't even know 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:15.480 what that was. Um, I didn't know women could be bosses. 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:17.919 Until I got to children's television workshop and worked for 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:21.600 Joan Cooney. But I didn't know. I just didn't know. 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:25.439 That's why this sort of lean forward, lean back, lean up. 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:28.840 I'm not sure that I was born at a time 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:31.240 when you could lean forward. I think had I leaned forward, 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:34.920 I would have toppled right over. So maybe I leaned back. 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:37.919 But I mean, bosses, I mean, I'm trying to count. 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:44.320 It's certainly maybe three more likely to I think three 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:50.760 playing around too for real? Is that fair? I don't know. Anyway, 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:54.119 you can talk about going from Helen Helen Gurley Brown 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:58.560 to Gloria Steinham. So do you think today she left 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:03.000 you were a young man trying to have a career, 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:07.399 that that would have would ever cross your mind that, hey, 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:09.720 you know, I'll do this if it's going to help me. 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:13.760 I would like to say I wouldn't do it. I 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:17.159 would like to be honest, but then again, I'm so honest. Um, 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:20.440 I can't answer that because I'm not a young woman today. 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:23.239 But I wanted to succeed badly. And if those were 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.399 the shots that were called, and I knew beforehand they 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:28.240 were the shots, I'm not talking about someone coming in 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:30.040 your office, throwing you on the ground, and you know, 0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:33.159 fucking you, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:39.199 a complicit kind of understanding that this is the step ladder. 0:22:40.040 --> 0:22:43.720 And you know, I don't really know. I don't know 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:46.280 not saying what you think. A woman sits in a 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:49.399 room and doesn't talk, a woman talks and gets interrupted. 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:52.879 Those are all forms of harassment, you know. I don't know. 0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:55.960 Do you think do you think things have changed a lot? 0:22:56.040 --> 0:22:58.560 Because I still see I don't think they've changed as 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:01.000 much as we'd like to think they've changed. I don't. 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:04.280 I simply don't think that, you know. I asked Gloria 0:23:04.359 --> 0:23:07.200