1 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: All my bosses were men. I didn't know women could 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: be bosses. I just didn't know. That's why this would 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: have leaned forward, leaned back, lean up. I'm not sure 4 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: that I was born at a time when you could 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: lean forward. I think had I leaned forward, I would 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 1: have toppled right over. That was Shela Evans, the president 7 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: of HBO Documentary Films, No surprise. That was the world 8 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: she became accustomed to when she set out to make 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: a name for herself in the nineteen sixties. Brian, you 10 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: know how my business cards say badass. I think Sheila 11 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: nevans business card should say f O n Force of Nature. 12 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: She is quite a character, isn't she. She's amazing and 13 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: as you said, not just a great writer, but a 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: really interesting, insightful, soulful talker, one of the best I'd 15 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: ever heard. Sheila came by to talk about a book 16 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,119 Speaker 1: she's written, really a book of essays about her life 17 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: called You Don't Look Your Age and Other fairy Tales. 18 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: And I think that title is very emblematic of the 19 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: tone of this book, Brian, because it's sort of a 20 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: funny romp through her personal and professional life. And she 21 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: has had such an interesting life, much of it spent 22 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: doing documentaries. And I know you love documentaries as much 23 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: as I do, Brian. Yeah, And I don't even have 24 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: time to watch half the documentaries that are coming out 25 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: these days. There's such a glood of them. But when 26 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: I think about the best documentaries, I often think about 27 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: what's on HBO, like Going Clear about Scientology or the 28 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: Jinks in which Robert just basically confessed to multiple murders 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: on film. I mean, it was just unbelievable. Citizen for 30 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: about Edward Snowdon. So it was great to hear from 31 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: her about her perspective on that business and about the 32 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: lessons that she's learned over the course of her of 33 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: her long like she's seventy eight years old, and I think, 34 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: in many ways is a microcosm of the feminist movement, 35 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: and her stories are so I think, intensely personal and 36 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: really reflect the times uh that she was living in 37 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: and that we continue to live in, and painfully honest 38 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,239 Speaker 1: by the way she talks about getting an illegal abortion, 39 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: she talks about having a facelift, she talks about how 40 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: her mother doesn't really love her, she talks about her 41 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: handicapped son, She she touches so many hot buttons and 42 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: a lot of topics that I think most writers avoid. 43 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: We've talked to so many fascinating people, Brian, but I 44 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: think this is one of my favorites. So I hope 45 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: you all enjoy hearing from Sheila Nevin's as much as 46 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: we enjoyed talking to her. Sheila, what has it been 47 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: like for you to share really very intensely personal stories 48 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: with a mass audience of people who don't really know 49 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: you and don't necessarily know your history or anything about you. 50 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: Has it been weird? It's been um very strange to 51 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: be public, because I've dealt my whole life with people 52 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: who are public or stories that are public, but I've 53 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: never really been public. Not that I'm public that you know, 54 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 1: I can film medicine, square Garden, don't get me wrong, 55 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: but it's really odd. It's very odd to sort of 56 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: be anonymously personal or personal anonymously, and I'm not sure 57 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: I enjoy it. It makes me think, in a very 58 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: small way, what celebrity must be like. Not that I 59 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: am a celebrity, but how incredibly the encroachment of the 60 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: lack of oxygen when you're just trying to sell a book. 61 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: You know, who wants to talk? I don't want to talking. 62 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: It's not something I would repeat. I really no, I 63 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: would never do it again. Really, And what what it been? Well, 64 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: first of all, I don't have any other stories left. 65 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: I told them all. And second of all, I in 66 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: joy anonimity. I didn't know I enjoyed it, um, but 67 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: I didn't have it until well, I don't I actually 68 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: have it. I mean, I can go to the supermarket, 69 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: it's okay. But what I mean is it I don't 70 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: enjoy the tiny little bit of celebrity that a book brings. 71 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: I don't enjoy it. I don't enjoy it. I'm surprised 72 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: by it. And you know, it's so late in my 73 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: life that I would have that. But it's I see 74 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: why I have hid from it for so long. And 75 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: so if you didn't want attention and you didn't want recognition, 76 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: what motivated you to to write this? I'm told stories, 77 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, I think I I said in the beginning, 78 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: I had spent so much of my life, or have 79 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: spent so much of my life asking people their stories 80 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: that I thought it was time to write mine. But 81 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's totally accurate. I think it was 82 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 1: like there were things that I had experienced, things that 83 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: I knew, things that I I you know, that I 84 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: hadn't told, things that I wanted to talk about. And 85 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: I thought it seemed like one of the steps want 86 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: to take on the way to eternity. And I thought, 87 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: what the hell, I'll write a book. What was the hardest? 88 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: You know? I mean, I really loved your unflinching honesty, 89 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: whether you're talking about sort of quiet moments that are 90 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: shared experience but never discussed, or talking about your decision 91 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: to get a facelift with such humor and candor and 92 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: something that women are never usually willing to talk about. Um. 93 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: But when when you sat down in front of your computer, 94 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: Sheila and said, I'm going to write a chapter on blank, 95 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: what was the hardest blank you had to tackle? Nothing 96 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: was hard? Nothing nothing was hard because I've heard so 97 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: many people tell me their stories for so long that 98 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: I think I I was, you know, it's sort of 99 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: like bursting at the seems to tell it. No, nothing 100 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: was hard. If it had been hard, I probably wouldn't 101 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: have written it. Um. It was easy to say what 102 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 1: was true, and it was easy to say what I 103 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: was thinking, and I didn't really care about judgment. I've 104 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: been around too long. What I didn't expect was personal judgment. 105 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: You know, I expect to feel like it, they won't 106 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: like it. I didn't think someone's gonna say, well, you 107 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: are fat, or they would say, um, you look your age, 108 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: or I would get these these horrible you know Instagram 109 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: Twitter responses that were like attacks. I didn't know. I 110 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: didn't expect that. Welcome to my world. Oh it's horrible. 111 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: How do you tolerate it? I block a lot of them? Yeah, 112 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: and uh, it is, actually, sweetheart, it's so psychically depleting, 113 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: depleting and really hard. It is hard. It is hard, 114 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: and you're like wow. And also, why would someone say 115 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: something like why did they care enough to say I 116 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: read two pages and I was so bored, don't waste 117 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: your money? Why would they say that? First of all, 118 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: the first two pages, I probably would have closed the 119 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: book too, But give the book a shot, you know, 120 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: And then they're a lot, you know, keep it to yourself, 121 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: and it's just you feel because I think it's easier 122 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: to criticize than it is to congratulate anonymously, and that's 123 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: what social media gives you anonymity, and I think that 124 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: anonymity allows the devil to come out in some way. UM, 125 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: because I don't think those people would face me and 126 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: say those things. It's very disturbing, But most of the 127 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: stuff is very favorable. I'm just the kind of person 128 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,679 Speaker 1: who remembers the stuff that isn't favorable. That's my treasure 129 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: drove of punches. I like those. I stepping back a 130 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: little bit. I'm sorry to interrupt. You go ahead, and 131 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: one always interrupts me. I never stopped talking. So can 132 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: we back up for a second and talk a little 133 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: bit about your about your personal story for people who 134 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: don't have the context. One of the major facts of 135 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: your life is that your mother suffered from this disease 136 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: which I had never heard of before, called ray nodes, 137 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: which affects circulation, and ultimately she had a leg and 138 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: arm and three fingers amputated. How did that affect your 139 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: childhood and your perception of yourself growing up? Well, these 140 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: things were gradual, So it started with fingers, and you know, 141 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: so I would have all sorts of I always have 142 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: manicures to this day. Um. If I chip a nail, 143 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: I get very anxious. Um. But it started with fingers, 144 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: So I've always had a finger thing. I've always been 145 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: able to look at people's hands and see how tired 146 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: they are, you know, see if they're chipped. Let me 147 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: see your fingers. Yeah you're tired. Did you cut your 148 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: finger on that? Hid? I actually bit my cuticle off, 149 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: and I bite my nails. You do, yeah? You know, 150 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: I feel like it's so interesting. Well, can I just say, 151 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: Sheila dear listeners has beautiful hands and perfectly manicured fingernails, 152 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: And you know, I feel like nobody looks at people's hands. 153 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: I look at hands all the time because my mother didn't. 154 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: Because the first thing I experienced was, you know, the 155 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: tip of her finger coming off. It would get black 156 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 1: and it would really smell badly and it would literally 157 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: chip off and it wouldn't ever get that couldn't heal 158 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: because there was no circulation. It's a disease of circulation 159 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: in your extremities and it starts to you know, it's 160 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: kind of a circulatory leprosy in its most severe cases, 161 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: but it depends how serious. And obviously hers was very 162 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: serim serious and um from about the time I was 163 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: ten of eleven, she started having smaller amputations, you know, 164 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: the tip of a finger, and I was very embarrassed 165 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: about it because you know, there was like that nobby 166 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: end of a finger and I always hate to remember 167 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: that took her hand at, you know, hand out, or 168 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: took it out of gloves, and then it was another finger, 169 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: and then you know it was it just kept going. 170 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,959 Speaker 1: It was like it was just horrifying you. I want 171 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: to interrupt for two seconds, because, um, you have a 172 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: whole constellation of people who for the audio version of 173 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: this book, she'lla read your essays, and I was very 174 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:59,559 Speaker 1: flattered to be among them. But Meryl, Meryl reads an 175 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: essay that your mom, let's play it. Our sandwiches came 176 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: and the perfect coffee, hot on a hot day, but 177 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: perfectly so. Mom rested her stump on the counter. Her 178 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: shortened arm was heavy to lift and too short to 179 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: hide below the counter. Suddenly, from the other side of 180 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: the s shaped counter, a middle aged woman with a 181 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:31,439 Speaker 1: kinky permed bob and harlequined glasses, who was fanning herself 182 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: with a newspaper, yelled out, please, ladies, I'm eating. It's 183 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: rude to expose that arm. It makes me want to 184 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: throw up. That's what she said. Do you remember how 185 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: you felt when that happened. You know, the thing about 186 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: someone is brilliant and genius in one of a kind, 187 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: as Meryl Streep is it. She sounded like my mother 188 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: when she read it, and it was, you know, not 189 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: a woo woo kind of person. But I have to 190 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: say it freaked me out when she read it because 191 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: I wrote it without crying. I rewrote it many times 192 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: without crying, but when Meryl Street read it, I cried. 193 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: It was something in the way that she read it 194 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: that she sounded like my mother. She just sounded like it. 195 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: And I felt that I was in chock full of 196 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: nuts and that I was They're all over again. And 197 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: I guess that's the genius of great acting, which is 198 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: that you immerse yourself and roll so much. But I 199 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: was almost afraid to say goodbye to her after the 200 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: record session was over, because I felt that we were 201 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,839 Speaker 1: very intimately engaged, and yet I don't really know her 202 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: that well. So it's a very strange experience. But I 203 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: do remember that it was so many years ago, but 204 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: I remember being terrified that the woman would beat me 205 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: up or hurt me, which was a very I think 206 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: in retrospect a sort of a normal reaction, because she 207 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: was so hostile and the arm was such an affront 208 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: to her that I felt that she was going to 209 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: hurt us, hurt me, not that I hadn't already been 210 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: hurt by the amputation itself. But um, I remember it, 211 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: you know, I remember it, especially when I hear that 212 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: little clip. I remember it. And yet you know it 213 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,079 Speaker 1: sounds like obviously it was very upsetting for you, but 214 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: it did you feel protective of your mom in that instance? 215 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: Because I think that no, I felt ashamed ashamed. I 216 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: felt ashamed, and I have spent a lot of time 217 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: thinking about that in my life, which has been a 218 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:30,479 Speaker 1: long one, which is, um, why was I ashamed of disability? 219 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: Maybe disability brings with it its own in addition to 220 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: the imperfection of not having a particular limb or having 221 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: some imperfection, it also brings a kind of embarrassment and 222 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: not being like other people. And I hate that feeling. 223 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: I hate that feeling of, you know, of of being 224 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 1: ashamed of a disability rather than proud that you're surviving 225 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: with that disability. And so I think that I have 226 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: worked very hard to be proud of difference and to 227 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: assert difference, especially in docues, as something that is something 228 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: to be to feel very strongly about that. To be 229 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,319 Speaker 1: like everybody else is not always the best thing in 230 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: the world. And to survive and affliction is probably one 231 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 1: of the great things of the world. And to say 232 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: this is me. I don't have an arm you know, 233 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: this is me. You know I have an illness. This 234 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: is me. You know I can't see you, but I 235 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: can feel your presence. I think those are very important 236 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: stories to tell, um, because everybody has a disability somewhere. 237 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 1: Certainly the woman with the harlequin glasses was much more 238 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: disabled than my mother as a human being, which I 239 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: guess is the greatest disability at all. So you know, 240 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: I do remember it and it influences me. It's interesting 241 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: because your son Um had Tourette's um and you you 242 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: write about that and his his childhood struggle. Rosie o'donnald 243 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: read this essay in the audio book. So let's listen 244 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: to that and then we'll talk about it. Sheila, why 245 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: does my do you do what I don't want it 246 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: to do? He asked, So came the useless explanations that 247 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: I deemed suitable for a now seven year old boy. 248 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: A body sometimes misses up David. You know, then it 249 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: gets better and the body's brain can be very, very 250 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: very smart, or so I hoped that Jumble would explain it. 251 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: You see, sometimes the body mixes up messages like getting 252 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: the wrong male. You're not make it sense, Mom, I 253 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: wasn't making sense. I was there alone into et Land. 254 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: I didn't really know the answer. How did your experience 255 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: with your mom, Sheila sort of affect how you parented 256 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: your son? It was interesting. I my mother was dead 257 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: before my son arrived, and UM, I felt somehow that 258 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: this was my role in life, that I was somehow 259 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: to be the caretaker of the wounded UM. Although David 260 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: is certainly outgrown his true as at that particular point, 261 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: from five till about ten, prepubescent, he had a very 262 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: pretty severe case UM. But I felt as if I 263 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: had gone from one caretaker to another caretaker. The difference 264 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: was I always felt my mother had friends and adults 265 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: and enough um help from the outside to leave me alone, 266 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: Whereas I thought it was my role to take care 267 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: of David lovingly and caringly, and it was the most 268 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: important thing in my life. And I didn't feel I thought, 269 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: this is irony, right, I'm going from my mother to 270 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: my son as a caretaker. But in one case it 271 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: was obligatory, and in the other case it was out 272 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: of you know, just sheer love and passion and sorrow 273 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: and wanting him to be better. So it was, but 274 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: it was a very strange confluence of of you know, 275 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: sort of like a cutout doll. I was like cut 276 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: out for caretaking. But I'm not taking care of you now. 277 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: I have to say, I think you're a beautiful writer. 278 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: I love really and and you can see why because 279 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: I think you're a beautiful speaker too. No, I really 280 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: mean that, and I don't isn't it nice? So naturally, 281 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: but if I close my eyes I can tell a story. 282 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: If I keep them open, I have a hard time. Well, 283 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: when we come back, I want to talk more, and 284 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: I know Brian's interested in this as well, about really 285 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: your legendary career supporting and making documentaries and um, what 286 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: it's been like to be a woman in this business 287 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: all these years, something I'm particularly interested in as well. 288 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: So we'll be back with more from Shell and Evans 289 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: right after this. We're back with Sheil and Evans, which 290 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: is a real treat because you know, Sheila, you can 291 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 1: be a sort of um modest and self effaced in 292 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: as you want. But I think what what strikes people 293 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: about this book is that you're writing about real stuff, right, 294 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: So I think when things resonate with us and people 295 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: can say, oh, I know what that feels like, or 296 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 1: I can relate to that. When you were at the 297 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: Literary Partner's dinner and you were talking about your facelift, 298 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: you know, I was thinking, Ship, you know, I kind 299 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: of need a facelift. I need to. I don't know 300 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 1: what I ever do that. I you know, I'm feeling 301 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: like I'm getting older and less attractive, and it's a 302 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: hard thing to to go through the whole thing to do. 303 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 1: It's better both sides of it. I was what the 304 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: facelift aging in general? No aging, I can tell you crappy. 305 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: But I would say that a facelift, I could say, 306 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: if it makes you feel better, it's low risk, although 307 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 1: it is risk. Ull surgery is risk. Do what if 308 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: it makes you feel bit On the other hand, I 309 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: would say it's a superficial, unnecessary thing. You haven't been 310 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: hired as a rocket, you've been hired because you're bright 311 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: and smart and make something happen, So just shut up 312 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: and get old. So I I would say that there's 313 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: there's two there are two people here, but I want 314 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: to be a rocket. I'm just kuddy. I don't there 315 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: are openings at the ARP. That would be sad. That 316 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 1: sounds like a really bad made for TV movie. Yes, definitely, 317 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: but but but it was so funny hearing you talk 318 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: about it. I can't be I can't, I can't what 319 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: can I say? I can't endorse it because I endorse 320 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: it because I did it. I can't endorse it because 321 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: I'm not so proud that I did it. But I'm 322 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 1: proud that I could talk about it and say, you 323 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: know what a fool I am. You know, it's it's ridiculous, 324 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: ridiculous when you think about it. I mean, you know, 325 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: a plastic surgery was really invented after Hiroshima when the 326 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: Maidens came, and they really not exactly invented, but it 327 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 1: became a profession which was repairing wounded faces, war faces, 328 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: you know, tortured faces from you know, napem and and 329 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: bombs and burns and um from it emerged this vanity sphere, 330 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: which you know, it seems to be getting going down 331 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: to younger and younger people. Then came chemicals that could 332 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 1: fill up holes, you know, botox, which was used for uh, 333 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: you know, paralysis of certain ticks. Suddenly they thought, oh 334 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: my god, not only does it stopped the tick, but 335 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: it also make smooths out to wrinkle. So suddenly this 336 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: whole industry, which I support readily and almost embarrassingly um emerged. 337 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: But you know, I never said I was trying to 338 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: think of an artful way of getting me out of this. Yeah, 339 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: there's no sege. I was trying to think of an 340 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: artful segue about sleeping with your bosses. But I don't 341 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 1: know how I can go from You didn't read it 342 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: very carefully. It was a boss okay. In an interview, 343 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: you said, I don't know that I slept my way 344 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: to the top, but I didn't not sleep with my 345 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: bosses plural in the early days when they wanted me. 346 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: And then the interviewer asked, and how is that different 347 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: from sleeping your way at the top, if you slept 348 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: with your bosses, this interview responded, there weren't that many. 349 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: This was this was also in that CBS interview. Yeah, Jesus, 350 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: she's really And so do you regret that or no? 351 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: I don't regret. I don't regret anything. I mean, I'm 352 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: you know what, am I going to regret that I 353 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: slept with my boss? Didn't mean anything to me. It 354 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: obviously meant a lot to him. He promoted me, So 355 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: you know I didn't demote him. I just paid no 356 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: attention to him once he promoted me. So who lost 357 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: him or me? But you talked about how you changed 358 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 1: your view on this subject. I was interested very much 359 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: by Glorious Dinham. But I'm not Glorious Dinham. I'm not 360 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: as I'm much more superficial. But I actually didn't know 361 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: there was another way. I really didn't know. I was pretty. 362 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: I was young. I wanted to advance. All my bosses 363 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: were men. All my bosses at the l Drama School 364 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: there were nine or ten people in the directing program, 365 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: one as a woman, um, and the rest of you're 366 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: all men. All my teachers were men. I I all 367 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: my jobs were men. I never you know, I didn't 368 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: have a woman boss. I didn't. I didn't even know 369 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: what that was. Um, I didn't know women could be bosses. 370 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: Until I got to children's television workshop and worked for 371 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: Joan Cooney. But I didn't know. I just didn't know. 372 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 1: That's why this sort of lean forward, lean back, lean up. 373 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that I was born at a time 374 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: when you could lean forward. I think had I leaned forward, 375 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: I would have toppled right over. So maybe I leaned back. 376 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 1: But I mean, bosses, I mean, I'm trying to count. 377 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: It's certainly maybe three more likely to I think three 378 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: playing around too for real? Is that fair? I don't know. Anyway, 379 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: you can talk about going from Helen Helen Gurley Brown 380 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: to Gloria Steinham. So do you think today she left 381 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: you were a young man trying to have a career, 382 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: that that would have would ever cross your mind that, hey, 383 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: you know, I'll do this if it's going to help me. 384 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: I would like to say I wouldn't do it. I 385 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 1: would like to be honest, but then again, I'm so honest. Um, 386 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: I can't answer that because I'm not a young woman today. 387 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,239 Speaker 1: But I wanted to succeed badly. And if those were 388 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: the shots that were called, and I knew beforehand they 389 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: were the shots, I'm not talking about someone coming in 390 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: your office, throwing you on the ground, and you know, 391 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 1: fucking you, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about 392 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:39,199 Speaker 1: a complicit kind of understanding that this is the step ladder. 393 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: And you know, I don't really know. I don't know 394 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: not saying what you think. A woman sits in a 395 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: room and doesn't talk, a woman talks and gets interrupted. 396 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: Those are all forms of harassment, you know. I don't know. 397 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: Do you think do you think things have changed a lot? 398 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: Because I still see I don't think they've changed as 399 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: much as we'd like to think they've changed. I don't. 400 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: I simply don't think that, you know. I asked Gloria 401 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: Steinham a couple of weeks ago, why are men so 402 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: angry at us? What do we do wrong? And she 403 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: she said, you have a womb, you know, And I thought, okay, 404 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: well I'll think about that one for a while. You know. 405 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: But um, look, there are exceptions. There are the good 406 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: men that we occasionally are lucky enough to marry or 407 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: no or even work for. But they're the exception. Um, 408 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: most men are sexists. Most men are extremely competitive with 409 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 1: women who are ambitious and not necessarily kind. It's very strange. 410 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: I really don't know what it is. Do you think 411 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: some men are sexists and don't don't really realize that 412 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: they're sexists? Sort of this sort of question without question 413 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: implicit bias or subconscious by carry around with them in 414 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: their backpacks. Yes, and probably starts with their mother. May 415 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: have something to do with sons and mothers, raying away 416 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 1: from that mother, of being angry at her because you're 417 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: still dependent on her in some way, and then you 418 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: take that into the workplace. I don't know. I'm not 419 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: a psychiatrist, but it's certainly it's there you write about 420 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 1: in your book at the moment in your career when 421 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,959 Speaker 1: you realize you're not being treated the same as your 422 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: male colleagues. Lena Dunham read this, so let's take a listen. 423 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: Somehow a male colleagues check had been put in my 424 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: envelope with the same job title. I worked on even 425 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: more shows per month than he did. The difference the 426 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: amount on his check was twice mine. I steamed and 427 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: fretted and realized who I was. I was a woman 428 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: in the early seventies. Were men worth more? All of 429 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: this made me cry. All of this made me angry. 430 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: I wanted a life. I wanted my colleagues check. I 431 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: wanted that male power. I wanted to be equal. I 432 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: wanted to play ball in a man's ballpark. This is 433 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: part of your feminist awakening. As you put it, you 434 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: makes me mad just hearing it. Can you imagine opening 435 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: that envelope? Oh yeah, yeah, I can. Do you know 436 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: how crazy I was when I opened it? I mean 437 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: I started screaming at the envelope. There was no one 438 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: in my house at the time. I literally opened it. 439 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: I saw his name on it, and I guess the 440 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 1: two checks were stuck together, you know, because that was 441 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: before there was a direct deposited, So it must have 442 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: been that the paste from one envelope was stuck to 443 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: the other because mine was right underneath it, so of 444 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: course I could see mine and I could see his. 445 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: I'm not sure I knew exactly what mine was in 446 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: relationships till I saw them laying right next to each other. 447 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: I was beside myself, I mean beside myself and what happened. 448 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 1: I tore his check up, and I um, I waited 449 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: for the next clean moment. You know, everything is timing 450 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: in life, really, unfortunately and fortunately, I guess if you 451 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: have a good sense of it, and I, um, I 452 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: waited till there was a kind of upheaval. And every job, 453 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: every so often somebody gets toppled and somebody new comes in. 454 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 1: And when that happened, I went to the new person 455 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: and and said I want to earn more money. I 456 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 1: deserve more money. And I got I didn't have to 457 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: sleep with him, and he was too late. I wasn't 458 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: the sleeping kind anymore, were you afraid? I mean that 459 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: takes a lot of guts, because I had another offer, 460 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: you see, I think that was the main thing, which 461 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: is that I had. Ironically, because things move around in 462 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: media so much, one of my ex bosses was in 463 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: another company and he said, why don't you come over here? 464 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: And that gave me the plus. The upheaval gave me 465 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: the energy to say, well, if they don't do this, 466 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: then I'm out of here. Um so I did it, 467 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: But you know, I leaned forward instead of lying back. 468 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: That should be my book lying back. When you think 469 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: about last year's present financial campaign, do you think sexism 470 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: played a big role in Hillary Clinton's defeat? Probably? Yeah, probably. 471 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: I mean she may not have been the right candidate either. 472 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: I don't know that. I'm not politically that astute. But um, 473 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 1: certainly maybe from a black president to a woman president 474 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: was not a possibility in this country. I don't know that, 475 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: because you know, I voted for her, stood in line 476 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: for two hours, so I can't really answer. Um. But 477 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: the person in front of me on the line was 478 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: voting for Trump, and he was a banker, a nice 479 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: young kids standing a lone, and we got to know 480 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: each other because the line was so long on it, 481 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of around the blog. Did he 482 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 1: say why he was voting for money? He said money. 483 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: He wanted to earn more money. He wanted more money 484 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: to flow into United States. He wanted there to be 485 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: more jobs. He was in the import export banking. I 486 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: really don't remember very much. Mostly we talked about movies, 487 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: you know, and I tried to fix him up. But 488 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: then I realized it was, you know, like twenty five. 489 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: I didn't know anybody that age. So you're like, I am. 490 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: I'm always trying to make it people are. In fact, 491 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 1: I was thinking I should have a match making service. 492 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,880 Speaker 1: That's a good idea because so many people asked me 493 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,199 Speaker 1: to fix them up with people. But let me, let 494 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: me get back to movies. Because you have spent your life, 495 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: well much of your professional life. Sheila focused on on 496 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: making and as I said, supporting great documentaries. What what 497 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: makes a great documentary? When you're looking at all these 498 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 1: now there's such a proliferation of them, Uh, what do 499 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: you say, Like, is there a Is there a criteria? 500 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: For me? There's a criteria. But that doesn't mean I 501 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: don't work on other kinds of docums. I like, um 502 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: people who emerge who you don't know when you start 503 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: the document and at the end you feel as if 504 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: they're in your living room forever. UM. I like docums 505 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: about people who have a hard time getting up and 506 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: through the process of revelation or self revelation in the docu, 507 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: are able to stand again, and that's a metaphor. UM. 508 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: I like wounded people who punch back. To me. That 509 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: makes a great documentary, whether it's in a nook or 510 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: salesman or you know, Harlan County or whatever. I like 511 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: people who are underdogs. UM. I don't like docums particularly, 512 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: I like to watch them. I don't like to work 513 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: particularly on document about well known people or um celebrities 514 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: in any particular field, although I do enjoy watching them. 515 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: And I think they fall under the umbrella of docums. 516 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: You're asking me how I define what is a pleasurable, satisfying, 517 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: emotional work experience since it takes a big chunk out 518 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: of your life, your work, if not your whole life. Um, 519 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: I like the sort of resurrection of the common Man. 520 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: That's my Oh, that's a good title. Nobody would read 521 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: that book. I like that title too. What is there 522 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: one that I know? I hate when people ask me, like, 523 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: your favorite interview? But I mean, what would certainly be 524 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: this one? But but but but what is your favorite documentary? 525 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: Is there one that you think, Wow, if like the 526 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: first sentence of my obituary, if it mentioned this documentary, 527 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: my obituary is going to say, um, New York Times 528 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: best selling author, because I was on the best seller 529 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: list list week Muscle Muzzle, Muzzle one week in a lifetime. 530 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: That's another good title. One week in a lifetime, isn't it? Yeah? 531 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: But that's that that assumes you're only going to be 532 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: on the list for one week and we're gonna be No. 533 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: I think one week is fine. Um? What was I forgot? 534 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: The question? Did you have one that can particularly resonated 535 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: with you? Well? It's not mine. I love the documentary 536 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: by Freedman and Epstein called The Life and Times of 537 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: Harvey Milk because it was the beginning of the gay movement. Really, 538 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: Harvey Milk was. And I thought it was an extraordinary 539 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: documentary that it was killed for being gay? Really um 540 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: in San Francisco, and I thought it was an extraordinarily 541 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: interesting documentary. UM. And you said, you're more interested in 542 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: telling ordinary people's stories over celebrities, And you had so 543 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: many of the HBO documentaries that stick in my mind 544 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: are about famous people, like what like which one? Well, 545 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: the Jerry Wintrobe documentary or the Robert Durst documentary wasn't 546 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: about Durst as much. It was a mystery. Wasn't really 547 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: a celebrity? Do the kids stays in the picture? Was 548 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: that an HBO bought it? And then the Snowden doc 549 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: The Citizen Ford didn't you make that? Yeah, But you're 550 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: using a different kind of word for celebrity. I also 551 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: did Gloria Steinham. I don't consider that a celebrity doc. 552 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,479 Speaker 1: I consider that a movement doc with a celebrity person, 553 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: you know, But Gloria can walk down the street and 554 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: people won't know who she is. You know, Durst can 555 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: steal a sandwich in a supermarket. And you know we're 556 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: not talking about you know, famous Hollywood, famous person. I 557 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: guess what I'm thinking of is is a well known 558 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: person is an entry point to raising broader issues and 559 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: telling a bigger story. But you'll notice that those documents 560 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: are in the last i'd say five to seven years, 561 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: as the market has become much more, much more crowded, 562 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: and the marketing of something has become so incredibly expensive 563 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: and difficult. So the more if you if you can 564 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: get a semi celebrity to cut through the mass of 565 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: stuff to tell a story, you're in You're in much 566 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: better shape. But I still resist it. I mean, I 567 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: still prefer living on the minimum wage, you know, I 568 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: I still prefer that docum. I prefer a class divide 569 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: about the Avenue School on one side and the Elliott 570 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: Housing Project on the other. In the park in the 571 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: middle where both kids play and try to make a basket. Well, 572 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: the kids who can make the basket have been in 573 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: the park much more than they've been in school, and 574 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: the kids who are going to really make the basket 575 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: are in the Avenue school. So the injustice of the 576 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: one percent is a much more interesting film for me 577 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: to make than a celebrity document although I would argue 578 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: that some of those are acquisitions and not things that 579 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: we make from scratch, and there's a difference. And I 580 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: was going to ask you about that, sheield, because that's 581 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: why I kept saying that the documentaries that you produce 582 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: and also support, because in some cases you you buy 583 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: other people's documentaries. And when you do that, do you 584 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: then put your impromontre on it or imper mater I 585 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: never know, But do do you say I'd like to 586 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: buy this and now I'd like to change it? Or 587 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: do you buy it and sort of let it exist? 588 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: As it was? Mostly what we buy, we leave because 589 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: it was good enough to buy, and to lose the 590 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: opportunity to create, then it has to be pretty good 591 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: to begin with. Um. But you know, sometimes the producer 592 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: wants different music, or would like to do it a 593 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: different way, or want some feedback from someone who's experienced right, 594 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: or you know, and sometimes you don't touch anything. We 595 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: didn't touch Citizen four. I mean we learned from Citizen four. 596 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: I learned from Laura all the time. I learned from 597 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: Laura even when they're not our docues. I mean, you 598 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: know she's a teacher. What did you learn from her? 599 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: To be a master's storyteller first and to be politically 600 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: so committed that you make a film that comes from 601 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: your gut, not just another film. I mean, I think 602 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: she's extraordinary filmmaker. A listener called in with the question 603 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: for you about the business of documentary filmmaking, and let's 604 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 1: listen to him. Hey, this is Kevin from California. I'm 605 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: an independent documentary filmmaker and this question is for Sheila. 606 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,280 Speaker 1: As we know, the media industry is changing fast. For example, 607 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: online we've got social media consumers expect content for free content. 608 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: Creators can now reach their audiences directly, and of course, 609 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: with the constant barrage of political news coming from the 610 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: Trump White House, it seems that any other news stories 611 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: and documentary stories just get drowned out. So my question is, 612 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: what do you think the business models of documentary storytelling 613 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: will be in the future. Thanks in the future, in 614 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: the present. I can't predict the future. I'd love to, 615 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 1: but I think that the strange thing happened. We did 616 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: a film called Mommy Dead and Dearest with Aaron Carr 617 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 1: and it's about Munchausen by proxy and this woman who 618 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: tortures her child, and the child eventually kills the mother 619 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: with someone she meets on the internet. And you know, 620 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 1: it's rating really high. We had no marketing. It invaded 621 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: social media in a way that was unknown to us. Uh, 622 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: it got picked up, it became a contagion. It maybe 623 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: because it wasn't about today, maybe because it wasn't about politics, 624 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: maybe because it was a human story. I don't really 625 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 1: know the answer to your question, except that somehow you 626 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: have to cut through everything and say, how can I 627 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: be different? You know, how can I tell a story 628 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: that his heart that nudges the world, that moves it 629 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: a little bit forward, um without being you know, too 630 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: proud about that, but you know, something that has good 631 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: value for humankind, because God knows we need those stories. 632 00:35:55,440 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: How has Netflix changed? I mean, Netflix is you know, 633 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,399 Speaker 1: you could say it's a competitor. On the other hand, 634 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: it's an inspirer. It inspires you to find something that's going. 635 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: I can't buy what Netflix can buy. Don't have the 636 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: the ability to build a library in the way that 637 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: they have made this great reputation, and rightfully so. On 638 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: a library. I have to get them that month to 639 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: pay that bill. So it's very different the search for 640 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:28,800 Speaker 1: what will be stimulating a live hot on fire win Awards. Um, 641 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 1: it's a different it's a different business. Um. But it's 642 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 1: a tough. It's tough, you know. I was going through 643 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: Netflix this weekend because I was looking for I Am 644 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: Not Your Negro, which I haven't seen that great document 645 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: and um and and my husband and I were going 646 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 1: through all the documentaries on Netflix and we're like, we 647 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 1: had never heard of probably seven eighths of those documentaries, 648 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: and we said, it's it's almost it's almost heartbreaking because 649 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 1: I know what goes into putting together a documentary. It's 650 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: years and blood, sweat and tears of people's lives. Well, 651 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 1: if you put it on HBO, you'll know it's on. No, 652 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: you will, because I mean, we don't have the quantity 653 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,359 Speaker 1: and certainly they have quality as well as we do. 654 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: But we we we really push the title. But you 655 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: worry about the documentary, honey, I worry about the rain 656 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: on a sunny day, about the blood of the documentary. 657 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: Of course I do. But in a sense, it's challenging 658 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: because you can do something that cuts through cheez you 659 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: must be good, right. Um, In a sense, there's a 660 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 1: gift that comes with not being able to buy quantity. 661 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: You know. I always remember when I was little, had 662 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: two dresses. Now I have like nine and never know 663 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 1: what to wear. I never had a problem knowing what 664 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: to wear because I only had two choices. So I 665 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,400 Speaker 1: think you become more select when you were selective, I 666 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,439 Speaker 1: should say, when you can only choose a limited number 667 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: of things. When you're not building a library, you're building 668 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 1: a monthly service that people want to subscribe to, and 669 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: you know I want to, you know have So it's different, 670 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 1: different business. It's interesting. I want to bring this conversation 671 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: full circle and just get back to the book one 672 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,439 Speaker 1: more time, because we really want you to be Sheil 673 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: on the New York Times bestseller list more than just 674 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: one week. Um, did I go to that copy for free? Year? 675 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: Did you buy it? No? I I actually got it 676 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: in a gift bag from Literary Literacy Partners. Wasn't that 677 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 1: all full of six people got a book for free? 678 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: I know I was. I always try to get on 679 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: by John. Where did you get yours from? I got 680 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 1: mine from Amazon? Oh? How touching? So getting back to 681 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: your life story, Sheila. Do you you don't really regret 682 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,839 Speaker 1: writing this? I don't regret know what to regret what 683 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: someone said I was older, fat, or stupid? Maybe I am. 684 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: I don't. But if you knew then what you know 685 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: now about the processing book all over again? Absolutely the 686 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 1: same book, with the same characters hiding behind trees, the 687 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: same characters coming up front. I think I would have 688 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 1: punctuated a few things a little better. And you know, 689 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: I wish I could change a few sentences around. But no, 690 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 1: I no regrets. I'm pretty proud of it. How did 691 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 1: I do it? I had a full time job, life, 692 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 1: you know whatever I mean, how did I do it? 693 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: I don't really know. Did you feel did you feel 694 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 1: like you learned about yourself in the process? I mean, 695 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,759 Speaker 1: in other words, that's a very good question. Yes, I 696 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: felt that I learned. I was ashamed of nothing, that 697 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: I had done, nothing that really embarrassed me. That's a 698 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: good feeling, Not a facelift, not sleeping with a boss, 699 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 1: not anything. You know, when I said to my son, 700 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: I want to write about Tourette's and I want to 701 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 1: write about you, is it okay? And he said, yeah, 702 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: if it's truthful. And when I read the poem to 703 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: a very old boyfriend, the anti Semitic poem about what 704 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,280 Speaker 1: his mother had said to me, he said, it's true. 705 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 1: And I was a coward. So how can I regret anything? 706 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't tell any lies, So why would 707 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: I regret I hid behind a few trees, but I 708 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 1: didn't tell any lies. Well, I was very honored to 709 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,439 Speaker 1: be able to read one of the essays. And since 710 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,239 Speaker 1: this is since this is my damn podcast, we're gonna 711 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: we're gonna and Brian sorry, but humor me, We're gonna 712 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,239 Speaker 1: play a little bit of what I read because it 713 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,439 Speaker 1: was so much fun. So this was really about well, 714 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,319 Speaker 1: Sheila set up this essay. It's about technology and kind 715 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: of it's about being alone on a red eye and 716 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: realizing you're the only one with a hardcover book. And 717 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 1: Katie took that part. I've been there, let's listen. So 718 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:29,839 Speaker 1: there I was, in the midst of this now age 719 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: flight reading a hardcover book. It dated me, like saying 720 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: record when you mean MP three or telephone when you 721 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 1: mean cell, but I didn't care. Suddenly, a strange thing 722 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,240 Speaker 1: occurred in the midst of a rather disturbing turbulent bump 723 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 1: my heartcover books eyes opened. I didn't know until that 724 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: very moment that books had eyes. Suddenly tears rolled down 725 00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 1: the book's cover, and the book spoke. I'm over, said, 726 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 1: sobbing done for everything is digital, I'm black and white. 727 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 1: I'm old fashioned print. That was so much fun and 728 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 1: I love the music method acting. By the way, my husband, 729 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,320 Speaker 1: he's going to make so much fun of me because 730 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 1: he says I'm so pretentious because I say rather rather 731 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 1: than rather. But I don't know, Bryan, do you say 732 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: rather or rather? I do too, and I blame you 733 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: for that. Actually, my whole family blames you for that 734 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: because they claimed that before I met you, I said rather. Yeah, 735 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 1: now I say rather, and I don't even think of 736 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,920 Speaker 1: do you say aunt or aunt? I say I say aunt, 737 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: I say aunt? I do? I do assure me with 738 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,799 Speaker 1: everything else, this woman needs help. I need professionals, professional help. Well, 739 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 1: I was thrilled to be one of the readers of 740 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,760 Speaker 1: your wonderful essays, and she'll I'm really happy you wrote 741 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 1: this book, and I loved reading it, and I loved 742 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,320 Speaker 1: talking to you about it, and I love talking to 743 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: you about it, and I loved you reading it. When 744 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:05,479 Speaker 1: you left, everybody said she's quite an actress. Really took 745 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: the book to heart, Philip, Thank you, Thank you, Thanks 746 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 1: as always to our producer Gianna Palmer and to our 747 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:19,240 Speaker 1: intrepid sound engineer Jared O'Connell. Thanks also to social media 748 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: guru Alison Bresnik and to Emily Beina for her part 749 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 1: in producing the show. Thanks as well to our engineer 750 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: Ryan in Los Angeles, and to Nora Richie for her 751 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 1: additional editorial assistance. Brian, I have to interrupt because you're 752 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,719 Speaker 1: sounding particularly racipe today. Brian has a little bit of 753 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: a cold, so that's why he sounds like a male 754 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,720 Speaker 1: Brenda for Carro. Right now, I would like to thank 755 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,400 Speaker 1: Mark Phillips for our theme music and also plug Alert. 756 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: Mark makes music under the artist named Sono Otto. His 757 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,160 Speaker 1: new full length album is called Inheritance and it's out now, 758 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,880 Speaker 1: which reminds me. I don't think I sang during this podcast, Brian, 759 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:05,319 Speaker 1: and if I knew, can you think of Inheritance? I 760 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 1: have no idea anyway. That was beautiful. Thank you. Katie 761 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 1: Kirk and I are the executive producers of this podcast, 762 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:13,839 Speaker 1: and if you'd like to get in touch you can 763 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,319 Speaker 1: leave us a voicemail at nine to nine two two 764 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 1: four four six three seven, and don't forget to call 765 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,800 Speaker 1: in with your questions from Matt Walsh. You can also 766 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,400 Speaker 1: email us at comments at correct podcast dot com. You 767 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 1: can find me on social media at Katie Couric on 768 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,320 Speaker 1: Twitter and Instagram, Katie dot Curric on Snapchat, and Brian 769 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,840 Speaker 1: is goldsmith be on Twitter. You definitely should follow Brian 770 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 1: because he's a lot more opinionated than I am. And hey, 771 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 1: if you like our show, please let the world know 772 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 1: by rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcasts, and don't 773 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 1: forget to subscribe as well. Thank you so much for listening, Brian, 774 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 1: tell our nice listeners goodbye, Asta luego a revoir. Talk 775 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 1: to you next time.