Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: Anthony Blincoln has about a month left as US Secretary
Speaker 2: of State, and he's been racing around the world for meetings.
Speaker 3: Whether it's Cutter, whether it's Egypt, whether it's Turkey, where
Speaker 3: I was just last week.
Speaker 2: Blincoln was there to talk about Syria and the wider
Speaker 2: Middle East. He's also keeping tabs on Ukraine and the
Speaker 2: fallout from recent no confidence votes in Europe. Blincoln spent
Speaker 2: Thursday in New York at the United Nations. He's been
Speaker 2: busy at a crucial moment, the run up to the
Speaker 2: transfer of power from President Biden to President elect Trump.
Speaker 3: I want to be able to hand off to the
Speaker 3: incoming administration the best possible hand to play in all
Speaker 3: of these areas, in all of these challenges, because the
Speaker 3: world doesn't stop just because we're in a political transition.
Speaker 2: Thursday morning, I sat down with Blincoln in Bloomberg's New
Speaker 2: York headquarters to get the latest news from the Middle
Speaker 2: East and to have him reflect on his ten you're
Speaker 2: at the State Department and share his outlook.
Speaker 1: Let's get that conversation that we promised to you.
Speaker 3: Joining us now with David Gera, the US Secretary of
Speaker 3: State Anthony Blincoln.
Speaker 1: What it to you?
Speaker 2: Thank you very much and welcome to our audience on
Speaker 2: Bloomberg Radio and Bloomberg Television worldwide.
Speaker 1: Mister Secretary, thank you very much for being here. Good
Speaker 1: to be with you.
Speaker 2: Last week I had a similar conversation with another member
Speaker 2: of President Biden's cabinet, Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen. Part of
Speaker 2: it was live on television, but we kept the conversation
Speaker 2: going when the camera's cut away. This is the big
Speaker 2: take from Bloomberg News. I'm David Gerra, and today on
Speaker 2: the show, the seventy first Secretary of State Anthony Blincoln
Speaker 2: on what's ahead in the Middle East and Ukraine and
Speaker 2: how he's preparing the State Department for new leadership. Let's
Speaker 2: start with Syria, and you've described this moment as one
Speaker 2: of both promise and peril.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 2: You have what seems like a de facto government that
Speaker 2: is a designated terrorist group, and you've said that the
Speaker 2: US has been in contact with HDS. What specifically have
Speaker 2: they said, I know there are other groups operating in
Speaker 2: the country as well. What have they said about how
Speaker 2: they might govern?
Speaker 3: What we've heard them say is positive. The question is
Speaker 3: what are they actually going to do. We brought together
Speaker 3: with Jordan, countries from around the region last week and
Speaker 3: we came together to set expectations. What is the international community,
Speaker 3: what are the neighbors looking for as this transition takes
Speaker 3: place in Syria? And we all agreed we want to
Speaker 3: see something that's inclusive, that's non sectarian, that respects minorities, women,
Speaker 3: that deals with any chemical weapons that may be remaining
Speaker 3: in Syria, that doesn't aly with ISIS or any of
Speaker 3: the terrorist groups through are there. And the reason that's
Speaker 3: so important is we want to make it clear to
Speaker 3: HTS and all of the emerging authorities that the recognition
Speaker 3: that they seek, the support that they seek a need
Speaker 3: from the international community. Well, there's certain expectations that come
Speaker 3: along with that. What everyone is focused on is what's
Speaker 3: actually happening on the ground.
Speaker 1: What are they doing.
Speaker 3: Are they working to build a transition in Syria that
Speaker 3: brings everyone in. If they do that, and if they
Speaker 3: meet some of these other tests that the international community
Speaker 3: is looking for them to meet, then I think you
Speaker 3: can see something very positive.
Speaker 2: I look at this country that has a lot of
Speaker 2: sanctions that are residual a lot of sanctions have been
Speaker 2: in place for decades on Syria. Senator Chris Murphy of
Speaker 2: Connecticut has called for a temporary suspension of sanctions. Is
Speaker 2: that something that you would be amenable to and would
Speaker 2: that be effective in helping you have more engagement with
Speaker 2: what may be this new government.
Speaker 3: So we're looking at all the authorities we have. We're
Speaker 3: looking at all of the sanctions, not only our own.
Speaker 3: The United Nations has sanctions on HTS.
Speaker 1: It's leader.
Speaker 3: And I think what we need to see is actual
Speaker 3: concrete steps building an inclusive, non sectarian government, a transition
Speaker 3: eventually getting to an election. As we see these steps taken,
Speaker 3: then I think we'll be able to respond, others will
Speaker 3: be able to respond.
Speaker 2: There's been a lot of speculation that a ceasefire deal
Speaker 2: could come together. When President Biden spoke about the deal
Speaker 2: between Israel and has Belat, he was asked at the end,
Speaker 2: do you think you can get a ceasefire deal by
Speaker 2: the end of your tenure? So he's hoping and praying.
Speaker 2: Is there anything that's happened that gives more grounds for
Speaker 2: hope than prayer going forward?
Speaker 3: Here there is, and the reality is we should logically
Speaker 3: be able to get this. And I say that with
Speaker 3: all the caution that comes with that statement, because we've
Speaker 3: been very close before, and we've had these Lucy in
Speaker 3: the football moments where you're just ready to kick the
Speaker 3: football and Lucy pulls it away. But what's changed is this,
Speaker 3: Hamas knows that the cavalry is not coming to the rescue.
Speaker 3: For months and months, it hoped it would get a
Speaker 3: wider war with Hezbollah, with Iran, with Iranian aligned groups
Speaker 3: coming in and creating more problems from Israel on more
Speaker 3: fronts and helping Hamas endure.
Speaker 1: We now know that's not happening.
Speaker 3: They know it's not happening because of the very important
Speaker 3: work that was done with us and with others dealing
Speaker 3: with the unprecedented Iranian attacks on Israel, dealing with Hezbollah.
Speaker 3: So I think that's concentrated minds among Hamas on the need.
Speaker 1: To complete the steal.
Speaker 3: Having said that, it's always incredibly fraud and it's very
Speaker 3: hard to get decisions made, it's hard to communicate, and
Speaker 3: for all of those reasons, even as close as it is,
Speaker 3: it can still move in.
Speaker 1: The other direction.
Speaker 3: We've all been fanning out, working with all of the
Speaker 3: different partners who can make a difference and who may
Speaker 3: have some leverage with communications with Hamas, whether it's Cutter,
Speaker 3: whether it's Egypt, whether it's Turkey, where I was just
Speaker 3: last week. The fundamental question right now is is Hamas
Speaker 3: finally prepared to say yes? And if it does, we
Speaker 3: get the hostages back, we get a ceasefire, we get
Speaker 3: an immediate dramatic improvement in the lives of Palestinian children,
Speaker 3: women and men who've been caught in this horrible crossfire
Speaker 3: since October seventh of Hamas is making if they really
Speaker 3: purport to care about the Palestinian people, they will say
Speaker 3: yes and do it.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: Let me ask you about that horrible crossfire, and it's
Speaker 2: something that you've written about in a recent essay for
Speaker 2: Foreign Affair, is the fact that millions have been displaced,
Speaker 2: tens of thousands have been killed, Gaza has been kind
Speaker 2: of reduced to rubble.
Speaker 1: You've made twelve trips to the region.
Speaker 2: How much regret do you have that kind of sustained
Speaker 2: level of humanitarian aid hasn't made it into Gaza over
Speaker 2: the course of this conflict.
Speaker 3: You know, from day one, we've tried to do several
Speaker 3: things going back to October seventh. First to stand resolute
Speaker 3: with Israel, to try to make sure that October seventh
Speaker 3: would never happen again. Second to prevent this war from
Speaker 3: going wider, because if that happened, if other fronts opened up,
Speaker 3: whether it was with Iran, whether it was with Hezbolah,
Speaker 3: these other groups, more death, more destruction, and it would
Speaker 3: probably prolong what was going on in Gaza. And three
Speaker 3: to do whatever we could to make sure that people
Speaker 3: in Gaza were getting the assistance they need, We're getting
Speaker 3: the protections they need, and we have been on this
Speaker 3: virtually every single day, and we've seen moments when more
Speaker 3: assistance was getting through. Then we've seen moments where where
Speaker 3: it's ebbed and flowed. But this has a dramatic effect
Speaker 3: on the lives and livelihoods of people in Gaza. The
Speaker 3: last week or ten days there has been a noticeable improvement,
Speaker 3: but we've seen that before and then we've seen it
Speaker 3: fall off. The best way to finally deal with the
Speaker 3: needs of the people would be down in the conflict,
Speaker 3: would be to get the ceasefire, to get the hostages home.
Speaker 3: That's the best play because you have an environment that
Speaker 3: is unique, you have a population that's trapped in Gase.
Speaker 3: It doesn't have any where to go. In most other conflicts,
Speaker 3: people they can become refugees. That's not a good thing,
Speaker 3: but it's better than being caught in the middle of
Speaker 3: a hot war. And also you have an enemy in
Speaker 3: the case of Hamas that's fully enmeshed with the civilian
Speaker 3: population living in and under buildings, apartment buildings, schools, mosques, hospitals.
Speaker 3: That doesn't obviate at all the responsibility that Israel has
Speaker 3: to try to ensure that assistance gets to people who
Speaker 3: need it and that people are protected as best possible.
Speaker 3: And look, we've been working very hard to make sure
Speaker 3: that as best we can we actually start to implement
Speaker 3: plans for a better future for the region, or if
Speaker 3: we don't have time to fully do that, to be
Speaker 3: able to hand them off, not just getting the hostage
Speaker 3: and cease fire deal, but having a clear plan for
Speaker 3: what follows, a day after plan for Gaza, so that
Speaker 3: there's no vacuum that Hamas can refill, that Israel can
Speaker 3: pull out, and you can have Gaza stand up forwards people, administration, security, reconstruction.
Speaker 3: We have done an extraordinary amount of work carrying through
Speaker 3: what President Trump started with the Abraham Accords to get
Speaker 3: normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia, which would be the
Speaker 3: biggest game changer in the region. All of that is
Speaker 3: ready to be handed over to the new administration and
Speaker 3: hopefully they'll carry the ball forward.
Speaker 1: You mentioned that normalization deal.
Speaker 2: It with something this administration invested a lot in before
Speaker 2: October seventh. Clear that the conversations has been going on.
Speaker 2: There has been reporting that we're close to a breakthrough.
Speaker 2: There can you shed any lightns ser of where those
Speaker 2: conversations stand today.
Speaker 3: So one of the things I look back on is
Speaker 3: on October tenth, a year ago, I was supposed to
Speaker 3: go to Saudi Arabia and to Israel to work on
Speaker 3: the Palestinian component of this normalization deal. And of course
Speaker 3: that trip didn't happen because of October seven. But even
Speaker 3: with Gaza, we've continued these conversations. We've continued this work,
Speaker 3: and in terms of the agreements that are needed between
Speaker 3: the United States and Saudi Arabia, they're pretty much ready
Speaker 3: to go, and that would then trigger the normalization between
Speaker 3: Israel and Saudi Arabia. But two things are required to
Speaker 3: actually get that done. One is an end to the
Speaker 3: conflict in Gaza. And two is having a credible pathway
Speaker 3: toward a Palestinian state. As I said, all of the
Speaker 3: work's been done, and hopefully we'll get to that end
Speaker 3: of conflict in Gaza. They'll have to engage the conversation
Speaker 3: on answering the Palestinian question, but the work is there,
Speaker 3: and if that happens, this transforms the region. You have
Speaker 3: Israel that's integrated in the region. There's a common security
Speaker 3: architecture to deal with Iran. We saw that something we
Speaker 3: put together embryonically. When Iran attacked Israel in an unprecedented
Speaker 3: way direct attack, we not only for the first time,
Speaker 3: participated in Israel's active defense, we brought other countries, including
Speaker 3: countries in the region, into that defense. So you can
Speaker 3: see what's possible in the future. But it requires an
Speaker 3: end of the conflict in Gaza, and it requires moving
Speaker 3: forward on the Palestinians coming up.
Speaker 2: As President Elect Trump readies for his return to the
Speaker 2: White House, he and his closest aids are already meeting
Speaker 2: with world leaders to discuss policy. How the Secretary of
Speaker 2: State is navigating that After the break on Wednesday, Secretary
Speaker 2: of State Anthony Blinkoln's down with Senator Marco Rubio, who
Speaker 2: is President elect Trump's pick to succeed b.
Speaker 1: Lincoln.
Speaker 2: I asked the secretary how he's navigating. What is a
Speaker 2: unique transition You've said of this new administration, you want
Speaker 2: it passed the baton to them so they can get
Speaker 2: off and running. Forgive me, but it does seem like
Speaker 2: they are off and running. You had President Electrump meeting
Speaker 2: in France with President Zelensky, President Macron, He's met with
Speaker 2: Prime Minister Trudeau in Florida. His destiny to be the
Speaker 2: special onboard the Middle East has been in the region
Speaker 2: as well. Does that complicate the work that you are doing.
Speaker 3: Look, there's one president at the time, one administration at
Speaker 3: a time, but we're in very close contact with the
Speaker 3: incoming administration.
Speaker 2: I spent a couple of tiles Field novel though, and
Speaker 2: mean we used to talk about the logan action. It
Speaker 2: does feel like these are different circumstances.
Speaker 1: Look, I think there are a few things.
Speaker 3: I think there are a few things going on. First,
Speaker 3: as they said, we've been in very close contact with
Speaker 3: the incoming administration. I've spent a lot of time with
Speaker 3: Senator Rubio, and Jake Salton, the National Security Advisor, with
Speaker 3: Mike Waltz, his successor. We've had very good not only conversations,
Speaker 3: but we're trying to make sure that we're as coordinated
Speaker 3: as possible so that they know what we're looking at
Speaker 3: doing in the remaining time that we have. I want
Speaker 3: to be able to hand off to the incoming administration
Speaker 3: the best possible hand to play in all of these areas,
Speaker 3: in all of these challenges. Because the world doesn't stop
Speaker 3: just because we're in a political transition. It's also normal
Speaker 3: that countries around the world want to hear from the
Speaker 3: incoming administration. They want to know what they can expect
Speaker 3: so they can get ready for that. As long as
Speaker 3: we're communicating closely, which we are, and as long as
Speaker 3: we're working to again try to make this handoff as
Speaker 3: effective as possible so that they can get moving on
Speaker 3: the run because there's really no time to wait, then
Speaker 3: I think that's a good thing.
Speaker 2: Two more questions, the first of which is about Ukraine
Speaker 2: at this stage, what you think Vladimir Putin is fighting for.
Speaker 2: Is it to keep the land that he's taken, Is
Speaker 2: it with the hope that he could get more land?
Speaker 2: Or it's about something else entirely Is it about Ukraine's
Speaker 2: sovereignty its relationship with the West, And if it's the latter,
Speaker 2: how does that complicate potential piece talks when indeed they happen.
Speaker 3: Look, Putin's had an imperial project for a long time,
Speaker 3: and of course, first it started really close to home
Speaker 3: with Chechnia many years ago, Georgia in eight Ukraine, the
Speaker 3: first go round twenty fourteen, Ukraine, the second go around
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, and in his mind is the recreation
Speaker 3: of a greater Russia. And you don't have to believe me,
Speaker 3: just read what he said. He's been very clear about it.
Speaker 3: He's failed in Ukraine. That proposition that he could erase
Speaker 3: Ukraine from the map subsume it into Russia has failed.
Speaker 3: And that's a result of the incredible courage of the
Speaker 3: Ukrainian people. But it's also a result of the dozens
Speaker 3: of countries that we rallied in defense of Ukraine to
Speaker 3: make sure that they could repel this Russian aggression, prevent
Speaker 3: the takeover if Kiev pushed the Russians back. And now
Speaker 3: you have a front line that moves a little bit,
Speaker 3: but probably won't move that much from where it is.
Speaker 3: It would be good, I think if we could get
Speaker 3: to ceasefire, if that's where the Ukrainians want to go.
Speaker 3: But it has to be one that is just and durable,
Speaker 3: And for it to be durable, you've got to have
Speaker 3: some assurances built in that Russia can't simply rest refit
Speaker 3: and then reattack. The pressure that we've exerted with sanctions,
Speaker 3: with export controls is building and building. It's a heavier
Speaker 3: and heavier weight on Russia. Everything that they try to
Speaker 3: do takes longer, it's harder to do and costs more.
Speaker 3: I think he wants to get out from under that yoke,
Speaker 3: but I don't think he's going to give up on
Speaker 3: his imperial ambitions. And so you have to make sure
Speaker 3: that whatever results, if President Trump is able to bring
Speaker 3: this to a landing of some kind, that it's one
Speaker 3: that will endure, and that means necessary assurances that Ukraine
Speaker 3: has what it takes to deter future Russian aggression.
Speaker 2: Lastly, you are such a spokesman and evangelist for multilateralism.
Speaker 2: We talk a lot about the importance of alliances, and
Speaker 2: we're at this prespice where the incoming administration seems to
Speaker 2: give that less difference than you. How confident are you
Speaker 2: in the endurance of alliances? Be they sort of the
Speaker 2: big multilateral ones, G seven, G twenty, smaller groups that
Speaker 2: you've sort of fostered and grown over the course, if
Speaker 2: you're a tenure, are they well buffeted enough that you
Speaker 2: think they'll continue no matter what.
Speaker 3: Look, I believe as long as they continue to demonstrate
Speaker 3: their value to the United States, they will endure, and
Speaker 3: I'm convinced that they will.
Speaker 1: Look, there are two things that.
Speaker 3: We know, or at least that I believe, and that
Speaker 3: we've tried to put in practice. One is, there's no
Speaker 3: substitute for US engagement in US leadership around the world,
Speaker 3: because if we're not doing it, chances are someone else is,
Speaker 3: and probably not in a way that reflects our own interests,
Speaker 3: our own values, or maybe just as bad no one is,
Speaker 3: And then you get a vacuum. It's filled by bad
Speaker 3: things before it's filled with good things, and inevitably those
Speaker 3: come back to bite us. But the flip side of
Speaker 3: that coin is just as important. Pretty much everything that
Speaker 3: we're trying to do around the world that benefits the
Speaker 3: American people, because that's our job is better achieved if
Speaker 3: we're working with others, if we're cooperating, if we're coordinating,
Speaker 3: even the United States simply can't get the job done alone.
Speaker 3: And that's where our alliances and partnerships come in. You know,
Speaker 3: It's interesting to me we've built over the last four
Speaker 3: years much greater convergence among European countries, countries in the
Speaker 3: Indo Pacific, and US on how to approach the challenges
Speaker 3: posed by China, probably the most consequential relationship that we have,
Speaker 3: and many of these countries have. We're now on the
Speaker 3: same page. And the reason I know that that's working
Speaker 3: is every time I meet with my Chinese counterpart long E,
Speaker 3: he spends usually half an hour forty five minutes at
Speaker 3: the top of the meeting complaining about everything we've done
Speaker 3: to align these countries. And it's not about containing China
Speaker 3: or holding China down. It's about dealing with the real
Speaker 3: problems that we have with China and that are affecting
Speaker 3: the lives of our people. We're much more effective in
Speaker 3: changing the policies that a country like China pursues, or
Speaker 3: any other country with whom we have a challenging relationship.
Speaker 3: I think that value proposition is real and it's clear.
Speaker 3: And last thing, you look at what we've been able
Speaker 3: to do in Ukraine. Yes, we've devoted a lot of
Speaker 3: resources to that, about one hundred billion dollars, although most
Speaker 3: of that was spent in the United States to build
Speaker 3: the necessary weapons for Ukraine, good American jobs. As a result,
Speaker 3: we've done hundred million dollars. Our allies and partners one
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty billion dollars.
Speaker 1: We've had real burden sharing.
Speaker 3: They've picked up the load, and I think as we
Speaker 3: go forward, we've now have allies and partners doing more
Speaker 3: than they've ever done before. As long as other countries
Speaker 3: are demonstrating that they're picking up their share, I think
Speaker 3: these alliances and partnerships will endure. It's our comparative advantage.
Speaker 3: We're the only country in the world that has these
Speaker 3: alliances and partnerships that are voluntary, that are based on
Speaker 3: shared interests, shared values.
Speaker 1: So for me, it's.
Speaker 3: Really been one of the secrets to our success around
Speaker 3: the world, and I think incoming administration hopefully we'll see
Speaker 3: that and continue that.
Speaker 2: Thank you again, nice to speak with you, great to
Speaker 2: do with you.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: This is the big take from Bloomberg News. I'm David
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