Speaker 1: All my bosses were men. I didn't know women could
Speaker 1: be bosses. I just didn't know. That's why this would
Speaker 1: have leaned forward, leaned back, lean up. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: that I was born at a time when you could
Speaker 1: lean forward. I think had I leaned forward, I would
Speaker 1: have toppled right over. That was Shela Evans, the president
Speaker 1: of HBO Documentary Films, No surprise. That was the world
Speaker 1: she became accustomed to when she set out to make
Speaker 1: a name for herself in the nineteen sixties. Brian, you
Speaker 1: know how my business cards say badass. I think Sheila
Speaker 1: nevans business card should say f O n Force of Nature.
Speaker 1: She is quite a character, isn't she. She's amazing and
Speaker 1: as you said, not just a great writer, but a
Speaker 1: really interesting, insightful, soulful talker, one of the best I'd
Speaker 1: ever heard. Sheila came by to talk about a book
Speaker 1: she's written, really a book of essays about her life
Speaker 1: called You Don't Look Your Age and Other fairy Tales.
Speaker 1: And I think that title is very emblematic of the
Speaker 1: tone of this book, Brian, because it's sort of a
Speaker 1: funny romp through her personal and professional life. And she
Speaker 1: has had such an interesting life, much of it spent
Speaker 1: doing documentaries. And I know you love documentaries as much
Speaker 1: as I do, Brian. Yeah, And I don't even have
Speaker 1: time to watch half the documentaries that are coming out
Speaker 1: these days. There's such a glood of them. But when
Speaker 1: I think about the best documentaries, I often think about
Speaker 1: what's on HBO, like Going Clear about Scientology or the
Speaker 1: Jinks in which Robert just basically confessed to multiple murders
Speaker 1: on film. I mean, it was just unbelievable. Citizen for
Speaker 1: about Edward Snowdon. So it was great to hear from
Speaker 1: her about her perspective on that business and about the
Speaker 1: lessons that she's learned over the course of her of
Speaker 1: her long like she's seventy eight years old, and I think,
Speaker 1: in many ways is a microcosm of the feminist movement,
Speaker 1: and her stories are so I think, intensely personal and
Speaker 1: really reflect the times uh that she was living in
Speaker 1: and that we continue to live in, and painfully honest
Speaker 1: by the way she talks about getting an illegal abortion,
Speaker 1: she talks about having a facelift, she talks about how
Speaker 1: her mother doesn't really love her, she talks about her
Speaker 1: handicapped son, She she touches so many hot buttons and
Speaker 1: a lot of topics that I think most writers avoid.
Speaker 1: We've talked to so many fascinating people, Brian, but I
Speaker 1: think this is one of my favorites. So I hope
Speaker 1: you all enjoy hearing from Sheila Nevin's as much as
Speaker 1: we enjoyed talking to her. Sheila, what has it been
Speaker 1: like for you to share really very intensely personal stories
Speaker 1: with a mass audience of people who don't really know
Speaker 1: you and don't necessarily know your history or anything about you.
Speaker 1: Has it been weird? It's been um very strange to
Speaker 1: be public, because I've dealt my whole life with people
Speaker 1: who are public or stories that are public, but I've
Speaker 1: never really been public. Not that I'm public that you know,
Speaker 1: I can film medicine, square Garden, don't get me wrong,
Speaker 1: but it's really odd. It's very odd to sort of
Speaker 1: be anonymously personal or personal anonymously, and I'm not sure
Speaker 1: I enjoy it. It makes me think, in a very
Speaker 1: small way, what celebrity must be like. Not that I
Speaker 1: am a celebrity, but how incredibly the encroachment of the
Speaker 1: lack of oxygen when you're just trying to sell a book.
Speaker 1: You know, who wants to talk? I don't want to talking.
Speaker 1: It's not something I would repeat. I really no, I
Speaker 1: would never do it again. Really, And what what it been? Well,
Speaker 1: first of all, I don't have any other stories left.
Speaker 1: I told them all. And second of all, I in
Speaker 1: joy anonimity. I didn't know I enjoyed it, um, but
Speaker 1: I didn't have it until well, I don't I actually
Speaker 1: have it. I mean, I can go to the supermarket,
Speaker 1: it's okay. But what I mean is it I don't
Speaker 1: enjoy the tiny little bit of celebrity that a book brings.
Speaker 1: I don't enjoy it. I don't enjoy it. I'm surprised
Speaker 1: by it. And you know, it's so late in my
Speaker 1: life that I would have that. But it's I see
Speaker 1: why I have hid from it for so long. And
Speaker 1: so if you didn't want attention and you didn't want recognition,
Speaker 1: what motivated you to to write this? I'm told stories,
Speaker 1: you know, I think I I said in the beginning,
Speaker 1: I had spent so much of my life, or have
Speaker 1: spent so much of my life asking people their stories
Speaker 1: that I thought it was time to write mine. But
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's totally accurate. I think it was
Speaker 1: like there were things that I had experienced, things that
Speaker 1: I knew, things that I I you know, that I
Speaker 1: hadn't told, things that I wanted to talk about. And
Speaker 1: I thought it seemed like one of the steps want
Speaker 1: to take on the way to eternity. And I thought,
Speaker 1: what the hell, I'll write a book. What was the hardest?
Speaker 1: You know? I mean, I really loved your unflinching honesty,
Speaker 1: whether you're talking about sort of quiet moments that are
Speaker 1: shared experience but never discussed, or talking about your decision
Speaker 1: to get a facelift with such humor and candor and
Speaker 1: something that women are never usually willing to talk about. Um.
Speaker 1: But when when you sat down in front of your computer,
Speaker 1: Sheila and said, I'm going to write a chapter on blank,
Speaker 1: what was the hardest blank you had to tackle? Nothing
Speaker 1: was hard? Nothing nothing was hard because I've heard so
Speaker 1: many people tell me their stories for so long that
Speaker 1: I think I I was, you know, it's sort of
Speaker 1: like bursting at the seems to tell it. No, nothing
Speaker 1: was hard. If it had been hard, I probably wouldn't
Speaker 1: have written it. Um. It was easy to say what
Speaker 1: was true, and it was easy to say what I
Speaker 1: was thinking, and I didn't really care about judgment. I've
Speaker 1: been around too long. What I didn't expect was personal judgment.
Speaker 1: You know, I expect to feel like it, they won't
Speaker 1: like it. I didn't think someone's gonna say, well, you
Speaker 1: are fat, or they would say, um, you look your age,
Speaker 1: or I would get these these horrible you know Instagram
Speaker 1: Twitter responses that were like attacks. I didn't know. I
Speaker 1: didn't expect that. Welcome to my world. Oh it's horrible.
Speaker 1: How do you tolerate it? I block a lot of them? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and uh, it is, actually, sweetheart, it's so psychically depleting,
Speaker 1: depleting and really hard. It is hard. It is hard,
Speaker 1: and you're like wow. And also, why would someone say
Speaker 1: something like why did they care enough to say I
Speaker 1: read two pages and I was so bored, don't waste
Speaker 1: your money? Why would they say that? First of all,
Speaker 1: the first two pages, I probably would have closed the
Speaker 1: book too, But give the book a shot, you know,
Speaker 1: And then they're a lot, you know, keep it to yourself,
Speaker 1: and it's just you feel because I think it's easier
Speaker 1: to criticize than it is to congratulate anonymously, and that's
Speaker 1: what social media gives you anonymity, and I think that
Speaker 1: anonymity allows the devil to come out in some way. UM,
Speaker 1: because I don't think those people would face me and
Speaker 1: say those things. It's very disturbing, But most of the
Speaker 1: stuff is very favorable. I'm just the kind of person
Speaker 1: who remembers the stuff that isn't favorable. That's my treasure
Speaker 1: drove of punches. I like those. I stepping back a
Speaker 1: little bit. I'm sorry to interrupt. You go ahead, and
Speaker 1: one always interrupts me. I never stopped talking. So can
Speaker 1: we back up for a second and talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about your about your personal story for people who
Speaker 1: don't have the context. One of the major facts of
Speaker 1: your life is that your mother suffered from this disease
Speaker 1: which I had never heard of before, called ray nodes,
Speaker 1: which affects circulation, and ultimately she had a leg and
Speaker 1: arm and three fingers amputated. How did that affect your
Speaker 1: childhood and your perception of yourself growing up? Well, these
Speaker 1: things were gradual, So it started with fingers, and you know,
Speaker 1: so I would have all sorts of I always have
Speaker 1: manicures to this day. Um. If I chip a nail,
Speaker 1: I get very anxious. Um. But it started with fingers,
Speaker 1: So I've always had a finger thing. I've always been
Speaker 1: able to look at people's hands and see how tired
Speaker 1: they are, you know, see if they're chipped. Let me
Speaker 1: see your fingers. Yeah you're tired. Did you cut your
Speaker 1: finger on that? Hid? I actually bit my cuticle off,
Speaker 1: and I bite my nails. You do, yeah? You know,
Speaker 1: I feel like it's so interesting. Well, can I just say,
Speaker 1: Sheila dear listeners has beautiful hands and perfectly manicured fingernails,
Speaker 1: And you know, I feel like nobody looks at people's hands.
Speaker 1: I look at hands all the time because my mother didn't.
Speaker 1: Because the first thing I experienced was, you know, the
Speaker 1: tip of her finger coming off. It would get black
Speaker 1: and it would really smell badly and it would literally
Speaker 1: chip off and it wouldn't ever get that couldn't heal
Speaker 1: because there was no circulation. It's a disease of circulation
Speaker 1: in your extremities and it starts to you know, it's
Speaker 1: kind of a circulatory leprosy in its most severe cases,
Speaker 1: but it depends how serious. And obviously hers was very
Speaker 1: serim serious and um from about the time I was
Speaker 1: ten of eleven, she started having smaller amputations, you know,
Speaker 1: the tip of a finger, and I was very embarrassed
Speaker 1: about it because you know, there was like that nobby
Speaker 1: end of a finger and I always hate to remember
Speaker 1: that took her hand at, you know, hand out, or
Speaker 1: took it out of gloves, and then it was another finger,
Speaker 1: and then you know it was it just kept going.
Speaker 1: It was like it was just horrifying you. I want
Speaker 1: to interrupt for two seconds, because, um, you have a
Speaker 1: whole constellation of people who for the audio version of
Speaker 1: this book, she'lla read your essays, and I was very
Speaker 1: flattered to be among them. But Meryl, Meryl reads an
Speaker 1: essay that your mom, let's play it. Our sandwiches came
Speaker 1: and the perfect coffee, hot on a hot day, but
Speaker 1: perfectly so. Mom rested her stump on the counter. Her
Speaker 1: shortened arm was heavy to lift and too short to
Speaker 1: hide below the counter. Suddenly, from the other side of
Speaker 1: the s shaped counter, a middle aged woman with a
Speaker 1: kinky permed bob and harlequined glasses, who was fanning herself
Speaker 1: with a newspaper, yelled out, please, ladies, I'm eating. It's
Speaker 1: rude to expose that arm. It makes me want to
Speaker 1: throw up. That's what she said. Do you remember how
Speaker 1: you felt when that happened. You know, the thing about
Speaker 1: someone is brilliant and genius in one of a kind,
Speaker 1: as Meryl Streep is it. She sounded like my mother
Speaker 1: when she read it, and it was, you know, not
Speaker 1: a woo woo kind of person. But I have to
Speaker 1: say it freaked me out when she read it because
Speaker 1: I wrote it without crying. I rewrote it many times
Speaker 1: without crying, but when Meryl Street read it, I cried.
Speaker 1: It was something in the way that she read it
Speaker 1: that she sounded like my mother. She just sounded like it.
Speaker 1: And I felt that I was in chock full of
Speaker 1: nuts and that I was They're all over again. And
Speaker 1: I guess that's the genius of great acting, which is
Speaker 1: that you immerse yourself and roll so much. But I
Speaker 1: was almost afraid to say goodbye to her after the
Speaker 1: record session was over, because I felt that we were
Speaker 1: very intimately engaged, and yet I don't really know her
Speaker 1: that well. So it's a very strange experience. But I
Speaker 1: do remember that it was so many years ago, but
Speaker 1: I remember being terrified that the woman would beat me
Speaker 1: up or hurt me, which was a very I think
Speaker 1: in retrospect a sort of a normal reaction, because she
Speaker 1: was so hostile and the arm was such an affront
Speaker 1: to her that I felt that she was going to
Speaker 1: hurt us, hurt me, not that I hadn't already been
Speaker 1: hurt by the amputation itself. But um, I remember it,
Speaker 1: you know, I remember it, especially when I hear that
Speaker 1: little clip. I remember it. And yet you know it
Speaker 1: sounds like obviously it was very upsetting for you, but
Speaker 1: it did you feel protective of your mom in that instance?
Speaker 1: Because I think that no, I felt ashamed ashamed. I
Speaker 1: felt ashamed, and I have spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: thinking about that in my life, which has been a
Speaker 1: long one, which is, um, why was I ashamed of disability?
Speaker 1: Maybe disability brings with it its own in addition to
Speaker 1: the imperfection of not having a particular limb or having
Speaker 1: some imperfection, it also brings a kind of embarrassment and
Speaker 1: not being like other people. And I hate that feeling.
Speaker 1: I hate that feeling of, you know, of of being
Speaker 1: ashamed of a disability rather than proud that you're surviving
Speaker 1: with that disability. And so I think that I have
Speaker 1: worked very hard to be proud of difference and to
Speaker 1: assert difference, especially in docues, as something that is something
Speaker 1: to be to feel very strongly about that. To be
Speaker 1: like everybody else is not always the best thing in
Speaker 1: the world. And to survive and affliction is probably one
Speaker 1: of the great things of the world. And to say
Speaker 1: this is me. I don't have an arm you know,
Speaker 1: this is me. You know I have an illness. This
Speaker 1: is me. You know I can't see you, but I
Speaker 1: can feel your presence. I think those are very important
Speaker 1: stories to tell, um, because everybody has a disability somewhere.
Speaker 1: Certainly the woman with the harlequin glasses was much more
Speaker 1: disabled than my mother as a human being, which I
Speaker 1: guess is the greatest disability at all. So you know,
Speaker 1: I do remember it and it influences me. It's interesting
Speaker 1: because your son Um had Tourette's um and you you
Speaker 1: write about that and his his childhood struggle. Rosie o'donnald
Speaker 1: read this essay in the audio book. So let's listen
Speaker 1: to that and then we'll talk about it. Sheila, why
Speaker 1: does my do you do what I don't want it
Speaker 1: to do? He asked, So came the useless explanations that
Speaker 1: I deemed suitable for a now seven year old boy.
Speaker 1: A body sometimes misses up David. You know, then it
Speaker 1: gets better and the body's brain can be very, very
Speaker 1: very smart, or so I hoped that Jumble would explain it.
Speaker 1: You see, sometimes the body mixes up messages like getting
Speaker 1: the wrong male. You're not make it sense, Mom, I
Speaker 1: wasn't making sense. I was there alone into et Land.
Speaker 1: I didn't really know the answer. How did your experience
Speaker 1: with your mom, Sheila sort of affect how you parented
Speaker 1: your son? It was interesting. I my mother was dead
Speaker 1: before my son arrived, and UM, I felt somehow that
Speaker 1: this was my role in life, that I was somehow
Speaker 1: to be the caretaker of the wounded UM. Although David
Speaker 1: is certainly outgrown his true as at that particular point,
Speaker 1: from five till about ten, prepubescent, he had a very
Speaker 1: pretty severe case UM. But I felt as if I
Speaker 1: had gone from one caretaker to another caretaker. The difference
Speaker 1: was I always felt my mother had friends and adults
Speaker 1: and enough um help from the outside to leave me alone,
Speaker 1: Whereas I thought it was my role to take care
Speaker 1: of David lovingly and caringly, and it was the most
Speaker 1: important thing in my life. And I didn't feel I thought,
Speaker 1: this is irony, right, I'm going from my mother to
Speaker 1: my son as a caretaker. But in one case it
Speaker 1: was obligatory, and in the other case it was out
Speaker 1: of you know, just sheer love and passion and sorrow
Speaker 1: and wanting him to be better. So it was, but
Speaker 1: it was a very strange confluence of of you know,
Speaker 1: sort of like a cutout doll. I was like cut
Speaker 1: out for caretaking. But I'm not taking care of you now.
Speaker 1: I have to say, I think you're a beautiful writer.
Speaker 1: I love really and and you can see why because
Speaker 1: I think you're a beautiful speaker too. No, I really
Speaker 1: mean that, and I don't isn't it nice? So naturally,
Speaker 1: but if I close my eyes I can tell a story.
Speaker 1: If I keep them open, I have a hard time. Well,
Speaker 1: when we come back, I want to talk more, and
Speaker 1: I know Brian's interested in this as well, about really
Speaker 1: your legendary career supporting and making documentaries and um, what
Speaker 1: it's been like to be a woman in this business
Speaker 1: all these years, something I'm particularly interested in as well.
Speaker 1: So we'll be back with more from Shell and Evans
Speaker 1: right after this. We're back with Sheil and Evans, which
Speaker 1: is a real treat because you know, Sheila, you can
Speaker 1: be a sort of um modest and self effaced in
Speaker 1: as you want. But I think what what strikes people
Speaker 1: about this book is that you're writing about real stuff, right,
Speaker 1: So I think when things resonate with us and people
Speaker 1: can say, oh, I know what that feels like, or
Speaker 1: I can relate to that. When you were at the
Speaker 1: Literary Partner's dinner and you were talking about your facelift,
Speaker 1: you know, I was thinking, Ship, you know, I kind
Speaker 1: of need a facelift. I need to. I don't know
Speaker 1: what I ever do that. I you know, I'm feeling
Speaker 1: like I'm getting older and less attractive, and it's a
Speaker 1: hard thing to to go through the whole thing to do.
Speaker 1: It's better both sides of it. I was what the
Speaker 1: facelift aging in general? No aging, I can tell you crappy.
Speaker 1: But I would say that a facelift, I could say,
Speaker 1: if it makes you feel better, it's low risk, although
Speaker 1: it is risk. Ull surgery is risk. Do what if
Speaker 1: it makes you feel bit On the other hand, I
Speaker 1: would say it's a superficial, unnecessary thing. You haven't been
Speaker 1: hired as a rocket, you've been hired because you're bright
Speaker 1: and smart and make something happen, So just shut up
Speaker 1: and get old. So I I would say that there's
Speaker 1: there's two there are two people here, but I want
Speaker 1: to be a rocket. I'm just kuddy. I don't there
Speaker 1: are openings at the ARP. That would be sad. That
Speaker 1: sounds like a really bad made for TV movie. Yes, definitely,
Speaker 1: but but but it was so funny hearing you talk
Speaker 1: about it. I can't be I can't, I can't what
Speaker 1: can I say? I can't endorse it because I endorse
Speaker 1: it because I did it. I can't endorse it because
Speaker 1: I'm not so proud that I did it. But I'm
Speaker 1: proud that I could talk about it and say, you
Speaker 1: know what a fool I am. You know, it's it's ridiculous,
Speaker 1: ridiculous when you think about it. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: a plastic surgery was really invented after Hiroshima when the
Speaker 1: Maidens came, and they really not exactly invented, but it
Speaker 1: became a profession which was repairing wounded faces, war faces,
Speaker 1: you know, tortured faces from you know, napem and and
Speaker 1: bombs and burns and um from it emerged this vanity sphere,
Speaker 1: which you know, it seems to be getting going down
Speaker 1: to younger and younger people. Then came chemicals that could
Speaker 1: fill up holes, you know, botox, which was used for uh,
Speaker 1: you know, paralysis of certain ticks. Suddenly they thought, oh
Speaker 1: my god, not only does it stopped the tick, but
Speaker 1: it also make smooths out to wrinkle. So suddenly this
Speaker 1: whole industry, which I support readily and almost embarrassingly um emerged.
Speaker 1: But you know, I never said I was trying to
Speaker 1: think of an artful way of getting me out of this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's no sege. I was trying to think of an
Speaker 1: artful segue about sleeping with your bosses. But I don't
Speaker 1: know how I can go from You didn't read it
Speaker 1: very carefully. It was a boss okay. In an interview,
Speaker 1: you said, I don't know that I slept my way
Speaker 1: to the top, but I didn't not sleep with my
Speaker 1: bosses plural in the early days when they wanted me.
Speaker 1: And then the interviewer asked, and how is that different
Speaker 1: from sleeping your way at the top, if you slept
Speaker 1: with your bosses, this interview responded, there weren't that many.
Speaker 1: This was this was also in that CBS interview. Yeah, Jesus,
Speaker 1: she's really And so do you regret that or no?
Speaker 1: I don't regret. I don't regret anything. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: you know what, am I going to regret that I
Speaker 1: slept with my boss? Didn't mean anything to me. It
Speaker 1: obviously meant a lot to him. He promoted me, So
Speaker 1: you know I didn't demote him. I just paid no
Speaker 1: attention to him once he promoted me. So who lost
Speaker 1: him or me? But you talked about how you changed
Speaker 1: your view on this subject. I was interested very much
Speaker 1: by Glorious Dinham. But I'm not Glorious Dinham. I'm not
Speaker 1: as I'm much more superficial. But I actually didn't know
Speaker 1: there was another way. I really didn't know. I was pretty.
Speaker 1: I was young. I wanted to advance. All my bosses
Speaker 1: were men. All my bosses at the l Drama School
Speaker 1: there were nine or ten people in the directing program,
Speaker 1: one as a woman, um, and the rest of you're
Speaker 1: all men. All my teachers were men. I I all
Speaker 1: my jobs were men. I never you know, I didn't
Speaker 1: have a woman boss. I didn't. I didn't even know
Speaker 1: what that was. Um, I didn't know women could be bosses.
Speaker 1: Until I got to children's television workshop and worked for
Speaker 1: Joan Cooney. But I didn't know. I just didn't know.
Speaker 1: That's why this sort of lean forward, lean back, lean up.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that I was born at a time
Speaker 1: when you could lean forward. I think had I leaned forward,
Speaker 1: I would have toppled right over. So maybe I leaned back.
Speaker 1: But I mean, bosses, I mean, I'm trying to count.
Speaker 1: It's certainly maybe three more likely to I think three
Speaker 1: playing around too for real? Is that fair? I don't know. Anyway,
Speaker 1: you can talk about going from Helen Helen Gurley Brown
Speaker 1: to Gloria Steinham. So do you think today she left
Speaker 1: you were a young man trying to have a career,
Speaker 1: that that would have would ever cross your mind that, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, I'll do this if it's going to help me.
Speaker 1: I would like to say I wouldn't do it. I
Speaker 1: would like to be honest, but then again, I'm so honest. Um,
Speaker 1: I can't answer that because I'm not a young woman today.
Speaker 1: But I wanted to succeed badly. And if those were
Speaker 1: the shots that were called, and I knew beforehand they
Speaker 1: were the shots, I'm not talking about someone coming in
Speaker 1: your office, throwing you on the ground, and you know,
Speaker 1: fucking you, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about
Speaker 1: a complicit kind of understanding that this is the step ladder.
Speaker 1: And you know, I don't really know. I don't know
Speaker 1: not saying what you think. A woman sits in a
Speaker 1: room and doesn't talk, a woman talks and gets interrupted.
Speaker 1: Those are all forms of harassment, you know. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Do you think do you think things have changed a lot?
Speaker 1: Because I still see I don't think they've changed as
Speaker 1: much as we'd like to think they've changed. I don't.
Speaker 1: I simply don't think that, you know. I asked Gloria
Speaker 1: Steinham a couple of weeks ago, why are men so
Speaker 1: angry at us? What do we do wrong? And she
Speaker 1: she said, you have a womb, you know, And I thought, okay,
Speaker 1: well I'll think about that one for a while. You know.
Speaker 1: But um, look, there are exceptions. There are the good
Speaker 1: men that we occasionally are lucky enough to marry or
Speaker 1: no or even work for. But they're the exception. Um,
Speaker 1: most men are sexists. Most men are extremely competitive with
Speaker 1: women who are ambitious and not necessarily kind. It's very strange.
Speaker 1: I really don't know what it is. Do you think
Speaker 1: some men are sexists and don't don't really realize that
Speaker 1: they're sexists? Sort of this sort of question without question
Speaker 1: implicit bias or subconscious by carry around with them in
Speaker 1: their backpacks. Yes, and probably starts with their mother. May
Speaker 1: have something to do with sons and mothers, raying away
Speaker 1: from that mother, of being angry at her because you're
Speaker 1: still dependent on her in some way, and then you
Speaker 1: take that into the workplace. I don't know. I'm not
Speaker 1: a psychiatrist, but it's certainly it's there you write about
Speaker 1: in your book at the moment in your career when
Speaker 1: you realize you're not being treated the same as your
Speaker 1: male colleagues. Lena Dunham read this, so let's take a listen.
Speaker 1: Somehow a male colleagues check had been put in my
Speaker 1: envelope with the same job title. I worked on even
Speaker 1: more shows per month than he did. The difference the
Speaker 1: amount on his check was twice mine. I steamed and
Speaker 1: fretted and realized who I was. I was a woman
Speaker 1: in the early seventies. Were men worth more? All of
Speaker 1: this made me cry. All of this made me angry.
Speaker 1: I wanted a life. I wanted my colleagues check. I
Speaker 1: wanted that male power. I wanted to be equal. I
Speaker 1: wanted to play ball in a man's ballpark. This is
Speaker 1: part of your feminist awakening. As you put it, you
Speaker 1: makes me mad just hearing it. Can you imagine opening
Speaker 1: that envelope? Oh yeah, yeah, I can. Do you know
Speaker 1: how crazy I was when I opened it? I mean
Speaker 1: I started screaming at the envelope. There was no one
Speaker 1: in my house at the time. I literally opened it.
Speaker 1: I saw his name on it, and I guess the
Speaker 1: two checks were stuck together, you know, because that was
Speaker 1: before there was a direct deposited, So it must have
Speaker 1: been that the paste from one envelope was stuck to
Speaker 1: the other because mine was right underneath it, so of
Speaker 1: course I could see mine and I could see his.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I knew exactly what mine was in
Speaker 1: relationships till I saw them laying right next to each other.
Speaker 1: I was beside myself, I mean beside myself and what happened.
Speaker 1: I tore his check up, and I um, I waited
Speaker 1: for the next clean moment. You know, everything is timing
Speaker 1: in life, really, unfortunately and fortunately, I guess if you
Speaker 1: have a good sense of it, and I, um, I
Speaker 1: waited till there was a kind of upheaval. And every job,
Speaker 1: every so often somebody gets toppled and somebody new comes in.
Speaker 1: And when that happened, I went to the new person
Speaker 1: and and said I want to earn more money. I
Speaker 1: deserve more money. And I got I didn't have to
Speaker 1: sleep with him, and he was too late. I wasn't
Speaker 1: the sleeping kind anymore, were you afraid? I mean that
Speaker 1: takes a lot of guts, because I had another offer,
Speaker 1: you see, I think that was the main thing, which
Speaker 1: is that I had. Ironically, because things move around in
Speaker 1: media so much, one of my ex bosses was in
Speaker 1: another company and he said, why don't you come over here?
Speaker 1: And that gave me the plus. The upheaval gave me
Speaker 1: the energy to say, well, if they don't do this,
Speaker 1: then I'm out of here. Um so I did it,
Speaker 1: But you know, I leaned forward instead of lying back.
Speaker 1: That should be my book lying back. When you think
Speaker 1: about last year's present financial campaign, do you think sexism
Speaker 1: played a big role in Hillary Clinton's defeat? Probably? Yeah, probably.
Speaker 1: I mean she may not have been the right candidate either.
Speaker 1: I don't know that. I'm not politically that astute. But um,
Speaker 1: certainly maybe from a black president to a woman president
Speaker 1: was not a possibility in this country. I don't know that,
Speaker 1: because you know, I voted for her, stood in line
Speaker 1: for two hours, so I can't really answer. Um. But
Speaker 1: the person in front of me on the line was
Speaker 1: voting for Trump, and he was a banker, a nice
Speaker 1: young kids standing a lone, and we got to know
Speaker 1: each other because the line was so long on it,
Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of around the blog. Did he
Speaker 1: say why he was voting for money? He said money.
Speaker 1: He wanted to earn more money. He wanted more money
Speaker 1: to flow into United States. He wanted there to be
Speaker 1: more jobs. He was in the import export banking. I
Speaker 1: really don't remember very much. Mostly we talked about movies,
Speaker 1: you know, and I tried to fix him up. But
Speaker 1: then I realized it was, you know, like twenty five.
Speaker 1: I didn't know anybody that age. So you're like, I am.
Speaker 1: I'm always trying to make it people are. In fact,
Speaker 1: I was thinking I should have a match making service.
Speaker 1: That's a good idea because so many people asked me
Speaker 1: to fix them up with people. But let me, let
Speaker 1: me get back to movies. Because you have spent your life,
Speaker 1: well much of your professional life. Sheila focused on on
Speaker 1: making and as I said, supporting great documentaries. What what
Speaker 1: makes a great documentary? When you're looking at all these
Speaker 1: now there's such a proliferation of them, Uh, what do
Speaker 1: you say, Like, is there a Is there a criteria?
Speaker 1: For me? There's a criteria. But that doesn't mean I
Speaker 1: don't work on other kinds of docums. I like, um
Speaker 1: people who emerge who you don't know when you start
Speaker 1: the document and at the end you feel as if
Speaker 1: they're in your living room forever. UM. I like docums
Speaker 1: about people who have a hard time getting up and
Speaker 1: through the process of revelation or self revelation in the docu,
Speaker 1: are able to stand again, and that's a metaphor. UM.
Speaker 1: I like wounded people who punch back. To me. That
Speaker 1: makes a great documentary, whether it's in a nook or
Speaker 1: salesman or you know, Harlan County or whatever. I like
Speaker 1: people who are underdogs. UM. I don't like docums particularly,
Speaker 1: I like to watch them. I don't like to work
Speaker 1: particularly on document about well known people or um celebrities
Speaker 1: in any particular field, although I do enjoy watching them.
Speaker 1: And I think they fall under the umbrella of docums.
Speaker 1: You're asking me how I define what is a pleasurable, satisfying,
Speaker 1: emotional work experience since it takes a big chunk out
Speaker 1: of your life, your work, if not your whole life. Um,
Speaker 1: I like the sort of resurrection of the common Man.
Speaker 1: That's my Oh, that's a good title. Nobody would read
Speaker 1: that book. I like that title too. What is there
Speaker 1: one that I know? I hate when people ask me, like,
Speaker 1: your favorite interview? But I mean, what would certainly be
Speaker 1: this one? But but but but what is your favorite documentary?
Speaker 1: Is there one that you think, Wow, if like the
Speaker 1: first sentence of my obituary, if it mentioned this documentary,
Speaker 1: my obituary is going to say, um, New York Times
Speaker 1: best selling author, because I was on the best seller
Speaker 1: list list week Muscle Muzzle, Muzzle one week in a lifetime.
Speaker 1: That's another good title. One week in a lifetime, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: But that's that that assumes you're only going to be
Speaker 1: on the list for one week and we're gonna be No.
Speaker 1: I think one week is fine. Um? What was I forgot?
Speaker 1: The question? Did you have one that can particularly resonated
Speaker 1: with you? Well? It's not mine. I love the documentary
Speaker 1: by Freedman and Epstein called The Life and Times of
Speaker 1: Harvey Milk because it was the beginning of the gay movement. Really,
Speaker 1: Harvey Milk was. And I thought it was an extraordinary
Speaker 1: documentary that it was killed for being gay? Really um
Speaker 1: in San Francisco, and I thought it was an extraordinarily
Speaker 1: interesting documentary. UM. And you said, you're more interested in
Speaker 1: telling ordinary people's stories over celebrities, And you had so
Speaker 1: many of the HBO documentaries that stick in my mind
Speaker 1: are about famous people, like what like which one? Well,
Speaker 1: the Jerry Wintrobe documentary or the Robert Durst documentary wasn't
Speaker 1: about Durst as much. It was a mystery. Wasn't really
Speaker 1: a celebrity? Do the kids stays in the picture? Was
Speaker 1: that an HBO bought it? And then the Snowden doc
Speaker 1: The Citizen Ford didn't you make that? Yeah, But you're
Speaker 1: using a different kind of word for celebrity. I also
Speaker 1: did Gloria Steinham. I don't consider that a celebrity doc.
Speaker 1: I consider that a movement doc with a celebrity person,
Speaker 1: you know, But Gloria can walk down the street and
Speaker 1: people won't know who she is. You know, Durst can
Speaker 1: steal a sandwich in a supermarket. And you know we're
Speaker 1: not talking about you know, famous Hollywood, famous person. I
Speaker 1: guess what I'm thinking of is is a well known
Speaker 1: person is an entry point to raising broader issues and
Speaker 1: telling a bigger story. But you'll notice that those documents
Speaker 1: are in the last i'd say five to seven years,
Speaker 1: as the market has become much more, much more crowded,
Speaker 1: and the marketing of something has become so incredibly expensive
Speaker 1: and difficult. So the more if you if you can
Speaker 1: get a semi celebrity to cut through the mass of
Speaker 1: stuff to tell a story, you're in You're in much
Speaker 1: better shape. But I still resist it. I mean, I
Speaker 1: still prefer living on the minimum wage, you know, I
Speaker 1: I still prefer that docum. I prefer a class divide
Speaker 1: about the Avenue School on one side and the Elliott
Speaker 1: Housing Project on the other. In the park in the
Speaker 1: middle where both kids play and try to make a basket. Well,
Speaker 1: the kids who can make the basket have been in
Speaker 1: the park much more than they've been in school, and
Speaker 1: the kids who are going to really make the basket
Speaker 1: are in the Avenue school. So the injustice of the
Speaker 1: one percent is a much more interesting film for me
Speaker 1: to make than a celebrity document although I would argue
Speaker 1: that some of those are acquisitions and not things that
Speaker 1: we make from scratch, and there's a difference. And I
Speaker 1: was going to ask you about that, sheield, because that's
Speaker 1: why I kept saying that the documentaries that you produce
Speaker 1: and also support, because in some cases you you buy
Speaker 1: other people's documentaries. And when you do that, do you
Speaker 1: then put your impromontre on it or imper mater I
Speaker 1: never know, But do do you say I'd like to
Speaker 1: buy this and now I'd like to change it? Or
Speaker 1: do you buy it and sort of let it exist?
Speaker 1: As it was? Mostly what we buy, we leave because
Speaker 1: it was good enough to buy, and to lose the
Speaker 1: opportunity to create, then it has to be pretty good
Speaker 1: to begin with. Um. But you know, sometimes the producer
Speaker 1: wants different music, or would like to do it a
Speaker 1: different way, or want some feedback from someone who's experienced right,
Speaker 1: or you know, and sometimes you don't touch anything. We
Speaker 1: didn't touch Citizen four. I mean we learned from Citizen four.
Speaker 1: I learned from Laura all the time. I learned from
Speaker 1: Laura even when they're not our docues. I mean, you
Speaker 1: know she's a teacher. What did you learn from her?
Speaker 1: To be a master's storyteller first and to be politically
Speaker 1: so committed that you make a film that comes from
Speaker 1: your gut, not just another film. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: she's extraordinary filmmaker. A listener called in with the question
Speaker 1: for you about the business of documentary filmmaking, and let's
Speaker 1: listen to him. Hey, this is Kevin from California. I'm
Speaker 1: an independent documentary filmmaker and this question is for Sheila.
Speaker 1: As we know, the media industry is changing fast. For example,
Speaker 1: online we've got social media consumers expect content for free content.
Speaker 1: Creators can now reach their audiences directly, and of course,
Speaker 1: with the constant barrage of political news coming from the
Speaker 1: Trump White House, it seems that any other news stories
Speaker 1: and documentary stories just get drowned out. So my question is,
Speaker 1: what do you think the business models of documentary storytelling
Speaker 1: will be in the future. Thanks in the future, in
Speaker 1: the present. I can't predict the future. I'd love to,
Speaker 1: but I think that the strange thing happened. We did
Speaker 1: a film called Mommy Dead and Dearest with Aaron Carr
Speaker 1: and it's about Munchausen by proxy and this woman who
Speaker 1: tortures her child, and the child eventually kills the mother
Speaker 1: with someone she meets on the internet. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's rating really high. We had no marketing. It invaded
Speaker 1: social media in a way that was unknown to us. Uh,
Speaker 1: it got picked up, it became a contagion. It maybe
Speaker 1: because it wasn't about today, maybe because it wasn't about politics,
Speaker 1: maybe because it was a human story. I don't really
Speaker 1: know the answer to your question, except that somehow you
Speaker 1: have to cut through everything and say, how can I
Speaker 1: be different? You know, how can I tell a story
Speaker 1: that his heart that nudges the world, that moves it
Speaker 1: a little bit forward, um without being you know, too
Speaker 1: proud about that, but you know, something that has good
Speaker 1: value for humankind, because God knows we need those stories.
Speaker 1: How has Netflix changed? I mean, Netflix is you know,
Speaker 1: you could say it's a competitor. On the other hand,
Speaker 1: it's an inspirer. It inspires you to find something that's going.
Speaker 1: I can't buy what Netflix can buy. Don't have the
Speaker 1: the ability to build a library in the way that
Speaker 1: they have made this great reputation, and rightfully so. On
Speaker 1: a library. I have to get them that month to
Speaker 1: pay that bill. So it's very different the search for
Speaker 1: what will be stimulating a live hot on fire win Awards. Um,
Speaker 1: it's a different it's a different business. Um. But it's
Speaker 1: a tough. It's tough, you know. I was going through
Speaker 1: Netflix this weekend because I was looking for I Am
Speaker 1: Not Your Negro, which I haven't seen that great document
Speaker 1: and um and and my husband and I were going
Speaker 1: through all the documentaries on Netflix and we're like, we
Speaker 1: had never heard of probably seven eighths of those documentaries,
Speaker 1: and we said, it's it's almost it's almost heartbreaking because
Speaker 1: I know what goes into putting together a documentary. It's
Speaker 1: years and blood, sweat and tears of people's lives. Well,
Speaker 1: if you put it on HBO, you'll know it's on. No,
Speaker 1: you will, because I mean, we don't have the quantity
Speaker 1: and certainly they have quality as well as we do.
Speaker 1: But we we we really push the title. But you
Speaker 1: worry about the documentary, honey, I worry about the rain
Speaker 1: on a sunny day, about the blood of the documentary.
Speaker 1: Of course I do. But in a sense, it's challenging
Speaker 1: because you can do something that cuts through cheez you
Speaker 1: must be good, right. Um, In a sense, there's a
Speaker 1: gift that comes with not being able to buy quantity.
Speaker 1: You know. I always remember when I was little, had
Speaker 1: two dresses. Now I have like nine and never know
Speaker 1: what to wear. I never had a problem knowing what
Speaker 1: to wear because I only had two choices. So I
Speaker 1: think you become more select when you were selective, I
Speaker 1: should say, when you can only choose a limited number
Speaker 1: of things. When you're not building a library, you're building
Speaker 1: a monthly service that people want to subscribe to, and
Speaker 1: you know I want to, you know have So it's different,
Speaker 1: different business. It's interesting. I want to bring this conversation
Speaker 1: full circle and just get back to the book one
Speaker 1: more time, because we really want you to be Sheil
Speaker 1: on the New York Times bestseller list more than just
Speaker 1: one week. Um, did I go to that copy for free? Year?
Speaker 1: Did you buy it? No? I I actually got it
Speaker 1: in a gift bag from Literary Literacy Partners. Wasn't that
Speaker 1: all full of six people got a book for free?
Speaker 1: I know I was. I always try to get on
Speaker 1: by John. Where did you get yours from? I got
Speaker 1: mine from Amazon? Oh? How touching? So getting back to
Speaker 1: your life story, Sheila. Do you you don't really regret
Speaker 1: writing this? I don't regret know what to regret what
Speaker 1: someone said I was older, fat, or stupid? Maybe I am.
Speaker 1: I don't. But if you knew then what you know
Speaker 1: now about the processing book all over again? Absolutely the
Speaker 1: same book, with the same characters hiding behind trees, the
Speaker 1: same characters coming up front. I think I would have
Speaker 1: punctuated a few things a little better. And you know,
Speaker 1: I wish I could change a few sentences around. But no,
Speaker 1: I no regrets. I'm pretty proud of it. How did
Speaker 1: I do it? I had a full time job, life,
Speaker 1: you know whatever I mean, how did I do it?
Speaker 1: I don't really know. Did you feel did you feel
Speaker 1: like you learned about yourself in the process? I mean,
Speaker 1: in other words, that's a very good question. Yes, I
Speaker 1: felt that I learned. I was ashamed of nothing, that
Speaker 1: I had done, nothing that really embarrassed me. That's a
Speaker 1: good feeling, Not a facelift, not sleeping with a boss,
Speaker 1: not anything. You know, when I said to my son,
Speaker 1: I want to write about Tourette's and I want to
Speaker 1: write about you, is it okay? And he said, yeah,
Speaker 1: if it's truthful. And when I read the poem to
Speaker 1: a very old boyfriend, the anti Semitic poem about what
Speaker 1: his mother had said to me, he said, it's true.
Speaker 1: And I was a coward. So how can I regret anything?
Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't tell any lies, So why would
Speaker 1: I regret I hid behind a few trees, but I
Speaker 1: didn't tell any lies. Well, I was very honored to
Speaker 1: be able to read one of the essays. And since
Speaker 1: this is since this is my damn podcast, we're gonna
Speaker 1: we're gonna and Brian sorry, but humor me, We're gonna
Speaker 1: play a little bit of what I read because it
Speaker 1: was so much fun. So this was really about well,
Speaker 1: Sheila set up this essay. It's about technology and kind
Speaker 1: of it's about being alone on a red eye and
Speaker 1: realizing you're the only one with a hardcover book. And
Speaker 1: Katie took that part. I've been there, let's listen. So
Speaker 1: there I was, in the midst of this now age
Speaker 1: flight reading a hardcover book. It dated me, like saying
Speaker 1: record when you mean MP three or telephone when you
Speaker 1: mean cell, but I didn't care. Suddenly, a strange thing
Speaker 1: occurred in the midst of a rather disturbing turbulent bump
Speaker 1: my heartcover books eyes opened. I didn't know until that
Speaker 1: very moment that books had eyes. Suddenly tears rolled down
Speaker 1: the book's cover, and the book spoke. I'm over, said,
Speaker 1: sobbing done for everything is digital, I'm black and white.
Speaker 1: I'm old fashioned print. That was so much fun and
Speaker 1: I love the music method acting. By the way, my husband,
Speaker 1: he's going to make so much fun of me because
Speaker 1: he says I'm so pretentious because I say rather rather
Speaker 1: than rather. But I don't know, Bryan, do you say
Speaker 1: rather or rather? I do too, and I blame you
Speaker 1: for that. Actually, my whole family blames you for that
Speaker 1: because they claimed that before I met you, I said rather. Yeah,
Speaker 1: now I say rather, and I don't even think of
Speaker 1: do you say aunt or aunt? I say I say aunt,
Speaker 1: I say aunt? I do? I do assure me with
Speaker 1: everything else, this woman needs help. I need professionals, professional help. Well,
Speaker 1: I was thrilled to be one of the readers of
Speaker 1: your wonderful essays, and she'll I'm really happy you wrote
Speaker 1: this book, and I loved reading it, and I loved
Speaker 1: talking to you about it, and I love talking to
Speaker 1: you about it, and I loved you reading it. When
Speaker 1: you left, everybody said she's quite an actress. Really took
Speaker 1: the book to heart, Philip, Thank you, Thank you, Thanks
Speaker 1: as always to our producer Gianna Palmer and to our
Speaker 1: intrepid sound engineer Jared O'Connell. Thanks also to social media
Speaker 1: guru Alison Bresnik and to Emily Beina for her part
Speaker 1: in producing the show. Thanks as well to our engineer
Speaker 1: Ryan in Los Angeles, and to Nora Richie for her
Speaker 1: additional editorial assistance. Brian, I have to interrupt because you're
Speaker 1: sounding particularly racipe today. Brian has a little bit of
Speaker 1: a cold, so that's why he sounds like a male
Speaker 1: Brenda for Carro. Right now, I would like to thank
Speaker 1: Mark Phillips for our theme music and also plug Alert.
Speaker 1: Mark makes music under the artist named Sono Otto. His
Speaker 1: new full length album is called Inheritance and it's out now,
Speaker 1: which reminds me. I don't think I sang during this podcast, Brian,
Speaker 1: and if I knew, can you think of Inheritance? I
Speaker 1: have no idea anyway. That was beautiful. Thank you. Katie
Speaker 1: Kirk and I are the executive producers of this podcast,
Speaker 1: and if you'd like to get in touch you can
Speaker 1: leave us a voicemail at nine to nine two two
Speaker 1: four four six three seven, and don't forget to call
Speaker 1: in with your questions from Matt Walsh. You can also
Speaker 1: email us at comments at correct podcast dot com. You
Speaker 1: can find me on social media at Katie Couric on
Speaker 1: Twitter and Instagram, Katie dot Curric on Snapchat, and Brian
Speaker 1: is goldsmith be on Twitter. You definitely should follow Brian
Speaker 1: because he's a lot more opinionated than I am. And hey,
Speaker 1: if you like our show, please let the world know
Speaker 1: by rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcasts, and don't
Speaker 1: forget to subscribe as well. Thank you so much for listening, Brian,
Speaker 1: tell our nice listeners goodbye, Asta luego a revoir. Talk
Speaker 1: to you next time.